The Petraeus/Crocker Show, Part IVBy: Christy Hardin Smith Monday September 10, 2007 11:58 am |
It’s “gimme more FUs day.” The Petraeus/Crocker Dog and Pony Show and WH-Written Talking Points show continues. Meanwhile we have a special guest — Rick Noriega — for a live discussion today, coming up shortly.
_______________________
Consider this a thread to discuss Petraeus/Crocker testimony.
Democracy Arsenal is running an ongoing fact check of the testimony. And do take a peek at this post from Swopa.
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ZED
Free speech!
Betrayus and crock of bulls%^t
I had a shot at zed
zip?
The surge is working…!!!
zed?
Thanks Christy.
siete..
Adie:
Did you see my question at the bottom of the last thread?
Live blogging from 2:30 – 3:00 is available in the comments of the previous thread starting with comment # 97 and includes the following 14 parts, since I learned the hard way to save before the long sections vanish:
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven Eight Nine Ten Eleven Twelve Thirteen Fourteen
Biodun @ 9
Yep. Thanks. In fact, answer is right under it;->
Democracy Arsenal has been opened in another window since John Aravois gave us the link.
There has to be at some point a plan for the Iraqis citizens who are vulnerable to attack when the US military redeploys out of Iraq. What kind of humanitarian effort will be made for all those men, women, and children who would targeted for attacks for reasons like religious persecution, or affiliation with the US military?
This rosy picture of some future point in time a contained cooperative democratic Iraq that respects all non-secular groups in a equal fashion is just incredible…
Congrats on your speed, CTuttle!
I like the idea of “Squid” being Crocker’s alias.
Gotta go pups. Let my honey use the toobz I been hoggin’ all day. *blush*
{{{{{{Peace}}}}}}
Just a reminder folks, for the sake of the servers and to help Christy out, please stay on topic and keep the one-liners to a minimum. Thanks!
Absurd that Ros-Lehtinen wants Move on to apologize for calling Patraeus “Betrayus”/
She should start with a good example and apologize to the Iraqi people for supporting an unnecessary war that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of injuries and deaths, and millions of refugees. She should apologize for suppporting the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, she should apologize for pushing hard for cutting off all aid including humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people. She should pre-emptively apologize to the Iraninan people who might die due to her push for a pre-emptive strike on Iran.
Go first Ros-Lehtinen your crimes are far more serious than MOVEOn calling Patraeous “Betrayus”
Move on must have gotten the report beforehand. How did they know?
EPU’d.
The military is dickering with facts I think.
Today there were 9 troops killed and all but one death is attributed to vehicle accidents.
Accidents are ‘non-hostile’ so they are not used statistically as war related.
One of the ‘accidents’ happened when a vehicle flipped over and caught on fire…kind of like what happens when a vehicle gets hit by an IED.
The surge is working…..rinse and repeat.
-GSD
“Squid” is slang for Sailors, don’t defame of the Navy people. Call him something more apropos. I am at somewhat of a loss for anything that is not profane, however…
some box flaps and rachmaninoff’s 2nd piano concerto:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..inoff.html
is we all better now that the oracles have recited bushco TPs? i aint lernt a damn thing i didnt know before….
Wow, Cindy Sheehan was one of the four arrested…
I thought Cindy Sheehan was retreating from all this. She was arrested protesting this morning.
Tweety: I love the (aqua velva) smell of Al Queada in the morning.
I wonder why nobody has asked if the “decrease” in deaths could be a function of changes in the way they count the deaths? Or has it (I was distracted by a phone call earlier.)?
juslin @ 21
really worth listening to the complete GAO and retired Generals report. More substance. Both at C-Span
juslin @ 21
I think I need a bath now…
Uck…..
for your browsing pleasure during the break….
It’s a series of tubes!
Biodun @ 23
http://cindyforcongress.com/
Ann in AZ @ 25
“If the bullet wound is in the back of the head, it’s sectarian.
If the bullet wound is in the front of the head, it’s criminal”.
ticktock @ 13
Wish there were c-span cameras in Syria so that the 2 million Iraqi refugees could watch this. (maybe they can access, would love to know what they think about all of this)
I just find it interesting that the hearing is being held in the same room used for the house ‘Unamerican Activities’ hearings. Fitting.
Petraeus’ charts
http://media.washingtonpost.co…..er2007.pdf
Kathleen @ 31
Iraqi refugees residing in Syria should have been invited to this bullsh*t meeting…
watching code pink being removed…i dont like this at all
Tony F=ing Snow-job on C-Span
“Petraeus is committing what some people think is the politically unforgiveable sin of succeeding.”
What a bunch of shit.
hearing ready to resume…..
As we wait….
The Dems need to KICK SOME ASS!
anyone still mad at me for sticking up for the Code Pink people?
Big Mitch predicts:
The new talking point is that Dems are angry because the surge is succeeding, as we learned from Petraeus and Crocker.
nonplussed @ 19
Croctopus
someone give skelton a shot of something plz to wake him up
Biodun @ 23
Cindy has been walking across the country you can go read her blog at the “IMPEACH BUSH” website.
theWalrus @ 38
Our dreams fulfilled. But not today, IMO…
juslin @ 35
As I note downstairs, Code Pink are a critical part of the anti-war movement, now, as in other efforts. They draw attention to themselves and the ludicrousness of the pro-war group, plus allowing a certain elasticity in the left position in this manner, opening up the arena of discourse so that people who want to be viewed as more centrist can move toward the left. The right has long done this with the likes of the clowns Limpballs, Savage and Coulter who become the far right fringe alllowing everthing up to that line to be viewed as centrist right. I applaud and thank Code Pink for their service to this nation and this cause.
Ed*ard Teller @ 39
Absolutely not! Free speech for all lest our union die!
et@39
i’m in your corner.. i remember demonstrating in the late 60s & 70s of course i’m a tad older than a lot of folks here
Ed*ard Teller @ 39
here’s my take:
Many Americans believe that the government said it so it must be true. They believe that there is no dissension from the line of shit we are being asked to snort. Code Pink is filling a void. They must be given credit for doing so. I wish there were someone else to fill the void in a better way.
kdh22 @ 46
I’m with you.
BBC poll on Iraqi opinion
(may have been linked earlier, if so, forgive please)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6983841.stm
Folks let’s keep the Code Pink contretemps OFF this thread please! We know different people have differing views on the group and let it stay at that moving forward.
Thank You.
Richmond @ 45
Me too! and while I do not like everything they do (really did not like when they stood directly behind Valerie Plame during her testimony a real distraction and dis-service). Many of them are devoted to peace and justice.
Dumping tea in a harbor wasn’t looked upon as couthe(sp?) either.
Ed*ard Teller @ 39
I love you for it
BigMitch @ 36
Isn’t Snowjob still under contract to the “vast right wing conspiracy”?
Who’s up?
ET @39…
You’re doing OK. on this. But you know that. ;0)
Oh.My.God.
Crocker has now added an Ed Kochian “ehhhhh..” to his otherwise prolix and voluble speech pattern.
The Lurking Mod @ 51
Thanks
kdh22 @ 53
You may have spelled it wrong but take comfort in the fact that there is no such word. Only “uncouth.”
Looked at Democracy Arsenal. I find nothing to disagree with there.
zennurse @ 33
Look at page 14 of the charts. Compare the number of attacks in Summer’06 vs Summer’07. Attacks are up per the General’s own charts when viewed that way.
Taking Big Mitch on his point “I wish there were someone else to fill the void in a better way,” does anybody have a suggestion? They yell, they wear pink, they get ejected. What’s to change – the yelling, the pink, or what?
Ed*ard Teller @ 39
Not on this thread. As Jane once said, what was said at the last thread stays on the last thread. Nerves have been quite frayed lately. I wish everyone could just vent their anger at the real enemies.
I can not keep from thinking about what it would be like to be an Iraqi and watch this group of Imperialist who are responsible for the disaster in Iraq discuss the direction of my country. It is so absurd.
I have never been so ashamed of my country or Reps!
BigMitch @ 60
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=couth
Berman: Refugee problem. Does US have responsibility to help refugees particualry those who helped US?
P: (Will he f-ing answer the question?)
totally OT, Reagan’s first wife died.
Romney’s Boston office burglarized
Ed*ard Teller @ 63
Take off the pink and have some of these regular folks do what they are doing.
as we sit here the war rages ever on….and on….and our economy sucks royally right now….politely…..
mui @ 67
Not being addressed
S’more free speech?
Top general tells Congress military goals of buildup met ‘in large measure’
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20689394/
“We have never armed tribes… “
LIES, LIES AND DAMN LIES
zennurse @ 68
Ironic. She had a movie on TV last night.
I’d like to hear a committe member ask: How many people will be killed in Iraq in the next 6 months? How many Americans, and how many Iraqis?
Betrayus: Feels strongly about refugee issue. Courageuous Iraqis etc. Feesl we have obligation to them.
*So what’s the contigency plan, Argh!?*
I’m beginning to think I was right about Bush being willing to ignore the fact that if he doesn’t reduce the number of troops, he’ll “break the military.” Via TPM:
So, one brigade to satisfy John Warner’s “conscience”, and then we’ll think about pulling out some more, but definitely not before March.
That really doesn’t sound like giving in to reality and drawing down troops in the spring so the Army doesn’t get any more broken. What will the Joint Chiefs do when he ignores their strenuous protests and extends deployments to 18 months?
I think I’d better go write to Webb and suggest he ask about whether they’re going to extend deployments, and if not, how they’re planning to continue the escalation until July.
Don’t watch TV, so didn’t get to see Code Pink’s protest.
In the 1960s, anti-war protests proved to be good TV entertainment. Good for TV stations. Good for the anti-war movement.
IMO, the anti-war movement today will be helped along by TV coverage of anti-war activities.
The 1960s prove there is no anti-war protesst activity reasonably close to the bounds of law that is too outlandish.
Didn’t see ‘em, but I’m with Code Pink.
Anti-war arguments should be disciplined and logically sound.
Anti-war protests should be filled with fire and emotion.
repugs do not go off the WH TPs to a man or woman!
You know, I think they are just killing or imprisoning anyone who doesn’t agree to submitting to Bush’s rule. Bush is the ruler of Iraq, not Maliki. Bush decides who is Al Qaeda and who is not. I’m not kidding about this. Bush is the ruler of Iraq. Bush/Cheney have taken over another country and are ruling it from the WH. This is freaking insanity. Iraq is the 51st state!
Jeez, what a lyin sack of … petraeus talks about caring for refugees…he creates refugees! wtf!
How many oil wells have we liberated herr zombie general?
mui @ 76
Feels strongly enough not to enlighten us as to a f*cking plan regarding these people….
Ed*ard Teller @ 39
Not me. Someone needs to serve as the Conscience of the American People in those hearings.
Bob in HI
Remember how some of our folks hated the Beatles because of their long hair and message?
Protests…”Take them into custody!!” Skelter.
Oh, that’s rich! Petraeus: “We have never given weapons to tribes.”
Maybe they didn’t hand them out, but they let the Iraqis have as many of them as they could carry off by not guarding them properly. My opinion is that we have armed both sides in the Iraq conflagration (that includes the civil war between the Sunnis and Shia, as well as the Sunni on Sunni and Shia on Shia violence.)
Protestors being removed once again
we cant ignore the protests in the room…
Kathleen @ 69
I think if I lived in DC I might be there. But probably not in pink, even though I like the color. At the last Anchorage Symphony concert last spring, the sponsor was Exxon. When an announcer asked the audience to thank Exxon for their generosity, many clapped, some stayed silent. I booed. Loudly, embarrassing my wife only a bit, but I was glad I did it.
Ed*ard Teller @ 39
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
ET, you’re in good company.
Kathleen @ 69
Spare me Kathleen, and that has been effective and changing anything? Stopping the war is like capturing an elephant the old way, you need lots of people going after it, in some cases using different methods.
After that crap Saxton speech to Petraeus & /or Crocker, I don’t mind the protesters for once.
crocker seems rattled to my eyes
BigMitch @ 60
How ’bout this:
Dumping tea in a harbor was deemed uncouth too.
Anti-war arguments should be disciplined and logically sound.
Anti-war protests should be filled with fire and emotion.
Well said!
What a leading question!!: “If we leave in the wrong way what will be the result?”
Ed*ard Teller @ 89
Exxon: the people who brought you the Valdez Oil Spill.
LS – you are very right about what they are calling success in Anbar – everyone should read what progress in Fallujah looks like:
Dahr Jamail on Fallujah
Finally a question about the refugee crisis but they were allowed to kind of dodge the answer…..
Also wish they would quit making it an all or nothing on leaving. I haven’t heard a Dem yet say that we should leave immediately, but more than a token withdrawl is needed.
It didn’t look like she was wearing pink and had an American flag on. Everyone happy now?
Petraeus/crocker strategy: Never underestimate the gullibility of American politicians, or their willingness to roll over for patriotism.
What I haven’t seen much of– and I hope someone asks Petraus about this– when he talks of the cost of leaving, will someone please ask him about the cost of staying?
What this administration as always avoided, from the day after infamous 9/11, was what the cost would be. People were fired for daring to estimate the cost. They’re quite happy to go on at length about their fears of the cost of “cutting and running,” but VERY reluctant to say anything about the cost– not just in dollars, but in deaths, maiming, and psycho-social impairment– of staying, and not just to us, but to Iraq. Make’em talk about the cost of staying, every day, on every facet of this terrible and infantile exercise in imperialism.
Bob in HI
i’m sick of the 2 jersey asskissers..where’s some jersey dem reps on this joint hearing? damn
Crocker: we have to consider consequences of our actions.
When the hell did they start this?
OK. I’ve had enough.
Over three hours and not ONE probing question.
I’m going out for a walk and contemplate what this country will be like after it collapses.
See you there!
I’ve done similar actions to the folks speaking up – it’s hard and weirdly scarey but at least someone in the room is trying to speak truth.
And the idea that the D’s will prosecute disgusts me.
Crocker’s facial expression resembles Alan Rickman as Snape.
1,592 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Lurking Mod and the fIREPUP pATRIOTS:
“Let’s keep the Code Pink contretemps OFF this thread please. We know different people have differing views on the group and let it stay at that moving forward.”
You didn’t really just say that to the free citizens of FDL didja “Moderator”? The “contretemps” involving Code Pink is NOT about Code Pink or different folks’ views of Code Pink…the DIALOGUE around this group’s actions is what FDL and free politics is all about! We are tryin ta find a way forward to impose the will of the people on an authoritarian power structure that is murdering people all over the world and has been enslaving and murdering American citizens for 200 years!!
Don’t you dare give us a condescending verbal slap on the hands for trying to create an analysis of the shit we’re in in order to move democracy forward. Shame on you!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND WHEN IN DOUBT GO BACK AND THE THE CONSTITUTION WE’RE TRYIN’ TA SAVE HERE!!!
When you get into this thing about freedom of expression, where do you draw the line? And I’m not talking about yelling fire in a theater.
BigMitch @ 104
About 30 seconds ago.
Cara @ 99
If you read my note on #13 I believe that in order to have a credible exit plan it should incorporate a humanitarian effort strategy to protect the Iraqis civilians as much as possible…
Prosecuting Code Pink will give them another chance to make their case in public.
Part of civil disobedience is getting prosecuted and using that occassion appropriately.
contra: siun at 106
The Bush administration dresses up in suits and lies. Purple suits won’t change the lies.
P: on amnesty. ?!? Conditional immunity.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
Taking off my shirt and dancing on a table top….
Just kidding, had to lighten up, okay?….
Jeebus @ 73
It is a mark of this administration that they lie shamelessly.
Bob in HI
It is Skelton’s response that has me infuriated.
juslin @ 93
Agreed. & Betr. ditto, early on. Haven’t been watching last few min.
Criticality??? Is there such a word? I think not!
LS @ 117
he’s playing into the hands of the civil protesters.
Forward to Victory!
Pass the chloroform…
I told everyone these testimonies would come to nought. MSM has been bruiting this about for weeks. The Report. The Report. “This will be a crucial week for the Iraq war.” “This will be a critical week for the president.” “He’s heading home from Australia to what will be an important week for the surge.” “Next week, when Petraeus delivers his report.”
Bull f*cking sh*t.
The Lurking Mod @ 51
dear lurking mod – i will certainly try to follow your rules, but first i want to say that i think this is a very important discussion. i respectfully request you reconsider your decision, and allow conversation about topics where there is disagreement. thank you.
Ed*ard Teller @ 63
Here’s a suggestion. They could lower their shrieks an octave so their words might be intelligible. I assume they intend to be understood not just heard.
Sorry, Mod. I’ll stop now.
Let’s talk about “Extremists in CYBERSPACE!”
Cara @ 99
Some Democratic politician needs to slap down this “a date certain to withdraw will only empower our enemies” idea.
This is a modern bureaucratic army, and to remove it from a country would require a real timetable. It’s not like we can sneak out and hope they won’t notice…
There he goes bringing up the terrorists and the internet again…
Where’s spiderpaws? New Moon – 0% of Full – Mon 10 Sep, 2007 GMT -8:00
A Plan?
What makes you think anyone in the Criminal-in-Chief’s coterie have enough brains to plan anything? (And that includes Cheney.)
They still haven’t figured out that while they may have won the war, they didn’t and never will win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis!
Their answer to any snag that comes up is “Who could have imagined (………).” Lack of imagination = lack of intelligence.
BigMitch @ 112
Absolutely right.
to paraphrase the Byrds:
to everything there is a season
a time for restraint
a time for action
Meanwhile, back at the ranch…
9 American soldiers killed in Iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..mi_ea/iraq
Has Sestak had his time yet?
I’m sure Ellen Tauscher’s gonna bring the heat!
http://armedservices.house.gov…..bers.shtml
bobschacht @ 116
Characteristics (from Osric Univ)of persons with Antisocial Personality Disorder:
1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
2. deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
3.impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
4.irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
5.reckless disregard for safety of self or others
6.consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
Sound like anyone or any Administration WE know?
mui @ 76
This obligation business is so much baloney. We invaded their country, destroyed the infrastructure, and are building armed encampments all over their country, and our obligation is…
…to stay and continue colonizing them??? WTF???
Our obligation should be to recognize our mistake, apologize, and leave, perhaps leaving behind a string of non-military IOU’s for the next government of Iraq to cash when and if they want to.
Bob in HI
Sounds like we have 23,000,000 new fellow Homelandian citizens. The Homelandians are not planning to leave. Ever.
Iraq has become and will remain a colony of the Homeland – unless the next president gives them back their country, which I doubt will ever happen.
Welcome to your new “virtual” Homeland…Iraqians.
This is a waste of time. Of course it is total BS. Six months from now they will be asking to keep the surge up for another six months.
The dems are wimps and don’t have the guts to confront a man in uniform. Why doesn’t someone ask Betraus about the profiles that are passed out about Democratic congress members. Uh Oh a Jersey spinmeister!
zennurse @ 68
1,000 pairs of flip-flops and a case of Grecian Formula reported missing.
-GSD
War is good!
Internet is bad!
Can I have some money now?
Yayyyyy! Democracy!
Ed*ard Teller @ 127
The birthday of the universe, the new year, begins at sundown on Wednesday with a new moon. The beginning of the Jewish holiday of Rosh HaShana.
Go, Ackerman…!!!
MR. Bill @ 125
Excellent point and well-made. There HAS to be a timetable.
Bravo to that woman whoever she was!
Ackerman is getting hot. Finally!
Pointing out difference between fighting terrorism and sorting out the gov’t of Iraq. Two different missions.
OH! He finally made the analogy between our troops in Iraq and a cop called to domestic violence call. Good analogy I think
Ackerman: Can we afford to put a cop in every bad marriage?
CTuttle @ 139
My thoughts EXACTLY!
Oh yes. Thank you Rep. Ackerman!
He is being rather rude though, don’t you think. It might hurt our cause because the media will make him look bad.
Mr. Ackerman just yelled…he might get prosecuted if he ticks off Helter Skelton.
He’s making some good analogies. Dysfunctional marriage…it’s like trying to put a cop in every dysfunctional marriage, when the parties won’t even bother to show up for counseling.
Cozumel @ 130
As I mentioned earlier 8 of the 9 are reported to have been vehicle accidents so the stats won’t show up as hostile deaths.
That is why the military often says the helicopter crashes are mechanical problems, that way they don’t count as hostile deaths.
-GSD
ackerman is asking good questions finally
A request from a lurking non-mod: At some point, on some future post, let’s have a full discussion of the Code Pink issue, and any other related stuff. I agree that it is an important topic, and deserves more attention.
But for now, can we *please* leave this thread for the Petraeus/Crocker discussion? The other stuff is making it hard for those of us who cannot watch live to follow what may (or may not) be going on.
Thank you.
Betrayus is scribling madly.. Don’t think he’s drawing happy faces.
Hot damn…..
Reality check….
Will this be worth it?…..
Ackerman is my hero
GO ACKERMAN!
stephen @ 119
oh don’t get me started on their guv-speak! *sigh*
it’s useful, tho, in tracing the lineage of certain new players on the stage in the chatter-shows, tho. Thugs stick out like, well, thugs. They just can’t help themselves.
Only trubble is, the “Kleenex” & “Xerox” principle takes over, and then lines get cloudy.
Remember back when only rummy drove us crazy posing his very-own rhetorical questions so he could answer them for us? Now every perfectly coiffed lil’ cutie at the anchor desk does it.
And it ain’t no fun no more.
Ackerman just nailed Petraes HARD.
Thank YOU Mr. Ackerman! Thank you
Hmmm this whole process reminds me of…..OATMEAL! NO TASTE NOTHING!
Oh now Croker is talking about Sabra and Shatella masacres…Foisted on the world by Sharon and his crowd our ally!
What evidence does Petraeus have about the golden dome bombing?
Hope you guys will continue giving us what’s happening in the hearings, Christy’s out for now and I’ve gotta run.
“Al Qaeda in Iraq” is a made up slogan…”Al Qaeda Central”…that’s a new one. Just like Operation Flying Ostrich or something like that.
Al Q*eda in Iraq bullshit has been called.
Al-Qaeda “CENTRAL”??? wtf is that supposed to mean. the whole structure of a cell-based terrorist group is antithetical to the idea of “central”
Siun @ 106
Agree with both points.
In the endless Northwest Forest wars, a reliable source of entertainment comes from the endless arguments on “the best” tactic.
From an ecological perspective, no tactic (and that’s what speaking out in a Congressional hearing is – a tactic) is intrinsically “best” or “worse”.
Just as with us living things, a given tactic may thrive in one niche and fail in different circumstances.
So my friends in Greenpeace use tactics that differ from those used by my friends in the Ruckus Society, who use tactics that differ from those used by my friends in EarthFirst!
And none of them are always wrong or always right – circumstances often determine what works.
(Oh – and all the tactics I’m talking about are non-violent civil disobedience of various forms).
Over eleven years of working with and observing these groups (I’ m a shrink – we notice even when we’re not trying to), I’ve learned that arguments about tactics by those on the sidelines tend to be a reliable indicator of the observers’ emotional discomfort.
Given this dog and pony show, I can’t imagine anyone at the Lake is too comfortable.
Yet as Code Pink will continue to do whatever they damn well please irrespective of what anyone else thinks, I’m a bit perplexed by any investment of emotional energy in discussing Code Pink’s tactics.
Sometimes I think CP’s tactics suck – today I happen to agree with their tactics. IN either case, I haven’t found investing my emotional comfort in Code Pink’s decisions to be of benefit to anyone – least of all myself.
Of course, others’ mileage may vary…
Here at the Lake we’ve talked about an FDL “affinity group” for mass protests. Perhaps discussing how we talk about tactics for public protest would be useful preparation for such activities.
JPL @ 150
Maybe he has to go PeePee?
My take on the hearing so far:
This war started on July 25, 1990, when April Glaspie, on instructions from her boss, Secretary of State James Baker, told Saddam that disputes between Iraq and Kuwait were not the business of the USA. Since then, we’ve killed about 2,000,000, injured more, displaced twice as many, destroyed over 50% of urban dwellings, 70% of urban infrastructure, mushroomed birth defects from the detritus of our warmaking, ended the existence of the most highly educated set of females in the Middle East outside of Israel, turned almost 90% of Iraqi Chritians into refugees, and destroyed the vast majority of their professional class.
Until our legislators understand this central set of facts, we are doomed to hear a succession of Petrauses and Crockers explain to agreeable or vaguely disagreeable politicians how the next few Friedman units are necessary.
oh merde – just saw your 51.
apologies…
stephen @ 157
But perpetrqated by the Lebanese, if you will recall.
Jeebus @ 162
They are the football rivals of Al Qaeda West.
-GSD
stephen @ 157
Terrific — what has that got to do with Iraq? Someone slap that man and get him back on target.
Ackerman: The question is, how do we leave!
Answer…Ummmm….ah…umm….cement T-walls to secure neighborhoods…then the Iraqis can take over by themselves…
WTF???
F*ck, wall off the mixed sectarian regions… WTF???
kdh @ 22
Big Mitch @ 60
I’m a bit late on uptake but ‘boorish,’ for example, is far less poetic, bringing to mind the thought that our Great Leader Guy is both ’swa-vay AND deboner.’
BTW, having protested the last Big Madness (way back when), I give ET my vote as well.
Ed*ard Teller @ 165
DING!
selise @ 123
But, don’t you see?
it’s.swamping.the.thread! REALLY.
Can’t it wait till after the hearing’s are over? Pretty please?
as usual pugs giving hugs – c’mon dems bring da noyz to paraphrase PE
How come Ackerman didn’t get more time?
The walls are being used in areas of Baghdad … and actually make the residents more vulneragle as they are contained with no easy way to flee and forced to go through checkpoints that are not manned by their own people.
We are using the most oppressive possible tactics in Iraq to manufacture a false pacification.
cuz skelton dont wanna be mean lol
Petraeus: “Al Qaeda in Iraq is part of global Al Qaeda. We have proof of communications between them.” Not the most solid argument. I have communications with Verizon and Chase Bank but I’m not a subsidiary of either.
Petraeus: “Al Qaeda is the fuel that feeds the sectarian violence”
GOP John McHugh of NY now asks Petraeus: “how do we get Maliki to get it together?”
Now I get it. Bush/Cheney wants to wall off everybody and everything, because they want to Compartmentalize the world.
That’s all they’ve got. Put up walls.
liavc @ 176
five-minute rule applies?
Good lord, Rep. McHugh says we are all frustrated with the Iraqi government…The buck stops over there, so it doesn’t have to stop here….
Jane has asked Rick Noriega to join us today for BlueAmerica. He is here live with us in the new thread. Jane and Howie are here for the discussion.
Blue America Special Edition: Rick Noriega
Please stay on topic and be respectful. Feel free to continue discussing the hearings here on this thread.
LS @ 179
Uh-huh! Walls here on our southern border, walls there to keep the combatants away from one another. We’re real inventive.
do-si-do @ 182
Aint that the truth!
Can just see the preparations Betrayus had with the WH spinsters:
“Listen Davey, if they get you on the ropes, which is highly unlikely with this group of polite Dems, just mention al-Qaeda over and over again. Got it?”
BigMitch @ 173
I’ve always thought this too…It was BushOne’s chance at a ‘good war’. Too bad the economy tanked.
And it was necessary to get Saddam dead once the Iraq Invasion was over, because as a former CIA asset, he could have spilled the beans.
Brisingamen @ 169
Because as he knows this charade is largely all about Is*ael, and the promotion of Rethug ad Dem fears that if they fail to approve the continuation of the war here (and in Iran) for the long duree they will face accusations of being anti-Is*aeli and anti-Semitic. Major slip up in showing the petticoats of this whole affair (but also conceivably done with intent).
Hello and Welcome Mr. Noriega.
Petraeus is an impressive speaker. However, he also highlights the reason that our political system requires that the military report to the civilian leadership. He sees a job to be done and wants to finish the job. He does not see the wider political aspects of an war tearing apart our country.
Now, our civilian leadership has abdicated their leadership role and put all responsibility on the military. This is not the way our democracy works, and this should be addressed along side the quagmire that is Iraq.
Just an FYI on the Al Qaeda Iraq -
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/…..-duts.html
Also, I know there is a group in Iraq that started to call themselves either “Iraq Al Qaeda” or the reverse but cannot find it…Does anyone remember what group this was? IIRC they had started to go away from being called by this name, as well.
But this leaves no question that one of the new big phrases for the next few weeks will be “Al Qaeda Iraq”.
kelliebrat @ 189
Kelliebrat, you’re confused. You need to physically move upstairs to welcome Mr. Noriega.
I realized that after I posted it!I have got to stop coloring my hair blonde..
Ann in AZ @ 193
LOL!
Ann in AZ @ 193
Maybe kelliebrat is a French police agent and thinks Manuel is hanging out here…
Ed*ard Teller @ 195
Biodun @ 194
Upstairs?
That’s another story…
lol kellibrat noriega is upstairs
Didn’t I read recently that AQ in Iraq accounts for only about 7% of the carnage?
juslin @ 198
kelliebrat is changing name to ‘dingleball’ lol
well now the rep from ole miss is surprising….
I put up fresh thread for more discussion for everyone talking about topics off the Noriega live chat happening above. Thought you could use some fresh comment space.
Adie @ 174
But, don’t you see?
it’s.swamping.the.thread! REALLY.
Can’t it wait till after the hearing’s are over? Pretty please?
no.
i don’t see it.
at all.
i think it’s one of the most interesting parts of the hearing.
please note that, in an effort to respect the live blogging, i didn’t make any comment while the liveblogging was happening. now, we have a thread for discussion and not only am i not allowed to join a pre-existing conversation, worse, i don’t get the chance to read the comments other people aren’t going to make because they’ve been told not to.
the protests are not something separate from the hearing – they are part of the hearing.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 202
Thanks Christy!
Cyn2 @ 199
ETpedia definition of AQ-Iraq – Whenever they can’t pin an incident on any obvious group, tribe, militia or whatever, it’s them!
Upstairs is another story all right. There’s a new Christy thread, but it’s not upstairs.
Cyn2 @ 200
We’ve heard this repeatedly! (There was a really cute bit on Jon Stewart’s show recently about that, but that’s another story!)
The thing is they’re talking about dates by which Iraqis will be ready to protect themselves. Petraeus mentioned the date in Kurd held areas. I think we already know that the Kurds know what they’re doing. If only the rest of Iraq could take a cue from them!
did that just say D-American Samoa? I didn’t know non-states (other than D.C.) had reps…
Jeebus @ 208
BigMitch,
Whadda ya know about American Samoa and its representation in the gov’t?
Jeebus @ 208
I believe Puerto Rico and US Virgin Islands also have non voting reps.
Boy, that last question about whether we should be following the road to splitting into 3 states with a loose central government or the other road toward a strong central government seemed to me to be quite a good question from a repug!
Boy, that last question about whether we should be following the road to splitting into 3 states with a loose central government or the other road toward a strong central government seemed to me to be quite a good question from a repug!
Folks, we have a fresh thread up for continuing discussion. I’d appreciate it if everyone could move here to take a little load off the servers. Thanks much!
Do you all know there are 2 new threads?
CTuttle @ 171
They want to turn Bagdad into Belfast with sectarian ghettos, that way they think they can come to some resolution like in N. Ireland – not.
bobschacht @ 133
And extract the refugees. Since there since to be some little bosnia serbia genocide going on there.
selise @ 203
Hoo boy! Agree and disagree. Yes, the protests are absolutely part of the story, deserving comment and full coverage.
However, when testimony which has never been heard before in public, is ongoing (when I came upon your comment, hearing had resumed and was still ongoing – till after 6p.m. EDT, as a matter of fact)… Mods and Christy all had pleaded for people to understand and back off the intense discussion on that one topic for the time-being. I just wish, given the very real limits of the servers that bring us same, their cautions could be heeded at such times.
Dang. Why not do what I do? When I see something ongoing is time-sensitive, or when I hear/see something of note elsewhere, I scribble notes & references & break in ASAP at a more opportune time. I sometimes have to override my own ideas of what’s a reasonable time by listening to the mods and directors of the blog.
In my experience, they have NEVER tried to stomp on free speech in any way.
except: please document your sources, and,
please don’t abuse other commenters.
I’m not in favor of squelching dialog or free-speech rights or protesters’rights and impact on news events.
It’s just that, well, I’ve BEEN there when the overloaded servers went “down” during previous important coverage (e.g., Libby trial, when FDL was out alone in front of EVERYONE else). I’ve understood, and stepped aside during important interviews, and especially during coverage of live events of such importance that sending FDL hamsters into a tailspin is just not something any of us wants.
There are ALWAYS other threads open here at FDL. Why insist on using the one and only one covering a live, outside event with live-blogging, to hold an intense, bandwidth-gobbling discussion about something collateral to the main event?
Yes, the protest is very important and deserving of discussion, in all its ramifications.
No, such discussion, hopefully should not get so avid that it swamps the ongoing, breaking-news coverage of the main event.
Maybe this wouldn’t be so important if the MSM provided better coverage of events, and if the govt spokespersons were being forthright & honest in public, but they’re just not.
So, FDL’s special, on-site coverage is really really important – every word, every nuance.
YES, very much including the protests.
Please let’s try to understand each other.
Thank you selise for your ideas and your zeal!
We all need to work together, not always agree necessarily, but not fight over things we all believe in either. When the mods say, “caution…”, I believe them, because they are out to protect free discussion, not to quash it.
[pleez forgive rambling, messy nature of this comment. It’s been bizzy here & i just know that later i will regret the lack of proof-reading. hope folks will read the benign intent correctly ;->]
dang. gettin’ too old for this…
Lordy I hope some’a what i said makes a smidgen of sense…
*takes a deep breath*
dakine01 @ 210
and Washington D.C.??
Adie @ 217 –
this was NOT a liveblog thread.
the request i objected to was specific that only comments on the code pink protests were to stop. as i said, i waited until after the live blog – and was pretty pissed off to find out i wasn’t to discuss it. would it have been better if i had commented in an earlier thread, when it was permitted – even though that was during the live blog? i don’t think so.
this was an instance of attempting to stop ONE conversation that was on topic, and of obvious interest to many commenters… while allowing one liners and other comments to proceed.
i tried to follow the rules, out of respect for those who make this site possible – but i’m still going to object when i think something is wrong. and my strong objection stands.
p.s. if you feel you missed the hearing, i made an audio recording and would be happy to upload if for you, or anyone else, who wants every word and every nuance. let me know.
thank you selise. no, i didn’t miss the hearing. appreciate the offer. ;->
Adie @ 220
ok.
even though we disgree, thank you for the good discussion on this issue. appreciate it very much.
selise. Thanks for olive branch. *offers hand*
I think we’re all just festering inside these days.
I see it locally in our neighborhood and haunts also, even our sweet kids (30-somethings; not really kids).
It’s really hard to keep an even keel while dubya & co. trash the world.
Thanks for all that you do. you’re an incredibly gifted and valued member of this terrific community.
I didn’t mean to ruffle yer feathers. honest! maybe i’m dense, but i don’t think we do disagree over the substance of the matter. i had been concerned earlier DURing liveblog – it was such a frantic scramble during libbylibbylibby trial when servers went down – won’t get over it soon. and i probably carried the subject on way too long…. as i am now, heh. Note to self: Enough!
Glad to see some of the senators are doing better today than the house mbrs did yesterday, sigh.
I wish you and yours well. ;->
aw, adie, i don’t mind having my feathers ruffled. we all feel strongly only because we care. that’s a good thing. peace, friend.