Matt Stoller takes up the subject of “risk-averse” progressive culture, and uses the MoveOn ad regarding General Petraeus as an example of wherein the problem lies. He points to one particularly infuriating email from The Truman Project, in which they encourage their progressive veterans to denounce MoveOn:
Those of you who saw the NYTimes today saw that MoveOn took out a full page ad equating Petraeus with “Betray Us” and accusing him of politicizing the military.
In one fell swoop, they have undone massive work by countless progressives trying to bridge the gap with the military and reconnect.
What’s this “we,” kemosabe? MoveOn is always out there, fighting the good fight, they’ve done more to move the anti-war dialog in this country than just about any organization I know. They will, as a result, always inevitably be the target of the right. I do think it’s possible to have differences of opinion in good faith about the ad, but when people start to claim the progress made by “progressives” as their own, and MoveOn is something suddenly outside of that, it’s just spurious bullshit.
I’m sorry, John Kerry, but you don’t help the right wing out. Ever. Now they’ve got Diaper Dave out there leading the battle cry, trying to reclaim himself by introducing resolutions to denounce MoveOn. Does Kerry really not know how it works at this point? Paul Krugman does, and he lays it out extremely well in a review of Jon Chiat’s new book:
Jon talks at some length about the media, and in particular about the Republican ability to get journalists to harp endlessly on supposed character flaws of Democrats, while their own candidates get a free pass. He emphasizes the right-wing echo chamber, but there’s more to it than that. It’s also – as I can report from my own experience – a result of asymmetrical intimidation. Quite simply, if you point out character flaws in a conservative, there will be an all-out effort, involving major media as well as blogs and talk radio, to discredit and ruin you, personally. This just doesn’t happen on the other side.
So journalists feel that it’s safe to ridicule Democrats, even if the supposed character-defining episode never happened; they choke up and shy away when it comes to Republicans. That’s why even the most grotesque stuff, like Giuliani’s claim that he’s a rescue worker too, or Romney’s remark that his sons are serving the country by helping him become president, doesn’t get picked up.
One of the most frustrating things about getting involved in the political process with Blue America is that we have to confront on a daily basis how little our representatives know about how the media works, how thoroughly it has been gamed by conservatives and how easily they consistently get played. They’re so anxious to please, to seem “reasonable,” that their reflex is to repeat canards about “those crazy blogs” (or MoveOn or anybody else trying to build progressive infrastructure) without any awareness that they are planting a knife squarely in the back of the only message machine that exists to combat a rabid right wing that doesn’t just want to see them disempowered, it wants them destroyed. Permanently.
I realize many Democrats are just as frightened of the progressive movement as they are of the Republicans and were probably quite gleeful about getting to take MoveOn down a peg, but this only goes to underscore how woefully out of touch they are with what is going on in this country and how distant the perspective of the voting public is from the wisdom of the beltway brahmins. Markos fielded the question of the MoveOn ad beautifully on Hardball yesterday:
To me, you know, way out in California, it’s almost amusing to see how in Washington DC, everybody is all up in arms over an ad. You know, we’re in the middle of this bloody war, almost 4,000 dead, half a trillion dollars spent, and people are going to talk about how inappropriate an ad is? I think it’s patently ridiculous. And most people, outside of this sort of Beltway environment really don’t care about an ad. They want to see our men and women coming home, safe and sound to their families.
The MoveOn ad said what Democrats could not and survive politically — Petraeus is acting as a politician, doing a politican’s job of spinning and his actions are not above criticism just because he’s got a bunch of ribbons on his chest that George Bush would like to hide behind. And it traveled. To join with the right and start firing arrows into their backs is both destructive from a movement perspective and displays tremendous naivite about what it’s going to take to end this war. So unless there is some mysterious wisdom in taking one’s messaging cues from Diaper Dave Vitter, people who want to be part of the solution and not a part of the problem should find another way to engage in this conversation.
(h/t Phoenix Woman for the Krugman post)
Related posts:





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

huh? Oh, this cannot be.
The Accidental Zeddist
….or not
Congrat, cleter.
I told the gang in the last thread that I was fair…*g*
Dommage, punaise. Un de ces jours…
Is the blog broken or something? How did I slip through?
heh.
single digits…
No question but that the ‘Democrat’ Party has no idea of what the country is thinking. That’s why I posted:
Why I am an Idiot!
And why every democratic ‘consultant’ and staffer should be made to go to the blackboard and write same…
One thousand times.
Hello, Jane…
Excellente, Jane, and possible single digits.
Diaper Dave wants to denounce MoveOn’s ad?
Erm, protected political speech, anyone???
Good god, do none of these reactionaries actually ever READ the constitution?
There were Guiliani people campaigning on campus yesterday–though their permit was for a “9/11 memorial”–and I though that was a lot more distasteful and disrespectful than the MoveOn ad.
I don’t care HOW Petraeus, et al. try to couch his testimony – he was doing what Bush and Cheney wanted him to do and say. He’s a shill. Soldiers count on their commanders to be leaders – and that means that they depend on them for their best judgement and independence. I wouldn’t trust Petraeus to get me across the street – he’d be checking with the Chief Chimpaholic for directions first.
Hi Jane – Yes, I agree. Democrats are terrified of Progressives. They are just like the Democratic Party in 1896 when they were losing to the Progressive Party. They had sold out to corporations and were running scared. So, history repeats itself in the 21 century style.
Thanks for standing with MoveOn. It’s time for me to make another contribution to them.
Brava Jane!!!!!
QuakerGirl @ 13
The GOP has been demonizing Progressives for how long? One of the major problems with the Democratic Party is they STILL allow the GOP to define the issues and form the message that gets out. “Progressive”? Shoot..no one in his right mind would want to even get close to one. We all ought to have to make a small child walk in front of us with a bell and a sign like they did to lepers in the old days so that the populace can run away.
A-fucking-men.
‘Progressive’ is just another word for caring about a square deal, a fair deal, justice and accountablity. I think much of the demonization of progressives like me are beamed by not just the Republicans and blue dogs etc., but by the DLC as well. Many in my party are not looking at the big picture. Progressives are “the base”.
Define “far enough”.
AP – Senate Democratic leaders on Wednesday rejected the call by the top U.S. general in Iraq for a reduction of up to 30,000 U.S. troops in Iraq by next summer, saying it does not go far enough.
Jane,
Brilliantly said.
Thank you.
Amen!
peanutbutter @ 10
No.
Another example of simple answers to simple (rhetorical) questions. ;})
For those of us who have never been averse to sticking our tongues out at the idiots in charge it is a bit disheartening when many “progressives” forget that we need to assert ourselves…calmly is best, forcefully if required, into the great national dialog for our collective soul (not to mention the Constitution).
John Kerry, even after his loss in ‘04 still seems to think that being courtly/gallant/gentlemanly will win against the likes of Rove/Thompkins/the RNC. Yo, John, does the name “Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth” ring a bell or two?
I’m unemployed right now, but MoveOn will get $10 from me next time I get a paycheck. Gar-on-teed.
Fighting internally over tactics sounds just like the argument in the last thread over what constitutes a “legitimate” blog…
I once read somewhere (in a science fiction novel, I believe), that successful movements need bomb throwers on the outside and subtle manipulators on the inside. The idea is that a two-front assault is made on the entrenched power structure to throw them off-balance and make it more likely to dislodge them. And as Jane pointed out, no politician could be so blunt and survive politically. Campaigns routinely use proxies for this kind of thing. MoveOn’s crime is not being a proxy for a politician, I guess.
Shame on Kerry and The Truman Project and anyone else who swallows the rightwing faux outrage hook, line and sinker. This is the exact thing that was done with Wellstone’s memorial and the CBS TANG documents and countless other times to create a controversy over nothing instead of facing the allegations head-on.
Meanwhile these self-professed politically correct gasbags on the right have no trouble calling Democrats traitors and comparing them to Hitler or bin Laden. Looking to them for guidance on social behavior is beyond stupid, it’s pathetic.
Perhaps the attack on Moveon.org is another shiny object that is meant to divert attention….
Just think Kerry fell for it…
Hoping he was smart enough to see that coming…
Guess not….
until dems loosen the grip the DLC has on them they’ll never stand up for democratic values – i saw john kerry dismiss the moveon ad… if anyone knows how dirty repugs play it’d be HIM!!now DLC dems are trotted out to “denounce” the ad – truly disgusting
excellent jane!
i thought the moveon ad was great – but more importantly, it pushed the envelope to widen the limits of what is permissable to think and to say. would it have been better if there had been no ad? no way. moveon is taking the arrows so our more timid pols and pundits don’t have to. good for moveon.
… i was really pissed at moveon this spring – but with this ad, and their recent poll asking if pro-war dems should be primaried, i back to being a member and a supporter.
The only thing that bugged me about the ad was the “Betray-us” line which I found juvenile. Other than that I thought it was a legitimate point of view. But dig how fast it put us on our heels ?
Amen Jane. (and kudos Markos. If only our leaders had the same media presence)
I sometimes explain our sides willingness to snipe each other as a necessity of having such diversity in our party.
Then I think about Chris Shays and Tom Delay – pretty darn disparate (CT Old money GOP, Southern faux bible GOP), yet they didnt consistently undercut each other messages or vote against each other when it mattered. Amazing when you think about it.
I really appreciate you breaking this elephant into bite-size pieces each day. Seems so damn overwhelming fighting these battles sometimes, its great to have a general like you leading the way. :)
The MoveOn ad also has the virtue of being amplified by these pundits.
Petraeus just commented on the MoveOn ad at his and Crocker’s news conference on CSPAN 1. He said that they were exercising their First Amendment rights which had been preserved by generations of servicemen (i.e. like him)
Both sound pretty relaxed because I think they know that they were successful in their mission of prolonging the “surge” and this stupid war.
ticktock @ 22
Kerry’s weakness is and always has been his position that “I’m too well bred to go along with this” – whether it was the Swiftboating or whatever, his behavior always comes down to not getting involved in stuff that he considers sweaty or dirty. He would not “stoop” to dealing with the Swiftboaters until it was too late (and by then he’d been “defined” as a wimp) and this is all of a piece – what he is saying is “we must behave and play nicely with one another lest we offend.” Sorry, John. The GOP doesn’t give a rat’s ass who they offend…or send off to war..or throw out of a job…or cut off from healthcare. I don’t mind being found “revolting” – if revolting is the best way we can fight against the GOP.
Hugh @ 28
I hate that fucking attitude. Don’t do me any favors, General.
Tim @ 25
But how much attention would the ad have received without the Betray-us line? Pretty much none at all.
Isn’t it nice to force the Right wing to defend the meme once in a while? The more they denounce the line, the more it penetrates the conscious of the average voter and becomes part of the record that BushCo betrayed our military.
Well said, Toby.
betrayus and crocked did as they were told….meantime the war marches ever onward……with no end soon in sight
I was surprised as well to hear John Kerry say that last night night about the MoveOn ad. I mean, of all people, he should know better.
Toby Wollin @ 29
Okay, right behind you…
Where do I sign up?….
Point taken but I also agree with the “shiny object” concept which I see as detrimental.
Right — it’s all about the ad.
And every progressive in this country should have been able to predict that an ad like that would do nothing but divert attention away from what Petraeus was saying.
The ad was beyond counter-productive. It wrote the script for every wingnut demogogue in this country.
You can defend MoveOn if you feel so inclined by saying that they are right about Petraeus but that’s irrelevant since what they did was egregiously stupid, and worse, unnecessary from a political standpoint.
They only folks swayed by the ad were progressives who distanced themselves from MoveOn. They sure didn’t bring anybody new over from the dark side.
Jane, joo have said eet before een another context, to be certain, and I know thees weel sound counter-intuitive, but…
I remember joo (or maybe CHS) comparing NARAL to the NRA, some months ago, w/r/t a vote on reproductive rights. NARAL deed no look so good by comparison, wheech breengs us to politicians and blogs.
?How would the NRA handle a politician who had wronged their membership, or let them down on a key vote?
?Would they make nicey-nice, sigh and say sometheeng about a beeg tent, or would they immediately begin seeking to fund a primary challenger?
I (and many other pipples here) may not like what the NRA stands for, but there ees no doubt that the NRA has integrity. Eet may be integrity only as eet pertains to internal cohesiveness, (not moral integrity) but they sure can use eet to keep their politicians een line.
We need the spineless Democrats to be more scared of us then they are of the Republiculos and their gang of professional enablers een the press. We need to let them know that eef they don’t stand up for what the Democratic Party ees supposed to stand for, then they weel have no support, no dolares for their campaign, no volunteers working the precinct. All of thees weel go to whoever walks the walk.
They need to know that eef they continue to act as cringing invertebrates, then they weel have to go through emergency-spine-reinsertion-treatments, and that thees process can be…most uncomfortable.
so.
Hugh @ 28
They sound pretty relaxed because the ad worked in their favor and they know it.
Since we’re on the topic of arrows and such. I got a bit of feedback last night from some Democratic friends and family in Texas regarding Noriega. They read his stuff when he was here the other day. The concensus? they remain uncovinced, don’t trust the man and don’t like him. And feel the same about Noriega as I do about Hillary. Trapped.
cleter @ 11
Excellent illustration of Jane’s point. Has anyone come up with a picture of HoJo and Adam’s apple Coulter at Hannity’s 9/11 bash yet? I tried, and no luck yet.
Great work, Jane.
I’m glad to see the Beltway Dems nailed on their fear of the Progressive movement.
They’ve lost the plot.
Now for the NRA treatment – political destruction – for Beltway/National Dems obstructing progressive causes.
The Beltway Dems opposing the Progressive movement serve the Money party – just like Rethugs.
And the Beltway Dems will have closets full of personal skeletons.
I look forward to seeing the obstructionist Beltway Dems with financial/personal indiscretions outed and their political careers destroyed.
Every day in Iraq their obstruction kills.
Every day in US hospitals, their obstruction kills.
They deserve no mercy, no loyalty, no support.
The obstuctionist Dems deserve political destruction by any non-violent means possible.
Fuck their careers and their “party loyalty” – lives and the Republic are at stake.
Identify them, hunt them, attack them, destroy them.
Mercy for the Beltway Dems who join the Progressive movement – misery and fear for those who oppose it.
May they never know a moment of peace so long as they prolong the Iraq occupation.
May the spirits and terror and rage of those who die in agony – here and in Iraq – trouble every moment of the Obstructionists’ lives.
May the energy of those departed spirits animate the Obstructionists’ fear and misery.
Without violence, may the Dem Obstructionists’ careers perish and may their fortunes dwindle – so long as the Occupation of Iraq or the megacorps’ Occupation of our Republic continue.
May the suffering the Obstructionists choose to create provide the energy for their misery.
So mote it be.
Hugh @ 28
Isn’t that funny? How come the so-called “conservatives” never seem to respond that way?
That’s one reason I agree that today’s wing-nuts are not real conservatives – I grew up with a real one, my Dad. It was he who taught me that everyone has rights, every defendant, no matter how loathsome, is entitled to defense, that our liberties do not include trampling on the liberties of others.
Brava, Jane! And bravo, Kos.
The popinjays in the Duchy of Columbia oughta just get over themselves. They all act like a lousy Regency novel–having the vapors.
Demand better. Be better.
I expected Petraeus to have a shaved head. And be sucking on a lolipop. And say “Crock-ah!!”
AJ @ 39
Yes, because it was negative and we all know how unsuccessful negative political advertising has been. *g*
I think we should call it Diaper Dave and the Shrinking Violet Amendment or Mothers Little Helper Bill.
IIRC, The MoveOn ad had great big question mark in the main text. It was not declarative statement.
Considering the amount of repetition it has received along with the scorn of Lieberman and Duncan Hunter.. I would say it was a brilliant success and I am delighted to say I contributed to MoveOns email asking for contributions for the ad last week.
The Betray-us thing is kinda old news and not original to MoveOn. I’m still pissed about that article by this guy Feaver that was in the Boston Globe and other papers yesterday.
Under what circumstances did the two of the troops who wrote the op-ed in the NYT die? After Tillman, that is a question that should be asked.
Prairie Sunshine @ 44
707
The right wing pols clutch at pearls while the left wing has the vapors! Perfect description.
I just don’t understand all the self loathing and immolation over this freaking ad. Every word in it was true. Petraeus has been shilling for Bush in a dishonorable fashion, for a military man in his position, since he made an intentional and dishonest attempt to influence the 2004 election (who knows; he may actually have) by writing his “everything is peachy in Iraq” editorial supporting the Administration in the Washington Post. Could a couple of words have been phrased more delicately in the caption; probably, but every word in the ad is true; that is what is important.
Furthermore, the fact is, it was the Surgin General’s own fellow military officers and troops that coined the term “General Betrayus”. Jam that and the fact that every single word in the ad is true right back down anybody’s throat that makes a peep. These junk concerns are exactly why we always get rolled over. It is there; beat them over the head with it any way you can. Time to quit apologizing for being impolite to a bunch of traitors that are ruining our country; and Petraeus has been belligerently right with them the whole time. I have no symapthy. Democrats should stop beating themselves up for this junk; leave the self flaggellation to Republicans in airport stalls.
el gato negro said:
and:
los
You are too funny, gatito, mi amor,. May I borrow this word of yours? I like it.
!El Gato Negro! @ 38:
LOL!
You know, I wouldn’t have done it that way — the way MoveOn did. They are completely correct in everything they stated with the Petraeus add and I have no issue with their position. I just know that they are preaching to the choir for anyone who would be inclined to agree with the information and are not going to change the mind of anyone disinclined to agree, quite the opposite. Then, on top of that, they give the narrow minded, mewing morons a softball to bat around for a news cycle instead of talking about the real issues like what a liar George Bush is.
Now, all that being stated. It wouldn’t have been my play, but MoveOn has been in the trenches and have always been consistent with their message and if any group has won the right to exercise their first amendment rights, it’s these guys.
I think that’s all any true progressive needs to say, “It wouldn’t have been my play, but they’ve got a perfect right to make that case and if you can’t contest the message then you’re making an obvious point of it by focusing on the packaging. Let’s talk about real issues now, shall we.” I wish John Kerry had said that.
That picture reminds me of the Far Side cartoon where a guy is being carried off the ramparts of the castle face-down on a stretcher with arrows sticking out of his ass, and the caption says:
“So I say to Hans, ‘While nothing’s going on, let’s moon these Saxon dogs.’”
The bad polling news is hitting Rudy in waves right about now. There’s the new Washington Post poll, which finds him at his lowest point this year:
Giuliani’s support dropped from 37 percent in a July poll to 28 percent in the latest survey, and his decline from February has been even more sharp. Then, he had the backing of 53 percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents and had a better than 2 to 1 advantage over his closest rival.
It defies my ability to understand why everyone is so afraid of progressives.
It seems the Republicans have turned it into a negative just as they have the word liberal.
Being a progressive is tantamount to being un American?
Fuck that.
Progressives need to start taking the lead because the main stream Democrats aren’t doing squat except being afraid of their own shadows.
Perhaps the much wanted third party is where we should focus our attention as liberals and progressives. The other two certainly could use some healthy competition.
Hey Jane!
We just got back late last night from our first ever vacation during our married life (no, we were not even able to have a honeymoon) — and I scooted over here as soon as possible to discover (as anticipated) that you are still bringing refreshing truth to the front page of Firedoglake. Yay!
We were without internet toobz virtually the whole time — waaaahhh! But I get the blogz fired up to discover that it’s the same ol’ crap, the same ol’ fear of the truth, and the same ol’ lack of justice happening as before our trip. Sigh.
Still, the fight goes on. And now, though tired from the ordeals of travel, we’re refreshed and ready to remount our battle stations.
So very good to see you write such goodness. And it’s wonderful to see all the Firepups again, with such astute comments.
Hi there, Pups! Love y’all!!! Hugs and kisses all ’round.
Beerfart Liberal @ 48
What was that? Link?
tejunarusa
si, y de nada.
Use eet and spread eet around, how-joo-say “liberally”
Republiculo
Current prices for crude oil:
Nymex Crude Future $79.80
Dated Brent Spot $78.15
WTI Cushing Spot $79.78
These are near record. The EIA report came out today indicating that crude oil supplies dropped by 7.1 million bbls last week. Gasoline inventories were relatively steady with a drop of .7 million bbls. What kills me about all this is that even with these drops in crude oil supplies they still remain at the high end of their average range.
There is no reason to back down from the statement that he betrayed us. His own commanders are saying he is lying, he has made statements that are lies. One stands up to a bully and puts them down if you wish for them to stop their actions. It is time to show these people for what they are, lying, bullying war criminals. There is a degree to which we are going to get the far right to agree with our assessment of such people, but there is no reason at all to back down from a statement of fact.
The military is fed up with what they have become. Police to the Iraqi people? This has to be turning most of our troops into the guards of the Stanford Prison Experiment. They will have mental problems for the rest of their days. It is ridiculous to think that any of these people are going to come home normal to anyone around them after enduring the torture of being a torturer. I don’t mean that they are all torturer’s, but they are being forced into a position of being that guard that ends up being an abuser. These guys are in the far less stable position where they are being killed as they try to help those that kill them.
If we do not want our military home because they are all mentally unstable from the longest prison guard job in the history of our nation, then the country needs to tell us this. Will they?
If we want them back sane, we best do so now and realize that we will be counseling these people for the mental anguish of being a prison guard over a people they don’t understand, being ordered to do things that are against their sense of right and wrong, and these are the simple fundamentals. When you add in that some have had to kill, some have had to do things to protect themselves that didn’t allow them to spare the innocent.
Blackwater will be our new army if we do not get our citizen soldiers home, and provide them with some real help for what has to be the worst experience of their lives. And one they won’t soon get over. You have many thousands of potentially PSTD people that are going to need our help not to explode at their country’s lack of regard for their well being.
MoveOn is commended for attacking this little soldier. This 15th choice of a “leader” to repeat the gospel of st. cheney. It is a serial liar, it was the job description he had to pass to be considered. Let’s be realistic here. This is a cheap little two bit replacement when others said NO, hell no I won’t do that to my men.
One should decide what progressive means. It is time to attack. It is time to be counted for people that are not sure the republican form of government was meant to be so devoid of democracy. My representative doesn’t care what I say. My last one did care, but was it because he thinks a bit more like me? It is, or was, everyone’s right to free speech. And free speech will crush these little pieces of excrement as they wash down the drain.
Eureka Springs @ 47
Anything that gets the scorn of Lieberman and D. Hunter is okay with me….
I thought the Move-On ad was perfect. I’m tired of our Dems in DC acting like quivering bowls of Jello every time an unkind word is said. When will they understand that’s the way Repubs play the game and we had better fight back in the same way. Wimps !
johnSwifty @ 54
Seriously, use the opportunity to direct the discussion to the facts.
It is an interesting issue.
If I understand the thesis of the post it is that too many folks on the dem side of the aisle are ‘nice’ and are unwilling to go down the assholian road.
The thing is, you can always just use a different road – the one named assertive.
In fact, I seem to recall the author of the post herself storming that road in a pup-powered cavalcade when the need arose (numerous times) in the past.
.
The Goopers are crying because they got Rochambeau’d by Move-on.
Sometimes, the Truth hurts right thru the happy talk.
!El Gato Negro! @ 60
Mil gracias, gato. (btw, yo tengo dos de tus tocayos. Que nombre excelente!)
Jane, you are, . . .
Morally, ethic’lly
Spiritually, physically
Positively, absolutely
Undeniably and reliably Dead On!
I want the MoveOn Ad campaign to become a MO for the progressive movement. I am so sick of the
Death Tax
No Child Left Behind
Opportunity Society
Global War on Terror
Homeland Security
Patriot Act
Shock and Awe
Mission Accomplished
Fair & Balanced
Commander In Chief
Compassionate Conservatism
we have been living with.
“Betray Us” works. It is devastating in its effect and that it why it has the Republicans foaming at the mouths. We should never miss an opportunity to point to the truth behind each and every new GW circus act by finding a few simple words that describe what the Republicans are really up to.
RossK @ 66
I thought “assertive” was the very road Jane was talking about here.
bustednuckles at 57:
Being a progressive is tantamount to being un American? Fuck that.
Maybe joo should go tell Instapundit… apparently he ees on one of hees
“not anti-war, just on the other side” jaunts.
un frotacionado grande, no?
so.
bmaz @ 51
Amen to this. The public sees this Petraeus as not much different than a lying tobacco executive in front of Congress, except for the medals all over his chest. The Republicans and Bush are trying to hide behind this swindler, so he’s the one you knock down.
Crude Oil hits $80 per barrel- an new record.. troops are dyin in Iraq- the war is goin to cost a trillion dollars. We’re teetering on the brink of recession due to too much debt-public and private the dollar is at a new low- medical costs are up at over twice the rate of inflation…our government is as dysfunctional as Iraq’s…
So let’s critique TeeVee ads?
Speaking of Petraeus, I can’t imagine that the President and his people are pleased with his performance. Both Petraeus and Crocker actually seemed to be stammering and stuttering after Feingold’s questions. Obama seemed to throw them for a loop. I can’t imagine that Joe Wilson, who used to be second in command to the Ambassador of Iraq, wouldn’t have had more qualitative answers than Crocker. And, you’re right, Petraeus is being far too political, but that’s not news in this administration. I doubt that he thinks he’s being political, either, which just shows that he’s being very masterfully played, and that he’s entirely too gullible and oblivious to what’s going on in the neighboring areas.
So how long before you figure this administration dumps the both of them? I don’t think they’ll last more than six months. I think they seriously did some damage to their credibility yesterday. I hope so, ‘cuz they sure left a lot to be desired. I would prefer a general with his responsibilities would be more familiar with the big picture.
Yeah, what’s The Truman Project done to bring our troops home, anyway?
Wankers.
abiodun — Some folks who have connections to the 82nd airborne tell me that they were riding in a transport vehicle that took a turn in darkness and it slipped over the side of a very steep cliff, and tumbled about 30 feet (give or take). There were apparently 7 soldiers killed in the accident.
The Turman Project – isn’t that the movie with Jim Carrey?
Hedge funds are showering money on Congress while stonewalling their bankrupt
racketenterprise from the light of day.Kiss your ass goodbye boys. Game is over.
TeddySanFran @ 75
“Truman” is totally neocon code, by the way, like “Scoop Jackson”.
tejanarusa:
The fur, eet hides my blushing.
so.
Jane, most excellent!
Slightly OT, but connected, I believe.
What comments has Mistah Kerry offered in regard to that little police riot yesterday?
Now THAT was offensive. The priorities of the msd’s never fail to amaze me. ‘Let us all be wuz-zes,’ mustn’t dirty OUR little paws.
The ‘vapors,’ indeed!
David W. Bartoo @ 80
If the word Betray-us is good enough for the guys getting shot at, it’s good enough for me.
David W. Bartoo @ 80
Does anyone know what the latest is? I’ve seen nothing.
Don’t hold back, oldtree. Tell us what you really think. It pretty much agree. I do not think the First Amendment applies only to Republicans. I find it more than odd that those who sling so much mud can’t stand to hear something that hits a little too close to the truth.
And it got the idea out there. Petraeus is not the great general Bush and the Republicans want to paint him as. Everytime they opened their mouths to whine about the MoveOn ad they reminded everyone that there are many who do not think so. It made Petraeus an issue. It began the re-branding of him. A lot of people are going to have Betray-us tickle at the edge of their consciousness in coming months as more Americans die in Iraq for no good reason.
tejanarusa @ 59:
I’m not sure how to work the lik thing-y, but if I get it right, here’s a link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..284289.ece
Or did you mean the Feaver piece?
I also like attacking Petraeus because it’s a modest start at countering the dangerous prestige the military in this country have.
Bam !
And Jane, this:
Just beautiful. Amen.
The entire neo con fiasco is a betrayal and Petraus was the poster child of the Summer by his own free will. One 70 thousand dollar full page ad in the NYT raised that question perfectly and injected into the national psyche . It’s a nasty question far to many have avoided asking.
Beerfart Liberal @ 85
Actually, yes, I meant the Feaver piece. But, hey, your link works fine!
Mrs. K8 @ 70
I can’t believe my eyes!!
MrsK8, sooo good to see you!
Namaste
brendan @ 78
Even though he was a Democrat, they kinda like them some Truman cuz he unleashed the terrible giant mushroom. They are awestruck by that and drool at the prospect of one of their own leaders glassing someplace.
Dubya is just the guy to do it.
Hugh @ 84
See me @ #31 for concurrence (fwiw)
Yes Jane!
Let’s focus our invective at those who deserve it, namely neocons, war criminals, blue dog dems, and media shills.
Once again, the R’s used Rovian tactics to shift the focus of the moveon ad from “Patreous lies” to “nasty left-wing bloggy types say mean things about us god fearing heroes”. The supine press licks it up.
Twain @ 81
I agree completely, that is the region where its use originated. To bad Mistah Kerry is at such a remove from the sentiments of those folks on the (front) line. I wonder if he even read that NYT piece by the seven soldiers, now four?
RE: The Feaver piece, I wrote this another place here this a.m.
Some knucklehead had an op-ed in my local paper yesterday – it was in the Boston Globe too. The guy says that “This is a defining moment for the anti-war faction.” See, he explains, MoveOn is playing the role of Joe McCarthy and “supporters of the war are duty bound, like Joseph Welch, to rise and ask of war opponents,’Have you left no sense of decency?’” Get it?
It’s a bogus analogy – stupid really and the article, of course, does not address at all the substance of the ad. But this is what I was alluding to in an earlier post -what has me so pissed off – why is this a “defining moment” for us? The end of Da Surge has begun and it seems to me a defining moment for the pro-war crowd. Now what? ’cause status quo clearly isn’t acceptable.
http://www.boston.com/news/glo…..hy_moment/
Said knucklehead is i.d.’d only as someone who is a poli-sci professor at Duke and who served on the National Security Council under both Clinton and Fucktard. In fact, in the NYT on August 29, 2007 the guy – Peter Feaver – is described as someone “who helped draft the buildup strategy [bfl note: Da Surge]as an official with the National Security Council but recently returned to his post as a political science professor at Duke University.” Said Professor Feaver is also quoted in an article about Iraq, “One of the Top Five Deadliest Places on Earth,” written by – ya ready? – our old pal Michael O’Hanlon who “had the honor of attending Woody Woo” with – right – General David Petreaus.
http://www.dailyprincetonian.c…..6824.shtml
What is this? An O’Hanlon-Feaver-Petreaus circle jerk? Sadly,it’s a bigger club and our media is swallowing everything with few exceptions.
I’m writing a letter to my editor of the paper this bullshit Feaver article appeared in. Think it’ll ever see the light of day?
AAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHH.
tejanarusa 90
see me @ 96
The MoveOn ad hit a nerve, not the we should respect our service men and women one, but the “surge” is a failure one. That’s the reason they howled.
Oh, and the 60-70% of Americans who oppose this war? They still oppose it.
Hi Ms. K8 – so good to see you here!
Why is it the timidity of these Washington Dems seems to end when it comes to attacking us? They cower like a beat puppy when the Republicans come after them, but when someone stands up the the bullies they pile on without reservation.
I think every Dem/Progressive/Thinker who gets asked about the MoveOn ad should completely ignore the question and just quote the current statistics on the dead and wounded in Iraq. When the question is repeated ignore it again and talk about how the situation in Iraq is actually degenerating and not improving.
Interviewer: “Mr. Democratic Senator, what do you have to say about the controversial MoveOn.org ad?”
Mr. Democratic Senator: “Did you know the number of American casualties in Iraq reached 3,927 today? And the war has cost us $XX Billion dollars so far with no end in sight.”
Interviewer: “Yes, but what do you think about the MoveOn ad criticizing General Petraeus?”
Mr. Democratic Senator: “Oil hit $80 a barrel today and more Americans have lost their health insurance under Bush. Our national debt under Bush is larger than the debt incurred by every single president before him combined…”
I was riffing there so I didn’t go check the actual numbers, but you get the idea.
The really galling thing is that none of these same people had any problem with denigrating the reputations of a whole lot of other military men, including General Schinseki, the seven generals that came out against the war in Iraq, Max Cleland, and John Kerry himself. You think they won’t be willing to stab Peter Pace in the back as soon as he’s gone? He was the last “fair-haired boy.” These people are just such phonies!
Hugh @ 97
ding!
when they howl, pile on double. hurt them.
I’m not sure exactly why so many moderate Dems are more afraid of progressive Dems and independents than they are of the Dinos, but they are. That dynamic, along with what I call “Green hate” are keeping the party from modernizing and attracting new, young members at the most advantageous time in recent history.
yellowsnapdragon @ 93
All true. And really, has any very serious pretender stood up for the Reverend who got his leg broken by overzealous fascist Amstapo?
Don’t you all suspect that we (collectively) are being savaged BECAUSE we are effective?
The message IS getting through and change IS coming. I smell fear in the air. That little riot was a message to all of us.
Barbara Boxer was on Randi’s show and was in tears. About the deaths of the soldiers in the NYT and her frustration over not being able to stop the war.
Randi’s idea is to call the Republicans not the Dems.I heard my Senator yesterday and was appalled. Corker is such a weasel.
I want to ask him if he is willing to fight this war forever. Is he willing to take away from TN’s children, roads and everything else? Is that what works for him?
I’m going to write.
Beerfart Liberal @ 96
Ah, I see. You must’v been up earlier than me – missed that post.
I guess the Globe has changed a lot since the ’70’s, too. I loved reading it then, but of course, I had come to Boston from the land of the Indianapolis Star (family of Dan Quayle, ’nuff said.)
Come on guys, down with the gloves … let’s frame things like a repub would do ^^
” Dubya started the war, Petraeus lost it “
Spread this meme.
Nice Dr. Murphy.
And screw John Kerry. If he won’t fight for himself, why should we expect him to fight for anything…
Grabbed from the Glenn Greenwald piece on the MoveOn ad this morning (and I’m sure already widely discussed here earlier), Pat Buchanan’s take on the “courage” of Congressional Democrats:
We can be forgiven for ignoring the initial focus of Glenn’s piece, Joke Line.
The ad is not the problem, in my opinion. Democrats don’t even need to defend MoveOn or the ad. The problem is the inability of OUR Senators and C/Critters to put up their damned fists and swing back when there is a good reason to defend a position. They have the law and the facts and the public on their side now, and if you have those, you are duty-bound to scrap back. But the ChimpCo message machine has them as paralyzed now as ever. Eli may have been more correct than he knew when he posited last night that, to ChimpCo, the public is irrelevant. It’s about cornering Congressional Dems and flailing them into submission, thereby circumventing their constituents.
Most frustratingly though, I’m searching for reasons why Buchanan might be even contextually wrong. All I’m coming up with is pocket lint.
Thanks Jane!
Ed*ard Teller @ 102
“moderate dems” = Money Party
The progressive movement will destroy the Money Party and all it perks for DLC/Blue Dog Dems.
I’m quite certain why the “moderate” Dems oppose and fear the Progressive movement.
They see the end of their long careers of legalized bribe-taking.
Bummer – they can get a real job.
Beerfart Liberal:
Yes, it’ll see the light of day. Refer to the data and title of the op-ed in subject line of your e-mail, not just the body. Otherwise, be taut and concise, pointed without being insulting, and don’t complain so indiscriminately about the paper that you turn off the peon reading your letter.
Sufilizard:
Ding!
After all, this is exactly how the Repubs and their enablers do it. They NEVER answer the question asked, unless it’s to their benefit. Why it’s so hard for the “professional politicians” to figure out, I dunno.
OT..Earlier I asked if the Dems would roll-over if Olson was nominated a AJ
This from Reid today:
link
I’ll believe it when it happens.
SufiLizard @ 100
exactly, kerry and others where handed this opportunity and they balk at it.
When McCain says, “Choose to lose.”
The answer should be, “Die for Lies?”
snowbird42 @ 106
Lynne Woolsey (D-CA 06) just said recently that if we want to stop the war we have to replace the blue dogs with progressive candidates. A little late, she is, but at least we’re starting to hear the truth from the inside. Is the DLC listening?
Petraeus and Crocker
Daddy & Mommy Warbucks.
Jane
You say a guy like Kerry et al criticizing Moveon.org shows how woefully out of touch Beltway denizens are with what is going on in this country.
Kerry is a guy with his finger constantly dampened (I won’t speculate where from) to test wind direction. You say the wind blows differently in DC. Perhaps the anti-war movement isn’t as powerful as it thinks.
The ad was absurdly innocuous, but the adverse response shows people continue to respect hierarchy no matter where it leads. It’s my country right or wrong sort of thing. Progressives think they are the elephant (no reference to Republicans intended) in the living room. How do we prove that proposition so overwhelmingly people cannot help but notice?
You’re not alone. Whenever I find myself agreeing w/ Pat, my left I starts to twitch like Herbert Loms’ !
zennurse, sweetie! How wonderful it is to be here to see you! Hope all is well with you, I think of you often.
kirk murphy — and it’s so good to be back here. I’m always glad to see your comments, and those of so many of the Pups I missed while away.
And because I was away and sans internet — and sans television and newspapers, for the most part — could someone be so kind as to tell me what the “police riot” mentioned in the quote below was all about? I missed it entirely.
David W. Bartoo @ 81
my left “I” ???????
WTF ?
Whatever one wants to say about the ad – and I can’t comment, not having seen it – it has certainly gotten attention for both the organization and the message.
Hugh @ 97
i have a great deal of compassion and respect for the grunts. not so much for hack generals who work to keep the troops in harms way in an immoral occupation… just so they can get their next promotion.
tejanarusa:
Yeah, ’nuff said. I didn’t read it in the Globe but that’s where I found the link. I read it in our local Chicago Tribune owned rag.
Jane, I was just thinking of doing a post along these lines. Ha!
Thing is, this has been going on for decades now. Remember the Very First Clinton FauxGate (fake scandal) that was ginned up by the GOP and their friends in the press corps? It was The White House Travel Office Scandal.
Here’s the deal: In early 1993, incoming First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton found out that Billy Dale, the Reagan and Bush holdover who was running the White House Travel Office that handled travel arrangements with the Beltway press that covers the president, had been committing a series of dodgy dealings, including keeping over $50,000 of the Travel Office’s money in his own bank account. She moves to have him and several of his staff fired and decides to have him replaced by travel-agency expert friends of hers back in Arkansas.
Now Billy Dale, you see, was the Reagan hire who’d best mastered the “iron hand in the velvet glove” trick: Lots of perks and cocktail weenies and turkee to those press stenographers who behave themselves, severe punishments meted out to those who don’t. Eventually, the desired effect was achieved: The press corps now saw itself as part of the same hyper-rarefied elite as the Reagan-Bushes and their fellow Republicans. This is how we got the GOP-submissive press corps of the Reagan years, immortalized in Mark Hertsgaard’s classic book On Bended Knee: The Press and the Reagan Presidency.
So that meant that when the press reported on this, they stood foursquare in Billy Dale’s corner, against Hillary Clinton (who they accused of acting solely to give the Travel Office fiefdom to her friends as a perk) and for corruption. As Vince Foster would tragically write in the note found after his death, “The press is covering up the illegal benefits they received from the travel staff.”
kirk murphy said:
Bummer – they can get a real job.
I have some excellent jobs in mind for them – the call center industry is always looking for articulate people who can sit for long periods of time and bullshit….
Mrs. K8 @ 120
This post from yesterday should explain pretty much everything
Jane,
Beautiful post… right on point and loved the Krugman bit.
Someone needs to teach these political pros how to play the game. Kerry learned nothing from his boating experiences.
OT – Neil Bush is geting federal money for unevaluated software: http://rawstory.com//news/2007….._0912.html
Can’t they at least look into this?
I agree that Kos had the best answer (and a good, public platform). Too bad we couldn’t get the talking points memo to all the faithful.
The ad is not the issue. The occupation is the issue. The propaganda campaign by the White House is the issue.
That said, moveon.org needs better copy-writers. They are amazingly consistent at doing precisely the right and necessary thing in a totally tone-deaf way.
Badwater @ 129
Bab’s favorite charity, Ignite!
Well said, Jane.
I find it so inexcusable that Members of Congress are ignorant about the most crucial issues of our time – like basic public relations…, and like Iraq, and what the Iraqi people think of our presence in their country. They have to wait for BBC/ABC/NHK to do a poll of Iraqis (and for the Washington Post to print it), before the thought even crosses their minds to inquire – through committee testimony or otherwise – what Iraqis might wish us to do in our alleged campaign to safeguard their lives and liberty??
It is so easy today, with the internet and search engines, to instantly get your hands on legitimate data from all over the world, on any topic – even personal accounts from the frontlines of Iraq. If Members of Congress are ignorant on a topic, is is only because they have irresponsibly chosen to remain in the dark and to ignore the facts at issue, and they should absolutely not be given a pass for such willful ignorance. They apparently refuse to take responsibility for the state of our nation, and its effect on the world, until someone else forces them to confront their responsibilities as elected representatives of the public who wield enormous power under our Constitution.
Carl Levin apparently wanted to hold a press conference today, to make a point about something Petraeus said to him versus what Bush will say in his speech tomorrow night. So Levin rounded up his sidekick Jack Reed [who has the charisma of wallpaper paste but who Levin apparently got Harry Reid to choose to deliver the rebuttal to Bush tomorrow night (Reed’s an ex-Marine and therefore not an “idiot liberal nut,” you see)], along with Harry Reid, and then Reid muttered about Iraq for ten minutes at the podium. Then suddenly Carl Levin took over, off-mike, in the corner one-on-one with reporters about his next attempt at passing the Levin/Reed (sort-of, maybe, some-kind-of Iraq withdrawal) bill.
Meanwhile if I read the liveblogging helpfully provided by zennurse accurately – Harry Reid proceeded to tell the reporters today that he would “prefer” that any Iraq amendments introduced next week not be attached to the Defense Authorization Bill (aka his main leverage against a veto in this matter), when he brings that bill back up next week. I can only hope that I misunderstood.
Senators: SOMEONE has to re-energize this Iraq debate for your caucus. [Kent Conrad was actually doing a far better job on the Senate floor at about the same time - with charts and conviction, despite his hesitation about a firm date for withdrawal and his attempt to call “that ad” inappropriate. Yet (master of budgetary details) Conrad seemed to be surprised about the opinions of Iraqis expressed in the new poll, and to have a very limited grasp of the details of our thoroughly-enmeshed involvement in every aspect of that nation’s ongoing dissolution.] Democrats have a lot of useless slackers in their caucus like Mark Pryor and Ben Nelson, but the few Senators with a conscience and a work ethic and some PR ability need to run interference with the Levin/Reid/Reed three zombies Iraq routine to change this dynamic!
Five cheers for Lynn Woolsey for doing what needs to be done in the House – admitting the failures of her political party’s caucus and actively engaging our help in changing it for the sake of peoples’ lives, never mind the egos and power-trips of politicians.
LS highlighted this link earlier, about someone not afraid to chronicle the trail of devastation in Iraq that has been helped along by the vaunted and apparently ‘unencumbered by a conscience’ General Petraeus:
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..12/1410237
This is depressing stuff ain’t it?
How come we can see all this BS without some special glasses to filter out the BS?
Why can’t they see it?
Or maybe they do and they are bought?
PW at 125-
I always wondered why the media were so quick to jump all over her for that Travel Office thingy. Of course, in those days, my sole source of info was one or another of the “MSM.” Thing s I never knew — the money was in Dale’s personal account, the replacements were travel experts (!), and the media were getting bennies from the previous travel office — let alone that line from Vince Foster’s note! Hunh. Wonder why?
As I’ve said before, it’s so hard to keep up *g*
Michael Markman @ 129
well then, hope you will lend a hand… moveon is looking for help (and they will pay)
I think it was Hugh who mentioned the ignored but important fact that MoveOn didn’t think up the nickname in the first place. This link only alludes to it; I don’t know if there’s a definitive one: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..itted=true
I wouldn’t be the one to know, but I’d think there’s a (captive) body of public opinion in the army for whom the use of the nickname resonates.
dakine01 @ 127
Thanks very much, dakine!
I actually had heard about that in a brief run-through of “Latest Breaking News” on Democratic Underground (and boy, is that a great way to catch up on all the headlines, or what?), but when I read the term “police riot” I was stupidly thinking of some street skirmish with tear gas and the like.
It’s outrageous what the neo-gestapo is getting up to nowadays, and my heart goes out to Rev. Yearwood for the broken leg alone as I know how much that hurts, let alone the monstrous violation of his constitutional rights which is much, much worse than any broken bones.
But nobody reported what Nancy “Peace In Our Time” Pellosi had to say about the add.
hackworth @ 92
The funny thing is it was one of theirs, Eisenhower, who warned of the military-industrial complex.
It’s just weird world sometimes.
I listened to Petreus and Crockershit for hours and they sounded like they haven’t a clue about their mission…
Getting us disentangled from Iraq.
selise @ 135
Oh yeah? Hmmmm….
selise @ 123
The term Betrayus originated on the ground in Iraq among grunts last winter, if not earlier. He was fairly popular when he was CO of the 101st, but late last year when the series of tour extensions began getting way out of hand, his ascension in the command structure and adherance to WH talking points eradicated his goodwill. Again, the term Betrayus originated in the ranks of our armed forces, not in the left blogosphere.
Emptywheel holds forth in the Guardian on Ted Olsen as possible replacement AG.
Badwater @ 129
Old news, since 2005 or earlier, IIRC.
tejanarusa @ 134
Yup. The CJR article I referenced is by Joe Conason, who was and is one of the great heroes of La Resistance.
I think they want Ted Olsen.
nonplussed @ 143
It’s a good thing Bush is a uniter and not a divider.
Arnie @ 138
No one ever reports on what Democratic leaders have to say. They are easy to ignore, perhaps because of a lack of both courage and charisma. They give the Republics hope that the last election was just an abboration or voting machine malfunction.
pow wow at 132 –
Thanks for that terrific comment. Your points are all-too valid and very well stated.
Until those dirty cocksuckers apologize for shit like the purple heart band aids they can go fuck themselves.
I think we need to employ the Bugman to teach our Dems some batshit political hardball.
Mrs. K8 @ 137
Perhaps I made it seem more impotant than it was, although I don’t believe that this should be allowed to ‘pass’. I remember the sixties and am convinced that certain ‘attitudes’ need to be nipped in the bud, as it were.
nonplussed @ 143
Marcy sees things clearly, as always. The US Attorney firings issue is not over by a longshot. If Olson is the nominee, we need to flood the SJC with spine-inserting (h/t gato negro) calls and letters.
Rove’s New Hampshire call-center scam proves there are a lot of fake Demorats “out there” who are actually Republican provocatures who joined the Democratic Party in name only so they could milk our tactics and information from us.
Many of those fakes have worked their ways into positions of authority in some of our Democratic organizations, and they would have remained quietly influential had the whole thing not fallen apart completely.
But now they are so desperate, some of them will expose themselves in their desperation.
The closer we get to the 2008 election season, the more we will see where these provocatuers and posers dwell.
We are seeing some of it now. My gut feeling about the Truman Project is that there are some of these fake Dems hanging out at the top there. Thgey certainly seem to be trying to mollify the Dems’ integrity, by catering to the Republican super-egoes instead of challenging them.
Call me paranoid, and I will thank you for the compliment.
The reality is this:
Any general officer was chosen to be general officer based, in signifcant part, on his or her political and PR skills.
When army full-bird colonel is selected for promotion to brigadier general. he or she is sent to “charm school,” as it’s called.
Petraeus, to get to his position, had to be both able and willing to use considerable political and PR skills.
Moveon nailed it, IMO.
Ed*ard Teller @ 141
I’m quoting your comment because I want to amplify it. Republicans always have a friendly ear in the media for this kind of thing — they’d have someone writing a feature on the origin of the nickname if they wanted.
Ed*ard Teller @ 142
Ah! So the ad actually supports the troops views.
if dems keep this up always weaseling in the face of repugs how can they expect to win the WH? only dem speaking forcefully is lil ole kucinich…..and his numbers are improving the more we see how the other dems are doing
JEP @ 152
Just go to their website. You don’t want to know who’s affiliated with them.
David W. Bartoo @ 151
Oh no, it’s very important indeed, and did not mean to imply otherwise, just wanted to explain my own denseness about what your comment referred to. The event with Rev. Yearwood garnered quite a lot of commentary at Democratic Underground, too.
I should go back and be sure to take at least a quick look at all the threads here at FDL which I missed during my trip. But I’m always so tempted to jump right into the current conversation — the conversation partners at the Lake are the best in the blogosphere IMO!!!
MoveOn is “Hiring”
.
Has anyone ever heard of Brian Haw’s peace protest at Parliament?
this guy has been outside parliament 24/7 since June 2001.
“Brian started his 24/7 vigil in 2001 to protest about the suffering of Iraqis during the 1990s because of economic sanctions. He continues because of all those who have, and continue, to suffer as a result of the invasion and occupation of Iraq.”
I am astounded. I am gobsmacked.
I am humbled.
http://www.parliament-square.org.uk/about.html
JEP @ 153
You know what? During the great gloom of post-”election” November 2004 I was briefly tempted to try the opposite ploy, join the local GOP groups just to see what they were up to as I hadn’t yet gotten known much at all in activist circles in our new home in the Southwest and could keep a low profile quite easily.
But there’s only so much nausea a person can take. It would be soul-killing to hang out with those folks, especially with the double dose of racism in this neck of the woods. I’d have been tempted to stick my head in the oven — even though we hadn’t gotten rid of the electric model yet.
Het Tejanarusa @ 135:
This is going off topic but I used to think all the time about the Travel Office bru-ha-ha and how some people wanted it investigated to death even though the people in the travel office “served at the pleasure of the President.” Heard that one recently?
I’m repeating a link, but I made a note of something egregiously subjective in the Post the other day a propos MoveOn:
“Democrats, appearing defensive because of the MoveOn.org attack on Petraeus, treated him respectfully throughout the hearing.”
It’s good Weisman was in the Democrats’ heads taking notes so we could properly interpret their demeanor.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
Got email from Boxer on the Petraeus hearings: http://www.barbaraboxer.com/news/articles?id=0101
Just sent an email to Kerry’s office with a link to this article. You’re so right Jane, these guys have got to wisen up about the media. Thanks for another excellent post.
brendan @ 86
good point.
I’m with those who are tired of our side behaving like half-assed pussies afraid to call bullshit.
Let the fuckers denounce the ad. Why even dignify them with a response?
ccmask @ 117
Bush and Petraeus’s never ending war theme song must be “the sun will come out tomorrow”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YpA…..mp;search=
Badwater @ 148
I don’t think that’s it. Republican leaders ain’t exactly strong in the courage or charisma department, either.
Beerfart Liberal @ 163
Ha! Good point.
It would be nice to hear our reps say such a thing on teevee, like “Serve at the pleasure of the President? You mean, like the White House Travel Office?”
Just to see the pundit-heads and winger guests choke and sputter.
This looks like a serious plea from Arthur Silber, please read, also posted at C&L with a plea for calls.
http://powerofnarrative.blogsp…..do-it.html
I should have headlined this with the fact that it is about Pentagon plans for a strike on Iran– a huge one. Please read.
zennurse @ 172
Why on earth is Wolf Blitzer going to have a “special two-hour program” tomorrow evening just because Bush is going to make remarks. They’ve already told us what he’s going to say, right, 30,000 troops out next year, back to pre-surge levels. So…why bother to watch it? Why all the special coverage? Hmmmm…
BTW, Friday the air defense will be “grounded”.
My parting comment to whoever on this thread was squeamish about the MoveOn ad: don’t cry over spilled milk. Make lemons out of lemonade (mixed metaphors, sorry), if you think this marvelous ad really was a lemon. Start making the point that it was his own soldiers who give him the name.
oddmommy @ 167
Right. On. See ya’ll, figuratively or literally, in D.C. on 9/15.
LS @ 174
What do you mean, “the air defense will be grounded?”
zen –
Thanks for the Arthur Silber link concerning Iran. That’s a task I can get onto right away. Even though I’m represented by nothing but the worst type of Goopers, it still behooves me to be a thorn in their side, politically speaking.
Shame on me if I don’t speak out early and often. It’s the very least I can do.
I also like attacking Petraeus because it’s a modest start at countering the dangerous prestige the military in this country have.
I need more information on this before I comment?
I feel a need to vent coming on, please tolerate this rant, as you are friends of mine, one and all, perhaps you will forgive me.
Not only are we not ‘represented’ by the msd’s
(main stream dims)…
We are ignored or savaged as suits their personal agendas and collective flight from responsibility and obligation to defend life, liberty, conscience AND the Constitution.
Why should I support these people? They support VERY LITTLE of what I care passionately about.
You know what?
I haven’t even looked at the MoveOn ad (yet). Big deal.
What stands out in my mind from two mind numbing days of news is this:
Warner: Is America safer?
Petraeus: I don’t know.
These hearings from General Betray-us or General Hero are irrelevant.
Get those cowardly lying asses out of my government and out of everyone else’s government too.
Jane’s got a new thread upstairs.
Pragmatism
brendan @ 164
weisman is a simpering little hyatt-wannabe
Aloha Ya’ll, anybody watch POV’s “Camden 28″ last nite? Awesome Vid! I was certainly inspired by it!!!
Right on.
I mean, they’ve had so much time to prepare their line on Petraeus it’s fucking pathetic that they don’t know what to say in this situation.
If they MUST concede something, say, “Well the language was inflammatory BUT…”. Then parry: “but we’ve been told for months that Petraeus was going to give us a report. Instead he gave us the White House’s report, and I think it’s a shame he didn’t show better leadership of the troops in his charge that way. To top it off, I can’t even tell where he’s getting his numbers from, and they disagree with much better data we have from other sources, so it’s a disturbing lack of candour. I would have expected a military man of his stature to be more of a straight shooter.”
So.. acknowledge that maybe MoveOn made some people mad, then explain why they probably should.
new thread
Move On ….YEEEEEEEEsss!! Keep up the fight. Such crap as Kerry put out was part of the reason he lost the election, that and election fraud. There is a point at which you cease to turn the other cheek and go for the jugular. This would be one of those times.Kerry should have done that when they attacked his war record!
CTuttle @ 184
Yea and I’m reading a whole lot of stuff her that implies someone is going to take action. I used to sit in some of these meetings of competing radical groups and listen to endless bullshit while they all tried to prove how fucking much smarter they were than the other bunch of pin heads. Talk is cheap, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Elliott @ 177
Per CNN online: “Military officials told CNN that the incident was a major breach of security rules surrounding nuclear weapons. One official said that he could not recall anything similar happening.
The Air Force announced that all flights of fighters and bombers in the United States will be halted on September 14 to allow for a review of procedures.”
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/…..newssearch
Badwater @ 129
I hope so. Time to make another call. Neil Bush is one seedy crook and his Daddy keeps him out of jail. Millions of people have dyslexia so by his logic they should all be given money towards their company. Being dyslectic doesn’t make the person an expert on these learning problems especially since there are so many types of dyslexia. Each requires a different approach. What works for one child doesn’t work for another.
The Bush family has no shame. This is called “a conflict of interest”. And, again, the Bush family steals from tax payers. Investigate this crook and stop all funds. Instead, support the programs that do work. Of course, none of these are a Bush family business.
I think Neil has the same problem that the rest of his family has – not the brightest bulb on the tree, but they sure have an abundance of crook genes in the brain.
The centrist wants to build a party from the top down and they figured one way of doing that is by beating progressives into submission. I don’t want to believe that are using other willing progressives to do that which seems quite counter productive.
Maybe putting together some sort of forum to educate the leadership on what’s at stake here maybe helpful since they seem so out of touch.
The problem that the Dems. leadership does not understand too well, is that most voters are now more informed than ever, and that the old excuses are no longer acceptable. People now want a higher quality of leadership and also a modern approach to problem solving which the leadership is finding hard to deliver, so they resort to attacks on their base instead of getting out of the way and let people in who have that understanding to lead.
I think the only way the elitist Democrats can beat the Progressives (true Democrats) is to round us up and put us on a lost island somewhere in the Indonesian Archipelago.
LS @ 189
I have a bad feeling about this….
LS@189
The AF Times pulled their story about this. But they do have a cute message in it’s place…
http://www.airforcetimes.com/n…..own_070807 has gone AWOL.
This is the gist of it.
nonplussed @ 194
OK, fwiw, this does NOT appear to be a total stand down of Operational flights. That is, those flight necessary for protection and such would be continuing. But those flights that are not directly related to standard operations such as training and check rides would be grounded. IOW, not wholly unprecedented.
That “almost 4000 dead” quote disturbs me. There are hundreds of thousands – likely over a half a million – dead as a result of the war. Not almost 4000. Well over 100 times that. When the “4000″ number is given without qualification, the implication is that dead Iraqis are not people worth counting or mentioning.
It would be great to have a progressive TV station and have the sponsors tailor their products to be in compliant with progressive values, in order to gain maximun support for their products. KO could be CEO. Centrist- DLCers would definitely come down with a heartburn.
John Kerry should be asking where were all those who now criticize when he was so viciously attacked by the swift boaters…scumbags. Sorry, but Genalal P has made himself into a mouthpiece of the schrub
I hate being so late to the party but _ I am- anyhow, rOSH hA sHONA- One of the holiest days of the Jewish Calandar-
First two days are the holiest- Perfect time for that piece of shit to insult another pretty large group!
George- Fuck the Muslims, Fuck the JEWS!
STAGGERING
I heard this crap about how “insulting” this ad was and called BS on it all. I’m personally at the pitchfork and torch stage of this peculiar and deadly game.
I asked my Senator’s military guy what he thought of the Petraeus op-ed of 09/26/2004 with its rosy scenario and he had never heard of it. That’s astonishing by itself, but then this Senator is Lindsey Graham. I can’t even bring myself to name the other SC Senator.
serge
A couple of things:
I remember reading somewhere that the “nickname” “Betray us” was given to Petraous by fellow soldiers not that long ago because of some actions he took where they felt he betrayed the troops. Sorry if this was already mentioned earlier (I did not read the entire thread).
Also an interesting quote from Will Rogers. When asked once about what political organization he belonged to he replied:
“I am not a member of an organized political party … I’m a Democrat!”
Great post Jane, I guess a little swim was inspiring.
Jo Fish @ 20
Was thinking the same thing — MoveOn should get a nice financial bump from those of us who agree. I always give financial support to any candidate or group demonized by the right.
Petraeus doesn’t act like a general: he puts the President above his duty to his troops and his duty to his country. I love the moveon ad, and will be sending money.
in pok*r this is called a bluff. say what you will about the Repubs, the Dems are LOUSY pok*r players.
how can people who once boasted “we don’t do body counts” now throw up their arms in outrage over ‘cooking the books’?
good pok*r players would have been down there with a list as long as my intestines of instances where this has taken place. you let them bully you and get outraged and you fold.
the stupid part is that they keep folding when they have REALLY good hands.
Edited ** and released by MOD
Why would anyone respect the Chimp’s Skull & Bones brother, Kerry, who threw the election for him?
3 germane facts:
Kerry seemed capable of winning the debate w/ Mr. voice box on his back Chimperator, but:
1)Kerry stated during the debates that “There’s no doubt Saddam posed a threat to the U.S.” (Bad enough to adopt the oppositions talking pts., worse when they’re insane lies.)
2) Also in debates, Bush whiningly called J.K. “too liberal.” K. made no defense of any kind of the word or concept liberal. (It was Chimpy who praised F.D.R. (!!) during the debates, Kerry no)
3) When Ohio was stolen, Kerry rolled over and gave Bush the election.
Throw these compromised liars out! As Malcolm X used to say, “If you can’t tell the truth, you don’t even deserve freedom.” MoveOn’s a bit too namby pamby liberal for me, but good for them on this one!
Does MoveOn sometimes take things too far? Possibly. Somebody has to. Conversely, I find it curious that the MSM never crows about how any of the far more disturbing, dangerous right-wing lunatic diatribes from Dobson, Robertson and their ilk destroys any positive works by the Moderate Right.
I was recently reminded of a powerful Stokely Carmichael AKA Kwame Ture quote while watching Samuel L. Jackson interviewed on The Henry Rollins Show:
While Carmichael’s classic Black Power oratory was in the context of the Civil Rights movement of the ’60s, these words ring loud and true today. Are we not all now fighting for our civil rights? Are we not all now at risk of some form of enslavement 21st Century style?
I’m finished with those “progressives” constantly cowed by their fear of criticism for speaking truth to power. Everybody needs to understand that the prior and continued success of the neo-con power grab depends on this very fear. Far too many on our “side” are far too cautious — overly concerned about maintaining and/or gaining purely artificial media popularity.
Rather than beg for popularity, those on the right demand and receive it doing so by force if necessary. This openly cruel, mean-spirited bunch of neo-con jerks & assholes flip us all off and continue their brazen destruction of our Constitutional government.
They are laughing at us, stealing from us and, yes, even killing some of us. Yet our duly elected representatives are so terribly concerned with matters of politesse? You have to be fucking kidding me!
Let’s all get this crystal clear:
It’s time to grow up. The time for strict adherence to manners is over. The time to be concerned about bruising egos is over. The time to quake in fear of an unfairly critical media over.
We must stand together and stand strong. We cannot and should not concern ourselves with winning any Miss Manners awards or Beltway/MSM popularity contests. However, we must strictly adhere to the very principles of our democracy as we pursue the most important of goals: to take our country back.
AF
I personally wish Moveon had billboards for the ad across the country. If Cokie Roberts and Joe Lieberman find it “disgusting”, well that’s all the more reason for me to like it. Actually I looked briefly and I thought the ad was pretty sober.
Andrew G @ 196
That bothers me too. American troops, plus Iraqi civilians tallies to more than half a million. Then there are the casualties and displaced. According to DiFi 25,000 troops wounded, many permanently disabled, and an unprecendented amount with brain damage. How many Iraqis are the same? How many refugess are in limbo, unwanted by neighboring countries, the U.S. and danger of dying of terrible living conditions among other things. Cholera. 4,000 doesn’t even begin to address the cost to human beings.
Jane – you are wonderful. I always look forward to your posts, as you say what I am thinking, but am unable to say as elequently. My husband did not like the MoveOn ad – I thought it was brilliant. We are both greatly saddened by the inability of Democrats to get their acts together. Your point that some Dems are busily stabbing their greatest supporters in the back, basically ignoring the intentions of the public who elected them, is painfully true. I agree – MoveOn seems willing to take the heat, to make the points – tell the truth – that would be politically difficult by our representatives and congresspeople – but THEY, not MoveOn, have the ultimate responsibility and DUTY to represent their constituancy. My husband and I keep wondering when we will see this happening. At least the Dems refused to go along with the Republicans efforts to “punish” MoveOn. That’s a step in the right direction. HEY, DEMS, TAKE A HINT FROM MOVEON, AND SHOW SOME SPINE!!! Don’t allow BushCo to control the message, any more. The people are behind you. And, Thanks, again, Jane, for the follow-up. I’m sure you have many fans!!
The problem is: idiocy is dead certain, intelligence has doubt. Idiocy always has the edge.
RockPaperScizzors @ 169
OK, sometime tomorrow afternoon I’ll post the “new” lyrics
Further, I’m reminded of a passage in the Bugliosi book about the 2000 election. He said something like it’s odd how judges are held in high esteem while lawyers and politicians are despised. Yet judges are both lawyers and politicians. (Sandra Day O’Connor, for instance, was head of the GOP in Arizona before she was rewarded for her good political service by appointment to the SCOTUS.) Something about being a high ranking military poo-bah exempts Petreus and Powell and their ilk from being identified for what they are: politicians.
OK, so this one was simnple…
Didn’t take as long as I thought
“This war will go on forever”
To the tune of “Tomorrow”
The war’ll go on
forever
Bet your final dollar
That forever
There’ll be War!
Just laughin’ about
Tomorrow
All the the misery,
And the sorrow
Yes there’s more!
When we’re hit with a bomb
That’s big,
And deadly,
I just run in my hole
And hide
And Say,
Oh
The war’ll rage on
past tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on
as we borrow
all that pay,
Petreaus!
Petreaus!
We waited on
Petreaus!
We already knew what he’d say!
rwcole @ 73
I guess that’s all the Republicans have.
Vote Democratic because government should work for you!
Democrats: Start Stopping the War!
You can be an elected Democratic representative and still be voted out of office in 2008!
It’s not a threat. It’s a fact. The People are counting the dead. How many more?
snowbird42 @ 106
A lot of people have already suffered the cost of Republican politicians. In New Orleans and along the Gulf coast they felt the effects of intentional neglect after Hurricane Katrina. In Minneapolis people died because of a bridge which was known to be deficient, but would’ve cost too much money to fix. I hesitate to blame anyone for the effects of the 9/11 attacks, but it is clear Bush didn’t do enough to stop it. Hundreds of thousands have lost their homes due to the Republican idea that “government is the problem” and they wouldn’t dare to use it to regulate the mortgage lending industry. How much more suffering we, as a country, must face is unclear, but a lot of Americans have made their decision with regard to the Iraq war/occupation/disaster. I just hope we don’t require many more disasters before the Republicans turn more fully against Bush and force the hands of their Republican senators, so we can begin a long journey by ending the war in Iraq and getting rid of Bush & Cheney.
Senator Boxer is terrific!
I hope she takes strength from knowing there are many of us out here in the hinterlands who are fighting for the same causes she champions and we support her.
Democrats can be self-critical at times, but I’ve never heard a word of criticism towards Ms. Boxer and that’s rare. I hope she finds other close personal support because this is a marathon fight.
Steve-AR @ 113
Reid has to suggest an alternative Bush might accept. And, you know that won’t be easy if you want someone qualified to be AG.
dakine01 @ 14
Ditto – also can we all remember the republicans’ attacks on Max Cleland and John Kerry — decorated Vietnam warriors.
Well said.
Further points: always challenge the assumption; it is almost always wrong. Always choose words and labels carefully, because they do: its now the “death” tax, not the federal estate and gift tax. So, progressives should call it the Paris Hilton tax. She does not need another 300 million from daddy to throw birthday parties. Never play their game. The critical issue for progressives is whether we should get on their level and seek to destroy conservative support personally. I have shied away from this in the past, but they get away with nearly murder, so I think the time has come to take the gloves off and let them have it. No one who supports this should be safe. Boycott businesses. Name names. Create research offices to dig deep for the best/worst that is there. They are doing it to us and we need to retake the offensive. And make no mistake, it is offensive, but our progressive policies and the party may not survive otherwise.