Matt Stoller takes up the subject of "risk-averse" progressive culture, and uses the MoveOn ad regarding General Petraeus as an example of wherein the problem lies. He points to one particularly infuriating email from The Truman Project, in which they encourage their progressive veterans to denounce MoveOn:
Those of you who saw the NYTimes today saw that MoveOn took out a full page ad equating Petraeus with "Betray Us" and accusing him of politicizing the military.
In one fell swoop, they have undone massive work by countless progressives trying to bridge the gap with the military and reconnect.
What's this "we," kemosabe? MoveOn is always out there, fighting the good fight, they've done more to move the anti-war dialog in this country than just about any organization I know. They will, as a result, always inevitably be the target of the right. I do think it's possible to have differences of opinion in good faith about the ad, but when people start to claim the progress made by "progressives" as their own, and MoveOn is something suddenly outside of that, it's just spurious bullshit.
I'm sorry, John Kerry, but you don't help the right wing out. Ever. Now they've got Diaper Dave out there leading the battle cry, trying to reclaim himself by introducing resolutions to denounce MoveOn. Does Kerry really not know how it works at this point? Paul Krugman does, and he lays it out extremely well in a review of Jon Chiat's new book:
Jon talks at some length about the media, and in particular about the Republican ability to get journalists to harp endlessly on supposed character flaws of Democrats, while their own candidates get a free pass. He emphasizes the right-wing echo chamber, but there’s more to it than that. It’s also – as I can report from my own experience – a result of asymmetrical intimidation. Quite simply, if you point out character flaws in a conservative, there will be an all-out effort, involving major media as well as blogs and talk radio, to discredit and ruin you, personally. This just doesn’t happen on the other side.
So journalists feel that it’s safe to ridicule Democrats, even if the supposed character-defining episode never happened; they choke up and shy away when it comes to Republicans. That’s why even the most grotesque stuff, like Giuliani’s claim that he’s a rescue worker too, or Romney’s remark that his sons are serving the country by helping him become president, doesn’t get picked up.
One of the most frustrating things about getting involved in the political process with Blue America is that we have to confront on a daily basis how little our representatives know about how the media works, how thoroughly it has been gamed by conservatives and how easily they consistently get played. They're so anxious to please, to seem "reasonable," that their reflex is to repeat canards about "those crazy blogs" (or MoveOn or anybody else trying to build progressive infrastructure) without any awareness that they are planting a knife squarely in the back of the only message machine that exists to combat a rabid right wing that doesn't just want to see them disempowered, it wants them destroyed. Permanently.
I realize many Democrats are just as frightened of the progressive movement as they are of the Republicans and were probably quite gleeful about getting to take MoveOn down a peg, but this only goes to underscore how woefully out of touch they are with what is going on in this country and how distant the perspective of the voting public is from the wisdom of the beltway brahmins. Markos fielded the question of the MoveOn ad beautifully on Hardball yesterday:
To me, you know, way out in California, it’s almost amusing to see how in Washington DC, everybody is all up in arms over an ad. You know, we’re in the middle of this bloody war, almost 4,000 dead, half a trillion dollars spent, and people are going to talk about how inappropriate an ad is? I think it’s patently ridiculous. And most people, outside of this sort of Beltway environment really don’t care about an ad. They want to see our men and women coming home, safe and sound to their families.
The MoveOn ad said what Democrats could not and survive politically -- Petraeus is acting as a politician, doing a politican's job of spinning and his actions are not above criticism just because he's got a bunch of ribbons on his chest that George Bush would like to hide behind. And it traveled. To join with the right and start firing arrows into their backs is both destructive from a movement perspective and displays tremendous naivite about what it's going to take to end this war. So unless there is some mysterious wisdom in taking one's messaging cues from Diaper Dave Vitter, people who want to be part of the solution and not a part of the problem should find another way to engage in this conversation.
(h/t Phoenix Woman for the Krugman post)
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huh? Oh, this cannot be.
The Accidental Zeddist
….or not
Congrat, cleter.
I told the gang in the last thread that I was fair…*g*
Dommage, punaise. Un de ces jours…
Is the blog broken or something? How did I slip through?
heh.
single digits…
No question but that the ‘Democrat’ Party has no idea of what the country is thinking. That’s why I posted:
Why I am an Idiot!
And why every democratic ‘consultant’ and staffer should be made to go to the blackboard and write same…
One thousand times.
Hello, Jane…
Excellente, Jane, and possible single digits.
Diaper Dave wants to denounce MoveOn’s ad?
Erm, protected political speech, anyone???
Good god, do none of these reactionaries actually ever READ the constitution?
There were Guiliani people campaigning on campus yesterday–though their permit was for a “9/11 memorial”–and I though that was a lot more distasteful and disrespectful than the MoveOn ad.
I don’t care HOW Petraeus, et al. try to couch his testimony - he was doing what Bush and Cheney wanted him to do and say. He’s a shill. Soldiers count on their commanders to be leaders - and that means that they depend on them for their best judgement and independence. I wouldn’t trust Petraeus to get me across the street - he’d be checking with the Chief Chimpaholic for directions first.
Hi Jane - Yes, I agree. Democrats are terrified of Progressives. They are just like the Democratic Party in 1896 when they were losing to the Progressive Party. They had sold out to corporations and were running scared. So, history repeats itself in the 21 century style.
Thanks for standing with MoveOn. It’s time for me to make another contribution to them.
Brava Jane!!!!!
QuakerGirl @ 13
The GOP has been demonizing Progressives for how long? One of the major problems with the Democratic Party is they STILL allow the GOP to define the issues and form the message that gets out. “Progressive”? Shoot..no one in his right mind would want to even get close to one. We all ought to have to make a small child walk in front of us with a bell and a sign like they did to lepers in the old days so that the populace can run away.
A-fucking-men.
‘Progressive’ is just another word for caring about a square deal, a fair deal, justice and accountablity. I think much of the demonization of progressives like me are beamed by not just the Republicans and blue dogs etc., but by the DLC as well. Many in my party are not looking at the big picture. Progressives are “the base”.
Define “far enough”.
AP - Senate Democratic leaders on Wednesday rejected the call by the top U.S. general in Iraq for a reduction of up to 30,000 U.S. troops in Iraq by next summer, saying it does not go far enough.
Jane,
Brilliantly said.
Thank you.
Amen!
peanutbutter @ 10
No.
Another example of simple answers to simple (rhetorical) questions. ;})
For those of us who have never been averse to sticking our tongues out at the idiots in charge it is a bit disheartening when many “progressives” forget that we need to assert ourselves…calmly is best, forcefully if required, into the great national dialog for our collective soul (not to mention the Constitution).
John Kerry, even after his loss in ‘04 still seems to think that being courtly/gallant/gentlemanly will win against the likes of Rove/Thompkins/the RNC. Yo, John, does the name “Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth” ring a bell or two?
I’m unemployed right now, but MoveOn will get $10 from me next time I get a paycheck. Gar-on-teed.
Fighting internally over tactics sounds just like the argument in the last thread over what constitutes a “legitimate” blog…
I once read somewhere (in a science fiction novel, I believe), that successful movements need bomb throwers on the outside and subtle manipulators on the inside. The idea is that a two-front assault is made on the entrenched power structure to throw them off-balance and make it more likely to dislodge them. And as Jane pointed out, no politician could be so blunt and survive politically. Campaigns routinely use proxies for this kind of thing. MoveOn’s crime is not being a proxy for a politician, I guess.
Shame on Kerry and The Truman Project and anyone else who swallows the rightwing faux outrage hook, line and sinker. This is the exact thing that was done with Wellstone’s memorial and the CBS TANG documents and countless other times to create a controversy over nothing instead of facing the allegations head-on.
Meanwhile these self-professed politically correct gasbags on the right have no trouble calling Democrats traitors and comparing them to Hitler or bin Laden. Looking to them for guidance on social behavior is beyond stupid, it’s pathetic.
Perhaps the attack on Moveon.org is another shiny object that is meant to divert attention….
Just think Kerry fell for it…
Hoping he was smart enough to see that coming…
Guess not….
until dems loosen the grip the DLC has on them they’ll never stand up for democratic values - i saw john kerry dismiss the moveon ad… if anyone knows how dirty repugs play it’d be HIM!!now DLC dems are trotted out to “denounce” the ad - truly disgusting
excellent jane!
i thought the moveon ad was great - but more importantly, it pushed the envelope to widen the limits of what is permissable to think and to say. would it have been better if there had been no ad? no way. moveon is taking the arrows so our more timid pols and pundits don’t have to. good for moveon.
… i was really pissed at moveon this spring - but with this ad, and their recent poll asking if pro-war dems should be primaried, i back to being a member and a supporter.
The only thing that bugged me about the ad was the “Betray-us” line which I found juvenile. Other than that I thought it was a legitimate point of view. But dig how fast it put us on our heels ?
Amen Jane. (and kudos Markos. If only our leaders had the same media presence)
I sometimes explain our sides willingness to snipe each other as a necessity of having such diversity in our party.
Then I think about Chris Shays and Tom Delay - pretty darn disparate (CT Old money GOP, Southern faux bible GOP), yet they didnt consistently undercut each other messages or vote against each other when it mattered. Amazing when you think about it.
I really appreciate you breaking this elephant into bite-size pieces each day. Seems so damn overwhelming fighting these battles sometimes, its great to have a general like you leading the way. :)
The MoveOn ad also has the virtue of being amplified by these pundits.
Petraeus just commented on the MoveOn ad at his and Crocker’s news conference on CSPAN 1. He said that they were exercising their First Amendment rights which had been preserved by generations of servicemen (i.e. like him)
Both sound pretty relaxed because I think they know that they were successful in their mission of prolonging the “surge” and this stupid war.
ticktock @ 22
Kerry’s weakness is and always has been his position that “I’m too well bred to go along with this” - whether it was the Swiftboating or whatever, his behavior always comes down to not getting involved in stuff that he considers sweaty or dirty. He would not “stoop” to dealing with the Swiftboaters until it was too late (and by then he’d been “defined” as a wimp) and this is all of a piece - what he is saying is “we must behave and play nicely with one another lest we offend.” Sorry, John. The GOP doesn’t give a rat’s ass who they offend…or send off to war..or throw out of a job…or cut off from healthcare. I don’t mind being found “revolting” - if revolting is the best way we can fight against the GOP.
Hugh @ 28
I hate that fucking attitude. Don’t do me any favors, General.
Tim @ 25
But how much attention would the ad have received without the Betray-us line? Pretty much none at all.
Isn’t it nice to force the Right wing to defend the meme once in a while? The more they denounce the line, the more it penetrates the conscious of the average voter and becomes part of the record that BushCo betrayed our military.
Well said, Toby.
betrayus and crocked did as they were told….meantime the war marches ever onward……with no end soon in sight
I was surprised as well to hear John Kerry say that last night night about the MoveOn ad. I mean, of all people, he should know better.
Toby Wollin @ 29
Okay, right behind you…
Where do I sign up?….
Point taken but I also agree with the “shiny object” concept which I see as detrimental.
Right — it’s all about the ad.
And every progressive in this country should have been able to predict that an ad like that would do nothing but divert attention away from what Petraeus was saying.
The ad was beyond counter-productive. It wrote the script for every wingnut demogogue in this country.
You can defend MoveOn if you feel so inclined by saying that they are right about Petraeus but that’s irrelevant since what they did was egregiously stupid, and worse, unnecessary from a political standpoint.
They only folks swayed by the ad were progressives who distanced themselves from MoveOn. They sure didn’t bring anybody new over from the dark side.
Jane, joo have said eet before een another context, to be certain, and I know thees weel sound counter-intuitive, but…
I remember joo (or maybe CHS) comparing NARAL to the NRA, some months ago, w/r/t a vote on reproductive rights. NARAL deed no look so good by comparison, wheech breengs us to politicians and blogs.
?How would the NRA handle a politician who had wronged their membership, or let them down on a key vote?
?Would they make nicey-nice, sigh and say sometheeng about a beeg tent, or would they immediately begin seeking to fund a primary challenger?
I (and many other pipples here) may not like what the NRA stands for, but there ees no doubt that the NRA has integrity. Eet may be integrity only as eet pertains to internal cohesiveness, (not moral integrity) but they sure can use eet to keep their politicians een line.
We need the spineless Democrats to be more scared of us then they are of the Republiculos and their gang of professional enablers een the press. We need to let them know that eef they don’t stand up for what the Democratic Party ees supposed to stand for, then they weel have no support, no dolares for their campaign, no volunteers working the precinct. All of thees weel go to whoever walks the walk.
They need to know that eef they continue to act as cringing invertebrates, then they weel have to go through emergency-spine-reinsertion-treatments, and that thees process can be…most uncomfortable.
so.
Hugh @ 28
They sound pretty relaxed because the ad worked in their favor and they know it.
Since we’re on the topic of arrows and such. I got a bit of feedback last night from some Democratic friends and family in Texas regarding Noriega. They read his stuff when he was here the other day. The concensus? they remain uncovinced, don’t trust the man and don’t like him. And feel the same about Noriega as I do about Hillary. Trapped.
cleter @ 11
Excellent illustration of Jane’s point. Has anyone come up with a picture of HoJo and Adam’s apple Coulter at Hannity’s 9/11 bash yet? I tried, and no luck yet.
Great work, Jane.
I’m glad to see the Beltway Dems nailed on their fear of the Progressive movement.
They’ve lost the plot.
Now for the NRA treatment - political destruction - for Beltway/National Dems obstructing progressive causes.
The Beltway Dems opposing the Progressive movement serve the Money party - just like Rethugs.
And the Beltway Dems will have closets full of personal skeletons.
I look forward to seeing the obstructionist Beltway Dems with financial/personal indiscretions outed and their political careers destroyed.
Every day in Iraq their obstruction kills.
Every day in US hospitals, their obstruction kills.
They deserve no mercy, no loyalty, no support.
The obstuctionist Dems deserve political destruction by any non-violent means possible.
Fuck their careers and their “party loyalty” - lives and the Republic are at stake.
Identify them, hunt them, attack them, destroy them.
Mercy for the Beltway Dems who join the Progressive movement - misery and fear for those who oppose it.
May they never know a moment of peace so long as they prolong the Iraq occupation.
May the spirits and terror and rage of those who die in agony - here and in Iraq - trouble every moment of the Obstructionists’ lives.
May the energy of those departed spirits animate the Obstructionists’ fear and misery.
Without violence, may the Dem Obstructionists’ careers perish and may their fortunes dwindle - so long as the Occupation of Iraq or the megacorps’ Occupation of our Republic continue.
May the suffering the Obstructionists choose to create provide the energy for their misery.
So mote it be.
Hugh @ 28
Isn’t that funny? How come the so-called “conservatives” never seem to respond that way?
That’s one reason I agree that today’s wing-nuts are not real conservatives - I grew up with a real one, my Dad. It was he who taught me that everyone has rights, every defendant, no matter how loathsome, is entitled to defense, that our liberties do not include trampling on the liberties of others.
Brava, Jane! And bravo, Kos.
The popinjays in the Duchy of Columbia oughta just get over themselves. They all act like a lousy Regency novel–having the vapors.
Demand better. Be better.
I expected Petraeus to have a shaved head. And be sucking on a lolipop. And say “Crock-ah!!”
AJ @ 39
Yes, because it was negative and we all know how unsuccessful negative political advertising has been. *g*
I think we should call it Diaper Dave and the Shrinking Violet Amendment or Mothers Little Helper Bill.
IIRC, The MoveOn ad had great big question mark in the main text. It was not declarative statement.
Considering the amount of repetition it has received along with the scorn of Lieberman and Duncan Hunter.. I would say it was a brilliant success and I am delighted to say I contributed to MoveOns email asking for contributions for the ad last week.
The Betray-us thing is kinda old news and not original to MoveOn. I’m still pissed about that article by this guy Feaver that was in the Boston Globe and other papers yesterday.
Under what circumstances did the two of the troops who wrote the op-ed in the NYT die? After Tillman, that is a question that should be asked.
Prairie Sunshine @ 44
707
The right wing pols clutch at pearls while the left wing has the vapors! Perfect description.
I just don’t understand all the self loathing and immolation over this freaking ad. Every word in it was true. Petraeus has been shilling for Bush in a dishonorable fashion, for a military man in his position, since he made an intentional and dishonest attempt to influence the 2004 election (who knows; he may actually have) by writing his “everything is peachy in Iraq” editorial supporting the Administration in the Washington Post. Could a couple of words have been phrased more delicately in the caption; probably, but every word in the ad is true; that is what is important.
Furthermore, the fact is, it was the Surgin General’s own fellow military officers and troops that coined the term “General Betrayus”. Jam that and the fact that every single word in the ad is true right back down anybody’s throat that makes a peep. These junk concerns are exactly why we always get rolled over. It is there; beat them over the head with it any way you can. Time to quit apologizing for being impolite to a bunch of traitors that are ruining our country; and Petraeus has been belligerently right with them the whole time. I have no symapthy. Democrats should stop beating themselves up for this junk; leave the self flaggellation to Republicans in airport stalls.
el gato negro said:
and:
los
You are too funny, gatito, mi amor,. May I borrow this word of yours? I like it.
!El Gato Negro! @ 38:
LOL!
You know, I wouldn’t have done it that way — the way MoveOn did. They are completely correct in everything they stated with the Petraeus add and I have no issue with their position. I just know that they are preaching to the choir for anyone who would be inclined to agree with the information and are not going to change the mind of anyone disinclined to agree, quite the opposite. Then, on top of that, they give the narrow minded, mewing morons a softball to bat around for a news cycle instead of talking about the real issues like what a liar George Bush is.
Now, all that being stated. It wouldn’t have been my play, but MoveOn has been in the trenches and have always been consistent with their message and if any group has won the right to exercise their first amendment rights, it’s these guys.
I think that’s all any true progressive needs to say, “It wouldn’t have been my play, but they’ve got a perfect right to make that case and if you can’t contest the message then you’re making an obvious point of it by focusing on the packaging. Let’s talk about real issues now, shall we.” I wish John Kerry had said that.
That picture reminds me of the Far Side cartoon where a guy is being carried off the ramparts of the castle face-down on a stretcher with arrows sticking out of his ass, and the caption says:
“So I say to Hans, ‘While nothing’s going on, let’s moon these Saxon dogs.’”
The bad polling news is hitting Rudy in waves right about now. There’s the new Washington Post poll, which finds him at his lowest point this year:
Giuliani’s support dropped from 37 percent in a July poll to 28 percent in the latest survey, and his decline from February has been even more sharp. Then, he had the backing of 53 percent of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents and had a better than 2 to 1 advantage over his closest rival.
It defies my ability to understand why everyone is so afraid of progressives.
It seems the Republicans have turned it into a negative just as they have the word liberal.
Being a progressive is tantamount to being un American?
Fuck that.
Progressives need to start taking the lead because the main stream Democrats aren’t doing squat except being afraid of their own shadows.
Perhaps the much wanted third party is where we should focus our attention as liberals and progressives. The other two certainly could use some healthy competition.
Hey Jane!
We just got back late last night from our first ever vacation during our married life (no, we were not even able to have a honeymoon) — and I scooted over here as soon as possible to discover (as anticipated) that you are still bringing refreshing truth to the front page of Firedoglake. Yay!
We were without internet toobz virtually the whole time — waaaahhh! But I get the blogz fired up to discover that it’s the same ol’ crap, the same ol’ fear of the truth, and the same ol’ lack of justice happening as before our trip. Sigh.
Still, the fight goes on. And now, though tired from the ordeals of travel, we’re refreshed and ready to remount our battle stations.
So very good to see you write such goodness. And it’s wonderful to see all the Firepups again, with such astute comments.
Hi there, Pups! Love y’all!!! Hugs and kisses all ’round.
Beerfart Liberal @ 48
What was that? Link?
tejunarusa
si, y de nada.
Use eet and spread eet around, how-joo-say “liberally”
Republiculo
Current prices for crude oil:
Nymex Crude Future $79.80
Dated Brent Spot $78.15
WTI Cushing Spot $79.78
These are near record. The EIA report came out today indicating that crude oil supplies dropped by 7.1 million bbls last week. Gasoline inventories were relatively steady with a drop of .7 million bbls. What kills me about all this is that even with these drops in crude oil supplies they still remain at the high end of their average range.
There is no reason to back down from the statement that he betrayed us. His own commanders are saying he is lying, he has made statements that are lies. One stands up to a bully and puts them down if you wish for them to stop their actions. It is time to show these people for what they are, lying, bullying war criminals. There is a degree to which we are going to get the far right to agree with our assessment of such people, but there is no reason at all to back down from a statement of fact.
The military is fed up with what they have become. Police to the Iraqi people? This has to be turning most of our troops into the guards of the Stanford Prison Experiment. They will have mental problems for the rest of their days. It is ridiculous to think that any of these people are going to come home normal to anyone around them after enduring the torture of being a torturer. I don’t mean that they are all torturer’s, but they are being forced into a position of being that guard that ends up being an abuser. These guys are in the far less stable position where they are being killed as they try to help those that kill them.
If we do not want our military home because they are all mentally unstable from the longest prison guard job in the history of our nation, then the country needs to tell us this. Will they?
If we want them back sane, we best do so now and realize that we will be counseling these people for the mental anguish of being a prison guard over a people they don’t understand, being ordered to do things that are against their sense of right and wrong, and these are the simple fundamentals. When you add in that some have had to kill, some have had to do things to protect themselves that didn’t allow them to spare the innocent.
Blackwater will be our new army if we do not get our citizen soldiers home, and provide them with some real help for what has to be the worst experience of their lives. And one they won’t soon get over. You have many thousands of potentially PSTD people that are going to need our help not to explode at their country’s lack of regard for their well being.
MoveOn is commended for attacking this little soldier. This 15th choice of a “leader” to repeat the gospel of st. cheney. It is a serial liar, it was the job description he had to pass to be considered. Let’s be realistic here. This is a cheap little two bit replacement when others said NO, hell no I won’t do that to my men.
One should decide what progressive means. It is time to attack. It is time to be counted for people that are not sure the republican form of government was meant to be so devoid of democracy. My representative doesn’t care what I say. My last one did care, but was it because he thinks a bit more like me? It is, or was, everyone’s right to free speech. And free speech will crush these little pieces of excrement as they wash down the drain.
Eureka Springs @ 47
Anything that gets the scorn of Lieberman and D. Hunter is okay with me….
I thought the Move-On ad was perfect. I’m tired of our Dems in DC acting like quivering bowls of Jello every time an unkind word is said. When will they understand that’s the way Repubs play the game and we had better fight back in the same way. Wimps !
johnSwifty @ 54
Seriously, use the opportunity to direct the discussion to the facts.
It is an interesting issue.
If I understand the thesis of the post it is that too many folks on the dem side of the aisle are ‘nice’ and are unwilling to go down the assholian road.
The thing is, you can always just use a different road - the one named assertive.
In fact, I seem to recall the author of the post herself storming that road in a pup-powered cavalcade when the need arose (numerous times) in the past.
.
The Goopers are crying because they got Rochambeau’d by Move-on.
Sometimes, the Truth hurts right thru the happy talk.
!El Gato Negro! @ 60
Mil gracias, gato. (btw, yo tengo dos de tus tocayos. Que nombre excelente!)
Jane, you are, . . .
Morally, ethic’lly
Spiritually, physically
Positively, absolutely
Undeniably and reliably Dead On!
I want the MoveOn Ad campaign to become a MO for the progressive movement. I am so sick of the
Death Tax
No Child Left Behind
Opportunity Society
Global War on Terror
Homeland Security
Patriot Act
Shock and Awe
Mission Accomplished
Fair & Balanced
Commander In Chief
Compassionate Conservatism
we have been living with.
“Betray Us” works. It is devastating in its effect and that it why it has the Republicans foaming at the mouths. We should never miss an opportunity to point to the truth behind each and every new GW circus act by finding a few simple words that describe what the Republicans are really up to.
RossK @ 66
I thought “assertive” was the very road Jane was talking about here.
bustednuckles at 57:
Being a progressive is tantamount to being un American? Fuck that.
Maybe joo should go tell Instapundit… apparently he ees on one of hees
“not anti-war, just on the other side” jaunts.
un frotacionado grande, no?
so.
bmaz @ 51
Amen to this. The public sees this Petraeus as not much different than a lying tobacco executive in front of Congress, except for the medals all over his chest. The Republicans and Bush are trying to hide behind this swindler, so he’s the one you knock down.
Crude Oil hits $80 per barrel- an new record.. troops are dyin in Iraq- the war is goin to cost a trillion dollars. We’re teetering on the brink of recession due to too much debt-public and private the dollar is at a new low- medical costs are up at over twice the rate of inflation…our government is as dysfunctional as Iraq’s…
So let’s critique TeeVee ads?
Speaking of Petraeus, I can’t imagine that the President and his people are pleased with his performance. Both Petraeus and Crocker actually seemed to be stammering and stuttering after Feingold’s questions. Obama seemed to throw them for a loop. I can’t imagine that Joe Wilson, who used to be second in command to the Ambassador of Iraq, wouldn’t have had more qualitative answers than Crocker. And, you’re right, Petraeus is being far too political, but that’s not news in this administration. I doubt that he thinks he’s being political, either, which just shows that he’s being very masterfully played, and that he’s entirely too gullible and oblivious to what’s going on in the neighboring areas.
So how long before you figure this administration dumps the both of them? I don’t think they’ll last more than six months. I think they seriously did some damage to their credibility yesterday. I hope so, ‘cuz they sure left a lot to be desired. I would prefer a general with his responsibilities would be more familiar with the big picture.
Yeah, what’s The Truman Project done to bring our troops home, anyway?
Wankers.
abiodun — Some folks who have connections to the 82nd airborne tell me that they were riding in a transport vehicle that took a turn in darkness and it slipped over the side of a very steep cliff, and tumbled about 30 feet (give or take). There were apparently 7 soldiers killed in the accident.
The Turman Project - isn’t that the movie with Jim Carrey?
Hedge funds are showering money on Congress while stonewalling their bankrupt
racketenterprise from the light of day.Kiss your ass goodbye boys. Game is over.
TeddySanFran @ 75
“Truman” is totally neocon code, by the way, like “Scoop Jackson”.
tejanarusa:
The fur, eet hides my blushing.
so.
Jane, most excellent!
Slightly OT, but connected, I believe.
What comments has Mistah Kerry offered in regard to that little police riot yesterday?
Now THAT was offensive. The priorities of the msd’s never fail to amaze me. ‘Let us all be wuz-zes,’ mustn’t dirty OUR little paws.
The ‘vapors,’ indeed!
David W. Bartoo @ 80
If the word Betray-us is good enough for the guys getting shot at, it’s good enough for me.
David W. Bartoo @ 80
Does anyone know what the latest is? I’ve seen nothing.
Don’t hold back, oldtree. Tell us what you really think. It pretty much agree. I do not think the First Amendment applies only to Republicans. I find it more than odd that those who sling so much mud can’t stand to hear something that hits a little too close to the truth.
And it got the idea out there. Petraeus is not the great general Bush and the Republicans want to paint him as. Everytime they opened their mouths to whine about the MoveOn ad they reminded everyone that there are many who do not think so. It made Petraeus an issue. It began the re-branding of him. A lot of people are going to have Betray-us tickle at the edge of their consciousness in coming months as more Americans die in Iraq for no good reason.
tejanarusa @ 59:
I’m not sure how to work the lik thing-y, but if I get it right, here’s a link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t.....284289.ece
Or did you mean the Feaver piece?
I also like attacking Petraeus because it’s a modest start at countering the dangerous prestige the military in this country have.
Bam !
And Jane, this:
Just beautiful. Amen.
The entire neo con fiasco is a betrayal and Petraus was the poster child of the Summer by his own free will. One 70 thousand dollar full page ad in the NYT raised that question perfectly and injected into the national psyche . It’s a nasty question far to many have avoided asking.
Beerfart Liberal @ 85
Actually, yes, I meant the Feaver piece. But, hey, your link works fine!
Mrs. K8 @ 70
I can’t believe my eyes!!
MrsK8, sooo good to see you!
Namaste
brendan @ 78
Even though he was a Democrat, they kinda like them some Truman cuz he unleashed the terrible giant mushroom. They are awestruck by that and drool at the prospect of one of their own leaders glassing someplace.
Dubya is just the guy to do it.
Hugh @ 84
See me @ #31 for concurrence (fwiw)
Yes Jane!
Let’s focus our invective at those who deserve it, namely neocons, war criminals, blue dog dems, and media shills.
Once again, the R’s used Rovian tactics to shift the focus of the moveon ad from “Patreous lies” to “nasty left-wing bloggy types say mean things about us god fearing heroes”. The supine press licks it up.
Twain @ 81
I agree completely, that is the region where its use originated. To bad Mistah Kerry is at such a remove from the sentiments of those folks on the (front) line. I wonder if he even read that NYT piece by the seven soldiers, now four?
RE: The Feaver piece, I wrote this another place here this a.m.
Some knucklehead had an op-ed in my local paper yesterday - it was in the Boston Globe too. The guy says that “This is a defining moment for the anti-war faction.” See, he explains, MoveOn is playing the role of Joe McCarthy and “supporters of the war are duty bound, like Joseph Welch, to rise and ask of war opponents,’Have you left no sense of decency?’” Get it?
It’s a bogu