Last night we heard the President of the United States declare that he would refuse to allow US troops to come home from Iraq until they achieved “success” as he and only he defined success. “Return on success,” he told the troops, adding that “the more successful we are, the more can come home.”
Mr. Bush also called for Congress and the American people to unite behind his polices. He did not ask for their guidance, nor offer to work out a united policy in genuine consultations with both parties. His approach was unilateral, as it has always has been.
What should Congress do with a President that defiantly tells the nation that he will hold over 100,000 soldiers hostage unless they achieve a “success” that is essentially undefined and likely unachievable? Has Congress so limited its constitutional role that there is nothing more to do but send the hostages more weapons and rations and tend to their wounds and their families?
How should Congress respond to a President who, while giving lip service to the hope for national unity behind his fantasies, holds them in contempt, ignores their concerns and the disapproval of a large majority of the American people? What do such feigned hopes for unity mean when coming from a President who simultaneously announces a unilateral decision to commit the United States to permanent bases and a permanent “special relationship” with a country we invaded but which he now declares to be our “ally” and whose “success” he unilaterally declares to be in America’s strategic interests? What will they do when he expands his covert war against Iran into overt attacks, inviting unknown reprisals and consequences for the troops he holds hostage in Iraq?
In commentary following the President’s speech, MSNBC’s pundits discussed how, in insisting on his unilateral view of success, the President plans to saddle the next Administration with the problems he and Dick Cheney created and repeatedly exacerbated. Following a lamentable performance by Joe Biden, the pundits described the Democrats as angry, depressed, but also defeated, unable to stop this, because they are unwilling to deny the funding or risk a confrontation with the worst, most reckless and lawless President in our history. Chris Matthews noted that George Bush has now proved his critics right. Before the war, they argued that we should not go in, because we will never be able to get out. Are the pundits right?
No one mentioned that impeachment is and always has been the logical and necessary remedy for an out of control President. Holding US troops hostage to an impossible, ill-defined mission, causing the unnecessary deaths of hundreds, perhaps thousands more, surely qualifies as an impeachable offense.
Almost no one believes impeachment would be successful in removing the regime from office; but we cannot see that future with certainty. And I’ve never believed that was the only point. The effort itself would be worthwhile; it might cause the regime to modify its policies, though that seems unlikely now with this regime, if only because Congress refuses to take its prerogatives seriously. But even if the effort fell short, it would reflect well on those who tried; it would give their followers a worthwhile cause; it would educate Americans on what is at stake and define who stands for the Constitution, and who does not. It would frame the next election on the issues most vital to the nation. Why should we shrink from that battle?
Whatever the outcome, the effort could also help preserve and encourage the impeachment remedy’s future use by those who follow and may need this cure again. Preserving the efficacy of impeachment is important in itself. Ignoring impeachable offenses and doing nothing are inexcusable.
To the angry, frustrated Democrats I say: You have nothing left to lose except the Constitution and respect, ours and your own. Stop whining. Use it, or shut up.
Related posts:
- Bolton, Clinton, North Korea: One of Those Good Problems
- White House: We Can’t Fix Our Afghan Strategy Until the Afghan Problem Goes Away
- Breaking: Obama Writes Letter Opposing Inclusion of Graham-Lieberman in Supplemental
- Robert Gates: George W. Bush Was No Ronald Reagan
- Progressive Caucus Requests Meeting with President Obama to Rethink Afghanistan





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CAW CAW
scarecrow en fuego!
It’s 6:40 CA time, and your posts come before coffee. Thank you so much Scarecrow for two outstanding pieces. Made my day already.
You’d have thought that impeachment would be a more viable option a few months ago, when his favorable poll numbers were at their absolute lowest.
Scarecrow, could this actually happen? I suppose one must hope…
-MS
“To the angry, frustrated Democrats I say”
add “Congressional” just before “Democrats” and you will be more accurate.
Most of us rank and file Dems don’t have the power, our elected Dems do, though.
And you might consider changing this too,
“You have nothing left to lose except the Constitution..”
Maybe “WE” would be more appropriate…
Wait. Do the troops have to wait for their success or Bush’s success?
Next week is supposedly constitution week. I’m going to wear black – in mourning for the constitution. for the absence of impeachment. for unnecessary deaths. and so much more
I’ve advocated impeachment for a loooong time.
OldCoastie @ 2
I hope not! They’re sort of combustible ;-)
Amazing! The Dems are waiting for Bush to give them permission to impeach him…
That’d be all of us. Great posts, Scarecrow.
I love your posts, Scarecrow!
In addition to all the benefits of commencing impeachment that you list, their defense of it will apply economic and emotional pressure to BushCo…and who among us wouldn’t get at least a little satisfaction from that?
Nothing to see here, move along. Nothing new under the reign of Chimpenfuhrer I.
His perspective of bi-partisan is do what I say and we’ll get along. Never has he shown the remotest willingness to compromise and even when he has been pushed to it, his passive aggressive nature has resulted in the signing statements or whatever other psychological crutch he has given himself to avoid doing what he was told to do.
Every time he opens his mouth, he is massive proof that the Bargoyle is the epitome of permissive motherhood who never disciplined her children. Too many privileges and too few constraints gives us Preznit WATB.
YES
IMPEACH!
Why do you think Biden’s performance was ‘lamentable’. I’m curious.
Biden’s plan is occuring by default. The division of Iraq into sectarian pseudo states is the natural course eddieing around the boulders of our presence, that I believe will eventually be encouraged by an international desire for ‘peace’ on the ground there. It may be the only conclusion that allow’s some semblance of recovery of the U.S. as a pariah, in keeping the wanton destruction and death from continuing after our departure.
Do you know what is the most frustrating thing about the impeachment issue?
To so many of us, it seems like the utterly obvious thing to do. From that context, one wonders about the Democratic leaders in Congress: WHAT can they be thinking???
Arghhh…
-MS
radiofreewill @ 10
sad but true, rfw
.
“Whatever the outcome, the effort could also help preserve and encourage the impeachment remedy’s future use by those who follow and may need this cure again. Preserving the efficacy of impeachment is important in itself. Ignoring impeachable offenses and doing nothing are inexcusable.” -Scarecrow
ccmask @ 6
Isn’t there something so sadistic to the troops in Bush’s idea of “success”? The “success” is a phantom, because all the “goals” are unattainable for the military as put forth by Chimpy, unless of course the troops recognize “success” is really a deadly political game, plus contractor heaven, and neocon dominance in the ME and feel ok about fighting for that. Rather than the AQ terrorists they were first told about.
should read “from continuing”
Not to mention that, by not defining success, he’s free to move those goal posts around to ensure that “success” is never met and so can keep the troops there indefinitely.
There are so many levels on which this Preznit is so *wrong* it makes my head spin.
Impeachment really is mandated for this situation. It’s completely untenable.
Excellent posts, Scarecrow. Sadly, it seems that the GOP is still reaping the benefits of the Clinton impeachment fiasco. It was such a blatant partisan attack, not to mention a waste of time and money. But now, when we have a president who has gone so far off the deep end of logic and sanity, the Dems are afraid to bring impeachment and risk being accused of payback. The truth of course, is that impeachment should never have been taken “off the table”. By doing so, the Dems have now become complicit in the ongoing insanity. Prior to the mid-terms this entire mess could have been laid at the feet of the president and the GOP. Now, due to the spinelessness of the Dem leadership, they are just as guilty.
You are right about impeachment, but it is unlikely that will happen. It is equally unlikely the Dems will withhold funds.
I suppose this is off topic, but not in the sense we are all concerned about the way things are.
Could we initiate a effort to have the blogosphere send letters to the Joint Chiefs asking them to disobey an order to bomb Iran if one is ever delivered? I don’t know if the Joint Chiefs see themselves as agents of the citizens in this democracy. I think old fashioned snail mail, with everyone making up their letter might work if enough do it.
When I was in the army (Korean war) I was told I had to obey orders. I was also told I was obliged to disobey an illegal order. I guess the same holds true today. The line is blurry and one disobeyed at one’s risk. I suppose the same obligation to disobey an illegal order is true for general officers. Does anyone have thoughts?
Scarecrow, Thanks for the post and all the comments. What appalls me the most is Bush’s inability to take responsibility for his decisions. The soldiers are only following the orders they receive and so far those orders have led to failure. The President is by far the most immature, amoral person that has lived in the White House.
Would anyone care to join me in drafting benchmarks for the U.S. Congress? With times certain for achieving them? Including impeachment proceedings? We need to do this. If not us, then who?
Impeachment? Public financing of elections? Talk about moving mountains. Without public financing of elections, not much will change. What does it take? You can’t buy good government. Like Biden says: Retail politics.
Who in my party is calling for impeachment?
“Almost no one believes impeachment would be successful in removing the regime from office.”
To the contrary. Allit would take is getting started, clearing the hurdle of House approval for impeachment hearings. It would snowball into success from there. That’s why Pelosi is so adamant about “off the table” — after that it would be beyond her control.
“The important thing is to get the show on the road.” -Tip O’Neill
Thanks for this post!
dakine01 @ 13
I, too, blame mom & pops bush for this abominable creature.
Remind me again how the Soviet Union went down? It seems to me that endless war with the troop levels and associated costs the Decider laid out last night are a bigger national security risk than al Qaeda, no?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
As far as campaign finance reform, I think that’s going to go from bottom up. I see much more activity on this front at the grassroots and state levels than I do at the federal. It’s probably worth concentrating efforts in this direction to work its way up.
“Retail politics”…oh my what an unfortunately brilliant way to describe what we’ve got now…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
Who in your party is calling for anything?
Badwater @ 31
A couple weeks ago I got a call from teh DCCC asking me for a donation. After much reflection…NOT.GONNA.HAPPEN!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
Rep. Dennis Kucinich introduced House Resolution 333 in late April of this year. The Resolution contains three articles of Impeachment against Richard Chaeney. It has now been signed onto by at least 15 other congressional members.
I’ll keep digging to find the list of signatories.
Ed Kunin @ 22
you’ll end up on the terrorist watch list
(wish I was just jokin’)
Michael in Park Slope @ 4
The entire point is to change the national debate — we should be talking about why the regime should be removed from office, and then every egregious thing they do can be cited as another reason. It pulls everything together into a coherent political discourse.
If the President vetoes $50 billion funding to provide health care to the 9 million uninsured children not covered by SCHIP, because we have to spend an extra $50 billion prepping for war with Iran, we make the argument that anyone who would do that has forfeited the right to remain in office.
Then let the Republicans make the counter argument. I would welcome that fight.
I urge everybody here to start reading the language of the Declaration of Independence, on a weekly or daily basis. Just Google it.
OK: List of signatories to HR 333:
US House Resolution 333
Reagan claimed he outspent the USSR into extinction. Debatable.
Whomever is motivating the W is doing what Reagan did.. they are breaking our economy… and so the empire will end… not with a bang… but with a whimper.
Thanks George.
kdh22 @ 12
Yes. And let them compare this to Clinton — I would welcome that debate too.
“The more successful we are, the more can come home.”
I think that every American can hear the echo of some unjust schoolteacher from their childhood in this statement.
What a little prick.
this link. and this link and According to a poster at the Carpetbagger report:
Note that under the terms of the proposed oil law, foreign companies which will exercise control over all but 17 of Iraq’s 80 known oilfields have no obligation to;
1. invest their earnings in the Iraqi economy,
2. partner with Iraqi companies,
3. hire Iraqi workers, or
4. share new technologies
Similarly, Production Sharing Agreements (PSA’s), while the preferred model for the oil companies, were rejected by all of Iraq’s neighbours, all of whom maintain nationalized control over their oil. Only 12% of the world’s oil is produced under PSA’s, which is what the oil-baron-backed U.S. Government is trying to coax Iraq into signing. Once they do so, the U.S. will shout aggressively that the law must be upheld, and would have some legal grounds for using the military to protect what would then be an enormous U.S. investment – not to mention a gigantic national security interest.
Scarecrow @ 38
It just boggles me, but I can easily find myself arguing with a rethug over Clinton’s lies vs Bush’s lies, with the rethug — with a straight face as far as I can tell — actually taking the position that Clinton’s lies were far, far, far, more heinous. I. Just. Don’t. Get. It.
It stuns me every time it happens. Seems that lying over a personal matter is a deep character flaw, whereas lying for reasons of state is to be expected and indeed a sign of a successful and saavy presnit.
*remains boggled*
Scarecrow @ 35
Amen. The debt ceiling has been lifted twice since Bush was president. He is on record about vetoing any bill that removes his tax cuts to the wealthy, reduces troop levels beyond The Decider’s levels and adds any accountability for military spending. Let them argue that this isn’t pounding sand down a rat hole.
peanutbutter @ 36
Thankyou. ;0)
Scarecrow @ 35
Scarecrow, you’ll certainly get no arguments from me as to the “whys” and “wherefores” of impeachment – it’s long overdue!
I just thought that his very lowest poll numbers of several months ago should have provided enough political “cover” to empower some people on our side to take that important first step.
BTW, thanks again for two terrific posts!
-MS
Scarecrow @ 35
Yes, make ‘em earn their ‘keep’ for the next 17 mos. Apply as much pressure as possible, from as many angles as possible. That’s really all we have at this point. The Republicans will either stand up for him or stand down. They need to know how it feels to be held hostage. It’s a shame that our country has been reduced to this.
isn’t calling a simpleton like this president insult enough to the people of this country and the world?
get rid of it. it will kill everything in the world if it is allowed. After all the wings are pulled off.
musicsleuth @ 29
Another way to see this (pardon, egregious) is that Gorbachov (sp) did not take the Soviet Union “down.” He pulled Russia up out of the totalitarian quagmire. He had to chop off the empire to do it, but Russia survived with new possibilities. What happened later is another story.
brendan @ 39
I think it sounds like “you won’t get dessert unless you eat your veggies.”
Don’t see how the troops can comply with a plan that doesn’t exist so they will continue to die.
Ed at 22
I’ve seen it said that the Military would not feel supported in dis-obeying an unlawful order unless the Congress had already voted contempt or for the opening of an impeachment inquiry.
Honestly, we would be suspicious of the Military making a move on their own. We need Leadership in the Congress to spearhead the re-invigoration of the Constitution, and return to the Rule of Law equally applicable to all.
Somebody is going to have to stand up and Lead.
H. Res. 333: Impeaching Richard B. Cheney, Vice President of the United States, for high crimes and misdemeanors.
Cosponsors [as of 2007-08-26]
Rep. Tammy Baldwin [D-WI]
Rep. Robert Brady [D-PA]
Rep. Yvette Clarke [D-NY]
Rep. William Clay [D-MO]
Rep. Steve Cohen [D-TN]*
Rep. Keith Ellison [D-MN]
Rep. Sam Farr [D-CA]
Rep. Bob Filner [D-CA]
Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee [D-TX]
Rep. Henry Johnson [D-GA]
Rep. Barbara Lee [D-CA]
Rep. James McDermott [D-WA]
Rep. James Moran [D-VA]
Rep. Donald Payne [D-NJ]
Rep. Janice Schakowsky [D-IL]
Rep. Maxine Waters [D-CA]
Rep. Lynn Woolsey [D-CA]
Rep. Albert Wynn [D-MD]
* Steven Cohen faces challenge by Harold Ford
peanutbutter @ 36
<333
Scarecrow @ 35
Perhaps there will be a fight once the Democratic leadership has finished resting from last year’s election victory.
I have to say I was shocked when I heard Bush use that “return on success” line. How else can this policy be described except, as you say, holding the troops hostage.
Sweet Jeebus can’t we impeach these clowns?
Scarecrow @ 47
I never thought of it that way
I learn so much here
The WaPo editorial on the Bush speech was a typical Fred Hiatt BS Job! At least the NYT’s called it the smoke and mirrors it was.
Ed Kunin @ 22
your comment, after scarecrow’s excellent previous post, Bush Is Holding the Troops Hostage to “Success”, reminds me that the dems appear to be holding our troops hostage also… but with a difference – the dems are holding the toops hostage to the 2008 elections. they demand we work to give them overwhelming control of both the legislative and executive branches before they will take any action to bring the troops home (and even there it’s not clear that they don’t intend to continue the iraq occupation on a slightly smaller scale).
The administration consists of political extremists – “dead-enders”. The equivalent of the religious extremists who we are supposed to be fighting, and just as resolute and deadly. The only way to end their regime is to use the full force of the congress to revoke the authorization to go to war, deny any further funding for the war, and only fund the safe return of our troops. That is the only solution. Unfortunately, as I have said in a previous post, there is a political calculus that some believe that allowing this to continue will make for better prospects for Dems in the next election. The political will is just not there on either side to do what it takes to end this war.
musicsleuth @ 29
The Soviets ran out of money to fight wars.
The Decider is running out of money too.
A victory declaration may be just around the corner.
You know the whole thing is crazy. The Dems *should* be working over time to bring the troops back *precisely* to avoid the next preznit inheriting this mess. I just don’t geddit.
selise @ 57
Unfortunately, Selise, I too see most of the Dems that way.
Scarecrow @ 49
I agree with your assessment and your phonetic spelling. Now if I could just get people to say Spootnik correctly.
peanutbutter @ 33
19 now. here’s the link.
Elliott @ 51
Heh.
Conyers has sort of a Senate equivalent, although I don’t think he’s introduced it to the floor. I do remember something like if he gets so many ppl agreeing to it, he would. Not sure where that is, looking that up too.
radiofreewill @ 49
Besides, Chimpenfuhrer the Onest will always be able to find some compliant lackey to follow his brainless orders, no matter how incredibly stupid they may be to anyone with a brain.
selise @ 57
Very perceptive.
brendan @ 40
Yep, right up there with “No, the reason you can’t chew gum in class is because you don’t have enough for everyone.” Brainless.
DAMN STRAIGHT…exactly what MUST happen, but won’t, because this individual is the MADMAN that several on the left have been astute enough to notice for some time. What will it take for our ineffective Democrat leaders to find the courage to do the job they were elected to do…IMPEACH them both…never mind the outcome…our Constitution DEMANDS IT…I’m not holding my breath! Perhaps when he invades IRAN??????
fisheye @ 15
This is a naive comment, to think that presiding over the obliteration of a state is going to recover our good name. In the absence of the cake-and-rose-petals scenario (in which neoconservatives never believed) partition was always plan B, certainly for the Israeli and Israeli-affiliated advocates of the invasion, and probably for the more mercenary interests of the invasion, as well. You’ve unwittingly (I hope) signed on to the plans espoused by Charles Krauthammer in recent columns with your statements.
The implication that our armed forces are merely an inert “boulder” is an insult to the tens of thousands of Iraqis we’ve killed directly, and the hundreds of thousands who have otherwise died as a result of our invasion. Iraqis “eddy” around our presence in the same way they “eddy” around a helicopter gunship. It’s also their blood eddying.
It’s also obviously untrue that we are some impervious bulwark preventing sectarian violence and, indeed, ethnic cleansing. If we’re a “boulder”, we’re a pretty porous one.
Please, no more talk of “partition” as if it were some organic, benign process in which we have no hand or ulterior motive. This talk needs to be shot down.
Thank you, Scarecrow.
Bush’s speech was an exercise in sheer lunacy in every word he uttered. It’s incomprehensible if the Democrats won’t now take seriously the absolute necessity of forcing an end to the war. The longer they have delayed, the worse things have become. The excuse that they may not be successful in impeaching the guy rings hollow when he is waging a war with no chance of success. Even the cowardly Republics are suggesting the Democrats cut off funding. If Reid and Pelosi will not do the job, they should step aside and let someone else do it.
And by the way, did anyone notice Representative Murtha was not, and has not, been heard from? Is Pelosi, whom I had so much hope for, keeping him under wraps?
Elliott @ 34
We’re already on quite a few lists, I’m betting. Comes w/the speaking out in these times, you know.
No one will disobey that order, Ed, I wish it might be so, but they won’t. Congress is needed to roadblock the bombing of Iran. EPU’d from my post last thread, Pat Lang’s suggestion to Congressional Dem leaders:
“If you want to do something useful, pass resolutions tying up the president’s freedom of action in regard to Iran. Make him come to you for permission to strike them. Show some real courage. pl”
peanutbutter @ 61
Gah. Sudafed again. Conyers is congress, not senate. *Digs some more, hopefully not digging myself deeper*
Norskeflamethrower, how many days has the Iraq Hostage Situation been going on?
Toby Wollin @66:
Actually, I agree with not letting kids chew gum in class.
Toby Wollin @ 64
I would have been the sort of child to promptly hand out thirty pieces to the other kids in the class …
Great post, but why do you describe Biden’s performance as lamentable? I’m no fan of the Senator from MBNA, but I thought Biden was appropriately condescending. The way a professor would be to an idiot frat boy who was unprepared for class.
Alrighty. I knew this. The House impeaches, the Senate convicts. In Clinton’s case, for example the House actually DID impeach him, but the Senate did not convict him of it.
So HR 333 is where it has to begin, I think.
jim oconnor @ 73
Biden’s one line “What is God’s name is he thinking” was worth all the rest. I actually thought he was very good.
I saw this from Juan Cole:
“If the Democrats cannot prevail in withdrawing before Bush goes out of office (and they cannot), and if they then rapidly draw down the troops on taking office in 2009, they face the real prospect of a “Gerald Ford meltdown” of the sort that occurred in 1975 when the North Vietnamese and their VC allies took over South Vietnam.
. . . Could 2010 look for Iraq like 1975 looked in Vietnam? Yes. I just do not see evidence that either the new Iraqi political class or the Iraqi security forces are likely to have the maturity to avoid a conflagration when the US military withdraws.
. . . But in all likelihood, when the Democratic president pulls US troops out in summer of 2009, all hell is going to break loose. The consequences may include even higher petroleum prices than we have seen recently, which at some point could bring back stagflation or very high rates of inflation.
In other words, the Democratic president risks being Fordized when s/he withdraws from Iraq, by the aftermath. A one-term president associated with humiliation abroad and high inflation at home? Maybe I should say, Carterized. The Republican Party could come back strong in 2012 and then dominate politics for decades, if that happened.
. . . As for Iraq itself, the best hope for the Dems may be that Gen. Petraeus actually succeeds, over the next year, in significantly reducing ethnic tensions. It is a slim reed to hold onto, as they recognize.
. . . I’m a severe skeptic on the likelihood of anything that looks like success in Iraq. But I don’t think career public servants such as Ryan Crocker and David Petraeus are acting as partisan Republicans in their Iraq efforts. I think they both are sincere, experienced men attempting to retrieve what they can for America from Bush’s catastrophe. They may as well try, since the Democrats can’t over-rule Bush and get the troops out, anyway. If the troops are there, they may as well at least be deployed intelligently, which is what Gen. Petraeus is doing. I wish them well in their Herculean labors. Because if they fail, I have a sinking feeling that we are all going down with them, including the next Democratic president. And their success is a long shot.” http://www.juancole.com/2007/0…..-save.html
Dems in Congress must do whatever it takes, even through impeachment, to decisively change the course NOW. And if it all rapidly goes to being far worse in Iraq, it happens under the asshole’s watch. And if it goes to a far worse hell under Bush’s watch and Americans find that unacceptable and blame the Dems, then they can put another authoritarian Republican in the presidency to try to finish it. If it gets a lot worse in Iraq as a result of a Congressional intervention on Bush before he leaves office and a Democrat goes on to be elected president in ‘08, a ‘Gerald Ford meltdown’ will be averted and Republicans would likely be far less able to claim the heart and souls of the public for years to come. But by Congress interveneing now with impeachment if necessary, at the very least, we will provide some long overdue relief to those and their families who most deserve it.
selise @ 63
Rep Kilpatrick, Carolyn C. [MI-13] – 9/7/2007. The Nineteenth?
jim oconnor @ 75
I don’t actually know what specifically Biden said (though I’m familiar with his past statements on “partition”) but @68 I address the arguments of another commenter who asks the same question as you.
jim oconnor @ 74
Biden is the consummate politician…a great orator, but the minute he stops speaking teh hairs on teh back of my neck are bristled for about 2 hours.
Lost in all this is the potentially positive good will we will reclaim with the rest of the world if we impeach. It will show that our system can correct itself, and that democracy works. It might also help to enlist other countries to be more forthcoming in straightening out Iraq and helping us in capturing the criminals like the police problem it is. It will put the blame on Bush where it belongs.
Some progress:
The reasoning behind Pelosi’s impeachment off the table is that she is satisfied that Bush (and Cheney) are lame ducks.
The problem with that reasoning (which maintains the status quo) is that more troops will be killed and that the next president must deal with Bush’s mess.
Withdrawing troops from Iraq will be a messy job and the media will slaughter the Democrats when and if they withdraw troops. See Blackhawk Down.
Bill Clinton, having inherited HW Bush’s 1992 Somalia debacle, withdrew the troops that Bush sent. Naturally, they were underequipped by Bush and some were killed when Clinton ordered the withdrawal.
The media insured that Democrats were tarred with it. Iraq will be like that, but much worse.
Sally @ 70
.
Peterr posted this on the last thread, there’s more I think the comment number is 52
There’s got to be an answer to Biden’s “not enough votes.”
Muzzy @78:
Cole’s argument is pretty weak. The idea that leaving Vietnam, and not Watergate, did Ford in is improbable.
Leaving Iraq won’t do Democrats in with the voters, only with the media. As for Republicans, their inevitable stab-in-the-back narratives will be addressed to their own troops more than to the public at large.
For the younger element reading here….. Back when music was on vinyl and delivered by being scratched by a needle we talked of people sounding ‘like broken records’ when they repeated themselves constantly. The repetition was caused by the scratched vinyl recording and the needle jumping……..
I am one of those ‘broken records’, constantly repeating myself.
This Democratic Congress will do nothing because it is bought and paid for, which means the troops will stay in Iraq. We may achieve a Democrat as President and we may achieve an even more Democratic House, even a Democratic Senate in ‘08, but they will be Republican again soon afterwards, perhaps at the next election.
This is because the Democratic Party is even more owned by the Israel lobby than the Republican.
Continuing to occupy Iraq is doing Israel’s work……. This is why almost every single one of them talks but does not act. It would be just so simple to create and deliver a strong message, then to cut off funsding.
We are such suckers, dumbed down and gullible. I wonder if the failure of the press to question robustly is not just that they all work for fellow-travellers in The Lobby but that so many of them are products of so long systematic dumbing-down of our education.
Why have none of the journalists asked, and continued to ask the really hard questions, and continued to ask, many of them simple, saying “That is not an answer, Mr President? “Success, at what, Mr President?” “That is not an answer to my question, Mr President.”
If Sen Reid and Mrs Pelosi could be persuaded only to use the word Occupation, it would be easier to nail “success” and “failure” to GWB/Cheney, as neither are possible in the face of nearly universal distaste among Iraqis for our presence.
It is refreshing that it is here in particular but generally on much of the leftish blogsphere that one reads serious thoughtful postings, so there are some at least with acquired powers of critical thought.
clamberite @ 80
Oh heck yeah it would!!!
clamberite @ 83
yes.
Maunga @ 89: Amen.
I’d also add in bought and paid for by Wall Street, big oil, defense contractors, and other multi-national corporations.
clamberite @ 83
Well, of course, unquestionably. But this isn’t much of a priority to any politician that I’ve seen, and it won’t make much of an argument.
It’s just a simple majority to impeach in the House! *bangs head on wall*
This war criminal will walk out of the WH and into a life of luxury. He will never look back. He will devote his time to riding his bike, playing with his dog, and whitewashing his presidency. The whitewashing will succeed. In 8 years the country will elect ANOTHER Republican president and that person will commence naming airports, parkways, and government buildings after George W. Bush, the hero of the GWOT. All record of his crimes will be destroyed. In their place will be volumes of fiction about how GWB fought off the treasonous Democrats to save America from socialism. There will be statues and memorials. And the flower of facism will grow to encompass the earth. All because B.J. Clinton couldn’t keep it in his pants. I hope that was one hell of a blow job, Bill. The entire planet is paying for your sin.
I do not think Biden’s performance was “lamentable.” I thought he was informed, forceful, and said a lot in a short time, which last item he is not known for. We need more pushback like this. And quit shooting our own who are trying to call the Preznit to account.
brendan @ 88 – Cole’s argument might be pretty weak, but dismissing it is no justification for not acting decisively now instead of waiting well beyond another year when Bush is gone. By acting now, no matter the outcome in Iraq, if a Dem is subsequently elected president and Congress is held in ‘08, Republicans will be shattered.
Reality check:
“Impeachment is the cure”
I think we can safely say that anyone who reads this blog already knows this… Oh, and that it’s never going to happen either.
Scarecrow’s smokin’ this morning. New thread upstairs: The Oil Money Speaks: Iraq Is A Failed State
barbara @ 24
Personally I think this is a fantastic idea. Count me in!
omg it’s 10:30 and I’m still in my nightie!
I’ve either gotta go get dressed or go get some Cheetoes
More wisdom from Scarecrow upstairs.
The Oil Money Speaks: Iraq Is A Failed State
fisheye @ 15
Sorry, “lamenting” is probably more accurate. Pat Buchanan was describing Biden’s demeanor, and I was referring to that, but you needed to have seen Hardball to know that. Biden has actually been somewhat perceptive is seeing part of what is happening; would that he had been so when he voted for the authorization.
Bush has lied to Congress, taken away their power, ignored their laws, ignored their subpoenas, ignored their advice and has been completely contempuous of them legally and generally. If that hasn’t gotten Congress to step up to the impeachment plate, what will?
Simplify @ 27
IIRC when the Impeachment Inquiry was begun during the Nixon Admin. there was little reason to believe that there would ever be enough votes in the Senate.
It was the investigations themselves that woke up the American People and eventualy forced the Republican leadership to go to Nixon and tell him that if he did not resign, they would vote to convict.
The republicans held a freaking IMPEACHMENT TRIAL of Clinton knowing full well they did not have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting a conviction!
All we want to is to fund and open the Impeachmetn Investigation—
COME ON NANCY– lets follow the facts and the law and see where they lead!
Unfortunately, the congressional Dems feel this way: “We can’t get a impeachment-proof majority to pass the bills we want, and we can’t get a filibuster-proof vote amount in the senate; we can’t simply not fund the troops by refusing to pass expenditure bills as we’ll be plastered as not supporting the troops and “Defeatocrats”.”
So, what can they do? All I can see that they can do is say this: “Okay, you won’t let the bills of the majority come to a vote? You’ll play these goddamn parliamentary games to Death? So be it. We will force you to filibuster until your lungs give out and your lips bleed. There won’t be another bill passed in this freaking country until this comes to a vote. And when Bush vetoes it, we will pass a bill saying that the general funding of the Defense department can’t be used for this, and that this amount of money is for troop withhdrawals, and that’s all we’ll pass for this.”
Unfortunately none of them have the stones or the spine for that, except Dennis Kucinich.
I seriously disagree with that. Not just because the Israelis rejected the neocon new world order for oil plan in the 90s. But because as Palast wrote about stolen elections, and I see a parallel with foreign policy, with the Repuglians, vote-stealing and caging is not about racism. With foreign policy it’s not about pro-Israel, or anti-that. (Although BushCo can bend over backwards to please the Saudis.) It’s colder and smirkier. It’s about winning a game, using Israel as a sometimes convenient pawn.
Elliott @ 34
Marie Roget @ 71
Ed Kunin @ 22
So?
Probably. Just be glad we’re not soldiers who wrote an op-ed.
If not now, when?! Just DO It!
Who ever said just one side in this debate could use coctail napkin logic?
[h/t (((Jane)))]
It beats those refrigerator magnets the nit’s using!
If articles of impeachment are not brought in this instance, we might as well throw the Constitution in the toilet for LCra*g to use. If we don’t protect it, we’ll lose it, folks. Technically we have already, thru the Patr*ot lollapalooza.
No one ever said democracy was easy.
looseheadprop @ 104
I’m with you, lhp.
It’s a highly questionable assumption that the Iraqis won’t unite to kick us out.
These people have self-respect. They won’t sit by and do nothing. Neither would we in their shoes. They’re simply biding their time until they can swallow the whole beast. These people are very experienced with oppression – they know how to get to it. They are certain of it, too. All they need is time…
Abu Reesha was their Tea Party. They’ll take the cash, but they’ve signaled they can’t be bought.
Who doubts that Bush’s “We’re kicking ass” diplomacy is only sharpening their blades?
To say we aren’t supporting the Troops because we want them home is Nothing compared to willfully leaving them in place for a disaster that’s only a question of time away…
hackworth @ 85
This has been becoming clearer to me over the last year. This potential reality, coupled with my absolute frustration with Democratic leadership AND the Congress, makes me wonder if 2008 isn’t the year to make a big statement by voting for anyone without a D OR an R after their name. Or maybe not even vote at all. I’ve never done that before, but maybe it’s a lesson the Dems need to learn. I won’t support anyone who’s a party to this whole Iraq mess who hasn’t acknowledged being wrong and taken steps toward redemption. Maybe if they see their sure thing evaporate before their eyes they’ll get it. Trouble is, I support the troops, and I have a difficult time bucking my civic duty, even if it is to give some punk politicians their much deserved comeuppance.
Brendan
Is partition such a terrible idea? Iraq is a modern phenomenon, created in 1919 after the daft Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, so why not give it back to the Turks who ran it so well for about 500 years? We would gain a strong and rich federation of the same size and weight as Iran and Sa’udi to act as a balance. Anathema to The Lobby of course.
Oops. Fergot me manners.
Good Morning (((Scarecrow))).
Wonderful posts. Thank you much.
mui @ 107
Read “A Clean Break – a Strategic Plan for the Realm (1996)” particularly noting the authors and reflect upon the (published names) authors’ friends……
maunga @ 112
Yeah, but, but…the oil, the natural gas for godsakes! We need it! We will have it! Why negotiate with 3 (or more) Iraq entities when we already own one? /s
Susan in Iowa @ 95
I like the fact that Biden accused Shrub of being insane. i didn’t expect that kind of forcefulness from him.
And I agree that in the post speech show he was uncharacteristically pithy.
Just a thought…
Maybe “The Surge” was really a threat?
A threat to Congress…
Bush says “Impeach me, or try to take away my toy war, and I will send another 30,000 Americans to the meat grinder.”
Unspoken but deadly and effective in its timing.
It sure seemed to shut down the Impeachment talk…
hackworth @ 85
I hate to say this, but a day will come when I donate to a primary challenger to the first woman Speaker of the House.
I’m sorry she is not strong enough to hold that job, nor is reid. They are a pair of what my grandma used to call “weak sisters”
Why is everybody (except a couple commenters above) calling it a WAR? This is a really, really stupid mistake. There is NO WAR IN IRAQ – it is an OCCUPATION.
Sorry to yell about this but until we reframe this thing we are the ones failing more than anyone else. I want to make this point especially to all those who write the titles to posts around here. Id like to see the word “occupation” in every blog post about Iraq.
Do this reframing job and we’re halfway there. How do you “win” an occupation?
FRAME: OCCUPATION. NOT A WAR!
TOTALLY OT, but just have to share the good news from our home front.
Our little bluebird family has fledged all 5 babies (yesterday midday), and they’re doing just great. Fresh outta the nestbox, they’re better fliers than boosh ever was. (HAH! There! Knew I could make it relevant & on-topic, heh ;->)
Thank you for your indulgence….
Move along. Nothing to see here, hear?…
Please resume your regular programming….
Caw! Caw! Great post, Scarecrow!
Well, as usual, you guys are way out ahead of me, so I have not had a chance to read all the comments yet, but I thought I’d get a word in before the next post goes up.
IMO, the general public does not know nearly enough about the war profiteering and several other particularly unpleasant aspects of this war. Congress should hold hearings and demand answers like, “Exactly who is the enemy? Which side of this civil war are we on? Or are we fighting both of them?” While they’re at it, they might want to ask, “If Iranian-made weapons are finding their way across the borders and injuring and killing our troops, has anybody checked to see how many of our own weapons have found their way into enemy hands and are being used to injure and kill our soldiers?
We operate on the premise that we’re doing more good than harm, but I think we are, in fact, doing more harm than good in Iraq. Then if Iran gets bombed by us or we go too far in provoking them, they will come across that border and put all our troops in serious jeopardy.
Initially, we will fight back from the air, because air power is where our superiority is. But the Iranians have held our people hostage before, and our soldiers in Iraq are sitting ducks for them if we start bombing. It will definitely cause a liason of diverse factions in Iran, which has a population triple that of Iraq. If we can’t control Iraq, we need to give serious thought about the tiger we would have by the tail if we chose to attack Iran.
Is there any way FDL could have Dennis Kucinich on sometime to talk about HR 333 and his campaign? His progressive stance in this pick-your-candidate test and the interview with Ed Schultz on 9/12 are impressive.
maunga @ 114
I hope you are not suggesting that because some of the authors are Jewish that this is part of some conspiracy. Because I’ve really had it with that. Netanyahu may have been part of the group, but it is said that he rejected the plan. You will note that one of the recommendations was : “A repudiation of the tenets of Labor Zionism, and a change to Economic liberalism”. I hardly think that is palatable to all Israelis. Don’t turn this study into the “protocals of Zion” for the mid-east, because it sounds is if that is what you are implying. I again emphasize, that the Bush family is locked in struggle and more linked to the Saudis (hardly Israel’s friend) and the “wisdoms” of Richard Perle can be cast conveniently around in the Neocon vision of fiddling with freemarkets and radical right-wing ideal for as long as they are convenient.
GeorgeSimian @ 104
Bush never took anything away from Congress. Like everything esle this monster ever got in life whatever he “took” from Congress was handed to him on a silver platter, most recently by the Democratic leadership who have proven just as craven as the Nazis who were put into the minority in November.
This whole administration, its lies, crimes, wholesale theft of our money shows just how broken this country has become in the space of a generation of primarily Republican rule.
And yet, within three election cycles another representative of that heinous party will fool the people using populist slogans and win the White House because the Democrats have rolled over once too many times.
looseheadprop @ 118
Right on!!!
Shredder @ 119
Fine. But let’s not get lost in a semantic “war” among ourselves, either. I have faith that most of the Lake dwellers understand the situation quite well.
Note to troops: come back with your shield or on it.
Shredder @ 119
It would be nice if the leadership in Congress would put out a memo to this effect for the Democrats to follow.
It is an occupation with all the legal baggage that goes along with it which is why the administration was so quick to hand over “sovereignty” in 2004. The only thing they forgot is that if the occupier calls all the shots and rules the country through a puppet regime, it’s still an occupation.
We have to get better at calling this what it is and was always intended to be.
I want to hear the announcer from the Indy 500 say, on TV,
‘Ladies and gentlemen, start your impeachment inquiries!’
and then the sound of the printers rolling out dozens of subpoenas.
(I know. Not gonna happen. But I wish!)
Sadly, George Bush is just being George Bush. He is treating the US government just as he treated his former failed businesses. He assumes it runs on automatic, without needing substantive input from its nominal leader, lets the important parts slide or corrupts them, except for the ones that enrich him, and passes all its problems to the bankruptcy court or friend of dad. The law he treats as if it were a tax on the family trust funds: it’s a government evil that deprives him of his unearned entitlements; it should be manipulated or ignored, but never complied with.
George Bush treats the American public and Congress as he formerly treated his college and business peers, who were always more talented and successful (that is, until Karl Rove discovered what he could do with a name, as if Dubya were an old Eddie Murphy character about a con artist named Jefferson). He simply declares himself as successful as his peers. He moves the goal posts, doesn’t listen to anyone outside his loyalty network, and ignores critical assessments by deeming them “just politics”. But he remembers all slights as if they were attacks on his manhood, and pays them back in triplicate, like Michael Corleone without a brain, which makes him feel competent.
In short, he manages his presidency as he’s always managed his fragile ego or his prior businesses. Acknowledging, much less admitting adverse facts would be an act of self-immolation. He won’t do it.
All of this should make him an easy opponent for Democrats. But they must point out these failings, describe them as the faults they are, and document the enormous damage they’ve caused to America, which will take a generation to repair even some of them. So far, they haven’t done that. Time’s running out.
mui @ 123
I hold to the opinion, shared by a many Near East watchers, that The Lobby attached oil to their agenda as the hook to Bush rather than the other way about.
Those Jews, Z*onist and otherwise, who believe the Natanyahu (pere et fils) premises to be anathema, and who believe Israel must comply with all the Security Council Resolutions must publicly eschew the PNAC/The Lobby/A*P*C positions, and stand up to be counted.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
Marie Roget @ 71
The scary thing about your comment is chances are you’re right. Are we to follow a madman off a cliff? He doesn’t even jump. He tells others to jump and they do it for themselves and in our names. Congressional action would be extremely helpful, but they seem paralyzed, like a deer in a headlight. All I can do is write the Joint Chiefs. I’d be delighted if someone could think of something more meaningful than online petitions or phone calls. Writing the Joint Chiefs is not much, but if that be treason, make the most of it.
Scarecrow:
This post is outstanding!
I appreciate the fine-honed edge of your words, they are powerful and go directly to the heart of the matter. Their searing heat was not lost on me. You have, clearly, shifted into a higher, more telling, level of discourse; meshing precisely with the obvious and compelling need for action. T. Paine would be proud, and thankful. As am I.
Pleas excuse my metaphor, but your own description of the ‘porosity’ of our military is equal in context. That an Iraqi conclusion of sectarian divisions is happening despite our military efforts, is the point.
The idea you seem to propose that Iraq would not devide with out the implementation of our ‘plan B’ I think is ludacris. Let’s just ’shoot down’ talk of reality, because a fictitious Iraqi state is so important and the ‘ethnic cleansing’ despite our military efforts, is somehow not deviding Iraq? What is your point?
I guess porous is more innocuous than eddie? ( like blood throught a sieve rather than down a river?). Why did you attempt to diminish my acknowledgement of the seriousness, suffering and brutality of the war, and assign a derogatory meaning to a metaphor only to then state in different words that our military is indeed ‘porous’ and not an ‘impervious bulwark’ to the violent tendency of Iraqi sectarianism?
looseheadprop @ 105
Precisely. And “oversight” with impeachment “off the table” is folly. The Democratic congressional leadership is counting on the public to get mad and vote against Republicans like in 2006, but they’re not giving us much to vote for. When they say, “Vote for me, because those Republicans are so terrible!” our response is, “Yeah, and what did you do about it?”
Yes, that’s it. All we are demanding is the first step. Our public pressure and the facts of the case will take it from there, thank you very much. More fully explored here: “Impeach Now,” Defined.
Ahh!, “lamenting”. Indeed, Bidon was.
The people of the Lake appear in well-honed form, today, if a trifle testy. But one of the only serious, in depth and broadly conscious debates in our country is occurring right here.
Amazing expertise and, oft times, overwhelming tangential sources always appear.
Scarecrow, you are on a serious roll, to the great benefit of thoughtful souls everywhere!
Thank you, all!!!
maunga @ 131
Here I am curious. What premises are you saying were Netanyahu premises? Which Near East watchers do you refer to, I mean *names*?What is their agenda, you are referring to? Can you link to original docmentation? Because a Richard Perle creation is a Richard Perle special as far as I’m concerned, and they can base their organziation in Israel and the US and call it whatever they want. And it still has Wolf/Perle & CO. shit prints on it. And from what I’ve read in different sources, ChimpCo needed no incentive whatsoever to want to mess with OPEC, try to privatize oil in Iraq, lower oil prices and then change their minds etc. etc. Greg Palast gives his summary of that. As far as I am concerned Chimp and Cheney would have grabbed at any straw, blue print PNAC or otherwise, as long as it suited their radical agenda. And Cheney and his minions (Feith) could even trump up false evidence. So what makes you think that they were baited? And what evidence is there. Because how they act abroad (ChimpCo) really reflects domestically as well.
Net n’ Yahoo…
Always thought that was strange…
Remember the FISA law just before the break? There were like 41 Dems joined in on the road to hell like lambs to the slaughter. Do you think that they’d vote for Impeachment if they couldn’t buck Bush for that FISA stinkbomb. That’s just in the House. There were 16 traitors in the Senate. In the Senate you need 66 count em 66 votes to convict, ya right that’s going to happen. Not that I’m against it, I’m just saying…
The Democraps are irrelevant. They have made themselves thus, and by extension, have made voting irrelevant. I personally give up on them entirely.
I will not be voting for either of the two parties next November. Hell, it is largely a pointless act to vote at all but vote I will: entirely 3rd party.
The Republic is officially dead and the nation is now fully in decline towards the shitheap of history. Bush has his foot firmly on the accelerator and all the Dems do is sit in the back and squeal, whine, and cry and flap their flaccid, pasty, bony arms.
Fuckin’ pathetic and useless every single one of them.
james @ 128
ILLEGAL OCCUPATION (don’t go forgetting yer proper adjectives)
To the angry, frustrated Democrats I say: You have nothing left to lose except the Constitution and respect, ours and your own. Stop whining. Use it, or shut up.
I actually agree with quite a bit of that. The “stop whining” and “shut up” parts in particular. The “You have nothing left to lose except … respect, ours and your own,” I have to say, that battle’s over. Never mind. I thought scarecrows shied away from playing with fire, and I applaud this one for calling it in on his own vegetable patch. Burlap Face is onto something here. What the electorate wants is a pointless impeachment battle. Do it now! For the sake of the 2008 election. For America’s future. Reveal the crimes of the regime!
http://www.julescrittenden.com…..h-him-now/
The Congress doesn’t want to waste it’s time on an attempt to save the Constitution and the unalienable rights of We The People. They have other priorities. And they might fail.
So, they have decided not to try.
I think every single Congressman and Senator who isn’t doing everything in his power to impeach the president should be indicted for perjury; lying while taking the oath of office.
From a later post; Addington once expressed his general attitude toward accommodation when he said, “We’re going to push and push and push until some larger force makes us stop.”…
I see this war through the eyes of slavery, where slaves were packed up and shipped out of their countries to go and work on plantations. Today, in the 21st century our soldiers are being shipped out to go and get killed for oil…once again all in the name of profits.
Slaves were often shackled and bound in chains, given little food and water, unbearable conditions invited mutiny today, the suicide rate in the army is the highest it has ever been in modern times, and our soldiers are shackled in the sands of Iraq bound forcibly by extended deployments.
Just as they did back then, our elected officials are looking the other way and often finds ways to justify this cold and cruel treatment of human beings. What we need now and fast is a modern day William Wilberforce.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 26
I want them to build their case and impeach Cheney, so they can replace him with someone else before moving on to impeaching Bush.
They’re destroying America.
clamberite @ 83
Yes, we must show our system works or it won’t matter if George retires peacefully, it will be too late to prove our system is more than a facade, a show.
And, I think our political leaders understand this and are preparing for it. Sorry Nancy. Leadership comes in many forms. One is sacrifice.
Still, the question of timing is important. I think it will take a while to take down Dick and in the spring, after a Dem nominee is pretty much decided, it will be time to take on George.
Others may disagree, but that’s Democracy.
Edwards ‘08
Impeach. Immediately. Don’t make me have to pay extra to extend my IMPEACH car tag another year:
http://thetimtimes.com/?p=63
Enjoy.
You said it, Scarecrow, and how.
I would only add that if any Member of Congress feels him or herself unable to “use it” – that is, the inherent power the Constitution provides their branch of government, including impeachment – then the only honorable course of action for that oathbreaker is to immediately resign his or her seat in our federal legislature in order to make way for an American who does believe in our Constitution and the freedoms and rights it enshrines.
Muzzy @ 79
Very well said. You truly give Food for Thought. Bb