Watch as the MSM continues to pretend that there is no objective right or wrong and that any conflict between Democrats and Republicans, Iraq war opponents and supporters, fans and opponents of the Constitution, is nothing more than "he said, she said":
Iraq debate is sea of statistics
By RICHARD LARDNER
WASHINGTON - In vertical bars of blue, green, gray and red, a briefing chart prepared by the Defense Intelligence Agency says what Gen. David Petraeus won't.
Insurgent attacks against Iraqi civilians, their security forces and U.S. troops remain high, according to the document obtained by The Associated Press. It is a conclusion that the well-regarded Army officer who is the top U.S. commander in Iraq is expected to try to counter when he and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador in Baghdad, testify before Congress on Monday and Tuesday.
More than four years into a conflict initially thought to be a cakewalk, the war has become a battle of statistics, graphs and conflicting assessments of progress in a country of more than 27 million people.
The defense intelligence chart makes the point, with figures from Petraeus' command in Baghdad, the Multinational Force-Iraq. Congressional auditors used the same numbers to conclude that Iraqis are as unsafe now as they were six months ago; the Bush administration and military officials also using those figures say that finding is flawed.
With so much depending on how the statistics are collected and interpreted, policymakers in Washington are confused.
Rep. Ike Skelton, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, summed up the situation during a hearing last week on the report by congressional auditors at the Government Accountability Office.
"What is really going on? What standards should we look at? Where do we go from here?" asked Skelton, D-Mo.
For every positive step, a negative one follows.
Oh, it's just a sea of statistics! Help, help! Save me, General Petraeus!
The whole article goes on in that vein. The point is to make everything seem Oh So Terribly Confusing -- so much so that even we high-powered media folk can't make head or tail of it, so why not just leave it to the experts in the Bush Administration?
Arrrrrrrrrgh. This article pretends to be deep and authoritative, but it's all about muddying the waters.
No acknowledgement that Petraeus is Bush's sockpuppet, reciting a "report" written by the Bush White House. No acknowledgement that Bush and Petraeus have done this same dog-and-phony show before. No acknowledgement that the Bushistas have been fudging, seriously fudging, the data they control -- the "sea of statistics" isn't quite so confusing and seemingly contradictory when all the lies are stripped out, but the picture that's painted isn't one that Team Bush wants us to see. And certainly no acknowledgement that the general public isn't buying the Bush-Petraeus con job.
And the members of the GOP/Media Complex wonder why I call them that.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Get out now!
hi PW
not really off topic, this is about the attack on 9/11 which the president used to invade Iraq
perris @ 273
this is really a must read
one of the authors of “the path to 9/11 is under gag order not to discuss his issues with the movie but he defies the gag order as any patriot would
you really have to get a read of that entire article
do-si-do @ 1
That too!
None. Just me, here?
OK, I’ll tell everyone you’re here PW!
Stats? If you don’t like what they’re telling you; change the formula.
Hi Phoenix Woman, thanks!
“al qaeda is part of the sectarian violence” - Petraeus
This is the opposite of what Chimpy has been saying all along, that they are completely separate and unique factions.
What? No talk in the MSM of shifting goalposts?
(Actually, I vaguely remember one comment to that effect out of dozens on NPR)
Bob in HI
Petraeus is a willing pawn of GWB.
That’s how he understands his oath.
And more importantly, that’s his personality since he was a kid.
You want competence? Choose this guy.
You want honesty? Tell him what honesty is, and he’ll deliver it.
You want a person you like? Well, I wouldn’t choose this fuck over a whole bunch of people I’ve known.
General BetrayUs. General RestrainUs. General DetainUs. or General Confusion. You decide.
Talk about outrageous clothes, did anyone take a good look at how Gen. P was dressed on tv earlier today.
Did anyone else feel that Dems were outnumbered and outblathered today?
I don’t know, according to Rep Payne, Dem-NJ, on the PBS Newshour, it’s not that complicated, the surge is working (he repeated it several times), but there are problems on the political front. Statistics schmatistics! Who needs damn statistics, anyways.
Indeed would seem that unfortunately Rep Payne had not read the GAO report, (both Dems seem totally unaware of Iraqi public opinion or just didn’t think to mention it). Payne did, in his cringe-inducing performance keep referencing how we found no weapons of mass destruction. It almost seems that the always reliably pro-administration PBS Newshour (thank the gods that be that the 30% that still supports Bush includes our media stars) picked out the most inarticulate, embarassingly ill-informed Dems to make the opposition case.
Stunningly bad performance.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
Yeah — all that fruit salad!
I did not get the Representative from New Jersey’s name–may have been Berman–but whoever it was, he had it right. “Not once” , he said,”have I heard you (Petraeus) or Amb Crocker mention The Global War on Terror”.
If troop escalations were to do anything, they should have succeeded measurably against the GWOT.
And The General continued to talk about his kinetic ass-whupping on “Al Quieda”. He said it repeatedly. I think for variety he threw in “ethno-sectarian violence” as though it were a distraction. Al Quieda wasn’t in Iraq before we showed up, so why celebrate killing more of them now than last year, General?
I thought the Dems were better than I expected.
The Republics were as bad as ever.
asked this downstairs and didn’t get anyone to bite;
I didn’t get a chance to read the live blog or watch the testimony but rachael maddow mentioned something that is indeed frightening and I am wondering if it was brought up here at the lake;
one of our critters asked if petraus would obey congress or the president if congress passed funding that could only be appropriated for getting our soldiers home
petraous actually said he would have to consult his lawyer
is everyone all over that?
Hi PW. Frank Rich coming up on KO!
I missed the statistics. All I heard was that by next summer, we might (emphasis on the “might”) be back where we were last year, but only if things go really well.
perris @ 19
I heard that too but came in late so I wasn’t sure the context. Yes, frightening. He’s been hanging out with Signing Statements Addington and DICK too much.
Shinzo Abe, the Japanese prime minister, has said he is ready to resign if parliament refuses to back an extension of Japan’s military support for the war in Afghanistan.
perris @ 19
P got it wrong. He’s obligated to follow the president’s orders.
perris @ 19
I don’t think the president is next in his chain of command.
not to paint with too broad a brush, but here is XTC - Generals and Majors
30,000 come home on troop rotations this coming summer anyway if no tours are again extended. How is that different from the numbers Petraeus is offering?
Frank Rich (my favorite) coming up on Olberman
It is pretty incredible that Senator Durbin actually used the word BOGUS about the Petraeus Report!
perris @ 19
I heard that on the radio while driving. Well, in all fairness, I think he would have to consult a lawyer (hopefully not John Yoo) to see what his duty was. IANAL, constitutional or otherwise. I wonder what Marcy’s response is…
And John Dean too.
Did any one hear Kos and Eli Pariser on Hardball…outstanding!
do-si-do @ 14
Maybe, after the Gonzales fiasco, when absent Goopers did not fill the air with blubber, and Alberto was left to hang all alone, twisting slowly in the wind, a New Directive has gone forth from the WH aka Ed Gillespie: Goopers, show up at your committee hearings! Smother everything with butter! Enhance obfuscation!
Bob in HI
Hello Phoenix Woman - Statistics has become a bastardized term. Because numbers are used people are fooled into thinking it is objective and “pure”.
Did Petraeus write the report himself? I’ll bet the same way GW wrote his term papers - with lots of help. Where did he get his statistics? How did he arrive at these numbers?
I had nothing but questions listening to Petraeus. But, for those who obey a uniform, without question, it is the word of God. God didn’t mention the millions of refugees. Just a detail not worthy of mention in his report.
Man, I’ve got to take up a vice. I need a good stiff drink. Only, I don’t drink. I do love to shop (mostly window).
You know, as an American person who needs to understand this or understand that, I am not only mistrustful of our administration, I am goddamn tired of being tuned out by the DC establishment and MSM as well!
Thanks for FDL!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 31
Must read before the next election for all your Repub family and friends: John Dean’s Conservatives Without Conscience.
Maybe give them a copy in their stockings….
dude @ 17
Ackerman?
Bob in HI
Rich, the Iraqis who have helped us are in great danger, and we are not letting them into the US.
bobschacht @ 37
snowbird42 @ 32
No! Hope John gets it up!
OT and not- but a thought. Randi Rhodes had a segment on the lack of protest songs now (and threats to those who do, a la Dixie Chicks now playing on my IPOD). I would love it if every now and then our wonderful pup posters would put up links to contemporary protest songsters so we could listen - and support them. Maybe even a special Protest song linki at the top of the site. We could also blast these numbers from small speakers as we walk our dogs around the dog and pony shows, as we poster the neighborhoods with Out of Iraq signs, and other public actions.
OO, KO with something about Powell from GQ. I’m not going to the 25th Anniversary of the Wall because he’s the keynote.
I don’t know who said this:
“Republicans will always hurt the working folks more on purpose than the Democrats by accident.”
I don’t believe this applies anymore.
Phoenix Woman Attack! Amazing, there is no Petraeus Report after all. But General Petraeus has proven he is a neo-conservative war criminal.
In six months they will repeat the same lying garbage. Of course! There is just endless repetition and endless war from these greedy, thieving, cowards. Petraeus has betrayed us.
Thank you for letting me rant and rave. I feel better.
I feel like it’s groundhog day, all over again - rare, amazing footage in this one. BTW, there is very little footage of either Chicago ‘68 or Kent State…:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....mp;search=
Rich: Gen. P’s show today was about perhaps going into Iran. Did I get that right?
dude @ 27
None, Petraeus chose to portray necessity as a decision he had made.
Don’t watch TV!
Seek good ideas.
Loo Hoo. @ 40
Uh oh, foul mouthed femblog Larry Craig alert! Watch your phraseology. :)
Richmond @ 41
Good idea. The protest songs of the Vietnam era were part of the fabric of an entire generation and probably play a part in why so many of us who were young then are politically active as adults.
Loo Hoo. @ 38
If we let them in that may not play well with the anti-immigration crowd and the Bush base.
LS @ 45
18 1/2 minute gaps?
just in case everything wasn’t sickening enough today, Blitzer had a little blurb about an Esquire magazine interview with rumsfeld wherein he says, among other things, that Iraq hasn’t been “the success” that Afghanistan was.
Help us, Jesus. Mohammed. Goddess. Someone…..anyone…..
General Groundhog Day.
Good one.
oddmommy @ 53
No thanks to Rummy.
ignore, ignore, ignore…
Rich says Gen. Powell has been consistantly late. Is that what’s called a gross understatement?
Petraeus said this at the beginning of his statement…
Could that be true? I thought all this was out last week. In the media, they kept getting bits of stuff. What’s he talking about?
Just got an email from Leahy saying there will be more tough questioning of Petraeus/Crocker in the Senate tomorrow.
In the 6.5 hours of hearing today, I’d rate about 20 minutes as tough questioning and it was all at the end.
Richmond @ 41
Peter Rowan and Tony Rice Ahmed the Beggar Boy
Bruce Springsteen
Devils & Dust
I got my finger on the trigger
But I don’t know who to trust
When I look into your eyes
There’s just devils and dust
We’re a long, long way from home, Bobbie
Home’s a long, long way from us
I feel a dirty wind blowing
Devils and dust
I got God on my side
I’m just trying to survive
What if what you do to survive
Kills the things you love
Fear’s a powerful thing
It can turn your heart black you can trust
It’ll take your God filled soul
And fill it with devils and dust
Well I dreamed of you last night
In a field of blood and stone
The blood began to dry
The smell began to rise
Well I dreamed of you last night
In a field of mud and bone
Your blood began to dry
The smell began to rise
We’ve got God on our side
We’re just trying to survive
What if what you do to survive
Kills the things you love
Fear’s a powerful thing
It’ll turn your heart black you can trust
It’ll take your God filled soul
Fill it with devils and dust
Now every woman and every man
They want to take a righteous stand
Find the love that God wills
And the faith that He commands
I’ve got my finger on the trigger
And tonight faith just ain’t enough
When I look inside my heart
There’s just devils and dust
Well I’ve got God on my side
And I’m just trying to survive
What if what you do to survive
Kills the things you love
Fear’s a dangerous thing
It can turn your heart black you can trust
It’ll take your God filled soul
Fill it with devils and dust
It’ll take your God filled soul
Fill it with devils and dust
oddmommy @ 53
Rumsfeld interview
oddmommy @ 53
I hope these idiot Bushies keep talking because the cognitive dissonance they are espousing is working to turn the moderate Republicans away from the “bubble” contingent. My FIL is a lifelong authoritarian type Republican and he just won’t even speak politics now, wants Bush admin “to go away”. (Hand over ears, lalalalalalala)
How mature.
Did anyone call his facts into question besides the protesters?
**Arrrrrrrrrgh. This article pretends to be deep and authoritative, but it’s all about muddying the waters.***
You got that right. That’s why the talking point about being too rigorous with numbers was formulated. What better to put Americans to sleep with?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
We deserted the Hmong people of Laos after they helps the US during Vietnam. We just said, sorry, after promising them protection for their assistance. It amazes me that anyone would ever trust this country again. After they paid a terrible price we allowed them in during the Boat People exodus. Many of them reside in Oakland, California.
zennurse @ 58
I can’t wait to see Leahy grill Petraeus. He’s gonna be pissed because today was the day the White House was supposed to turn over the missing emails. I’m gonna guess it didn’t happen.
John Dean coming up on Keith.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 31
Sweetness, jez got back in time…!!! *g*
QuakerGirl @ 64
QG, we did it in Iraq in 91 too
This was after we encouraged them to rise up.
I heard Duncan Hunter definitely say that he had not “had a chance to read the Petraeus Report” in his first round…there seems to be one…also, Petraeus said that he had been in videoconference with the Admin for an entire week. Yeah, he wrote “this”, and they didn’t vet “it”…D’oh…because they told him what to put in it. No doubt they were conspiring as to what and how this would be presented. He explicitly stated that the surge and its results are based on the “mission” he was given he was just following orders to implement what the “country laid out”…he said that. His mission was to come up with the facts to fit the story and the story to fit the facts. I think he did his best, whatever that is, I guess his best is to follow orders…Jeez…Same old, same old. I call BS. I believe there is another report that this report was based upon, and I think Hunter is privy to that, otherwise why would he say that. It’s going to be in the transcript.
QuakerGirl @ 64
Well, Quakergirl:
What should the U.S. have done with respect to the Hmong and the South Vietnamese in its pull-out from Viet Nam?
QuakerGirl @ 64
And Sacramento too.
LS @ 69
OK, someone help me. Is there a written report or not?
Ah G*d/G*dess bless Keith for having Frank Rich on, challenging the Democrats over war funding, and thank you to Rich for mentioning the 2 million plus situation with the refugees, the ethnic cleansing and the fact the ChimpO has not done anything to help these poor people into this country.
Ironic , I’m listening to Dean on Rehm show.
He is saying that the people care about process in government, that we know when we’re getting the short end of the stick from the gov’t.
valletta @ 61
You know, I know a lot of Dems who actually feel guilt or shame or regret when their guys screw up in office. It actually embarrasses them. On the other hand, I cannot think of a single Republican who behaves this way when one of their guys screws up. It really is a lot like you describe “Hand over ears-lalalala.” Was it HuffPo or Raw Story who ran the article yesterday about psychological/neuirological research showing that liberals and conservatives actually do have hard-wired brain differences that affect their attitudes toward ideas?
Jonathan @ 70
And the Yards.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
Right is right. It’s a moral imperative. As it was with Vietnam.
The democratic leadership sucks!!!!!!!!! They need to grow some testicles and take a dose of viag*a. Hardball calls Iraq “quicksand” and Powell says intelligence was a lie and tossed it. What more is needed???????
Buchanan called it a big win for Bush and Im afraid he’s right. The only thing that will stop him is impeachment.
raven @ 72
There is, unless you want to read it, in which case, there isn’t.
There is, unless you want to read it, in which case, there isn’t.
Ding!
Richmond @ 41
Mark Knopfler has a new album coming out with a song called “Punish the Monkey.” It, of course, made me think of our Chimp Pres.
Richmond @ 41
Neil Young’s Let’s Impeach the President.
This whole charade is maddening. The “inside the beltway” crowd play out their kabuki dance with dueling statistics while real people die. If we are “kicking ass” as our Clown in Chief claims, why does he have to sneak in and out of Iraq? I read that an outbound aircraft with politicians on board took fire the other day. Imagine losing a few politicians. Now that’s the kind of “collateral damage” that will get these cowards moving.
valletta @ 65
I’m wondering what waking up tomorrow morning is going to be like for Gen. P. After today, he’s got to know that he does not have a good day coming with Pat and co.
rat bastahd @ 81
His song, “If this is Goodbye” isn’t really a protest song but it is based on the last phone calls of doomed people on 9/11.
I just hope the next Democratic president will grant John Dean a full pardon.
Jonathan @ 70
Right deja vu. Dear Mr. Scowcroft. I think I told raven the story of a very dear family friend from Vietnam. Maybe I’ll tell it to you one day Jonathan.
raven,
Yeah, the Yards. Yeah.
Thanks everyone for the many protest song suggestions!
mui @ 87
Indeed.
well, it’s got just the right title Wag The Dog and it’s Mark Knopfler!
Deja Vu. Dear Mr. Ford.
raven @ 90
It’s something I grew up with. The lady was practically a surrogate parent. So the refugee crisis cuts deep.
Maybe Christy and Jane can get John on the book salon with his new book, “Broken Government”? :)
Frank Probst @ 78
When they ask for it, it will be considered Executive Privilege, and there we go back into groundhog day again. “This” report might not be “that” report that “this” report is based on and which Petraeus actually did write, so he isn’t lying when he says “this” report wasn’t vetted. Otherwise, why did Duncan Hunter know there was a report. They only let “certain” Repubs know what might be going on, and they compartmentalize it when they do.
Dean says the Democrats are trying to “find their spine”. ;0)
snowbird42 @ 79
I have to agree. For all the ways we can criticize Petraeus and Crocker, they did put on a good show today. They did present the kind of face the waffling base needs to see, and were calm and well-dressed enough to put the sheeple to sleep. And, as a bonus, Code Pink will have a negative effect on these two groups, reinforcing their resistance to change. I can only hope CodePink will energize the opposing views on the War, but my impression is that they did not do that today.
Finally, MoveOn’s ad in the NYT was made to sound like a Democratic cheap-shot against Petraeus by the Republicans today. I am afraid that will be the Limbaugh-Hannity theme for a day or two.
Basically Dean just said if another Republican gets elected President his grandchildren will have to have another constitutional convention to repair the damage!
Here’s an idea for the next Demo prez: In the morning pardon Dean. In the afternoon appoint him AG.
raven @ 68
Raven - That was horrible. I remember a Kurdish woman frightened and asking why we didn’t help. As she spoke, the camera-person pointed the camera to the sky as our planes surveyed from a safe vertical distance. I still see this woman’s face contorted in pain and horror. The axis of evil was Saddam, Ronald and Daddy Bush. Saddam we knew was evil. Reagan and Bush were betrayers.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 46
They’ve got a ready-made excuse that no one has been talking much about: the Badr organization in So. Iraq.
(Emphasis added)
To what extent is Iran pulling the strings with these guys now? I don’t know; maybe Juan Cole knows.
Bob in HI