Today is the 6th anniversary of Barbara Lee’s sole “no” vote on the AUMF. I watched her speech again this morning and it still gave me chills. I was in Tennessee at the time of 9/11 and even my wingy relatives who thought she should be shot for her vote had to admit that at the time it took real guts. You can hear her voice shaking when she gives her statement but also hear the stirring sound of conviction. I can’t remember another moment in recent history you could point to in which someone showed such leadeship and courage. Everything around her was pointing her toward the easy out, and nobody would have blamed her if she’d taken it. The only thing she was guaranteed to receive as the result of her vote was right wing vilification, which she most certainly did.
It was, and is, awe inspiring.
In addition to being a fellow Mills College graduate, Barbara is one of three co-chairs of the Progressive Caucus and she is currently circulating a letter to George Bush opposing any funding for Iraq that does not fully bring our troops home. She’s got 78 signers and she is looking for 100 by the end of September, so please contact your congressperson and ask them to co-sign (you can see a list of those who have already signed here).
People want real leadership in the Democratic Party, true conviction, not just vote pandering. Barbara Lee has demonstrated under really tough circumstances that she is a leader of conscience and strength. She deserves our thanks, our respect and our support.
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Hi jane
Jane!
Wow.
Zed!
Yes! Kudos to Barbara Lee. Would that more Dems had her courage!
Thanks for reminding us, Jane.
Coach says I’m s-l-o-w.
Condi Rice ticky tacky news
http://rawstory.com//news/2007….._0914.html
After his ball of fire speech last Monday, I wonder why my rep Lantos hasn’t signed it yet…
(((((((Jane)))))))
Barbara for President!
Wonder why Kessler is after Condi Rice?
{{{{{{{{{{Jane!!!!!}}}}}}}}}}
A couple of typos:
…speech again
itthis morning…and
…letter to George Bush
toopposing any funding“People want real leadership in the Democratic Party, true conviction, not just vote pandering.”
Ain’t it the truth.
I’m contacting my Rep, about signing it! I’m positive she’ll join, Hawaii’s other rep has already signed on!
I’m proud to have a congresswoman who represents my beliefs. Thanks for reminding us of this, Jane.
I just watched the video and it is very moving, esp. considering where we were then, and where we are now.
Thanks for posting this Jane, because I had not seen it before.
And then there’s HRC.
I’m so proud to have Barbara Lee as my congressperson.
Thanks for sharing this with everybody, Jane.
More like Barbara Lee, please. I am filled with admiration.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..49_pf.html
Kessler and A*P*C
Media Tangled in Lobbyist Case
Press Freedoms Debated After Wiretapping of Call to Reporter
By Howard Kurtz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, November 12, 2005; A10
On July 21, 2004, two pro-Israel lobbyists called Washington Post reporter Glenn Kessler to pass on information that they said was from “an American intelligence source” — a source they declined to identify.
The two men assured Kessler that the mystery source was “100 percent credible” and had information about an Iranian plot to kill
Americans and Israelis in Iraq
————
Condi Rice will “allegedly” be called to testify in the A*P*C trial.
http://www.washingtontimes.com…..10081/1002
Why is this so hard?
She was right then, she is right now. I’ll get on the phone in a couple of minutes.
Oh Jane, Barbara Lee is good. Thanks for reminding us of what a great American she is.
Her fellow democrats need to see that speech.
They have their heads in the sands of Bush ME war theatre.
I think it’s the 5th anniversary, right?
Just a friendly reminder: Out of respect for the author and as a general rule, please try to stay on topic. Thanks.
Thanks for reminding us Jane
jim oconnor @ 19
The American Revolutionary War was hard too, and so was the writing of the Constitution which we must all rally to defend against the gang in Washington. But freedom is hard. And that’s why this is hard. Like most of you, I have other things to do, but I put this first, because without it, I’ll soon have nothing to do that I can do freely.
thank you babara lee… and thank you jane for that tribute. just 3 days after 911 and she had not lost her conscience, her intellect or her courage. and she was right.
here in blue MA, and in a university, she was condemned by everyone i knew (only one person told me they thought “bombing afghanistan back to the stone age” was wrong – and that was my brother). the insanity of the blood lust and anti-arab, anti-muslim bigotry of the weeks after 911 caused me to lose my faith in human kind for a time. (and threw me into the anti-war movement… so that i could find some island of sanity)
just think if we’d decided to go after the guilty instead of droping cluster bombs from 30,000 feet…. OBL would be in prison and hundreds of thousands of people would still be alive.
oh, for a congress filled with barbara lees… and a president with her moral courage. i really do think that a someone like barbara lee could have led us out of our blood lust and towards courage and justice.
Here are the last couple of paragraphs of Joeseph Galloway’s commentary on Bush last night:
That is very hope-inspiring to see. What a woman of principle. I hope that other Congresspeople will learn from her example.
Just wrote Arcuri to sign.
Favorite bumpersticker around my Mills College-area neighborhood (in Lee’s district):
Barbara Lee Speaks For Me!
That one started appearing right after that important vote 6 years ago. Thank you, Jane, for reminding us of Barbara Lee’s courage.
Go Mills Grads!
Jane Writes:
I am so proud that Barbara Lee speaks for me.
David in Oakland
“As we act, let US not become the evil that we deplore.”
Bless you, Barbara; bless you, Jane; and bless all my friends in the East Bay who keep returning this great voice of conscience to the Congress!
Where is hell is Nancy?
I think we need some slogans to throw back in the faces of the White House, Republicans, and the media in their never-ending search to sell this war.
My suggestion is: How many more have to die for your mistakes?
Courage like that of Barbara Lee deserves a better home than the timid, rotted, co-opted shell of the (D) party.
if there was a viable progressive party in congress, members like her and what few other principled (D)’s there were could vote with it, and enhance their leverage with the other fainting goats and the Leadership.
The Lurking Mod @ 22
I actually don’t care. OT is fine for me.
Are folks hearing much chatter about the John
Edwards speech after Bush’ last night?
Edwards five minutes “no timeline, no funding, no excuses” Of course our Reps want this shut down.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..ge-speech/
What Jane and Selise said…
My Congresscritter’s Pelosi – I’ll try my best….
OK, I just sent BL’s letter over to my rep’s office. Felt good!
Hugh @ 32
saw a great bumper sticker this week:
Defend America.
Defeat Bush.
AZ Matt @ 27
Ah yes, but there was a middle aged woman who lost a son, and then a marriage as a result of this madness. She went to Crawford, Texas and showed us all what has to be done. Congressional Dems don’t like her much. Maybe we should politely invite one of them to leave, and politely ask her to serve us in their place.
Casey Sheehan died for this country. His mother, apparently, is living for it. Should we not give her a place in the halls of “power” to carry on our fight?
The thinking here is perhaps we need to evaluate exactly what it is that we are looking for when we say we are seeking a leader. And who it is that fits the bill.
This is the blurb up at the NYT:
This kind of headlining really makes me wonder what universe the media live in. One thing is for sure it doesn’t look anything like mine.
Okay, I’m in. I can’t do the youtubie thing but I saw BL on Cspan a couple years back speaking out — hear that Dems, “speaking out!” — on some Bushco atrocity. She kicked butt. We need more like her.
Building on that speech’s momentum will bring the same outcome as multiplying by zero.
I for one would love to see a debate between Ms. Lee and Ms. Clinton.
Thanks for this, Jane.
I sent the letter to my Representative.
Congressman Jerry McNerney.
Hmmmm. We shall see . . .
Hugh @ 43
I do love Froomkin’s headline (which I think you saw)
It Came from Planet Bush.
Brilliant!
do-si-do @ 39
or
…..”How many kids have you killed today?”
As in “Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids have you killed today?”
Unfortunately, my Congress Critters are red, reactionary fascists with stalling tendencies.
Glad to see that both my old CA rep (Pete Stark) and new MO rep (Emanuel Cleaver) are on the list already. Still, a call to say “thanks” might be in order.
cynic @ 39
Sheehan, Dean, and Lamont, Feingold, Kuchinich, Makie Gravel have all shown us a glimpse of what real leadership can do.
Set your own terms of debate, and don’t back down. Most of the rest of the national (D)’s roost somewhere between cowardice and complicity with the crimes of the Regime.
I expect a press conference by next Wednesday from Ted Stevens’s office announcing his intention to retire at the end of this term. Don Young’s got another two weeks or so…
Yesterday, in the State Rep. Pete Kott corruption trial in Anchorage, the convicted former CEO of Veco admitted that he had pled guilty to, among other things, bribing Ted’s son Ben when Ben was President of the Alaska Senate. Today, Allen appears to have testified to bribing Ted Stevens by providing months of free labor and materials in the remodeling of Stevens’s Girdwood, Alaska home.
Just sent an e-mail to Pelosi asking that she show the courage that Barbara Lee did and do the right thing. Fingers crossed.
The Sunday after her vote the pastor in my church (at the time) actually went on a rant against her in the middle of church.
Needless to say we left that church. Especially since he also started doing the Pledge of Allegiance instead of the normal call to worship. BTW, he was fired from the small, rural church shortly after that — apparently we weren’t the only rural folk in our red state who thought he went WAY over the line.
And in contrast, I just got the weekly e-mail from my current congressman, Joe Donnelly. I swear he was practically fellating general Betrayus with his praise in the e-mail. It was truly disgusting. I was so relieved to be rid of Chris Chocola, but it seems Donnelly is not much better.
sporkovat @ 51
Yup.
ChickenMan @ 21
6th…
Ed*ard Teller @ 51
Are they going to build a new wing on the prison up there for the former GOP officeholders? Obviously, it ought to be on the right side of the facility. . .
Peterr @ 56
And will they have access to the toobz?
Last Sunday, we had a rabid man of the cloth telling us that we were “sick” if we didn’t wait to hear what Petraeus said, before forming an opinion on the war.
lol
Ms. Lee is simply wonderful. How must it feel for anybody who has lost someone in this horrible war to listen to her words again?
People jibberjabber about failure in Iraq: When will it be official? Who will be stuck with the blame?
I tell you, this is the day we failed in Iraq. The day Barbara Lee said no, but everyone else said yes.
My sensei used to tell me: If you’ve lost so much control of yourself that you throw a punch, you have already lost the fight.
Democrats should refuse to discuss who will be blamed for failure in Iraq. George Bush failed in Iraq the day he ordered military intervention. Hearing Congresswoman Lee’s words again reinforces how true that is.
do-si-do #46
Indeed I did see it. Bush and the media deal with reality by ignoring it.
remind some of us, please, what does AUMF stand for?
OT but for readers of the SF Chronicle:
Hugh @ 44
You mean your universe doesn’t look like this?!?
Cocktail weenies abound! And if you scroll down enough, you get to see Babs Comstock yukkin it up. Yuck…
This is why things are the way they are in our media.
andhowe @ 64
Authorization for the Use of Miltary Force.
Peterr @ 59
They’re all being prosecuted under Federal law – so far. There is no Federal prison in Alaska. It’s beginning to look like Stevens should have come up with an earmark for one back when he had the clout to get away with it. When he goes down, I suppose there will be a whole lot of public facility renaming up here.
Thw current State AG is a family friend, and I suspect he’ll end up being busy on the tailings of this strip mining of sleaze.
Twain @ 60
Boobz Toobz?
or
innocence a broad(castin’)?
Was this AUMF just for Afghanistan? There was another AUMF in Oct. 2002 for Iraq, I think. Am I remembering this correctly?
I’m so glad you posted this, Jane. I’d never seen it.
do-si-do @ 58
That kind of attitude drives me crazy. Like the last 4 1/2 years haven’t given us a clue, or that Bush didn’t choose Petraeus precisely because he backed Bush’s whole “surge” stay-in-Iraq-forever policy. Incredible.
My own critter, Keith Ellison MN-05, has already signed it. No surprise there.
To do what Barbara Lee, an African-American woman, did on September 14, 2001, in the wake of 9/11, takes some guts, some courage, some conviction.
We need a couple of dozen more Barbara Lees in the next congress all shapes sizes genders and ages. She has been right and the supposed wise people have been wrong, and on their own bottom-line terms (which must infuriate those miserable corrupt incompetents). Barbara Lee knows how to keep this country strong, safe, and a leader in the world and the putzes you see every week on TV do not.
Can’t find a certain leader on the list, so will call.
I think the effort will be gesture, but some gestures are important to make. Like some of her votes could be considered gestures, but actually were extremely important, and I think will be remembered as proud moments in our country’s history during a dark period.
I think the invasion of Afghanistan was justified, but it was not the only course we could have taken. Others may have worked as well or better. As for that particular vote, I didn’t support it, since it gave to much power to people who did not deserve to have it, and we know now that the administration was working to betray the nation’s trust even before congress had time to meet.
Do I realize that in a little more than a year this nation will be electing a new president? A new leader of the free-world. The most powerful person on the planet. You bet I do.
Yeh Barbara! Yeh California ! :)
I meant to say I didn’t supprort Congress’ decision, I supported Barbara Lee’s vote.
TheOtherWA @ 70
Yep. And Barbara Lee went against the grain and the timbre…
AZ Matt @ 62
Noooooooo!
Folks, Frank covered — and skewered — local politics like no one else I’ve ever seen, except perhaps the late Mike Royko in Chicago. Royko did it in a column, and Frank did it in three panels.
RIP, Phil . . . and say hi to Herb Caen.
do-si-do @ 58
It’s folks like this that give “men of the cloth” a bad name.
Grrrrr. . .
74 Oklahoma kiddo says September 14th, 2007 at 1:12 pm.
Yes, but that is dicey because process is dicey.
Congress! Think Congress! It will keep your spirits up. I am convinced that there can be dozen or so more like her next session.
Lynn Woolsey is my member of Congress so I think I will spend some time calling friends who live in Mike Thompson’s district or the lovely Ellen Tauscher
bonkers @ 63
The cookie of the NBC peacock pretty much says it all.
Biodun @ 77
You wood do that;
pitch, something
like that into a
sound discussion.
Forgive me.
ed teller, i left you a delicious recipe at 181 last thread. had to step away, don’t know if you got it………
great thread jane…….
re: leaders………they show the way by moving in that direction…….
Jane, The AUMF was written too broadly, I’ll grant you that but it was supposed to be directed against those who attacked us on September 11.
Now, I respect dissenters and Lee is entitled but in this case, I *wanted* our army to kick the $%^@ out of Afghanistan, the Taliban, Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
It wouldn’t have mattered *who* had been the president in 2001, that sucker would have passed in overwhelming numbers.
The Constitution says (among other things) that the President shall be the chief executive. It does not say (and would never have said) that he shall be the King….or the Decider….or whatever nonesense this man Boooosh has arrogated unto himself.
Ms. Lee’s opinion should have been the majority opinion…or at least not the lone sane voice in the entire Congressional body. But I suppose that the kind of courage she has comes from growing up the descendent of people who have been in this country for a very long time and who, in spite of the way most of them were treated, produced many great voices of reason. Let us pray that some members of Congress who are not descendent from people who were so badly mistreated in this country can find the wisdom and the courage to join Ms. Lee.
The New Osama Collection by Mark Fiore!!
if only more reps had the spine of rep barbara lee… we wouldn’t be in the shape the country’s in imo…
Well said, Jane. Barbara Lee is a genuine leader. Dem hopefuls: take note.
andhowe @ 64
Auhtorization of the Use of Military Force.
This was passed unanimously, with the sole and only exception of Barbara Lee on September 18, 2001.
(Not to be confused with the Iraq war resolution a year or so later.)
We have the mere form, the empty exhasuted shell, of representative democracy now, not the substance. A good congress needed to renew the substance, and more people like Rep Lee is what is needed. And I think that is more reliably do-able by ordinary people than getting good person in the presidency. Don’t need no superman or women president to come in to save us. Need a real congress, so we can learn that we can save ourselves, through our own efforts.
thanks for this post. It lifted my spirits during a glum lunch hour following the disgraceful political shows broadcast M-Th this week.
she’s following in ron dellums footpaths for those who remember rep dellums….
As compared and contrasted to the stuff leaders are not made of:
Is Harry Reid simply trying to go through the motions again, after ensuring defeat in advance?
Starting 15:45 in on the C-SPAN video of the 9/12/07 Harry Reid/Carl Levin/Jack Reed press conference on Iraq:
The video is available under “Recent Programs” here:
http://c-span.org/
Questions:
1. Why does Harry Reid “prefer” freestanding amendments regarding Iraq (which would be easy to filibuster, and easy for Bush to veto).
2. Why does Harry Reid not want to use the leverage that the Defense Authorization Bill represents to give an actual course change in Iraq the best shot at becoming law? [Reid pulled this bill from the floor after the all-night filibuster “event” specifically to allow its leverage to remain available at a later date.]
3. What does Harry Reid mean when he says he has “to get unanimous consent to” amend the FY 2008 Defense Authorization Bill? Does he mean that the Republican Party would object to Democrats having the leverage of that bill to use to change policy in Iraq, so Harry Reid won’t buck their party? And instead Reid will go, hat in hand, to Mitch McConnell and arrange a UC agreement offering a handful of toothless Democratic stand-alone amendments in exchange for a handful of specious Republican stand-along amendments, and call it a day?
[Note that this press conference took place at around 1:45 p.m. Wednesday, after a meeting of the Senate Democratic caucus where agreement to start drafting certain (unspecified) amendments was reached. Aren’t any Democratic Senators getting even a little bit humiliated by the unbelievably limp, unprincipled, careless, craven, laughable “leadership” to which they all continue to (publicly) submit, apparently from some dreadful misplaced sense of “loyalty to party and seniority”??]
Since I first posted this transcript excerpt yesterday, the course ahead has probably been settled upon for next week’s action, behind the closed doors of the Senate Democratic caucus and leadership’s offices. As with FISA, what we see beginning Monday afternoon on the Senate floor will be a pre-planned performance, unless some principled Senators follow the example of Barbara Lee and decide to make a real difference by publicly confronting and opposing their slippery, ‘it’s just politics’ party leadership.
To make a profound difference only requires 40 Senators to unite and declare that no supplemental funding for any occupation of Iraqi territory will be passing the Senate unless it specifically provides for an orderly but ASAP withdrawal, by an end-date certain, of our military and civilian forces now in Iraq. It’s not just the House that can swing this debate 180 degrees around by exerting the will of the Legislative Branch on behalf of the American people.
P.S. Thanks to zennurse for liveblogging this press conference and thus alerting us to these (apparently unreported) comments by Reid.
1,598 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen LindaR and the Firepup Patriots:
“I tell you, this is the day we failed in Iraq. The day Barbara Lee said no and everyone else said yes…George Bush failed in Iraq the day he ordered military intervention.”
Testify, sister Linda, bring it DOWN, girl!! The strategy of the Bush fascist ideology is for the federal state and, thus, democracy to fail EVERYwhere…New Orleans, Iraq, Afghanistan, public education…this is the political goal of fascism and the American oligarchy and the America Firsters learned it from Hitler and were prepared to ride that strategy to power in the 1930’s but a crippled plutocrat named Franklin Roosevelt fucked ‘em without even unzippin his pants. By the way, Clusterfuck’s grandfather, Prescott Bush was an America Firster and actually was caught doin’ business with Hitler DURIN” THE WAR, fer Christ’s sake!! The power of the American oligarchy is such that Prescott actually was rehabilitated for heaven’s sake and took a Senate seat in Connecticut after the war and joined the likeS of Henry Ford, IBM and many others who profited from investments in the Krupps, Nazi armaments and Hitler’s economy of war.
What is wrong with us in this country…the Bush administration is a linear descendant of the fascism of Germany and Italy and the same families and same corporate holding companies for the oligarchy then hold power right this minute.
So let’s not focus ANY energy on tryin’ ta get 60 votes in the Senate or pressure any “moderates” in the fascist party to bail on Bush. Let’s organize and demonstrate truth to power in the Democratic Party…let ‘em know that no Democrat anywhere ken win a contest for dog-catcher without the mass of people in our street. We’ve gotta be able to convince the fascist fellow travelers in the Democratic leadership (read Mr. and Mrs. Clinton here) that we will blow up the existing rotten party and rebuild it without ‘em if they don’t get with the program or get outta the way.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LET THE BASTARDS SCARE YA!!
Toby Wollin @ 31
I will too.
But, I’m confused. She was the ’sole no vote’?
juslin @ 92
Isn’t he the mayor of Oakland now?
NorskeFlamethrower @ 92
What he said! Yeah!
tithonia@96
nooooooooo he’s not the mayor of oakland…..
Kathleen @ 8
Gee, just in time to ditract everyone from talking about SHrubya’s decision to keep our children in harm’s way in Iraq 4-evah!
Bright shiny object people.
Let Condi diddle whomever she chooses. I don’t give a rat’s ass.
George Bush is going to force more of our children to die!!!! Pay attention.
Goddamn Norske. I’m gonna print that out, commit it to memory, and use it for any political conversation I ever get in. Excellent summation.
Solai @ 95
Yes. Don’t confuse this one with the later Iraq war vote, which had quite a few more naysayers but still passed with wide margins (a wide stance?)…
New bumper sticker…
Hillary..she’s no Barbara Lee.
juslin @ 98
Actually he is per wiki
85 portia.vz says September 14th, 2007 at 1:
I respect your views. But if invasion of Afghanistan was needed, could have done just the same without that particular AUMF. As I said, it gave to much power away. What has been the result? Iraq, which has undone much of the work done in Afghanistan.
Look at it this way. Lee is what the pathetic Cheney and dub wish to be in their dreams: cool, calm, collected, objective, wise and thoughtful in a crisis. On their own authoritarian bid-daddy he-man terms, Rep Lee has beaten them at every turn on the he-man bottom line: She was right about what would happen, bottom-line, and they were wrong. Period. Prediction is hard, especially about the future, goes the famous saying.
Lee was right and the rest of the Dems were wrong too. They made a very serious mistake in giving away that much power to an incompetnet, corrupt and ruthless administratin.
Remember, the day after 9/11, the Cheney-bush team was planning all sorts of stupid, incompetent, counterproductive, corrupt junk, that would not help us with the efforts against Al Qaeda at all, and that in fact would harm that effort.
There again, on the bottom line authoritarian big-daddy terms, Rep Lee was right and everyone else was wrong. She beat them on their won terms.
Get 20 more or os like her in congress and things can change for the better.
juslin @ 98
He most coitanly is. (Mayor Dellums’ website)
wesgpc @ 104
I quite agree. The broadness of the AUMF already illustrates the power grabs that this administration was working on. I’d love to know who put the text together behind the scenes.
Norske -
I walk away for a
moment and you nail
it!
You and Scarecrow
are HOT!!! today.
Laura Doty @ 105
Jerry Brown was the mayor, and moved on to the post of California Attorney General.
New Jane upstairs.
wesqpc @ 104
Nails it as well!
Going to be a great thread!
Yes,yes!
i stand corrected… former cali speaker of the house was the former mayor as well
O.K. so will the next one!!
NorskeFlamethrower @ 94
Crucial historical background:
http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm
looseheadprop @ 99
I’m not suggesting we all fixate on Condi’s sexual orientation (about which I also do not give a shit), but this is the point of the article:
if she’s gay, she’s another, and worse, mary cheney.
Many thanks Jane – was surprised my Rep. Sam Farr had not signed on and just spoke with a local and DC staffer. Fairly confident he will get on board sooner than later.
I appreciate Ms. Lee’s courage and principled stand, but that was the wrong vote. The Afghanistan AUMF, authorizing the military pursuit of “those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States” was the right thing to do at the time, regardless of who was president, and it is wrong and disingenuous to conflate it with the too broad Iraq AUMF.
She was and is living in the land of Oz. The U.S. would never under any President not strike back if this country is attacked.
Not agreeing with the Iraq war is one thing, but to think we shouldn’t have attacked Al-Qaeda’s home base in Afghanistan is ridiculous.
That is the epitome of hippie bullshit.
tib @ 116
Beg to differ. As Rep. Lee said, “…military action will not prevent further acts of international terrorism against the United States.”
There was NOT just one way to respond. I remember many reports even at that time, some from former military top brass, saying that sending a huge military force against a small band of radicals is likely to be counterproductive.
There was considerable “collateral damage” done to innocent Afghans when America invaded their country chasing the Taliban and bin Forgotten. Imagine if your local police stormed your neighbors house suspecting they were criminals, and were allowed to shoot at will and lob grenades into the house to “root them out.” If your child just happened to be playing nearby and got killed, oh well, at least they got some crooks off the street. You think that would go over well?
That’s basically what happened in Afghanistan, and to make it worse, we didn’t even get our man!
How about committing incredible amounts of resources to Special Forces and Intelligence operations, rather than sending a massive military force to invade a country and then let targets get away? Wasn’t that a worthy alternative? The Afghanistan AUMF was not necessarily “the right decision” as you say…
But this is all assuming bin Laden is real and stopping terrorism is the real goal of the neocons, which is all very much in doubt.
bonkers @ 118
If by “assuming bin laden is real…” you mean to imply that he isn’t, then I don’t really know where the conversation can really go from here.
Chris Jones @ 117
Can we agree that terrorism will always exist in many different forms, just as it always has? There will always be extremists. So what do you do about it?
Sending a huge military contingent after any small band of attackers is not the only option, as I said in comment #118. How about another alternative:
60 Minutes did a feature after the Afghan earthquakes where a bunch of 9/11 rescue workers went there to help the rescue efforts in small villages. The locals were quite suspicious of Americans at first, but by the end it was like they had all gone to war together, they were so tight. Imagine this happening on a large scale across the entire country, which would cost a tiny fraction of what has been spent on Iraq/Afghan so far. There would be so much support for America, that the Afghans themselves would root out al-Qaeda for us! Then, use this model across the world. An eye for an eye leaves us all blind, and to me this approach makes alot of sense.
Kill al-Qaeda with kindness. Is that not an option worth considering? I suppose that’s just more “hippee bullshit,” huh?
A friend of mine in college was an exiled South African. Many nights we discussed poetry, literature, history, and humanity. He always spoke from a place deep inside of him. It was a place of authority and wisdom. I always marveled at this.
Just this morning I googled him to see if there was any new news on him. I found a 2006 article written by him entitled “A leader must not fear being unpopular”. There are too many excerpts from it that I could post. I recommend you all read it. It is brief, poetic, and very much on-topic with this thread.
In part he writes:
Leaders should not mirror what the led are yearning for when they know the dangers of what is being asked. They do not abdicate their responsibility by becoming caves, echoing the many voices. Rather, they trumpet what is right and what is for the greater good.
http://www.businessday.co.za/a…..BD4A105701
bonkers @ 119
We can agree that terrorism itself will always exist, but killing Al-Qaeda with kindness is indeed more hippie bullshit.
The whole peace and love solves everything sounds good in theory, but it’s just not the way it works in the real world. Maybe it should, but it doesn’t and it never will.
That particular AUMF was not the same taking military action against Afghanistan. The military action we actually did take against Afghanistan could have happened with another, better, AUMF. I in fact do think the Afghanistan invastion was justified, perhpas it was the best course. We will never know for sure.
That congressional vote was a panic decsision and a bad vote that set a bad precedent, and gave too much authority to Cheney and bush, and started us down the road to Iraq, which has undone most of the success we achieved in Afghanistan and against Al Qaeda. That is a fact that is difficult to argue with, I think. I think Lee was right on that vote.
This is not hippie bullshit, this about making cool calm, deliberate and considered decisions in a crisis that lead to most effective and successful results. That is real leadership. Unfortunately, we did not have capable leadership either in congress or executive at that time, and do we not have it now. This is about real leadership in a crisis.
Chris Jones @ 117
everyone agrees about striking back. the point is to direct the strike at those who are actually to blame.
so what happened? – OBL lives free and afghanis suffer. what we did was both stupid and morally indefensible.
Of course it doesn’t solve everything, but it solves a lot of things, and in a way that creates lasting good will…and that’s why, even though it won’t always work, it should always be the first option. Then, if it doesn’t work, one is morally free to pursue less-loving methods. Or sometimes even back down completely, which is he honorable thing to do when one is wrong.
wesgpc @ 123
perhaps an invasion was justified. but, the one we actually did was not.
Chris Jones @ 122
We have real world results from sending a massive military force into Afghanistan right now.
Our real world today has America hated more than ever in my entire life. Afghanistan is spiraling out of control. Our military is stretched more thinly than probably anytime in history. Our National Guard is depleted here at home beyond belief. Our country is way beyond the previous record debt, and that debt is growing rapidly.
Oh yea, and al-Qaeda is alive and well, in fact they’re so strong now they can form a powerful force (so we’re told incessantly) in a foreign country they never existed in before – Iraq. (you disagree with any of these?)
So we’re much less safe now than ever, in my opinion. Not to mention how this blind trust of our “leaders” is letting them completely destroy our government and Constitution.
Sorry, but don’t understand how people can be so cavalier about saying what we did in response to 9/11 was the best decision, without considering that there might have been better options, since the results have been so pathetic.
YeeeeeHaaawww! is not a foreign policy.
selise @ 126
This is my feeling as well.
A Mea Culpa for Afghanistan
List of Senators who voted no on this
Home > Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote
U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 107th Congress – 2nd Session
as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate
Vote Summary
Question: On the Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 )
Vote Number: 237 Vote Date: October 11, 2002, 12:50 AM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Joint Resolution Passed
Measure Number: H.J.Res. 114
Measure Title: A joint resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Vote Counts: YEAs 77
NAYs 23
Vote Summary By Senator Name By Vote Position By Home State
NAYs —23
Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Chafee (R-RI)
Conrad (D-ND)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wellstone (D-MN)
Wyden (D-OR)
RonD @ 128
that was beautiful.
i guess we have to remember that wars are not ponies. our politicians work very hard to convince us that our best wishes and desires can be achieved through war. but that is seldom (or never) the case.
Jane Hamsher @ 37
I think it is interesting who is trying to focus that attention on her. Glenn Kessler..why all of a sudden is he digging around on her private life.
Condi will most likely testify in the A*P*C case. Kessler is one of the reporters who Rosen and Weissman contacted regarding classified intelligence on Iran
OOps that last response was supposed to go on comments from Oddmommy and LHP back at 114. Why is Kessler after Condi? Hmmm got to be more than a gay thing
Kathleen @ 131
Wow. Good pick up. Awfully strange co-inky-dink.
What a beautiful way to end the speech, quoting from a member of the clergy, “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” If only….
I’m pleased to note that my representative, Jim Moran (VA), has signed on.
B Goetz @ 129
Wrong AUMF, HJ 114 is the Iraq AUMF, which was too broad, Barbara Lee is addressing the Afghanistan AMF, HJ 64. The Senate version of HJ 64 is SJ 23, which passed 98-0.
Hi, I made a trackback to this post, but it got deleted…as spam? Is there a notrackback policy here?
Mandos @ 136
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