zed?

Morning Christy!

Morning Christy.

Fine way to start such a sad day. Thank you.

Good morning Christy!

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

If This is Goodbye Emmylou Harris and Mark Knopler. This song was based on last phone calls that morning.

My famous last words
Are laying around in tatters
Sounding absurd
Whatever I try
But I love you
And that’s all that really matters
If this is goodbye
If this is goodbye

Yout bright shining sun
Would light up the way before me
You were the one
Made me feel I could fly
And I love you
Whatever is waiting for me
If this is goodbye
If this is goodbye

Who knows how long we’ve got
Or what were made out of
Who knows if there’s a plan or not
There is our love
I know there is our love

My famous last words
Could never tell the story
Spinning unheard
In the dark of the sky
But I love you
And this is our glory
If this is goodbye
If this is goodbye

Good Morning Christy, that video is just right

Good morning CHS, dawgs. Your post provides a sobering reason to redirect our energies back to the affairs at hand.

Here we are supposed to rally at the State Capitol today, so naturally it is raining Cats and Dogs outside.

nonplussed @ 7

Good morning CHS, dawgs. Your post provides a sobering reason to redirect our energies back to the affairs at hand.

Here we are supposed to rally at the State Capitol today, so naturally it is raining Cats and Dogs outside.

what is at the capitol? what time?

nonplussed @ 7

Good morning CHS, dawgs. Your post provides a sobering reason to redirect our energies back to the affairs at hand.

Here we are supposed to rally at the State Capitol today, so naturally it is raining Cats and Dogs outside.

It can always rain phone calls!

morning all – coffee is almost ready…

We were just talking about the beauty and fragility of life in the last thread.

French roasted organic beans, a French press and heavy organic cream. Brewing, brewing, done! Now that’s coffee. For a little reality based reporting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6988828.stm

I was thinking last night how the kids at school are now, for the most part, too young to know what 9/11 was…

Instead all they have seen is this senseless war for most of their lives.

On the way to the bus stop my 12 year old explained 9/11 to our seven year old. The seven year old asked “What has 9/11 got to do with Iraq?” “Nothing” was the 12 year old’s answer.

Teach your children well..

I just now read Ari Melber’s article at the Nation, and I disagree with his basic thesis that the Bushies run over the rule of law because they find it and impediment to protecting the American people. IMHO they are congenital fascists, and they find the rule of law an impediment to imperial power. The desire for security is merely a useful and effective pretext.

I remember the gumbo krewe.
They brought pots of food up from Louisiana after the planes flew into the Twin Towers, because food is one way New Orleaneans show their love. There was a collection to purchase a firetruck for the first responders, and our hearts went out to them.

Lee at 5 — Well, that would be a great thing, if the Bush Administration and the GOP would actually commit to fighting intelligently and without destroying the fabric of the rule of law and our nation’s values in the process. Oh, and put resources toward effective fighting of terroristic groups instead of making things worse worldwide– you know, like not diverting desperately needed resources to a war that we never should have begun in Iraq so that Osama Bin Laden and his chief deputies still remain free to not only reconstitute al qaeda’s funding and training operations, but to strengthen them. It was a stupid, stupid misstep, and one we will pay for over generations.

The blame game goes both ways, man, and we’d all be on much, much better footing if the Rove/WHIG shop had decided to play this straight out and without regard to political expediency — because all the calling people unpatriotic unless they agree with failed planning is simply bullshit. And it’s unAmerican. No amount of dressing it up in a pretty flag wrapper makes it right — it is my flag, too, and my country, and my values which I have worked very hard to support and uphold my whole life.

Stupid choices and political tactics sure as hell don’t make us any safer, either. Isn’t it time that both sides fo the aisle stood up and said “how can we do this better? What is it that we need to change to make more intelligent and critically necessary tactical and diplomatic moves which will strengthen our hand instead of continuing to weaken it?” You know, actually doing the work…

Oh, and the “understanding” Bin Laden comment is utter bullshit. And offensive. I lost friends on 9/11, and have had friends and family in and out of Afghanistan, Iraq and Ground Zero over the past few years. If you think for one minute that I don’t have a very good idea of what a murderer thinks like and looks like, then you are utterly and completely wrong. But I also know that blundering around with a false swagger and no fucking clue how to back it up with the lives and bodies of other people’s children is just so much failure — and our troops deserve a hell of a lot better than piss poor planning and a bunch of tap dancing excuses.

Something very special in that Sting video. They changed the harmonies, and his singing has a deep pain to it. The rhythm carries them thru, but just barely.

How fragile indeed! Watching ‘news’ this early a.m. All about OBL on this aniversary. Some old
guy who sends tapes (VHS)to scare us. I wonder
how he has not upgraded to DVD. Maybe the cash goes toward that beard/hair dye?

Having said that, my most sincere and heartfelt
thoughts to ALL those who have lost as a result of this insanity.

OT We need a guest list to Ravenel’s party! I wonder if Kathleen Parker or other high muckty muck GOPers were there.

Christy @ 18,
Very well said. Thank you.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 19

Lee at 5 — Well, that would be a great thing, if the Bush Administration and the GOP would actually commit to fighting intelligently and without destroying the fabric of the rule of law and our nation’s values in the process. [snip]
Isn’t it time that both sides of the aisle stood up and said “how can we do this better? What is it that we need to change to make more intelligent and critically necessary tactical and diplomatic moves which will strengthen our hand instead of continuing to weaken it?” You know, actually doing the work…[snip]

I think military power is a key aspect in this war. I read the Osama manifesto Friday three times. He plays on our disunity. I’m not playing the “blame game” right now. I just want the Unity we all felt after 9/11 to go after these abominations on humanity and destroy them before they do to us what the Huns did to the Roman Empire.

ceremonies at the White House CSPAN 1

Perhaps the greatest gift for today would be the Democrats standing up and crying “no more”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..63864.html

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

but, but,….

But when a failed Texas oil man took over the White House in January 2001, demands on the Saudis to cut off terror funding simply stopped.

Today is my son’s 30th birthday.

I am mindful of the sons and daughters lost on 9/11. And of the sons and daughters lost on the sands of Iraq in a monstrous distortion of the “war on terror.” bin Laden should have been tracked down long ago. And all other means–diplomacy, education, scientific research, economic honor not sweatshops–should have been used to fight the root of bin Laden’s strength, namely poverty.

Your brief is with the Bushies, LLee, not the left.

In 2001 Bush was reading My Little Goat right this moment. Nothing much has changed.

We who have been blessed with sons and daughters owe much to those who lost theirs. That is why we liberals, we progressives, must prevail in 2008. Demand better. Be better.

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

I hate talk of destruction. Sanctioned murder.

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

no one objects to going after terrorists (well, except the terrorists). i wish we would actually go after them – doesn’t look to me as though bushco is serious about that though.

and would you please leave the strawmen to scarecrow? my objections are:

1) stupid actions in the name of national security that make us less safe and less free.

2) causing the deaths of so many innocents… we have far more blood on our hands than bin laden. if you really care about ending terrorism, how about (in addition to advocating going after bin laden) trying to get our government to stop participating in it? it’s time we condemn all terrorism.

egregious @ 12

We were just talking about the beauty and fragility of life in the last thread.

“We”? Too modest you are, dear eg.

raven -

Been meaning to tell ya how much I love your taste in music; folk and protest will always have the power to twist and wring tears from my heart. Coming of age in the 60’s………

petwrecker @ 26

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

but, but,….

But when a failed Texas oil man took over the White House in January 2001, demands on the Saudis to cut off terror funding simply stopped.

We NEED oil. We will continue to need oil for about 50 years. We can develop alternative sources while we are still consuming oil. But it doesn’t make any sense to P.O. the Saudi Royals who don’t like bin Laden–indeed are bin Laden’s key target–any more than it does to hurt Musharref…

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

Not at the cost of everything that once justified a belief in American exceptionalism. Not at the cost of our souls. And that is the cost that George W. Bush and his ilk have extracted from us against our will.

wigwam @ 16

I just now read Ari Melber’s article at the Nation, and I disagree with his basic thesis that the Bushies run over the rule of law because they find it and impediment to protecting the American people. IMHO they are congenital fascists, and they find the rule of law an impediment to imperial power. The desire for security is merely a useful and effective pretext.

I agree with you – I believe the Bushies run over the rule of law because…they can, they always have, and they always will try to do so. These are completely self-centered, amoral people – they have no concept whatsoever that any action on their parts might have negative effects on anyone else, because they don’t think about there being “anyone else”. All of the “anyone else”s do not exist in their world – they are invisible.

dakine01 @ 22

Christy @ 18,
Very well said. Thank you.

Here, here.

Juan Cole is very wise this morning and he explains clearly what may likely happen to the Dems if they wait til 2009 to end this war.
http://www.juancole.com/

Petraeus/Crocker Part Deux begins at 9:30 am ET on C-Span3. Am going to liveblog as much as I can for everyone…

Permission to revise and extend my remarks.

The Beauty and Fragility of Life

It was at this very hour six years ago the terror began. The world stopped. What happened? What had we lost?

Out of that confusion and grief there has evolved an ever-growing group of patriotic Americans, roused from their sleep to take action to rebuild our nation and its place in the world.

We took stock, gradually learned not only more about what had happened that day, but about the stranglehold on our nation’s fragile democracy.

Do we act as responsible citizens in the world? Does our vote count? Do we permit torture? Do we still believe in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Geneva Conventions?

After a moment of silence to honor our collective loss six years ago, I am prepared to get to work to help the living. We’ve got a lot to do, let’s get going.

I would say that compared with six years ago, I am much more conscious of the beauty and fragility of life. Perhaps I should say, conscious once again, because as a child this awareness was with me every day.

Being at fdl has changed me in ways known and unknown. What a great gift to find all of you. All the things I’m working on continue, but in the company of this immense number of friends and colleagues. We are connected by our desire to reclaim our nation from the abyss and make the future habitable by the next generation. A toast to the fdl community.

——egregious, 11 September 2007

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

George W. Bush has done so much more than Osama Bin Laden to injure this country and its citizens, I don’t quite know where to begin.

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

Funny I’ve been arguing that Bush should stop wasting his time in Iraq and go after Ossama. I understand that he is Pakistan.
I think the 70%ers who want the war with Iraq to end would like the 30% to rejoin the rest of America.
I think its time for Bush to stop ussing 9/11 as an excuse for a war for oil. While the killer of 9/11 shops for haircare products laughing.
Nobody questions our patriotism! Nobody, but after 6 years of wasting our time in Iraq we are tired of war.
Today should be a day of prayer and thought about what is best for our countries future.

what beautiful words egregious. beautiful ideas from a beautiful soul.

I nominate Christy as “Liberty Queen.” Your response was brilliant, Christy. Smart, passionate, to the point, eloquent. It will be a great post text later at some time as well. You are OUR Queen. Scarecrow, Phoenixwoman, Siun- even Jane – I envision as sisters (albeit brilliant ones). With you it is clearly regal red, imperious in the very best sense.

egregious @ 19

Something very special in that Sting video. They changed the harmonies, and his singing has a deep pain to it. The rhythm carries them thru, but just barely.

Good ear. You might like Henry Gorecki’s Symphony of Sorrowful Songs.

Ask any competent military planner or any diplomat, and they will tell you that in order to defeat an opponent, you must understand your opponent: how they think, what they want, what they are capable of, what they fear, etc. If you understand your opponent, you can play on their fears, take advantage of their weaknesses, and neutralize their strengths.

Of course, the operative word there is “competent.” And if those in high political office reject the opinions of those military planners and diplomats, all the competence in the world isn’t going to help much.

Thanks, Christy, for the post and the comment.

selise @ 29

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

no one objects to going after terrorists (well, except the terrorists). i wish we would actually go after them – doesn’t look to me as though bushco is serious about that though.

and would you please leave the strawmen to scarecrow? my objections are:

1) stupid actions in the name of national security that make us less safe and less free.

2) causing the deaths of so many innocents… we have far more blood on our hands than bin laden. if you really care about ending terrorism, how about (in addition to advocating going after bin laden) trying to get our government to stop participating in it? it’s time we condemn all terrorism.

There is no established evidence except from the Terrorists (or their Fifth Column supporters) that the United States has participated in terrorism. We have been fighting the enemy. If someone constructively has a better solution for FIGHTING the enemy I have yet to hear it from the Left. What I am pleading for on this 9/11–before the Election–is to stop the sniping against “Bushco” so we can all work together to FIX the problem of bin Laden and his Islamo-Fascist supporters. I still believe in my heart of hearts that the Left cannot be as negative against America as it sounds. Maybe I’m naive and my compatriots on the Far Right are more accurate about the motivations of you folks, but I keep reading Christy and Jane and down underneath it you all SOUND like thinking reasoning people. But where the rest of it comes from, I don’t know…

egregious, thanks again for you post. On the overnight thread while reading your comments, I got goose bumps. This time I shed a few tears.

Everything is still here this morning, so dry and brown. Many things dying and hanging limp.
I feel sadness for the anniversary but more sadness for our country and the world.
What has been done to change us from a beacon of peace to a nation that kills innocents for nothing?
I hold my breath and wait for the sadness to pass. We must keep fighting.

ani difranco – self evident

snowbird42 @ 43

Everything is still here this morning, so dry and brown. Many things dying and hanging limp.
I feel sadness for the anniversary but more sadness for our country and the world.
What has been done to change us from a beacon of peace to a nation that kills innocents for nothing?
I hold my breath and wait for the sadness to pass. We must keep fighting.

amen

I was just reading a piece over at Common Dreams and the debate in the comments section about what we can do and why aren’t we doing it when polls show 69 percent of Americans now oppose the war in Iraq.

The gist of it was that protesting doesn’t seem to work, writing to politicians doesn’t work so what do we do?

Maybe contemporary Americans are too complacent, maybe the media is now tightly controlled, but if you think the obstacles we face are any tougher than those facing the early abolitionists, the labor movement, even the civil rights movement, you need to study a little more history.

Maybe on this 9/11 anniversary we can all recommit to honoring the victims of this terrorist attack by finding new and more effective ways to defend American ideals.

I realize most of the people reading this probably already do much more than the average person, but maybe there’s still something more we can do. Maybe there’s a way we can reach out to new, currently less active, people.

Maybe we could do more to reach out to the people at large. Not only infiltrate your local Democratic Party, but lets reach out to everyone in our local communities. Join the Lions Club, go the the PTA meeting, stop by the Rotary Club pancake breakfast. We don’t have to cause a ruckus, but interact with the people of our communities and let them know that we are people just like them, and that we have ideas on how to stop this war.

There’s no magic pill that will cure all our ills overnight, but the sooner we get to the true grass roots of this country the sooner we’ll have an impact.

And maybe, just maybe, we’ll prevent the next generation’s Bush.

OT but for any music lovers, The Last Waltz is just starting on the FLIX channel on cable.

I find listening to music of my teenage and young adult years to be fairly renewing.

And with all due respect for Christy and her selflessness in live blogging, it beats the shit outta listening to a General lie and parse his words. :})

Liberty Lee, Who on the left is not committed to fighting terrorism?

Richmond at 39 — You are making me blush — but that came out in a rush of pique. I have spent way too many nights worrying about friends and family in harm’s way in Afghanistan and Iraq (twice now in Iraq, btw, because I had friends and family serving in the first Gulf War, too). I know what good planning looks like — and thorough diplomacy. And I know what a half-assed, ego-driven quagmire looks like as well.

And I don’t like seeing people that I love risk their lives in a mess that was poorly planned and even more poorly appreciated as a long-term commitment until well down the whack-a-mole road. We are spending the valuable lives of some incredible people — parents, local cops and firefighters who are in the reserves to make ends meet, incredibly gifted officers who have stayed in to fight a war with which they disagree to keep their units as safe as they possibly can…you name it, I’ve heard from a whole host of people caught in a very difficult, very painful bind. And all of their families are paying the ultimate penalty for it.

It’s easy to spout a bunch of patriotic slogans when your ass isn’t on the line. But when you’ve seen these families up close, jumping every time the phone rings or the doorbell goes, terrified that this will be that horrible moment for them…you understand the gravity of the decision to put them there. And the lack of real care and the wholesale failure to do preventative work on the front end but, instead, to rush to a war they wanted whether it was justified or not, becomes all the more infuriating.

We will all — democrats and republicans alike in our America — be paying a heavy, heavy price for this for generations. Whether we ultimately prevail militarily, the cost of this mess on our national reputation, the weakening of the military strength reputation on which we had been riding for decades during the Cold War and after…the wholesale loss of our moral and legal force because of the extra-legal activities of this Administration? It puts all of us at risk. Shame on them.

Solai @ 50

Liberty Lee, Who on the left is not committed to fighting terrorism?

Why are people engaging this jackass again?

Sen. Leahy, I would like you to ask Gen. Petreaus how IED’s has gone off in Basra since the British have pulled back their troops.

LibertyLee @ 5

On this 9/11, I really wish those on the Left would join with the rest of America to commit to fighting terrorism with all our National power: military, diplomatic, economic. Instead of “understanding” bin Laden, it’s time to destroy him and all of his ilk.

i wish those that have trouble thinking for themselves would stop iterating that drug addled gas bag limpbough, his greasy friend hannity, and his sexually deviant buddy o’reilly . . .

I don’t think we need to deeply understand bin laden… but we do need to understand what motivates killers and terrorists who believe that killing innocents is justified in some larger “struggle”.

We also need to look at what their “struggle” is about and see what we can do to deal with it. Truth be told, many revolutionaries have used “terrorist” tactics to fight what they believed was oppression. Not all were Gandhi’s or MLKs.

While I don’t condone the tacts of the Palestinian terrorists, I believe that the Palestinian people have been and are being horribly oppressed and abused by Israelis, Lebanese and Jordanians and almost every other nation in the ME. So the tactic is abhorrent, but their cause has merit.

This means that we can blunt the tactic if the underlying cause is removed. We can also blunt it by hunting down and killing those who use terrorism as a tactic to achieve a political end. Menachen Begin was a member of Shin Bet a admittedly terrorist organization which I believe want to blow up the King David Hotel in their struggle to get the British out of Palestine and establish the Jewish State.

If you read the Bin Laden statements, they make some valid points about getting the USA out of the ME. I agree with that… and so do many people in those countries who are not terrorists or supporters of terrorism.

it’s really not worth responding to the rant by liberty lee, imo. anyone who could write what s/he did is looking for a fight, and not being too intellectually honest about it in the bargain.
which, let’s face it, is what has happened to the country generally in these six years. 9/11, its horrific sadness, its indescribable valor, needs to be wrenched free of the disgusting manipulation and exploitation of it by those with other agendas.

dmg @ 56

it’s really not worth responding to the rant by liberty lee, imo. anyone who could write what s/he did is looking for a fight, and not being too intellectually honest about it in the bargain.
which, let’s face it, is what has happened to the country generally in these six years. 9/11, its horrific sadness, its indescribable valor, needs to be wrenched free of the disgusting manipulation and exploitation of it by those with other agendas.

ding

Christy Hardin Smith @ 35

Petraeus/Crocker Part Deux begins at 9:30 am ET on C-Span3. Am going to liveblog as much as I can for everyone…

since i don’t want to add extraneous comments to your live-blog, i’ll give this link now…

if anyone is wondering why the code pink protesters were extra upset yesterday, i recommend reading this dkos diary (and don’t miss the video).

LibertyLee @ 31

petwrecker @ 26

but, but,….

We NEED oil. We will continue to need oil for about 50 years. We can develop alternative sources while we are still consuming oil. But it doesn’t make any sense to P.O. the Saudi Royals who don’t like bin Laden–indeed are bin Laden’s key target–any more than it does to hurt Musharref…

did you mention Musharref? from the same essay…

Ultimately, the insider said, “Khan Labs.” At the time, our intelligence agencies were on the trail of Pakistan’s Dr. Strangelove, A.Q. Khan, who built Pakistan’s bomb and was selling its secrets to the Libyans. But once Bush and Condoleeza Rice’s team took over, the source told us, agents were forced to let a hot trail go cold. Specifically, there were limits on tracing the Saudi money behind this “Islamic bomb.”

A few days before 911 I was walking up Mercer with a good view down towards the Towers and a kid next to me said to his father “look Dad a blue castle”. I turned to look and on that day from that vista the towers did look like a blue castle. I remember the Twin Towers as a blue castle rather than the way some days later as I watched them burn and fall. Lee@5 represents the extremes we drift from an age of positive imagination where blue castles are not shrouded by prejudice and contempt and very deep lack of respect.

raven @ 57

dmg @ 56

it’s really not worth responding to the rant by liberty lee, imo. anyone who could write what s/he did is looking for a fight, and not being too intellectually honest about it in the bargain.
which, let’s face it, is what has happened to the country generally in these six years. 9/11, its horrific sadness, its indescribable valor, needs to be wrenched free of the disgusting manipulation and exploitation of it by those with other agendas.

ding

dong!

TexBetsy @ 38

what beautiful words egregious. beautiful ideas from a beautiful soul.

Thank you TexBetsy. We all need each other.

Good morning from L.A. Always wake up early on this date, like many of you, to remember the friends who never came home. Rest in peace:

Mozart Requiem: Lacrymosa & Domine Jesu

I think people who are “right thinking” would be refusing to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq or in many other “theaters” of the USA fight against “terrorism”.

We need soldiers to refuse unlawful orders and we need them to do it in large enough number to send a message to the military. We fight ONLY JUST WARS. END OF STORY. No more wars for profit.

Peace

Six years later, and we live under more security and regulation than ever before. And I don’t feel any safer today than I did on that day in a classroom with scared kids

We’re occupying and fighting in a country that has become a breeding ground for the very type of people who attacked us on September 11 — but it is very important to remember that when we entered Iraq, the actual people who attacked us had no connection there. Al Qaida has since moved in to take advantage of the power vacuum we created when we ousted Saddam Hussein. So, since September 11, we attacked a country that had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks of September 11, and created haven for the terrorists who did attack us.

LibertyLee @ 23

Christy Hardin Smith @ 19

Lee at 5 — Well, that would be a great thing, if the Bush Administration and the GOP would actually commit to fighting intelligently and without destroying the fabric of the rule of law and our nation’s values in the process. [snip]
Isn’t it time that both sides of the aisle stood up and said “how can we do this better? What is it that we need to change to make more intelligent and critically necessary tactical and diplomatic moves which will strengthen our hand instead of continuing to weaken it?” You know, actually doing the work…[snip]

I think military power is a key aspect in this war. I read the Osama manifesto Friday three times. He plays on our disunity. I’m not playing the “blame game” right now. I just want the Unity we all felt after 9/11 to go after these abominations on humanity and destroy them before they do to us what the Huns did to the Roman Empire.

Lee, that unity was squandered when Bush and Co used it to push several agenda items such as Iraq that had absolutely nothing to do with 911. Rather than being a unifying force the right has proven to be the most divisive force in the country. Opposing violations of national and international law should be what unifies us, instead it is labeled by those like you as divisive. A sad thing the right has become.

Scholars from many fields have weighed in on what happened on 911. It’s well worth some time over there.

http://911scholars.org/

Again Christy- right on!

On our efforts not being effective (Sufilizard). I disagree. Front page above the fold NYT piece today about the protesters at the Betrayus event. Boston Globe article on the fury being caused by the Moveon NYT ad. Both have hit raw nerves. Psych 1: Only when nerves have been hit can people be opened up in such a way that they can see the possibilities of different courses of action. Both actions were brilliant. With MSM owned by the military-industrial complex supporting the war, only these types of actions will get the anger (and rightness) of the opposition out into the public arena. And, as I mentioned yesterday, such moves are like an elastic band, they stretch the arena of discourse to the periphery enough so that those who want to appear more moderate (politicians) can have the room to move left. The right has done this for years through Limpballs, Savage and Coulter.

By the way I see (yet again) why Kerry lost. He has attacked the MoveOn ad as inappropriate. Good going there John. Like this war is appropriate and moral, like the killing and maiming of US soldiers and Iraqi citizens is moral and appropriate.

msg from RevDeb, who just called me and asked that i share this good news with you-all.

the philadelphia inquirer is reporting that scooter libby’s law license is being suspending in PA pending his appeal.

i went looking for a link… and here’s what i found:

Pa. Supreme Court may suspend Libby law license

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has taken steps to suspend the law license of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby Jr., the former White House aide convicted in March of lying and obstructing justice in a probe into the leak of a CIA operative’s identity.
The court issued a “rule to show cause” on Friday directing Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, to show why his license should not be temporarily suspended in the wake of his federal convictions. The order was posted on the court’s Web site yesterday.

The order was expected and Libby, 57, will be suspended from practicing law while his appeal is pending, Libby’s lawyer told the Associated Press yesterday.

President Bush commuted Libby’s 30-month jail sentence in July. Libby paid a $250,000 fine and must serve two years of probation. – AP

We live in an age of manipulation of facts. We need to get back to the truth badly.

Bush has been lying
Petreus lied
Crocker lied

All of the administration has been lying for 6 years.

The MSM is lying to you.

We need a deep dose of truth.

Selise at 59

Thanks for the link.

Not the first to say it, but YouTube makes for a whole new era.

Richmond @ 70 –

well said. thank you.

selise @ 71

msg from RevDeb, who just called me and asked that i share this good news with you-all.

the philadelphia inquirer is reporting that scooter libby’s law license is being suspending in PA pending his appeal.

i went looking for a link… and here’s what i found:

Pa. Supreme Court may suspend Libby law license

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has taken steps to suspend the law license of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby Jr., the former White House aide convicted in March of lying and obstructing justice in a probe into the leak of a CIA operative’s identity.
The court issued a “rule to show cause” on Friday directing Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, to show why his license should not be temporarily suspended in the wake of his federal convictions. The order was posted on the court’s Web site yesterday.

The order was expected and Libby, 57, will be suspended from practicing law while his appeal is pending, Libby’s lawyer told the Associated Press yesterday.

President Bush commuted Libby’s 30-month jail sentence in July. Libby paid a $250,000 fine and must serve two years of probation. – AP

I feel so bad for the Scooter!

I wrote this the day after the attack and find someplace to revisit each yaer…this year I revisit with my friends at the lake

this day in the middle of September ;

These are now the new days of the rest of our lives

We, from here forward, must join our brothers, and our sisters, around the world, in everyday anticipation, at what might happen, to those that we love, or care about, on this day, or tomorrow, or the next day.

Yes…I remember the day that Kennedy died…
And I remember the day that Martin Luther died…
And I remember all the days that loved ones…died

But this day…the day in the middle of September, will live in the marrow of my soul, all the waking, and sleeping moments, for the rest of my time.

Elliott @ 74

selise @ 71

msg from RevDeb, who just called me and asked that i share this good news with you-all.

the philadelphia inquirer is reporting that scooter libby’s law license is being suspending in PA pending his appeal.

i went looking for a link… and here’s what i found:

I feel so bad for the Scooter!

Not!

The anti war forces have been almost completely ineffective for the past 4 years as this atrocity has raged.

We have been failed by our leaders. We have been failed by the media.

And the death and destruction goes on… for nothing. One day peace will come and all the killing will have been in vain. It always is.

On 9/11/01, Mrs Peterr was 8 months pregnant. We woke up, turned on our bedroom TV set for the local news in SF, and the first words we heard were “a plane has crashed into the World Trade Center . . . we are switching to network coverage . . .”

There was something about watching this unfold while peering over the top of your wife’s pregnant belly, one hand feeling the movement inside, that reinforced for me yet again the preciousness of life and the notion “how fragile we are.”

Thanks, Christy.

selise @ 71

Richmond @ 70 –

well said. thank you.

:-) – you’re my hero!

Richmond at 70 — I talked with a Kerry staffer yesterday about that — and it seems that the reporter severely clipped the quote to make it look like there was more of a disagreement than there was. Kerry didn’t like the personal officer criticism, but thought the critique on Bush policy overall was spot on. It’s a “brothers in arms” sort of reaction which is very typical for Kerry — I think he mishandled it tactically, but the reporter manipulated the way it played publicly as well. And you should know that before you put all the blame in the Kerry basket on that one.

Critical reading skills are essential these days, sadly.

until the House gavels in around ten, the hearing is on CSPAN 1

SanderO @ 72

We live in an age of manipulation of facts. We need to get back to the truth badly.

Bush has been lying
Petreus lied
Crocker lied

All of the administration has been lying for 6 years.

The MSM is lying to you.

We need a deep dose of truth.

deep dose coming right up!

“Who are these Swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush? ….. They speak for all that is cruel and stupid and vicious in the American character…. I piss down the throats of these Nazis. And I am too old to worry about whether they like it or not. Fuck Them.”

“But wow! This goofy child president we have on our hands now. He is demonstrably a fool and a failure, and this is only the summer of ‘03. The American nation is in the worst condition I can remember in my lifetime, and our prospects for the immediate future are even worse. . . The Bush family must be very proud of themselves today, but I am not. Big Darkness, soon come. Take my word for it.”

“The utter collapse of this Profoundly criminal Bush conspiracy will come none too soon for people like me…. The massive plundering of the U.S. Treasury and all its resources has been almost on a scale that is criminally insane, and has literally destroyed the lives of millions of American people and American families. Exactly. You and me, sport— we are the ones who are going to suffer, and suffer massively. This is going to be just like the Book of Revelation said it was going to be— the end of the world as we knew it.”

Jonathan @ 73

Selise at 59

Thanks for the link.

Not the first to say it, but YouTube makes for a whole new era.

no kidding. pretty hard to say rev. yearwood was treated appropriately after watching the video.

As a prelude to more lies and justification for the war we never should have gotten in to, a quote from Luke 14: 31: “Or what king, going to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he senda an emassy and asks term of Peace.”
This was the lectionary reading for last Sunday.
The lesson was about the need to throughly prepare for anything that you are about to embark upon, that you might be able to complete the task with success.
Getting ready to push off to work, now.
Thank you Christy and All Firepups for helping me put this memoriable day into context and perspective.

I, for one, am all for Forgetting this bullshit.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 78

Richmond at 70 — I talked with a Kerry staffer yesterday about that — and it seems that the reporter severely clipped the quote to make it look like there was more of a disagreement than there was. Kerry didn’t like the personal officer criticism, but thought the critique on Bush policy overall was spot on. It’s a “brothers in arms” sort of reaction which is very typical for Kerry — I think he mishandled it tactically, but the reporter manipulated the way it played publicly as well. And you should know that before you put all the blame in the Kerry basket on that one.

Critical reading skills are essential these days, sadly.

I’m guilty then. However, Kerry’s staff should have then made a post-press comment (which I don’t think they have).

I admire his guts in coming out against the war. Yet he knows how the press works – and politics – and he has been historically ineffective in addressing some core issues because of his overlong and “measured” comments. Sometimes it is best not to say anything about something of this importance (other Dems have remained quiet). Or, as I have had to do in my arena when the press calls on controversial things, I make sure to put it in writing (email) or have them read it back to make sure I was quoted correctly. Kerry in short has had more than his fair share of this sort of thing, and he might try to be a bit more strategic and wary.

new live blog post upstairs

ACLU is asking us to write a letter to the editor:

We’re winning in the courts. And now, we have to win in Congress. Last week, two federal courts responded to ACLU lawsuits by powerfully asserting basic constitutional principles. They outright rejected the Bush administration’s abuses of power.

These two rulings were very clear about essential principles that you, the ACLU and the American people have been clear about all along. In America, no administration is above the law.

Now, we need Congress to act with the same clarity demonstrated in our courtroom victories. . . .

We need your help in urging a too-timid Congress to act decisively and without further delay. Start today by writing a letter to the editor demanding that Congress fix the FISA mess they created this August. It only takes a few minutes.

The legal victories you made possible are crucially important. Now, help us win equally essential victories in Congress.

Sincerely,

Anthony D. Romero
Executive Director
ACLU
P.S. In addition to sending a letter to the editor, I hope you’ll sign our “Don’t Fail Freedom” petition

SanderO @ 61

I think people who are “right thinking” would be refusing to fight in Afghanistan or Iraq or in many other “theaters” of the USA fight against “terrorism”.

We need soldiers to refuse unlawful orders and we need them to do it in large enough number to send a message to the military. We fight ONLY JUST WARS. END OF STORY. No more wars for profit.

Well said.

Christy is opening this morning’s live blog for the Senate Petraeus hearings. Please stay ontopic and limit the one-liners, thanks. Of course you are welcome to stay in this thread to talk about other matters.

The Petraeus/Crocker Show: Day 2, Part I

SanderO @ 72

We live in an age of manipulation of facts. We need to get back to the truth badly.

Bush has been lying
Petreus lied
Crocker lied

All of the administration has been lying for 6 years.

The MSM is lying to you.

We need a deep dose of truth.

Listened to joe and Frank Rich this morning, both essentially saying well, maybe the MSM didn’t do such a good job of questioning going to war in Iraq but, boy, howdy! they’ve learned their lesson. Exactly what I would expect from js but not Rich. Don’t break an arm patting yourselves on the back, boys!

Deaf, dumb and blind, the whole lot of ‘em……Dog bless the clear-sighted KO – whose voice (and ratings) just get better and better.

The quote that best sums up yesterday’s mortifying spectacle was from the ironically named Patrick McHenry (R-VA) who, completely unironically, said: “Let’s let the generals in the field dictate.”

Dana Milbank also had exactly the right analogy and — what’s not always the case — exactly the right dissmissive, ascerbic tone for these flunkies.

When out on th Reservation in far away Arizona it was surprising to be effected immediately by 9/11. i was traelling at 6:30 am to set up for a meeting the next day when listening to NPR and finally making sense of it after 15 minutes. There were 2 people flying in from out of state, one from Boston and the other from Washington DC. It took most of the day to find out that neither had been on those flights.

I have had 2 nephews who have or are serving since 9/11, both Afghanistan and Iraq. When I hear LibertyLee going on how we aren’t unified with the Bush Administration in the war against the people who committed 9/11, I can only think he is cherry picking what gets written in this blog. Bush made Iraq an issue and most of our deaths have occurred there.

Thankfully medical response and treatment is improved over what was available since Vietnam because our casualties would likely be much higher, maybe twice as high.

chirsty, have our congress critters and media matters been given links to study and referance like larry johnson’s think progress here, and here among many others?

Richmond @ 68

Again Christy- right on!

On our efforts not being effective (Sufilizard). I disagree. Front page above the fold NYT piece today about the protesters at the Betrayus event. Boston Globe article on the fury being caused by the Moveon NYT ad. Both have hit raw nerves. Psych 1: Only when nerves have been hit can people be opened up in such a way that they can see the possibilities of different courses of action. Both actions were brilliant. With MSM owned by the military-industrial complex supporting the war, only these types of actions will get the anger (and rightness) of the opposition out into the public arena. And, as I mentioned yesterday, such moves are like an elastic band, they stretch the arena of discourse to the periphery enough so that those who want to appear more moderate (politicians) can have the room to move left. The right has done this for years through Limpballs, Savage and Coulter.

By the way I see (yet again) why Kerry lost. He has attacked the MoveOn ad as inappropriate. Good going there John. Like this war is appropriate and moral, like the killing and maiming of US soldiers and Iraqi citizens is moral and appropriate.

I think I largely agree with you, in my post you referenced, I was referring to what the feelings were in the Common Dreams discussion, although I think the point that we’ve so far been largely ineffective could be argued. I’m not saying I completely agree with that view. And I certainly wouldn’t discourage anyone from continuing those tactics.

I was just suggesting that perhaps we should “expand” our thinking in how to promote the kind of change we would like to see.

I’m not accusing anyone here of this, but I think too many people on the left need to take off their roves and step out of the choir box. We need to not just associate with our drinking liberally buddies or our local DFA groups, but we need to get out and interact with the general public in a non-confrontational way.

If these people know you on a personal level it will be harder for them to rationalize you as just some leftist nutcase when they see you being arrested on the news — or they see you out protesting.

I’m suggesting a way to magnify the impact our actions have.

But I do agree with your reasoning that the “extremists” stretch out the continuum giving room for the so-called moderates to gradually move left.

I also wanted to point out that we can’t let an honest assessment of our obstacles become excuses. That’s why I brought up some of the other major justice movements from our history. Protesters and agitators didn’t just get arrested, many people actually died fighting for their causes.

Justice is always an uphill battle. But it’s also always worth it.

Richmond @ 87

Christy Hardin Smith @ 78

Richmond at 70 — I talked with a Kerry staffer yesterday about that — and it seems that the reporter severely clipped the quote to make it look like there was more of a disagreement than there was. Kerry didn’t like the personal officer criticism, but

thought the critique on Bush policy overall was spot on. It’s a “brothers in arms” sort of reaction which is very typical for Kerry — I think he mishandled it tactically, but the reporter manipulated the way it played publicly as well. And you should know that before you put all the blame in the Kerry basket on that one.

Critical reading skills are essential these days, sadly.

I’m guilty then. However, Kerry’s staff should have then made a post-press comment (which I don’t think they have).

I admire his guts in coming out against the war. Yet he knows how the press works – and politics – and he has been historically ineffective in addressing some core issues because of his overlong and “measured” comments. Sometimes it is best not to say anything about something of this importance (other Dems have remained quiet). Or, as I have had to do in my arena when the press calls on controversial things, I make sure to put it in writing (email) or have them read it back to make sure I was quoted correctly. Kerry in short has had more than his fair share of this sort of thing, and he might try to be a bit more strategic and wary.

No, you were right the first time. Isn’t this the third or fourth time in as many weeks the nuanced quotes of Democratic leaders have been “taken out of context” about Iraq. What is so refreshing — if that’s the right word for such an unambiguous provocation — about the MoveOn ad is that it is accusatory, doesn’t beg to be twisted out of context and, to boot, gets a lot of attention. I find defending Kerry, whose 2004 platform was to do the war, but with “a plan”, a waste of breath, and to say a Democrat’s coming out against the war “takes guts” is setting the bar low.

very interesting dkos diary by Jeffrey Feldman, “Frameshop: How Right-Wing Lie About MoveOn Ad Became The Story“

selise @ 98

very interesting dkos diary by Jeffrey Feldman, “Frameshop: How Right-Wing Lie About MoveOn Ad Became The Story“

I have to disagree with this one. The word “betray” has the same root as “traitor” and every makes the association. There’s no getting around the fact the ad was provocative. Bravo, MoveOn. Dick Durbin might be willing to fill the well of the Senate with his tears when confronted on an apt and pointed comparison, but not these people, thankfully.

brendan @ 98

selise @ 98

very interesting dkos diary by Jeffrey Feldman, “Frameshop: How Right-Wing Lie About MoveOn Ad Became The Story“

I have to disagree with this one. The word “betray” has the same root as “traitor” and every makes the association. There’s no getting around the fact the ad was provocative. Bravo, MoveOn. Dick Durbin might be willing to fill the well of the Senate with his tears when confronted on an apt and pointed comparison, but not these people, thankfully.

well, i don’t think “betray” means the same thing as “traitor”.

that said, i do think “betray” is provocative. strongly and appropropriately porvocative, imo. well done MoveOn!

LL@23
You don’t need a reincarnation of the Huns in OBL/AQ to destroy your imperial agenda – homegrown rightwing loons have done that extremely well to date.

Listening to some of the GOP members, they are still coming out with all the baloney that the rest of the world regards as so thoroughly debunked that it struck me as a mindblowing timewarp.

It is very possible that there will be a Dem in the WH in 2009. What happens between now and then? and also for the four years to 2012? Bush will veto all attempts to start troop withdrawals even as that coalition of the willing does its chesire cat act. Dems will not push the issue because they cannot override his veto. The eventual withdrawal will happen, Iran or no Iran.

Iraq will see a lot more violence as Shias continue to cleanse Baghdad and surrounds of Sunnis, Kurds fight it out with Arabs and Turkmen for control of Kirkuk, Iran trained Badr militias and homegrown Dawa and Mahdi militias fight it out in Basra and the south and the Sunnis in Anbar and surrounds fight among themselves and against Shia Badr, Dawa and Mahdi militias. US occupation started it by creating a power vacuum, its continuation will not have any impact on the violence that is to come.

The next POTUS and the Congress will have a recession with inflation at home (stagflation) and that is the surest prescription for an one term Presidency and a GOP comeback. I don’t like the look of this.

selise:

They’re almost exactly the same thing. What does a “traitor” do? Does he “trait”? No, he “betrays”.

I actually think it’s going too far, believe it or not. But that’s water under the bridge and, fuck it, better too far than not far enough.

brendan @ 101

selise:

They’re almost exactly the same thing. What does a “traitor” do? Does he “trait”? No, he “betrays”.

I actually think it’s going too far, believe it or not. But that’s water under the bridge and, fuck it, better too far than not far enough.

well, i don’t claim to know what is correct here… but i think of it as a venn diagram, with traitor as a subset of betray.

traitors have all betrayed someone, but someone who betrays is not necessarily a traitor.

does everyone else see the venn diagrams as exactly overlapping?

selise:

You remind me of Lisa Simpson here (she loves Venn diagrams) ;-)

brendan @ 103

selise:

You remind me of Lisa Simpson here (she loves Venn diagrams) ;-)

thank you. i think.

i have watched exactly one episode of the the simpsons. it was the one where lisa stayed in a tree in an effort to save a forest. thought that was pretty cool and that the show was hilarious.

brendan @ 93

The quote that best sums up yesterday’s mortifying spectacle was from the ironically named Patrick McHenry (R-VA) who, completely unironically, said: “Let’s let the generals in the field dictate.”

[snip]

Wish McHenry *were* from VA……unfortunately, we in NC are burdened with the miserable POS.

Of course it’s a compliment, an unambiguous one.

Yesterday’s charade, and its hero, reminded me of Krugman’s 2003 column on the cod-piece, where he compares Bush to Boulanger:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/050703G.shtml

Quite a lot of talk about the threat of cyberspace from Petraeus.

LibertyLee @ 23

….I just want the Unity we all felt after 9/11 to go after these abominations on humanity and destroy them before they do to us what the Huns did to the Roman Empire.

Teh stupid, it burns!

The Huns lived next to the Roman Empire, their military technology was in some ways superior, and there were a lot of them. Just how are the “Islamofascist” hordes going to overrun the United States, or even Europe?

You need to remember what Lincoln said:

Theirs was the task (and nobly they performed it) to possess themselves, and through themselves us, of this goodly land, and to rear upon its hills and valleys a political edifice of liberty and equal rights; ’tis ours only to transmit these,–the former unprofaned by the foot of the invader; the latter undecayed by lapse of time. This, our duty to ourselves and to our posterity, and love for our species in general, imperatively require us to perform.

How, then, shall we perform it? At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step across the ocean and crush us at a blow? Never. All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not, by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years.

At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reaches us, it must spring up among us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.

There is even now something of ill omen among us. I mean the increasing disregard for law which pervades the country; the growing disposition to substitute wild and furious passions in lieu of the sober judgment of courts; and the worse than savage mobs for the executive ministers of justice. This disposition is awfully fearful in any community; and that it now exists in ours, though grating to our feelings to admit, it would be a violation of truth and an insult to our intelligence to deny. (source)

Christy, thanks for the weeping session. Sting does that to me anyway – he has such a deep understanding of and compassion for human nature and the horrors we inflict upon one another, the pain we feel – and he makes me weep for the lost souls, our lost opportunities and what we as a nation have become.

Namaste, everyone. From the bottom of my heart to the bottom of yours, I love you all.

Funny, but are you missing the big picture (or more correctly, the extremely small picture)? Experiencing the seemingly separateness of things, say Sting,(or even Bush himself) and yourself, the viewer, as two different entities is deceptive, when in fact we and everything in the universe are all a bunch of swirling tornados of molecules and atoms, and, if you really want to get down, quarks and their various attracting/repelling strong/weak forces, running into each other and giving the false reading of separate “things”, keeping in mind that none of this would be possible if it weren’t for the uncertainty principle which forced the relative ordered and unified Big Bang to fly apart and then coalesce into the objects we see today, you know, galaxies, stars, planets, people, and pints of lager. It’s the third law of thermodynamics and you just can’t drive around it, nor does it respond to “WTF!”! Instead of everything everywhere flying apart at faster and faster rates of speed, just like you would assume when a uniform singularity like the universe before the big bang would be like, as it would result in a “uniform” explosion, the assumption is that there would be no anomalies to slow down enough that their gravity would instead cause random sections to collapse within themselves and form “things”. But I’m getting way ahead of myself here. We’re all illusory parts off the same thing. And some of those parts have a fake Texas accent and are criminally stupid. And so can babble on (Babylon?) incessantly and confuse at even greater levels.

I’m sorry, but what is there to reflect upon in regard to what happened on 9-11? We didn’t lose more than 37-hundred people with another 30-thousand broken, maimed and wounded.

It was an act of political terrorism, but what, after all this time, has changed? We still get our oil from the nation that spawned these terrorists. We still act — on a national level — as if there are parts of the world that are our property to do with as we please. We still have thousands of Muslims world wide who wish to do us harm, and that cohort grows every day we are in Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

Those who were murdered on 9-11 are not coming back, and as much as a tragedy that is for the relatives, friends and loved ones, it pales in comparison to the thousands of deaths we witness in this country every year due to gun violence and traffic collisions.

9-11 and its aftermath were a concern for me right up until the time some genius decided that the victims’ families should be compensated for their loss and our craven political leadership decided it was in my best interest to surrender — without my consent — the freedoms I enjoy (and have defended) as a citizen, with the passage of the odious Patriot Act.

The only thing that has changed is that we now have an international debacle on our hands, we’ve created a barbaric situation in Iraq and our leaders are a-hankerin’ for war with Iran, and I’m supposed to reflect on 9-11?

The only thing that changed on 9-11 is that our political leadership gave this dry-drunk cokehead the ability to destroy my nation from within, without a damn bit of help from Osama, Al Zarqawi or any other radical Muslim who wants us all to live in the 7th century.

The douche-bag writer C.S. Lewis viewed quantum mechanics as incomplete, because notions of indeterminism did not agree with his religious beliefs. Fag! Lewis, a professor of English, was of the opinion that the Heisenberg uncertainty principle was more of an knowledge limitation than an indication of existence indeterminacy, and in this respect believed similarly to many advocates of hidden variables theories. The Bohr-Einstein debates provide a vibrant critique of the Copenhagen Interpretation from an epistemological point of view.

The Everett many-worlds interpretation, formulated in 1956, holds that all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a “multiverse” composed of mostly independent parallel universes and stuff. This is not accomplished by introducing some new axiom to quantum mechanics, but on the contrary by removing the maxim of the collapse of the wave container: All the possible consistent states of the measured system and the measuring apparatus (including the observer) are present in a real physical quantum superposition. (Such a superposition of consistent state combinations of different systems is called an entangled state – see Virginia, Chuck’s mom, etc..) While the multiverse is “caused” by something and we have no free will, we perceive non-deterministic behavior governed by probabilities (or dumb fucking luck, if you’re Bob), because we can observe only the universe, i.e. the consistent state contribution to the mentioned superposition, we inhabit. Everett’s interpretation is perfectly consistent with John Bell’s experiments and makes them intuitively understandable, even if I’m not. However, according to the theory of quantum decoherence, the parallel universes will never be accessible for us, making them, like Britney Spears, physically meaningless. This inaccessibility can be understood as follows: once a measurement is done, the measured system becomes entangled with both the physicist who measured it and a huge number of other particles, some of which are photons flying away towards the other end of the universe; in order to prove that the wave function did not collapse one would have to bring all these particles back and measure them again, together with the system that was measured originally. This is completely impractical, but even if one can theoretically do this, it would destroy any evidence that the original measurement took place (including the physicist’s memory), so we’re fucked!

Tessa Souter’s version of Fragile. I think this is an amazing version of this song. I had no idea that Sting wrote it until I looked on the CD.

LL says there is a logic we write, but LL doesn’t arrive at the same conclusions. Perhaps I can clarify how our logic connects to “our” conclusions by responding to several of your posts in this thread. Anyway, I’m going to try, despite the somewhat flaky reputation of LL.

LibertyLee @ 23

I think military power is a key aspect in this war.

Power must be used wisely. So far we’ve seen it wasted.

Our conclusion is our leaders are either wasting it intentionally or they’re stupid and they should be removed.

What other conclusion could we draw?

He [Osama] plays on our disunity.

If he was behind the 9/11 attacks, then it was sheer violence he employed. Everything since then has been hot air that hasn’t hurt us.

I agree we are experiencing great disunity in the political sphere. But, I don’t see ObL having anything to do with it. It’s a political fight going back a long way and based on some fundamental disagreements about power sharing.

… I just want the Unity we all felt after 9/11 to go after these abominations on humanity and destroy them before they do to us what the Huns did to the Roman Empire.

It was the crazy (and illegal) idea of George W. Bush to switch our military from Afghanistan to Iraq which has split American support.

Our conclusion is that he’s incompetent and/or criminal and should be removed.

Do you disagree that an incompetent or criminal leader should be removed?

Ask HIM why he is destroying our Unity!

I believe we need to review 9/11 very very carefully in order to really feel certain we know what happened and who, in fact, is our enemy. There are a lot of questions and some very iffy answers.

I conclude that if you don’t know who your enemy is then everyone you kill is an act of murder.

Are you okay with that?

We’re not okay with murdering and that’s why we want to stop the war in Iraq, aside from the sheer waste of resources and lives.

LibertyLee @ 31

petwrecker @ 26

but, but,….

We NEED oil. We will continue to need oil for about 50 years. We can develop alternative sources while we are still consuming oil. But it doesn’t make any sense to P.O. the Saudi Royals who don’t like bin Laden–indeed are bin Laden’s key target–any more than it does to hurt Musharref…

We began to work on alternative fuels in the 1970s, but the Reagan administration killed those efforts in the early 1980s. If we depend upon the Republicans we’ll never get those alternative fuel sources. After all, they’re oil men (Cheney & Bush).

Are you okay with fighting endless wars to get oil when we aren’t really investing anything in securing an alternative?

If you agree, then why would you support Bush & Co?

LibertyLee @ 44

selise @ 29

no one objects to going after terrorists (well, except the terrorists). i wish we would actually go after them – doesn’t look to me as though bushco is serious about that though.

There is no established evidence except from the Terrorists (or their Fifth Column supporters) that the United States has participated in terrorism.

I suppose that depends upon you feel about our occupation and killing of innocents every day in Iraq. Is it terrorism or something else?

We have been fighting the enemy.

In Iraq it’s been said there are no more than 1500 Al Qaeda types. We have 160,000 troops. Why can’t we defeat them after 5 years? why are we involved at all with the other groups in Iraq? Mostly I’ve heard, including from John Kerry in 2004, that our plan now is to quell violence so Democracy can take hold (the “political solution”). But, then, once in a while we hear about ‘fighting the enemy’. Are we there to fight Al Qaeda types or just to waste military resources and lives?

If you have leaders (political or military) who don’t know the objective and continue to waste resources and lives without any measurable gain, then aren’t they incompetent and/or criminal?

What other conclusion could we come to?

If someone constructively has a better solution for FIGHTING the enemy I have yet to hear it from the Left.

Maybe you’ve heard the words, but haven’t realized that pulling out of Iraq would free us to go anywhere else we found the enemy.

We don’t see much enemy in Iraq and we don’t see our military going after them, so we conclude Iraq isn’t the place to fight. Then, add on top of that, the recent reports show Al Qaeda at pre-9/11 strengths and Iraq seems to be losing the larger war.

What other conclusion could we draw except that we need to leave Iraq if we’re to ever WIN the Global War.

What I am pleading for on this 9/11–before the Election–is to stop the sniping against “Bushco” so we can all work together to FIX the problem of bin Laden and his Islamo-Fascist supporters.

We’re not trying to ’snipe’ at Bush & Co, we concluded they’re incompetent and/or criminal, so we’re trying to remove them. We see them as an obstacle to solving a lot of our problems.

If you agree they’re incompetent and/or criminal, then how could you not want to remove them?

I still believe in my heart of hearts that the Left cannot be as negative against America as it sounds.

Stop associating our talk about Bush & Co with America. Dubya is not synonymous with America.

We love America and are trying to protect it from the incompetent and/or criminal Busy & Co.

If you were to see them as incompetent and/or criminal, then how could you not want to remove them?

Maybe I’m naive and my compatriots on the Far Right are more accurate about the motivations of you folks,

If you can see how we arrive at different conclusions, then there’s hope for you to think for yourself and begin to see some flaws in the way people on the Right label us.

but I keep reading Christy and Jane and down underneath it you all SOUND like thinking reasoning people. But where the rest of it comes from, I don’t know…

If you can’t see how our analysis of the situation leads to our conclusions, then God save ya. It’s all pretty simple.