As we’ve discussed before – and as Chris Bowers is dissecting at Open Left with important posts here and here and Ian Welsh at Agonist is posting here and here- the great lie of the current presidential campaign is that all the Democratic candidates want to “end the war.”
What they are not telling us is that most of them plan to keep large numbers of American troops in Iraq even after they “end the war.” WTF you say?
Clinton, Obama and Edwards’ plans to “end the war” or to “bring our troops home” all refer to “combat troops” but their plans include leaving some number of troops in Iraq for training Iraqi forces or anti-terrorism or force protection (if you remove your force, who are you protecting?) and similar activities. Only Bill Richardson has pledged to remove all troops except for a standard Marine contingent to protect the Embassy. And all the rest have refused to specify the number of troops they envision retaining in Iraq. Chris and I have asked each campaign for these figures numerous times – I began asking this question back during the discussion of the first supplemental. No one is answering.
Since they won’t answer, Chris is now estimating they will keep 40-60,000 troops in Iraq. (and if this is not true, all they need to do is tell us the correct figure for their particular proposal.)
Since we have no pledge from these “frontrunners” to withdraw “support troops” it seems to make sense to have an upper estimate of how many troops might be left. (The idea that leaving a large contingent of “support forces” without “combat forces” when the combined force is losing the occupation now requires a logical leap I can’t even begin to understand.)
How many combat troops are in Iraq and how many support troops are in Iraq? The best measure is to look at reports of the ratio of combat to support which the Pentagon implements.
Reporting from the initial period of the “surge” gives us some idea of that ratio. Bush’s original “surge” plan involved sending 21,500 combat troops to Iraq. What did not get mentioned when that figure was announced was that 21,500 combat troops require 15,000 – 28,000 support troops:
According to the Pentagon’s current ratio of combat-to-support personnel in Iraq, the surge would require up to 28,000 additional troops to provide security, fuel, food, transportation, and other necessities to support the additional combat troops — bringing the total troop increase to 48,000 troops, the CBO concluded. If a smaller proportion were used, as the Pentagon has suggested, the surge would require about 15,000 support personnel, increasing the surge to about 35,000 troops, it said.
In NYT reporting on the Iraq Study Group report, we learn:
Frontline combat troops in the 15 brigades carrying out the American fight in Iraq — which the Iraq Study Group says could be largely withdrawn in just over a year — represent about 23 percent of the 140,000 military personnel committed to the overall war effort there.
On any given day, according to military officers in Baghdad, only about 11 percent of the Army and Marine Corps personnel in Iraq are carrying out purely offensive operations. Even counting others, whose main job is defensive or who perform security missions to stabilize the country for economic reconstruction and political development, only half of the American force might be considered combat troops.
The article goes on to provide more detail:
According to Pentagon statistics, about 23 percent of the troops currently assigned to the Iraq mission conduct primarily combat jobs. The 15 combat brigades — each with an official roster of about 3,500 and totaling about 52,500 soldiers and marines in Iraq — make up well over a third of the overall force. But each brigade includes units that provide support, logistics and security for those troops conducting direct combat operations.
Electricians and mechanics make up 20 percent of the overall American mission, with “functional support/administrative” personnel and “service and supply handlers” each contributing another 11 percent, according to Pentagon personnel statistics.
Other major categories include communications and intelligence troops — 8 percent — and health service providers, including such critical missions as medical evacuation teams, at 4 percent of the force. Craftsmen account for just under 4 percent. Those statistics do not includes their officers.
These statistics were drawn from an unclassified Pentagon report dated Sept. 30, 2006, which listed American deployments in the Middle East to carry out and support what the Pentagon classifies as “The Global War on Terror.” Three senior officers who served yearlong deployments in Iraq at the headquarters level reviewed the Pentagon statistics on regional deployments and said they provide an accurate if somewhat rough picture of how American troops are assigned military tasks in Iraq today.
But that is just one set of statistics describing troop deployments. Those statistics listing official military occupations in the region do not tell the full story of how the force deployed on the ground carries out the mission each day, according to officers in Baghdad.
Lt. Col. Michelle L. Martin-Hing, spokeswoman for the Multinational Corps-Iraq, offered different statistics that show that during day-to-day operations, about 40 percent of the troops conduct combat missions while about 60 percent carry out support missions.
In an MIT paper discussing the number of troops needed to pacify Iraq, Peter Strass OF MIT’s Security Studies Program writes:
When “tooth-to-tail” considerations are included—the number of combat troops to logistical support troops—the number of U.S. combat troops in country drops to about 60,000,
And a year ago, Fred Kaplan wrote in the Atlantic:
For each American soldier capable of going out on patrol or fighting insurgents, there are five support troops supplying his needs, according to an Army spokesman. In other words, of the roughly 130,000 American troops in Iraq today, only about 25,000 are combat troops. Categories overlap, of course; a truck driver in a convoy can find himself in a firefight or be hit by a roadside bomb. Still, when the generals plan how many troops they need, this is the combat-to-support—or “tooth-to-tail”—ratio that shapes their calculations.
Note that none of the figures include the estimated 125,000 -200,000 mercenaries used as support and security.
Given these ratios – which put “combat forces” at only 23% to 50% of the total number of troops – precisely how many of these forces do the “frontrunners” plan on leaving in Iraq – and how is leaving 40,000, 60,000, 80,000 “support” troops in Iraq Ending the War? That seems like a question each and every presidential candidate should be required to answer.
US “surge” soldiers from 1-30 Infantry Battalion rest in a temporarily occupied Iraqi home during a foot patrol along the Tigris river south of Baghdad, 03 September 2007. (AFP/David Furst)
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Siun!
EPU’d. Now to read.
tres
It’s not our country. Period.
I have to challange the common wisdom that the Dems are valiantly fighting to bring our troops home, and would be successfull if it weren’t for those evil Repubs.
On most progressive Dem blogs, I read a lot of gnashing of teeth about the “spineless Dems” in congress (and running for Pres) who won’t stand-up to Bush and just deny funding for the war. Seems simple: turn off the money tap and the troops come home. Why can’t/won’t our Dem leadership just do this?
Well here’s my take. Maybe someone else has made this point already, but I haven’t seen it in so many words. The Dems need the war.
Just like the Repubs “need” the fear of the Bin Laden boogeyman to keep their base of support, so do the Dems need the war as their boogeyman to win the next election. Let’s say that we could wave a magic wand and have the troops home tomorrow. That would certainly make 65% of the U.S. public happy. But given that the war is what motivated the public to vote so many Dems into office last election, what would that leave as the motivator to continue building the Dem majority next election? The economy? Healthcare? Global warming? As important as those issues are, I don’t think they hold a candle to the war as a change motivator to get more Dems in congress and as president.
So, am I suggesting that the Dem leadership is so mercenary and self-serving as to only give lip-service to wanting to end the war, while really working to keep it going until the 2008 elections? Am I suggesting that they would hesitate to do the right thing, and continue to put our troops in harm’s way, just for political gain?
Yes. Call me cynical or a conspiracy monger, but I believe if you think about it, it is the most logical and rational explanation for the Dems’ kabuki dance around the spending bills. Ultimately they will pass every spending bill for the war from now until 2009, with no strings attached. That’s driven by pure political calculus. I’m sure some rationalize it by saying it’s more important in the long run to have a Dem president and majority in the congress, and that once 2009 rolls around, the troops will eventually return home. Ending the war before that threatens this ultimate goal.
Hi Siun, thank you for your insight and research!
Gee Siun, your timing is impeccable! At least for my ramblings. *g*
Bill Writing for Dummies
Democratsor
Stand up, you spineless, craven worms!
My take on how to write some decent Defense Authorization legislation that would force Junya’s hand on the Iraq War:
Junya, sign right here_________________
If you veto this bill, there ain’t gonna be another and you, turkey, will have shutdown our military!
Ya can’t train the Iraqis to occupy themselves now- come on!! How can ya have an occupying army with no army?
Who’s gonna keep the democracy goin? Who’s gonna make sure that Iraq leaves OPEC?
Hitting the nail directly on the head.
If dems try to restrict how Clusterfuck can spend money- he’ll just do a signing statment declaring that part unconstitutional an do what he wants.
EPU’ed
You know when Petraeus talks about Iranian controlled militias I wish he would be specific because the militia with the closest ties to Iran is the SIIC’s Badr Brigade our best buds and closest allies among the Shia. They populate a lot of the army units Petraeus thinks so much of. While Sadr may be receiving some support from Iran, he is an Iraqi nationalist, much more so than the SIIC guys
Hi Siun, thanks for a great post.
It’s impossible to “win”.
The choices are “win” “lose” “withdraw”
I choose withdraw.
What’s so hard about that? We’ve already lost our honor on the world stage. I don’t know who we think we are fooling except ourselves with all the bs in neocon land.
“I like war, it makes me feel like these are important times and gives me something to do.” pathetic losers.
Hi Siun.
Typically superb-and those words don’t even go togeteher.
BTW, thanx for the info last night. Very interesting, and disturbing.
Why do we need to keep ANY troops on foreign soil… ever?
No other nation keeps their troops on our soil… ever.
Has anyone asked about the military contractors in the last two days? Whose control are they under? I have a nephew who is in Baghdad doing computer programming work and earning $17,000 a month. Privatizing our military certainly isn’t a bargain and a major part of our problem in Iraq. I heard a representative a couple of months ago when asked about the military contractors say that she had no idea how many, where, how long they’d be there, that the reps weren’t allowed that information.
Unless we elect Kucinich or Richardson, we will be there 4ever.
So, since that is unlikely, we will be there forever…Iraq..a Homelandian colony…51st state.
Siun I was completely against the invasion based on what I was hearing from a long list of experts. Although it makes sense that they are unable to pull out quickly and that some troops would have to be left behind to deal with the tragedy that we have created.
But the question that I have is why our Reps have not been pushing hard for the Middle east confernce on Iraq that Brezinski brought up over two years ago and the Iraq Study Group signed onto.
If anyone wants “political reconciliation” why not push hard for this conference? Get Iran, Iraq,Syria, Israel, Turkey, Saudia Arabia, etc etc. under the same roof/tent/sky for this conference.
That is unless they want to pre-emptively attack Iran which we know some of them want to do.
Too much Chertoff on the telly. I think he’s still auditioning for AG….he’s bragging about what “he” has done…all BS, of course.
Thank G*d, crocker dispenses with his opening statement.
Levin: Iraqi forces are able to take up more of the responsibility for security. 95 battalions which can take the lead, 89 of these battalions are in the Iraqi army. Many of these have not actually taken the lead. How many of the 89 not in the lead. (P: I don’t know. Geez, Louise, why not?) British out of Basra, PM Brown UK switch to “overwatch” role.
Levin cites the NYT story about Baghdad neighborhoods (This was a good article) Mahdi army in control in many areas. Climate of violence and fear.
Crocker: I do not recall.
check this out from think progress;
Slightly OT: Why weren’t Patraeus & Crocker sworn in?
ramjet @ 5
i think there’s a lot of truth to this. but i’ve come to think it’s only a small part of what’s happening…. i think many dems in dc actually don’t want to end the occupation of iraq. (see jayackroyd’s excellent diary). siun’s info on the dem presidential front runners position on withdrawal supports this hypothesis.
perris @ 20
I have wondered if this is a contingency based upon the possibility that significant numbers of Republicans will bail on Iraq as their re-election campaigns begin.
The occupation of Iraq will not end until the Iraqis DRIVE US OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY or they manange to kill every American soldier in their country. NOT ONE Democrat has the courage to go up against the right-wing noise machine. NOT ONE Democrat has the courage of their convictions. This country has been subverted by facists. This country is facist. The only end to this occupation is when all American soldiers are dead and we have no more to send. So we will occupy Iraq until this nation is brought to it’s knees. The sooner the better.
Ron Paul had pledged to bring the troops home.
Kathy/Fozzetti @ 22
As far as Petraeus, he is military and it is against the law for them to lie at any time. For example, every officer is a legal notary by fact of thier commission.
As far as Crocker goes, the Senante assumed he was already under oath because he looks like Phil Spector when his hair gets messed up a little bit.
Here’s my take. None of the leading contenders, even Edwards, can risk an Eisenhower moment to get the troops out. There are two reasons for this. One of them is the unmentionable lobby whose acronym begins with ‘A’; the other is the foreign policy establishment who deeply believe that unless we can control, or at least influence in a big way, the middle east, it is all up with us as a great power. Why we have to be a great power is never questioned, and I suppose never will be.
So no likely president is going to say I am going to get us out of that hell-hole. What is going to get us out is military defeat. The surge obviously can’t be sustained, and everyone including the thuglicans concede that. But the steady-state force level can’t be maintained at 100,000 either. What about the 40 to 50,000 you toss around above? The problem here is that it is an occupation. And it is an occupation of what is on paper a sovereign state. If we are not invited to stay, which will require a sustainable coup d’etat, we cannot stay without showing our cards: the cards being that this is an Occupied Territories gambit. Europe won’t stand for it, and the Russians and Chinese can make it so costly for us that we will wish it never happened. Both of those states know who this operation essentially targeted.
It’s a lose-lose situation. The Dems are going to have to face up to it sooner or later, or it will punch them in the face.
In order to have a credible exit policy from Iraq we need at this point to have humanitarian effort to protect the Iraqis who are vulnerable for retribution for various reasons like religion or affiliation with the US military.
We need to coordinate efforts with neighboring nations to offer sanctuary for these individuals. I have just heard that Syria is limiting the amount of refugees right now coming from Iraq. That is not good…..
I remember a while back there was a post here that had a picture of an Iraqi child running for her life. Her small arms were waving about wildly and her hair blowing in front of her small frighten vulnerable face. She was running with her family to where I know not. I hope she and her family are still alive right now.
It is this picture that is imprinted in my mind that brings up every conceivable bit of anger and horror at this terrible injustice.
So it is with this thought in mind that my concerns are also with the people of Iraq who are living with this nightmare along with our soldiers who do not deserve to be used in this campaign that has brought nothing to the table except death and destruction to another country.
Is Siun not coming?
Timeline:
Oct 2006: US sides w/ Sunnis in Anbar
late Jan 2007: surge supposedly begins
Mar 2007: progress seen in Anbar
June 2007: full surge
Today: Petraeus says progress in Anbar would have taken longer without the surge.
Question: When did the surge really begin?
Kathy/Fozzetti @ 22
good fucking question. this kind of BS used to piss me off when the Rs were in the majority of congress. but now, the committee chairs are all Ds…. i am just speechless with rage.
… and yeah, i know it’s still supposed to be illegal to lie to congress. but we all know what that means. i wanted to see them take an oath to tell the truth.
A Combat Brigade is typically comprised of 3-4 line Battalions and a support Battalion, generally the support Bn is larger than a line Bn. A line (Combat) battalion is made up of 3-4 line companies and a large HHC (support) company. A line company is comprised of 3-4 line platoons and a larger support platoon. I hope this gives ya’ll a little perspective on a Brigade’s composition!!!
It’s pretty fuckin clear that the surge had nothing to do with the changes in Anbar. How COULD it have?
ramjet @ 5
I’m with you all the way. Despite the fact that a majority of the US population polled WANT us out of Iraq, the Dem’s continue to waffle, stall and cave to the Pub’s on ALL issues.
Instead of taking a HUGE opportunity from the ‘06 get go and conduct hearings, enforce supboena’s, begin impeachment proceedings, etc., they’ve been like sheelple.
Why? Cuz if this war HAD ended as a result of their efforts, the resultant bloodbath of civil retribution in Iraq that will occur NO MATTER WHAT WE DO would have been dumped in their laps for the erections of ‘08.
Sick, sad, true and real . . . I suggest we target Democrats all accross the board in ‘08 with the progressive messages that need to be voiced.
The Dem’s could EASILY lose this election, at this rate . . . only pressure from the progressives can keep the dem’s honest and beholden to their constituents and do the things WE THE PEOPLE elected them to do in the first place.
We.
Need.
More.
Progressive.
Pressure.
On ALL dem’s . . . ’specially Pelosi!!!
If the invasion is BOUND to continue with Dem support, then the least the dem’s could do is put forth a FULL and MEAN AND NASTY EFFORT in Congress with respect to the domestic front . . . and hound, chase and prosecute the criminals who started this clusterphook.
Harumph.
The Democrats are still clueless in framing a program to fight terrorism which is essential to respond politically to Republican political strategy that justifies all abuses to the need to “win the war on terrorism”.
One aspect of this is the Democrats’ failure to place in proper context the ongoing and endless commitment of military power in Iraq. This could be done with an argument such as the following:
It seems that OBL has a pretty good strategy in place using Neocon kneejerk reaction of miltary attacks against them. When America is threatened or attacked, the neocon kneejerk reaction is “all or nothing”, “with us or against us” military response. Its strategy, in line with that mindset, was a misguided invasion and now occupation of Iraq. Like a judo master using the momentum of an opponent’s attack against the attacker, OBL not only has most of America’s military power now pinned down in Iraq for as far into the future as the eye can see, but OBL has done so with very little investment, and smoke and mirrors for the most part.
In the meantime, OBL is using the Iraq invasion against America very successfully in recruiting committed anti-American activists for both miltant and political opposition to America.
This is one of the most galling aspects of the neocon strategy in our American battle with violent extremists of all stripes, that the neocons are fundamentally so obtuse in the accumulation and use of power.
Why doesn’t someone ask Petraeus whether, from a strategic standpoint, it makes sense to commit most of our military power in this way. My guess is that this is one of the primary points of conflict he has with the Joint Chiefs. The JCs see the absurdity of this, Petraeus is simply providing a tactical solution to the Bush political strategy of staying the course in Iraq.
As a footnote, it is stunning to see the Democrats so flumoxed by the Republican “war on terror” and “support the troops” mantras. The failure to put together a sound policy to fight violent extremism around the globe shows me that the Democrats, including all the presidential contenders, don’t yet have the political smarts and skills necessary to lead this nation.
Since the Congress and the American taxpayers are funding each and every one of those highly priced contractors and mercenaries, they are bloody well entitled to reports on how many there are, what they are used for, and aggregate and detailed costs. Period. If the Dems don’t push for that information, then all their proposals for dealing with George Bush’s Iraq problem will deal with only half the problem.
If the Dems don’t document the messes George W. Bush is and has created and is leaving behind, then the Ed Gillespies and Karl Roves will easily tar them with both the problems and the financial and political costs of fixing them.
Are the Dems really so stupid that they don’t see that? So spineless that they refuse to respond to it? So willing to assume all the illegitimate powers Bush has stuffed into his presidential black bag? If so, then Gollum fares well by comparison. If so, their “leadership” should be voted out of office and out of Congress.
David @ 25
Hedge funds are broke, banks are broke, and even retirement funds are imploding.
The Fed has fucked up.
Hard to fight a war with a broken country.
selise @ 32
You’ve probably seen this. Ray McGovern had the same question:
http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=11594
If only GeneGene were alive today! We could send him down to the Senate hearing room…
(youtube link)
There IS no such thing as tactics to win “the war on terrorism” as ya can’t defeat a TACTIC- only an enemy.
If you start zeroin in on the real issues with a bit more specificity- such as :
“How can the US cause the size of Al Queda to shrink rather than grow”- then one might find some solutions- but they are unlikely to be military.
Siun,
Thanks for pressing on this point. We need to get better answers from the Democratic presidential candidates, and they better be honest answers.
I’m not surprised by Clinton & Obama’s half a loaf option. But I am surprised at Edwards, and Kucinich.
All these gazillion debates are not pressing two of the most critical questions:
1. What would you do to restore confidence in the Constitution of the U.S., including the balance of powers and the bill of rights?
(My tally so far: Dodd gets an A, Edwards gets a B, and everyone else seems to be fudging. Give’m a D.)
2. (Your question, slightly modified) How many U.S. troups, including mercenaries, would your administration still have in Iraq in 2010?
(My tally, based mainly on your report: Richardson gets an A and everyone else gets a C.)
Bob in HI
Impressions I’ve gained from the carefully-couched details in the answers to the questions of Members of Congress by Petraeus and Crocker, during this song and dance routine orchestrated by the White House:
The American occupiers have a chokehold on the central, “national” government (basically the cabinet and its ministries) in Baghdad’s Green (American) Zone. Our control over the Iraqi parliament seems to be far more limited, to the point where we seem to be actively encouraging and enabling an end-run around the parliament by the Iraqi Cabinet members and ministry leadership that we control (the Executive Branch in effect end-running the Legislative Branch ‘because it can’ – which sounds familiar…).
For example, last I knew a majority of the Iraqi parliament had voted (just a few months ago) to require its agreement and concurrence before the imposition of any future, further U.N. “mandate” allowing the occupation of their country by Americans to continue (the current U.N. Mandate providing us legal cover, and arranged by al-Maliki, expires 12/31/07). Yet we hear today from Petraeus that certain “leaders” of Iraq will be requesting a new mandate from the U.N. for continued American occupation of Iraq, and following that, agreement on a “long-term” security arrangement with the United States. Which Iraqi “leaders” are these – and what does the Iraqi parliament have to say about that on behalf of the people of Iraq…?
Meanwhile, American military occupiers are allowing, encouraging and now bribing (through the cabinet ministers they control) tribes and sects of the 18 different provinces of Iraq to effectively self-govern, with the forced blessing of the al-Maliki puppet “national” cabinet (apparently acting mostly independently of the national parliament) on which we have a chokehold. This provincial self-governance has already been implemented in the most homogeneous provinces, and the major sticking points that remain are the multi-ethnic, multi-sect areas like Baghdad and Diyala province – although the millions of displaced citizens and Iraqi refugees in other countries, and the concrete walls being built between neighborhoods in Baghdad (and “gated communities” and virtual martial law in Fallujah), are slowly but surely changing the composition of those formerly-mixed areas, and dividing them along “peaceful” sectarian lines.
The four SE Iraq provinces are already effectively independent of any “Iraq” central authority, despite the presence there of the Shia-dominated national police and Iraqi Army forces [note that there are basically no American or British forces in these four provinces now - has genocide ensued…?]. This development is fine with our Executive Branch, according to the witnesses (no genocide to report from their perspective, despite the disagreements of different armed Shi’ite groups and militias and effective lawlessness of those provinces). Petraeus admitted in testimony that those Shia -dominated southern provinces (with 30% of the overall Iraqi population and 80% of its known oil reserves) have no al-Qaeda presence because Shia provinces won’t tolerate Sunni-comprised al Qaeda members’ presence in their provinces.
The same presumably holds true, as to al-Qaeda, in the Kurdish north (as it is also increasingly true even in the Sunni al-Anbar province). Therefore, the only areas of Iraq where we could ever even have been claiming to have been fighting (the thousands-strong at most) al Qaeda in Iraq (once it materialized there after our invasion) were in Sunni-dominated regions and city neighborhoods. And since Sunnis represent only 20% of Iraq’s population, that doesn’t make for most of the populated area of Iraq, by a long, long shot. Yet four years in, that boogeyman is still being peddled as a major justification for our expropriation of the territory of Iraq.
Baghdad itself has become something close to a 70% Shi’ite majority city, despite our presence and surge, after starting out as a 65% Sunni majority city at the time of our invasion. On our watch. Yet this drastic turnaround in the sectarian make-up of the capital city in which our Green Zone is located – to the great detriment of Iraq’s minority Sunni population – seems to be of no great concern to the Executive Branch that has “overwatched” this development for years now without stopping it, or significantly changing tactics or strategy to help stop it.
On the contrary, from all appearances, our failure to act to prevent such de facto separation into tribal and sect-ruled zones in Baghdad seems “of a plan” with the ongoing fracturing of Iraq that Crocker and Petraeus appear to consider to be hopeful “political reconciliation” backed and encouraged by central government dollars.
Inexorable, occupier-induced fragmentation of the nation of Iraq is the de facto operative policy of our ongoing presence in Iraq, from all appearances, nevermind the stated, alleged, supposed future objectives of our “mission” and purpose for remaining in that nation. “The course” is clear – a change is happening inside Iraq, while the only publicly-stated objectives remain essentially wholly unmet according even to the White House shills testifying to Congress. The new Hunt Oil exploration contract with the Kurdish North is further proof of our de facto policy, from all appearances.
The only thing that Petraeus and Crocker fear is that Congress will recognize and publicly identify and condemn the actual policy being implemented under their command, that is changing the face of Iraq probably forever, against and despite the will of its people. A policy that will partition and fragment into multiple zones a formerly-sovereign nation with enormously valuable reserves of oil, into sect-run, warlord-vulnerable, Big Oil contract-friendly fiefdoms.
Congress can call Petraeus and Crocker as many names as they like – challenge any and all of their statistics – just as long as they don’t get around to accusing these men of implementing an American-imposed reshaping of Iraq that the Iraqi people themselves violently oppose. I’d say their chances of being so challenged by our Legislative Branch are slim to none.
[Slim?! Senator Bob Menendez just did it?! Wow. Don’t drop that point, Senator! This is a “competition and a street fight over power and (extremely-valuable oil) resources” among sects and provinces, which we are “overwatching” and simply trying to facilitate to a more, rather than less, peaceful conclusion, according to these witnesses - rather than, and in lieu of, helping to “build a nation.” The truth seeps out.] I do want to applaud all the Members of Congress who have finally begun to raise and highlight the opinions of the Iraqi people as a whole, thanks to the vital BBC/ABC/NKU poll just released (Loretta Sanchez, Barbara Boxer, Ben Cardin and Carl Levin among others), which has been the unmentioned elephant in the room until now but that ought to be of paramount concern for any civilized people, as we claim to be.
In short we are facilitating ‘winners and losers’ as ‘peacefully’ as possible between the different sects and provinces – but carefully not encouraging an overall Iraqi multi-sect power-sharing national solution centered in Baghdad as apparently desired by the Iraqi parliament and people; a multi-sect “nationalist” power-sharing solution which – despite conventional wisdom, White House spin, and statements of former Iraqi exile puppet cabinet members to the contrary – is still the stated wish and will of the majority (at least outside of the Kurdish region) of the Iraqi people themselves. Which is exactly why those Iraqis (the majority who aren’t being bribed to divide up Iraq) want us out so that they can reconstruct their own country on their own nationalist terms, rather than in response to orders given while staring down the barrels of American guns.
I refrained on the live threads from posting this interesting Laura Rozen post (via matthew yglesias). It’s about some of the reporting on Iran:
http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/006592.html
Knut Wicksell:
There’s another reason they “can’t risk an Eisenhower moment” that you forgot to mention…
ramjet @ 5
Your comment is ridiculous. The Repiglicans are evil, and it is their war. We Democrats are not perfect, but we are not sufficiently organized to have a conspiracy.
But if you want conspiracies, try Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, or 9-11 Inside Job.
Powwow – You have a great mind. I love your digging and thoughtful analyses.
Knut Wicksell @28:
I also think much or most of this “establishment” also recognize that attacking Iran will hasten military defeat. I suspect they see Iran as a luxury they can’t afford just yet, while holding on to Iraq is an imperial imperative by now.
“Will the current strategy make the U.S. safer?” asks John Warner, (R. Va.)
“I don’t know.” answers David Patraeus.
Byrd! Ask P about the Saddam 9/11 connection.
He he.
ramjet @ 5
I don’t disagree, but I’d use slightly different language. The Democrats are scared to death (except for Richardson) of going on record in support of a 100% pull-out because they’ve drunk too much DC kool-aid and fear that they would be branded as “weak” on national security. They will be “hawkish” during the election season (remember Kennedy’s “missile gap”?), but if elected, some of them will “discover” that there are no viable reasons to maintain troops in Iraq, and that they are needed elsewhere. My problem is that I have no idea to tell which candidates will remain hawks after the elections, and which will turn out to be geese.
Bob in HI
Apparently, Israel bombed Iranian targets in Syria last week.
I got to thinking back about that quote in “Dead Certain” about Bush saying he was “playing” for October/November as an incentive to keep troops in Iraq.
One of these days, we’re gonna wake up to the news..
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..141954/106
Great work, Siun.
The candidates who would extend our Occupation in Iraq have no mercy for the Iraqi people –
And merit no mercy from us.
Hound them, mock them, harry them, pursue them.
They are beneath contempt – and worthy of political destruction. May the
pro-Occupation candidatesservants of empire wither and suffer each day our Occupation continues.So mote it be.
Blessed be, Kirk…
pow wow – when are you going to start a blog so you can cross post all your great comments in one place?
i hate the idea that i might miss one.
pow wow @ 42
Great post. Brilliant and simple and obvious only it has to be OUTED to be realized by the masses.
Divide and conquer. Invade, break up, and divide and conquer. From the get go.
PNAC all the way, and this is the model one nation at a time.
Thanks for a great post and outing the truth.
It needs to be shouted everywhere to the Dem’s we elected so they can USE it to turn around their despicapble performance to date.
Oh, I forgot. The Dem’s get money from the same people as the Pub’s, and it’s all to buy foreign policy to benefit the 1%er’s.
Same as the old boss.
Solution?
Progressive pressure on all dem’s at all times and make them pay for not supporting progressive ideals.
Either YOU the dem’s help pull this country from the right and back to the center of progressive idealism or you lose our votes, and fund raising support.
I’m astonished that there hasn’t been any pressure applied to get the numbers from the DLC/Murdock-approved Democratic candidates for president.
It begs the question of whether we should have anyone with presidential powers at all. I think energy would be better spent on rethinking the whole idea of this type of government that puts so much power in the hands of one person and perhaps on consideration of less lopsided alternatives.
Of course, academics have already done a great deal of the legwork one might anticipate in such an endeavour. That should save a lot of bother in a quest for a more equitable form of government.
But I digress.
pow wow @41:
Your great comment describes partition. Good cops like Joe Biden and bad ones like Charles Krauthammer are already broaching the subject. According to the latter it’s local and ground up…he doesn’t explain the contradiction of why the U.S. army is supposedly needed to oversee it.
Bob in Hawaii at 51: Why don’t you include Kucinich as a Democrat who is not scared of being called a pussy? (I am paraphrasing what I take to be your point.)
bobschact @49:
This standard analysis of Democrats as having “drunk the koolaid” or being “afraid” of such-and-such is kind of subjective and circular.
It reminds me of a particularly egregious example of subjective, unempirical Beltway pseudo-analysis I saw this morning:
“Democrats, appearing defensive because of the MoveOn.org attack on Petraeus, treated him respectfully throughout the hearing.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
About a week ago, I read a story (WaPo?) describing the surge of “reconstruction teams” that accompanied the surge of combat forces. These are essential civilians, and there are now thousands of them in country as part of the effort, and they have been a key to the claims of “success” in working with the Sunni Tribes in Anbar and elsewhere.
The interesting tidbit in the article was the fact that since these were “civilian” teams, they were required to provide their own armed security. Two implications: (1) the “surge” includes thousands of additional armed people performing functions that would otherwise be performed by US Army combat units and/or Marines, and (2) when anyone talks about withdrawing combat troops, it never includes these armed “civilian” security forces. None of the candidates, including Richardson (as far as I know), has mentioned this.
Inhofe clearly has been smoking crack.
Inhofe telling Byrd to go to Iraq.
I want to tell Inhofe where to go.
Hugh @ 11
Hugh,
I think you’re confusing the name Badr. There are 3 applications of the name to keep straight:
1. Badr Brigade, which is actually part of the Jordanian Army;
2. Abolhassan Banisadr, the first President of Iran, following the 1979 Iranian Revolution and the abolition of the monarchy. BaniSadr is now living in exile in France. Take the first letter and the last 3 letters of his name, and you get “Badr.” Did this ellipsis happen in your mind?
3. The Badr Organization, which is what you’re thinking of. This organization is not led by someone named Badr, but rather by Hadi Al-Amiri, according to the Wikipedia, which offers no explanation for the name “Badr”.
What do you base your assessment of the Badr organization’s ties to the U.S. on?
Bob in HI
BigMitch @ 61
Inhofe theory: If I keep talking and talking and talking, someone will find me relevant.
ramjet @ 5, adjusting my tinfoil hat and agreeing with your take on the Dems. BTW, had a good friend with the nickname ramjet.
Petraeus just told Inhofe that a group of bright guys wrote the first 2 drafts of his report. He then said that he took it over 2 weeks ago and shared it back and forth with that “group”. Then he said he rewrote parts of it. Then he said that the report that is now presented to Congress was not shared or vetted by either the WH or Congress (Inhofe interjected Pentagon).
Inhofe is truly insufferable. If you opposed the invasion and do not support the “surge” you are the adversary. He is an obfuscating a-hole, as much in denial about Iraq as about global warming.
Your federal tax dollars at work: The private war of BushCo Inc is world’s biggest robbery WITH the cooperation of Congress.
Brisingamen @ 54
And to you, Brisingamen.
Loved your ritual
Can’t wait to work it.
Thanks.
Inhofe is doing a good job of regurgitating all the rightwing talking points used to justify this illegal war.
Thank you, Richmond – and I very much appreciate your dogged focus on the influence of A*P*C and Israel’s authoritarian leadership on our government.
Maybe once our legislators start listening to the people again, selise (thank you too), I’d feel more inclined to give them free, focused feedback that they might appreciate having. Until then, I’m very grateful to have Jane’s and Christy’s and Marcy’s (and Siun and Scarecrow et al’s) determined blogging efforts behind which to throw some weight.
LS @ 67
so he didn’t write it his own self, did he?
Here goes Joey Lieberman. Expect reach arounds.
Shorter JoeLie: I’ll stroke you as long as you please, just like I pleasure the Shrub.
K. Trout @ 68
I haven’t seen it, but this morning on the radio I heard an infuriating reference to an article in the Rolling Stone, which describes the war as an “invasion of the U.S. treasury” for the benefit of contractors. One quote made the case for me: since the war began there has not been a single prosecution for war profeteering, nor has one single refund of an overpayment been requested.
Holy shit!
The fact that Petraeus could not answer Sen. Warner’s question whether present policy in Iraq is making the U.S. safer is most indicative. Petraeus’ pretext : he has not had a chance to ponder that question while discharging Bush policy in Iraq.
LIeberman, just as insufferable as Inhofe.
Is someone going to ask Petraus who the 2 people who “helped” him with his report are? Would be a good question.
Elliott @ 72
He said he “took control of the electrons, and basically re-wrote it.” Sounds like an elementary school penmanship exercise. Re-write this passage …..
If these guys pull out 30,000 troops by mid-2008, I’ll eat my sandals. I don’t believe it. Congress should call their bluff and mandate it (just as Joey L. just asked P.)
kirk murphy @ 69
Maybe it’s already working. It was against Oathtakers. McConnell testified in the Lieberman hearing that US surveillance allowed in the temporary FISA bill is what really contributed to the capture of the German “terrorists”. That may have been blatant perjury.
Petraeus has been stating that the report is in his own words, that nobody wrote it for him or told him what to say…now, he just said that a group of guys wrote the first two drafts and he made changes.
Lieberman-just because we want to pull troops out doesn’t mean it should be mandated.
liz @ 77
Also, if they are so smart, I would like to see their draft, which he had to re-write.
kirk murphy @ 68
You’re welcome, and glad you liked it — give it your best shot! (It “felt” right all the way through when I finished this morn…)
BigMitch @ 76
Yup. Good point bigmitch! And a part of that is Susan Collins and Lieberman who have headed that committee!!
Jowls Lieberloser now up and very busy kissing Davey
CrockettPetraeus’s ass while giving the finger to all Democrats in view.I suspect Jowls has a date with Junya again tonite for some more necking.
Wow, I’m astonished. Hilary and Obama, sure, I understand cuz they’re tools of AIPAC. Edwards talks against the war a good game tho.
ramjet at 5
IMO, you pretty well hit the nail squarely in the middle of the most middle-part of the head.
I would like to see someone cross-examine General Patreaus from his counter-insurgency manual. As I understand it, the current troop level is far below what is recommended in said manual. Makes me think he has no intention of withdrawing even the meager number of troops that would return us to pre-surge levels.
Lieberman – pious warmonger. Ugh.
Buh-bye, Joe. Now more crap from Sessions.
I have to admit, I find myself wondering if the problem of these Dems isn’t so much lack of backbone, or sheer stupidity as it is a willful neglect.
As poll-driven as these folks are, you’d think they would be very much aware of the polls that show the vast majority of Americans are opposed to this
waroccupation. And yet they do nothing that will have any real impact on it. The same could be said for universal health care. The polls show what we want, and almost none of the candidates will offer it. They all have some Big Insurance-friendly plan instead.Maybe when we suppose that they really want to do the right thing, but are somehow prevented from doing it we’re just projecting our own ethics and values onto them.
This hypothesis would explain a lot… but then again perhaps I really did get up on the cynical side of the be this morning.
Jowls Lieberloser rattlin’ the saber at Iran now:
“Should we give you, General Petraeus, authority to attack Iran (please say yes Davey, I know you want to as much as I do. Puleeeeeezzzzeee!).”
Breaking news from CNN
And will the American public buy this as success?
I would think that it would be obvious by now that the majority of elected so-called representatives of the people, are anything but representative of the people’s wishes.
Rather most of them, on both sides of the aisle, represent big-money interests.
Out entire system of federal government has been corrupted to the bone by greed. That’s just the way it works, and the proof is in the pudding.
These people all lie to us, and play these games, and never really do much of anything that actually benefits the masses. Nothing but photo-ops and grandstanding, but never any substance.
And amazingly enough, I just watched Obama say just that to Jon Stewart on the T.V. last night. He openly stated, and I’m paraphrasing, that the process is all BS, that nobody is really telling the truth, but that’s just the way the system works. Huh?!
Paradoxically, the very people who profit from this system — our elected officials — are the only ones empowered by law to change the very rules that now benefit them at the expense of the rest of us, and future generations.
Like that will ever happen.
Cufford
Fresno, CA
We know that they are not going to pull out of Iraq. They know that we know they are not going to pull out of Iraq. We know that they know that we know tha…………………….never mind.
snowbird42 @ 93
That’s what Petraeus has been saying for the past two days. It still leaves us with 130,000 troops (plus about 100,000 private mercenaries).
SufiLizard @ 91
I think they are scared shitless (except a very few)-scared that they will be attacked as weak on war and terra if they press for a withdrawal of troops, and MORE scared that they will be viewed and attacked as harming Isr*el and its own war interests in the M.E. This is why the Iran bombing situation is so scary, this is also largely Is*ael driven. Note however, that there is notable opposition to these ventures in Is*ael itself, but the wolves at Aip*c are not interested in that perspective getting out. The freaky “Freedom” ad was one of their vestures to press Rethugs to toe the line on the war, and citizens in these districts to do the same. They are bull shit about the Be tray us ad in the NYT not only because they know it is effective, but also because it in the Times which has long supported the war effort, hence AIP*C hawks, David Brooks and Thomas Friedman, to say nothing of Michael Gordon.
Mad Dogs @ 92
Remember that article about how the rollout for the attack on Iran would begin on 9-11?…
snowbird42 @ 94
…so they can get ready to invade Iran.
BigMitch @ 87
US Army Counterinsurgency Manual
snowbird42 @ 93
To me this reads like we are having an impact – even if the only thing it is is “show.” Once there is action “for show” it provides the entry for Dems and others to include related actions “for real.”
Put your own lying ass on the line for our war Liarman or at least encourage your own children to put their asses on the line for your wars.
Too bad little george never encountered a hornet’s nest. They were probably all removed so that georgie would not have any bad experiences. Of course, little george and his family will NEVER have to experience the consequences of poking a hornet’s nest, will they. After we blow up some frogs, let’s go bomb Iran. That would be cool doncha think?
petraeus says he’s not aware of the number troops available? wtf? did anyone else just hear that?
Richmond @ 98
All I’ve seen is a thronging Congress hanging on the words of this Bushite Boulanger (acknowledgments to Paul Krugman). To attribute it to the A-people (as much as I ride this particular hobby-horse myself), is to understate the corruption of this supposed republic.
twolf1 @ 98
This is the reason.
The Nightmare Scenario, Part 2.
Richmond @ 97
I used to think that too, but I’m really having my doubts now. I think Cufford at 94 is closer to the actual truth. For the most part, Dems and Repugs are playing for the same team, even though they wear different jerseys. But they both view “We The People” as their opponents and Big Business as their teammates.
I think all the evidence we need for that is right there on C-SPAN. We’ve all rationalized excuses for why the Dems have accomplished almost nothing since taking over congress. Maybe they just don’t want to. (With a few notable exceptions).
So it’s official.. Shrubomination Rex is going to cut troops by 30,000, if “progress is made” over 12 months and will leave 130,000 troops there, apparently regardless of progress… cause that’s what he told his general to say… and the media is breaking into regular broadcasting to announce this momentous news :P… Embed shrub.
snowbird42 @ 92
Attention K-mart shoppers: There will be a 10% reduction on prices that we increased by 10% last month.
new thread
snowbird42 @ 94
Hmmm…Junya finally figured out that the troop well has run dry.
Since he has no more troops to send, and the ones there are due to rotate home, voila! Junya done found his hands are tied, so now he’s “for” a troop reduction.
Shorter Junya: “Jest in time for mah Repugs in 08 to run away from Iraq. Thankee, thankee Ed Gillespie for heppin’ me count mah toes.
And no sirree! This ain’t cuttin’ and runnin’. This is…ahmmm…WTF is this Eddie? Y’all is mah marketing weasel. WTF should ah call this?”
Uh- this is all bullshit- The incremental troops actually have to be withdrawn by MARCH- cause we don’t have enough fuckin troops!!
Total nonsense.
Remember when Seymour Hersch told us several years ago that we all ready have special forces in Iran? Would not put it past the U.S. or Israel (Mossad) to be training folks in Iran to mess with the situation.
The U.S. and Israel should be forced (by aliens) to sign some agreement saying that they will not pre-emptively attack Iran.
I would want nuclear weapons if I were Iran witnessing what we just did in Iraq and Israel just did in Lebanon. (although Iaea’s El Baradei has said that is not what is happenning in Iran)
BREAKING NEWS:
New thread upstairs.
Zed has been had.
BigMitch @ 57
If he qualifies, add him to the list.
Bob in HI
Mad Dogs @ 112
Actually .. no.. as I understand it, his troop reduction is still tied to some ill-defined notion of “progress” and is therefore so contingent that it may as well be another outright lie. The man has no shame.. or, for that matter, soul.
{{{{{SIUN}}}}}
OT – today is Markos b’day – send him some kudos over at his place.
Just read yesterday’s hardball transcript. Pretty good discussion. This little piece of political theatre is all about creating some breathin room for goopers from purple districts to allow em to vote for the continuation of Bush’s war. There will be a stupid ass bill calling for a 30,000 troop reduction by summer- and goopers can then claim that they voted to start windin down the war…ANYONE could have seen this fuckin train comin..
Add Kucinich to EVERY list “And Kucinich”
Doesn’t matter-
Shorter GenPet: “Not to bring up Anbar again, but, in Anbar!…”
Shorter Crock: “Again, that’s a different story!…” /s
I think that “125,000-200,000″ number is for all civilian contractors. Only a minority of those (they don’t tell us how many) are “security contractors”, which is what I would refer to as mercenaries. The rest are, e.g., third world construction workers who think they are going to the United Arab Emirates, but have their passports taken away and get abducted to Baghdad to work on the new US Embassy.
But the mercenaries are a new and worrisome part of the whole military-industrial problem. Apart from annoying the citizen-soldiers who don’t get paid anywhere near as much to risk their lives, it’s a self-sustaining profession based on unaccountable violence. We’re already seeing a trend of bad-apple cops in my hometown getting thrown out of the police force and heading straight off to Iraq as “security contractors”. It almost makes me dread the end of the war, when all these mercenaries will be coming back home.
brendan @ 60
I stand by what I wrote. It is part of an endemic pattern with DLC Democrats.
Bob in HI
” Only Bill Richardson has pledged to remove all troops except for a standard Marine contingent to protect the Embassy.”
why is it that you guys continue to ignore Kucinich, who has called for complete withdrawal since the war began! The only democrat with morals and you guys shun him! Wake up!
Kucinich is polling 1% after months of campaigning. Like him or hate him- he’s no more a factor than my Dog- who I love very much.
I think Matt Yglesias hit on this point about a year ago. Dem leadership doesn’t want to leave Iraq, they want the chance to do it better. Forty to sixty thousand troops no matter what their classification status still equals occupation.
This would explaing the weird ditherings coming from dem front runners and leadership. A slam dunk issue and they’re willing to help Bush kick this can down the road. Very strange.
NO,no. Juan Cole has it right. shrub and his minions are playing this perfectly. If the Democrats pull out the troops there will be fighting that will cause oil prices to go even higher than they are now and perhaps result in other economic woes here. The result will be that the Republicans will win a bunch in 2010 and the (presumably) Democratic president will be one term. shrub has us and the Democrats by the short hairs.
Gug
Two things:
1. My belief is that regardless of what Congress does, Bush will keep 130,000 troops in Iraq until the day he leaves office. It was little noted that his veto statement of the withdrawal bill which the Democrats passed six months ago called any restriction on his power as commander-in-chief as unconstitutional. He will ignore Congress, and, if necessary, the Courts.
2. If we can only withdraw about 15 brigades a year, it will take at least two years to withdraw 130,000 troops from the day Hillary takes office. And perhaps we should have long-term bases in Kurdistan and Al Anbar. I would like to see these issues discussed before the election so that there won’t be any surprises, but I’m not sure how that could happen.
Democrats.
Are.
Part.
Of.
The.
Empire.
Too.
Get it?
“Only Bill Richardson has pledged to remove all troops …”
Respectfully, not so. In one word – Kucinich. (:>
Cufford @ 95
Interesting point filled with the contradictions of our time. OK representative democracy doesn’t work in that it doesn’t represent. If the overwhelming majority of voters want out of Iraq, it should be easy to field a third party. The Dems clearly are not the party of immediate withdrawal, at least not the front runners who think the nation generally is too nationalistic to “accept” defeat at this time. On the other hand the prospect of progressives, the left or whatever you call us deciding on a single candidate is slim to none. The Dems have lots wrong with them but so do we.
RonD @ 107
That was a great read a while back when I first saw it posted by yourself.
I wonder if the domestic crackdowns will come that late in your scenerio, though . . . methinks they will come MUCH earlier . . .
Here’s hoping none of it happens . .
Voting Present @ 122
That’s a valid, and MAJOR fear I fear. And will be part of the instability that will plague our nation as we begin to splinter more and more.
I’m a registered Democrat who donates to this site. I state that up front because I don’t want anyone to think I’m a troll. I agree with the comments that we need to get out of this war. I support Kucinich, but am now actively supporting Ron Paul. He wants the troops out now, wants the Patriot Act rescinded and doesn’t support USA being in any war unless we are directly attacked. GOP and mainstream media seem to be actively trying to disrupt his candidacy (see FOX GOP debate). Something to consider if the dems continue in this vane. I disagree with many of his domestic issues positions but, to me, they take a backseat to the war issues. I know I’ll get slammed for this..my first post…but, whatever. Peace.
Wavering @ 134
What are you wavering about? I agree with your analysis but I don’t see either man getting his party’s nomination. What then?
DemocracyNow! did a taker down on Petraeus this AM
And now are onto the missing $9 Billion
Listen to it and your blood will boil.