It’s “gimme more FUs day.” I’m going to try and liveblog as much of the Petraeus/Crocker Dog and Pony Show and WH-Written Talking Points as I can. Do try to restrain yourself on comments to be kind to the servers and your liveblogger. Thanks!
Today, I’m featuring this lovely photo (via CNN) of WH/GOP message man Ed Gillespie to give him some public credit for manufacturing both the Petraeus and Crocker public talking points and the GOP-caucus strategic coordination as well. Via Open Left:
As if this is not obvious already.
Another new arrival in the West Wing set up a rapid-response PR unit hard-wired into Petraeus’s shop. Ed Gillespie, the new presidential counselor, organized daily conference calls at 7:45 a.m. and again late in the afternoon between the White House, the Pentagon, the State Department, and the U.S. Embassy and military in Baghdad to map out ways of selling the surge.
From the start of the Bush plan, the White House communications office had been blitzing an e-mail list of as many as 5,000 journalists, lawmakers, lobbyists, conservative bloggers, military groups and others with talking points or rebuttals of criticism. Between Jan. 10 and last week, the office put out 94 such documents in various categories — “Myths/Facts” or “Setting the Record Straight” to take issue with negative news articles, and “In Case You Missed It” to distribute positive articles or speeches. (emphasis mine)
Dodge and phony show indeed. This is the WHIG strategy…again.
____________________
SEN. MENENDEZ QUESTIONS: Thank you for your service. Honor the sacrifices of our men and women in uniform — whichis why we must give them a policy that is worthy of their sacrifices, and we are not meeting that standard. Crocker, you said that competition between various factions is a competition between power and resources, not for building a nation. And we have American sons and daughters dying for this currently. Petraeus says that nation building is part of it — and Menendez says that is not what you said on page two of your testimony, and that he appreciates Petraeus putting it so bluntly in writing for the Congress. He points out that you are accellerating along the same timeline to bring the surge troops back home over the next six months and further — Petraeus says that what he is not doing is recommending continuing the surge.
Menendez says that what we are going ot end up with at July of next year is basically what we started with in February of this year. So where we are going to be is exactly where we were last January/February. In the category of “fully independent” and “with coalition support” — Iraqi forces are just about where they were in November of 2006. Eleven months later, we are still at about the same levels. Petraeus says that the key reason for that is that Iraqis have been fighting and dying, which has made it difficult to maintain their level of readiness and equipment maintenance.
With what you know today, how many more years will American soldiers have to continue in Iraq? Petraeus says that he can’t give an answer. That he would be doing a disservice to our soldiers if he tried to layout a timeline — I’m as frustrated with this situation as anyone else, this is going on a 3 year deployment for me on top of a year in Bosnia. Menendez says he appreciates that — as do all those families who are also dealing with this seemingly endless conflict. The Benchmarks were created by the Iraqi government, signed off on by the Bush WH, and now you are saying we should just forget about those.
SEN. ISAKSON QUESTIONS: Thanks for service, and gosh people find you trustworthy. Says that unanimously that the world thought that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. [CHS notes: Um...beg to differ, but there were a LOT of questions raised, both here and worldwide on the veracity of that -- by UN weapons inspectors, other nation's intel agencies, and also including within the Bush Administration/US government by the very intel people tasked with finding those WMDs. Lying publicly is crass, wrong and does his constituents a substantial disservice -- and any Georgia readers should make that clear to his office and to local newspapers.] Isakson likes the lovely chart that makes it look like there is an end in sight — and helpfully points out that we can’t put a timetable on when that might happen because we have no idea the way things are going at the moment when that might be. [CHS notes: And I always wanted a pony, too...] Points out that Crocker said back in July that failure to reach benchmarks in Iraq shouldn’t really be considered a lack of progress. I take it from what y’all are saying, that de-Ba’athification and ground up reforms are picking up steam? Crocker says that it’s both ground up and top down.
SEN. CARDIN QUESTIONS: Thanks for your service, your leadership, and to the extraordinary service our troops and foreign service officers are giving. I want to talk about the frustration that we and you have expressed. When the President made a controversial decision to surge our troops, there were certain benchmarks which we expected to achieve — we had express goals. It is now time for us to evaluate this. When we look at violence, I appreciate the charts — but by our own acknowledgement, it is still too high. We have other reports that tell us that violence has accellerated in some areas. We have a large number of displaced people who have moved — from out of Baghdad and out of Iraq altogether. Iraqis believe that they are no safer now than they were before the surge. The report from Gen. Jones tells us that the national Iraqi police force is in terrible shape and may need to be disbanded.
In terms of political reconciliation, by your own acknowledgement, is a failure. The agreed to benchmarks have not been achieved on political fronts. Which leads us to the third standard — Gen. Petraeus, you indicate that hopefully within 7 months, we can get back to 130,000, which is no troop reduction. We’re just back to where we were before the surge, which is not a troop reduction. You shouldn’t try to change the standards — we have failed on those benchmarks.
Where do we go from here? We all agree that we need a stronger diplomatic effort. In this climate where the US is perceived as an occupational force in Iraq, and where there is no incentive for other nations and organizations to get involved — what motivation is there with the US taking on just about the complete burden outside the Iraqis themselves — what incentive is there for other nations or organizations to get involved? Crocker says that there is a growing realization in the region and in the community that what happens in Iraq is important. There have recently been both regional and international initiatives that have gained some momentum. Cardin says he isn’t seeing that, given that we are constantly picking up the ball — and that most of the nations in these initiatives have strongly disagreed with our military policies in Iraq.
SEN. VITTER QUESTIONS: Thanks to both of your for your dedicated and courageous public service, and to everyone serving there. Given our current political environment, I think it is important that we all say that and that we all mean that. I think it is important that we all pass an amendment on the Senate floor and specifically decrying the MoveOn.org ad. [CHS notes: Oh, GAWD. There is no end to the asinine PR machine, is there? As if the sole important question in America today is whether or not the wingnut talking points get air time. This helps any of our miliatry and their families how, exactly? Jeebus...coming from a man who has a hooker history, the public ethical standards lecture rings a bit hollow.] Asks Petraeus if there is a possibility of success. He says probably. Reducing level of violence is key. Taking into very keen awareness of the strain we have placed on the Army and Marines in particular — we cannot continue the surge at these levels, have to help the military at large to reconstitute its forces. Says he is personally aware of the strain that this puts on families, and we need to be aware of this — we have to have the assets to be involved over the long term in Iraq.
Crocker says that the most important lesson is one that the central government has already shown: reaching out to other factions that had previously been shoved to the side. Be sure that provincial development and central goernment are linked.
SEN. CASEY QUESTIONS: Appreciate your service and time here. Start with Petraeus. Looks at an excerpt from the NIE that we judge that the Iraqi security forces have not improved enough to initiate actions independent of the American military. Asks Petraeus what he thinks? No, he thinks that is correct at this point. It is one thing to train them, it is another thing to help an institution be re-established — rebuilding depo systems, logistical structures, etc. The magnitude of reestablishing the institutional underpinnings of the Iraqi military and police services has been an enormous task and a huge undertaking. In 2006, these units had been hijacked by sectarian interests, we are still dealing with the ramifications of that today despite substantial replacements and work on this issue. Refer to the report from Gen. Jones — substantial reliance on American supply chain issues and otherwise.
Then refers to Petraeus chart — the level on readiness that they can independently take on the enemy, it has increased virtually not at all in the last 18 months. When you look at all of this, and your past statements about “enormous progress,” the reality of what is not happening — I think you can understand both the frustration and skepticism on assertions here about that. Petraeus doesn’t see saying “tangible progress” as an extraordinary statement.
SEN. WEBB QUESTIONS: Three observations to make: (1) You understand, both of you, and I hope most people, that one of the reasons we are struggling so hard is that there are large numbers of people who have substantial national security experience who think that this was was an enormous strategic blunder. There were many of us who were pointing out early on that what we are looking at now — that what we see on the ground as problems are exactly what we would see if we invaded. (References Scowcroft, Zinni, etc.) (2) With regard to Anbar, my son fought there — and I know conditions on the ground and I associate with what Sen. Obama was saying that success there is a bit separate and apart from the surge tactic. (3) One of the reasons that I got into politics, the litany that I kept hearing “we’ll stay in Iraq as long a is necessary and not one day more.” We need more specificity and I am certain you can understand that.
Uses a quote of Eisenhower — “appeal to the heroism of its youth.” “Where do we go from here? When comes the end? Is there an end?” Eisenhower said that the first task was to bring the Korean war to an early and honorable end. Need strong diplomatic effort — what you are calling reconciliation — I don’t see that, I see maybe an attempt at conciliation. Without those, we are simply making tactical adjustments. And the changes in tactical deployment for our soldiers and marines — that concerns me. Goes through why that is — problems for families and soldiers alike. What is your view of that 3/4 to one policy? Petraeus says he would like to see our soldiers have more time at home with their families. One of the reasons he has said that our force numbers need to be larger. We are doing the best we can to accomplish the military tasks with what we currently have. Webb says that he was told that the WH feeds the military the strategy and they feed the troops into it — somewhere in there, there needs to be some substantial consideration given to the well-being of the troops and not to the WH political considerations. Petraeus says that the draw-down of the surge was made as recommendations considering this.
Biden thanks them, but says that he doesn’t see any plan or levelling with the American public on the way forward here.
End of this particular hearing.
NOTE: The Peanut will be arriving home from school shortly, so I have to stop doing any liveblogging here. There will be continued hearings — this afternoon in the Armed Services Committee. Am going to try and follow along, but a 4 year old can only watch so much Congressional coverage — and it is really impossible for me to liveblog once she gets home. Sorry gang, but hopefully folks can keep everyone up to date as comments go forward here and there.
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Fitz! ; )
Singles?
Christy!
Cozumel
to the point!
I missed Vitter’s original question.
Was it, “Where’s the hookers?”
Thanks for your patience Christy!
We’re all pretty pissed w/Betrayus and Crocker.
Out of Iraq NOW!
When Dem Senators are speaking or questioning, Betrayus is writing a novel on his notebook. But, when the Republics are talking, he looks them in the eye. What an honorable PUBLIC servant the general is! /s
Has anyone asked him about the missing guns?
Somebody ask him about Blackwater!!
Solai @ 9
Didn’t you get the memo? Democracy is messy.
Naraka @ 5
it was, “do we have the assettes!”
Casey: didn’t you train Iraq Army for a year? Petraeus: Yes. Casey:From the NIE, Iraqis can’t conduct ops without US. Is that true?
Petraeus: one thing to train soldiers, something else to reestablish an institution. National Police hijacked by sectarian interests.
At Christy’s request, please limit the one line comments and stay on topic during live blogging.
The more extraneous material, the more often she has to interrupt her focus to put up a new thread. Thanks for your cooperation.
Delurking to ask … where’s the outrage from all those retired Generals ?
They should have been jamming the airwaves/Toobz all summer long … come on guys, this is a full court press !
Thanks Christy … hugs to you, the Peanut and Mr. Reddhead !
Casey impresses me with his thoughtfulness and careful questions. He also seems very kind. Anyone know him more, live in his territory, have an opinion. I would be interested.
Petraeus is being so rude……his writing and refusing to look up to dem’s is the equivalent of putting his fingers in his ears and saying nah, nah, nah I can’t hear you.
Pwtraeus: Don’t get too hung up on Readiness Assessments. Just because units are not complete, doesn’t mean they can’t conduct ops. Some units have been degraded by battle damage.
Casey is getting to the question of the readiness of the Iraqi forces but also Petraeus’ credibility since he had so much to do with training them.
Petraeus is backpedaling. Tangible progress apparently doesn’t mean real progress. Readiness doesn’t mean real readiness. All this takes time (he’s had years). He describes as qualified optimist and then drops the optimist. Now he is saying that they aren’t as ready because of all the weapons they have lost fighting so hard. Yeah, right.
Fallacy of Sunk Costs 101.
Y’see, it’s much more important that we not “disgrace our choice” than to make current choices on the basis of rationally estimated likely future outcomes. (Not to mention that the very choice of invading was itself “disgraceful.”)
i.e., the succinct definition of irrationality is to make decisions about the future driven by things you can no longer change.
comment by dexxjones @ HuffPo, very nice:
“chenk uger said it best: “i can sit on the beach with a cup, taking water out of the ocean and say i am making progress.” “
Bob Casey juxtaposing Petraeus’ assertions with reality—and not putting me to sleep! (He’s my senator.) He’s not perfect, but that coulda been ole Ricky Santorum in that chair today.
The bottom line is this, there’s no functioning government. So the number of Iraqi battalions is irrelevant
Webb: Some say Iraq is horrible strategic blunder-we’re trying to fix it. Ambassador, the “consequences of failure” are the “consequences of invasion” that were warned of. Webb agreeing with Obama about effectiveness of surge in Anbar.
Why not bring up the Middle east conference on Iraq and ask Petraeus and Crocker whether they think that such a conference would help the “political reconciliation” process that they all say is so critically important.
Get Iraq, Syria, Iran, US Imperialist, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Palestine, under the same roof/tent/sky to talk about what is taking place. Do they or do they not want “political reconciliation”
Are Reps (Republicans, Dems, and Independents) should be pushing hard for this conference that was brought up several years ago by Ziggy Brezinski and recommened by the Iraq Study Group.
Cozumel @ 23
An excellent point that I had not considered. So then who would they take orders from?
What is the status of Senator Webbs legislation to require the Bush administration to have to come back through congress (imagine that) to take any action in regard to Iran?
Watching Petraeus writing reminds me of John Kerry writing during the ‘04 debates-and he’s doing it for the same reason. He’s structuring his debate-which underlines why he is really here.
Shorter Petrayus: “Structures, training, qualifications, challenges, equipment, shortcommings, serious losses, realist, local conditions, logistical readiness, ORA 1 or 2? Again let’s not get too fixated.”
Shorter Webb: “Connundrum. Anbar. Tactical adjustment. And put that effing pen down and look at me when I speak!”
/s
iava statement on the testimony as of yeserday:
http://www.iava.org/component/…..w/id,2526/
Webb refusing to be bullshitted.
Shorter Webb: Answer the effing question
Interesting & good news : Ed Schulz just announced he was joining and contributing $100 to Moveon.org. Reasons Freedom of speech. tired of attacks. He now has on Tom Matsie (sp) head of moveon.org. Excellent, really excellent.
Senator Webb is tired of the horse shit, his eyes look like they could cut through steel. Webb for VP
Webb: If we’re going to be there forever, we need to structure deployments around the well- being of our troops.
Petraeus:that would be nice.
Petraeus feels bad about long deployments but is not going to do one effing thing about it. That is all you really need to know about Petraeus. He is just like Bush. He is going to play soldier in Iraq until someone takes his toys (American soldiers) away from him, period.
“Where do we go from here?” Where, oh where? How about we get the F**K outta there!
So Webb has forced Petraeus to admit that the real reason he’s planning on drawing down troops is due to the rotation policy=lack of troops to replace the ones leaving. Good for him.
So what’s the bottom line here? What’s the question? Is the surge working? Well for that ya have to go back to the REASON for the surge- to improve security temporarily to give the govt. an opportunity to make political progress.
Let’ say for the purpose of argument that security has improved 5%. The govt. is not making political progress- so we might as well have surged in Alaska or somewhere safer.
This is all bullshit-
The important question is where do we go from here- and we can’t keep surgin even if we want to.
Is the surge workin? Who the fuck cares?
Tom Matzzie…
Biden: no clear political plan. NOTHING.Our obligation is to bring this to an early honorable end-and I don’t see anything from you guys. When?
“We feed the strategy” the cannon fodder needed.
adjournment..
Helen @ 32
Webb just basically told Petraeus that his answer was BS and that he will be expecting an improvement very shortly.
Webb may not vote the way I want 100% but he is an up-right, honorable man that makes Macaca look like the little slime ball he is.
rwcole @ 39
Better question: is the WAR/OCCUPATION working? Let’s debate the occupation instead of the surge.
Whether we stay or go isn’t the geeral’s decison to make- not unless we make him emperor. His decision is how to fight as long as he is told to stay there. Even if he thought stayin was a mistake- he couldn’t say so.
He’s above his paygrade
No, he’s writing to show his lack of respect for the questioners. They’re Dems, see, and unworthy of his attention. That’s why he gives the Rethuglicans his rapt attention. See, they’re trustworthy and worthy of his respect.
It’s an old trial lawyer’s trick: I was told you NEVER look at your opponent while they are arguing to the jury. Gives em too much respect. You look elsewhere like the carpeting is more interesting/has more credibility than the other side.
Re Moveon.com’s ad campaign. Maybe, like the Lieberlier fundraiser for Collins etc, we should use this counter-attack against Moveon as an occasion to respond with our pocketbooks to up the Moveon coiffers. Great for publicity too, it would show that rather than running from this, it is earning Moveon tangible financial support.
(September 11, 2007) — WASHINGTON — Rep. Jim Walsh, in a dramatic break with the White House, returned Monday from a trip to Iraq saying it’s time to bring troops home and stop funding the war.
The moderate Republican from Onondaga has struggled for months with conflicting emotions about the war.
“Before I went, I was not prepared to say it’s time to start bringing our troops home,” Walsh said. “I am prepared to say that now. It’s time.”
Walsh’s announcement came as Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Iraq, told House members that the troop “surge” has made progress.
But Walsh said he saw little evidence that much has changed in Iraq since he last visited four years ago. He said he hopes to meet with President Bush to convey his change of heart.
Who are the members of the next committee hearing?
rwcole @ 47
This is true. Like all soldiers, he is a policy implementer, not a policy maker. Caller on Democratic C-SPAN 3 line defending Petraeus.
In order to know if the war is workin- ya have ta know the PURPOSE of the war- and that’s classified. Americans aren’t allowed to know that- so it’s impossible to judge whether the thing is workin.
If the purpose was to lower oil prices- then it ain’t workin!
If the purpose was to lower the number of living moslems in Mess a potamia—then I guess it’s workin.
Petrocelli @ 51
Warner for one
dakine01 @ 45
roger that. The best day in Virginia history was last November, when we voters, as one bumper sticker put it, “Privatized George Allen.”
And I totally agree with your assessment of Webb. He is what this country so desparately needs, a leader in the War on Bullshit.
Wow– Of all the callers on C-span 3, it’s running 4 -1 anti war, even including republican and independent callers. Oops, now there’s a typical Republican apologist
Petrocelli @ 51
here are the members
as a matter of fact I do
With the pathetic command structure I have seen on the hill, we could not win WWIII if it started. They are the living, breathing example of the Peter Principle.
Elliott @ 54
Hiya Ellie … gotta linky ?
rwcole @ 53
a great point, let me add a few other “if”s
if the war is intended to destabalize the middle east, then it’s working’
if the war is intended to control the oil to rasie profi, then it’s workin
if the war is intended to help steal middle class investments, treasure and wealth, then it’s workin
if the war is intended on destroying our ability to defend ourselves, it’s workin
if it’s intended to help terrorism grow, it’s workin
man, I could go on and on
Moron on C-SPAN just said that the General shouldn’t have to justify himself to the civilian leadership.
This is why we’re in trouble.
Elliott @ 57
Aw shucks – take a look at the repugs. This is gonna be a love-fest.
MSNBC is talking about motorcycle helmets
Huh?
Elliott @ 54
http://www.iava.org/component/…..w/id,2526/
Elliott @ 57
All my favorites are on this one. McCain, Hillary, Joe-Lie, Susan Collins, and so on. It’ll be glorious.
Ron
Americans have a pathetic understanding of the principles underpinning their country–Someone tried ta teach em somethin when they were 16 but all they could think about was what was in the pants of the person sittin next to em.
Elliott @ 57
Why is Lieberman listed under “Democrat”?
Twain @ 58
We are not structured to win. We are structured to prolong, IMO.
The Senate Armed Services Committee
Majority
Carl Levin, Chairman, Michigan
Robert Byrd, West Virginia
Edward Kennedy, Massachusetts
Joe Lieberman, Connecticut
Jack Reed, Rhode Island
Daniel Akaka, Hawaii
Bill Nelson, Florida
Ben Nelson, Nebraska
Evan Bayh, Indiana
Hillary Rodham Clinton, New York
Mark Pryor, Arkansas
James Webb, Virginia
Claire McCaskill, Missouri
Minority
John McCain, Ranking Member, Arizona
John Warner, Virginia
Jim Inhofe, Oklahoma
Jeff Sessions, Alabama
Susan Collins, Maine
Saxby Chambliss, Georgia
Lindsey Graham, South Carolina
Elizabeth Dole, North Carolina
John Cornyn, Texas
John Thune, South Dakota
Mel Martinez, Florida
Bob Corker, Tennessee
It doesn’t look good.
rwcole @ 65
Actually, that someone taught them/presented a lot less than you think.
The war and the testimony of Betrayus and Crock-o-shit are killing the thuglicans. Kos reports huge shift in poll numbers towards Dems in KY, and we are seeing other similar shifts in other states. The pressure is building on the remaining thugs to get the hell out of Dodge. November may be the month the dam breaks; I don’t see it holding much longer. This might be Reid and Pelosi’s long game.
You never know.
oops, sorry about that link, I didn’t check.
I do look forward to Levin and Kennedy, expect speech from Clinton
rwcole @ 66
Yes, and I was one of them…finding out I could impress her by helping with her Civics homework saved me from a lifetime of ignorance.
zennurse @ 64
thanks for the link!
Good question.
theWalrus @ 67
he still caucuses with the democrats…
I’m going to go out on a limb here and predict that this final hearing will be a repeat of the previous two – a waste of time.
petwrecker @ 76
always wearing his Turn Coat
This morning I noticed that NPR had NY Times War Cheerleader Iraq Correspondent Michael Gordon providing commentary.
petwrecker @ 76
I thought he was a Republican *sshole type (RAT for short)
Christy is not available to do the new hearing. We need volunteers to live blog please.
Just give us some phrases or a sense of the questions or answers, that would help a lot, thanks.
Petrocelli @ 51
Should be interesting with Webb getting another crack, and, HRC asking some q’s!!!
Elliott @ 78
the democrats HAVE to throw him out of the party
check out this from think progres, I had to cut and paste the whole thing
Would like to hear one rep ask Crocker and Petraeus if they think the Middle East Peace Conference recommended by the Iraqi Study Group would help with “political reconciliation”?
Why are they letting the Bush administration stall on this issue?
Unless they all want to pre-emptively attack Iran.
dakine01 @ 45
Webb has a really clear idea of what “support the troops” REALLY means.
Lieberman/Collins on board for this 2nd hearing.
Don’t know about y’all, but I can hardly wait for their ?s ;-/
Hope the rest are up to the task, like these 2 never are…
“appeal to the heroism of its youth.” Does that include the youth of the Bush family? Probably not…
Cozumel @ 62
Its importance, how else are you going to protect all the lib bloggers’ heads spinning off with this mess. :-)
the stated purpose of the surge to give politicians breathing space not achieved -Levin
theWalrus @ 77
If you think it’s such a waste of time, why do you bother watching or listening. I don’t think it’s a waste of time and I thoroughly enjoyed watching Russ Feingold verbally beat Petraeus and Crocker up. I thought the Dems made some very good points!
Levin blaming Iraqi parliament for not following through on THEIR promises.
theWalrus @ 77
September 2008: General Petraeus’ and Ambassadors Crocker’s replacements head over to the the DC studios of Fox News for an exclusive interview with Brit Hume.
Elliott @ 78
Joey is the single most infuriating person in public-life, outside the varied, malevolent, Bush & Co. personnel!
Dems don’t really have to do much as the result of these “hearings”. Most of em were already on the “WITHDRAW” team last time they voted on this issue. They’ll vote again in favor of withdrawal and that will be that.
Life is more interesting on the other side of the aisle. Goopers were hoping that these dickheads would provide political cover- to cover their pro Bush votes- so far no fuckin luck…
However they vote now they will have to live with through the upcoming election. They should be sweatin big ol bullets right about now- cause this fuckin war will be worse not better on election day- and voters will remember who did nothin but suck Clusterfuck’
s dick an eat his dirty shorts.
“The Vietnam experience left the military leadership feeling that they should advise against involvement in counterinsurgencies unless specific, perhaps unlikely, circumstances obtain — i.e. domestic public support, the promise of a quick campaign, and freedom to employ whatever force is necessary to achieve rapid victory. In light of such criteria, committing U.S. units to counterinsurgencies appears to be a very problematic proposition, difficult to conclude before domestic support erodes and costly enough to threaten the well-being of all America’s military forces (and hence the country’s national security), not just those involved in the actual counterinsurgency,” – David Howell Petraeus, The American Military and the Lessons of Vietnam: A study of military influence and the use of force in the post-Vietnam era. PhD Dissertation, Princeton University, 1987. Page 305.
The document can be found here:
http://www.brianbeutler.com/po…..litary.pdf
Levin up now. Petraeus listening, not writing. Levin: Breathing space not achieved. Iraqi political benchmarks not met. You said Iraqi leaders were stepping forward 3 years ago. To tell Iraqis they’re doing fine is wrong. Iraqis dawdle, while Americans die .
rwcole @ 50
I really do feel Walsh is feeling the hot breath of an opponent in the next election…
three years ago Petraeus said the Iraqi politicians were stepping forward, if so they are stalled now -Levin
Pet napporpriately compares the Iraq situation with our civil rights movement -Levin
there’ve been no consequences to the Iraqi political leaders to do what they’re supposed to do. -Levin
Levin reading a long litany of progress reports and appeals for patience.
PLEASE keep the one liners and the off topics to a minimum!
Thank you for your compliance…And shame on you for not listening if you choose to ignore this request.
Oooh, expect some tough talk by Bayh…. NOT. Bayh’s best Democratic credential is that at least he’s not as bad as Lieberman.
TexBetsy @ 46
Even better questions:
What does any of this have to do with Osama bin Laden and Sept 11, 2001?
If 5 years and $500Billion were invested in finding binForgotten and every one of his friends, do you think we’d have him now?
We’ve spent years now debating Sunni/Shia/Kurd/etc issues, when NONE OF THIS has anything to do with the attacks on 9/11. Mission accomplished I guess as far as the death-profiteers are concerned since you’re told to “get over it…we’re here now,” when they same people that invaded Iraq are still calling the shots since our Dem leaders think it’s more important to be “civil” because the media might be mean to them.
Ish @ 79
More of that fair and balanced coverage by NPR. Like when they have the fair and balanced Ted Koppel (who did his very best to get rid of Carter via his new program). During the last few years Ted put a documentary together called “Iran the most dangerous nation ” (so fair and balanced)
During the documentary Ted actually says that Iran can not be negotiated with.
Elliott @ 57
Thanks, you’re the fastest gun in the west !!! *g*
STAY THE COURSE!
“More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way.”—GW Bush, on his future vindication by history, Martinsburg, W. Va., July 4, 2007
I hope Webb and Feingold get to cut through the BS again.
The bar is pretty high for Betty Crocker and General Pet Cemetary. They’ve got to change public opinion enough to make next year’s election safe for goopers.. so far no dice.
Levin: A litany of delusion – that Bush has repeated over and over…progress. Cites the many times Bush has touted progress and patience.
He’s citing the Iraq Study Group recommendations…from before the surge.
Presenting the political leaders with a timetable rather than a timetable for the troops is the only thing that will work.
Reducing the troop level back to pre-surge levels is an illusion of change.
We must make the Iraqi leaders understand that the future of their country is in their own hands.
zennurse @ 72
And Webb gets a second shot?
RonD @ 95
Levin is a mouthpiece for the Bushies on this – and of course the I-lobby.
I wish they would cut this pro forma praise of a couple of Administration hacks and flunkies.
Levin brings up the poll results showing that Iraqis think the surge has made them less secure. He brings up militias control of large parts of Baghdad.
Political reconciliation: Not achieved
Sectarian violence: won’t end until there is a settlement, the Iraqi pols have not done this.
Says Crocker said yesterday that Iraqi leaders have the will, criticizes him for inappropriately comparing Iraq’s situation to our country’s civil rights movement.
No consequences for Iraqis not making progress.
Lists multiple times over the years that Bush has cited progress in Iraq.
Success depends on end to open-ended commitment to Iraq, he cites the ISG report.
Success depends on transition in missions, i.e. out of combat.
Timetable for change of roles, only hope
I agree with the critique, less supportive of Levin’s prescription.
McCain up now.
Are mini live blogging snippets from the hearing desired or not, I’m confused
Hugh @ 69
Au contraire Hugh … I very much like that Reps and LIEberman will be on TV for 4 hours, supporting Bush’s war !
That’s going to make ‘08 even more of a landslide.
Kathleen @ 103
Koppel, Couric, Gordon= I-lobby
Elliott @ 114
Desired. Christy’s on some kind of break.
(See egregious @ 81.)
McCain: Setting a date for surrender is the wrong srategy. We lost years to trying to implement Rumsfeld’s strategy. We can’t have the last four years back-we must see that our commanders have all the time and resources they need. Petraeus is getting it right-should have been doing it his way from the beginning.
Will be interesting to see how the prez candidates play this- will they go for the limelight or try to blend into the background? Will they take clear positions or waffle cone?
McCain: “We cannot choose to lose.”
So what does it mean to “win”? A downtown Baghdad Walmart?
There goes McCain, with his “sorrowful” uber-solemn tone. Doesn’t work any more. He just sounds tired.
Pretty interesting McCain strategy- as if an additional 30,000 troops was all that was needed all along..Whadda buncha shit!!
Shorter McCain: Stay the course, of coure, of course.
McCain; withdrawal is surrender is failure is dangerously wrong. If we surrender in Iraq, we’ll be back, and it will cost even more lives and treasure.
theWalrus @ 120
Shorter Truth: “We cannot spin to win.”
Shorter McCain: everything is beautiful in Iraq. All improvement, we cannot move on. No surrender, or we’ll be back at an even greater cost.
McCain’s fucked in my opinion….Dead man walkin.
McC-
anyone who has traveled to Anbar who has seen the improvements, bearing tangible fruit.
a legislated withdrawal date will be surrender.
failed state
McCain is still trying to refight Viet Nam.
Zennurse, re Casey – grew up in Scranton with Casey Sr – he was truly a great man & helped out family numerous times. Don’t know Jr as well, but comes from great family.
McCain: “Iraq has become the global front on the war on terror”
Created by the Neocons. Brilliant.
Iraq wouldn’t be a terrorist sanctuary has we not invaded it to rape their natural resources.
Some people think the war on terror is somewhere other than Iraq-this is wrong. Iraq is the central front in the Global War on Terror.
All of us want our troops home-we should want them home with honor.
McCain- wants to be prez at 70 years old..Good luck old man- time fer you to go pick out a rocking chair and suck up some Ginko.
Biodun @ 117
Support is desired and appreciated just not one liners. Try to get a few sentences into the comment before submitting it is all we are asking. That and to stay on topic.
Thank You.
we cannot allow an Iranian dominated middle east
-McC
theWalrus @ 131
Because bin Laden said so, so it must be true.
McCain:
With your testimony the debate begins. It will effect the security of all Americans from now on.
I too, have been made sick at heart for the four hears of mismanaged war…too few troops, etc., based on hope.
The question today is whether we end this now, and accept the terrible consequences…I want us to win this war.
Congress’s failure to support Petraeus is a shame, because we are finally getting it right.
We must, as Pet intends, keep the strategy in place. It is the only strategy that has produced real progress in Iraq. You can see the progress in Iraq. Many challenges remaining, the road long and tough. Maliki government not functioning as it must.
We will fail for certain if we surrender. We can’t just turn the page in Iraq, and come home to better things.
There will be many more battles that will be worse if we leave a failed state. Extremests, jihadists will believe they have toppled the greatest nation on earth.
Iraq has become the central front on the GWOT, and failure will turn Iraq into a place where plans on the US will be planned. The Iranian president has said soon we will have a huge power vacuum, and we will fill the void.
Honor, victory…for all who have paid the sacrifice. Pet needs time to finish the mission.
We will move to the Senate and Congress must not choose to lose in Iraq, and I will do everything in my power to not let that happen.
Ending the occupation is a very different frame than “surrendering” and of course doesn’t work for these neocons.
Hello Senator McCain there is no “honor” in a war based on a “pack of lies”
McCain: can’t recover the lost 4 years, but can’t lose Iraq, failure to support Petraeus would be shameful, must keep Petraeus strategy in place, things are looking peachy in Iraq and you can buy cheap rugs there too.
Violence is down but high. No one can be sure of success. A timetable fail for certain (I believe this is called living in a state of denial). If we leave Iraq we will have to return to Iraq. A precipitate departure (why are all departures precipitate?) will be a disaster. The real war on terror is Iraq. Base for jihadists, Iran will benefit (these two ideas are in direct contradiction to each other) Departure with honor (oh boy) Time and support for Petraeus. Congress must not choose to lose in Iraq (Oy!)
Elliott @ 136
“cannot allow”?
LOL! Unless we vitrify Iran with nukes, I don’t see how we can stop that.
Petreaus now repeating his testimony, but will make it short.
I wrote this myself, and did not clear it with anyone.
Looks like “Choose to lose” has become the latest talking point.
Pet’s statement
Levin- you can choose to give a recap since you’ve given it twice before.
Pet give his own testimony not somebody’s else, he wrote it his own self, we’ve heard this before.
he said “ethno-sectarian violence” everybody take a shot.
someone needs to laugh at mccain’s statement
“we need to give him all the support and all the time he needs”
that’s a ridiculous statement that needs to be ridiculed
everybody needs oversight and nobody can get all the time the want.
that’s why there is a congress, that’s why the leadership comes from civilians not the military
so the democrats need to laugh at mccain’s statement…outright laugh
McCain: “General, where can I find any rugs under $5 in Baghdad? Money’s getting a little tight for me nowadaze.”
Petraeus: My statement has not been cleared with the WH, Pentagon, or anybody else. Surge is working on military side. Progress against both AQI and SHia militias. Iraqis slowly stepping up, but riven with sectarian divides. We’ll withdraw 1/4 of our brigades by next summer, without damaging security.
Summary of Petraeus’ opening statement: The surge is working and I am a great general.
LS @ 143
No one believes you, General.
theWalrus @ 131
it’s a ridiculous position, terrorism is wherever the terrorists want to terrorize, it cannot be localized, that can’t happen
McCain’s a military man- who never won a fuckin war. He oughta be used ta losin by now.
Wasn’t so bad was it John?
I was hoping Levin would have just entered their opening statements into the record in lieu of the reading them, but since none of the Dems seem interested in asking real, probing questions, I guess it doesn’t matter. Expect Crocker to drone on for atleast 20 minutes…..
RonD @ 133
With less than 10% Al Qaeda, how does he figure? Feingold basically proved quite logically that this is not so. Many more Al Qaeda in Pakistan and the Phillipines; more terrorists in North Africa. Why is Iraq such a priority, when all we’re doing is spinning our wheels?
Someone does need to point out that Petraeus’s scary map (Syria: ‘here there be spiders’; Iran: ‘here there be dragons’) doesn’t label Saudi Arabia, which is ‘here there be money and foreign fighters’.
A suggestion for the title of a science-fiction movie: The Invasion of the Ethno-Sectarians. Sounds scary doesn’t it?
At the risk of tossing a fatal one-liner I just want to recommend an image that best describes the depth of this Congressional grilling: Softball.
“A competition for resources” Guess who is going to win that competition….multinationals.
Why in the hell are the Iraqi people (those that are alive and not refugees) waiting in line for gasoline?
The number one question on EVERYBODY’S mind?
Is the camera on ME NOW?
Nemo @ 144
I like “war on bullshit” in reply.
do-si-do @ 161
GWOBS
Global War On BullShit
We’re in a deep ESV situation. Is there a DMV in sight?
PEOPLE ARE DYING because of these SOBs
Nemo @ 144
Apply directly to the forehead
rwcole @ 119
John Edwards “no timeline, no funding, no excuses”
McCain..surrender in Iraq will bring about terrorist haven.
First, ending an occupation is not surrender.
Second, how in the world would Iraq become a terrorist haven? Nobody that lives there wants al Queda there, and will deal with them in short order.
Last, if we withdraw, there will be major Sunni-Shiite fighting. But if we stay, we are seeing the same fighting, taking longer, and costing American lives.
I’d prefer the former.
Cozumel @ 163
Indeed. Along with Ethno-Sectarian!
rwcole @ 160
you are funny! Byrd and Kennedy could care less
CHS:
Saying “Are you concerned as you talk with Iran that Iran is going to be behind a Hezbollah-like insurgency in Iraq?” is not “parroting a GOP talking point.” It’s also a Democratic talking point.
Choose to lose
or
Die for lies
GenPet showing various charts and graphs, all of which make the same point-we’re winning. We’re capturing supply caches. IED attacks down by 1/3. Monthly attacks in Anbar declined. Steady declines in violence all over Iraq.
Our ops have degraded AQI, but they are not defeated. These gains are the result of Spec Ops and intel. We are also fucking up the Shai militias, which are being supported by Iran. Increasing trend of tribes coming over to the US side.
Petraeus: We have found 4400 caches of weapons. (Heck, some of them probably contained some of the guns I lost)
Al Qaeda is on the run but still lethal (sounds like they may not be on the run then)
Hugh @ 172
P is taking his time, this time, with his repeat presentation. He’s confident, assured, relaxed. It’s now 2:45, est.
Softball questioning will begin in about an hour.
Off on the business of the Queen. See everyone later.
Hugh @ 172
why the HELL doesn’t a democrat stop him in his TRACKS when he brings up al qaeda?
AL QAEDA IS NOT THE PROBLEM IN IRAQ
Nemo @ 167
& Rush To Failure!
I don’t think this is really OT,sorry if it is, I received it from Brasschecktv this morning. It’s a short piece about Naomi Klein’s The Shock Doctrine and her speech to a sociologists conference that Amy Goodman ran on Democracy Now. She puts this war in perspective with a much larger agenda that includes the disastrous response to Katrina. Really worth watching.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/152.html
Somebody is blowing the whistle on McConnell and throwing him under the bus.
http://rawstory.com//news/2007….._0911.html
“A government official who was briefed on the arrests cast doubt on McConnell’s assessment. The official, who requested anonymity to discuss classified information, told the New York Times that information leading to the arrests was collected last year, before the law was updated……
…..German officials have backed the US official’s account and said US intercepts of e-mail messages and telephone calls between Germany and Pakistan and Turkey last year tipped them off to the plot, the Times reported.”
Hugh @ 172
We’ve got the ball and we’re moving it downfield (Petraeus has called an audible and transformed the “Hail Mary” of the “surge” into four-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust). Learn to use football metaphors, sissy.
Siun has a new thread for those who want to yak off-topic…
and mccain’s “we should not choose to loose” bit?
the democrats NEED to come back with;
“the president chose to loose when he attacked Iraq, a country he knew posed no threat to our country, who he was informed had no wmds, who he was informed had no link to al qaeda.
the president chose to loose and we have, now we must choose to rebuild our country from the damgage that man has done”
bam
New thread by Siun.
brendan @ 169
Of course it is a Democratic talking point!
A*P*C owns most of the Democrats
Siun has a new thread upstairs, please feel free to follow along with the live blogging here, thanks.
Pretending You’ll End The War
Biodun @ 181
I’m not sure Siun would be thrilled to have a lot of off-topic comments in her very serious thread, actually. Maybe hold off a little?
You know when Petraeus talks about Iranian controlled militias I wish he would be specific because the militia with the closest ties to Iran is the SIIC’s Badr Brigade our best buds and closest allies among the Shia and populate a lot of the army units Petraeus thinks so much of. While Sadr may be receiving some support from Iran, he is an Iraqi nationalist, much more so than the SIIC guys.
2 Points on McCain BS:
1) Surrender is not always the wrong move. How the heck did he end up in the Hanoi Hilton otherwise? I wouldn’t say he was a coward for ending up there.
2) Withdraw is not surrender. Surrender means our guys end up as POW’s where? Abu Graib? Withdraw is an appropriate strategy when your forces are in the wrong place. It allows redeployment to more useful purposes. They are not currently deployed to a useful purpose.
GenPet better not do the writing thing while Demo’s are questioning this round? Or, I’ll fly down to dc and barge-in, wearing code-pink, and complete this farceathon! Webb call him on it! This is neither a court of law, nor, an election. This is….not a marketing…sales, (oh fuck it!)
/s
Good point on McCain’s surrender.
He shoulda taken out his peashooter an told them North Vietnamese that THEY needed ta surrender.
egregious @ 186
I meant off-topic of the hearing. Siun’s topic is still Iraq…but not about the hearing.
Levin the one finally bringing up the civilians leaving their neighborhoods………….
Cocker up, Levin questioning.
ardens @ 188
Your #2 suggestion sounds a bit like; ‘discretion is the better part of valor,’ implying such things as nuance or
even honesty. Them things are not ‘in’
right now. Sorry.
Al Queda is in it’s last throes.
Clusterfuck’s been fightin Al Queda fer- what- five years now? Did he win?
Rut Roh – Crocker “cannot recall”
David W. Bartoo @194
Oops, I forgot. Silly me. Nevermind!
Amazing to think that Al Queda did not exist in Iraq before the invasion and now it is the central front of Al Queda.
What a fuck up or was it?
do-si-do @ 192
Things are getting better “improving” in Iraq as 70,ooo Iraqi people leave every month. Just does not add up in most peoples books.
Kathleen @ 199
I’m sure the Iraqis are pleased that we brought Al Queda to them so that we could “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here.”
Goopers and the military industrial complex NEED the war on terror or they’re dead meat- flies circling- rotting on the hoof.
GW Clusterfuck decided to make Iraq the central front of the war on terror. No one knows why.
Kennedy cutting through the BS. the military surge was to help create an enviroment where “political reconciliation” can take place
Kathleen @ 199
rwcole @ 203
he’s scared shitless of China?
Kathleen @ 200
(Congrats on double BINGO!)
Maybe those 70,000 just aren’t members of the ‘right’ crowd (no crowding, you know)!
Doubt little george loses much sleep over
folks like that.
Petraeus just said that he didn’t know whether his recommendations to continue the surge would make America safer. He said he hadn’t thought about that much – focused on Iraq. Does that strike anyone else as remarkable?
Senator Byrd talking, (genpet) at it with the pen. No. fucking. respect. “Was there any connection between Iraq and 9-11?” “NO”! Your and the president’s success is meaningless! Bang! Byrd doesn’t look up to ask his questions?!?! Fucking, eh!
Sen. Byrd is up. The old gent is older than dirt but gets right on it. Wants Petraeus to say whether there’s a connection between 9/11 and Iraq. The General says he’s not aware of any.
Damn, the old boy is sharp as a tack! He just made a comparison to arming Sunnis and the Taliban. It will be a shame when we finally lose hhim from the Senate ranks.
Byrd: “You can’t have political reconciliation without security, but you can’t have security until there’s reconciliation. This is like a dog chasing its tail. A responsible breeder would tell you this is not the puppy to take.”
Inhofe is doing a good job of regurgitating all the rightwing talking points used to justify this illegal war.
Inhofe just named half-a-dozen places that were AQI training centers under Sadam-what a fucking liar!!
Gen. Petraeus looks right @ the Repub Senators when they question him, as if to cue in their mutual talking points. He only uses the “I’m busy taking notes for my response” routine for the Dem Senators.
Can you feel our dead & maimed soldiers & the dead & maimed Iraqi citizens clustering around you right now, Gen Petraeus, watching & listening to you. I can…
Aaaarggghhh! Lieberman up.
theWalrus @ 211
So is Lieberman.
bronco214 @ 209
Sen. Byrd is gonna go out with his boots on……….
demit @ 210
and seems I’ve heard he *does* love his puppy dogs. No way most of the people in this country are gonna make it to his age functioning nearly as well as he does.
theWalrus @ 211
Muted…….gotta mind the blood pressure. ;-)
Answering a direct question from Sen. Byrd, Gen. Petraeus says HE knows of no direct connection between Saddam and 911. MSM will have to downplay this if they wish to keep little george’s good will. Selective forgetting works wonders. Petraeus will win no brownie points from the Cheney, either.
Joe Lieberman is THE worst of the worst.
Inhofe is my least favorite Senator. I think he’s a total idiot, a liar, and an asshole. Senators Kennedy & Byrd should go to Iraq and see what we’ve seen and they’d change their minds about this war indeed! Then talking about Michael O’Hanlon and Ken Pollack and their change of heart. Said they were very critical, now they come back with a glowing report.
Boy, now we follow that bit up with Lieberman. What a treat! (Yes, I’m being facetious.)
Went out in the kitchen and washed a few dishes while Droopy Dor LIEberman was on. Can’t afford a new TV right now.
Lie berman pushing for Iran. Suit up Lieberman we are tired of your warmongering ways…put the uniform on and put your old lying ass on the line (at the very least send your own kids into your wars)
bronco214 @ 209
I had the privilige of watching Byrd on the floor four or so years ago. He slammed the patriot act down on the desk next to him in the Senate and pointed to the White House and said that he had never witnessed in his many years in the Senate a group more committed to tearing up the constitution than the Bush administration.
That guy has a mind like a steel trap and a memory like an elephant
Why does Susan Collins always sound like a kindergarten teacher talking to children? Is it a speech impediment or something, or what? It makes me have a hard time thinking of her as really brainy. For instance, I can’t imagine her being a prosecutor, or even a defense attorney, and winning any cases with her speech patterns. So how does she win elections?
Ann in AZ @ 223
Collins knows she is dust in Maine
So, Kathleen, do you think this means we’re about the only ones left on this thread? They’re going to recess now, so I guess I’ll watch TV for a while.
P.S. Collins should have been dust long ago, IMO.
Crocker has been rocked (shaky voice and hesitancy) since he lied into the microphone about not recalling the NYT quote in which he said that Maliki’s demise might be a good thing.
demit @ 22
I think this hearing brought out the best in many senators who otherwise are not considered great.
bellesouth @ 37
It seems clear to me that the repetition of that question was mostly rhetorical and meant for the general public, rather than either Petraeus or Crocker.
Asking the public to FINALLY make the decision to leave should bring the public opinion polls closer to unanimity that it is time to at least retreat from the centers of violence and just help the political process where it’s underway. Just that would be a big step in the right direction!
liavc @ 207
Not that it’s true, just that he would say it out loud. Slips like that could get him in trouble with the don.
If AQ is our biggest enemy and they’re mostly in Afghan-Pak border area and they’re getting stronger every day we’re in Iraq, then the only sane thing is to leave Iraq and go after AQ where they are most concentrated.
Of course, if they were serious about fighting AQ they’d go after the AQ types in Iraq rather than messing about with nation building.