Scandal, “The Warrior.” For Mr. ReddHedd who had (has?) a huge crush on Patti Smyth…
At what point do major media outlets wake up and realize that the Bush WH sees them as a bunch of easily manipulated pets in toothless “bi-partisan” sheep’s clothing? Via Jay Rosen:
When Goldsmith suggested going to Congress, he thought he was expanding White House power by adding hugely to its legitimacy without sacrificing much at all. But this is where the radical part in the Cheney project emerged. The very act of seeking broader legitimacy diminished the president’s power, giving it away, according to Cheney and Addington….
Addington once expressed his general attitude toward accommodation when he said, “We’re going to push and push and push until some larger force makes us stop.”…
…Goldsmith points out how great a departure was made under this president.
The Bush administration has operated on an entirely different concept of power that relies on minimal deliberation, unilateral action, and legalistic defense. This approach largely eschews politics: the need to explain, to justify, to convince, to get people on board, to compromise.
…You can’t run a press system that assumes the President feels a need to explain himself to the nation when the White House is running a system in which no such need is felt. Just one of the many ways in which by declining to develop a more savage narrative the press failed to figure out what was happening to itself under Bush. (emphasis mine)
As Atrios pointed out yesterday, the failure to recognize Bush’s tossing normative ethics to the wolves also applies to politicians and their staffers. You simply have to look at a single voting misstep — the Southwick fiasco — to see where the “trust in the ethical core of the GOP” gets them.
GOP leadership’s sole focus is consolidating power and forcing through ideological extremism, but they will dress it up in pretty words and fake hurt when you call them on it. Any lie, any manipulative process, any means whatsoever is justified if it gets them what they want. As Digby says, “They are not seeking to create a new constitutional order because of some philosophical belief. They are seeking it solely in order that they maintain their power.”
Transparency is important, but so is a hefty helping of skepticism. As Dan Froomkin so aptly put it last year, you cannot be too skeptical of people in authority. Consider this lesson one for journalists and active citizens of all stripes.
As a lawyer, I learned not to take anything my clients said at face value — there was either evidence to back it up, or it was treated with healthy skepticism. Why? Because human beings have a habit of saying whatever it takes to get their asses out of hot water, and they sometimes lie or shade the truth to make themselves look better. You think presidents and politicians are any different from your average con man?
Perhaps it is too much to ask that the Beltway press (with a few admirable exceptions) admit they have been rode hard and put away wet. The vaunted fourth estate has been had like a bunch of hayseed rubes in a slick city game of three card monty run by a President in a PR codpiece. (And so has the political establishment on whom real oversight and accountability depend.) I used to think it was a sort of battered press syndrome — now I see it as a sort of symbiotic ratings relationship, playing along with false PR narratives like a pack of hyenas scavanging scraps left by a maurauding predator. No real work required to keep feeding the beasts.
You wonder why I get up every morning and blog? Because that has to stop.



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Good morning Christy
Good morning Christy.
Hello, Christy!
Morning all. How’s tricks?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 5
It was pretty good until I clicked the link to Taylor Marsh’ piece.
That Commander and his Codpiece was a bit much this early.
‘Scuse me while I go find some brain bleach.
BushCo: the return of Niccolo Machiavelli.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 5
Please ask Bush…*g*
Good morning, Christy!
Thanks for outing the poodles.
Hope this is a good Friday for you and the Peanut (and Mr. Redd)
This is how long it takes to make a sign:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMyQlQZyZqE
that’s how I can make so many of them.
Amen.
I am so damn grateful you wake up every morning and blog.
Gannon’s come back?
Flatbackers!
No prosecution for the child predator.
http://www.democraticundergrou…..15;2990845
I have seen the press do this for years — with much horror. Now, it is rather humerous. I mean, I have to laugh to keep from screaming.
The funniest is Chrissie Matthews. Now, he goes from side to side — unable to figure out WHAT is going on. It is funny, but sad, too.
The War President loves his little war doesn’t he?
I didn’t hear the speech last night but did read the text later. If this was a dollege level essay he would have gotten maybe a C- for its rambling. The logic isn’t really there but since it has never been there I guess that doesn’t matter.
At what point do major media outlets wake up and realize that the Bush WH sees them as a bunch of easily manipulated pets in toothless “bi-partisan” sheep’s clothing?
For crying out loud, christy, I know the “advertise liberally” crowd refuses to acknowledge the structural bias in the MSM, but this is really ridiculous?
So the corrupt gang of criminals that cannot competently manage anything else is somehow “leading” the MSM and the poor fool “journalists” are somehow “victims” because they are being used?
I know you can do better than that. We cannot possibly create positive change without acknowledging that we are up against political forces that extend beyond the pResident and his band of thieves.
Not possible to inform the public when we refuse to acknowledge some basic facts ourselves.
I haven’t read this yet, but Mark Morford of the SF Chronicle is usually a good read:
“You think presidents and politicians are any different from your average con man?”
Great post Christie. And a con man is exactly what Bush is. If his daddy (another con man) had not been president of the US, junior would no doubt be involved in some slick investment scheme bilking seniors out of their money.
Come to think of it, he is involved in a slick investment scheme bilking ALL of us out of our money.
randi rhodes hit’s it right on the head christy, we need spend our resources imploring the roots to call republican politicians
the democrats are already on our side, the republicans are not and they are the ones that need to hear from their constitutuents
yes, we need to keep calling the progressives but we really need to redirect our efforts toward the republicans
they do want to get re elected and they will do whatever it takes to improve their chances
I don’t even tell them I am not a republican when I call
Christie writes:
There’s another reason to be skeptical. People just get things wrong. If they don’t apply the proper amount of skepticism, or don’t do the research necessary, they can be as wrong about what they’re saying as they would if they were lying their butts off. And while they’re saying whatever nonsense they’re saying, they’ll sound perfectly believable, because they think it’s the the truth. I’m always skeptical of claims people make without presenting evidence on that basis alone.
Hi, could we keep the conversation going about a General Strike? Yes, I’d be totally in favor of health care services being totally exempted from striking. My own father is dependent on consistent medical care. I don’t think that anyone calling for a general strike would want people to suffer from lack of medical care. However, that doesn’t mean that people working for large or small corporations shouldn’t take a day off. How much does it hurt even a small employer to close down for a day? (In fact, the small mom and pop operation should close voluntarily in order to support the general strike.) Every time there’s a snow day, there are certain people allowed to go to work – so it would be for a general strike. I don’t understand why people are getting caught up in this health detail, which of course is important but is pretty easily solved. The only really effective statement, short of waiting until 2008 (and 2009 is a really long time away) is doing something en masse that makes an economic impact. Please read the article by Garret Keizer in Harpers and at least keep the discussion going.
Speaking of battered press syndrome:
I’m sure Timmeh (Mr. Potato-head) can’t wait to be ridden haggard by the BushCo machine on Meet the Press this coming Sunday.
perris @ 19
The Democrats don’t act like they are on our side.
perris @ 19
Agreed. I often call Rethugs. Frequently enough, I’m calling other states – as my contingent (from VT) is usually on the right page. I find 50% of the time, I am not asked whether I’m a constituent. I don’t lie, but I speak as if I am a disappointed rethug constituent, and I’m Worried for party, and I’m concerned that the rethug party is being led in a losing direction.
Diane – There is still a lively discussion going on in the previous thread, and you should keep OnTopic in this one.
Thanks.
Keith Olbermann and perhaps Rachel Maddow are the only real skeptics on cable teevee these days. There are no skeptics on broadcast network teevee.
Good morning, Christy! Yes, this must stop. I used to think the immovable force that would push Boosh back would be congress; increasingly it appears it has to be the people. Provided we’re not all locked down first, I suppose. Gah! Keep up the good work…
Diane @ 21
Too many of us can’t afford that kind of action.
Too many of us don’t have the time available, because time off from work is money we won’t have for food and rent and transportation.
Too many of us are contingent workers or can be fired for any reason our bosses can get past the corporate lawyers.
Biodun @ 27
P.e.r.s.o.n.a.l. I.n.t.e.g.r.i.t.y.
littlebear at 17 — What part of symbiotic relationship did you not comprehend? It takes two to tango on that one, and the media are certainly doing the shuffle right along with the Bush Administration.
Try reading the whole article before you let fly at me, would you?
I WISH it was becuase they were had…sadly, that’s not why the fourth estate has become a tool of the administration
the reason they are a tool of the administration is the fact that they have consolidated ownership, are corporate owned with corporate agenda
that’s the reason, not because they have been conned
perris @ 20
I’d say we need to call DINO’s as well as Rethugs.
I got plenty of Rethug Congresscritters here, I email ‘em all the time. My senators are largely OK (well I’m forever emailing DiFi to implore her not to be so stupid, but…) but the Reps, not so much. (Think Orange County Curtain.)
Diane @ 22
I thought a general strike was already called for on 9/11.
rwcole @ 25
Won’t be any impeachment- unless Clusterfuck gets a blow job.
I have done a survey of friends. I have asked friends if they would step up to the plate and do what they have to do to get Bush or Cheney impeached. Lots of true Patriots out there, people willing to sacrifice and do their duty. More straight men than straight women willing to “step up to the plate”. That is according to my survey.
Bustednuckles @ 30
Matthews hammered many of the neo-cons before the invasion. Olbermann jumped on
G’mornin’ Christy, great post. (Although I guess it’s not morning your time…)
Howie just fixed a great Howie breakfast and says “hi.”
I agree wholeheartedly, Christy. Never assume!
This is OT, but Think Progress has some horrifying stats on what Bush’s new “plan” will cost: 12,000 more lives, 80,000 more wounded and well over a trillion dollars by 2017. Tell everyone you know, including our Democrats in the Beltway bubble. Maybe if we all start speaking the truth every time Bush lies, we’ll get somewhere.
And I still think this is the funniest, wittiest smackdown of MSM right in front of a clueless BushCo and Beltway journalists:
On YouTube: Stephen Colbert at the White House Correspondents Dinner in 2006.
Kathleen @ 34
Who was it last night who said “close your eyes and think of the Constitution”?
Jane at 37 — Ooooh, Howie breakfast. Probably something nummy. (she says, enviously sipping her coffee…) Hugs to the both of you.
Although I’ve been admonished not to talk about a general strike on this thread, I will answer the people who’ve mentioned it.
As to people who cannot afford it, certainly there ARE some who can’t. And obviously people need to assess their own situation and determine that. And yes, some people were calling for a general strike on September 11, but lots of people objected to that date because it is a memorial day and too frought with emotion.
Please read the article by Garret Keizer. It is a persuasive article as to why there should be a general strike on November 6. Let’s not get sidetracked by people objecting on the basis of emergency services, etc. If you work in healthcare, or your family is going to suffer because you can’t get the time off work, then no, don’t strike. But if you’re like many Americans who could take a sick day or a day off without the world coming to an end in any way, then try to see whether you can do so on November 6.
So Mr. Redd loves a warrior woman, eh?
CHS….Both Matthews and Olbermann had many pieces about Brittany’s bad dancing. Actually Olbermann had more on about this garbage.
Not one mention on either program about the two soldiers who were part of the group of seven who wrote the New York Time op-ed piece and were killed on Monday. Not one mention of the third soldier out of the seven who was shot in the head. Now what is the chance of three of seven of these brave soldiers who wrote that op-ed dying or being shot within three weeks of one another?
Not a mention of Iaea’s El Baradei walking out of a meeting focused on Iran/
Brittany trumped these issues.
Kathleen @ 35:
So you’re a Tweety fan?
Britney Spears…
IIRC, Keith mentioned the deaths of those two soldiers on Countdown. I’ll dig up a transcript when available.
Grouch Potato @ 11
I second that e-motion.
In about fourteen months we will have a new president elect.
Clusterfuck is gettin lamer by the minute- but he still has enough gooper support to keep his favorite war goin until he leaves office.
Nothin much is goin to happen until he does. Dems certainly can’t get their agenda through- and the goopers certainly can’t get anything done either except for blocking.
We may be down to “wait out the clock” and start pushing for candidates that can make a difference. This one’s bout over.
Biodun @ 45
I can’t stand some of his questions, his persistent interruptions and his “past” fixation on the Clintons and whether Hillary was “warm and cozy” enough.
But Matthews has consistently pounded the war pushers with tough questions, Started way earlier than Olberman
Yes!
I’m probably too optimistic here, but personal expediency – the only thing the media puppets care about – may be the tool to force change upon them.
US megacorps finally caved in and joined the boycott against South Africa’s apartheid regime not because of external protest, but because of internal comfort – the directors wanted to enjoy their dinners.
With spouses (almost always wives) and teenagers/adult children badgering them about the boycott at home, the corporate directors dropped the pretense they had to stay in SA “for the shareholders” and got out for their own domestic health.
These media queens (both genders) are so transparently narcissistic: they require massive approval simply to feel OK.
And they live in two very small geographic regions: rich Beltway and uber-rich Manhattan.
Their faces are well known, and they are easy and appropriate targets for public discussion – every place they go.
Every time they step on the street.
And hitting them through disapproval and conflict in their social networks will be even more devastating for the very fragile self-esteem.
With public faces, they have no place to hide. I’d love to see widespread postering (recycled paper with organic wheatpaste, natch) with wanted posters for blocks around each pundit’s home.
Want to stop the war?
Tell Tom Friedman to stop the lies?
Want to stop the killing in Iraq?
Tell Cokie Roberts to quit lying about it.
Big nasty font. Big ugly face pics.
In front of their primary homes, vacation homes, parents’ homes.
No place to hide for the media war servants.
When they can’t hide at dinner, they’ll roll over.
Narcissists are weak.
CNN headline news ‘poll of the day’ for yesterday was ‘Do you feel sorry for britney spears?’
CNN – The most trusted name in
newsgossipLooks like their sending in the head of the FBI to make sure Gonzales really leaves. Via TPM:
Today at 3 PM, Alberto Gonzales will speak at his farewell ceremony at the Department of Justice. In addition to the dwindling number of remaining Department officials who haven’t resigned, a coterie of law enforcement officials, such as FBI Director Robert Mueller will be there to see him out the door.
The Lurking Mod @ 26
have the rules changed? i thought OT was ok, except in the case of guest poster or special posts like book salon and blue america?
…. i could have easily missed the rule change, so just checking if that is the case. thanks.
Biodun @ 39
A person can get high watching this. I have many times. Colbert “bitch” slapped Bush and the MSM.
they’re
wow, been away for 2 hours and there are days worth of posts below for me to read through…all excellant
I have to comment on one several srories down
I take issue with my bold
they do NOT think their goals can be achieved, their very purpose is that they NOT be achieved, they want unrest, they want a destabalized middle east
the last thing they want is for their to be some kind of success
success would mean we are NOT in Iraq, it would mean THEY control their destiny, THEY control their oil, THEY control the affairs that transpire in the middle east, the neo cons want NONE of that
the very last thing they want is success in Iraq
The press was not had. It was complicit. The New York Times and the Washington Post, Time and Newsweek, the networks and cable news, NPR and PBS, they all participated willingly in bolstering up the worst Presidency in our history. They have done it by all the stories they didn’t cover, all the investigations they never undertook. They did it and still do it by speaking in a language made up of White House talking points.
But their biggest con has been treating this President and all of his horrendous disasters, crimes, corruption, incompetence, and attacks on the Constitution as if it all were “business as usual”, as if this Presidency were no different from that of Eisenhower, Reagan, or Clinton. They discuss each new idiocy of his as if it were entirely legitimate and reasonable. The President is making his case to turn things around in Iraq. Forget his track record of 4 1/2 years of failure there. His handpicked toadies Petraeus and Crocker come to town and they are not derided as such but given credibility. It goes on and on. Bill Keller lets his boys John Burns and Michael Gordon spout whatever propaganda the military has given them. Meanwhile the network news anchors check their coifs but not their facts and the cable guys mumble inanities at their circus of expert hacks and fools. And sententious dopes at Time and Newsweek hope to get invited on.
No, the media were not had. This is who they are.
peanutbutter @ 28
And our rallying cry shall be:
“Government Of the People, By the People, and For the People!”
The phrase “massive overhaul” comes to mind.
Kathleen @ 43:
From Countdown with Keith Olbermann on Wednesday September 12:
Tweety’s big on lower taxes and hates the war.
He likes to think of politics as a beauty contest and thinks that he has an eye for the lovely…I’m not so sure.
I find his political analysis off the mark many times- but when he pushes on the war- he’s about as good as anyone.
He’s mostly tryin to keep his ratings up high enough so that he stays on the air- and he’s got some gooper viewers- so he often throws em a bone- which infuriates the rest of us..
kirk murphy @ 50
Kirk, that’s not a bad idea at all.
Currently Tweety seems to have a giant hard on for Rudy–God knows why.
kirk murphy @ 50 –
exactly. applies to our pols too.
and has the added benefit of showing the rest of the world (including americans who aren’t paying as careful attention as christy and rosen) how despised the likes of freidman and roberts are.
The cost of access with BushCo is forgetting your Integrity.
Loyalty is their Honor.
Instead acting with integrity, the Goopers wear helmet hair.
Hugh @ 57
Amen, Hugh.
Tweety likes “manly” men — he giggles like a little girl whenever he has one on (!)
rw at 62 — I could have done without that image this morning, thanks. *g*
rwcole @ 60
you know what the democrats can EASILY do?
they can lower taxes…FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS, they can run on a policy that they WILL lower taxes
they can run on the platform that middle class dolars were stolen and given to the wealthy and those resources will be returned to where they belong, and that money will be aquired from whence it was stolen
we CAN run on “lower taxes” and we CAN AND WILL deliver
first thing;
reduce or eliminate income tax for anyone earning less then 60,000 dollars a year
second thing;
increase the threshold that social security is stopped…I forget what level it is stopped being payed but that needs to be increased so the wealthy that have enjoyed aquiring those resources wind up giving it back
and we WON’T call any recoup of these resources “taxes”
we will call them “asset re aquisition fee”
bada BING
I LOVE that term for a platform;
“asset reaquisition fee”
teehee…that one plays nicely me thinks
Selise at 53 — No, they haven’t changed. But — and this is just me guessing — since the conversation was still ongoing and fiesty, the mods were likely trying to let it finish on the prior thread without it taking over this one as well. Sometimes the conversation is a balancing act — it’s tough to always get it balanced just right on a thread to thread basis.
But, on the whole, I tend toward open topics unless there is a guest involved. But that’s just me.
rwcole @ 59
Yep on every point. He really likes the sound of his own voice. He hardly lets his guests speak. And he’s always checking himself out on the monitor. (That’s why he looks to his right constantly.)
dalloway @ 38
That’s even assuming we don’t run crashing into a huge Depression what with all this debt, housing wobbles, and freespending entails.
“The vaunted fourth estate has been had like a bunch of hayseed rubes”
change “HAD” to “BOUGHT”
Many of the once-idealistic journalists “out there” who abdicated their 4th Estate obligations were shoehorned or threatened or boss-pressured to take up the war gauntlet.
Not trying to excuse cowardice, but no doubt, SOME of them were in pure survival mode.
This goes to the top end of our media empires, more than any time in history since the era of yellow journalism.
The worst of the publishers? No contest. The jesus impersonator, dolphin killer and group marriage wierdo, Sun Myung Moon. His ability to hire the worst hacks in the world of journalism qualifies him as the “worst publisher in the world” (kudos to Keith O.)
But Murdoch comes in a close second. Hiatt would probably round out my own list, but I suppose there are other opinions.
Hard to argue over the top two spots, except to choose which self-delusional power-monger owns the top spot, Murdoch or Moon.
MSM bias isn’t because of blindness, or worship of power (I keep remembering those “quail wings” pus-dumpling Rove gave to his press van outside his dinner party). The MSM has been purchased by corporate entities to perpetuate their inside man, so reporters are now officially wh*res, not members of the 4th estate.
carolyn urban @ 40
Elliot.
hey, check out this lead from think progress
it would seem the wheels are comming loose and now it is GOOD for your career to defy the administration…this is GREAT;
Christy Hardin Smith @ 69 –
thanks christy, was just wondering if i’d missed something.
Biodun @ 39
oh YES. Stephen has my eternal undying love for that.
“george bush is the kind of guy who believes the same thing on wednesday that he did on monday, no matter what happened on tuesday.”
effing brilliant.
scarlet p. @ 10
Genius..sheer genius.
CHS @ 68:
Yep. A thread war is like a virus. One should keep it on its thread and not let it infect the next one.
jim oconnor @ 19
You mean like Neil Bush?
littlebear @ 17
So you’re saying, what, that lobbyists and larger corporate concerns have found a way to pay off, bribe, or otherwise get money or other incentive compensation into the hands of reporters and media outlets in ways we may not even have thought of yet? Tell us something we didn’t know!
From The Hill:
Rudy’s Rant
Christy Hardin Smith @ 69
so. how ’bout those ‘Niners?
Yep. Much of their power comes from their (hitherto) assymetrical power in communications.
The media puppets “broadcast”; pols speechify.
Intense non-violent non-threatening verbal interactions hit them when they lack those powers – and you can see the vulnerability (and their awareness of it) it their fearful eyes.
This direct advocacy is fun and empowering – and has been used with devastating effects by non-violent animal rights activists.
Meeting corporate officers and media types where their driveways (or doorways) meet the sidewalk really focuses their attention – especially on dark winter evenings.
But we the people have a right to free speech and association – publicly approaching pulic figures and corporate officers is a legitimate exercise of that freedom.
When exercised face-to-face, the freedom terrifies the powerful and insulated.
Great tool for making those tools so uncomfortable they cave.
And very empowering for new activists – speak truth to powwerful voices and watch them blanch and scuttle off.
Video highly recommended.
Identify them, locate them, target them, and frequently remind them.
They hate it.
Oh, and with some apologies to our Maryland readers…Go Mountaineers!
Kathleen @ 44
Actually, Olbermann did briefly cover this story.
kirk — With all due respect, if someone showed up on my doorstep to do something like that, I’d call the police and have them hauled off for trespassing. No one — and I mean no one — gets near my child and my family. That’s beyond anything that I would ever advocate that anyone do — it’s the step too far. At a place of business, that’s one thing — but at someone’s home? No way.
AZ Matt @ 82
oh, go get a discount from Murdick, Rudy. He’ll probably give you the whole fucking NY Post.
Gawd how I hate that guy.
perris @ 68
Hell, just CALL it lower taxes… and double dog dare the Repubs and the Prez to veto it…! I mean, they’re ALL for lowering taxes, right??
And if they do, keep bringing up various versions of that same bill…
selise @ 76
FWIW and my $.02, I try to let a reggular thread get to 50-75 comments before apologetically inserting an off topic but that’s just me. ;})
Snark will bring the Hypocrites down!
It irritates them to have their “I’m never wrong” Strict Daddy’s narrative shot full of holes within minutes of yelling it down at us.
The Goopers are silly to be hanging on – just begging for ridicule from sensible people.
It’s as if the lemmings are holding hands…but they don’t realize they’re being led by an insistent, but blind, madman.
EPU’d from earlier but on topic for here I believe:dakine01 @ 13
AZ Matt @ 82
A case of one *sskissing chickensh*t defending another. How touching.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 88
i don’t think kirk was talking about private property, sidewalks and streets are public property… and he specifically said “non-theatening”… hopefully he is still here to respond.
The full 24 minutes of Colbert at the White House dinner. The best. Watch/listen while your reading. I especially like when he rips on reporters being “stenographers” for the Bush administration and the cameras show some of the audience response. Colbert ripped the MSM better than anyone I have ever witnessed. They did not like it. Too bad the cameras did not spend more time on the correspondents response.
http://video.google.com/videop…..7758574879
Biodun @ 27
If Olbermann and Maddow are the only real skeptics, I’d sure like to know what a partisan progressive looks like. Okay, there’s Michael Moore and anyone from Moveon.org, but who in the news is more of a progressive than the two previously mentioned.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 85
They sure weren’t “fearing the turtle” much last night, were they? Much to a Terps fan’s chagrin ;-)
xargaw @ 86
Must have gone to get a glass of water during the “brief” report.
xargaw @ 87
Olbermann has quite smartly pushed all the trash to the tail end of his show, why do you all think he puts the Brittney and Paris type stories to the #! spot on his list?
Because he wants to give us the real news, and his producers won’t let him out of the trashfest.
So he gives us the good stuff first, then the trash. And I would guess it is by his own design.
Not the same on the other channels, they put the gossip inline with the real news, and you have to wait it out to get to the next meaningful story.
Just one more reason he’s kicking Falafel Bill’s butt in the ratings.
AZ Matt at 93 — I’ve seen the Guiliani ad proposal. The funny thing is that it uses the Move-On ad which, visually, is more compelling than the crap mock-up the Giuliani people put together. So, what you see at first glance, is the MoveOn ad.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 87
kind of reminds me of the scene in Farenheit when Michael Moore accosted the congresscrawlers on the steps of Capitol Hill about why their kids aren’t fighting in Iraq. That was their place of business all right — and it was priceless.
Loudon — Those turtles in that commercial sure are cute, though. *g*
xargaw @ 86
link?
Ann in AZ @ 97
amy goodman! bill moyers!
Some people are hoping that what the general said is true. Kind of like still believing in the Tooth Fairy.
From the Hill: Lemmings
Christy Hardin Smith @ 100
He also said on Larry King last night that Hilary has “implicitly endorsed” the ad because she hasn’t denounced it.
selise @ 94
selise, I think this is the quote from Kirk that bothered Christy:
And I would have to agree with her. This is a BillO tactic and it is not a good thing to be associated with BillO tactics.
Although I do think there is a certain amount of “we gotta” from the whole corporate consolidation of the media, I also think that from an individual reporter/commentator aspect, what is also at play here is having been “charmed” during the election process (bowling oranges, folksy-ness et al) as well as a certain “He must be ok – he’s from a rich family – although he’s sort of a stupid frat boy” thing. I also think that reporters (except for Our Lady of the News, Helen Thomas), like Nancy Pelosi and many other Democrats, STILL think that deep down, Bush and Cheney are decent, God-fearing (clean, thrifty and reverent), basically good people. And basically good people don’t go around invading countries thousands of miles away unless they have “a really good reason”. Well, this is where they’ve missed the basic point: Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft, Daddy Bush…all of those guys…are NOT good people. The concept of “trust in the ethical core of the GOP” does not hold here because these folks do not HAVE an ethical core. They’d sell their grandmothers for their teeth — no, that is wrong – they would sell OUR grandmothers for their teeth. They would fight to the death to protect their own families for having any harm done to them. The rest of us have to take the harm. And the sooner reporters prick up their ears and really listen to what these SOBs are saying and what it means, and report it truthfully, the sooner they will earn a little bit of respect from the rest of us.
Helen — Well, by that impressive logic, Guiliani has endorsed public sexual solicitation in men’s restrooms at airports because he hasn’t publicly denounced Larry Craig. And on it goes…
AZ Matt @ 106
i have sympathy for those who want to believe in the tooth fairy… after all, i keep hoping the democrats in congress will do something to end the war or constrain the worst of bushco’s excesses. *g*
Helen @ 107
That Hillary! How could she not agree with Rudy!!
Hugh @ 57 – Agree completely. If Bush said we we’re all headed for Mars, they’d report that as an actual, legitimate policy and activity that was truly, truly going to happen since Dear Leader said so… oh wait.
Unbelievable, literally
Christy:
I agree with Hugh @ 57
The traditional ‘fourth estate’ is moribund.
It falls to others to perform the task (so critical to democracy) of usefully informing the citizenry of this nation, however poorly once performed by (in)famous newspapers and the writers they supported. On the airwaves, Murrow and Cronkite are but fading memories.
I do not see a massive change on the near-horizon for ‘opinionaters’ and ‘flufferators’.
If and when such change does occur, it will be
well-behind any claim to timeliness.
By then, you, Jane and others on this and other blogs will have respect and authority.
That is good news!
selise @ 111
There are billions and billions of stars to wish on too but I haven’t found the right one yet. *g*
perris @ 32
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard Chris Matthews literally say he’s not allowed to say this or that, he’s not allowed to endorse a candidate, etc. Say what you will about him, he has gone as far as he can to say outright that he is restricted in what he can say over the airwaves and not get in trouble for it. I figure he’s in a permanent state of trouble just for what comes out of his mouth anytime. I also think that if Jon Stewart went on his show, we would see a repeat performance of the one he did on Crossfire. I think he’s tell him that he’s hurting America by trying to instigate some of the verbal battles he loves to get into. That’s why I don’t think we’ll ever see Jon on Hardball.
kirk murphy @ 84
william buroughs did some work in this regard. turning to watch the watchers, especially with video/film said to have “magical” effects. burroughs claimed to be able “infect”, by said video/film, and so, put businesses and/or individuals on the defensive. oh boy! experiments!
punaise @ 83
Well, they have a good start to their season, anyway. I hope it continues.
Kind of OT:
It’s been replaced, but the CNN.com poll this morning was asking if pulling 5700 of our people from Iraq by Chrismas was too many, not enough, or just right. It was running 71 percent ‘not enough’ (20 percent ‘too many’). I don’t think the speech last night worked on anyone not already in the wingnut choir.
dakine01 @ 108 -
ok, good point. i’m certainly for staying on public property (for example sidewalks and streets). i thought that’s what kirk meant, but maybe not.
selise at 94 — For the record, it was the “dark winter evenings” portion of the sidewalks and driveways greetings that I found particularly off-putting. Having had to deal with increased security needs from time to time while working criminal cases, I have a very keen understanding of how that sort of surprise in one’s driveway on a dark evening near your family is just plain not appropriate.
Kathleen @ 103:
See my link @ 59.
Stephen Colbert “let’s review the rules. The President makes decisions, he’s the decider, the Press Secretary announces those decisions, and you the people of the press type those decisions down. Make, announce, type.”
No one was safe at this dinner. Well maybe Joe and Valerie Wilson. The Bush administration all ready took out Valerie
punaise @ 83
so. how ’bout those ‘Niners?
707!
Yep. Dark winter evenings…
It’s enough just to have to deal with the winter itself in Minnesota…*g*
BTW someone last night I think it was Eliott pointed out that Charlie Rose was having a round table on Bush’s speech with Al Hunt (Bloomberg), George Packer (New Yorker), Fouad Ajami (John Hopkins), and Sheryl Gay Stolberg (NYT).
Al Hunt (married to Judy Woodruff) did say that nothing would change before Ja. 2009 but mostly he did a really good impression of someone going senile. George Packer was more articulate in saying that Iraq was not going to improve. Fouad Ajami was high on his meds and everything in Iraq was as fine as he was feeling. Sheryl Stolberg talked about how the Dems were having problems with their “base”, you know the 60-70% of Americans who oppose the war.
Not a single progressive voice, no one to tell the truth, just various shades of the Beltway punditocracy presided over by Charlie Rose the high priest of the Conventional Wisdom.
707, Hugh @ 124!
Be-yoo-ti-ful.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 120 –
like i said to dakine01 @119, maybe i did misunderstood kirk. i don’t like the idea of scaring anyone or threatening anyone or trespassing on private property (public property is a different story)… but i do like the idea of having one’s view visible in way it can’t be avoided.
rwcole @ 62
Little dick, giant hard on. Physically impossible? Apparently not.
Re: Giuliani and Hillary and MoveOn:
Rude Rudy simply wants to jump start the general election season.
Speaking of the press, Marcy’s got another winner up It’s All Zapruder’s Fault
I think the most direct way we can take back the media is to form some sort of corporate entity (with progressives like us as the shareholders) to literally buy media outlets, one at a time.
Unless any of us are obscenely wealthy, I think we would have to rely on some sort of corporate (or maybe cooperative) model to pool our financial resources to get this done.
We could start small with small-town newspapers (if the local paper is not for sale, perhaps start up a new alternative)
In fact, perhaps the initial investment could be in a printing facility that could help subsidize the costs for progressives starting an alternative, progressive newspaper in their own towns.
Then as the revenue grows, we could start moving into radio and eventually television.
I would really like to see something like this happen.
Agree, although sadly, with the post.
More articles should include simple, basic demographic information that explain how a fundamentally UNrepresentative instituion, U.S. Senate, plays right into the hands of the neocon and BushCheney extremists on Iraq (and much else).
Simple example — the U.S. Senate’s demographic disparities:
(a) Feinstein and Boxer represent close to 38,000,000 Americans.
(b) Hillary and Schumer each represent over 19,000,000.
(c) Alabama’s Shelby and Sessions represent about 4,500,000 Americans.
(d) Oklahoma’s Coburn and Inhofe represent just over 3,500,000 Americans.
—————————–
Basically, 8,000,000 Americans are ‘holding hostage’ 57,000,000 Americans, all of whom are taxed for a war costing $13 billion a month (most of the cost is borrowed from Asia; we have to pay it back).
Nevertheless, the press coverage leads one to believe that all those Senate votes somehow represent ‘the same number of citizens’. That’s misleading!
It’s not dishonest, but it IS misleading. If fails to accurately capture or express the true nature of the underlying reality.
Accurate reporting provides CONTEXT.
er…OT, but, interesting on viral theory of W.S. Burroughs
Re: the Giuliani ad in the NYTimes about Hillary and MoveOn:
The only visual in the ad is the MoveOn.org ad itself. As Christy said, calling attention to the MoveOn ad.
Found this via Atrios:
Republican Predators
David W. Bartoo @ 113
I think the blogosphere is rising to become this. Seriously. The media is always supposed to have been run by the people.
Good Morning Christy.
Only at the Lake in fits & starts today. But I got the lawn mowed. Had to hold off the last several days as our local bluebird family finished up housekeeping & f.l.e.w.!
Just sat with the binocs most of yesterday, enjoying the commotion in the yard. We’ve got lots of moths and berries, so the parents were bizzy leading the kids around and teaching them how to get their own chow.
Would that someone in the boosh & cheeney clans had paid half the attention to raising their wretched, feckless spawn!?!
[gee. i hope “feckless” is in the c-eyeaay dictionary]
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 131
Hey RoTL!
As someone pointed out yesterday/last night when you take the text out of context, all you’re left with is the con.
Biodun @ 128
go4it Rudy, you vile execrable putrescence of an individual. When this is over you are gonna ooze like puddle slime down a New York sewer, flushed away for good.
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 131
I hate to quibble on a technicality, but I believe most of these Senators ACTUALLY represent the Fortune 500, and the same 1 percent of American citizens at the top of the economic ladder.
But other than that, your point is well taken. Our system is seriously flawed (We were sort of the beta version of democracy so you would expect some bugs), but fixing it will take major Constitutional revisions.
SufiLizard @ 130
Excellent Idea!!!
You bring genuine ’soul’ to pragmatism.
You are a true leader – in all the best senses of that term. I hope that does not offend.
New Christy thread!
Biodun @ 59
Thanks do you know what day that was? I did not watch Monday. If it was Monday, it would have seemed like they might have followed up with more coverage like the time they spent on Brittany for the next several days. Enormous amount of time on Brittany on Wednesday and Thursday.
Colbert
http://video.google.com/videop…..7758574879
The scenes with Helen Thomas staying on the critical issue
The lack of clapping at the end of the Correspondents dinner demonstrates how the MSM is unable to honestly reflect.
My take on Chris Matthews is that he is a loose cannon. He can ogle Bush’s crotch or stare down some woman’s bra on screen. He can be as controversial as he wants to be as long as he says nothing important. He is only there to fill a space and garner (marginally) an audience. If he ever said anything that offended his corporate masters at GE or jeopardized their relations with the government he would be gone in a flash. The same is true of Tucker and all the others. It is true in its own way at CNN and with Wolf Blitzer. It is all about appearing to rock the boat without actually rocking the boat, and getting just enough viewers to make the sponsors happy.
The Germans aren’t going to let Condi have a ‘more sanctions on Iran’ success.
She’s been a totally irrelevant Secretary of State.
SufiLizard @ 139
*snort*
I don’t think this is a fundamental flaw; the House exists precisely to address this issue. The Senate was to address the issue of the smaller states’ fears of being trompled on by the bigger ones. So you have the 2 per state in Senate, and the population-proportioned House…
Fresh thread, up and running for everyone…
Ghouliani did Moveon a big favor by getting the ad back on a full-page ad – for free!!
Bonehead.
Christy, this tactic makes many people – especially parents – very uncomfortable.
That’s the point.
Waiting on the sidewalk outside the property isn’t tresspass.
So the issue isn’t illegality.
Monsanto’s carcinogens don’t stay in the office: they slay my patients in their homes.
Friedman and Cokie and their purchased coleagues brought death and misery to millions of homes in Iraq.
Friedman and Cokie and their colleagues reap social power from their complicity – and they have the choice not to.
My patients on the cancer ward didn’t have a choice about the choices Monsanto execs made in their offices – and those choices followed my patients home.
And killed them.
The Iraqi people didn’t have a say in Friedman’s and Cokie’s choices -
or in the war that slays them in their homes.
Confronting the domestic US collaborators in corporate murder (by mass poisoning) and mass slaughter (by Iraq war) at their homes is the least we can do – and I’m proud to advocate it (done legally and non-violently).
If Cokie and Tom and the Monsanto board don’t like the fact their children may see protesters talking about war crimes on the sidewalk outside their expensive homes, they can choose between their purchased subservience and their family.
I respect your discomfort with this tactic, but I shall continue to advocate that those whose decisions affect others’ homes and families hear about their decisions as they enter and leave their own properties.
If they can’t be troubled to care about anyone else’s children, their concern for their own family will force them to quit sacrificing other families to power.
No place to hide for the powerful – not even behind their children. If these wealthy people with multiple homes don’t like the pressure, they can quit – they don’t need the money.
So long as they hang in there for the power, they may expect to have non-violent assymetrical “social pressure” tactics applied to them – with increasing frequency.
So long as they leave the rest of the planet no place to hide from pollutants and bullets, they will have no place to hide from non-violent reminders of their crimes.
Until they quit or change.
Their illusory immunity comes from their delusion they are not part of a larger community.
When the exec’s family sees protesters at his driveway in the morning – every morning – “community” takes on a whole new significance for them.
And the corporate tools cave.
As far as public officials – I’m quite OK with the same tactics used on elected law enforcement (DA’s, elected sherrifs) and representatives. They are our servants, not our masters, and deserve no more protection than any other citizen.
And the public’s right to assemble in public in business hours outside of elected officials’ homes is quite robust – as it should be.
Power – most of all – deserves no special hiding places.
(I’m not advocating such tactics for non-elected civil servants serving under the direction of elected DA’s or Sheriff’s)
Those who seek public office to wield the power to affect others wherever they may be are entitled to peace on their property – and we the people are quite entitled to assemble off their property and exercise our rights.
So I’m not advocating that anyone ever come protest outside the homes of assistant DA’s.
But public elected officials – the street in front of their home is fair game.
Hope to see many, many driveways adorned – on the public street – with “welcome committees” for the elected/media collaborators in the Iraq Occupation.
To end the war, bring the conflict to power’s homes – on the sidewalk and in the dining room. And the bedroom.
kirk murphy @ 148
Who’s home can I protest outside of in the Sacramento area?
kirk — Where I live, setting up on the sidewalk outside someone’s house can be tresspass because often the sidewalks are privately — not publicly — maintained. So yes, it can be tresspass. It can also, for the record, be a question of assault — no physical touching required, simply a feeling that there is a physical threat to someone’s person, which is an easier argument to make at someone’s place of residence than in a public area.
And it’s still not something that I would advocate. Ever.
Kirk,
I strongly disagree with your position on disturbing people at or near their homes.
I believe everyone is entitled to privacy and safety in their homes. If people did this to advocates on our side we would be furious and rightly so. Let there be a zone of privacy for people’s personal lives.
It is the same as distinguishing between military and civilians during war.
Regarding the harm done to the children of murderous press and corporate structure isn’t it better for the children to see what their parents have sown rather than grow up dyfunctional and murderous themselves?
re: “You wonder why I get up every morning and blog? Because that has to stop.”
All I can say is thanks Christy, wish we more like you, Jane, and the rest of the firecrew…bless ya !
…wish we HAD more like you !
mary at 152 — I don’t know — ask my four year old about the crazy loon who chased us through the WalMart because I sent her father to the penitentiary how she enjoyed finding out that her momma was a prosecutor…
If you ask me, no. No it is not. Children are innocents and ought not be dragged into it. And I have the fingernail scratches from my child clinging to me for comfort and out of fear to show for it. Being sanctimonious on the backs of someone else’s innocent children is absolutely where I draw a line.
Christy, thanks for the jurisdictional clarification: conceptually, I’m trying to describe public assembly at the point where the elected offical/pundit’s proerty rights end and public property begins.
For officials and corporate officers who wish to claim “assualt” whem they hear from citizens who disagree with them, the bright light of public attention is most appropriate – but I do understand and agree with your point that some will choose to meet speech with criminal charges.
I completely accept that this tactic is one you would never advocate. However, non-violent public disagreement with elected officials, public media figures, and corporate officers in front of their own homes is something I shall continue to advocate.
I have to agree with Kirk on this one, with respect to the sort of people he proposes to target — who are not public servants only doing their jobs, nor are we the angry family members of convicted felons.
I question whether such action on public property could constitute either assault or trespass, but I would have to research it. I do think the targets would probably seek restraining orders, though — which might not be a bad thing because it would bring coverage to the issue.
Kirk, I like your point about Monsanto, et al.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 155
But we are not talking about crazy behavior. It can be done properly and modestly. I am not unsympathetic toward the kids. When you have many people dying because of the actions of adults and this type of protest might save lives how do you balance the effects on children against the lives of other children saved? Is the answer to find another way? How many other ways are there? I am truly asking.
Does Kirk present any debate worthy points?
When public protest is sequestered or quashed or threatened as it was in D.C. just the other day?
When comfort zones are protected only for some,
usually the most-wealthy or most-powerful?
When our nation displays no evident respect for the difference between military and civilian?
How may justice and genuine security be ensured?
When we are spied on, illegally and without warrant (pun quite intended)?
These are questions NOT positions.
Is any further debate necessary?
While I agree with Christy, children should not be pawns, neither should somewhat older children be drafted as pawns in mindless policy endeavors.
150 and 151
CHS, there is something very wrong if it can ever be construed that demonstrating outside, on public property, wherever one can find an elected person is “assault”. If the elected live behind “privacy” of what are communal access paths and roads then they are protected from us, of course.
Legitimate, non-violent demonstrating is part of democracy…… it is the same sort of thing as someone who has been elected representing everyone in the voting area, not just those who voted for the elected.
no one is proposing any harm to anyone’s children — or to the targets themselves, for that matter. As you all know I’m a mother myself.
I don’t see why the civil pursuit of truth and justice presents any danger to any children. And I don’t see why, to take the Monsanto example again, Daddy CEO shouldn’t have to explain to Jr. why the people out on the sidewalk are angry at him.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 155
but christy, someone chasing you is quite different that a few peaceful people standing with signs at a street corner near your house.
no child – or adult should ever be made to fear for their safety. but that is not the same thing as a peaceful nonviolent protest.
David W. Bartoo @ 159
Only too true, David. I keep getting confused that we live in a democracy where there is a rule of law which police forces know how to uphold and thus do not take orders from the powerful, whether small town or national.
Did people just gloss over the whole “dark of a winter night” portion of the comment? As in:
Because that doesn’t exactly say to me non-threatening, peaceful protest. There’s a hefty difference between sign holders across the street and jumping out at someone in their own driveway, yes?
egregious @ 151
egr – no, i woundn’t be furious if people protested outside my home (so long as they were nonviolent and nonthreatening).
and i don’t think it is the same thing at all as distinguishing between military and civilians during war.
of course everyone ought to be entitled to privacy and safety in their homes… that’s a strawman. i do support nonviolent, nonthreatening visible protest in public spaces.
Christy;
I cannot speak for others, and will not, but, no, I did not gloss over any of what you said, as a parent I well understand your feelings, I share them!
However, do you think Kirk presents anything worth further debate?
Egregious, the purchased media don’t cover it, but this has been happening to forest protection advocates in the Rockies and Northwest for two decades now.
“Wise-use” puppet groups picket outside eco-activists homes routinely (the tactic I advocate). The “wise-use” crowd also vandalize vehicles, killpets, and make death threats (tactics I abhor).
So – this has been happening for decades. It’s just been directed at progressives, so it hasn’t attracted much pearl clutching.
The corporate officers, political officials, and media figures I most oppose advocate and execute policies which ensure all of our homes and childrens’ bodies are invaded by a slew of toxic chemicals – associated with infertility, learning disorders, cancer, and a range of misery.
The Beltway/Manhattan media set have been the willful cheerleaders of Iraq war and occupation which violated 1.2 million Iraqis bodies to the point of death – and violeated tens of millions to the point they left their homes.
When corporate, media, and elected America again choose to behave as though everyone is entitled to safety and privacy in their homes, I’ll no longer see a role for protesting at the end of the driveway where all the kiddies can see – and mommy and daddy have to explain every morning.
They’re alive to explain – 1.2 million Iraqis and many of the parents I saw with cancer no longer are.
When the adults don’t like the consequences of their choice to whore for war and toxins, they can always change jobs – or move.
My dead patients and 1.2 million dead Iraqis don’t have that option.
US megacorps, US media, and US pols robbed them of any options save the grave.
Our megacorps’ pollutants do not discriminate between military and civilian, parent and child – they are in all of our bodies, affecting the youngest and smallest most disproportionately.
Our military’s bombs do not discriminate – they routintely kill civiilans and the odd combatant or two.
Our opponents long ago abandoned normative ethics regarding distinctions between work and home, combatant and non-combatant.
I won’t emulate their use of violence.
I completely advocate bringing non-violent conflict right to the edge of the property lines of those who advocate, prolong, or profit from Iraq war or the megacorps’ sustained chemical warfare against our bodies, lands, and waters.
David at 166 — What are you asking? Is peaceful protest viable in public spaces? Of course it is. I didn’t have an issue with a peaceful, public space argument. But there is a privacy question not just for the person you protest but also for their family and their neighbors — and that needs to be considered as well, something that far too often is not in someone’s zeal to “get” the offending public personage.
My family has had to deal with that sort of no privacy zone from time to time. I have, literally, had to leave my shopping cart sitting full in a grocery store to maintain my safety. From people who felt it was there right to get in my face and protest the performance of my public duties as an assitant prosecutor. That is no different from protesting someone’s role in public life on other aspects. On one occasion, had I not spotted a state trooper buddy of mine in the same store, it would have continued unabated the entire time I shopped. (He happens to be a very tall, imposing sort of guy, and the annoying people ran off when they saw me with him.)
Not because it wasn’t a lawful prosecution — because it was, and a necessary one (in this case a 5th offense DUI conviction). But because they were entitled to express their outrage at it unfortunately, in a way that spilled over to threatening. That line is very, very easily crossed. And I’ve faced down murderers in my day — but this was threatening, even for me. Thankfully, my child was not there at the time — but imagine if she had been.
Look at it through the eyes of the child, not through the protestor, and for a moment feel what that would be like. And then weigh the two. That’s what I’m saying. It’s isn’t enough to be convinced in the righteousness of your cause — there are a LOT of factors that must be weighed. And, in the best of all worlds, I think private space ought to be private. Public space is a whole other question — and protesting at an office or a public meeting or some other place like that? Absolutely. But at someone’s house, in their driveway? Not for me, thanks.
Kirk;
I need time to carefully consider what you have said, quite powerfully, and deeply appreciate many of your concerns. I also appreciate that you have shared them. I wish more people would consider deeply their sensibilities and then share the reasons behind moral actions they have or have not taken. I commend you on the courage of your convictions and especially your commitment to the non-violent expression of those convictions. Thank you.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 168 –
what do you think about a protest (signs, etc) at a street corner nearest the home of the person being targeted?
i’m trying to figure out if your objection is limited to the feeling of personal threat, or if you object more generally to the idea of protest directed at a person when they are not at work.
Nope.
I’ve now been quite clear that I’m advocating confronting people right at the edge of their property lines – I ‘m going to assume that that clarification went unread and I’m not dealing with a rhetorical trick
to suggest I’m advocating trespass and thus blur or obscure the issue.
The goal of protest is to – legally – bring about discomfort. We primates are less comfortable when confronted by strangers in the dark – quite non-violently confronted.
Those with the most power are most accustomed to controlling their environment, and that begins with controlling access.
Confronting them on the public sidewalk outside of their Georgetown or Manhattan in a non-violent way may be a matter of fear for them – and their fear is their projection, not a valid reason to criminalize citizens with the temerity to confront power in public spaces right outside their homes.
In much of the US, winter evenings are dark. When darkness comes during business hours, protests in front of the home are more emotionally distressing.
I advocate the legal use of legal peacable assembly during all evenings – and I highlight the biological fact that such protests at times of darkness have more effect.
Welcome to free speech – the most uncomfortable manifestations are those most needing protection for social disapproval.
Same as it ever was.
Christy,
I thank you for your thoughtful and very coherent answer. I very much agree and am
very sorry that you and your daughter were assaulted. I am still concerned that very destructive people who have the means to game our legal system, after having committed acts that are morally and ethically destructive to society as a whole and assault specific individual human beings who do not have the ready means to protect themselves. I do believe a more lengthy debate would not really threaten any of us, however, as I think the process would be both educational and useful.
I value your perspectives very highly indeed; your influence is critically important in the process of developing progressive thought.
oops – meant to say “nope – false anology.”
obviously, a big difference exists between protesting in plain site vs “jumping out” of a concealed position on the protest target’s property.
With all respect for Scarecrow, the latter is a strawman, and is not what I am advocating and have practiced.
Having them see the protesters when they pull up to the house after a day at work – all of waving in the headlights, no surprise – is far more disheartening for the protest targets.
jeebus. “plain sight”, not “plain site”. My second grade teacher would be appalled.
kirk – thank you very much for your further explanation / clarification.
Me @ 172
Oop! Left out the words ‘are not held accountble.’ after ‘ready means to protect themselves’.
Drat! I do care about verbal precision.
and again, we are NOT talking about criminal prosecutors being confronted by people with personal grudges here — nor is chasing someone through a store the same thing as standing on the sidewalk in front of their house.
Unfortunately, I think the sad truth is many of the targets would find ways to stop it, even short of resorting to the courts. Gated communities, for example, as someone mentioned above. And hiring their own personal goons. Look what happened to the guy who tried to ask George Allen a question last year (not the macaca thing, an incident where Allen’s thugs threw the questioner on the ground.)
the Bush WH isn’t manipulating the press! The press helped put him in the WH and they are in collusion with the WH in keeping him in and safe from any stronger outside power. they will never call the administration liars, no matter what they say.
And Christy, though it goes without saying, I’m wholly opposed to anyone threatening a public figure (no matter how despicable, not that that would apply to you) or private citizen.
I’m also appalled that anyone threatened you for carrying out your official (non-elected) duties.
I’ve been physically assaulted once and threatened on numerous occasions in the public psych clinic in just two years – always for failing to act as a soft drink dispenser for the patient’s prescription drug of choice. The most recent charmer kicked his tiny companion dog in front of me and then towered over me screaming when I told him my office was no place for violence.
Complaining about me – protesting me – is one thing.
Threatening me is another – and it illegal, if it comes as retaliation for my official duties.
Christy, I would never support any form of physically threatening statement at someone’s office or home, and I genuinely regret you were threatened physically. (and that I have been assualted and threatened… I won’t be in that clinic much longer).
If I saw DiFi or Pelosi – both of whom refuse to meet anti-war constituents – pushing a grandkid around the Ferry Plaza in a pram, I’m quite comfortable reminding Grandma – in conversational tones – that her blood-soaked cowardice deprived hundreds of thousands of other grandmothers the same pleasure.
And do it all in “cooey that’s a good baby” tone for the little one.
Raise my voice? Nope – detracts from my message, and would bother the babe.
Follow someone around a market? Nope – I’m trespassing on private property.
But threaten – never.
I wish law enforcement in the Pacific Northwest shared your concern about threats to public figures – when the public figure is an enviro, the rural sherriffs laugh in our faces.
So I have many practical reasons – in addition to my own values – to never support anyone making threats of personal injury in public protests (or any other context – includig foreign policy).
In my experience, those who have arrived at forest protection/ anti-globalization protests and made such threats or encouraged others to physical violence ultimately proved to be working for or informing for law enforcement.
Because they are presumed to be infomers/provocateurs and because what they advocate is wrong, those advocating any form of violence agaist persons have been, are, and will be excluded from any experienced organizer’s protests.
So the sort of “property-line” edge protests I advocate (here and elsewhere) is non-violent, non-threatening, conducted on public property – and intended to use legal means to make adults so emotionally uncomfortable they decide to make different choices.
Speech, pure and simple.
And – precisely because it is socially objectionable – precisely the form of public assembly and speech most needing Constitutional protection.
Because home-adjacent protests are unpopular speech.
David and selise – thanks for your questions and exploration.
And thanks to all who joined in this respectful discussion of our different perspectives on the appropriate place and manner for public protests.
Thanks especially to Christy for her tolerance of my very different opinion on this matter.
Before reading Kirk’s comments, I would probably been taken aback at the idea of confronting someone at their home, I certainly would not like to be confronted at my home and, no doubt, my neighbors would wonder just whom it was that had shattered their calm, generally quiet sense of a pleasant neighborhood, where children laugh and play and the most obnoxious sounds are early morning mowing and sentinel crows reporting the doings of local cats. However, just as some others have obviously considered the role ‘comfort’ has played in our national hubris, I too have been pondering upon the ability of many powerfully destructive persons to evade ANY personal consequence for decisions they have made.
Well, Kirk, you have got me thinking further.
Still don’t know what I’ll ultimately (?) decide.
I thought the myth of hyeanas qua scavengers was dispelled with actual film footage years ago. In fact it was also shown on film that the lion, king of the hill, that was the beast who scavenged the hyeanas’ kills.
Arabs say hyeanas steal babies. I can believe that.
Perfect, CHS. You nailed it right on the head.
MAN! I’ve always had a big crush on Patti! Bang! Bang!
All worked up over the video, I haven’t read the post yet. Thanks, Christy!
P J Evans @ 29
And this is a reason to not consider a strike???
Logic like that would have resulted in the stillbirth of the United Mine Workers.
The very reasons you give for not taking part in something like this are what led to people dying and being injured in labor struggles throughout the thirties and forties. The ownership class loves it when someone else becomes a member of the club as long as that person has just enough to get by on so that the job now becomes a complete necessity and the thing now onwed, probably a house, becomes the lodestone that drags the worker under the boss’s thumb.
I’m not trying to be mean-spirited or unfeeling, I understand what it is like to have to work every single day at a job you hate with no end in sight and a paycheck away from destitution, but that situation won’t change by itself and the Democrats and Republicans give a shit about whether or not you ever even get close enough to get a whiff of the American dream as evidenced by the wonderful Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005.