One wonders how many Democratic consultants manage to walk and chew gum at the same time. Today Dough Schoen tries to reduce troop withdrawal from Iraq to some polling mathematics that will give the Democrats victory in 2008. Aside from the complete amorality of the argument — let’s pretend for a moment that there aren’t a mountain of dead bodies piling up — the crux of his position is that Harry Reid should really try to get along a little bit more with Republicans:
Polling from Penn Schoen & Berland shows a strong desire for the parties to work together to develop coherent, long term strategies to fight terrorism and protect American interests around the world.
Right. Because most people are gonna say “no” when you ask them that question.
Right now, Democrats clearly have the ‘08 advantage. The American people are fed up with George Bush and the Republicans. Democrats have opened up double-digit leads on party identification and the generic congressional vote.
But the Democratic Party is also vulnerable on Iraq, where the lead over the Republicans dropped 10 percent in August to a narrow four percent margin. Rather than harp on the withdrawal, the Democrats should continue to strike a bipartisan tone and refocus the debate to other international and domestic issues. This will help them carry the day in November 2008.
Is he completely witless? Democratic approval ratings in Congress plummeted after they rolled over on the supplemental and the public perceived that they were ineffectual in doing what they’d been elected to do — stop the war.
Scratch the bit about the gum, I think you have to have a certain IQ to be ambulatory. Has anyone ever actually seen Doug Schoen walk?
Update: Digby cites a much more cogent strategry by Mark Kleiman. Why the Democrats haven’t used the Webb Amendment to better effect escapes me.
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jane!
yo
Hello!
quatro?
Rice & Beans. Yum!
Dough Schoen, shilling for the DLC?
more idiocy from pollsters….
I don’t understand the program at all. I just read your article on postponing discussions on Bolton and Miers. What are they thinking?
I have read where one of the Demo heavyweight contenders for prez has twenty-two consultants.
Hi Jane!
Day-yum. I think we need to start requiring BRANES for our politicians.
As in, a simple cat scan to see if one exists at all, should be sufficient.
I’m beyond boggled.
I didn’t know. Joe Lieberman changed his name?
so dems want another roadmap to defeat… cuz following these guys will end up in deep shit – what!
My first inkling that somebody’s ideas aren’t worth listening to often comes when that person is identified as a “consultant.”
juslin @ 7
the scary thing is that the Dems are still listening to these pollsters.
New moveon TV ad on the surge coming out next week… accuses shrub
http://pol.moveon.org/betrayaloftrust/
“a strong desire for the parties to work together to develop coherent, long term strategies to fight terrorism”
And from the republican side, what would these be? Harry Reid did a good job of stating the democratic position in his speech yesterday, move the focus on spending from Iraq to SCHIP, etc.
And there was a time when presidents actually wrote their own speeches. Can you imagine! Like, that was sooo yesterday.
“Is he completely witless?”
Yes. Simple answers to simple questions.
Hi Jane!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
there was also a time when presidents were actually literate… and actually spoke the English language, for that matter. Just imagine.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
I believe that is known as the Pre-Crayon Age.
Loo Hoo. @ 8
That they can do WTF they want with absolutely no consequences.
And I think they are very, very wrong.
After all this time, the Dem leaders act like they suffer from Stockholm Syndrome…
and take legalized corporate bribes like they were tricking for Diaper Dave.
As long as nothing changes, the money comes in.
Of course, we’ve no way of telling how many Dem leaders’ apparent silence results from Money Party blackmail over financial crimes, drug crimes, or sexual issues.
The everyday rice and beans of petty blackmail.
The majority of America wants the war to end.
The majority of Congress represents that majority.
What are they afraid of???
Just make up a bill to end the war, and send it back to the Dictator, over and over…Bush will veto it over and over…it doesn’t matter. The spin will be that Dems can’t get anything done, but the spin on that is that they ARE doing IS what the American public wants. They will win by doing that.
Boneheads.
GO YANKEES!!!!!!!
Hi Jane!!!
We need to find out who signed off on this: (Think Progress)
An internal Justice audit, released Friday, showed the department spent nearly $7 million to plan, host or send employees to 10 conferences over the last two years.
ls@23
dems are afraid of repugs attack machine….
Loo Hoo. @ 25
Good catch! “Internal” Justice audit? Yeah! Bring it on!
Loo Hoo. @ 25
I’m in the wrong line of work.
Despite the blogs and the fact that most reasonable Americans are fed up with Republican governance, the Democrats will likely dither away whatever advantage they might have had. Most people recognize the fact that they are not a real opposition party. They stand for next to nothing. They have proven themselves unprincipled and undisciplined. They always come to a knife fight armed with a feather duster. Like the good marionettes that a sizeable number of the electorate has proven themselves to be, Republicans will pull out all the stops to hit all the right emotional buttons to get the masses dancing to the tune that will ultimately result in the demise of the United States. Just today it’s reported that Bush’s poll numbers are beginning to climb.
Secretary of Defense Robert Gates being interviewed on the NewsHour. I think he said Bush would withdraw 2 or 3 million troops by the end of next year. The real number isn’t important since it is made up anyway.
LS @ 27
Loo Hoo. @ 25
what manner of conferences were these? lemme guess, Family Research Council, National Council of Evangelicals, Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Battlecry for a Generation, plus a couple beerhall putsches and, of course, the burning of the Reichstag.
EvilDrPuma @ 28
What was that we learned in school…”Honesty is the best policy?”
I couldn’t be less interested in bipartisanship.
james @ 24
Boo, FTY! Go Bosox!!! ;-)
Sure. Like this hasn’t been tried-repeatedly. And what happens? The Republicans claim credit for any progress and roll out the smear machine, every time. Clinton let Iran-contra drop and in return was nearly crucified. The Congress in 9/01 gave Bush everything he asked for, and compliant Dems were given over to the tender mercies of Karl Rove.
Bi-partisanship has to be a two-way street, guys-otherwise, it’s just being dumb.
CTuttle @ 35
Nah, nah, nah
Nice first play to open the game. *g*
james @ 33
I wonder how tasty a $25 meatball really is…???
The country is no longer “bi”partisan. It is majority Partisan!
America wants out of “war” now!!
RonD @ 36
Bi-partisanship is a one-way street for Republicans
james @ 33
Honestly, nobody gives me jack shit for attending conferences. It all comes out of my pocket. And it ain’t cheap. I guess you get all the breaks when you have a Liberty diploma hanging on your wall.
LS @ 23
Only 60-70% of Americans support an end to the war. The Democrats are clearly waiting until they have a majority.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
You need to read more David Broder. The prophet who would like to lead the nation out of a partisan wilderness into a bipartisan paradise. Gotta love your false prophets.
CTuttle @ 38
Gawd…it’s probably made of soylent green or something…Ewwwwwww…cannibals
LS @ 39
and when will our representatives heed our call?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
I’d be fine with bipartisanship if it meant bipartisanship. As long as it means bringing a Nerf ball to a gunfight, forget it.
The bus for DC leaves at 10:30 pm tonight and gets in 6am for the demonstrations. i’ve been there before (1970s) and i’m going again – and taking one son and his fiance. wearing my Ned Lamont and Kiss pins! will take pictures and post when i get back. (if i don’t, come look for me!)
Why the Democrats haven’t used the Webb Amendment to better effect escapes me.
Because it might work, and make the R’s look better. The Dems are NOT trying to end this war. They want to look like they want to end it, but actually ending it is not in their game plan. If it where, they would have used the Defense Appropriations Bill.
What I’m waiting for now is for the Republicans to utterly annihilate the Dems in 2008 by doing a quick pivot to run as the out-of-Iraq party.
Can you *prove* it didn’t happen?
EvilDrPuma @ 41
I think it’s different for these culture warriors. They need to have spectacle-like pep-rallies to galvanize the troops (the twenty-five percenters)…. complete with black flags and changes of USA! USA! USA! It’s part and parcel of their whole ethic. Rethug rock star worship.
Kathryn in MA @ 47
cool
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
Precisely. The rethugs have just been using the bipartisanship sentiment to their advantage is all. Time to hit ‘em back. Once the rethugs are back to some degree of rationality, then maybe the b-word can be bandied about again. Maybe.
I would like to see the progressive caucus just walk out if they are not allowed to bring some solid legislation to the floor for an up or down vote.
What are the requirements to be a political consultant? Apparently, not much. Just hang out a shingle backed by a couple of on-line college courses and voila.
This is my question to every candidate when interviewed. I want to know who and why this choice. If I know these two questions I know what to expect of the candidate once elected.
I can never trust what they say they will do but I can figure it out for myself if I know who is and why these consultants.
In business, consultants are jobs people do when they can’t get a real job. Label yourself – Consultant.
Elliott @ 45
What does the sound of disappointed, disgust, in the realization that our fate is being played out by schmoozy, cocktail party goers, sound like? Ptshtthhpth or something like that.
Oh yeah…..Spit (spit prepared by the elicitation of the lugy referred to above).
The dems could, if they wanted to, get an organizing committee together of house aides and sentatorial aides. This committee could be called the harping committee for all I care. They could choose scandal of the week to harp on, and have every dem include it in any campaign work/lit, and hold hearings on it at the same time. Full court press.
Harp away, dear democrats!
Kathryn in MA @ 47
Bring facemasks and towels with bottles of water in case things get nuts and they use gas.
hah dems want to keep the lobbyist ruling class happy…and dlc dems hold the reins over the party …at this point – meet the new boss – same as the old boss….
Kathryn in MA @ 47
Go, go, go, go. The whole world is watching.
Delectable!
…if you’re the caterer
I’m all for bypartisanship. Just find me an opposition that doesn’t consist entirely of duplicitous liars, thugs, traitors, perverts and facists. Then we can talk. As it is, there’s nobody to parley with.
juslin @ 58
and guess who’s gonna get fooled again?
“Compromise”? That means shutup, bend over, and spread those cheeks.
Kathryn in MA @ 47
Oh boy, I remember you said earlier you were going. Can’t wait to hear your report and see pics! Have fun.
After listening to two days of lying by Petraeus and Crocker, a speech full of lies by Bush last night, it is good to end the week with an interview with a lying SecDef.
Gates has really drunk the koolaid and now sees progress in Iraq. Of course, he is also seeing patterns in the grass, everything has a melty quality to it, and he is seeing some of the stuff he’s hearing but that is to be expected.
The strategy of acting as the “Washington Generals” of politics seems to be working out wonderfully for the Democrats. They have demonstrated a complete mastery of the art of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. No matter how overwhelming the popular support behind any initiative, the minority always manages to overcome the odds and prevail, or at the very least, thwart the will of the public. I admit to being flummoxed by this cunning stratagem, but obviously it become clear in a few more Friedman Units. Everyone knows the hoi polloi is always too impatient…
Kathryn in MA @ 47
Way to go Kathryn!!
LS @ 55
I love it when you spit, LS :)
Hcchh-2
kirk murphy @ 60
Ka-Ching…! Whew, Dice-K avoided a bases-loaded jam…!!! 8-)
Bipartisanship; compromise. Where does the Democratic Leadership Council fit into all this?
well i’ll be driving down with my DL group for the demo tomorrow.. taking my camera to protect myself – yeah right lol
james @ 57
yeah, be safe
Elliott @ 68
Yeah baby…Hcchh…that’s it! Hock a lugy in their “general direction”.
juslin @ 71
Excellent! Let’s see your pics too, Juslin.
juslin @ 58
That’s so if they are voted out of their job they can get another one as a lobbyist. God forbid if they ever do real work with just two week vacations, no healthcare, no retirement, and fifty hour weeks.
Is he completely witless? Probably not.
But on this issue, his advice is utterly moronic.
…and the trees moving in time with his breathing….
The DLC are the punkors. And we are the punkees.
Charles, it looks like 1st base is cursed tonight for both of us
Polling data like these raise obvious questions about the validity of the questions.
But don’t you also have to ask, “what fucking morons are they polling?”
The GOP takes even the wiff of compromise as an invitation to stremroll over the opposition. You do not compromise with the devil, you fight for your life. It continually amazes me just how stupid many of the DEMs can be, and that goes for the leadership of Pelosi and Reid. I would love to see someone like Debbie Wasserman Schultz or Loretta Sanchez or Henry Waxman as speaker. In the Senate, how out Feingold, or Webb or Whitehouse. We need some smart, quick thinking, articulate fighters.
Anyone worthy of being President should unload consultants and think for themselves.
nonplussed @ 66
What’s the hurry? We’re only talking about another 1500 or so dead Americans, maybe 7,000 missing a limb or with a brain injury, another $100 billion plus down the drain, lots and lots of dead and displaced Iraqis. Just a small price to pay really. So no reason to rush, no reason at all.
Elliott @ 72
Layer clothes. They like to use those pellets that bruise. Get padded. Definitely get facemasks and something see through to cover your eyes with.
Maybe all will go peacefully. Do not get lured by anyone into any kind of physical reaction. There will be agitators. Also, shout “Whoa” loudly and raise your hands out to your sides, like a “fence”, if the horses approach. They won’t run over you if you seem bigger than they are.
Good on ‘ya Kathyrn!
and for ET and Big Mitch and neighbors….
hee-hee…
burnspbesq @ 80
I find myself asking, “What kind of fucking morons enable an incredibly unpopular president of the *opposite* party?” Anyone intimidated by a president with a 25-30% approval rating has less spine than a jellyfish.
At least jellyfish can sting.
OT — burns, thought you’d like to know about this:
Jake Einstein, founder of WHFS, passed away.
Tweety on with the MoveOn ad with Eli.
Bush as Jihadist. (H.T.Drudgereport 8-/)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pag…..ge_id=1770
Eli @ 85
they are working their way down to slime molds
Loo Hoo. @ 87
Eh? What?
Oh, right. Nevermind.
Elliott @ 89
I am not lichen their performance at all.
burnspbesq @ 80
Those with LAN lines, home during the day, may or may not speak English, latch key kids, nannies, retired folks (mostly elderly) and very rich ladies with nothing to do but indulge themselves, maybe sick people with high fevers.
kirk murphy @ 77
No dude, it’s like the coffee table. It’s like wood, ya know, so it’s like a boat, but it’s a river if you like really look at it, you can float down it in your canoe and Whoa! Look out for the bong!
Blub @ 14
My congressman’s staffer quotes from these pollsters when I call. “People are sooo tired of partisanship.”
Like hell!
Eli @ 85
whatever spinal disintegration disease Specter has must be contagious…
and the dlc has all the corporate dems castigating the moveon times ad…so scared to be seen as quote – not supporting the troops so the troops will be locked in iraq for years – per chimpy’s chat last night…damn can one of them get a fucking clue?!
Hugh @ 30
Would you like to rephrase this? I don’t believe we have 2-3 million troops, certainly not in one place!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 78
And the BoSox are the Yankors.
Blub @ 95
Yes, but Specter is at least caving in to his own team.
I love baseball and am wanting to comment on the greatest ball club ever. The suggestion has been made that I will only prove myself right and that “they” won’t like it. ;0)
Eli @ 91
but the reindeer are lichen you.
Many of the pollsters are partisan. I remember something a couple of weeks ago about the different polls on the Dem candidates. Seems the Rethug pollsters (Zogby) find HLC winning. The others (non-partisan) not so much. Can’t link, because I can’t remember where I saw it. (Here maybe!).
LS @ 83
Horses and cows are interesting. They won’t step across where it looks like they can break their feet. So that’s why you see gratings across road openings in fences. It can also be faked with stripes of paint. I’m wondering if it wouldn’t be possible for protesters to have striped cloth or something to put down to stop horses.
Dunno if police horses would be trained around that or not.
james @ 79
True, I liked the first bobble for Jeter and the second…!!! Top of the Second…!!! ;-)
Ann in AZ @ 97
Well, Bush’s stuff is all made up anyway!
Protesters, it does not look like C-span will be covering the protest. Everybody take as much video as you can, if things get nasty. Due to the crap they’ve resorted to this week, they may.
Most likely though, they will try to play it down as a “non-event”, but take every precaution. They have learned that not covering protests is most effective.
Eli @ 99
True.. but he does it so completely, in such a blatent manner, and with a by-the-minute Jekyll-and-Hyde tempo that you really have to suspect an organic disease of some sort.
LS @ 106
A non-event where the non-protesters get not beaten up by the non-cops.
peanutbutter @ 103
They will not step over stripes of “lime” dust or chalk dust. We use it to mark out boundaries, but they need to be about 4″ wide.
Hopefully we will be able to find some web cams that will give us some limited coverage. There are usually a few along the route that give a bit of feel for the size of the march.
Ann in AZ @ 97
I made up the number because it doesn’t matter because it ain’t happening. Gates has said that there might be a drawdown to about half the number there are there now. This is a standard con. Make a prediction based on nothing that sounds good now but that no one will remember down the road.
How many people are expected to be there, any idea?
Tweety called out Gillespie on the continued comparison of Iraq with Germany and Korea. He said the troops were stationed in those countried when the war was over. He asked if Gillespie thought Americans might feel differently about a continued presence in Iraq if the war were over.
LS @ 109
Yeah, I was just wondering after I sent that if chalk would work — good.
on Blitzer, Carville arguing with some squeaky voiced rethug screamer about the moveon ad and rudy.
Carville says moveon is not the democratic party. No sh*t.
Loo Hoo. @ 113
The war is already over. We lost.
Eli @ 108
No, I’m not implying that exactly, I’m just saying that there may less reason for them to get violent, if no one is watching. After Yearwood, and the poster-pasters this week, I am concerned. Don’t forget the big lawsuit that the protesters won in NYC.
Right! Bandanas! i forgot about those! Layering is good advice, as is the ‘Whoa” in my parade ground voice /s
Blub @ 107
Specter is one of those guys who used to have some honesty and integrity. Ever since Bush’s move in the M.E., Specter’s own Isr*el ties have led him to join the Neo-Con crowd -Crystol, Perle, Abrams, Gordon – crowd on nearly every issue.
oddmommy @ 115
And Carville is?
Ann in AZ @ 97
We don’t even have halve that number in any Uniform…!!! ;-)
Blub @ 120
a spy, a traitor
I think I’ll give my dollars to Move-on not the DNC
peanutbutter @ 103
Sheep and goats are a different business completely. Goats will climb on fences and pull them down. The only electric fencing that we found worked was run off a horse-level charger with a hot line at the top and bottom sticking in about 4 inches so that they’d hear the clicking first and then hit the hot line before they were able to climb on the fence. Sheep are only good with fencing when they have been shorn as a full fleece on a sheep is complete insulation from a horse charger level of hot line. Ours however, respected the clicking noise quite a lot and would only need to be put out right after being shorn to “relearn”(ahem) the lesson. We could not, however, do anything about the goats climbing on top of the shed roof.
Kathryn in MA @ 118
It is possible that the horses have been trained to “whoa” on another word. If anybody is close to the horses, try to listen to what the rider is “saying” to the horse. You could use “bingo” to stop a horse, as long as the horse understands what the action is.
Speaking of cave-ins and jellyfish, Shields on the NewsHour just said that the MoveOn ad was just terrible and despicable. Thanks, Shields, for doing Brooks’ work for him. Shields always has a look of an uncertain mole. What’s worse is that he often acts like one.
Eli @ 116
Everybody lost. It was/is a lose-lose.
Elliott @ 122
He and his former CNN buddy Tucker should really hook up… in an airport stall somewhere. I see a promosing future there.
snowbird42 @ 123
Certainly seems best to give to specific individuals and specific purpose organizations so you know what your money is doing, instead of to some soulless
corporumbrella organization…Blub @ 120
James Carville, Dem pundit, former Clinton something or other. Married to rabid bush/cheney groupie Mary Matalin. A case of EXTREME bipartisanship, haw haw….
I join y’all in wishing Kathyrn and all marchers safety.
But at the risk of being tiresome -
the national street medics (the folks who’ve actually been out tending the demo injuries since a few years before the ‘99 WTO protests) don’t see this set of permitted rallies has being high-risk.
Why do I keep harping on this..?
Because the other side – the megacorps, the Money Party they purchased, and the armed public servants they command really do seek to discourage public assembly: with fear.
Uhh – folks – when we’re asking why Americans don’t come out on the streets, let’s think about our role here at the Lake.
What we discuss here really does influence opinion. At a time when the biggest risk to the permitted marchers next week will be sun, wind, rain, and blisters…
and the biggest risk to our Republic is failure to peacefully confront the Rethugs and their megacorp owners….
I’m hoping we won’t send a false message that families with kids should stay home from the mass permiited UFPJ demos.
Conflict – if any – will be on the “Black Bloc” breakaway marches, beloved of teenagers and the provocateurs who rely upon them.
As long as you don’t wear all black and cover your face with a kerchief – or toss rocks at cops – you’ll be safe.
And if someone next to you wants to throw something – don’t touch ‘em. They’re a cop.
Leave ‘em and walk on into the light.
The MoveOn rift just gets better and better.
Good luck to all of you going to the Protest. Stay cool. The CIA will already be agitating the police as bogus protesters. Do they get paid extra for that?
The coverage across country will be minimal if at all. The media already has a statement written about the event. If 100,000 people are there, the one ten second tidbit that will be carried will be a minor disturbance. These people play dirty.
The company will be inspiring. Looking forward to hearing an account of the event from you, someone I can trust.
Toby Wollin @ 124
I’m quite glad the DC police won’t be riding goats or sheep, then :-)
oddmommy @ 130
Sorry.. I meant.. is Carville the REAL dem party then. I, with great regret, know who the little d*psh*te is
Blub @ 135
Yes. There’s Democrats, and then there’s hippies who don’t realize how awesome the war is.
Eureka Springs @ 132
let’s hear it.. )
Ding!
Blub — oops, sorry, misunderstood what you were asking.
Hey…..it really does matter what the meaning of “is” is! Clinton didn’t lie, after all…!
Toby Wollin @ 124
Horses can learn to duck under electric fencing by allowing the wire to stroke their manes, which does not conduct the electric shock, so they just duck their heads, duck their bodies and keep on going….they lead by their “heads”. They operate according to their “heads”. If their head is somewhere, the body just follows.
To explain again, Gates described a fictitious drawdown in Iraq. I used a fictitious number merely to underline the point that he could have said one or a billion. It doesn’t matter what number he used because Bush is going to keep as many troops in Iraq until he dumps this mess on to the next President. And Gates is showing that he is willing to go along with this madness. So much for him being a restraining influence, he has become another brainless enabling hack.
hey you guys coming to DC….really, DO be careful. I saw those riot police goons at the world bank protests circling the crowds so they could arrest everyone….it really does happen.
peanutbutter @ 134
Heh – yep, because whoa does NOT work on goats or sheep. A full bucket of feed, however, is a terrific incentive…
LS @ 140
So they’re kinda like the GOP.
Hugh @ 111
Oh, now I see what you’re getting at. I thought maybe you really meant Gates had said 2-3 million or maybe mistyped it and you meant 2-3 thousand. I was so in shock over the very idea of 2-3 million troops that I didn’t read it right the first time.
This is a perfectly good time to contribute to MoveOn.
Eureka Springs @ 132
Just saw their new TV ad on both tweety and one of the 6:30 “news” programs. Good thing I hadn’t put the $100. check in the mail yet; ripped it up and rewrote for $200.
NYT ad = stick finger in the thug eye
TV ad = rotate finger 360 degrees
To riff the old chewing gum slogan – double your money, double your fun.
Elliott @ 137
It’s getting more mileage than I would have dared to dream possible. Tweety is using it correectly again today.
And Rudy used it as an excuse to run a full page NYT ad against the DLC candidate Hillary today.
Toby Wollin @ 143
Just forget about using a giant tin can as armor.
Hugh @ 141
It made me laugh out loud, if that’s any consolation
Thanks, LS – i’ll break the code. I’m making macaroni and cheese as we speak – and every time, i think of Steve Gilliard who said most adamantly what i make is not macaroni and cheese but macaroni and cheese sauce. Roux plays no part in real mac and cheese.
Then on to trail mix – i bought goji berries (freakin’ expensive!) they will ensure we survivs, no doubt.
Richmond @ 119
Arlen Specter’s honesty and integrity on display in 1964:
A bullet that changes direction by 180 degrees after stopping in mid-flight after hitting one target so that it can hit a second target.
Honesty and integrity do not belong in the same sentence with the words Arlen Specter.
Eli @ 144
Yeah! That’s a good one!
The police horses seem quite abloe to trod upon people with signs, but that need not deter anyone from the permitted UFPJ marches this week.
IN the future – if we need to deny area to mounted forces – ball bearings.
Thousands of ‘em.
Not ethical once the horses are deployed (the horses avoid them because they can injure by causing unsteady footing).
And injuring horses is also illegal (as is injuring their riders).
So those using ball bearings to deter mounted forces can really only use them for passive area defense.
Still, none of this is relevant to the upcoming permitted UFPJ rallies.
peanutbutter says
September 14th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
LS @ 83
Also, shout “Whoa” loudly and raise your hands out to your sides, like a “fence”, if the horses approach. They won’t run over you if you seem bigger than they are.
Horses and cows are interesting. They won’t step across where it looks like they can break their feet. So that’s why you see gratings across road openings in fences. It can also be faked with stripes of paint. I’m wondering if it wouldn’t be possible for protesters to have striped cloth or something to put down to stop horses.
Dunno if police horses would be trained around that or not.
Eureka Springs @ 148
It was a full segment on Washington Journal this morning.
Plus the Rudy’s ad re-ran Move-on’s!
Elliott @ 150
Apologies to all, I am going to have to put up more snark alerts on my stuff.
QuakerGirl @ 133
how can they live with themselves?
Eli @ 149
lmao!
Eureka Springs @ 148
The Betray-us is on everyones lips. A great ad reflected in the new ad. I believe Move-on has made all the difference for our kind of Democrat.
Eli @ 149
bwahaaaasppft!
spew alert!
james @ 152
and also he let Ira Einhorn skip the country
new thread folks!!!
More fabulous Jane upstairs
Sorry for the drive-by, but I’m at work.
Why don’t the Democrats all get behind Edwards’ great 2-minute counter-spin to the Great Fabricator?
“No timeline, no funding. No excuses.”
Bob in HI
kirk murphy @ 154
The police horses are trained to go forward no matter what they “see”. Typically, a horse will run from an umbrella or something big flapping…they are trained to not fear that. They have a rider with a set of spurs on them that hurt. They are trained to go forward no matter what. That is a problem. They fear the pain from their rider more than what they have been desensitized to in their training. I do think, however, that if the perception of the horse is that they are in greater danger from what they are presented with, they will retreat and ignore the rider. That is the way they are.
Ball-bearings? This would be using them in a way similar to a caltrop which the Romans called tribulus.
Didn’t I just hear Howard Fineman say something like the only reasonable way to produce a change in Iraq is the way the Dems say: take the troops out and tell the Iraqi government that if they want to kill each other, go to it, but it’s up to them to…?
wow – thanks LS
poor horses.
Once again, LS, thank you so much for your description and explanation.
poor horses.
(also – if I can’t proofread well enough to get subject-verb agreement right, I should hang up my keyboard.
“seem quite able to trod upon people”
jeebus. my bad)
The answer to this is quite simple. The rest of the ‘real kool kids’ in the Senate do NOT want some populist/progressive newby showing their corrupt wrinkly asses UP!
So they sit on his legislation. Remember this is a group of fools who still let Joey the LiarMan caucus with them. A sadder group of moral cowards it would be hard to assemble.
Hugh @ 166
Caltrops…gracious me.
There’s a blast from the (Palatine-hilled) past.
EarthFirst! had rejected their use before I ever came on the scene….but seems they were believed to have stopped big trucks quite nicely.
Of course, use of such devices would cause such problems for a local campaign that caltrops were not used in US forest defense.
They have been said to have been used by citizens in other nations to prevent motorized (cycles, cars, vans, trucks) law enforcement/military from carrying out martial law activities.
Apparently, these cheap and easily constructed devices substantially degraded law enforcement/military capacity.
In cities with fragile streets – say cities built with cisterns under the streets (like those used in San Francisco) – tracked or treaded vehicles could be so large or heavy as to be effectively denied access to some streets and neighborhoods.
Caltops and similar devices – in these foreign lands – are reported to have further denied access and hence reduced the violence of those illegally imposing martial law.
For historical purposes, here’s a citation from Ecodefense about these tools of far-off lands.
james @ 152
James, please stop pimping this lie. There are enough reasons to dislike Specter without propagating a Camelot Conspiracy American Exceptionalism myth whose subtext is that you will be saved or damned by the presence or absence of some “hero.” Screw heroes. They’re all the same.
Why they haven’t used the Webb amendment? Why all this dithering, whining and caving in? Well, obviously the Republicans have been making it really crappy very quickly. However, the Dems seem to be more interested in maintaining and preserving the “gains” the “owners” have made over us, our country and our future. What Gore Vidal said is truer than ever (emphasis mine):
Now, there may be some differences, but it really seems to be only in the speed of our decline into Fascism/Corporatism and the rate in which our Constitution and the founding ideas of this country are pushed onto the trash bin of history!! The Democratic Party just seems to help the owners to stabilize the temperature, whispering its okay to the boiling frogs, lest we jump out of the pot. Then, another round of criminal republicans to turn up the heat ever higher!
Yes, let’s do what we did in 2006 and change the subject so that the party’s war hawks who slipped through then can repeat the performance on the next go. Let’s for god’s sake not ask them to defend their positions regarding the most salient aspects of the government’s foreign policy.
FighttheFuture…
you should come around here more often.
the realization is dawning that the (D)’s do not have the answers, indeed are part of the problem.
the first step is admitting there’s a problem…and the denial is finally breaking a bit, with blogs like this one explicating in detail all the capitulations and failures.
Eli @ 85
The DLCers are triangulating with the Conservatives in America (whether Republicans or just conserv Dems) and they’re leading us to an extended tour in Iraq and to a continuation of a lot of non-answer policies like “I don’t recall.” while occasionally serving their corporate funders.
We Progressives can try to take Congress by a larger margin and we can try to elect someone like Edwards, but we can’t force good things to happen through DLCers.
That’s why it’s slow-going and we’re pushing Repubs to reconsider their undying allegiance to the back-stabbing Bushies.
Without more leverage it’s hard to get much done.
With some leverage we might be able to oust Cheney and put some sanity back in the WH as we’ve accomplished (probably more by luck than anything) at DoD and through Oversight at DoJ. We’ve exposed GSA head “Cookies” Doan, but can’t force Bush to fire her.
We’ve achieved a lot, but there is still a lot to do. We need, at times, patience and at other times gutsy aggressiveness. Now is a time for steady aggression in DC and selective go-for-it aggression in up-coming campaigns for House races around the country.
This is perhaps the most complicated and difficult time since I’ve been reading blogs and watching the process. Republicans are sort of up against the wall, but they’re not collapsing just yet. House races seem to favor us, but there are a lot and our resources are finite. The Senate races favor us and might not require so much BlueAmerica money to get the best results we can hope for.
So, full steam ahead, but be patient for the results.
Eli @ 116
So, who did we lose to? You can’t lose (as a nation) without having someone to surrender to. Who do we surrender to?
Our losses were financial and in the lives of soldiers.
Still, I think the beginning of the end of the Bush admin began about 3 weeks ago and as time passes it becomes more and more clear. Already the real future course of our involvement and gradual withdrawal from Iraq is being discussed and considered. Bush isn’t part of the discussion, except for when & how he leaves.
I think Tweety’s question is right on target for this moment in time. It puts Gillespie in the awkward position of having to answer in support of the Bush position when it’s already obvious that it’s only a dream; the real answer would have to be “Yes, Americans could put up with less involvement as long as the deaths stop. But, even better would be a complete withdrawal.”
Edwards position right now is super because it really pokes the Repubs and DLC Dems in the eye. He says, no more money, no timelines and no excuses. They say, he’s right, but they won’t do it … yet. They all follow his leadership and look at the polls and then do as their advisors tell them.
John Edwards for President — Leadership, plain and simple
No one may see this post since I am a day late but I must. Lost in the fog is how many Iraqis will have to be in the army to replace the US? Currently there are about 160,000 US troops, plus about 100,000 mercenaries (I read somewhere) and around 348,000 Iraqi soldiers according to LT. Gen Dempsey in June. If we make the presumption that one US soldier with his training and support is the equivalent of two Iraqi soldiers then we have the following mathematical result: 348,000 Iraqi 320, 000 Iraqi (US equivalent) and 100,000 mercenary=766,000 Iraqi troops AND THE PLACE IS STILL NOT SECURE! Therefore they will need MORE Iraqi troops to gain security. Lets say another 250,000. That comes to 1,000,000 Iraqi soldiers. Nearly triple what they currently have. It has taken six years to get 348,000. That works out to 18 years to train enough for security. Now my numbers are fantasy, but it should be obvious that Iraq needs multiple times what they currently have to succeed. We will never get out unless we get out.
Check Out SourceWatch On These Guys!
SourceWatch says:
“Its primary mission is to shape the perception that the group installed into power in a targeted country has broad popular support.”
Well, of course, they’d never dream of doing that here, right?
There’s more, but that’s why God invented links