It’s “gimme more FUs day.” I’m going to try and liveblog as much of the Petraeus/Crocker Dog and Pony Show and WH-Written Talking Points as I can. Do try to have a light hand in the comments to be kind to the servers and your liveblogger. Thanks!
And for your reading pleasure, Media Matters has a fairly comprehensive overview of myths and facts on Iraq. Just for baseline starting points and all…
____________________
AMB. CROCKER: Thanks for the opportunity to address Congress today. Privilege and honor to serve in Iraq. I know a heavy responsibility weighs on my soul…erm…shoulders to outline the issues, problems, and challenges facing us in Iraq, and I will not minimize these issues. At the same time, I intend to demonstrate that the US can realize its goals in Iraq, and that Iraqis are working toward advancing their own goals.
The cumulative trajectory of security, political and domestic improvements is on the upward swing, although the curve is not steep. There will be no single moment at which we claim victory — any turning point will likely only be recognized in retrospect. This is a sober reflection, but not a depressing one. Reflects on early years of the US, and how our survival as a nation was also sometimes questioned and resolved after acrimonious debate and sometimes violence.
Evaluation of events today only makes sense in the context of their history. Any Iraq under the age of 40 would only have known Iraq under the Baathist rule of Saddam Hussein and his violent, savage history in that nation. He used violence and intimidation as his tools to deconstruct ties within Iraqi society, in a pervasive climate of fear in which even family members were afraid to talk to one another. References the toppling of the Hussein statue. A new Iraq had to be built almost literally from scratch, with the resulting violence and political infighting.
The past 18 months of sectarian violence had its seeds in Saddam’s societal deconstruction, and it has had dire effects on Iraqi society. It is no egaggeration to say that Iraq is and will remain for some time a traumatized society. It is against this backdrop in which Iraqi politics and society must be seen. They are not just grappling with who rules Iraq, but what sort of nation this will be and how they will rule among themselves and/or share power. The constitution enacted remains uncertain in both law and practice.
There is a budding debate about federalism among Iraqi government and communities. This thinking is nascent, but it is ultimately critical to the development of Iraqi leadership. Additionally, a focus on sectarian gains has led to poor governments that do not serve all Iraqis. They concede that they need to put government performance ahead of sectarian gains.
Finally, there must be a tackling of immediate problems. One such example is how the central government has accepted former members of insurgent groups from the Abu Ghraib area to be part of Iraqi security forces. Additionally, somethign that hasn’t been publicly trumpted, we see provisional immunity being granted and seeds of reconciliation from the de-baathification process by offering jobs or a recommision in the military to be part of that carrot. (paraphrase here)
The question is how to share power and resources among Iraq’s communities. Oil revenue sharing laws have more to do than just wealth sharing — what is difficult is that it takes Iraq further down the road to a federal system that all Iraqis have not embraced. There needs to be a revenue share on an equitable basis with all of Iraq’s provinces.
Equating this to civil rights movements here and states rights arguments. Balance old wounds from the Baath party against the knowledge that a number of people joined that party for personal survival reasons. [CHS notes: Shot of Tom Lantos looking like he isn't buying that one.] They can and must come to an agreement on the sort of Iraq they want. This is going to take longer than we anticipated because of the gravity and complexity of the issues before them.
Believes that Iraqi politicians approach this task with a deep sense of purpose and patriotism. 8/26/07 communique from Iraq’s top leaders talking about working together on de-Bathification issues and security. This is encouraging. Despite their many differences on perspectives and experience, they all agree that the US needs to stay there and appreciate the sacrifices that coalition forces have made for Iraq.
Says that gains in the north and west in Iraq have been significant.
[FYI, I have to pick up The Peanut from the busstop shortly. So I'll have to stop liveblogging very soon. If someone can pick up the occasional update in the comments, that would be great. Thanks! -- CHS]
Shi’a extremists are also facing rejection in Iraq. Going over the Sadr call repudiating attacks on coalition forces.
Iraq is starting to make some gains in the economy. In some places, war damage is being cleared, buildings repaired, infrastructure repaired and commerce being ennergized. Oil revenue needs to be utilized for investment in capital investment. Getting into ministry data on how oil revenue funds — provincial authorities doing the best job of allocating these resources.
Off to the busstop. Be back soon as I can…
Related posts:
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- Saddam Interrogation: US Still Trying to Show 9/11 Connection as Late as Mid-2004
- US Contractors Held in Iraqi Jail for Green Zone Murder
- Remember Iraq or Ray Odierno is Still Wrong
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”





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not again
Zed
No way.
yep, twice in one day.
Thank You Christy for your work today.
kabuki
zennurse on a roll…
Just a reminder folks, for the sake of the servers and to help Christy out, please stay on topic and keep the one-liners to a minimum. Thanks!
But the inability to pass national legislation must be considered a bottleneck for this government at the very least.
Did Crocker ever take a history course…
likens it to the civil rights fight, wtf
Can anyone see someone who talks like this in the backrooms of Baghdad cutting political deals with Iraqis?
To answer a question from the previous thread, Crocker speaks Arabic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Crocker
Crocker attributed widespread displacement of Iraqis to AQI ? what horseshit.
What that tells me is that we are likely about to be hearing more about this as a front and center problem BushCo will have to publicly acknowledge, which says nothing about how long it’s been a tragic result of this invasion.
I missed part of the oil revenue sharing.
Cocker just wasteing time . stalling,,,,, and WHY are they useing HOMELAND…. its THE United States of America *USA* ,,, homeland is a nazi word…..
De-baathification: the rooting out of the Sunnis who were more vocal in their support of Saddam than the majority of Sunnis who merely benefitted from Sunni domination of a Shi’ite majority.
Did I get that right?
I’m going to record Crocker speaking and play it back when I have bouts of insomnia.
Given that there has actually been negative political movement in Iraq over the course of the “surge”, Crocker’s testimony comes across as especially mendacious and divorced form reality.
bigbob@15
d’uhhhhh
After hearing this up to this point, I can’t understand why the Committee didn’t submit questions to be answered ahead of time. This is clearly propaganda. Where are the references, the methodologies, the metrics, not to mention the original stated military mission (there hasn’t ever been one, and this sure would be a good time to have that officially acknowledged).
As to Code Pink – I agree with zennurse. The tactics don’t fit. Petraeaus and Crocker must be heard, and the Committee hearing conducted uninterrupted. Code Pink needs (and has a legitimate right) to be heard, but abusing the rules of conduct in the Committee hearing sends so many wrong messages – and then gets used against the very agenda they are trying to put forth. They are portrayed as buffoons instead of patriots, and they make for rich camera fodder for the wingnuts.
They would do well to find a marketer to help them.
big bob @ 15
Homeland does have a foreign ring to it, but the Nazi word was “fatherland.”
Hugh @ 18
I Agree!
C: “These leaders are looking for help to rebuild their cities…”
That we destroyed.
(
What about that $8 billion that “disappeared..??)
Shorter Puppetraeus and ItsaCrocker:
Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda. Iran. Al Qaeda. Progress. Al Qaeda. Iran. Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda . . . etc. ad nauseum . . . .
To clarify something I was wrong about -
Wordsmith @ 227
Sorry – it was BREMER who didn’t speak Arabic. Crocker is fluent, according to this story.
if this was a dem administration can you imagine the wingers being this nice? oh hell noooooooooooooooo
AP – Gen. David Petraeus went before Congress on Monday to deliver his long-awaited assessment of Iraq, greeted by Democrats who praised him while sharply criticizing the war he commands.
N=1 @ 20
I agree with the views of Code Pink but I don’t agree with their tactics. This is serious business we are about and they are a distraction and look sorta silly. I think we need demonstrations but out in the street by the thousands.
Whatever is going on with the Mahdi Army isn’t provincial
i take too long to write:
previous thread comment 237
Crocker spunds like Senator “I am not gay” Craig to me.
Is he trying to bore them to death?
N=1 @ 20
Sorry, that’s all classified information and can only be shared amongst the 400 Loyal Bushies[tm] in the WH.
Have a nice day.
old expression – you dance where the music is played……
Crocker seems to have a bad case of Green Zone syndrome. He talks as if the rest of Iraq is much like the Green Zone but with a few more problems.
If you look at my list of the 20 reasons why he surge is not working, you will see how at odds Crocker’s testimony is with what is going on in Iraq: (No, I won’t keep putting these up all day although it’s good to keep them in mind.)
1. Failure to meet the two goals of the surge: 1) Security in Baghdad and 2) A political settlement
2. The move away from benchmarks because little or no progress has been made on them
3. Failure to recognize Iraq is in civil war and create a strategy which addresses it
4. Continued conflation of al Qaeda with the Sunni insurgency
5. Exaggeration of Iran’s role in Shia militias and minimization of Saudi Arabia’s role in the much more deadly Sunni insurgency
6. Failure to resolve tensions between the Kurds and Turkey in the North
7. Corruption, disorganization, sectarian nature, and ineffectualness of the Iraqi government
8. High levels of violence and deaths of Iraqis which have not declined
9. Iraqi security forces remain largely fronts for militias and death squads
10. The Iraqi army has almost no reliable troops and remains strongly dependent on our forces
11. Deterioration of basic services, such as water, electricity, and healthcare
12. Large scale malnutrition among Iraqis children (~28%)
13. Continued high levels of unemployment (25%-40%)
14. Declining oil production, Iraq’s principal source of income
15. High numbers of refugees: 2 million in neighboring countries, 2 million internally displaced
16. Tenuousness and temporary nature of Sunni truce in Anbar
17. Increased Shia on Shia violence in the South
18. Exhaustion of American troops and equipment
19. Inability to sustain the number of troops needed for the surge
20. Post-withdrawal violence will occur if we leave now or later
Here’s the Petraeus draw-down graph, with troop reductions past March scheduled for ‘?’.
As I said downstairs in relation to David Patraeus’ testimony:
You know this guy is full of shit from the fact that he refers to the terrorist/insurgents as al Q*aeda. The name of the organization that operates in Iraq is Al Qu*da in Iraq, or (sometimes) Al Q*eda in Mesopotamia.
It is like confusing George Bush with the Burning Bush of the Book of Exodus.
I wonder if the green zone gets more than 2 hours of electricity per day?
BigMitch @ 21
Fine, f*cking Fascist, then. Homeland is not a word for use in this country. It’s omnious. I don’t like and never have.
The Nazis used many words to describe Germany; homeland may have been used. Why is it so freakin’ important? It’s about totalitarianism and the use of particular words.
Someone last thread thot they both ought to be asked if they wrote their own reports.
I believe Betr. started right out claiming he had done so, stating this rather emphatically. Body language not so much… ymmv
I wish they would just tell the truth (as if..) and say:
“We can’t leave yet… we haven’t built our $700 million embassy (it’ll be so beautiful), or our new base right on the border with Iran… (it will be so swell).. but most importantly… Iraq has not signed over its oil reserves… we just don’t know why they are dragging their feet about that.”
just a little OT, but I was wondering what Pat Fitzgerald thought about OBL’s newest video. I would like to hear his thoughts about that.
Crocker’s statements for the last few minutes sound like a description of the situation in the poor areas of New Orleans as much as they do Iraq and Baghdad.
BigMitch @ 36
Damn shame the Criminal-in-Chief hasn’t spontaneously combusted…
green zone i’m sure has all the amenities of home
They said the hearing should last 6 hours. Did that mean 5.59 hours of opening statements and 1 minute of questioning?
I am surprised there are no cheer leaders and a huge marching band with flags awaving with this theater of the absurd….
What exactly is the point of this whole proceeding except to promote the White House’s adgenda?….
BigMitch @ 21
the russians say “motherland”.
we should go for the “Siblingland”
/snark
theWalrus @ 32
Yeah – you’re right. Stoopid me. I have to stop reading those subversive books like Gore’s The Assault on Reason.
Crocker sounds like an Amway salesman. Need some used encyclopedias?
By the way, looking at my list, I just realized neither of these guys has mentioned “benchmarks”. Probably just a coincidence.
Post-kinetic environment? Where do they come up with this tripe?
Twain @ 28
That’s the way I used to feel about them. The wingnuts won’t be dissuaded from their nuttiness by rationally calm rather than flamboyant protest. When we look back upon this awful period, the few members of Code Pink will probably be regarded as people who maximized the effect of their protests while most chose to be docile and accomodating of the face of a long-term war crime.
theWalrus @ 44
No kidding – It has been two hours and not one question has been asked.
A Saudi Embassy in Baghdad – Inagine that!
Now might be a good time to take a shower to get ready for work. This guy is boring – oh, Saudi Arabia is going to open an embassy in Baghdad. Our good buddies.
Jeez, can’t they just enter Crocker’s full statement into the record and get on with QUESTIONS!!!???
theWalrus @ 44
Exactly….
Why are these people just being given a platform to promote their beloved agenda?…
Blah, blah, blah, blah….
WTF…
ho-hummm – does this end soon? cuz we all know this cuz the msm drums this daily
The mention of Iran and Syria near the end had great point, to select a word
Brisingamen @ 42
now that was good! VERY GOOD!
Can you finish your opening statements already or are you trying to push till 6 to avoid questions?
Iran, Iran Iran, the drums of war are beating loud and clear. Too bad there isn’t a SOTU due….Bush could declare war on Iran….
You know, I about ready to mute this bullsh*t and wait for the question and answer period…
If there is going to be any…..
Crocker now beating up on Iran again without mentioning Saudi Arabia’s role.
Now bringing up al Qaeda, and that the surge is working, yadda, yadda, yadda.
2006 was a bad year in Iraq.
Ya think?
I am hearing the sound of sugar coating dripping on the floor.
I heard lots of statements that are com pletely at odds with the GAO report.
Hugh @ 49
counter-insurgency manual written by Petraeus?
Keeping in mind what is said today…check out this diary that has found some really juicy nuggets about the Administration’s obsession with Iraq from articles published September 10, 2001 – revealing to say the least – if not downright incriminating:
http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/10/12645/0517
If I was there, I would read my report in exactly as bland a voice.
Someone should tell him Iraq IS and HAS BEEN IN A FRIGGING CIVIL WAR
arrrghhhhhhhhhhhhh
The follow up talking points are in.
Fox website only highlight
“Breaking News Petraeus: Drawdown May Come Next Summer”
A clear sign that even the hardenned kool aid drinkers want this kind of news desperately.
They do not see a carrot dangling.
Ed*ard Teller @ 50
I do not propose that we be docile but there’s a fine line between accomplishing something and being a joke. I have the greatest respect for Medea Benjamin. My son met her at the Crawford camp and said she was very impressive. But there are different ways of doing things and it is dangerous to your cause to become an object of laughter.
hackworth @ 52
How convenient for oil
robbingsharing.There it is – Iran has said it will fill any vacuum in Iraq.
Hugh @ 34
i admire your diligence on your list.
it is appreciated.
CROCKER: “I cannot guarantee success in Iraq.”
Again, what exactly is US “success” in the Iraqi civil war?
this is all a drumbeat for getting support to invade iran pure and simple…
Looking for volunteers to live blog while Christy picks up Peanut from the school bus.
Crocker is obviously filler designed to take the heat off of Petraeus.
C just denied that Iraq is in civil war, more raising of the specter of Iran, now raising the threat of a resurgent “al Qaeda”.
Well if anyone had any doubts, Petraeus and Crocker have shown they are nothing but Bush-league propagandists.
ooo he said “an iraq that falls into civil war” so that means it’s NOT in one right now right?
Biodun @ 73
No one really expected you could, dickhead!
Amb. Crocker: “Our current course is hard. Any alternatives are far worse.”
what he is doing now is the ‘hello’ larry craig version of tapping his foot.
notice the wide stance.
Praise Jeebus! He’s finished!
Please, – don’t ask Crocker ANY questions!!
The guy’s all over the place, deploying defective and inept analogies…
What must the kids killed at Kent State by Nixon and Mitchell think about the critics of Code Pink? What does Mario Savio think? Yes… by all means we have to be polite.
These 2 funds are a good idea. They are a minimal obligation to the Iraqis even if we pull out the troops. But who is responsible for the public infrastructure in Iraq?
kdh22 @ 79
BWA HA HA – Hiya kdh22!!!
Jeeze! That guy’s as bad as Paul Bremer
ahhhhhhhh – finally
If they ever get to questions on the stats Petraus was throwing around I sure hope someone asks about how his graphs for 2007 compare with the same months for 2006. Same trend lines only at a higher level.
The ask him to project that trend line out through March 08. Same curve but higher?
Ike Skelton looks as if he’s gonna fall asleep.
kdh22 @ 69
A Saudi Embassy will facilitate the dispensing of “educational materials” for use in Iraqi schools. “educational materials” is in quotes, because typically the materials that will be supplied will promote Wahabi extremism. To our great detriment. I’m just saying.
Noooooo….don’t look at Crocker!!! It will only encourage him to answer!
Hugh 34
Thank You for all the work you do on that list, and your valuable comments!
Tremendous help to us non-pro’s ;->
Christy.
Thank you much.
I don’t blame you for cutting back on the live-blg during this endless drivel(!)by Crockuh.
I fear your head might explode.
What a bunch-a #%&!
There aren’t enuf ponies in the world….
How can these people sleep at night?!
OMG, Crock-uh has turned to Iran. No-o-o-o-o!
NO! NO! NO! Don’t you DARE go there bub!
Did he also just say WE are gonna provide permanent employment in Iraq???!
Please FIRE this man, and those he came in with!
Is Big Mitch around?
Wake the f*ck up Skelton!
This guy has been used for his droning ability……half the country is asleep now. They don’t even know what he is talking about anymore. It is all BS. He is a hack and Burocratic functionary “POST KINTETIC ENVIRONMENT??????????”ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
Yeah Joe Truck Driver is really paying attention to this. “HONEY GET ME ANOTHER BEER AND CHANGE THE CHANELL WQILL YA HUN”
help iraqis consolidate at local level strategic investment between US and iraq end of crocker.
skelton, since few min late due to microphones postpone first break. so many who have questions, i will limit to one question. while the american sons and daus are sweating and fighting as the true professionals they are, it seems key pieces of legislation have not been passed. the parliament is appears to this country lawyer that leaders and parliamentarians are sitting ? while the young men and women of america do their best to bring security. announced in jan feb endless surge, since then iraqi essentially no progress measures to bring about national reconciliation why shd next 6 months be any diff
Spinsterina @ 80
Far worse for oil barons and war profiteers! For everyone else, any alternatives are better than the status quo, although every option at this point is going to be ugly.
These should be our “days of rage”. By and large my party shames me.
Oy vey. Here we go again. Another 30 minute answer.
Ed*ard Teller @ 50
Yeah, can you picture Martin Luther King in a hot pink Wonder Woman costume shrieking on the floor of a hearing room?
Screw you for assuming that anyone that doesn’t behave like a jackass is docile and accommodating. I distributed four more “IMPEACH” yard signs in my neighborhood today. Not good enough for you?
LS @ 65
Thomas Ricks covered most of these points in his book, Fiasco. Al Gore also addresses these points in The Assault on Reason. I don’t think this is new information, but it certainly was never highlighted, was it? Good catch, and appreciated for giving it some more exposure.
Excellent first question!
Helen @ 86
Hey there Helen! Hope all is well. Well, ‘well’ in these times is purely relative.
Biodun @ 83
He reminds me of Winston Churchill’s description of an inept MP, “A modest man with much to be modest about.”
Crocker is trying to sound like a professor…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
No, we do not have to be polite. The people who were protesting the Vietnam war did not dress in pink. They were serious and willing to take the heat. I admired them and wished that I could have been with them. I wish that I could be in DC for the march this month but I can’t. I would do many things but I would not dress in pink and give the wingnuts the ammo to call us wingnuts.
Skelton – Young men and women are dying and parlimentarians are sitting on their thumbs. Since the surge was passed and began nothing has moved forward. Why should the next FU be any different than it has been inthe past?
Croker: Everyone is frustrated. These are complex legislative endeavors. It is going to be difficult.
theWalrus @ 100
Our priest used to ‘Oy vey’ all the time during homilies.
BigMitch @ 91
That sounds plausible, just not probable.
Wordsmith @ 94
Hey, I just saw Crocker swallow nervously….
Now you on the frying pan….
Crocker isn’t being specific regarding progress in Iraq….
Benchmarks who needs stinking benchmarks….
Crocker: If, might, maybe, could…
Crocker looks like Spock’s father.
crocker you i american people frustrated every day lack of progress. as laid out in my statement extremely complex endeavors. iraqis engaging fundamental issues of the state unresolved among them. difficult and will take time. efforts over summer aug 26 iraq leaders committed to engage on issues and principle deBaathfctn and provincial power: they are serious, capable of coming together to thrash issues in serious matter, that said, i frankly do not expect rapid progress thru these benchmarks, which arent end in selves but means to end national reconciliation. important maintain tactical…advance national reconcilation when…contributing additional resources to anbar, security forces, certainly share disappointment progress slow, but not mean has been no progress
he’s frustrated.
“every day.”
/snark
Code Pink, please?
we got a live one for ya.
Spinsterina @ 101
Pu-leeze! i’m not criticizing anyone here, but the American population at large and those who mock the brave people of Code Pink.
benchmarks! Hugh…
crocker: important remember surge hit full force june. not enough time, more time see impact of improved security, all iraq leaders have acknlwdg taken place, then political compromise becomes easier
and so the killing goes on b/c we cant set the benchmarks….in other words we started this shit and we’re leaving it for the dems to try to clean it up
Crocker finally mentioned benchmarks at the behest of Skelton. He says things will take time although we have been at this for 4 1/2 years. He says that he believes that the Iraqi leadership is capable of making decisions on reconciliation although again he gives no evidence of this happening.
Thank you EG and Helen for live blogging.
lantos: thank you both extremely thoughtful serious testimony. you have juxtaposed your proposal for token withdrawal w hypothetical with hypothetical rapid and irresponsible withdrawal. you better than i do there are very impressive members of miliatary with outstanding credentials who favor much more rapid but responsible withdrawal of american forces. would you be so kind as to comment. contrasting these two ideas does not do justice
Lantos is good…
Iffy answer.
Success in Iraq….WHEN WE LEAVE!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
I am not criticizing their effort, I am criticizing their choices of setting. I think I have made that VERY clear. I do not think that it is productive to dress up in a sparkly pink statue of Liberty costume with the aim of getting arrested on TV. I also doubt that there are many in the battlefields of iraq who would think it productive, either, although I can’t speak for them.
I don’t yell, and I don’t capitalize, but this comment is unnecessarily accusatory and makes me very upset. I had hoped we were not still eating our young here, but maybe I was wrong.
The DLC and most of the D establishment think of bloggers in the same way some here have sponken of Code Pink, that is as rabblerousing, embarassing baffoons. Let’s keep our anger where is belongs–on the neocons, war criminals, and media shills who made Iraq (and Iran) possible.
kdh22 @ 69
Sunni AQ, allegedly, Saudi, were blamed for 9ll. All the important Saudi’s were flown out of the US after the attacks, when all commercial flights were banned.
Ergo, Saudi Arabia is our BFF, in the region.
cudda shudda wudda
I’ve been slipping in & out today, have any of our critters asked probing questions, or are they as lame as the expected answers. From the sounds of it, we need to press the Senate on Wednesday to put P & C under oath & ask serious questions.
That would be ‘the surge’ number of troops – withdrawal!
Lantos brings up the strawman of “precipitate withdrawal”.
P fudging on withdrawal. Doesn’t mention numbers.
Yes, thank you, livebloggers.
Lantos.. called BS on cut & run accusers!
petraeus: i recommended substantial force reduction 5? force helped us substantially reachgains our troups fought so hard for. posing that, very substantial withdrawal. operational and stragetic conditions which take into account strain on ground forces in particular. this is the approach to sustain gains we have achieved, build on them, transition to iraqi security forces assap without rushing to failure and also still contining effort against al q and extremists and those supported by iranian qust? force. not sure which proposal you referring to
Spinsterina @ 101
amen
Biodun @ 106
I’m sure you meant well, ahem.
I married a professor, and he doesn’t sound at ALL like that. ;-P
yellowsnapdragon @ 128
Seconded
Shorter P: we’ll get back to where we were before the Surge™ and any further reduction in troop numbers is scheduled for ‘?’
Is this the level of questioning we’re going to hear? Is anyone going to ask to see the data P. used to make his determination?
Back when Cheney said FU to Leahy, it was obvious the administration took the gloves off. It’s time for the Dems to take their gloves off. If they don’t, we’re lost.
Rushing to failure? Hasn’t that been what the US military been doing for 4 1/2 years?
At least Petraeus says “Al Qaeda in Iraq.”
lantos: responsible news media reports, others say there can be a more rapid and responsible withdrawal, both active and retired favor considerably more rapid than you do, our global security requirements seem not to be part of the calculation you are making, you have no responsibility for afghanistan and elsewhere
yellowsnapdragon @ 128
I was just about to post something similar to this. It is valid to debate appropriate tactics, but lets not turn on each other.
We need to all work together for the enormous struggle we have ahead of us.
Part of P’s answer was a riff on As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down. Haven’t we been through this before?
I stand my comment.
It is true that Patreous and Crockers report do not line up with the GAO and the retired Generals report.
So how will the “cakewalk” zealots drum up support for a military strike on Iran with this report?
Move on must have gotten copies of these reports. How did they know?
petraeus: admiral? supports me as does army chief of staff. i dont know among them any rapid withdrawal. im at a loss, im commander in iraq, my best professional advice, multinational force, represented in my recs. did take into account strain in ground forces. my last job responsible for 18 schools centers. fort benning last friday lts and non coms address same fact. factored in, but multinational force commander, provide to my chain of command, how to accomplish mission we have at this time
Lantos: thank you very much next question to ambassador on diplomatic surge
apologies for somewhat OT (but mired in the same petro-corruption slick)
This won’t be Al-Queda.
This will be Mexican domestic groups opposed to the de facto dictatorship on our southern border.
PS – and a fond “welcome back” to the edit function. We’ve missed you, little code.
“Diplomatic surge!” :)
zennurse @ 127
Yes, so would people be so kind to stop criticizing CodePink?
There are all kinds of people that call themselves Liberal. We should be accepting of our variety. We’re all on the same side trying to end the killing.
Adie @ 138
“Most of my friends are professors.” I like professors. I said he was trying to sound like one. Assuming the air of a professor. And failing. (Disclosure: I’m a refugee from academia.)
Maybe someone should ask Gen Petraeus if the mission he has been given in Iraq is the appropriate on. Since he seems to be saying that GIVEN his mission, he is making his recommendation on how best to handle it.
lantos: this administration hostile to diplomacy initiatives to governments we are hostile with. we wouldnt have relations with libya, others, done by others and not not the administraiton. you have been allowed to participate in circumscribed meetings with ira?ian officials. what about syria and ? expanded diplomatic efforts
BigMitch @ 111
I ran across this, which I used to read some stuff. The last book, Richard Wires’ book on terminology is one I actually bought. I was stationed in Augsburg, traveled extensively, visiting many areas of interest including Dachua. I’m not an expert by any means, just interested.
we all have a part to play ingetting things done to preserve democracy in america..and getting us out of iraq asap
When in the hell are we going to get a damned cross examination? This is slow motion bullshit. Where the hell is Whitehouse when we need him?
How can Patreous say that there is “improvement’ when 70,ooo Iraqi people have been leaving a month.
Wonder if the 2 million Iraqi refugees are listening to C-Span and this report? Sure would like to hear their comments? (you know the ones that are still alive)
4jkb4ia @ 151
Also known as a diplomatic woody or chubby.
Quite a few of our “Founding Fathers” were obnoxious rabble-rousers. Not polite or well behaved. There is room enough in LiberalLand for the noisey and the quiet.
hackworth @ 129
OSB=Saudi=Sunni, yes?
Malaki, al Sadr, most of Iran=Shiite, yes?
Ergo, chaos, confusion, ever-changing manipulation=Cheney,Bush,Israel happy, yes?
I recall many Nixon Republicans talking about how the hippies dressed and their hair when they were demonstrating against the ‘Nam horror.
So why are the Iraqi people who are alive and still in the country waiting in lines for gasoline?
Thank you, egregious, for stepping up to the plate to live blog until CHS can continue.
Not commenting any more right now to preserve the servers for this live blog…
crocker: experience negotiating with iraNians, after 9/ll brought us together with them, for a certain period had pretty good success on formation of afghan interim govt, warlords, related issues. have that as perspective when i held meetings w iranian counterparts in iraq, found completely different atmosphere than that which i experienced in 01 02. i laid out concerns we had over iranian activity damanging to iraq security, but found no readiness on iranian side to engage seriously on these issues. impression after couple of rounds, they interested in appearance of discussion, seen at table with US rather than actually doing serious business. i would like to as first step iranians taking some measures on ground to qualititvly improve iraqi security. if they willing, we’re prepared discuss other areas beneficial coopertion, see where it goes from there. right now havent seen sign earnestness or seriousness
touche kathy/fozzetti…maybe had we been a bit more loud possibly we wouldn’t be here listening to bushco bullshit
Richardson’s statement on the Crocker/petraeus statements:
http://tpmelectioncentral.com/…..o_task.php
Crocker like to say things are complex by sounding complex himself. And not very convincing. His syntax is faux academic.
In contrast to Lantos’s clarity.
Bush and Cheney threaten to bomb Iran. Now tell me again why Iran should go out of its way to help us out in Iraq.
“I don’t capitalize, but this comment is unnecessarily accusatory and makes me very upset.”
Well now… I wouldn’t want to upset you. ;0)
i’ll sitback and lurk a bit to give mods a breather lol
Adie @ 138
Another failure on the part of Crocker. But he is trying to be professorial.
How appropriate to the dog and pony show here, the Barnum and Baily circus train just went by on it’s way into Portland.
I thought Crockers statement that Iraq is a “traumatized society” was the most honest statement during the hearing so far.
Our sanctions, our invasion have traumatized the Iraqi people far more than our support of Saddam who traumatized the Iraqi people.
Twain @ 107
Many in the 60s did the equivalent of dressing in pink to draw attention to themselves, and hence to the ludicrousness of the pro-war groups. (I know I was there). One important thing about these tactics is that they spread the width of the political field -like an elastic- allowing those who fell they have to be more in the center to move toward the left, because the far left has differentiated itself as a further away fringe. People like O’liey, Limpballs, Savage and Coulter have effectively done the same for the right. For them this is seen as intentional- and as a smart strategy of political engagement.
Dodd Campaign spokeswoman Colleen Flanagan released the following
statement on the accuracy of General Petraeus’ report:
“The fact that there are questions about General Petraeus’ report is
not surprising given that it was brought to you by this White House.
In contrast, independent report after report indicates that the whack-
a-mole strategy has made this the bloodiest summer of the war. And by
the General’s admission, the so-called surge has not achieved its goal
of political progress. But even more fundamentally, debating the
merits of a tactic when the strategy that underlies it is failed is
nothing more than a distraction from the work that needs to be done to
bring this war to a close.”
lantos: in opening statement i referenced al maliki, he has other ?friends in region meaning in iran. lot of current membership of iraq leadership lived in iran. how seriously is this statement to be taken, is it possible maliki or others to turn to iran as another friend
crocker: things said in heat of moment, not best way to say. in contrast maliki statement today? he said iraq needs multinational force to be present under conditions that prevail now in iraq. signator to 26th communique that called for long partnership between iraq and US. prime minister recognizes challenge iran poses. one example when iran backed militia attacked ? one of shias holiest shrines on holy day the prime minister responded kerbala forcefully, going down there himself. he does not speak farsi, not much time in iran. much longer sojourn in syria and other arab states. important to understand iraq is arab state
Bustednuckles @ 174
Oh, the irony!
Where the hell is Whitehouse when we need him?
Amen!
He sounds like a professor and maryann.
Crocker: Sometimes in the hear of the moment, things are said blah, blah, blah…
Well, no shit! I’m sure the Representative didn’t know that when he asked about Malicki’s comment about having “other friends in the area.”
crocker both sunni and shia feel strongly about being arab, different language and history, 8 year war against iran. some make mistake saying if shia they are with iran. that manifestly shown not the case
petraeus: central command did do analysis for admiral fallon, look several years down road for footprint UNsecurity council resolution. discussions we had had to do w mission shift, reassured me other day as well, fully supports recommendations i have made
chair: thank you. Hunter up
Richmond @ 177
Wordsmitsh @ 156 —
I’ve bookmarked that source. Thank you for it. It looks very interesting. I want to return to it after this show is over.
It is obvious now that Saudi A will play a central role in sucking out Iraqi oil. Saudi’s will be a willing partner with the US in oil sharing. Why wouldn’t they? Its no skin off their nose. How did our oil get end up under their sand? /s
Ann in AZ @ 182
He’s just another neo-condescending a$$hole.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 171
Out of line and unnecessary.
juslin @ 19
huh.Wordsmith @ 38
i agee ,,, its the USA.
Richmond @ 177
Why are we devoting so much time to arguing about Code Pink??
hackworth @ 186
hehe…and DING!
Crocker:
Well, isn’t that a nice polite way to describe a civil war? “Budding debate,” huh?
Who exactly concedes this? This is beyond even “senior government official” anonymous-source level — following a couple of passive-voice sentences, it’s clearly meant to put is words into the mouths of “Iraqis in general” or government officials.
If there was any actual evidence that anyone was “putting government performance ahead of sectarian gains” rather than just saying they need to (when asked by Americans), we might have a different ballgame here.
Who the heck is the Iraqi Army actually fighting and getting killed in large numbers by???
Is Betr. flirting with Lantos? or ?
Tell those CodePinkos to whip out the spritz bottle & a squeegie.
Oh I like Lantos ;->
Ewww, Crocker doesn’t! heh.
cuttin’ a little deep there with that scalpel?
I’m gonna label Crock “squid”. Throws a cloud of ink into the water when he’s poked.
Desperately trying to put Lantos to sleep, but it’s.not.working. ;->
Squid’s next gambit is to try the raised, ever-so-innocent eyebrows. But he’s outta practice. The brows sag. The gaze drifts down and away. This is hard stuff, am*assadoring in nebbanebbaland…
Oh, that’s clever, “Sorry to go on at length, but this is an important issue.”
REALLY?!
uh-oh. Betr. gonna jump in, tag-team style.
SAVE! more or less… heck-of-a-pair!
CHS Said: It’s “gimme more FUs day.”
He doesn’t have to ask. It’s a done deal.
The *only* thing that could possibly help end this war sooner rather than later (much later) would be mass demonstrations and civil disobediences on a scale rivalling those of the ’60s (which I attended).
Kathy/Fozzetti @ 161
Also to OKK:
The Founding Fathers were rabble rousers because of no representation. We have representation, and those Proud Papas made sure that the rules for Congress allowed for minority views and protests. I haven’t seen any criticism or condemnation of Code Pink for its civil disobedience. The sole type of criticism has been aimed at its methodology of disruption and its disregard for the rules of conduct.
As to OKK’s remark about the dead KSU students – having lived a couple of towns away, being a hs student at the time myself, with parents of friends who were on faculty and had joined the student protests, I think your analogy doesn’t fit. The Nat’l Guard troops acted illegally, and finally, there is videotape to prove it. Comparing the tactics of KSU students to Code Pink committee hearing disrupters is apples to oranges. Code Pink is attempting to disrupt a hearing – a venue in which we are all entitled to hear and have proceed uninterrupted. The students were trying to simply send a message – they did not disrupt any public process with the exception of being present on government property.
Please don’t escalate this on these liveblogging threads.
But just in case Christy or another author reads this, I would respectfully request to have a post about this issue at some future time. Civil disobedience is an important topic, and as it is being used visibly, it would be useful to explore it on FDL when tempers are cooled and reason, tolerance and respectful discourse can be cultivated and encouraged.
Just my .02 which isn’t worth the metal from which it’s coined.
liavc @ 180
He’s in the Senate, not the House.
hunter: analysis where is iraqi army, officer corps, nco corps, instrument for reconciliation between sunni shia kurd. tell us how you feel the nation and the people of iraq in those communities perceive the army, as an institution of value with professionalism, stil those with sectarian loyalty, where do we stand since we started build this army from scratch?
petraeus: iraq may not need operational criteria, shortage of noncom officers. there are numerous battalions in the fight, taking casualties. regardless of readiness assessment, some moved to iraqi control, may be in lead with us supporting. unevenness. force seen by irqi people as more professional less sectarian than the police elements. more is needed. there are specific units in iraq army which both PM maliki and we want to take action. by and large standing and fighting and taking casualties. shortage of officers. expansion of forces considerably bigger than original plan, esp since sectarian violence of 06 and into 07. we support very much their expansion, they take on variety of initiatives, take back former officers, service in army, government employment, part of army that was dis-established way back. one thing to trainyoung troopers, another to produce staff officer or brigade commander and that is their challenge now. military 4 academies 1000 new lts a year, war college, need much more capacity. basic training capacity, in anbar province and police academy. army national instument viewed as, for quite some time dearth volunteers in anbar. very few would serve in army or police. now not problem in sunni areas. families intimidated. just as they view not voting in elections a mistake.
‘budding debate about federalism’…and who exactly gets to dole out PSAs and reap the dividends from said agreements.
Is ANYONE going to mention the refugee crisis in Iraq? The thousands that have left? The neighboring countries that are letting them in and the ones that aren’t????
again… we invaded a country that did not invade us and we’re upset that they dare to fight back!! W T F!!!
Dear Casual Observer:
As you know from my earlier correspondence, I again spoke out this morning against the President’s surge on the floor of the House of Representatives. I have attached the speech below, but you can also view it here:
Shortly, at 11:30 am CST, General Petraeus will present the President’s latest report on Iraq before a joint meeting of the House Armed Services and the Foreign Affairs Committees, with questioning continuing until 5:30 pm CST. In anticipation of that testimony, I have also sent the communication attached below to my Democratic Colleagues along with Paul Krugman’s recent column from last Friday.
I welcome your continued good counsel.
*********************
Rep. Lloyd Doggett
“SURGE FAILS”
September 10, 2007
The troop surge in Iraq has clearly failed to achieve its purpose. The troop surge has failed not because of our troops-but because of politicians in Iraq and in Washington, who have not done their jobs. The President’s surge is as successful as the President’s boast to capture Osama bin Laden “dead or alive.”
We now have three reports from entities at least somewhat independent from the heavy hand of the Bush propaganda machine that confirm the obvious. The National Intelligence Estimate provided the thinking of the intelligence community that instead of getting better, the situation in Iraq will get worse-”the Iraqi government will become more precarious over the next 6 to 12 months.”
The Independent Commission on the Security Forces concluded that the Iraqi Interior Ministry is “dysfunctional.” And the National Iraqi Police is in such dire shape that it cannot be fixed and should be disbanded.
The Government Accountability Office’s report card on Bush’s policies judged by his own criteria is a resounding F, a clear failure, a fatal flop, a fiasco, with only 3 of 18 benchmarks met.
Today, General Petraeus can cite whatever selective statistics that his political bosses may permit him to disclose, but the facts are that each and every month this year has involved more deaths of American troops than each month, including August, last year. And despite the ethnic cleansing that has already displaced 3 million Iraqis, the increased violence continues to inflict an increasingly deadly toll on Iraqi families.
What is life like for those who survive? Almost half earn less than $1 a day, 70% lack access to adequate water, and one third remain in dire need of emergency food aid.
When the surge was announced, the White House said: “wait til summer.” As summer approached, the cry was “wait til September.” Now that this much overrated September has arrived, the new cry is “wait til next year.”
The only real mystery about President Bush’s September decision, has been what new excuse he would offer to justify staying the same old failed course. And as the American people have seen through the duplicity of every other excuse, the President has returned to his original ploy- invoking 9/11. Coincidentally we get this new report on the anniversary of 9/11. He claims that “the same folks that are bombing . in Iraq were the ones who attacked us in America on September 11.” That is false, and he knows it is false. But fear with deception is all he has left to rationalize the pain of so many, the sacrifice of the brave, and the loss of $3 billion every week on this debacle.
As usual, this President is dead certain and dead wrong. What he seeks is war without limits-war without end. Under his direction, General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker propose a war that continues for probably another decade-the George Bush trillion dollars, 15 years war.
Now Congress must respond to the President’s propaganda surge with a truth surge, with a memory surge that reminds America of repeated false cries of progress and phony excuses that have only brought our families more insecurity. Congress must learn from the courage of our troops. Appeasement will not stop this wrongheaded administration policy. More blank checks will only drain our national treasury while fueling more death and destruction that only endangers American families.
And so today we respectfully thank General Petraeus and all who serve America. We know you will do your job, but it is long past time for all in Congress to do ours. Our best hope remains a safe and orderly, fully-funded phased redeployment that begins immediately.
David Gergen on CNN is making sense. He says all this is a fantasy (paraphrasing) and slamming Croker for his fake rosy scenario.
Wow.
petraeus: small elements that need to be dealt with in terms of sectarian influence
hunter: final question, crocker team and iranians, both of you said deadly military equipment continues to flow from iran. has it increased or decreased since ?
petraeus: we believe it has increased, more ?? and lesser rocket attacks. brief dropoff couple weeks, we do not see sign abating. kutz force itself have been pulled out of country and lebanese trainers pulled out.
chair: thank you, 5 minute break after Ros-L from FL
Do you notice how they do not talk about actual numbers with the Iraqi army or about their readiness?
Can you imagine being an Iraqi watching or listening to this group of Imperialist analyzing and determining just what is going to take place in your “once upon a time” country?
And we wonder why some/lots hate us?
theWalrus @ 195
I agree. How to get from here to there, is the question. Music was a big part of it, but as we learned from the experience of the Dixie Chicks, it’s not going to happen.
smackdown!!lol
Peterr @ 197
I know; I was speaking metaphorically. Just wish there was someone like Whitehouse to ask insightful and follow-up questions like he does.
Ileana the idiot
Thanks you to whoever spoke back to this despicable piece of shit. It’s about friggin’ time.
Peterr @ 197
I knew that, but was waiting for someone to step forward with our(firepups) questions !
Ms “I hate Moslems” is up.
juslin @ 208
Who was that!
If I weren’t such a gentleman I’d call Ileana-Ros Lehtinen a rightwing skag.
-GSD
Biodun @ 153
ZZZZZZZZZZ……Over at the WHite House:
ITS WORKING ITS WORKING….No one knows what the hell he is talking about and more importantly they don’t care HIGH FIVES ALL AROUND!
liavc @ 209
Thanks I thought the same
Ros-L:
point of order, no one has to distance themselves from something they didnt associate themselves with. a man not sure who
Ros- impact of precipitous withdrawal, failure, what can we do to get more countries follow thru on monetary pledges. what are short and long term strategic interests for US in iraq and consequences withdrawal before conditions warrent NIE notes iran contines funding weaponry training to iraq militia inside iraq in bid to increase syrian influence and presence. comment on radical iranian influence if US rapidly withdraws. what do to prepared iraqi people and our own to counter this thread. our current forces, alternatives far worse, elaborate for us on nations security and interest withdraw prematurely, lastly, committments other nations in region, from friendly nations to help iraq w reconstruction. how can we have those translate concrete action.
I now give you Christy Hardin Smith.
FFS, no one is saying that Code Pink has to be “polite”. I’d be happy if they just used their brains once in a while.
To Maliki and other Iraqi leaders – Puppets only need apply. The US has designed your tax code, how much of your own oil revenues you can keep, oil prices, everything. If you don’t cooperate, we’ll find another puppet.
OHHHHHH MISSION SHIFT…..I’m getting very excited now!
Anybody know where Tay-Ron is?
Rep Ros-Lehtinen is a “radical zionist”. Just could not believe how she demanded Move on apologize to Patreous for calling him “Betreous”. She should start with some apologies to the Iraqi people that she has been part and parcel to slaughtering, an apology to the Lebanese people for her support of Israels invasion of Lebanon, and an apology to the Palestinians for pushing hard for cutting off all aid including Humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people.
Ros- Lehtinen better get busy with the apologies.
Adie @ 216:
You tryin’ to say somethin’?
Biodun. refugee?
Keep teaching us. okay?
215 was supposed to have ;->
N=1 @196 -
Spot on! We are ’sounding’ really angry with each other over this issue and that shouldn’t be the case. It’s the method, not the message or the ability to protest. It would make a great discussion topic, though, another time.
liavc @ 190
Because I’ve spent over the past 4 years uncountable hours, hundreds of my own dollars, attending meetings, protesting, sending emails, sending care pkgs to Iraq soldiers from our peace group, organizing, writing letters to the editor, etc. and it is extremely frustrating to watch Code Pink damage any sympathy the public or congresspeople might have for anti-war views. They are actually damaging to the cause. And to have people suggest that they are courageous or effective does make me angry.
Commenting in a blog post is an entirely legitimate place for free speech and debate. The ultimate goal is not to simply piss off the powerful or hear the sound of our own voices disrupting their hearings but to actually accomplish something politically. “Daring” to cause a ruckus isn’t necessarily going to help and I believe it hurts out cause.
How ironic that their foolishness is highly regarded as free speech here, but we are encouraged to refrain from criticizing them. Now who’s advocating “politeness”? Feh.
Code Pink may not be effective politically but they are necessary. Their absence would be noted by the MSM.
Does anyone know if any Democrat with balls will be asking questions when the hearing resumes? Otherwise, I’ll turn it off.
Is it really true that Petraeus and Crocker are going on Fox tonight to do an exclusive interview with Brit Hume?
Jeezus…Betty Crocker is spreading it on thick!
1,592 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen theWalrus and the Firepup Patriots:
“The *only* thing that could possibly help end this war sooner rather than later (much later) would be mass demonstrations and civil disobediences like those of the ’60’s…”
Bless your patriotic heart, brother Walrus…there must be an echo in here. Stand the fuck up America…use it or lose it!!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND LOOK THE BASTARDS RIGHT IN THE EYE!!!
There has to be at some point a plan for the Iraqis citizens who are vulnerable to attack when the US military redeploys out of Iraq. What kind of humanitarian effort will be made for all those men, women, and children who would targeted for attacks for reasons like religious persecution, or affiliation with the US military?
This rosy picture of a some future point in time of a contained cooperative democratic Iraq that respects all non-secular groups in a equal fashion is just incredible…
liavc @ 229
Yes. It’s true.
Christy has Part IV of live blogging. Please stay on-topic and limit the oneliners to save the servers, thanks.
The Petraeus/Crocker Show Part IV
liavc @ 229
This program brought to you by the good folks at KY Jelly.
-GSD
N=1 @ 196
Spinsterina @ 226
Disagree with you fundamentally on this. Your so-called politeness will also be attacked as anti-patriotic as ill-mannered, and as against the best interests of this country. Get off your high horse. There are many different ways of carving a goose.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 232
Using that kind of language makes me uncomfortable, and worse yet, certain media outlets might lift that quote and paint us all as foul-mouthed America-haters, thereby ruining all of our hard work. I wish you’d be more civil ;)
BigMitch @ 207
Unfortunately, the American people have not been allowed to see the real face of this illegal war. The WH in cahoots with the media have done a fantastic job of not letting us in on the utter tragedy of this war. More American would be inclined to demonstrate if their evening news showed what was really going on there.
egregious @ 204
That would be kuds. Arabic for Jerusalem, or more specifically, the Temple Mount where the Dome of the Rock is located.
The military is dickering with facts I think.
Today there were 9 troops killed and all but one death is attributed to vehicle accidents.
Accidents are ‘non-hostile’ so they are not used statistically as war related.
One of the ‘accidents’ happened when a vehicle flipped over and caught on fire…kind of like what happens when a vehicle gets hit by an IED.
The surge is working…..Rinse and repeat.
-GSD
Twain @ 188
I just love it when someone attempts to lecture me. Do you have any more for me?
Are your sure that General Petraeus is not talking about serge?