I agree with Kevin Drum, who calls on “proponents of withdrawal to be honest about the likely aftermath of pulling out: an intensified civil war that will take the lives of tens of thousands and end in the installation, at least in the short-term, of an Iran-friendly theocracy.” It might not happen, but I think the risks are fairly high. I also think he may be right in saying that predictions of total catastophe by the “Chaos Hawks” are likely overblown, though I’m not as comfortable with the historical analogies.
Against the risks of these likely — but still uncertain — outcomes, Drum very succinctly and persuasively summarizes the risks of keeping substantial levels of US forces occupying Iraq with many of them engaged in combat operations:
The alternative is to babysit the civil war with American troops, spilling blood and treasure along the way, without truly affecting the course of events in any substantial measure.
[snip]
This means that it’s time for more sensible regional professionals to screw up their courage and tell the truth: pulling out won’t be pretty, but if it’s done prudently [emphasis mine] neither will it be Armageddon. The sooner we figure this out, the sooner we can leave Iraq.Until then, though, our foreign policy will continue to be held hostage to a senseless war that does us no good. Al-Qaeda will continue to recruit and grow, Afghanistan will slowly slip away, a shooting war with Iran will become more likely, our military will continue being stretched and drained, and our country will become less and less safe. And all for nothing.
Because I think the risks in that last paragraph are extremely high, and worse than the alternatives, I agree with a policy of planning a withdrawal. But what does it mean to say, “if it’s done prudently . . . “? And who would we trust to do the planning?
The last thing I would ever do is trust the Bush/Cheney regime to plan and manage this (or anything else having to do with America’s national security) and the American people seem to agree. So we’re talking about a planning process that, even if it began tomorrow, could be “imprudent” and reckless under the current regime; we really need to have trustworthy grownups in charge of this, and that means waiting until the current regime is gone and hoping the next national security team is substantially more responsible and less belligerent and reckless than the folks we have today.
The Democrats’ leading Presidential contenders have also been using terms like “prudent” when they describe their “withdrawal” plans. That’s not a problem in itself, but what if they interpreted withdrawing “prudently” to mean something like the proposals of the remaining experts from the Iraq Study Group:
In a report to be released today, a panel of experts assembled by the U.S. Institute of Peace calls for a 50 percent reduction in U.S. forces in Iraq within three years and a total withdrawal and handover of security to the Iraqi military in five years.
“The United States faces too many challenges around the world to continue its current level of effort in Iraq, or even the deployment that was in place before the surge,” the report says. “It is time to chart a clearer path forward.”
The panel includes many of the experts who advised the original Iraq Study Group, which issued its report last December. . . .
If this is how our current crop of foreign policy experts define what a “prudent” withdrawal looks like, then I don’t see any reason to expect the outcome for the next 3-5 years of “prudently withdrawing” to be much different from what Kevin Drum describes as the outcome of a policy of staying:
Until then, though, our foreign policy will continue to be held hostage to a senseless war that does us no good. Al-Qaeda will continue to recruit and grow, Afghanistan will slowly slip away, a shooting war with Iran will become more likely, our military will continue being stretched and drained, and our country will become less and less safe. And all for nothing.
Perhaps this is why George Packer, to whom The New Yorker gave the unenviable assignment of answering the question “How should we withdraw from Iraq” (Planning for Defeat, September 2007) systematically goes through all of the think tank withdrawal plans and finds all of them wanting for one reason or another. Packer winds up with a strategy that is barely distinguishable from staying for a few years or so, and even then assigns it no more than a small chance of success. This is how Packer ends:
. . . the “Sunni awakening” of tribes in western Iraq and the American decision to sell arms to Saudi Arabia, a Sunni country, have nudged the U.S. closer to the Sunni side. It may very well become American policy to keep Iraq’s Sunni Arabs strong enough to create a stalemate in the civil war and contain Iranian influence in the region. But, given that the war began in 2003 with the goal of bringing Iraq’s Shiite majority to power as the leading edge of a democratic transformation in the Middle East, this return to balance-of-power Realpolitik, with the Saudis as America’s most important allies, would represent the ultimate failure of the President’s project.
The war was born in the original sins of deceptive salesmanship, divisive politics, and wishful thinking about the aftermath. The bitterness of that history continues to undermine American interests in Iraq and the Middle East today. President Bush will have his victory at any cost, with one eye on his next Churchillian speech and the other on his place in history, leaving the implementation of his war policy to an Administration that works at cross purposes with itself, promising freedom and delivering rubble. The opposition is plainly eager to hang a defeat around his neck and move on from what it always regarded as Bush’s war. Before the U.S. can persuade the world to unite around a shared responsibility for Iraq, Americans will have to do it first. The problems created by the war will require solutions that don’t belong to a single political party or President: the rise of Iranian power, the emergence of Al Qaeda in Iraq, the radicalization of populations, the huge refugee crisis, the damage to a new generation of Iraqis who are growing up amid the unimaginable. Whenever this country decides that the bloody experience in Iraq requires the departure of American troops, complete disengagement will be neither desirable nor possible. We might want to be rid of Iraq, but Iraq won’t let it happen.
The Petreaus hearing should be starting early this afternoon, eastern time, and I’m wondering if these considerations will come up.
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‘alloooo…?
due’
CPSAN: Lieberman is a putz.
He said “no one could have imagined” 9/11 which we all know is a falsehood. There are even NORAD drill binders and presentations with a drawing of the twin towers with a target on them. So, yeah, we knew they were targets and we knew planes would be used at some point. Ask Colleen Rowley.
A Scarecrow Triple!
Caw Caw Caw!
The thing is at this point there is NO WAY ON GOD’S GREEN EARTH we will have any sort of US friendly regime in Iraq, unless we continue the occupation (which I wouldn’t consider a “US friendly” govt, either). So no matter what we do, we’re not going to generate any more good will. So that’s not an argument for staying, which will most certainly only generate MORE resentment.
Sorry…I know I’m preaching to the choir here.
Scarecrow,
Great post, as always. You are one terrific writer.
I agree completely with you re Lehrer.
Spent a year in the Nam too, BTW.
valletta @ 3
Five more effin’ years of Liarputz! How do we get him to change parties?!?!?
And who would we trust to do the planning?
I’d certainly like to see Wes Clark involved, if not in charge. Tommy Franks got the troops *in* efficiently, could he be of some use, especially given that he also saw what went wrong – and the weak spots – of that strategy?
petwrecker @ 7
The next President could make him an ambassador to somewhere innocuous.
petwrecker @ 7
Actually we did. He’s not Democratic, he’s Independent.
(Yeah, yeah, I know.)
jayt @ 8
Franks is another Petraeus type. The only thing Franks did right was call Feith, “the dumbest motherf-cker on the planet”.
I heard Kookie Roberts on NPR this morning saying libs call him Gen “Betrayus”.
A thing of beauty.
one car parts box, cut, painted, and placed along forty miles or so of hwy 101:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..plied.html
y’know, if more people did stuff like this, instead of just waiting for demonstrations once or twice a year, it might not end the war, or impeach Bush any sooner, but it’d at least look like we were trying.
petwrecker @ 7
Depends of the outcome of the 08 election. If we gain a few more seats(as is likely), simply strip him of all commitee assignments. Since he is in it for the power, he will most likely switch at that time.
ccmask @ 12
and truth!
For anyone who hasn’t seen tsf’s Late Late Sunday Night:
You might want to bookmark it for later reading of our resident spook’s observations concerning loose nukes in the US.
Just sayin’……………….
Elliott @ 9
any war-zone will do…
ccmask @ 12
Lovely indeed. If they lose the Beltway conventional wisdom, it is truly the beginning of the end.
scarlet p. @ 13
I’m in the Bay Area too and have made my signs, I just haven’t put them up yet. I plan on commemorating 9/11 by hanging my impeach signs :)
ccmask @ 12
Interesting (but not unexpected) that she would have to qualify it with, “The libs are saying…” She certainly wouldn’t want to sully her sterling career as an impartial reporter and point out that the viewpoint might be factual, or the reasons why someone might hold that opinion.
hope is not a plan, and i don’t see any dem presidential candidate giving us a reason to hope for a different, more responsible, foreign policy.
i don’t trust bushco to be able to withdraw “prudently”, but neither are they capable of continuing the war “prudently” – which at the minimum would mean no iran warmongering.
our choices are a fucked up occupation or, if we’re lucky, a fucked up withdrawal. i don’t think that our inability to prudently withdraw is an excuse to stay… or an excuse to wait for a democrat. especially if jayackroyd is right – that the Ds want to continue the occupation.
no ponies to be found here. yes, it’s a quagmire.
Morning gang. I just got back from reading a very interesting diary at Dkos that analyzes bin Laden’s latest communique. He comes across as a lot more sane than our dear leader. You can read it here. As someone in the comments said, “Refusing to understand your adversary is critical to losing every battle.”
The primary goal of the Iraqis is to get rid of every trace of the American occupation. As long as the Americans choose to stay, there will be violence. As with Americans, the Iraqis only know violence as the valid response to violence. If only they were more sophisticated than Americans. In many ways, they are, but not in the area of conflict resolution.
Be that as it may, the Americans must leave because they are there uninvited and are being advised to get lost, stat!
From CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/…..index.html
Just a reminder, for a pretty decent “back of the envelope” discussion of percentages of populations in the ME following various schools of Islam, please see:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21745.pdf
The most important sentence in the thing is:
“Shiite populations constitute a majority in Iran, Iraq, Bahrain, and Azerbaijan.”
Anything we do to arm, benefit, enrich, promote, etc. Sunni-supported groups in Iraq drives a wedge between our forces and Shi-ite populations. It does, however, fit in with the relationship the Bush family has with the Royal House of Saud and with their vision of “our national interest.” What we are doing over there does not work. We can’t have it both ways – we could never have a Shi’ite majority elected government and NOT end up with a Sunni-backed insurgency. Saudi Arabia would never allow there to be Shi’ite government on their northern border. They were plenty happy to allow Saddam Hussein to crouch there murdering his own population because a) it kep the lid on the Shia populations and b)he was their bulwark against Iraq. Check the map. This is like the whole Russia/Poland/Germany thing. This whole thing was doomed from the start – the Saudi’s would never have allowed this to work – that would have put two large Shia populations next to them. This whole thing has been a waste from the start – I would dare to say if you asked any Iraqi, even Shi’ites, if their lives are better NOW with Hussein and his sons gone, they would say definitely not.
Who feels safer with Lieberman as the chair for the SEnate Homeland Security Committee? This guy deferred during Vietnam based on having small children or some other BS and yet is more than willing to send other people to Iraq who have small children. This chickenhawk is more than willing to send other peoples children into an unecessary war yet does not encourage his own children to do so. What a creep what a bloody hypocrite he is.
On the Diane Rehm show they are discussing Pakistan. At 11 John Dean will be on her show.
Am unable to link from this computer.
Larry Korb et al have a rather complete and thoughtful report on the actual logistics of a drawdown at the Center for American Progress.
From the introduction:
ccmask @ 12
Apparently the MoveOn? ad someone was wondering about yesterday is to be found (full-page) in today’s NYT. Sorry no linky; just heard it mentioned on one of the so-called “news” shows. It’s what kookie is talkin’ about. *g*
Waccamaw @ 16
I read the Neiman Watchdog post and MilitaryTimes posts about this, too. As this is Constitution week, also the week for the USAF stand down, and the week for joint military emergency preparedness maneuvers a la 9/11/01, the rumor du jour is that a major multi-city false flag attack is in the works.
repeat from earlier this morning…. three showings of the Petraeus/Crocker dog and pony show today and tomorrow:
Monday, 12:30 pm – Joint Hearing of House Armed Services and Foreign Affairs
Tuesday, 9:30 am – Senate Committee on Foreign Relations
Tuesday, 2 pm – Senate Committee on Armed Services
for details and complete listing of this week’s congressional hearings – go here.
I don’t understand Arabs. I doubt any western mind does. Sunis and Shites have killed each other for centuries. It’s like Methodists and the Baptists having a bloody go for as long as there are Baptists and Methodists.
I suspect, even after all the killing brought on my our invasion, that after we leave things may settle down with the majority Shites taking over and joining Iran.
Our administration pursues a turn the screw policy much like a torturer who believes a bit more pain will do the trick. The Iraquis say “uncle”. We keep the oil and control whatever’s left. It is a cruel and heartless policy, unworthy of us.
Our only option is to get out as quickly as possible. Hopefully the Arabs will do something unArablike and make some sort of peace, but that is doubtful. Most likely lots more blood will be spilled. There is no point spilling more of ours when nothing can come of it.
The David and Ryan show?
Generals never acknowledge defeat.
This war is a sunk cost and
I refuse to listen to their fucking numbers
game and bullshit…
Admit defeat, move on….
scarecrow,
i haven’t read your post just yet. i just got finished reading your “letter to jim lehrer” and i wanted to congratulate you on saying just what needed to be said in a very powerful way. it was brilliant. now i’ll go read this one.
Hi, N=1 -
Lotsa people asking about you recently; good to see you home.
Think Progress cites a report that our newest military base in Iraq is to be FOUR miles from the Iranian border. No right minded country would stoop to claiming, of course, that that constitutes a hostile or provocative act. But I was just wondering which sons and daughters of this administration’s high flyers and our Congress Critters are going to volunteer for duty in that forward base? A little mustard with that human bait, Senator?
Packer
the ever so impartial passive voice won’t let it happen.
well what is person known as Iraq doing now?
Evicting the occupier.
Pull out now, in an orderly fashion, with a plan from the chain of command, salvaging as much equipment as possible…
or do it like Dunkirk in the Desert…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkirk
those ‘worst case’ fearmongers who advocate staying, or the Clinton/Obama triangulating fence-straddlers whose withdrawal plans are actually continued occupation plans never seem to dwell on the worst case outcomes of continued occupation… rout.
it’s what usually happens with megalomaniacal dictators who don’t listen to the truth from their militaries.
fahrender @ 33
It was brilliant and still is. It should be a spotlight highlight!
The recently dubbed “impotent” Osama Bin Laden is again showing how unimportant he is by capturing headlines.
Fox Noise running quote from Harry Reid under the caption:
“Attacking the General”.
-GSD
Waccamaw @ 34
Thanks. No home – just access for the moment to a hot spot.
no image up top for me . . . did something not load behind the scenes?
[Mod: refresh please]
oh – C-Span switched away from JoeLie’s hearing. Maybe it’s on C-Span3 – but I really don’t care.
Jan Schakowsky up on C-Span 1 pre-debunking Petraeus…
Good Morning all.
Thank you Mods. Still don’t know what happened, but very glad, indeed, to be able to get away from Ahhnold.
It may be hand-basket time, but in a significant way, ‘all is right (language!) with the world’ when I can actually experience FDL. Other liberal minds, functioning, so it is said, so differently from those with more rigid sensibilities. Free at last!
Waccamaw @ 28
Thanks
Ed Kunin @ 31
This is a fairly simplistic reduction. I mean you could say that Americans have been killing each other for hundreds of years and be similarly perplexed by the uncalled for bloodshed without explanation.
Many of the divisions have been sowed by the world powers and fostered along in a divide and conquer strategy.
-GSD
jayt @ 41
Here you go, or I should say go here
If you’re seeing different pics every five minutes, it’s because the mods and I are searching for something that doesn’t offend copyrights — No need to adjust your screen.
1. Make a sensible withdrawal plan (or as sensible as possible under the horrific circumstances) and GET OUT!!!
2. Pay Iraq reparations for the next fifty years, starting with the confiscated fortunes of war profiteers Bush and Cheney and the massive profits of the oil companies who installed said war profiteers to “defend” their interests.
3. GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OT-OT-OT
Here is the final draft of the Outcasting ritual:
I have finished the Cheney/Bush banishing ritual. Note this rite is freely adapted from the Outcasting rite in Mercedes Lackey’s novel, “Vows and Honor.”
If you are Pagan begin with casting your circle, other faiths do whatever you do for home prayer (a spell is a prayer).
Pagans invoke Themis, or other suitable deities.
Then take two candles (birthday candles will work), name them (one for Cheney the other for Bush) lighting them as you do so.
Then, addressing the candles (you can also place pictures of the perps on your altar if you can bear to look at them!), pronounce the names again:
“President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney:
Clergy say:
Oathbreakers, I name them, I who serve (deity’s name here).
Oathbreakers, they and all who stand by them;
Oathbreakers, once–by the promises they swore on the day they took office; Oathbreakers, twice–by allowing their followers to face justice for their crimes in their place; Oathbreakers, thrice–for their treatment of the soldiers who serve our county and those whom they have unjustly imprisoned.
Judges, lawyers, LEOs here’s your verse:
Oathbreakers, I name them, I who deal in Justice. Oathbreakers, once–by the violation of their sworn word; Oathbreakers, twice–by the perversion of powers granted to them for the common weal to their own ends; Oathbreakers, thrice–by the use of pain and death for naught but their and their followers profit.
Everyone else here’s your part:
Oathbreakers I name them, and all who support them, Oathbreakers, I do name them, who am the common man/woman of good will, making the third for Outcasting–
Oathbreakers once–by the lies of their tongues; Oathbreakers, twice–by their perversion of the government and the rape of our Constitution; Oathbreakers, thrice–for bringing war and destruction solely for their own profit, and failure to care for those harmed by the same.
All:
Oathbreaker is their name, and all oaths to them are null. Oathbreakers to clergy, Oathbreakers to lawgivers, Oathbreakers to the common citizens of this land.
Oathbreakers we find them: Oathbreakers in soul, Oathbreakers in power, Oathbreakers in duty.
Oathbreakers we brought them; Oathbreakers in thought, Oathbreakers in word, Oathbreakers in deed.
Oathbreakers they stand judged, and condemned–
Themis, Lady who sees clearly despite your blindfold,
Themis, who balances all deeds to ascertain if they are just or unjust,
Themis, Lady whose shining sword cuts through all that would obsure,
Deal with those who hold their oaths so cheap that they harm those who placed the government in their hands.
(Pick up the candles as you say each miscreant’s name)
George W. Bush and Richard Cheney – in Themis sight I name thee – Oathbreaker!
(Dash the candles, lit end first into a bowl of water or salt)
Pagans, close your circle. Everyone, once the spell is done dispose of the candles in running water or bury them in the earth far away from your dwelling.
After discussing this with fellow Pagans, I will be doing this ritual three times, at sunset tomorrow, again at midnight, and concurrently with the Solar Eclipse on Tuesday morning.
Here you go, or I should say go here
thanks, but I really cannot stand to watch JoeLie lie.
Plus, I gotta get to Court, to jail, to an interview, and do some research.
Anybody know how to change an LLC into a 501(c)3?
gotta run – keep ‘em honest, pups.
I couldn’t agree more!
Iraq is and will be a fustercluck whether we’re there or not. But our presence just adds fuel to the fire.
I am VERY concerned with the leading Dem candidates posturing belligerently against Iran, though. As was pointed out already, Iraq is a majority Shia country — which means if we REALLY want to promote Democracy, we have to accept the result of Iranian influence in Iraq.
Backing the Sunnis is how we got Saddam Hussein in the first place. If we go back to just installing another Hussein, then this whole fiasco will have been quite literally for nothing. Sacrificing all those lives and all that money to get right back to where we started. Nice plan.
And since we seem to be choosing sides between Iran and Saudi Arabia, we really need to remain cognizant of the fact that Bin Laden is Saudi, most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi and Al Qaida is a largely Saudi, sunni movement.
The wahabi sect of Islam; which is at least tolerated, if not actively promoted by the Saudi royal family; is the source of the most anti-American branch of terrorism.
Iran helps support terrorism too, we can’t be naive about that, however their primary support goes to groups like Hamas, that are more concerned with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and generally don’t have their sites set on striking inside the U.S.
So on a purely pragmatic level, it would seem Iran is clearly the “lesser evil” in the current geopolitical situation (from a U.S. perspective, which is of course the perspective that OUGHT to inform U.S. foreign policy.)
And quite frankly, I think Iran is our best hope for an ally in the region to help quell the sectarian violence in Iraq. Not perfect, mind you, but our best bet IMO.
EPU Comment here:
I understand the sentiment to withdraw suppport for Lehrer, but one doesn’t support just Lehrer, or Campbell for that matter, with a donation to PBS. Although I don’t post often, mine do seem to contain a common message. We all know that Rebuplicans have always hated NPR. They have tried repeatedly to withdraw funding for it and when that failed, due in no small part, to bloggers and grass-roots support, they have taken a different tactic. It is nothing newreally; In fact, the same tactic works for suppressing the vote: i.e. By alienating the supports of the organization, they weaken it.
The current cabal has used the same “trick” in all phases of its governance; they make government so bad, reasonable people won’t want it. They slime the election process so reasonable people will not want to either, be elected or even go to the polls.
Respectfully, I posit that what needs to happen is a check sent with a letter (maybe the same one you wrote) that makes it clear that it is written out of respect for the memory of the program that used to be and it could be today, if Lehrer would act like a journalist instead of a polite guy at a cocktail party.
johnSwifty @ 20
actually, some soldiers in Iraq are known to have said it….
fahrender @ 52
I could be wrong, but I first heard Punaise say it right here on FDL.
You can see the MoveOn ad at their website. I’m not crazy about it. Much more effective would have been some accurate graphs showing the truth about US casualities. I’d rather hit them with facts rather than name-call.
Every day of dithering costs us options, every day of delay increases the cost of military bankruptcy when we are finally willing to go thru with it.
The alternative to orderly withdrawal will be unmitagated disaster.
I suggest the ‘prudentists’ and ‘responsibly withdraw’ types should immediately book passage to Iraq. And see what they can do to help facilitate this purdent pull-out. If there were no oil and no money to be made by the MI complex in Iraq and Iran, does anyone really think we’d be in this mess? If the U.S. government was actually interested in peace in the Middle East, they would have been working tirelessly to solve the Palestinian-Israeli situation over the last seven years. Benign neglect has been the Bush policy toward this issue. Bah-humbug.
Pull out now.
N=1 -
“Home” meaning the Lake……not sure if “hot spot” refers to access to the toobz or a warm bed – hopefully, both and that you were able to make satisfactory arrangements for all your critters. (((((Holding you in my thoughts)))))
flags are going up in my town to commemorate the 9/11 anniversary, and the other night I watched the Nicholas Cage movie about the WTC collapse.
You know, in a strange way these fuckers have succeeded in connecting Iraq with 9/11. In my mind I can no longer separate the devastation that was suffered that day with the devastation these monsters wrought from it.
Scarecrow @ 46
Offend copyrights or offend sensibilities, it really doesn’t matter. The very idea of a continued involvement in an illegal military action is offensive. When Siun brought on the Iraqi doctor (Maryam?) to drive home the point that every American who allowed this administration to do the things they have done, in our name, is complicit with the horrors they have engaged in; well, that’s a bitter pill to swallow, but it is true. It offends, and it should.
How to stop the offense and move to defense? How to pull out? How to stop the insanity, those are questions that I would want better minds working on. This administration will never make the truly difficult decisions to end the involvement if it means “losing ground.” And losing ground is nothing but another way of saying, “losing profit.” It is sickening.
Brisingamen @ 48
well, it’s gotta work better than anything the Democrats are doing.
can’t stay long but in case this wasn’t brought up on this thread, over 70 percent of the Iraqi’s tell the world the “surge” made it worse in Iraq
heck offa job patreaus
We need a Surge Purge.
Most Iraqis want us out. Now.
Lloyd Doggett (D-TX) just had some PRIME words to say about Iraq on C-Span1. And he was the last speaker before adjournment for the day…….a fiery and appropriate ending.
epu’d Kelli Arena at it, too! They all get the talking points! On cue!
Oddmommy @60: *G* Doing the ritual doesn’t absolve anyone from doing the practical things as well. We will still need to call our Congresscritters…
It’s a case of the God(dess) helps those that help themselves. Spells and prayers only lend impetus to right action.
Alice @ 55
Like Dunkirk in the Desert.
That Anabasis article by Willian S. Lind is very valuable reading.
If anyone has relatives downrange in the quagmire, they should check out whether they have worst case plans, because..
Wonder what a true poll of the grunts on the ground in Iraq, about whether or not to stay, would say?
Just goes to show, if you’re going to paint yourself into a corner, you better hope you used fast drying paint and have a friend with a big fan.
To me, part of the point is the way the Iraqis perceive us. Essentially, since we promised them a better life than when Saddam was around, and gave them nothing but death and destruction, no matter how well intentioned, I don’t think many of them like us very much. In fact, I think most hate us. So we’re standing in their way, stirring the pot as we have been since we arrived, and keeping things boiling. I wonder if we were not such a ubiquitous presence, if violence wouldn’t drop down to a simmer. If we got our contractors out of there, Iraqis would be able to rebuild their own country and they’d have jobs to help provide them with the necessities of life. Instead, we seem to revel in keeping them dependent on us as sort of “charity cases.”
We treat Iraq as if it’s brand new, never been civilized before and we have to start from scratch and teach them everything. In fact, their civilization is older than ours. We have usurped their every effort to improve their own lot in life. It’s not as if they never had an army or police force before, either. So I ask again, why do we need to train them?
It is a constant irritant to me that when things go exactly as Murtha says they would, this administration wants to take credit, and mostly, they get away with it. Murtha said months ago, if we would get out of the way, the Iraqis themselves would “take care of” Al Quaeda. There was also a young captain that did a stick figure presentation on how to succeed, and it appears they finally tried some of his methods (although he died before he could see them implemented.) Let’s see what Petraeus says about all of this. I’d give you dimes to donuts that he’ll pat himself, the President’s excellent strategy, and US armed forces on the back for any successes they’ve experienced.
The General is a whore.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
No offense OKK, but that fact, and the fact that most Americans want us out, means nothing to the occupationists.
OT – Beware of Pakistan. The lid’s about to come off there as well. If ME chaos is the objective, ‘they’re’ succeeding. Grrrrr…
Waccamaw @ 57 – Thanks. None of the above. Just wondering (at FDL) as I wander, to paraphrase the old song.
petwrecker @ 65
Arena is a whore to the Shrub Misadministration.
Delay decision on Iraq cuts, Petraeus says
Troop cuts may begin in mid-December, with withdrawal of about 4,000
And about four thousand dead American soldiers kia in Iraq so far. Now that’s ‘balance’.
So calculate what another three years of occupation would be, and supply that to a UN transition force that could work on leaving institutions in place that would foster order?
We’ve not been doing that. We’ve built the infrustructure we need as occupiers and oil lords. We’ve fostered puppets and built castles for our own indefinite occupation.
The very least we should do is turn the situation over to honest brokers who can make the effort to stabilize the situation that we never did. Sure, it might not solve the political factionalism. But factionalism is fostered by need — education, electricity and running water are the best weapons we can muster against civil war.
Everyone’s saying this week is crucial for the Iraqi Occupation. We’ll see how truly crucial it really is…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 74
Withdrawal or rotation? You decide. Purge the Surge!
Marty Kaplan says:
Democrats will seize on the possible January withdrawal of one brigade of the surge as a bipartisan triumph, and their fear of being branded anti-troop and pro-terrorist by a bunch of chickenhawk demagogues will lead them to hail a non-binding non-deadline nonconditional footnote to the next defense appropriation as though they had drawn some heroic line in the sand.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
The ones that are left. With 1 million Iragi people killed during the sanctions and close to 1 million dead as a direct result of the invasion (according to the last Lancet report released) and with four million all ready displaced or refugees and 70,000 leaving a month. With a population of 25 million, how many will be left in Iraq in five years? Maybe this was the “cakewalk in Iraq” zealots plan. Provide and environment where the sectarian violence would be unleashed.
How else can you explain ignoring expert after expert before the invasion, the choice to send in a smaller force than recommended, disbanding the Iraqi army, allowing the Iraqi history museums to be looted, not immediately protecting the Iraqi borders, building a huge US enbassy, the continued stalling on the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group including the middle east conference on Iraq etc. etc.
It really looks like the quagmire is exactly what the radical “cakewalk in Iraq” nutcases wanted.
Re: Pakistan:
Musharaf made the wrong move by arresting Nawal Sharif and deporting him right back, defying the Pakistani Supreme Court ruling that Sharif and Benazir Bhutto be allowed to return. Yep: the sh*t’s gonna hit the fan over there in Pakistan, the so-called ally of the War on Terror. What a mess.
SufiLizard @ 50
Yes, we SHOULD engage Iran in an exchange of ideas, using diplomacy and behaving (talking about the USA) as a mature responsible member of the world community.
I suspect (and fear, no other word suffices) another type of ‘approach’ will be used, fully supported by the MSM AND the msd’s.
Scarecrow, bad as things are in Iraq today (I do not believe most of my fellow citizens can even imagine how BAD THINGS REALLY ARE) it is very likely that you will be delineating an even more pessimistic narrative when Boyo George next ‘Kicks ass!’ Tragedy upon tragedy.
Matthew Dowd says:
The public is waiting for leaders from both political parties to stand up to the president and say enough is enough. They would like this situation resolved — and soon — and there is no other solution acceptable to them other than bringing the troops home. The public will support leaders who would use funding decisions as a way to encourage and push the president to resolve this situation quickly.
The public does not see withdrawal from Iraq as a signal America doesn’t support the troops. In fact, the public sees removing the troops from harm’s way and having them in a place where the mission is supported, welcomed and understood as the most proper way to support our troops.
Wow. I just read through the conversation from Late, Late Night with Althe spook as suggested by someone upstream. Wow. If other spooks are reading this: Thank you for trying to keep us safe.
Biodun @ 76
I think this week is crucial for the blogosphere to ignore that red herring and get back to reporting on serious issues with governmental oversight and crimes and misdemeanors committed by this administration. The fact that the Petraeus debacle will be as worthless as it is predicted to be, and worse, should be noted and then moved passed.
If Petraeus does nothing other than distract from the crimes of this administration, then he has played the role of good solder to an adequate degree.
It would be foolish to follow the MSM down this avenue; in the school of red herring chasing shills, they cannot be beat.
The Iraqis are screwed, already.
They will continue to be screwed and many will die in the future.
This will happen no matter what anybody does. Only the way it happens remains to be decided.
The Bush plan is to change horses in midstream. This is his admission that the past four years have resulted in failure. More Iraqis will die because of this change.
There will be a huge power struggle when we leave Iraq. We can let it happen now or when the Democrats realize that what they are doing in 2011 isn’t gong to work any better than what is happening now and pull a Nixon.
IT is better that we pull out to Qatar or somewhere else close by and let the civil war rage. anything else will just be half-measures and hypocracy which will end up costing as many or more lives. the big difference is that it will take longer and prolong the suffering.
this i believe, devil’s advocate that i am.
Four words encapsulate this entire fatuous dog & pony show.
Same Time Next Year.
New Gallup Poll out on Iraq
23% of the gooperiest americans want troops to stay there in full force until things get better.
9% say to make modest reductions and then stand pat until things get better
39% say to do a timetable for gradual withdrawal
21% say get the hell out as soon as possible..
There is no majority position- but a plurality is in favor of a timetable for gradaul withdrawal…(Gallup)
Good Morning friends:
A bit OT, trying to catch up, but have forgotten to link this before. Mother Jones has an interesting article about Hillary’s faith connections in DC and I found it illuminating and revealing. While I am glad that HC has faith in something, I would feel much better if she was not meeting so frequently with the tightie-righties who are doing so much to decimate progressive causes. You know what they say, “the family that prays together…”
Sorry, scarecrow, just needed to get this done before I forgot again. Now to spend some time with your post.
OT–
Anyone hear anything lately about those poor miners buried alive in that Utah mine? MSM hyped it, gave that nutcase Murray some airtime, and then moved on. Where’s the call for investigations into accountablity for all those responsible, all the way up to BushCo? The story quickly evaporated in the quicksand of MSM soundbites du jour. Poor miners. God rest their souls.
rwcole @ 87
Yup.
47% of Iraqis want the US out now.
rwcole @ 87
“We didn’t get elected to be popular.”
- Dick Cheney
Zennurse!!
jayt @ 49
jayt,
Such a change would be treated for federal income tax purpopses as a transfer of the LLC’s assets to the 501(c)(3), which might cause tax problems.
I’ll be happy to provide details if you’d like.
interesting Tom Hayden essay…
T.H. quoting James Fallows
–snip–
–snip–
Tom Hayden via HUffPo
Scarecrow, that’s what makes this whole thing so horrifying.
There ARE no good solutions here — only those that are less bad than others — and even if there were, Bush and his cronies are not the ones we can trust to implement them.
Scarecrow, two great posts in a row.
Occupations are resisted simply because they are occupations.
We are not “winning” in Iraq for one basic reason: Our army is an occupying force. We Americans are foreigners in a devastated country that did not ask for (and is increasingly disillusioned by) our “help.” And our occupation is rendered all the less tenable because we are unable to explain convincingly to Iraqis why we invaded their land in the first place — and why we must remain there. No matter how many “insurgents” we kill, no matter how many doors we kick down in downtrodden Baghdad neighborhoods searching for the “enemy,” we cannot provide security (not to speak of democracy) to the local population because we cannot win over their hearts and minds due to the simple and brutal fact that we are occupiers.
US troops will keep on dying in Iraq until the last unit is withdrawn. White House and Corporate Media propaganda cannot change this one basic fact.
GSD @ 44
Arabs perplex me. I was in Israel about thirty five years ago. There was this Arab offering camel rides to tourists. The camel had a wire ring threaded through its nostrils with a rope attached. Every now and then the Arab yanked the rope to get the camel’s attention. Maybe camels are ornery and halters won’t do. I was surprised at the mindset that invented the nose ring. Totally outside anything I might dream of. I haven’t taken a survey of camels in Arab countries, so I have no statistics on nose rings vis a vie halters.
I also read the Delicate Prey, a collection of short stories by an Englishman whose name I forget who died recently. He lived in I think Morocco for years. The Arabs portrayed are cruel. The images remain with you.
Yes, I tend to think in terms of black and white. I don’t believe we or the world are that complex though we like to think we are. We have two choices in Iraq. We can stay or leave. If we stay what can we realistically hope to accomplish? Since we’ve given accomplishing something our best shot, that leaves leaving as the only viable option.
It is true western powers messed with the Arabs for more than a century. I don’t think that’s relevant to the issue of remain or leave.
kdh22 @ 73
The Shrub Maladministration is a bordello!
New thread by Christy.
fahrender @ 85
Pull out to Qatar! Devil’s advocate, indeed.
Toby Wollin says:@25
September 10th, 2007 at 7:26 am
Do you think they ever considered these things when they engaged this war based on lies.
Answer; Fuck no.
They have managed in one fell swoop to destroy lives and country, while at the same time destabilizing the whole middle east, a pandora’s box best left alone.
Fresh posty goodness, up and ready for the reading…
johnSwifty @ 84:
Agreed. MSM will give it a big play. Already saying the week is crucial. Cascades of empty talk and analysis by the “experts” and pundits, tying the testimonies and “recommendations” to the presidential race ‘08. And so on, and so on. I’m sick of the whole thing.
I don’t expect much to happen with the Iraq hearings- sound and fury signifying nothing I suppose.
At the end of the day- Bush will get the money- and the dems will retain a campaign issue.
That’s about it.
The real battle is to make sure that if dem wins the White House- the war gets ended within a year.
Jim S @ 97
I think a more extensive critique of Packer would examine the role of the occupation in making things worse, just because it’s an occupation. Another weakness is that his essay, while extremely valuable, suffers from the same illusion that the other withdrawal plans share — namely that US forces are inherently a force for good and will not behave badly — even though we have numerous examples of how discipline failed or rules of engagement were unclear or even destructive. The notion that an exhausted and frustrated occupying force will behave like the saints we expect them to be is ludicrous. None of us would behave that way in their boots. And finally, a further critique should really examine the companion assumption that American power is inherently a force for good in the world. It could be, maybe it once was, but few in the world believe that any more. This is the great disconnect between how the world see us now, after 7 years of Bush/Cheney, and how Americans still like to see themselves. This is Bush’s greatest/worst legacy.
Brisingamen @ 48
Is there anything we lay persons can do to boost the energy of your efforts?
skilly @ 51
Anyone in WETA’s home viewing area, the station the produces The NewsHour should certainly withold their money. Nothing else will teach them they can’t insult their contributors patriotism.
Jim S @ 97
And not only are we occupiers – we can’t even keep the lights on or drinkable water flowing. Brutal..AND incompetant.
It’s absurd to have this discussion while ignoring the oil resources that sit under the blood soaked streets. We must remember that we are ruled by delusional messianic oil patch idiots, and nothing can fundamentally change until 1.20.09.
In the narrow myopia of the fear mongering propagandists, all is black or white. Better to have their dead civilians in their streets, than ours in ours etc. Yeah ok, whatever.
Yet it seems that only voices like Michael Scheuer (Imperial Hubris) get it that our policies drive the regional hate.
So if we are the Progressives, let us begin to articulate the policy shifts that are going to have to happen anyway.
Doing this requires listing the realities, unspoken and falsely controversial.
1) Keeping Iraqi oil out of Shiite (Iranian) hands is essential to keeping that oil from flowing too easily to China. Failure to reduce the need for this oil or guarantee this massive remaining resource means an invasion of Venezuela. Oil is heroin for our economy and we are going to have it even if we have to kill for it. I think we’ve proven this. Even my blue state Senator recently sent me a reply letter stating that he’s for neutralizing Iran.
2) For much less than the cost of this war to date, we could have made vast improvements in other technologies to at least begin to stabilize our need for fossil fuels. I am not a proponent of nuclear power, but for this kind of money, we could have built all of the plants we need to replace the coal fired planet killers. Additionally, we could have implemented a secure plan for the transport of all spent fuel to the Yucca mountain repository.
3) Screw the fact that we are killing each other, we are raping the planet. Remember that the atmosphere is thinner relative to planet size than the apple skin is to the apple. Continuing to spew green house gases is insane. These gases continue to grow ant 2% a year, meaning 35% more 20 years from now. Bye-bye Greenland ice does mean bye-bye western civilization. It now appears that global warming has been mitigated by the particulates of smokestack effluents. Please see PBS’s NOVA – Dimming the Sun. We must stop burning everything in site to keep warm/cool, and make machines go round and round.
4) Our Republic needs to be recovered from the control of the multi-nationals. Fair trade must be redefined to encompass our labor laws and environmental regulations. I don’t care if the crap du jour at WalMart costs more, some of our manufacturing sector has to be repatriated if China won’t play fair. In the energy sector, did Enron in California teach us nothing?
Even George Carlin agrees that You’d have to be asleep to believe the America Dream.
Scarecrow,
Good post, thanks.
As for the Democrats, I guess they agree it would also be “prudent” to have a base on the border with Iran, to interdict smugglers or whatever:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20687880/
Drum is maddeningly obtuse, by the way, when he says:
“Until then, though, our foreign policy will continue to be held hostage to a senseless war that does us no good. Al-Qaeda will continue to recruit and grow, Afghanistan will slowly slip away, a shooting war with Iran will become more likely, our military will continue being stretched and drained, and our country will become less and less safe. And all for nothing.”
A “shooting war with Iran” is the aim of these people, and always was, so it’s hardly “doing no good” to keep our army around making that more likely.
Biodun @ 104
Yeah, it sickens. Tell people that. Expose the slight of hand and get that idea into the heads of those you communicate with. It is a small thing but I think it helps with the nausea. I clicked on the spotlight feature and sent a comment to Mr. Lehrer with regard to scarecrow’s previous post. It is a small thing, but it made me feel better and it made me want to do more.
With a little more gumption, I’ll take Christy’s advice and call my congressman again this afternoon. Of course, talking to the Jim Ramstad voice mailbox is an exercise in futility, but if no one ever gives him the impression that shilling for the administration isn’t representing the interests of his constituents, then I can’t really expect him to change — but I guess I don’t anyway. I’m trying to be more positive about that, but what really needs to happen is a grass roots effort to root him out.
1,594 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Scarecrow and the Firepup Patriots:
Thank you, brother Scarecrow, for your posts on Iraq and the politics of wars of occupation…best in the bloggosphere. At this point, as a fellow Vietnam vet I jest wanna suggest that there is no political strategy that can be implemented at this time to get us outta Iraq without first removin’ the existin’ administration thru impeachment. Since impeachment and removal is not possible within the next 10 months…the only political strategy open to us is to force the Democratic Party to coalesce around rescinding the war authorization and declaring by joint resolution a date certain for withdrawal of all combat and “security” forces.
This makes the Iraq War and the country’s opposition to our involvement the central campaign issue for all Democratic candidates and isolates all fascist candidates for reelection to any position above local dog catcher. By focusing on the dynamics WITHIN the Democratic Party, we set up a situation very similar to 1968 but with the advantage that the Democrats don’t have to wear the responsibility for the war and occupation around their silly little necks.
We aren’t gunna get the kids outta Iraq before 2009 but we can present a clear choice to the voting populous that the corporate fascists in either party can not finesse.
So my suggestion is for us to put the heat on the Democratic Party elected leadership and the candidates for nomination to make ending the war and removing ANY occupying force the central issue for the next three months. A battle that threatens to split the Democratic Party similar to 1968 can provide cover for Al Gore to step forward as a national unity candidate.
KEEP THE FAITH AND KEEP DOIN’ THE WORK…WE’RE COUNTIN’ ON YA!!!
zennurse @ 107
If you don’t feel comfortable reciting the “everyone” verse of the rite, just light a candle at the appropriate time.
Here’s the way it IS:
If we stay, the same shit that is happening now will continue at a low, continuous burn into the indefinite future. US soldiers will continue to die and be permanently maimed, thousands of Iraqis will die every month, and we will spend (waste) BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars month after month, year after year, with the ultimate end being us leaving and NOT being in control.
If we leave:
The same shit that is happening now will continue, in some areas at an intensified level…for a while. Thousands of Iraqis will die every month and NO US soldiers will die or be maimed every day. NO Billions and billions of dollars will be wasted in the sand of Iraq and we will not be in control.
So, what’s the difference? Basically the US soldier part and the money wasted part. Beyond that the end result is IDENTICAL. Sorry, I don’t see any good in keeping a raging, unstoppable fire (the Iraqi civil war) simply at a lower level of conflagration for a LONGER period of time vs letting the raging, unstoppable fire burn a bit fiercer but for a shorter period of time. The house STILL gets burned down but in one case, you pointlessly spent a LOT of money and lost a LOT of lives and still ended up with a burnt-down house vs a burnt-down house without the extra loss of lives and the explosive costs.
We cannot change the ultimate outcome. That is a fact. Since we cannot control the outcome, we are clearly not in control of the situation AT ALL.
One more point…the Iranian regime is, if left alone, on its last legs. The up-and-coming, pro-western youth of Iran are NOT interested in continuing the Mullah soft(ish) dictatorship. They are NOT interested in avoiding the happy trappings of western life. Leave Iran alone and in the near future, the “problem” of Iran will self-resolve. Thus, WHO CARES IF IRAQ GETS COZY WITH IRAN!? The result will NOT change because of this! The Mullah-driven Iran would STILL be on its last legs and the youth of Iran would STILL not be interested in perpetuating the whole thing. Iran is NOT a danger unless Bush and his fellow travelers in the Democrapic party MAKE it so.
Iraq IS lost. Period. It is not ours to mold or remold. Its oil is NOT ours to develop or take. Its land is NOT ours to build bases on. We have NO business, nor right, to dictate ANYTHING to the Iraqis (or anyone else for that matter).
The entire ME system is far out of equilibrium. Being thus it is inevitable that it WILL move towards equilibrium. We have no say in this equilibrium. We can merely delay, but NOT ultimately prevent, the equilibrium from being reached. That nature of that equilibrium is out of our hands. In fact, all we EVER do add catalyst to the reactions and ensure that it is broader or faster than it would be without our meddling.
Get out. Now. Period. After we are out, apologize to the people of Iraq and the world for our temporary insanity and then offer to pay reparations to Iraq and help them redevelop without military or corporate strings attached.
Praedor @ 115
I think your read of the situation is correct.
Morally, your last paragraph describes the ONLY sensible, mature AND serious response left us.
Well said.
I would like to throw out a few points that may already have been raised.
First and most importantly, we need to reclaim ownership of our Iraq policy, indeed our Middle East generally. By setting unreasonable goals and tying those to events on the ground, Bush has committed us to be in Iraq to the end of his Presidency. Even if the next President wants to get out, it will still take a year or so to plan and execute such a withdrawal. We need to get back in control of our policy. We can and should coordinate with the Iraqis during our departure but our decisions should not be based on whether they come through or not.
Two, nature hates a vacuum, and power even morre so. Our leaving will create power vacuums. It is these that will cause an exacerbation of the civil war and many deaths. Coordinating our withdrawal with the Iraqis as I mentioned above can partially mitigate these. But again our leaving should not be held hostage to whether or not groups on the ground act repsonsibly or not.
Third, getting out of Iraq does not mean removing ourselves or our forces from the Gulf. We can and should keep a presence there. Again power really hates a vacuum, and our leaving this area would promote not reduce instability. Also leaving Iraq would not mean severing all contacts with it. We should keep up economic, political, and yes, even military assistance to the Iraqi state or whichever side in the civil war we decide to back. I’m assuming despite Petraeus’ recent boneheaded dalliance with the Sunnis this will be the Shia. I say this because unlike Petraeus I do know how to count.
Third, we can also mitigate regional conflict. We should definitely push for an accommodation between the Kurds and the Turks. This is eminently doable and would eliminate the most likely source of an overt outside invasion by a neighbor. We can not control Iran’s influence in Iraq. We shouldn’t try. Iraq will always need the international community and by extension us to develop and move forward. These are things that Iran simply can’t do. Also although as a neighbor and a Shia majority state Iran will have a role in Iraq I would not overplay this. Whoever ends up in power in Baghdad is going to keep control of Iraq’s oil wealth for themselves. They are not going to give it away to Iran. Historically, there have been tensions and competition between Persian Iran and Arab Iraq. While the current American occupation and Iraq civil war have obscured these, they have not gone away and will reassert themselves in the future. Iraq will not become Iran’s toy although if Iranians played this smart they could end up with an ally. But this would unlikely be an exclusive relationship. The Middle East is a complex place and interests and allegiances usually split several ways.
Fourth, more of an afterthought, we have to make some serious decisions. We have to give up the notion of permanent bases in Iraq. This has been the stealth policy of this Administration whatever the more high visibility policy (surge, etc.) has been. We have also to give up the idea of a reduced American presence confined to going after “al Qaeda”, training Iraqi troops, and controlling the borders. These have been essentially our primary goals for the last 4 1/2 years and we have not been able to accomplish them with much higher troop numbers. We shall also have to come to a decision about arming Iraqi forces. One of the reasons that the Iraqi army is a joke is that it has no heavy weapons. When we leave, the Shia government most likely will be the party to acquire them and use them to enforce its authority. We can’t stop this. We could slow it down. We have to come to a decision if we want to.
Anyway these are just a few thoughts. I have fudged considerably on the issue of the civil war but it remains the central issue among Iraqis and it is something we can not avoid dealing with once we make the decision to leave.
Praedor Atrebates @ 115
This is what sticks in the craw of the Bush/Cheney cabal and the DINOs. They just cannot accept the concept and feelings of powerlessness. And that’s where they derive their last vestiges of influence and support from the public.
oregondave @ 118
As Juan Cole made so interestingly clear late last week with his comment about Napoleon’s invasion to “liberate” Egypt from tyrants who were working against the “security interests” of France…Napoleon got his ass kicked out of Egypt. I’m sure that stuck in his craw too.
Ah well. Tough shit though. Bush has repeated/is repeating almost down to the molecule, the debacle that was Napoleon’s invasion of Egypt…only in Iraq. Same words used (literally) to “justify” the invasion, same abuse of power when control couldn’t be gained, and ultimately, the very same leaving with tail between legs when it got to be too much for the French military to continue.
Bush:Napoleon. 200 years apart but practically no space between them.
rwcole @ 105
Why do you want the Iraq war ended within a year? Is that your priority if the Clintons are re-elected? There is absolutely no chance of that. What about revoking all the existing over the air television licenses and allowing for re-application? What about getting off fossil fuels in one year?
Wonderful moment with Patraeus…his microphone won’t work and protesters are being escorted out of the room.
Seems a fitting reflection of the empty words we can expect from the General…..
Elliott @ 9
Zimbabwe. He and Mugabe would get along famously.
Drum is wrong in my view. He is selling yet another rightist talking point. To believe that our leaving would kick off a civil war, you need to believe that we are actually preventing one by our presence. We aren’t. The civil war is already going on. We are just a party to it.
This thinking is horrible:
“One of the reasons that the Iraqi army is a joke is that it has no heavy weapons. When we leave, the Shia government most likely will be the party to acquire them and use them to enforce its authority. We can’t stop this. We could slow it down. We have to come to a decision if we want to.”
Give the (mostly Shia) army heavy weapons and you’ll get your bloodbath.
Maybe if we not pick on Iran so much our exit from Iraq could become less worrisome. I am much more worried about China’s grip on this country through our trade deficit which no one is talking about than Iran’s influence on Iraq. With globalization on the rise we should be finding ways to trade and invest in Iran, then we would not have to worry so much about gurantees of future oil supplies. I don’t believe that in the 21st century bullying works anymore. More and more countries are becoming richer and seems less dependent on the US , so they will find it easier to give us the back of their hand and we have to start understanding that.