(We’re pleased today to welcome Allan Ornstein for a discussion of his book Class Counts: Education, Inequality, and the Shrinking Middle Class. Please welcome him in the comments — JH)
Allan Ornstein, a Professor of Education at St. John’s University, has written fifty books and more than four hundred articles. I suspect that Class Counts represents something of a departure for Prof. Ornstein, both in style and content, although we can ask him that today. The book is part analysis and part jeremiad. It ranges widely in subject matter, displaying both passion and erudition, based around Prof. Ornstein’s core themes. Those themes include the ongoing struggle between elitism and egalitarianism in the American experiment, and how that conflict frames today’s unprecedented assault on the middle class.
It’s an important topic. “Class” has been declared a taboo topic in mainstream political debate. We (and by “we” I mean the media-driven arbiters of our political discourse) have declared that we are a classless society, and that any discussion of class and its policy implications is wrong-headed, socialistic, and the product of a cynical political calculus. For documentation, we need look no further that the media coverage and commentary of Al Gore’s 2000 campagin (with its “populism = cynicism” subtext) and this year’s coverage of John Edwards’ class-based theme. (Are his arguments valid? Look – his house is big!)
Class Counts is not a partisan political book or media critique, however. It looks at a bigger picture: How do today’s political actions reflect greater historical, economic, and cultural forces? What, if anything, can be done to change things? Prof. Ornstein musters an impressive array of statistics, cites a wide range of sources, and offers enough provocative arguments to start a good healthy debate with anyone – including me.
His thought-provoking ideas and observations include:
- The U.S. today is more like Athens than Rome
- John Adams was a “closet monarchist”
- The AARP reports that only 46% of American workers participate in any retirement plan.
- Class mobility in America is minimal – and declining
- Today’s “idealistic” business leaders – from Starbucks’ Howard Schultz to Ben and Jerry – offer “chicken soup” bromides while ignoring today’s underlying realities
- A class war is being waged against the bottom 80 to 90 percent of America’s economic population
The unspoken taboo against discussing class has been extremely useful to the architects of today’s radical upward redistribution of wealth. Prof. Ornstein has performed a valuable service by breaking that taboo, and by bringing a wealth of facts, citations, and ideas to the debate.
In addition, he’s a country music fan – and, for me, country music is our nation’s only remaining class-based art form. From George Jones’ “Small Time Laboring Man” to Merle Haggard’s “Mama’s Hungry Eyes,” up to Gretchen Wilson’s “Redneck Woman,” it has been a voice for that 80% of Americans that are excluded from the new prosperity.
FDL readers know that any friend of Merle Haggard’s is a friend of mine. With that, let’s welcome Allan Ornstein. I’ll ask the first question:
- Prof. Ornstein, thank you for joining us. Do you agree that there is a taboo against public discussion of class – and, if so, how can it be lifted?
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Welcome Allan, than thanks, RJ.
Please remember, everyone, to stay on topic with questions and discussion about the book in this thread. All other open discussion should continue in the post just below this one on the front page.
Thanks!
Hello and welcome to FDL.
Let’s welcome Prof. Ornstein. To repeat my leadoff question: Do you agree that there is a taboo against public discussion of class – and, if so, how can it be lifted?
I do not believe that there is a taboo. The problem is that when critics discuss growing inequality and huge Wall Street profits, they are condemned (the critics) as evoking class warfare terminology.
welcome prof ornstein
there’s TWO things not really discussed in america – CLASS & RACE
In the academic world, class, race and gender are “hot” topics. In the business world, we tend to stifle this type of discussion, ostensibly for fear of legal reprisals.
Prof. Ornstein:
The standard consultants’ line against making class based arguments, and observations like those in your book, seems to be to invoke the notion that all Americans want to be rich someday, and so reflexively resist arguments that can be labelled as class warfare.
First of all, do you agree that this presents any meaningful barrier? Is there any data to support this bit of political conventional wisdom?
Also, who are the most articulate or successful people in making progressive economic arguments that touch on class warfare, in contemporary politics, in your view.
We may be saying the same thing in different ways. I would consider the response you describe a way to enforce limits on acceptable discourse.
Welcome Prof Ornstein. I live in Ohio where the State supreme court has determined that Ohio’s distribution of funds for schools is unconstitutional (3 times) yet the the disproportionate and unconstitutional way of funding schools still goes on.
In Glouster Ohio (small coal mining town in southeastern Ohio) a student has around $6000.oo spent on them and in a rich suburb of Cleveland, Cincinnati or Dayton a student has $12,ooo a year spent on them. (not exact figures, but in the ballpark)
Can you discuss this unjust way of funding students in the U.S. and how it obviously has to do with class issues.
old song says…. them that got gets…..
Prof. Ornstein,
Why do you believe that many don’t vote with a class conscious? What I mean is, why do many in middle America vote against their class needs, voting for those who do little to help the middle or lower class?
Do you think its because many don’t want to acknowledge that they are lower middle class? Or is it because class itself is often a topic left out of the MSM?
Anyone who teaches in a public school as do I, knows very well that we are not a classless society. And a college education has now become so expensive, that soon only the wealthy will be able to afford it.
And just what is the middle class. Husband and wife both working, perhaps two jobs, trying to feed their kids and struggling from month to month just to make ends meet. Forget about saving anything for a rainy day. Everyday for them is a rainy day.
buckley says
September 9th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Prof. Ornstein,
Note to Prof. Ornstein: “MSM” = mainstream media.
Thanks for being here today, Dr. Ornstein. What do you think can be done to awaken Americans to the fact that class war is in fact being waged against them?
there’s an extremely wide gap and growing wider as we speak between the middle class and those in the wealthy class… this past week should’ve been a wake-up call for sleepy americans…
I have spent years (during elections) knocking on the doors of people who live in southeastern Ohio towns and in the inner cities of Dayton, Columbus and Cincinnati. A common response that I hear from people as I try to register voters and encourage them to vote is either “I don’t know enough” or “what difference does it make”.
I often share my real opinions with them that it is the “salt of the earth” people the “working poor” who really know the most about what is going on in this system.
Prof Ornstein how do you explain the psychological effects that have taken place for people to feel so beat down, so hopeless. I have run into so many “working poor” who put themselves down
John Edwards appears to be the only contemporary politician on the national scene making reference to the two Americas — struggling working class and rich. I would add a twist to his two Americas and refer to the people who work hard, play by the rules, but barely survive on a day to day basis and those who move money around and provide no tangible goods or services.
As for your first question. I believe that the American dream is slowly evaporating and most of us refuse to accept or realize it. There is still an iota of truth that the American Dream can be realized. This waning dream keeps the masses from going in America.
Class war! My favorite topic.
Welcome, Prof Ornstein. What role do you believe the “circuses” aspect of our media entertainment complex plays in keeping folks from recognizing their own current place in America’s class system? Isn’t it important to show ordinary Americans winning money and fabulous prizes in order to fuel the lottery-enhanced dreams of lower and middle class Americans? Don’t such extravaganzas feed our aspirational goals for ourselves and our children?
Thanks for writing this great book, which I’ve ordered. And thanks to RJ for hosting Book Salon today!
Professor Ornstein,
Can you discuss how Americans have become increasingly resistant to progressive taxation of income — and how this has lead to the shrinking of the middle class?
In my school we serve breakfast and lunch free to any kid. Many of these children come to school hungry and we teachers know it. And we also know each night many of these same kids won’t get a decent supper. I have to wonder how far $12,000,000,000 per month (the amount spent by the taxpayer on war) would go toward fixing our crumbling public schools.
Dr Ornstein
We have an interesting situation in our neighborhood school here in Athens, GA. The school has been predominantly African-American and Hispanic for nearly a decade. As our neighborhood has “gentrified” more and more “middle-class” (white) families have moved back in. There has not been a PTO in this school for quite some time but, as many of these folks are showing an interest in having their kids go to this school, one is being formed. In addition, some of these parents have been tutoring at the school in hopes of improving it. What is amazing is that the local paper has editorialized a warning that this renewed interest in the school may actually be to the detriment of the current students because their need may be different from the newly arriving middle-class kids. It’s very frustrating for parents, and some of us who are not parents but care about the school, to see this kind of negativity from the press.
it comes back to the outsourcing of jobs that maintained the middle-class…and allowed people to perhaps move up to the next level…. cant move up on walmart salaries…..
Welcome Professor Orstein.
Unfortunately I won’t be able to participate in the discussion this evening. (I’m off to work my 12 hour night shift where I’ve gotten a 2% raise in the last three years on a base pay of ten dollars). I haven’t read your book, but I’ll request my local library get it and I will read it.
I’m not sure you have looked at the issue directly, but would welcome your comments on how you think the current sex-offender registration policies and the increasing trend of local and state governments to legislate housing restrictions against them fit into your views. Additionally, if you have any comments on how, Imo, the long trend of increasing media sensationalism of sex-offender cases has contributed to the isolation of sex-offenders as a class of people.
In the interest of disclosure, I am a registered sex-offender.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
While my kids were growing up I let them know (and all of the young folk I know in Appalachia) that if they get the grades that small private colleges have great scholarships and that this is where the money and opportunities are. That they should not let the big numbers scare them…get the grades.
They can use the “I am from Appalachia” to fill in some quota.
Kathleen,
Public education is a national concern. For this reason, there should be equality of funding education within states. Over the years, there has been a slight reduction in inequality of spending on students within states. The problem with inequality of spending within states is that the Courts have focused on desegregation issues and racial discrimination and have ignored class based issues and class discrimination.
A related problem is that there are huge differences in spending among states, NY, NJ and Conn spend approximately 2 1/2 to 3X more per student than Arkansas, Alabama and Miss.
Is there an actual war on the middle class in the sense of an actual intent on somebody’s part to eradicate the middle class?
And if so, for what purpose?
so many great questions got to be tough for the Prof to pick. Raven that sounds like a tough issue. Hope you will go to the newly revived PTO with your insights.
Kathleen @ 24
In Georgia we have this phony “Hope Scholarship” that rignt-wing nutcase Neil Bortz calls a tax on the stupid to that educates the upper middle class. A bit harsh but it’s funded by the lottery and a B average is required for eligibility. Gee whiz, guess who has the best shot at good grades? You betcha, the suburban Atlanta upper-middle class white kids. It works great for them.
In an interview with Bill Moyers, Barbara Ehrenrich, who wrote “Nickel and Dimed”, responded to the claim that the United States is becoming a “European style class-based society”:
What is your opinion on the view that the United States class system more closely resembles the third world rather than Europe?
**What do you think can be done to awaken Americans to the fact that class war is in fact being waged against them?**
Is a class war an outdated concept that only hinders the message you are trying to deliver? Is something different happening now with relation to the development of a transnational elite that feels no particular affiliation for others who may share the same geography?
I tend to see the problem as the collapse of civic responsibility. There will alway be those who are more fortunate and those who are less fortunate. The problems start when those with more talent, material wealth, family connections, etc. develop the attitude that “I’ve got mine; if you don’t, that’s your problem.”
Kathleen @ 27
We are not parents and my interest is more in the area of adult literacy but, of course, these issues are very closley related. I tutor as much as I can but I don’t know if I could even be part of the PTO.
Prof Ornstein thanks for answering. So it sounds like there needs to be a distribution of educational funds that is just, sounds sensible and it is amazing and criminal that the unjust distribution of funds has been able to go on for so long.
LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL
Buckley,
One reason is that many Americans are caught up on cultural issues such as abortion, gay rights, family values and religion. These issues mask and tend to put into the background real economic inequality. I guess when you are unemployed or are forced to take a job at 50% of your previous salary, the reality of economics hits home.
Allan Ornstein @ 25
Well said, I thought that Kozol’s “Savage Inequalities” did a great job of describing the “mandatory inequality” of property tax funded schools.
Thank you for your answer Prof. Ornstein.
Allan Ornstein @ 33
Do you think that these issues are being used to cover up policies that hurt these people or am I just seeing conspiracy where it isn’t.
TeddySDanFran,
Everyone is hoping and seraching for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. As you know, this dream is rarely realized. In 2003, 69% OF AMERICAN TAXPAYERS (92 MILLION PEOPLE) EARNED LESS THAN $50,000.) The average adjusted income, after expenses and line item deductions for this group was about $19,500 – not very much money to pay for food,transportation and clothing.
Education if done properly can equate into power and of course upward mobility. Those with power and in the upper economic strata don’t necessarily and willingly share it. And are not usually disposed to dialectics on the matter. We are already an elitist society, and Republican philosophy by it’s very nature insists on maintaining the status quo. And when you consider how many millions it takes to win the presidency, or a Congressional seat, can you see the day a “common man or woman will become president?
Raven I have heard of the “Hope Scholarship”, sorry to hear that it does not work as well as hoped for.
The applying to small private liberal arts colleges works. They will often waive large parts of the tuition for great grades, need based etc. They often knock off more $$$ than state schools. My oldest went to Oberlin (incredible school committed to justice) here in Ohio on almost a complete scholarship, my other two daughters had similar experiences at Washington in St.Louis and Loyola in New Orleans.
Tell the young people to bust through those numbers and get the education that they deserve… apply to small expensive schools, bust the class doors down. Some schools are committed to this, many people are unaware of the opportunities.
okk@37
yeah – wait for that! we’ll need real public financing of campaigns before the “common man oe woman” can ever hope to run…
raven @ 34
Sorry, it was “compulsory inequality”.
Kathleen @ 38
It was created by Zell Miller, need I say more?
Scory,
I am mid boggled by the way Bush is able to lower taxes for the rich and super rich. The net result is that 90-100 billion dollars id being saved by this group. During the Eisenhower administration, taxes were as high as 90% for the wealthiest Americans. In 1979, prior to Reagan’s election, taxes were 70% for the same group. In 1986, they were lowered to 50% and now, they hover at around 35-36%.
It staggers one’s mind as to how the rich and super rich have been able to masnipulate the economic system to their exclusive benefit.
Between 1979 and 2000, the after tax income of the richest 1% climb ed 201%.Among the middle 1/5th, it increased 15% and amaong the bottom 1/5th, it increased 9%.
The lesson here is simple. The very rich find ways, both legal and illegal to shelter income and pay less taxes.
Two requirements need to be met to achieve a “fair deal”. First, a redistribution of wealth. Second, public financing of elections.
Prof thanks for the figures on the rich getting richer.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 37
Bill Clinton was from common folk, so is John Edwards.
We need to repeal the Reagan and Bush taxcuts. What Democrat will call for this?
TeddySanFran @ 46
Kucinich.
Oklahoma Kiddo, Absolutely not!
There will never be another Harry Truman or Abe Lincoln.
NY’s Mayor Blumberg spent $75 million dollars in the the 2005 election. Governor Corzine, across the river, spent $50 million of his own money in the same year. More than 50% of our governors and senators are millionaires. Some of them, like Schwartzeneger, Kennedy and Kerry are megamillionaires.
Allan Ornstein @ 33
Good evening Professor Ornstein. I join everyone in thanking you for shining light on these shameful realities.
I agree with your last sentence, and that is why I find it so hard to understand how people allow themselves to be distracted by the right wing “cultural” agenda into voting against their economic interest. I mean, in most contexts, it’s almost second nature for people to make decisions based on the financial impact to them personally; and it doesn’t take very much political acumen to see the “rob the poor, feed the rich” agenda of the current ruling class.
My position is to support free quality education for all through taxes. Years ago in Cali when I went to college every kid with a high school diploma was eligible to go to a community college free of charge.
Raven, The Hope Scholarship originally had an income cap on it that was removed after Zell left office I think. The problem with it is that it pays for classes but not room and board. If GA had more community colleges to attend it would be easier for those with limited means to attend.
Have made my home in Europe and have not seen any indication of the current phenomonon being reported there. It really looks like an educational problem, clad in economic camoflage, insisting on the “democracy” of the lowest common denominator, enforced by social exclusion of excellence. Nowhere else in the world is “bad” an indicator of approbation but it is there. Instead of class, what you may be looking at is economic effect of political bankruptcy and false social mythology as obscuring factors in reacting rationally to reality. Those with accumulated assets have been protected so far from the effects of educational failure, but they too will be eventually diminished as well as collapse sets in, it just hasn’t happened yet.
I haven’t read your book yet, but do wish to obtain a copy at some time, it sounds intrigueing. All the best…..
Oklahoma kiddo @ 50
I have a theory that private schools should be outlawed.
Excellent post & comments, one & all:
OT, but quite relevant- let’s not forget about an important HBO special on the eve of the Petraeus/Crocker “reports” that needs viewer ratings in order to induce more of same. It will be airing for the 1st time later this evening:
http://www.hbo.com/events/aliveday/
Allan Ornstein @ 48
But, Professor, don’t you think there’s a difference between someone born into wealth and privilege versus a person who has achieved great wealth himself or herself? For instance, I find the capability for direct empathy much greater from a Clinton or Edwards, even though both are now multimillionaires, than from a Bush or a Kennedy.
JPL @ 51
I don’t want to quibble but I don’t think that is the case HOPE History. We do have the wonderful “Technical Colleges” that fall under the control of the governor, unlike the University System Institutions with the supposedly “independent” Board of Regents.
Buckley,
I do not think that there is a conspiracy, but that some conservative politicians prefer to focus on emotionally laden and religious issues to divert the focus from real economic issues and in turn perpetuate inequality.
Even worse, when people have a roof over their heads, food on the table and heat in the winter, they tend to grow complacent.
The need is for voters to wise up and vote their pocketbooks.
From #52: economic effect of political bankruptcy and false social mythology
This, I think, is the root of the problem.
Do you think that REAL class warfare is the one being conducted against the productive classes?
See:
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2007/9/2/165213/4195
for a complete argument.
Buckley,
Thank you for your erudite summation of a very sorry, situation!
Professor Ornstein,
Thank you for your answer. I believe that the United States is at a point where if income inequality is not addressed, the values that have bound us together as a nation will fail.
I agree with Oklahoma kiddo:
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
Although I think you need the public funding of elections first. Without that, you can’t elect officials who will role back regressive tax laws (that lead to increased accumulation of wealth in the hands of a very few people).
I also agree will all of the commenters that the public funding of education — from pre-kindergarten through post-graduate education — is an absolute requirement to maintain both a middle class and to allow for creation of new industry. Have any economists studied California, particularly in light of both Governor Reagan’s changes to funding for the California state system of higher education, and the Jarvis-Gann property tax limitation (and the subsequent difficulties encountered by public schools), and the slowing of economic growth as a result of both of these changes?
Juan Cole on C-Span tonight
http://www.juancole.com/
Thanks Prof Ornstein
Professor Ornstein -
Thank you so much for coming to visit at the Lake. You’ve got a lot of great questions on your plate already so I’m going to lurk and listen.
Best I don’t get started on the deterioration of the level of incoming educational preparation (at all class levels) I witnessed over three decades in higher ed.
prof ornstein – do you think this past week’s downturn economically will finally resonate with middle-class americans?
And what of the almost four thousand American soldiers kia in Iraq. How many of them saw the military as their only way to get a college education. Something’s wrong.
And since I neglected in my haste to thank Prof. Ornstein, may I do so now…
Oklahoma kiddo,
I, too, believe that private schools should be banned. Since the colonial period there has been a two tier system of education, one for poor and artisans. Only rich kids went on to the Latin grammar school which served as the gateway to Harvard, Yale and later the University of Virginia.
Do you know that private school enrollments comprise 1.7 to 1.8%^ of US student enrollments? Do you know that Princeton student enrollments comprise about 33-35% of students from private schools? The two tier system of education that started more than 200 years ago still exists today.
Allan Ornstein @ 57
But the most seriously disenfranchised by this present system feel beat down and do not have much in their pocketbooks. During the elections talked with more families who had two parents often working two jobs and a kid serving in Iraq.
It does seem to be a well planned out strategy by the rich…keep the common folk running around in a maze.
I was shocked when I read in Ron Susskinds book “The Price of Loyalty” when Former Secretary of the Treasury Paul O’Neil shared that he and Greenspans plan for the majority of the surplus was to feed it back into the upcoming social security shortfalls coming up for the boomers. That surplus is gone. (after they fed the rich folk their tax cuts)
Tell me that was not part of the plan to force Social Security into the private sector
Oklahoma kiddo @ 65
Most
Kathleen @ 68
Susskind’s “A Hope in the Unseen” about an innder-city African-American kid and his experience in higher education is a worthy read.
MSM is complicit with the very rich – they parrot the things that the wealthy espouse….
Juslin,
The recent economic downturn includes more than just the mortgage crisis. It also includes unemployment, low paying entering job markets, outsourcing of jobs, college debt and growing credit debt among consumers. All these hardships hopefully may stir Americans to demand a bigger share of the economy’s productivity than it has received during the Bush “regime” where gains were earmarked for rthe rich and super rich.
Let’s take outsourcing of jobs, for example. In 2002 IBM employed about 3000 Indians. Today it employs about 53,000 Indians. IBM employs 200,000 employees in total. The percentages are staggering!
Kathleen @ 68
Having rubbed shoulders with them, they simply don’t see the common folk. They do not exist.
Except when the pool wasn’t cleaned on a timely basis, or the housekeeper didn’t clean something properly
Honest to god, they simply don’t see them. Money buys an arm’s length or longer relationship from Joe Sixpack.
juslin @ 71
Yeah like just after Katrina Hardballs Chris Matthews said “Katrina has ripped the scab off of racism and poverty in our country”. And on Matthews program the scab was put back on in about two weeks.
They have barely touched the aftermath of Katrina or poverty issues since then.
Hello Chris Matthews
oddmommy @ 53
oddmommy… good comment! But you already know that. ;0)
Allan, An eye opening book for me was “Carry Me Home” by Diane McWhorter. It painted a story on how important it was for businesses to have lower classes of different cultures clash. If the poor whites and blacks had joined together then unions would have been more likely. Do you think the same thing is happening today with the Latino culture?
My position is to support free quality education for all through taxes. Years ago in Cali when I went to college every kid with a high school diploma was eligible to go to a community college free of charge.
Recall that the WWII GI Bill was the “greatest economic flywheel” in the history of this country.
Allan Ornstein @ 72
Favorite book on this topic
“When Corporations rule the World” by David Korten
http://www.pcdf.org/corprule/corporat.htm
Oklahoma kiddo @ 75
Did you folks go to private schools? Did Prof Ornstein?
To be fair, “Countdown with Keith Olbermann” did cover some aspects of Katrina. Olbermann’s comment on the aftermath can be found on YouTube and is still relevant.
prof ornstein@72
and that sir is what ails us here – yet those in authority dont seem to grasp the enormity of it all… prob b/c their wealth insulates them…i see no reason to outsource jobs that we americans are fully capable of doing….
Kathleen @ 79
Are you asking me?
Podcast they need to keep the scab off and let the sunshine in week after week. They hold the spotlights ..use them.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
Does a GED in the Army count? I took it in private when I was a private.
Jonathan,
The middle class is being slowly stifled by the rich and super rich. For example, the top 1% own 35% of all US wealth. This is equivalent to the wealth of the bottom 95% (In 1980, the top 1% only owned 25% of US wealth.) Today the top 1% earn 22% of US income, which was equivalent to what the botton 150 million Americans earned.(In 1980, the top 1% earned 8%of the US income.)
In short, inequality is growing at a rapid rate.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
The three people who were discussing the issue of the elimination of private schools, Odd Mommy, Ok Kid, and Ornstein
Kathleen at 79
Public.
FWIW, I do think good-quality private colleges and universities help raise the quality of public universities by raising the standards.
Example: MIT sets standards toward which public-university engineering programs aim.
Kathleen @ 86
I have never seen the inside of a private school. ;0)
I was a middle class kid from NYC, and I was able to get into an ivy league school only by working my butt off all through high school. When I got there, I was appalled to discover that at least one quarter of the entering class were what they called “legacies,” i.e., those who got in because their dads went there — and a lot of those had C averages from their posh prep schools.
Sound like anyone you know?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 88
Kathleen @ 90
Were we talking about secondary, post or both?
JPL,
The influx of immigrants has created an evergrowing base of people who are willing to work for low wages and low end jobs which in turn has weekened labor unions. On the other hand, many of these immigrants are hard working and religious. They do the jobs
many Americans simply no longer wish to do.
as for private school – 2 of my kids were offered full scholarships to private school here in new jersey – i turned them down and those kids did extremely well in PUBLIC SCHOOL and went on to college
oddmommy @ 89
so until the private schools are gone do you think a good strategy is to encourage kids to apply to these schools anyway. Another way to break that system is to infiltrate and tell others that it is a possibility
Allan Ornstein @ 92
Amen.
Allan Ornstein @ 85
As you’re probably aware, Kevin Phillips warned us this was happening in the mid-1980’s (The Politics of Rich and Poor). Yet there still seem to be people, even educated ones, who can’t seem to tell that this is happening. What do you say to such folks when you encounter them? Assume they have short attention spans.
Kathleen,
In the dedicaiton of the book, I point out that I attended NY public schools and NY’s City College which at that time was tuition free and referrred to as the “Harvard for the proletariat.”
Allan, I was having a discussion with a friend who was an executive of a chicken processing company about work ethics and he admitted that the wage scale made a difference in the work force.
#96: What do you say to such folks when you encounter them? Assume they have short attention spans.
Tell them to read about the French Revolution.:)
JPL @ 98
In which direction? That’s a serious question, BTW.
undecided @ 99
But that’s class warfare. We don’t have that here.
FYI – my father is a graduate of City College, then Columbia. There was a path out of a low income upbringing in the 1930’s.
Cujo359 @ 101
We got no class
and we got no principles
Kathleen @ 94
well, i guess I was focusing more on private elementary and secondary schools. I do think that colleges are a different issue if that’s what you are referring to. And absolutely I think that kids should apply to them. I think you noted above that some offer good financial aid — that’s another reason I was able to go where I did.
I was fortunate enough to get a first rate high school education at a special public high school in NYC.
allan Ornstein at 85
I get that.
What concerns me is the language “class warfare” and “war on the middle class.”
The middle class is being wiped out, in my view, not because someone set out to destroy the middle class, which is what this language suggests or means.
In my view, the middle class is being wiped out for the same reason this planet is being wiped out: the notion that greed is good. And anyone who disagrees is a commie, a terrorist, or worse.
Jonathan,
I like your humorous spin to this serious issue.
Corporate profits in 2006 were 9.5 trillion dollars. In the mean time, 72% of the work force saw real wages (adjusted for inflation) slide since 1979. I can’t comprehend why the working force is so docile other than thinking that the unions have been dramatically weakened over the years. The result is that the GM model for workers, with good pensions and health benefits, has been replaced by the Walmart model, with low paying jobs and few benefits. I am afraid that America is in slow decline, at least as it re;lates to the work force.
Thanks Prof and Later lakers, I am a proud and bold peasant and I have to go and mow the fields before the sun is down (I am serious)
RJ Eskow @ 102
my dad too graduated from CCNY in the 1950’s, and you are absolutely right.
The whole war on the middle class is alarming, because what would ultimately be left, would be multitudes of uneducated, very low-income feudal masses, forced into low-wage employment by the few remaining mega-corporations or as an alternative; a kind of privately owned military force.
Fortunately perhaps, the economy will substantially readjust. If it does, many of those riding the wave of interest-driven wealth, will once again be suddenly re-united with the rest of us, and come to their senses. Or not. Just my far-out 2 cents.
oddmommy @ 108
My dad went the University of Illinois on the GI Bill, so did I.
Cujo, New immigrants will work at a lower wage, but what this person discovered was that longevity was also important and that required a higher wage.
raven @ 110
when, and why, was the GI bill eliminated? Or diminished to what exists today?
The current Mexican trucking debacle is ominous, because Mexico is building new ports. Goods from other countries will be off-loaded in Mexico and trucked into the US; thereby, by-passing tariff, etc. This could substantially put Longshoremen out of their jobs in many of the ports, both in California and all along the Gulf Coast.
here’s what I dont get…. who do these corporations think will be able to purchase goods and services if wages are being kept low? what! we need to work 3 jobs now?????
Cujo359 @ 96
Prof Ornstein, though late to the party, I’m grateful for your work.
Cujo359, great question.
Hope I don’t detract from the power of class privilege in the US by raising the topic of “frame privilege”.
[Jane, if you’re here - apologies for the f-word]
Our corporate media are so pervasive and successful in showing the world through the megacorps’ keyhole that MSM “news” consumers (still the vast majority) don’t even know other frames exist.
[That still leaves me stumbling about how to explain the concept - so I fall back on “stories”…aka parables.]
juslin @ 71
Then you are definitely NOT going to like the new crop of TV shows!
Article title: “Greed is good: That’s the networks’ mantra this fall as they attempt to cash in on series about rich, powerful characters”
http://www.starnewsonline.com/…..330/-1/XML
With dreck like this to wallow in, it’s no wonder the middle and lower classes don’t have time to pay attention to political decisions that may mean life and death to them.
dont forget there’s a massive port in NY/NJ also… longshoremen on the east coast will be affected too
Let’s thank Professor Ornstein for joining us today. This has been a fascinating and stimulating discussion. Thanks to everybody for participating, and check out the book if you haven’t read it already.
juslin @ 114
Would this be the tipping point? How much higher can American worker productivity go?
I would be interested in knowing whether Prof. Ornstein has snooped around the various science departments at various universities. It has been my experience that grants are funded at such a low frequency that entire research programs have collapsed in the last 20 years. As for the income inequality, hardly anyone in research outside of full faculty members is paid well, and so it is hard for bright people to remain in the second and third tier of research positions.
This demise of the middle class will be felt in a loss of innovation, and there goes the economic engine.
General question to the forum: How do you figure religion affects the class situation? It seems to me that quite a few of the higher class people like to be “religious” but it doesn’t seem to translate to morality like helping the poorer people to make a living.
Driveby before heading off to a music prof party – watching Fred Thompson (”Southern Fried Reagan”) on C-SPAN speaking at a campaign stop in Iowa. Calls the economic position of his listeners “the best in years.” Does he know this isn’t at all true, or does he believe this?
Thanks for your book, Dr. Ornstein!
waccamaw@116
just what america needs – more bullshit to placate the masses damn!
juslin @ 117
You are so right. Not to mention, that Mexico will not be held to any standards that were recently put into the bill to check cargo for radioactive devices and such.
JPL @ 98
The Bush administration brags about all the jobs that have been created since it took office, some 5 million jobs. The problem is that for every job created, there were more than two displaced job seekers in the entire Mid-West. As much as 55% of the hiring for those displaced workers was at $13 an hour or $27,000 a year. I wonder what the work ethic of the chicken executive would be if he made $27,000 per year.
podcast@121
please dont get me started on religion – the true opiate of the masses
Thanks to both Professor Ornstein and RJ Eskow..)
oddmommy @ 112
It’s now known as the Montgomery GI Bill
Thanks doc.
Democratic candidates debate on now on Univision, Spanish-language channel. Haven’t seen any of them respond in Spanish, but Obama is starting now.
thank you to prof ornstein and rj eskow – this has been very stimulating indeed ;o)
juslin @ 131
Seconded!
Dear Folks,
Time is up. I enjoyed responding to your challenging questions. I hope you read the book, Class Counts and if you have any other questions, please contact me at ornsteia AT stjohns D*T edu.
raven,
FWIW, I went to the U. of I. 1963-1970 for $135 per semester (health care included).
No G.I. benefits needed.
podcat @ 121
Religion in America generally means Christianity. Christianity seems to this outsider to teach acceptance of income disparity. The poor will always be among us. Storing up treasure in heaven. Give Ceasar what is Ceasar’s due, etc. In was a late 20th century innovation to preach that God shows His approval of those who serve him in this world with material riches. This enabled the Bakkers to have a lifestyle including air conditioned dog-houses, and pet matching giraffes. Their flock loved the idea that God smiled so benificently upon their leadership.
behindthefall @ 120
IIRC (is Frank Probst here?) in bio about 7% of “career-making” grants judged worthy of funding by peer review actually recieve funding.
This has been a long, slow drawdown (under Rethug administrations). In 1981-82 I was trying to decide between Ph.D. (fungal “molecular biology”) or M.D. The small program I was in greatly favored research over “pre-meds”.
Even so, in 1982 my advisor already saw that if I entered Ph.D. training the sharp decrease (non-war) research funding begun under Reagan guaranteed a very hard future for non-defense researchers.
[I didn’t go for the Ph.D.]
Jonathan @ 134
When I came home, after 25 months in Korea and Nam, I was 2 months short of my 20th birthday. That meant I had to live in a dorm because I was too young to live by myself. I picked Bromely Hall because they had a pool and unlimited chow!
Thanks for joining us… going off to buy a copy now :)
Futhermore, I think I should mention that
THHHUUUUUUUUUUH YANKEEEEES WIN!
Thanks Prof Ornstein and RJ!
Blub @ 138
Buy it through the linky at the Lake if you can.
kirk murphy @ 136
It would have helped you if athletes foot were a weapon of mass destruction, I am sure.
Allan Ornstein @ 125
FYI, He actually was let go but he really did increase the pay scale, which is why he was probably let go.
BigMitch @ 142
Immersion foot was.
i bet there’s plenty grant money to be had for research for the defense industry – just a hunch…..
This is OT, but not OT, and it is hilarious. In case you missed Bill Maher – check this clip out!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=
kirk murphy @ 136
Precisely.
You will ‘enjoy’ hearing about the experiences of two Ph.D.s (one from Yale) in a division in the department of medicine at an ivy-league school: one left to go work in a curtain factory, and the other went to sell auto parts. These were not stupid people.
raven @ 144
trench foot?
raven @ 137
raven,
You have my respect, FWIW.
I saw a LOT of 19-year-olds in the Nam.
I sometimes wonder what they’ve become.
Allan, Thank you for the discussion and I plan on buying your book. In my opinion the legacy of FDR is the strong middle class and it has benefited us all.
Elliott @ 148
Wiki
Immersion foot, archaically trench foot, is a medical condition caused by prolonged exposure of the feet to damp and cold. It was a particular problem for soldiers in trench warfare during the winters of World Wars I and II and in the Vietnam conflict.
Jonathan @ 149
GED to Ed. D. and it only took 35 years!
Big Mitch-
In was a late 20th century innovation to preach that God shows His approval of those who serve him in this world with material riches.
I think this concept predates the last part ot the 20th century. Isn’t this what Calvinists have always believed?
raven @ 151
thank you!
kirk murphy @ 115
Unfortunately, parables don’t work too well for me. The problem is that lots of folks are losing economically, and relatively few are doing much better. I think the danger in that is obvious, although admittedly there are people who overlook the obvious (parables might help there). The basic problem, as I see it, is that folks don’t believe it’s happening. This is probably, as you seem to be saying, because they aren’t being told any of this by the news or infotainment programs that they typically watch.
On Univision debate, asked about Iraq war, Kucinich said, basically, get out completely now and the applause was the loudest so far: outdid Hillary’s.
behindthefall @ 120
Ah, but anything faith-based? Well, that got the nod from our President.
undecided @ 154
Au contraire. Calvinists had a stern and spare view of what the just life should look like. The believe that hard work was service to God, but not necessarily that service to God was remunerative.
BigMitch @ 135
But Christianity is also the faith of radical social change and social democracy, in other various incarnations. Moreover, the faith of the wingnut set is barely recognizable to this Christian as Christianity at all… more like an amalgamation of the worst blasphemies imagineable. I don’t think the practice of Christianity is any more accepting of income inequality than any other, and the version of it practiced by the shrubbies is downright bizarre.
I did a Facebook poll a while ago.. in my “region”, I counted the number of self-identified “Christians” by political persuasion for those with last names beginning with “A” (not possible to do a general search of all members, because the highest count is 500 per search and its excceeded for all instances, in these case).. these were the results:
Liberal/Very Liberal – 49, Moderate – 81, Conservative/Very Conservative – 69
A similar search of both of my alma mater networks suggest a similar outcome, but roughly reversed for liberals and conservatives (more liberals than conservatives, on roughly the same proportion).
Not exactly statistically sound, but indicative, and, to be fair, Facebook has a young bias, and, among those identifying themselves as Christian, probably a conservative bias as well.. but, nonetheless, I think these results suggest that one cannot use religion to predict political alignment.
The only problem is that a segment of very noisy right wing extremists are trying to appropriate “Christianity” for their own form of twisted idol-worshipping superstition… where McMansions are equated with God’s grace.
behindthefall @ 157
Americans seem to be way out in front of their “leaders” on this issue. I wonder how many more such spectacles it will take to convince Democrats, at least, that it really is time to start withdrawing.
undecided @ 154
No, no, no! Calvinists believe that hard work is it’s own reward. Calvinists do not believe in enjoying anything.
raven @ 141
Ah.. thanks.. I’ll check on that :)
It’s easy, even for me, a Viet Nam vet, to ignore, really ignore, the U.S. troops in Iraq.
I wish we had a draft.
So some fucking rag would put up the pictures of Americans killed each day, each week, or each month.
No one cares about the casualties, really.
Because they aren’t the kids we knew.
And because, after all, they signed up for this shit.
the bible is all over the map when it comes to money…
Big Mitch–
Calvinists believed that God rewarded the righteous (or the elect) with material wealth. If you doubt me, google it.
GordonM @ 162
I thought Calvin enjoyed having fun with Hobbes
behindthefall @ 147
There goes a few million dollars in taxpayer investment – sacrificed because direct funding of (non-defense) basic research is “too expensive”.
In microbiology in 1979 I learned of a nifty bacteria which used sunlight to produce hydrogen – as waste product.
Even then – at the dawn of “genetic engineering” (my research advisor knew one of the core Genentech crew back when the guy was still in academia) – the energy potential was obvious.
Now we’re nearing on a trillion floated away on rivers of blood in Iraq…all for oil.
Rethugs’ thirty-year long assault on basic research funding has permanently damaged our national health and well-being.
Blub —
First, I emphasize my outsider status, to underscore what may be obvious: I don’t necessarily know what I am talking about. Having said that, Christianity in its earliest times had to arrive at an accommodation with Rome, and it was the religion of the down-trodden, outsiders. Promoting revolution against the world’s only super-power at the time was not good politics, and for proof I refer you to what happened to the Jews who were sent into exile in the year 70.
I agree that the religion of the so-called Religious Right is to Christianity what a banana is to a bicycle. But “Liberation Theology” is relatively recent, and hardly mainstream. IMHO.
Blub @ 160
From my outsider’s perspective, it seems that Christians can find a reason for whatever they want to do by selectively interpreting its teachings. What people take from their religions is mostly a reflection of what they bring to them.
Elliott @ 167
Aaaaahhhhh. My very bestest friends in the whole wide world.
Cujo359 @ 160
I’m having to depend on my wife to summarize the answers, but I’d have to say that all the candidates said get out of Iraq, apparently only one (”one with gray hair”) said do it more gradually than immediately. That being said, Kucinich STILL got the loudest applause (to my ears), which tells me that he translated well, spoke well, and wasn’t “too short”.
What does the Bible teach?
Take your choice.
Which I think was the intention of the various writers.
new thread upstairs, folks.
Oooh, awkward! Question to certain candidates: Why did you vote to erect a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border — and not along the U.S.-Canada border? Verrrry quiet audience, lotsa rictus in the smiling: don’t think Hill was expecting that one.
Cujo359 @ 169
I’d agree with that, and would also argue that the same is true with most (perhaps all) of the great religions.
behindthefall @ 174
I support a north-south wall running along California’s eastern border, and I also support sticking the governator on the eastern side of it, without a passport.
undecided @ 166
That is vastly different than the 20th C belief that because you’re rich, God must be rewarding you.
Both sides of my family have very strong Calvinistic streaks. Being prosperous is a duty. Not something to be enjoyed or flouted or dwelt upon or proud of.
Yeah, both have “wealth” and “belief” in the one sentence, but that doesn’t make them the same sentence.
behindthefall @ 172
I was referring to Congressional Democrats, also. Should have been more clear. I suspect the grey-haired one was Biden. Richardson’s stance has been similar to Kucinich’s on this issue. I’m surprised he didn’t do better, but he has been surprising me that way a lot lately.
In any case, there seems to be a real reluctance on the part of certain Presidential candidates still serving in Congress to really confront Bush on this issue, which is what it’s going to take to get a withdrawal started prior to 2009.
GordonM @ 177
I think you’re right… and this evangelical weirdness of hosting thousand-person prayer meetings where they openly pray for tokens of material wealth is just perverted. If this was ancient Greece of Mosaic Canaan, they’d all have been struck down with lightning bolts then and there. Poof.
sorry.. Ancient Greece OR Mosaic Canaan
Jonathan @ 163
If there was a draft that would of given Bush even more troops at his disposal to do whatever aspirations he might of been dreaming of in the Middle East (some of us right here right now could be viewing this blog from Iran)…
Taking into consideration to what all of us here has seen regarding the “I’m the decider” (so f*ck everybody else) personality traits of our commander-in-chief do you really think that pictures of those unfortunate American military personnel who died for his Iraq debacle in a newspaper would make a damn bit of difference in the direction of this ill-fated campaign?
We, the unwashed masses, have the voice and the will to change the direction of the war. But only through our election officials can we make this happen.
Blub @ 176
Ecotopia
risingemerging!We’ve seceded? woo-hoo!
Now for a chat about water and lawns and DiFi’s $23 billion secret giveaway deal to 500 wealthy Central Valley farmers.
DiFi wants to give them the $23 billion …’cause the farmers owe the US Treasury – that’s us – $500 million.
That’s right – DiFi and the Bushie Bureau of Reclamation want to give a handful of failed farmers already in hock for half a billion dollars almost fifty times their debt.
Where do we sign up for deals like that?
Hey DiFi – can I get fifty times my student loans back as a check from the Treasury?
kirk murphy @ 182
Well maybe now we know where the bodies are buried.
kirk murphy @ 182
Let’s strand her on the other side of the wall too….
Hello Professor:
As an advocate for low income people over the past 2 decades, I believe the class war began by going after the poor first by demonizing them and then by supporting the legislation targeting the poor with Welfare Reform ~ as if laws are supposedly enacted only for a certain people to obey. The poor seem to me to have been the canary in the mine from the Reagan administration on.
I agree with Molly Ivans, we did not start this war, the entitled elite did. Perhaps there is a mistaken realization that the people who leave the middle class are going up the financial ladder, when in reality they are sinking. Perhaps this hope that they are someday going to get rich, is why they bought the demonization of people in poverty in the 1990s, I don’t know.
When the poor tried to convince the middle class they were next during the Welfare Reform debate (and other similar attempts during local and national legislation), they were consistently marginalized and ignored. This disenfranchisement has caused deep pensiveness and reluctance within the lower classes to feel much of the middle class’s pain. After all they were warned, yet they joined in with the elite and bought the “welfare queen” stories. They refused to see that class warfare on the poor was code for race warfare as well ~ and if that worked then elitists would try other “codes” or framing. There are more whites on welfare than other nationalities, yet a welfare family is always considered and depicted as black, for instance.
Now the middle class is alarmed and aware they are next as they watch their numbers diminish. I would like to extend a hand to them as a somewhat bitter advocate because they have *no* idea the misery and disconnect from mainstream America that is in store for them, thanks to their avid assistance, but I am also wondering how I can help as well as how I can get over my own pensiveness and well, shoedenfraude, which I struggle with but also have to admit I possess. Because, one positive thing about their dwindling numbers is that they are beginning to see what the poor were trying to fight ~ not only for themselves but for ALL Americans to have entitlements and support.
I am not sure they will listen to us when we say, “what happens to the least of these people will happen to you’ and ‘the strength of society is within their weakest link …’ I would not wish poverty on my worst enemy and I want to help, but I am not sure how. Because after I overcome some of the pain and bitterness of disenfranchisement perhaps then I can wholeheartedly join the concerns of my fellow Americans even if they did ignore ours. Do you have any suggestions as to what to read, organizations, etc., who are struggling with these issues?
Thanks for your time
Cat In Seattle