Watch as the MSM continues to pretend that there is no objective right or wrong and that any conflict between Democrats and Republicans, Iraq war opponents and supporters, fans and opponents of the Constitution, is nothing more than “he said, she said”:
Iraq debate is sea of statistics
By RICHARD LARDNER
WASHINGTON – In vertical bars of blue, green, gray and red, a briefing chart prepared by the Defense Intelligence Agency says what Gen. David Petraeus won’t.
Insurgent attacks against Iraqi civilians, their security forces and U.S. troops remain high, according to the document obtained by The Associated Press. It is a conclusion that the well-regarded Army officer who is the top U.S. commander in Iraq is expected to try to counter when he and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador in Baghdad, testify before Congress on Monday and Tuesday.
More than four years into a conflict initially thought to be a cakewalk, the war has become a battle of statistics, graphs and conflicting assessments of progress in a country of more than 27 million people.
The defense intelligence chart makes the point, with figures from Petraeus’ command in Baghdad, the Multinational Force-Iraq. Congressional auditors used the same numbers to conclude that Iraqis are as unsafe now as they were six months ago; the Bush administration and military officials also using those figures say that finding is flawed.
With so much depending on how the statistics are collected and interpreted, policymakers in Washington are confused.
Rep. Ike Skelton, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, summed up the situation during a hearing last week on the report by congressional auditors at the Government Accountability Office.
“What is really going on? What standards should we look at? Where do we go from here?” asked Skelton, D-Mo.
For every positive step, a negative one follows.
Oh, it’s just a sea of statistics! Help, help! Save me, General Petraeus!
The whole article goes on in that vein. The point is to make everything seem Oh So Terribly Confusing — so much so that even we high-powered media folk can’t make head or tail of it, so why not just leave it to the experts in the Bush Administration?
Arrrrrrrrrgh. This article pretends to be deep and authoritative, but it’s all about muddying the waters.
No acknowledgement that Petraeus is Bush’s sockpuppet, reciting a “report” written by the Bush White House. No acknowledgement that Bush and Petraeus have done this same dog-and-phony show before. No acknowledgement that the Bushistas have been fudging, seriously fudging, the data they control — the “sea of statistics” isn’t quite so confusing and seemingly contradictory when all the lies are stripped out, but the picture that’s painted isn’t one that Team Bush wants us to see. And certainly no acknowledgement that the general public isn’t buying the Bush-Petraeus con job.
And the members of the GOP/Media Complex wonder why I call them that.



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hi PW
not really off topic, this is about the attack on 9/11 which the president used to invade Iraq
perris @ 273
this is really a must read
one of the authors of “the path to 9/11 is under gag order not to discuss his issues with the movie but he defies the gag order as any patriot would
you really have to get a read of that entire article
do-si-do @ 1
That too!
None. Just me, here?
OK, I’ll tell everyone you’re here PW!
Stats? If you don’t like what they’re telling you; change the formula.
Hi Phoenix Woman, thanks!
“al qaeda is part of the sectarian violence” – Petraeus
This is the opposite of what Chimpy has been saying all along, that they are completely separate and unique factions.
What? No talk in the MSM of shifting goalposts?
(Actually, I vaguely remember one comment to that effect out of dozens on NPR)
Bob in HI
Petraeus is a willing pawn of GWB.
That’s how he understands his oath.
And more importantly, that’s his personality since he was a kid.
You want competence? Choose this guy.
You want honesty? Tell him what honesty is, and he’ll deliver it.
You want a person you like? Well, I wouldn’t choose this fuck over a whole bunch of people I’ve known.
General BetrayUs. General RestrainUs. General DetainUs. or General Confusion. You decide.
Talk about outrageous clothes, did anyone take a good look at how Gen. P was dressed on tv earlier today.
Did anyone else feel that Dems were outnumbered and outblathered today?
I don’t know, according to Rep Payne, Dem-NJ, on the PBS Newshour, it’s not that complicated, the surge is working (he repeated it several times), but there are problems on the political front. Statistics schmatistics! Who needs damn statistics, anyways.
Indeed would seem that unfortunately Rep Payne had not read the GAO report, (both Dems seem totally unaware of Iraqi public opinion or just didn’t think to mention it). Payne did, in his cringe-inducing performance keep referencing how we found no weapons of mass destruction. It almost seems that the always reliably pro-administration PBS Newshour (thank the gods that be that the 30% that still supports Bush includes our media stars) picked out the most inarticulate, embarassingly ill-informed Dems to make the opposition case.
Stunningly bad performance.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Yeah — all that fruit salad!
I did not get the Representative from New Jersey’s name–may have been Berman–but whoever it was, he had it right. “Not once” , he said,”have I heard you (Petraeus) or Amb Crocker mention The Global War on Terror”.
If troop escalations were to do anything, they should have succeeded measurably against the GWOT.
And The General continued to talk about his kinetic ass-whupping on “Al Quieda”. He said it repeatedly. I think for variety he threw in “ethno-sectarian violence” as though it were a distraction. Al Quieda wasn’t in Iraq before we showed up, so why celebrate killing more of them now than last year, General?
I thought the Dems were better than I expected.
The Republics were as bad as ever.
asked this downstairs and didn’t get anyone to bite;
I didn’t get a chance to read the live blog or watch the testimony but rachael maddow mentioned something that is indeed frightening and I am wondering if it was brought up here at the lake;
one of our critters asked if petraus would obey congress or the president if congress passed funding that could only be appropriated for getting our soldiers home
petraous actually said he would have to consult his lawyer
is everyone all over that?
Hi PW. Frank Rich coming up on KO!
I missed the statistics. All I heard was that by next summer, we might (emphasis on the “might”) be back where we were last year, but only if things go really well.
perris @ 19
I heard that too but came in late so I wasn’t sure the context. Yes, frightening. He’s been hanging out with Signing Statements Addington and DICK too much.
Shinzo Abe, the Japanese prime minister, has said he is ready to resign if parliament refuses to back an extension of Japan’s military support for the war in Afghanistan.
perris @ 19
P got it wrong. He’s obligated to follow the president’s orders.
perris @ 19
I don’t think the president is next in his chain of command.
not to paint with too broad a brush, but here is XTC – Generals and Majors
30,000 come home on troop rotations this coming summer anyway if no tours are again extended. How is that different from the numbers Petraeus is offering?
Frank Rich (my favorite) coming up on Olberman
It is pretty incredible that Senator Durbin actually used the word BOGUS about the Petraeus Report!
perris @ 19
I heard that on the radio while driving. Well, in all fairness, I think he would have to consult a lawyer (hopefully not John Yoo) to see what his duty was. IANAL, constitutional or otherwise. I wonder what Marcy’s response is…
And John Dean too.
Did any one hear Kos and Eli Pariser on Hardball…outstanding!
do-si-do @ 14
Maybe, after the Gonzales fiasco, when absent Goopers did not fill the air with blubber, and Alberto was left to hang all alone, twisting slowly in the wind, a New Directive has gone forth from the WH aka Ed Gillespie: Goopers, show up at your committee hearings! Smother everything with butter! Enhance obfuscation!
Bob in HI
Hello Phoenix Woman – Statistics has become a bastardized term. Because numbers are used people are fooled into thinking it is objective and “pure”.
Did Petraeus write the report himself? I’ll bet the same way GW wrote his term papers – with lots of help. Where did he get his statistics? How did he arrive at these numbers?
I had nothing but questions listening to Petraeus. But, for those who obey a uniform, without question, it is the word of God. God didn’t mention the millions of refugees. Just a detail not worthy of mention in his report.
Man, I’ve got to take up a vice. I need a good stiff drink. Only, I don’t drink. I do love to shop (mostly window).
You know, as an American person who needs to understand this or understand that, I am not only mistrustful of our administration, I am goddamn tired of being tuned out by the DC establishment and MSM as well!
Thanks for FDL!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 31
Must read before the next election for all your Repub family and friends: John Dean’s Conservatives Without Conscience.
Maybe give them a copy in their stockings….
dude @ 17
Ackerman?
Bob in HI
Rich, the Iraqis who have helped us are in great danger, and we are not letting them into the US.
bobschacht @ 37
snowbird42 @ 32
No! Hope John gets it up!
OT and not- but a thought. Randi Rhodes had a segment on the lack of protest songs now (and threats to those who do, a la Dixie Chicks now playing on my IPOD). I would love it if every now and then our wonderful pup posters would put up links to contemporary protest songsters so we could listen – and support them. Maybe even a special Protest song linki at the top of the site. We could also blast these numbers from small speakers as we walk our dogs around the dog and pony shows, as we poster the neighborhoods with Out of Iraq signs, and other public actions.
OO, KO with something about Powell from GQ. I’m not going to the 25th Anniversary of the Wall because he’s the keynote.
I don’t know who said this:
“Republicans will always hurt the working folks more on purpose than the Democrats by accident.”
I don’t believe this applies anymore.
Phoenix Woman Attack! Amazing, there is no Petraeus Report after all. But General Petraeus has proven he is a neo-conservative war criminal.
In six months they will repeat the same lying garbage. Of course! There is just endless repetition and endless war from these greedy, thieving, cowards. Petraeus has betrayed us.
Thank you for letting me rant and rave. I feel better.
I feel like it’s groundhog day, all over again – rare, amazing footage in this one. BTW, there is very little footage of either Chicago ‘68 or Kent State…:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=
Rich: Gen. P’s show today was about perhaps going into Iran. Did I get that right?
dude @ 27
None, Petraeus chose to portray necessity as a decision he had made.
Don’t watch TV!
Seek good ideas.
Loo Hoo. @ 40
Uh oh, foul mouthed femblog Larry Craig alert! Watch your phraseology. :)
Richmond @ 41
Good idea. The protest songs of the Vietnam era were part of the fabric of an entire generation and probably play a part in why so many of us who were young then are politically active as adults.
Loo Hoo. @ 38
If we let them in that may not play well with the anti-immigration crowd and the Bush base.
LS @ 45
18 1/2 minute gaps?
just in case everything wasn’t sickening enough today, Blitzer had a little blurb about an Esquire magazine interview with rumsfeld wherein he says, among other things, that Iraq hasn’t been “the success” that Afghanistan was.
Help us, Jesus. Mohammed. Goddess. Someone…..anyone…..
General Groundhog Day.
Good one.
oddmommy @ 53
No thanks to Rummy.
ignore, ignore, ignore…
Rich says Gen. Powell has been consistantly late. Is that what’s called a gross understatement?
Petraeus said this at the beginning of his statement…
Could that be true? I thought all this was out last week. In the media, they kept getting bits of stuff. What’s he talking about?
Just got an email from Leahy saying there will be more tough questioning of Petraeus/Crocker in the Senate tomorrow.
In the 6.5 hours of hearing today, I’d rate about 20 minutes as tough questioning and it was all at the end.
Richmond @ 41
Peter Rowan and Tony Rice Ahmed the Beggar Boy
Bruce Springsteen
Devils & Dust
I got my finger on the trigger
But I don’t know who to trust
When I look into your eyes
There’s just devils and dust
We’re a long, long way from home, Bobbie
Home’s a long, long way from us
I feel a dirty wind blowing
Devils and dust
I got God on my side
I’m just trying to survive
What if what you do to survive
Kills the things you love
Fear’s a powerful thing
It can turn your heart black you can trust
It’ll take your God filled soul
And fill it with devils and dust
Well I dreamed of you last night
In a field of blood and stone
The blood began to dry
The smell began to rise
Well I dreamed of you last night
In a field of mud and bone
Your blood began to dry
The smell began to rise
We’ve got God on our side
We’re just trying to survive
What if what you do to survive
Kills the things you love
Fear’s a powerful thing
It’ll turn your heart black you can trust
It’ll take your God filled soul
Fill it with devils and dust
Now every woman and every man
They want to take a righteous stand
Find the love that God wills
And the faith that He commands
I’ve got my finger on the trigger
And tonight faith just ain’t enough
When I look inside my heart
There’s just devils and dust
Well I’ve got God on my side
And I’m just trying to survive
What if what you do to survive
Kills the things you love
Fear’s a dangerous thing
It can turn your heart black you can trust
It’ll take your God filled soul
Fill it with devils and dust
It’ll take your God filled soul
Fill it with devils and dust
oddmommy @ 53
Rumsfeld interview
oddmommy @ 53
I hope these idiot Bushies keep talking because the cognitive dissonance they are espousing is working to turn the moderate Republicans away from the “bubble” contingent. My FIL is a lifelong authoritarian type Republican and he just won’t even speak politics now, wants Bush admin “to go away”. (Hand over ears, lalalalalalala)
How mature.
Did anyone call his facts into question besides the protesters?
**Arrrrrrrrrgh. This article pretends to be deep and authoritative, but it’s all about muddying the waters.***
You got that right. That’s why the talking point about being too rigorous with numbers was formulated. What better to put Americans to sleep with?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
We deserted the Hmong people of Laos after they helps the US during Vietnam. We just said, sorry, after promising them protection for their assistance. It amazes me that anyone would ever trust this country again. After they paid a terrible price we allowed them in during the Boat People exodus. Many of them reside in Oakland, California.
zennurse @ 58
I can’t wait to see Leahy grill Petraeus. He’s gonna be pissed because today was the day the White House was supposed to turn over the missing emails. I’m gonna guess it didn’t happen.
John Dean coming up on Keith.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 31
Sweetness, jez got back in time…!!! *g*
QuakerGirl @ 64
QG, we did it in Iraq in 91 too
This was after we encouraged them to rise up.
I heard Duncan Hunter definitely say that he had not “had a chance to read the Petraeus Report” in his first round…there seems to be one…also, Petraeus said that he had been in videoconference with the Admin for an entire week. Yeah, he wrote “this”, and they didn’t vet “it”…D’oh…because they told him what to put in it. No doubt they were conspiring as to what and how this would be presented. He explicitly stated that the surge and its results are based on the “mission” he was given he was just following orders to implement what the “country laid out”…he said that. His mission was to come up with the facts to fit the story and the story to fit the facts. I think he did his best, whatever that is, I guess his best is to follow orders…Jeez…Same old, same old. I call BS. I believe there is another report that this report was based upon, and I think Hunter is privy to that, otherwise why would he say that. It’s going to be in the transcript.
QuakerGirl @ 64
Well, Quakergirl:
What should the U.S. have done with respect to the Hmong and the South Vietnamese in its pull-out from Viet Nam?
QuakerGirl @ 64
And Sacramento too.
LS @ 69
OK, someone help me. Is there a written report or not?
Ah G*d/G*dess bless Keith for having Frank Rich on, challenging the Democrats over war funding, and thank you to Rich for mentioning the 2 million plus situation with the refugees, the ethnic cleansing and the fact the ChimpO has not done anything to help these poor people into this country.
Ironic , I’m listening to Dean on Rehm show.
He is saying that the people care about process in government, that we know when we’re getting the short end of the stick from the gov’t.
valletta @ 61
You know, I know a lot of Dems who actually feel guilt or shame or regret when their guys screw up in office. It actually embarrasses them. On the other hand, I cannot think of a single Republican who behaves this way when one of their guys screws up. It really is a lot like you describe “Hand over ears-lalalala.” Was it HuffPo or Raw Story who ran the article yesterday about psychological/neuirological research showing that liberals and conservatives actually do have hard-wired brain differences that affect their attitudes toward ideas?
Jonathan @ 70
And the Yards.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
Right is right. It’s a moral imperative. As it was with Vietnam.
The democratic leadership sucks!!!!!!!!! They need to grow some testicles and take a dose of viag*a. Hardball calls Iraq “quicksand” and Powell says intelligence was a lie and tossed it. What more is needed???????
Buchanan called it a big win for Bush and Im afraid he’s right. The only thing that will stop him is impeachment.
raven @ 72
There is, unless you want to read it, in which case, there isn’t.
There is, unless you want to read it, in which case, there isn’t.
Ding!
Richmond @ 41
Mark Knopfler has a new album coming out with a song called “Punish the Monkey.” It, of course, made me think of our Chimp Pres.
Richmond @ 41
Neil Young’s Let’s Impeach the President.
This whole charade is maddening. The “inside the beltway” crowd play out their kabuki dance with dueling statistics while real people die. If we are “kicking ass” as our Clown in Chief claims, why does he have to sneak in and out of Iraq? I read that an outbound aircraft with politicians on board took fire the other day. Imagine losing a few politicians. Now that’s the kind of “collateral damage” that will get these cowards moving.
valletta @ 65
I’m wondering what waking up tomorrow morning is going to be like for Gen. P. After today, he’s got to know that he does not have a good day coming with Pat and co.
rat bastahd @ 81
His song, “If this is Goodbye” isn’t really a protest song but it is based on the last phone calls of doomed people on 9/11.
I just hope the next Democratic president will grant John Dean a full pardon.
Jonathan @ 70
Right deja vu. Dear Mr. Scowcroft. I think I told raven the story of a very dear family friend from Vietnam. Maybe I’ll tell it to you one day Jonathan.
raven,
Yeah, the Yards. Yeah.
Thanks everyone for the many protest song suggestions!
mui @ 87
Indeed.
well, it’s got just the right title Wag The Dog and it’s Mark Knopfler!
Deja Vu. Dear Mr. Ford.
raven @ 90
It’s something I grew up with. The lady was practically a surrogate parent. So the refugee crisis cuts deep.
Maybe Christy and Jane can get John on the book salon with his new book, “Broken Government”? :)
Frank Probst @ 78
When they ask for it, it will be considered Executive Privilege, and there we go back into groundhog day again. “This” report might not be “that” report that “this” report is based on and which Petraeus actually did write, so he isn’t lying when he says “this” report wasn’t vetted. Otherwise, why did Duncan Hunter know there was a report. They only let “certain” Repubs know what might be going on, and they compartmentalize it when they do.
Dean says the Democrats are trying to “find their spine”. ;0)
snowbird42 @ 79
I have to agree. For all the ways we can criticize Petraeus and Crocker, they did put on a good show today. They did present the kind of face the waffling base needs to see, and were calm and well-dressed enough to put the sheeple to sleep. And, as a bonus, Code Pink will have a negative effect on these two groups, reinforcing their resistance to change. I can only hope CodePink will energize the opposing views on the War, but my impression is that they did not do that today.
Finally, MoveOn’s ad in the NYT was made to sound like a Democratic cheap-shot against Petraeus by the Republicans today. I am afraid that will be the Limbaugh-Hannity theme for a day or two.
Basically Dean just said if another Republican gets elected President his grandchildren will have to have another constitutional convention to repair the damage!
Here’s an idea for the next Demo prez: In the morning pardon Dean. In the afternoon appoint him AG.
raven @ 68
Raven – That was horrible. I remember a Kurdish woman frightened and asking why we didn’t help. As she spoke, the camera-person pointed the camera to the sky as our planes surveyed from a safe vertical distance. I still see this woman’s face contorted in pain and horror. The axis of evil was Saddam, Ronald and Daddy Bush. Saddam we knew was evil. Reagan and Bush were betrayers.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 46
They’ve got a ready-made excuse that no one has been talking much about: the Badr organization in So. Iraq.
(Emphasis added)
To what extent is Iran pulling the strings with these guys now? I don’t know; maybe Juan Cole knows.
Bob in HI
Oklahoma kiddo @ 96
I know it’s there somewhere…I had it…maybe it’s in the SUV…
dude @ 97
Limbaugh and Tonny Snow were on it like white on rice. They also yucked it up when Rush said Bin Laden articulated the democrat agenda. And I’m supposed to not be happy that someone has cancer.
The Dems need a fighter. A boxer.
Kucinich.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 99
Great idea, and if s/he ran on that s/he would be elected.
raven @ 25
the point is that this is the making of a military coup guys
this needs to get the ire from every single person and they have to jump down his throat tomorrow
Oklahoma kiddo @ 71
And central Wisconsin as well.
valletta @ 36
Got the impeachment question in with John Dean on the Diane Rehm show today.
mui @ 94
And angers me. And panics me. And brings back memories. So now I’m going to empty my trash, and watch the Britnney F-up video.
do-si-do @ 49
Now see, do-si-do. Proof that you have a filthy mind. I mean John Amato at C&L!!
perris @ 106
Ok, I was just making the point that the direct order wouldn’t come from POTUS.
raven, I remember when the Winter Soldier hearings began. It was a huge turning point in the anti-war movement, as I recall anyway.
There is footage of it in the film “Up the River” that was made for the Kerry campaign.
I am still immature, if that is what Code Pink is, and proud of it, I’d say. I would never have been able to be so measured in any testimony I would give. I really respect that, as I am always emotional, and I would have been screaming up there in the gallery today, if I had been there.
SO WHY IN THE HELL DIDN’T MOVEON.ORG TAKE THEIR FULL PAGE AD AND SUPPLY THE FACTS RATHER THAN GET INTO GRADE SCHOOL NAME CALLING. If we do not get some organization going and INFORM THE PUBLIC, as well as us progressive net-roots people, of the FACTS, we are going to get buried.
Sorry about being pissy about this, but all I am hearing on the news is the name calling that Moveon did, rather than all the other good things Moveon does. We have got to do better.
Food for thought. Bb
Jonathan @ 103
I only recently found out that he’s the candidate I really support. I knew it, but I didn’t “really” know it until I took that quiz. That was enlightening, because it was based on issues and nothing else. His wife rocks bigtime BTW. She is quite brilliant.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 97
I thoughtDean said… “scrotum!!!”
newspaperbrat @ 107
Yea, some of em are pretty good shots with an SKS if memory serves.
1,592 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Phoenix Woman and the Firedog Patriots:
eeeeeeDOGGIES…Yeah!!! Today is a great day…a bunch a women in red outfits called “bullshit” on all the very “serious” folks on national TV and in the process grabbed the “liberals” by what’s left a their balls and gave ‘em a not so playful squeeze! Make no mistake about it folks, no matter how the shills and corporate mouthpieces try and characterize Code Pink…the actions of these courageous women (and some male folks) hit the great unwashed 70% of the population that already knows the truth about Iraq.
The Democrats have nowhere to go now but to stand up to the fascists or crawl back under the bridge and watch their party blow up in the streets outside their plush offices. It doesn’t matter what “Dickless Harry Reid” or Senator Triangle Clinton do or say or how much they “tisk-tisk” about those terribly dressed “radical feminists”…the folks around the country saw people stand up and call “bullshit” to power.
These brave women have given you well mannered, well intentioned “liberals” out there a chance to make up for your parents’ surrender in 1968…you either stand up for what these folks are sayin and their right to fuck up the nicely choreographed kabuki propaganda dance of the fascists or you putcher tails back between yer legs and crawl back under the bridge…either way, the anti-war, anti-occupation movement is rollin’ and if ya don’t have the balls for it, give a donation to Move-On, jump into bed, assume the prenatal position and turn the electric blanket up ta “10″…we’ll see ya after the ‘08 elections.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE’S NO WHERE FOR ANY OF ‘EM TA HIDE ANYMORE!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 46
here’s one of the most disturbing things I’ve heard from betrayus;
he said;
“IF WE LEAVE IRAQ WOULD START TO LOOK LIKE IRAN”
exCUUUZZZEE ME!’
what the FUHRIG is THAT all about?
he is setting the table with the president for going into Iran, and if that base on their border is not ASKING for war, THEN WHAT THE FRIG IS IT?
Bb @ 113
That is what I was afraid of. I hate to say it, but I think the Bush Base is going to get a bump in the polls.
Jonathan @ 70
Don’t involved a people who will be left behind if you don’t have a contingency plan to take them with you or get them to a safe area. The war was collapsing for a long time. it didn’t happen one day by surprise. We just didn’t plan for it. Mostly, because we never intended to bring them to safety.
bg @ 113
Sore point with me. That film and Winter Soldier should have been released early in the swiftboat bullshit but Kerry’s handlers did not want that to happen. It wasn’t their strategy.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 87
Nice sentiment OKkiddo.
Let’s just hope there is a next Democratic president.
Asked if he misses Bush, Rummy say “Uhh- NO”.
Where is the Vice President? After the first gulf war, the vice president reportedly did a lot of humanitarian work with the Kurds in Northern Iraq when the no-fly zone policy was in force under Saddam. I would like it very much if the vice president puts his humanitarian hat back on and get out in front of the now Iraqi refugee crisis, this is something he knows how to do very well and I can’t understand why he seems to be missing in action on the matter. A sincere speech from him on the issue would be welcome.
here’s a thought on the eve of the 9/11 anniversary for all my flag waving neighbors out there:
This is NOT a “great country.” It never was, and it’s not now. And I, for one, don’t “love” it.
I’m tired of pseudo patriot bullshit, no matter who is spouting it.
Bb @ 114
Earlier I mentioned that I thought the headline defused the message they had below. The news media decided to focus only on the headline. If you go to the MoveOn site you can see the entire ad. It’s quite good imo.
Alecia @ 125
This is a joke, right?
Bb @ 113
I’m going to disagree here. The “Betray Us” nickname was indeed petty name-calling, but it was supremely effective petty name-calling. Nobody can remember (much less spell) his name. “Betray Us” is going to stick to him until the end of time, and all of the Republicans know it.
Frank Probst @ 129
right
Frank Probst @ 129
You mean like Wastemoreland?
Norske,
You are so right.
There is a time for being timid yet rational.
There is a time for polite restraint.
There is a time for being fearful of criticism.
And there is a time for action.
Headlines on the General’s testimony “Draw down of troops coming”.
Yep- that’s the summary!!
Interesting, John Dean talking about Fred Thompson in the Watergate years, observing that he is less authoritarian that other Repug candidates. Also says national stage will “test his mettle”.
Bb @ 114
Maybe without the name calling, you wouldn’t have heard about Moveon’s ad and their list of facts that accompanied same, at all?
Food for thought. And when are we going to stop whinging when a party of chickenhawks that has accused us of being terrorists and traitors for the past decade suddenly shifts into pearl clutching mode over all the namecalling?
Yes, and in the end, the cooked intel and the massaged books will also give truth to the question, “Petraeus or Betray Us?,” which is what the ad said. Both things were listed. It was a question. We know the answer.
oddmommy @ 125
How about hanging the American flag upside down with a Peace sign on it for 9/11. Any other creative ideas? You know, take back the silly yellow ribbon support the troops (which are all faded now) and take back the flag. For dissent.
LS @ 69
LS, I went to a dem meet-up in San Diego Saturday. Wanna guess who’s running for Duncan’s seat now that he’s running for prez? His son, Duncan Jr. (Hope you weren’t eating!)
Also, Hillary won the straw poll after a mock debate with reps of the candidates. I really enjoyed the link you put up last thread. I know most of you think I’m nuts that I like Hillary, but that link-if you have time to listen to the whole thing, about 5 minutes-shows her strength.
Sorry for the OT: Wonder if the MSM will pick up on this? Flynt got the NOLA prostitute to take a lie detector test and she passed:
http://blog.nola.com/times-pic…..ed_to.html
No way he will resign until after the Nov. election of a new Louisiana governor since Blanco is a dem.
Loo Hoo. @ 138
another political dynasty, eh?!
Alecia @ 125
Give your head a shake.
bg @ 112
The protesters should have come in waves.Hundreds and hundreds.
Alecia @ 125
I take it your tongue is jabbing your cheek. Sometimes I miss subtleness.
yeah- the people who helped us might get fucked….
But it wouldn’t be the first time- in Iraq- by a Bush..
Poppa Bush told the shiites ta rise up and take down Saddam- an he’d come in ta help em..Well they rose up- an Poppa Bush had a change of heart- then Saddam killed their shiite asses- an now Bush the Younger blames Saddam fer killin his own people- actually it was Daddy what done it!!
Most people would think that workin people up ta a revolution an then leavin em ta die is- well- not honorable.
valletta @ 137
There is supposed to be a “call in sick” strike nationwide tomorrow. I don’t know how much publicity it ever got though. Stay home sick and call Congress all freaking day. Over and over…they want groundhog day…let’s give them groundhog day, every day.
Frank Probst @ 129
JPL – Thanks for the feed back, but it misses the point. You are NOT GOING TO GET TO PUBLIC TO LOOK UP MOVEON.ORG, rather they are going to read the ad and assume from there, right or wrong.
We will read Moveon’s site, because we know it is a good source of info. But that is us, and not the typical John Doe. We want to dig in and find out more. John Doe doesn’t. And we got hurt with this ad, even if good intentions were meant.
Bb
rwcole @ 133
and as think progress points out, the only reason petraeous is going to draw down the troops at all is becuase he has broken our armed forces
we are depleted guys and this looks like it is by design
the president has engaged, equiped and funded his private army and he has depleted american’s army
if this isn’t by design you have another thing comming
they are planning on attacking Iran, the only way to do that since our armed forces are depleted is to use nuclear weapons
they are dying to use the nuke
and since they know congress won’t authorize this aggresssion they are planning on doing it without congress
and there petraous is telling us he will disobey congress and whatever law they pass
this is scary scary stuff
QuakerGirl @ 121
We never do.
Does Channel design Pink protest pantsuits with pearls?
I didn’t think so….
oddmommy @ 125
I’m going to disagree here, too. This was indeed a great country. Our system of government, for all faults, was one of the few that specifically enumerated the rights of the people. We were a beacon of hope for the entire world. Few other countries can claim that.
perris @ 119
I have been waiting for someone to mention that. ;0)
This is from the NYT, analysis of today’s hearings. I like this, but it goes on after to trace the Iraq war back to the Clinton years. Haven’t heard that one before.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..lysis.html
Loo Hoo. @ 138
It’s like choking on Duncan Deuxnuts…Gawd.
newspaperbrat @ 146
It has reframed the debate, a positive sign…!!!
snowbird42 @ 142
While “Winter Soldier” laid the groundwork “Operation Dewey Canyon III” was probably more noteable.
Anybody watch the Bush/Dr. Strangelove video I posted on the surge a couple of threads back? If you want, I’ll find it and post it again, it is really funny. I just don’t want to be repetitive…(yes, Raven…I know…;>)
Ignore TV.
What is right?
To appreciate the uniqueness of the USA- ya have to go back to the 18th century and look at the american experience through the eyes of people at that time. It was the living embodiment of all the best thinking on political philosophy at the time..
The USA jumped right out of John Locke’s pen.
Here’s from that same NYT linked above…
LS @ 157
What? I didn’t do nothin.
LS @ 157
I loved it.
newspaperbrat @ 146
Uh – guys I don’t know how my name ended up at the top of this comment – but will take responsibility. ;~)
I figured all along that once Clusterfuck invaded Iraq it would be on the road to becoming a lot like it’s shiite neighbor Iran..
Bb, I actually saw the ad in the nytimes this morning. Home delivery of the paper here in GA. You are absolutely right in your assessment that most people won’t see the actual ad but the Betray Us part will stick to the General at least for awhile.
zennurse @ 162
I missed it :(
raven @ 161
You know…me…repetitive…Craig…
Here’s the video again, it is funny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvdfGvMq97Y
rwcole @ 159
Tocqueville presented an excellent expose of the American Experience…!!!
Listening to Duncan Hunter spew the word Betrayus at the opening of the hearings this morning. Priceless.
Frank Probst @ 151
maybe, but tell me when we ever practiced what we preached. I mean, consistently. Spouting ideals and beacons of hope is pretty easy shit. Implementing them is something else entirely.
Not very different from Karl Marx’s ideal of communism, actually. A system that sounds good on paper……but never actually worked the way it was supposed to.
LS @ 157
I saw it and forgot to thank you for fetching it. It was worth it.
Pat Lang’s thoughts on the testimony:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com…..3#comments
Eureka Springs @ 150
Maybe Mary Kay was channeling her passion for pink from the great beyond.
For Lahoma when you get in. Thirty-seven years tonight. Remember when we were students at Chico State in ‘70 and we rocked to this? See you in early morning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=
FYI, New post
Eureka Springs @ 169
Bwwwhahahahaha…perfect…I’ve been hearing it all over the place. It is a much more familiar word to pronounce than Petraeus. Brilliant.
If the Democrats can’t stop this war, they have to make it clear that it was the Republicans that made this war go on. It is their war. If Americans want out of this war, they should vote Democrat in the next election. No matter what Hillary says.
One of the great protest cd’s of the Bush era, imo, is Green Day’s American Idiot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5mjN32G1iI
Personal favorite, Michael Franti and Spearhead’s last two cd’s. Love this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsob06heSfQ
LS @ 167
omg!
and when did Bush make that speech. I must have slept through it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 174
good heavens, OKk, if you and Lahoma’s romance gets any sweeter someone’s gonna write a poem about about it! Or make a movie……..
: )
raven @ 128
It must be a joke. It made me laugh out loud.
Hello!
While googling ‘idea mapping’ and ‘concept mapping,’ I came across the term ‘wicked problem’ which is what this whole mess seems to be in language that academics might use. Whether the pun was originally intended or not, I do not know. It is in wikipedia.
Sorry General. The most recent escalation is not a success. We are not drinking your Fox flavored Cool-Aide anymore.
For four years the situation has been worsening in Iraq. And all that time the Fox Republicans have been saying things have been improving. Froptraeus’ blather is just more of that.
Suggestion: wake up and smell the coffee already. If we can’t do this with an all-out effort in four years, what makes you think we can do it with a declining effort in four, or eight or even twelve more years.
America is tired of excuses. All you Republicans did is prattle on about how great things are through your right-wing billionaire Murdoch mouthpiece at Fox. Listen to me. Okay? Listen to me. It’s not working. You are totally disconnected from reality. You have spun us for four long years and nothing has improved. You have no credibility left anymore. None.
It’s time to start pulling out. We know you are desperately trying to keep America’s heads shoved into the toilet bown in Iraq so you can share the blame with the next Administration which, rest assured, will not be from your sorry party. America is not buying it. We want out. Our presence is only delaying political reconciliation and, in the interim, causing lots and lots of deaths and hundreds of billions of our money wasted.
raven @ 68
And it looks like we’re about to do it again, what with kissing up to the Sunni in Anbar & all. Remember when we came rolling down the highway towards Baghdad, announcing the liberation of the Shi’a from the terrible clutches of Saddam and his Sunni army? Someone forgot to tell the neo-cons (or the neo-cons had their hands over their ears, shouting “I can’t hear you! La-la-la-la”) that the Iraqi Shi’a had connections with Iran, aka axis of evil.
Didn’t we promise the Shi’a that since they were the majority, that in our shining new city on an Iraqi hill, the Shi’a would have a majority vote? Hello?
Oh, well.
A few months ago, weren’t we fighting tooth and nail with those same Sunni “insurgents” that we have now made an alliance with?
Oh, well.
I guess being a Neo-con means never having to say you’re sorry.
Bob in HI
Jonathan @ 105
Wasn’t Harry Reid a boxer? A year ago weren’t they describing him as a fighter, citing his background as a boxer?
Bob in HI
bobschacht @ 186
Evening Bob. Harry even invoked his “Boxer Cred” at yKos last year – look at me, I’m a tough guy…
Patreaus forgot to tell us this:
Millions at risk of exposure to cholera in northern Iraq, UN health agency warns
10 September 2007 – More than 7,000 cases of acute diarrhoea have so far been reported in the cholera epidemic in northern Iraq, putting over 2.8 million people at risk from exposure to the infectious and sometimes fatal disease, according to the United Nations health agency.
The UN World Health Organization (WHO) is taking emergency measures to help the Kurdistan authorities in Sulemaniya, Kirkuk and Erbil provinces contain the epidemic. Ten people are so far reported to have died.
“We still need different materials to control this pandemic such as drugs and medical supplies, diagnostic and enteric disease bacteriology kits, water testing kits, awareness and communications tools and equipment,” WHO Technical officer Omer Mekki said. “We are doing our best effort to lead the UN emergency aid in north Iraq.”
All evidence suggests that transmission is still circulating. It is unclear what caused the outbreak, but initial investigation show some evidence that, in Sulemaniya, polluted water that residents were forced to rely on due to a shortage of drinking water may have been to blame. In Kirkuk, cracked water pipes allowed contamination by sewage, and because of the close geographic proximity the outbreak spread to Erbil, Dr. Mekki said.
WHO is providing technical assistance to the health authorities for risk assessment, strengthening surveillance system and improving coordination through a multi-sectoral operations room in health, water and environment in the provincial ministry of health.
The agency has also helped in standardizing case management, mobilizing medical and other essential supplies as well as in organizing social mobilization and health education campaigns where more than 10,000 posters distributed.
The continuous movement of people and cargo, bad sanitary conditions and high temperatures may increase the possibility of spreading the disease rapidly to other areas such as Baghdad and the central provinces, Dr. Al- Gasseer warned.
The WHO-Iraq office has ordered 10 emergency diarrhoea disease kits to pre-position adequate quantities of essential drugs as well as other medical and laboratory supplies in all hospitals and health centres. In addition, two truck loads of intravenous fluids and antibiotics are to be sent Erbil.
Cholera is an acute intestinal infection caused by ingestion of food or water contaminated with the bacterium Vibrio cholerae. It causes watery diarrhoea that can quickly lead to severe dehydration and death if treatment is not promptly given. About 80 to 90 per cent of cases are mild or moderate and are difficult to distinguish clinically from other types of acute diarrhoea. Less than 20 per cent of ill people develop typical cholera with signs of moderate or severe dehydration.s this:
Richmond @ 41
HI guys, late to the party but here’s a protest song from Canada called “Friendly Fire” by Friendly Rich on YouTube.
Thank you PW!
PW or anyone else, can you tell me if anyone on the blog has i.d’d the source of those stats. Petr. was using for his charts?
Things were bizzy here tonight, & I was trying to – heh – multi-task, sigh. Don’t remember where I heard it, but someone (KeithO?) mentioned the stat. source/basis for the charts was suspect.
I think a few of the congresscritters tried to get at that also. not sure.
Sounded important at the time.
Gotta go get some zzz & hope to be in better shape on the morrow.
nite pups ;->
“Republicans will always hurt the working folks more on purpose than the Democrats by accident.”
I don’t believe this applies anymore.
CORPOCRATICREPUGS AKA ASSELEPHANTS!!!!
Screw them all……………
I’m a listener of NPR and for the past day there hasn’t been one guest on NPR who had a bad thing to say about Iraq. Everyone is touting the great strides made even in the past TWO WEEKS! After four and a half years???
I am really ready to throw it in. There really is no hope to change direction here until Bush is gone. Let’s hasten that along.
Am I the only one noticing this?? Am I wrong, are great things happening in Iraq now?? Just be patient? Is that it? Sheep, we’re just sheep…
Also, I was reading my old college newspaper and I came across this letter to the paper.
http://media.www.ramcigar.com/…..ailedition
I can’t begin to express my dissapointment in the spurious arguements coming from this individual. Delusional comes to mind, like his fearless leader.
Getting the report from Petraeus is like getting the report from the fox who’s guarding the henhouse. Come on, he can, with a straight face, say we’re making progress. What else can he say? No, let’s throw in the towel and go home? That wasn’t his mission; they didn’t give him a command to fail; how idiotic can you get, if you expect an objective report from this man? He probably even believes he’s objective and telling the truth. So the beat goes on … so the war and the killing and the stupid spending of money continues.