While Iraqi voices are unheard in the “debate” over what to do next about Iraq, several Democratic senators have been talking way too much. First, on Thursday, Sen. Durbin gave an interview to the Chicago Tribune:
In the debate in Washington, the White House reportedly will ask Congress for an additional $50 billion to expand funding for the war in Iraq, a request that seems likely to prolong troop levels at their current elevated number into the spring of 2008, Durbin said.
Even opponents of the war, as Durbin calls himself, find themselves likely to vote for the extra money, he said.
(snip)
Though he said he is likely to approve the increased request — it would accompany a pending request for an additional $147 billion in war funding — Durbin said he would work to attach conditions to it that would require troops to begin coming home in the spring.
Great way to whip the votes to oppose Bush, eh? Then we have Sen. Harry Reid’s new “bipartisan” approach to negotiating:
Reid acknowledged that his previous firm demand for a spring withdrawal deadline had become an obstacle for a small but growing number of Republicans who have said they want to end the war but have been unwilling to set a timeline.
“I don’t think we have to think that our way is the only way,” Reid said of specific dates during an interview in his office here. “I’m not saying, ‘Republicans, do what we want to do.’ Just give me something that you think you would like to do, that accomplishes some or all of what I want to do.”
And good ole Carl Levin, “the author of the main Senate Democratic measure that would withdraw U.S. forces from Iraq is considering removing from the proposal a deadline for completing the redeployment, in an effort to attract enough Republican votes to pass the measure.”
Now, I’ve never heard of a winning negotiation strategy that begins with giving your opponent everything they want before they even ask. I don’t know whose voices Levin, Reid and Durbin listening to – though the Congressional Quarterly suggests they are talking a lot to John Warner – but it’s very clear they sure aren’t listening to us …or the Iraqi people.
And while the presidential candidates not currently in Congress have voiced their opposition to the upcoming supplemental, only Chris Dodd of the serving members has spoken up to make his position crystal clear:
It is a civil war in Iraq and those who have understood this issue have argued from the very beginning that there was never going to be a military solution to the civil war in Iraq. I intend to fight any efforts here, I’ll do whatever I can to support whatever our troops need to have a safe and secure withdrawal from Iraq. But I don’t intend to continue to fund the war over there that I think has no end.
I wonder why we haven’t heard a peep from Clinton, Obama and Biden? Are they listening to the same voices as Harry?
Dodd gets extra credit this week for also acknowledging the validity of Iraqi voices as he warned of the danger of repeating British colonial mistakes:
Presidential hopeful Chris Dodd said the United States risks repeating the mistakes of last century’s arrogance if politicians don’t allow Iraqis to set their own agenda.
Dodd, a Connecticut Democrat, said it’s unbelievable that U.S. leaders think edicts from Washington will make any meaningful change.
“While I respect those who come up with ideas on what Iraq ought to look like, that’s exactly the problem we got into back in the early 20th century when the British decided what Iraq was gonna look like,” he said, referring to British forces’ presence in Iraq after World War I.
(snip)
He said it’s up to Iraqis to control their fate.
“Iraqis have to decide what they’re going to look like and make up their own minds as to what sort of political configuration they want their country to be. You can’t decide this for them with even our treasury or our military might,” he said. “The idea somehow that we’re going to determine the future for them is something we’ve got to disavow ourselves of.”
Now that’s a statement we should be hearing from every Democratic candidate – respect for self-determination is the very foundation of democracy. More of this, please!
Note on the YouTube: I’ve just discovered this extraordinary collection of videos from Iraq – Alive in Baghdad. Alive in Baghdad is a weekly video blog featuring short films of daily life in Iraq and interviews with Iraqis. The Iraq team of experienced journalists works with the four member Small World News team to bring genuine voices from Iraq to the rest of the world. I have just begun to view all of these videos – the collection goes back to November 2005. There’s a small selection on YouTube and a full archive on the Alive in Baghdad site. (It also looks like they could use some financial aid – consider subscribing to their video service so these important voices are shared.)
h/t Thers and Jerid
(emph added is mine)
Related posts:
- DPC to Continue Drive for Oversight, Accountability for Iraq and Afghanistan Contractors
- You Can’t Chew Meat Unless You Have Some Teeth – Jerusalem Evictions Continue
- The Major General’s Temper Tantrum
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation





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THERE you are SIUN!
zip?
zed
zingo
Siun!!!
I would have gotten it, but I forgot how to spell “zed.”
Actually I don’t mind not hearing anything from Hillary and Obama.
So many bad democrats.
Siun!
the angel with the pitbull
thank you for all you do!!!
People outside this country look at America and ask, how have they gone so wrong.
They ask, how have the American people let the U.S. government do what it has done.
If the U.S. attacks Iran, no American will be safe outside the U.S.
The outrage will be too great.
Durbin, Reid, Levin, et al need to ask just exactly what this money is for, or is that a freaking national freaking security freaking secret, too?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
heh…heh…
ReElect President Gore & VP Edwards 2008!
Couldn’t ask for finer for sixteen years of honest leadership, IMHO.
BigMitch @ 6
Z. E. D.
wangdangdoodle @ 11
Dang, Ma’am, don’t freak out…!!! ;-)
Good evening all …
Tomorrow me and the lady are going to lounge all day around the pool. We have the day off. I think I’ll run down to the River early in the morning and pick up a couple of catfish for the bbq tomorrow afternoon. And then Tuesday I’m going to try to introduce solving eq.’s in three variables to a class of algebra II kid’s. I can hear the moans now.
The Craig story is now officially old news.
An organizer for a Rudy Giuliani presidential event plans to step down amid revelations of his arrests for allegedly extorting an FSU student in a sex case and his conviction for dealing in stolen state computers.
Barry S. Edwards, 45, told The Miami Herald that the charges against him were ”old news” — and were ‘unfounded’ in the student sex case — but he nevertheless thought it would be best to withdraw from the Pinellas County Republican Party fundraiser because “I’m not relevant and I shouldn’t be the story.” […]
The two criminal incidents involving Edwards were unrelated, and occurred within months of each other in 1998.
Elliott … Pitbull is asleep next to me … he is disgusted with the Dems too.
OKK
Do you teach matrices?
EPUd from below:
Jeebus. This is freaking unbelievable. Here is the link to the document. It truly appears he did this all by mail. I am incredulous that ANY court would allow this to be entered without at least a telephonic record, but that appears to be what happened here. Jeralyn Merrit says the same thing you heard about this being a no brainer to get set aside. I don’t know about that. The form doesn’t advise of the right to counsel as well as it clearly should, and that is at least a cognizable argument for setting aside the plea. However, if I were the judge, I would set it for a hearing and make Craig tell me under oath that he had no assistance of counsel in this process. I still maintain that he did and pulled this BS way of dealing with it intentionally.
http://www.talkleft.com/docs/craigguiltyplea.pdf
Basically, the Dems are afraid of voting to leave the Iraq (the M.E.) because of pressure from a certain lobby we all know well. It is this same lobby that is putting out the deplorable “freedom” ad focused on Rethugs that are vulnerable to Democratic take-over. Alas, Reid and the Dems will now be giving cover to jerks like Susan Collins (a person we could easily beat) because now she will be able to vote with them in a “measured” opposition to the war (meaning no viable means of measuring)voting on things of the likes of “none of the current troops will be there in 3012.”
Basically I think the we have already lost on the surge issue, because the DLC and the pro-war neo-con branch of the Democratic party have no intention of allowing this to happen.
What we need NOW is something with REAL teeth against the US bombing Iran. And we need that in days not weeks. If we bomb Iran it is the END of the little country that has been fomenting so much of this pro-war agenda.
Siun @ 15
Evenin’, ma’am!
Well Scarecrow thinks the extra money is for the attack on Iran … and it sure is looking likely.
The Times of London has the plans, Pat Lang says it’s on, it’s all pretty clear except they’re down to one carrier group though some think they will use missiles based in Qatar.
Siun @ 18
He has a lot of company right now. Every time they do something on an issue they make it worse than it was before.
They could stop it if they really wanted to – but that would require:
1. Courage and
2. Really wanting to
Jonathan @ 19
Yes.
Siun @ 18
I’m with him on that!
wangdangdoodle @ 11
They haven’t in the past. If the American people knew how previous supplemental monies had been spent, they’d put an end to it immediately.
Here’s a great idea. Write everybody in Congress, and say, “no more blank checks to the Bushies. Full audit of previously-spent money before giving any more.”
If the public only knew how little has gone for direct support of soldiers….
BigMitch @ 17
Is he on “The List”?
By the way, I’d love to make this thread a Craig et al free zone … the degree to which we play along with the distractions of the Rs has me very weary tonight.
Siun @ 30
I’m with you on that!!
Siun @ 23
Do you have a sense of the timing? The British withdrawing early today from Basra to airport had me wondering if they wanted everyone close together for a fast pullout.
Siun @ 23
Complete madness – what is left for us – taking to the streets with torches?
BigMitch @ 17
Not so fast, BigMitch. Check this out.
From Sara commenting at The Next Hurrah:
So, Sen. Craig (R) was not only soliciting anonymous gay public sex, but doing it where he probably knew he could get someone young, hawt, and desperate if he paid for it?
*AND* the enforcement effort that caught him was a result of the PATRIOT ACT?
(Just stares at the screen in gobsmacked awe at the unbelievable melange of schadenfreude, karma, and irony)
Maybe there really is a God.
I wonder if I can use it for a novel?
I mean, really, it sounds like something out of Kundera’s Laughable Loves or The Joke — except even more tragic and over the top.
.
VPM (Veto Proof Majority) evidently has become the official Democratic figleaf behind which our Congress-critters cower as they re-enable all Junya and his Repug criminal cabal desire.
“Patience Grasshopper, one day a VPM will magically appear. Until then, continue to pick lint from your navel as you chant: Yes Sir! 3 bags full Sir? My pleasure Sir!”
Spines of rubber, minds of mush.
Laura Doty @ 32
Excellent point. The British probably would have been vulnerable to attack after the bombing got under way.
Good evening everyone? Got the kiddos in the bed and am settling in for a nice evening at the lake.
montag @ 28
Jeez, montag, if they only new half what we know…
Jonathan @ 10
Mad Dogs @ 35
veto proof majority is just a LAME excuse.
I’m not the only one with the veto proof majority blues.
BMAZ — Paragraph 7 differs from the court approved documents which explicitly acknowledge and waive 6th A rights, according to what I have heard.
This is the first time I have seen the document, and the last section, not filled out by a lawyer, seems to be required if this plea was submitted by mail or phone.
Mad Dogs @ 35
The way they vote, they’ll need to have every seat in Congress occupied by a Democrat to have a veto-proof majority. Maybe some old fashioned standing up for principles might be in order?
Laura … I’m really confused on the timing and curious what folks think. We’ve always assumed they need carrier groups to pull it off … but they are down to one and the second will not arrive for 2-3 months (at least acc to the Navy Times – it can get there faster)
Now I read that they earlier installed missile batteries at places like Centcom HQ so they may not need the carriers?
They are surely ramping up … if anyone saw the CNN report this morning … on The Week at War or whatever, it was all about which targets not should or would we.
The Democratic plan on Iraq is becoming clear. They intend to give Bush everything that he wants, but they will feel bad about it.
Toby Wollin @ 39
Because the apathy is so great amongst the population that they don’t bother to vote, and a chunk of those who do vote religously don’t have the sense to pour pee out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.
Impeachment may not be on the table, but Iran is.
All they have to do is put nothing forward or only put up a bill with funds for withdrawal. They can pass that … then if Bush vetoes, it’s his problem. They are under no obligation to keep giving him more money.
Siun @ 23
Wont Iran greet us with defibrillator’s?
So let me mind warp on this scenario a little.. If we bomb the heck out of Iran…then we can leave next Spring?
Have you seen this? If you follow the link to the Kos diary, it appears that folks are the carrier are ready to rock and roll–as though we’re talking well less than weeks. Given also reports that a full-on media assault to advocate for this has been “ordered” by Cheney to start this week, I’m wondering if we’re in for a September surprise. I have a bad feeling in my gut about this.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 46
God Help US
I googled Iran Israel map – and came up first thing with this nice little colored map about how the war will unfold and from where. (scary).
http://www.heartland.it/_lib/_…..le_war.jpg
Siun @ 47
Stop using common sense, it hurts the dem leadership’s tiny little brains. It truly is so simple but about as likely to happen as me winning the lottery.
Laura Doty @ 49
Laura, for me that link was broken… sorry
Siun @ 47
It is that easy…!!! What’s the prob???
Laura – I saw that Kos diary but have some qualms about the reliability. It could be legit but hard to tell so I’m looking more at the press hype buildup and folks like Pat Lang Has the Train Left the Station?
Have folks watched the YouTube? It’s really amazing and the whole collection astonishes me ..,
there’s one about the Surge (which has embedding disabled or I would have used it) that is a must watch.
Good evening, Siun.
Richmond @ 21
The thing is, I don’t know how you can stop it. Bush is the CNC of the Armed Forces, with more or less unlimited Constitutional authority to “conduct foreign affairs”. If he calls that task force and says “go”-they go.
Siun @ 23
More likely the guided missile frigates in Qatar. Also, don’t forget the B-52’s in Diego Garcia, and all those USAF’s in Afghanistan. More firepower than they ever need.
How, specifically, do you stop it?
Siun @ 43
They can get there faster, but, my guess is that the ones they need are on standby in other theaters.
Don’t quote me, but I think those were Patriots in the event of an attack by Iranian missiles or fighters. They’d need mid-range ballistic missiles to the job–or cruise missiles, more likely. The Air Force really wants to be the lead on this one, and they’re the principal force telling Cheney they can do it.
They’re definitely ramping up the rhetoric, but, talk is cheap. They going to first try to get the public on their side as a means of coercing Congress to go along. But, I think bad weather sets in, particularly in northern Iran, by November, so I don’t expect anything until spring. Plenty of time to get carriers there in that span of time.
Siun @ 43
Reportedly, Iran has much better air defenses than Iraq. If that’s true, I’d think more of everything is in order.
Presumably, the cruise missiles are there to suppress the air defenses. Once they’ve done that, they can probably use most forms of aircraft, including large bombers.
Long range bombers can fly from the U.S. to Iran, thanks to inflight refueling.
Carriers are rather vulnerable in the Persian Gulf, which is where they’d most likely launch strikes from.
I suppose that carrier groups aren’t really all that necessary, but like I said, Iran’s a tough target, and the more air power that they have available the more “successful” a strike will be.
Hugh and Selise made and posted a US YTD comparison death chart…
BigMitch @ 41
I am going to honor Siun’s quite reasonable request after this. But in a nutshell, I agree. It could be deemed deficient on it’s face; but I
am not sure it has to be. As I said above, it will be fascinating to see how this city court judge handles this. There appears to be a legal thread from LHP coming later. I have to go eat, if you all are around later on the new thread, i would like to hear your thought. I will end with WTF was this court thinking in not having a more proper record?
I admired Mr. Bush for this action.
“The American leadership is determined to hold the international conference soon.” “President Bush has proven how steadfast he can be and will not withdraw his plans for a conference.” “President George Bush announced during the press conference that he is demanding an immediate freeze on construction in the settlements and warned that if the government of Israel ignores his demand, he will not hesitate to reduce economic aid to [America’s] small friend.” “We are the United States and this is the foreign policy of the United States.” “So long as I am president, I will continue working for what I believe is in the best interest of the United States … I am completely convinced that this is wholly beneficial for the peace process.”
These are all statements… from the Haaretz archive. The president mentioned was Bush Sr., and the conference was held in Madrid as planned, in late October 1991.
The ATlantic Monthly had a big article about B-2 bombers, which are stealth and huge. They render Iraq air defenses moot.
Siun @ 43
Good questions. I had thought they were going to wait until early 2008 to bomb, but that was just on the basis that they thought March was the best time to attack Iraq.
But right now, it looks like they’re ramping up for an attack in October or November — that’s assuming they’ll spend a month or two, starting in September, marketing/propagandizing the attack.
I keep hoping some sort of sanity will return and keep them from doing it, but I did the same thing before they attacked Iraq.
Siun @ 55
Link again for Elliot. This is to the Global Affairs blog of Juan Cole and colleagues. His colleague, Barnett Rubin, is the source of the Kos diary (which now is a headliner for this week’s New Yorker). It is, I believe, a very legit source.
Bush, Cheney,and the gang are certifiably insane. They have spent 6 years and untold treasure and lives fighting a country that has no army, navy or air force. Now they want to attack Iran, which has all of these. If they can’t figure out how to do it in Iraq, why in the hell would any sane person think they could do it in Iran? Honestly, I do not see how they plan to pull this off without a draft, which may just bring out the torches and pitchforks.
The $50 billion is the first payment on the Iranian War. The Unitary exec. really doesn’t need the Congress to approve the funding; if Congress gives the money, it is to maintain the fiction of their relevance. Things have gone too far, Congress can’t stop either war. It’s down to the military to call bullshit on the Republicans and the firing of Pace probably eliminated that possibility.
Just got off the phone with a good pal in Cali. We were talking politics. And I ran down four or five in the Democratic Party whom I do not like. My friend said it was dangerous to do the “circular firing squad” thing. I became diplomatically incensed and handed the phone to Lahoma.
Laura Doty @ 65
thanks! )
Sorry Laura … I made the mistake of assuming it was a link to the Maccabee post at Kos which is questionable I think … or maybe not.
I wrote this earlier today but it is apropos here.
A massive aerial campaign against Iran would not last 3 days.
Think of the first Gulf War. The bombing campaign began on January 17, 1991 and the ground war did not start until February 24, 1991. The objective of this campaign was not to destroy Iraq’s military but to soften it up. Iraq’s forces at the time were highly concentrated in and near Kuwait. Also take into account that Iraq was a country of about 25 million then vs. Iran’s 68 million now and that Iraq is 169,285 sq. miles in size vs. Iran’s 636,300 sq. miles.
The US Navy will not be able to guarantee the safety of shipping using the Straits of Hormuz or in the Persian Gulf. Insurance writers will not insure vessels, probably not even at astronomical rates. Tankers will not move. The oil will not flow. Oil markets know this. Upon the first attack on Iran oil will spike. If the attack is a large one, oil prices will go at least to the $120/bbl level and could easily double in price to around $150/bbl. Can you say worldwide recession?
An attack on Iran would greatly complicate our situation in Iraq. It could turn the majority Shia definitively against us. Attacks against US troops could increase significantly and our supply lines through the Shia South could be cut to pieces.
A 3 day attack does not take into account how long the Iranian response would be. That could last considerably longer, as in years. Hezbollah could strike out at Israel. Israel would strike back at Lebanon which would probably destroy the current Lebanese government and could also plunge Lebanon back into civil war. Israel might also attack Syria which would only further serve to turn an attack on Iran into a regional war.
Iran could also increase attacks in Afghanistan and destabilize an already shaky government.
While the Iranians are Shia, the wider Moslem world would likely see this as yet another attack on it. This could increase attacks on US and Western interests from North Africa to Indonesia and the Philippines.
And, of course, this would be a boon to international terrorism.
Not to mention the further alienation of our closest allies. It would be rejected by the Europeans. The Japanese will not thank us if oil prices go through the roof. The Chinese will be angered by our undermining their economic development. And the Russians (who still have all those nukes and ICBMs to carry them) will go further into Cold War mode.
Have I forgotten some things? Probably but I think you get the picture. Do I think that given all this Bush and Cheney would still do it? You bet.
montag @ 58
A little known fact about the Patriot system, having been a member of the second battalion to form up and deploy overseas, is it’s ability to be a Surface to Surface missile with pin-point accuracy!!!
What strikes me is that–whether or not we succeed in stopping this–we MUST take to the streets as never before. No way can we allow the world to imagine that this is okay with us.
I’m thinking banging on doors serious. Last week at our local MoveOn Take a Stand, I ran into an acquaintance who told me this was the first time she’d ever come out to a demonstration. She felt she couldn’t side step things any longer. We need to get our neighbors, our co workers, EVERYONE outside yelling.
To invade yet another country…I can’t even believe I’m writing those words. The world has to see pictures of massive crowds of people saying no. It may not change the outcome, but I hate the idea of people imagining this happened with our complicity.
BigMitch @ 63
Well…not necessarily. We don’t have many B-2’s, and the technology required to detect the aircraft has been advancing rapidly. IIRC, the Serbs knocked down an F-117 Stealth using a new form of radar that utilized cell-phone technology.
Put not thy faith in gadgets.
madmommy @ 66
The U.S. military can defeat Iran in short order, just as they dealt with the Iraqi military. The problem with Iraq is not a lack of military might, but rather a lack of understanding that diplomacy, and nation building was required and that these things require hard work. There was a woman from the Iraqi reconstruction effort on Bill Maher last night.
It was a definite holy shit moment. continued below.
Siun @ 43
With Pat’s most recent posting today, I had to make my own estimate of when:
The “IO” (Information Operations – i.e. propaganda) is just getting underway. Twill ratchet up in its audacious blarney (i.e. lies) as well as its feigned outrage (pearls clutched in a death grip) over the course of the fall and winter.
Can’t strike before the Prez political silly season is in full swing, ’cause this is to be the Repug’s primary campaign meme.
Shorter Repugs: “Onward Christian Soldier. Ours is not to wonder why, but to ensure that others die.”
Never have so many have so few to blame.
RonD @ 57
Hi, RonD!
I would like to know that also. My husband doesn’t think BushCo could possibly be that suicidal as to attack Iran, but it seems to me (and it has for some time) that it’s a done deal.
Will someone kindly explain to me the theory of the Israelis’ promoting our bombing Iran? This makes no sense to me at all. Yes, they feel threatened(though certainly they have more than their hands full trying to deal with the Intifada), but you can be sure that the Iranians will launch whatever they’ve got in terms of missiles at Israel as soon as the bombing starts. Now, we won’t examine too closely who this really benefits, since according to the Council of Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/publication/10903/shiite_muslims_in_the_middle_east.html#4
90% of Iran’s Muslim population is Shi’a and it is surrounded by countries whose Muslim populations or ruling factions are Sunni. We won’t look too carefully at the pressure that is probably being put to Cheney and Bush by the Family of Saud to make sure that Iran’s growing influence in the region (as noted by Al Maliki recently in his comments about “friends”)is controlled. If the US bombs Iran, the whole region will be put into play and other countries even less friendly to the United States will be forced into this – I would suspect Turkey, Russia and other bordering former Soviet States are just a few.
I know there are many here and elsewhere who feel that our foreign policy in the Middle East is being dictated by Israel, but I think in this case, the logic supports looking at Saudi Arabia first.
What about what Zbigniew Brzezinski says (h/t wigwam)? The Ultimate goal is…
Doesn’t the PNAC plan include the pipeline in Pakistan and control of Uzbekistan among other things? If this is what we, the US, intends to do..can’t somebody demand a damn debate?!
I really can’t see how we could possibly “win” in Iran without resorting to nuclear weapons.
If there’s one positive to come out of all the insanity of the last few years, which seems like it’s only going to get worse, it is that the fake “liberal leaders” are being exposed for what they really are. The sham of the last 30 years or so is completely broken down. Our task now is to get the general public to understand this.
We’re now able to do our own vetting and reporting on the actions of our Congresscritters without the verneer put on by the Conglomerate Media. We need to financially support places like FDL and the work Howie does to make sure we can fight this fight for the long haul. We desparately need more and more people reading here and similar sites.
If this Iran thing happens, it’s gonna call for drastic action. No more nice talk and tip-toeing around touchy subjects. They want another “war”?!? Well, they’re gonna get one right here in their backyard.
In the spirit of true bi-partisanship, let’s make Eisenhower proud, and get rid of these parasites once and for all!!
Siun @ 70
You know, to keep it clear, it seems I may have blended in my memory the Maccabee with Rubin. But Rubin is legit, whether or not Maccabee is. Maccabee, however, is the one that makes things sound so horribly imminent.
BigMitch @ 75
Sounds to me Mitch like you are in favor of bombing. I don’t get how you think this would help anything.
I still maintain if there were no oil in the Middle East we wouldn’t be there. We would not have gone there in the first place.
RonD @ 74
At a billion per copy, I am not sure a B-2 is a gadget. Here’s the article.
oh shit – here we go again!! and the dems will co-sign on this act? damn!! war war and more fucking war!!dems caving in again!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
Yes, that’s why we’re ‘negotiating’ with the DPRK, and haven’t invaded’em…!!!
Brinkmanship. Ain’t it great!
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. The Washington Consensus is for an indefinite occupation, and most Democrats are part of that consensus.
Dodd has always taken the clearest, strongest most realistic position on this. I really hope that he will make the next step, and point out that the actual debate over what is intended for Iraq is not being shared with the voters. The speed with which the Democratic leadership has agreed to another Friedman unit is still more evidence that they believe in an indefinite occupation by at least 50,000 soldiers in those permanent bases, and know that this position is unacceptable to the majority of Americans, and the majority of their constituents.
It’s time to put Dodd’s formulation in front of the other Democratic candidates. They know that admitting what their own plans are will cost them the nomination. We need to call them out, every chance we get.
What is the mission?
What constitutes completing that mission?
What is the last possible date American forces can remain there?
How can a sovereign government be established in Iraq under a foreign occupation?
How can you expect a sovereign representative government in Iraq to support military bases for the purposes of supporting Israel and opposing Iraq?
How can there be any doubt that this is an imperial occupation, when the leading candidate for a new government is a CIA asset, living in Jordan who performed horribly in the “elections” and is seeking the position by a PR campaign in America?
And how can there be any doubt, at this point, that the Democratic leadership is part of this Washington Consensus for imperial occupation of Iraq? An occupation that can only end, as Dodd points out, as it did for the British.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
I disagree. Oil was only a part of it. You had Bush wanting to take out Saddam because of the threat to his Dad. You had the military-industrial complex wanting to make zillions on arms sales etc. You had the idiot zion-fanatics thinking this would make Isr*el safe. And you had the rapturites who want all the Moslems gone and the Is*aeli’s all dead in the end-times scenario when the Christians get to rise up and meet god.
Oil had relatively little to do with it. If it had, why did they not get the oil back producing quickly???
So we blow the shit out of Iran.
Just as Hitler blew the shit out of Russia.
Or as LBJ blew the shit out of Viet Nam.
What does it get us?
I’ll tell ya: problems we don’t want.
it’s the sound of triangulation.
Jonathan
How? we have to choose between two pro-war major parties, who are bought and paid for by the same special interest groups who benefit from continual war and repression.
normally, when the political spectrum is this artificially constrained, other options should arise to fill the void.
the peasants with pitchforks thing won’t work…they are all too ready for that.
Reforming the dilapidated (D) Party probably won’t work, but the existence and example of a valid alternative peace/environmental/labor/universal healthcare Party would help those determined to perform the extreme renovations needed on the Democrats.
oh, and pragmatic (D)’s? silence and passivity in the face of Cheney/Bush’s run-up to war against Iran is complicity.
And if CNN is showing war porn propaganda 24/7 in September 2008, the (D) elecotral prospects everyone is so smug about today could be very different.
Richmond @ 83
You read me wrong. I despise war, and I think this war is particularly unjustified from a U.S. interests point of view. Nothing I say should be interpreted as supporting a new war against Iran. Can I be clearer? War – bad. War against Iran — especially bad.
So this is what I’m wondering, y’all.
If it came to this–to the brink of war. Would you strike? Would you take to the streets? Would you bring out everyone you could drag/cajole? Would you sit in the offices of your reps? Would you stop traffic?
Jonathan @ 91
well, you know, that’s just an understatement.
Hi Alicia!
I just cannot think of any actual, legal mechanism that can prevent the President from giving the order, or prevent it being carried out.
Nothing.
An attack on Iran?
hmmm….The Nightmare Scenario, pt3
IranianIraqi Children Starved of ChildhoodLaura Doty @ 94
Yes to all. Those are just minimums.
Would you run for office?
Richmond @ 90
Well… I suppose we will just have to disagree.;0)
CTuttle @ 72
Uh, huh. From Qatar to northern Iran? Not a chance. Qatar to Bushehr, maybe, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
So, what’s its range (within that scope of pinpoint accuracy)?
BigMitch @ 93
I’ll defend your stance, Mitch! Presenting the facts on the ground shouldn’t be construed as supporting the issue at hand…!!!
Included in the tales told on Maher last night was the story told of how the Bushies replaced a physician who was the world’s leading expert of reconstruction as the head of the Iraqi’s health ministry. The new guy, a young pup with no medical degree nor any relevant experience, decided that what the country desparately needed was an anti-smoking campaign.
She said that some of the people who were part of the U.S. reconstruction thought the looting was a good thing because it destroyed government infrastructure, creating a backdrop conducive to the “small government” mantra of these right wing true believers.
When the U.S. Government talks about protecting “vital interests” in the Middle East, they mean oil.
Taking a break. Back soon. Thank you Siun, as always, if this ends before I get back.
FWIW, Informed comment linked up with the Macabee dkos post. another point mentioned at informed comment…Roll out to war with Iran
sporkovat at 92
I think I hear a call for revolution.
I’m for it.
We here are not about reforming the Democratic party, as I see it.
We here are about designing what comes after the collapse of the United States.
Which has occurred.
As for an aerial campaign against Iran.
As I said above, Iran is a big country. A complicating factor in waging an aerial campaign is that you have many targets that you need to hit early. A first wave should target command and control, radars, air defenses, naval stations (some with ship killer missiles) around the Straits of Hormuz and probably the Shatt al Arab as well. Nuclear targets would also be part of this first wave. Some in Tehran but the really big ones are the uranium processing center at Natanz and a heavy water plant nearing completion at Arak. It is entirely possible that special forces might be used as part of an attack on these two facilities.
Other targets include airfields and their planes like the F-14s we sold them. Iranian naval vessels. They have many small speedboats that can be filled with explosives and used to attack shipping. Army bases would also be targeted, especially those associated with IRG and al Quds. Other nuclear related sites, dito.
Then you have infrastructure targets. Some of these would be hit as part of eliminating Iran’s command and control, such as switching centers and towers for telephonic and electronic communication. There would also be bridges and roads to hamper movement of Iranian troops. Finally and a big one, while most of Iran’s oil infrastructure would be left intact. Refineries would be a prime target as well.
Again I may have forgotten a few things but these are the basics.
Whoo Hoo! Leahy says no new AG until Gonzales probe is finished!
montag @ 100
Heh, I would have to kill ya, if I told ya!!! (300 Miles is an approved for dissemination range…) 8-)
bmaz @ 20
I’m still trying to wrap my head around the idea that *any* *lawmaker*, much less a US Senator, would be allowed to argue that they didn’t understand their rights.
Craig’s attempt to even make this argument, without any apparent consciousness that it makes him look like a gigantic idjit, just boggles the mind.
One is inescapably reminded of the apocryphal man who murdered his parents, then requested mercy from the court because he was an orphan.
Loo Hoo. @ 108
I hope Mr. Leahy will stick to that.
RonD @ 57 – The CNC is nowhere authorized in our Constitution to start wars of aggression. Quite the contrary. The Congress is explicitly given the sole power to declare war on behalf of we, the people. [Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 - which provides enough plenary authority to end Iraq and Iran simply by majority vote of the Legislative Branch, pending Judicial Branch review upon challenge, if Congress was in the least interested.] Violating the Constitution may be ‘old hat’ in Washington these days, but it doesn’t change the underlying document.
I’m not sure this latest $50 billion is the first downpayment on Iran. The $120 billion May supplemental, after accounting for the ongoing $2-3 billion a week burn rate for Iraq & Afghanistan through September, the domestic items in the supplemental, and the $9 billion or so in new MRAP vehicle funding, still left something close to $50 billion unaccounted for, as far as I could tell. Maybe it was somehow part of the domestic spending, but I don’t think so.
Reid, Durbin, and Levin are transparently “lowering expectations” because of their great lesson learned from the May capitulation blowback: they ‘raised the bar too high,’ said Reid, with their little stunt and sham of taking a stand in advance of their pre-planned end-game passage of the full supplemental, no strings attached. It was Carl Levin that time too, instantly erasing his binding timeline into an optional wish, in order to hit Mitch McConnell’s “glide path” to passage right on schedule…
These guys are asking for it. [But kudos to Dodd for that principled statement of respect for the will and self-determination of the Iraqi people. He ought to back it up with action in the Senate. One or two loud voices objecting there right now could make a real difference in this tragic drama, party leadership be damned.]
Loo Hoo. @ 108
I’ll believe it when I see it.
Siun,
Great article! I loved your post last week when you introduced us to Gorilla’s Guides. And thanks for tracking Sen. Dodd on this. Is he the only Presidential candidate with backbone?
Last year’s elections, if nothing else, were based on stopping the war. All the Democrats have done is peed in their pants. No wonder they’ve been branded as weak.
I still think that their best strategy is to deny funding. No bill. No money. Tell Bush to STFU. Then maybe the public would see them as being strong.
Bob in HI
BigMitch @ 85
I am familiar with the capabilities of the aircraft, as are the Russians, the Chinese, and the Indians, who have all been working on this particular solution for 15 years. Again, the F-117 Stealth that “took a stroll in the park” in Baghdad in ‘91 has already been detected, solved, and shot down with an improvised radar network, in Serbia. The B-2 uses similar technology.
Will the B-2 work? Sure. How well? That’s the question. How many billion-dollar planes do you lose before you decide that the cost is prohibitive?
IMO, the B-2 is almost a white elephant. If it’s too expensive to lose, it’s too expensive to use.
BigMitch @ 102
Best way to destroy a country is to get rid of its history. Unbelievable Mitch.
all you need to know about british intervention in the area / afghanistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F…..the_Charge
Loo Hoo. @ 108
Snoopy dance in the front yard!
Richmond @ 90[…]
You know, the end-times scenario only calls for 144,000 to be raptured.
I know math isn’t the fundies suit, but even they must know they number in the millions. What makes so many ofthem so sure, even if their faith is correct, that they’ll beat the odds?
Hugh @107,
The fact that we are even discussing this in the first place pisses me off no end. You are correct in your analysis of what would be first strike targets. Command and control, communications are primary targets.
In your opinion do you see a wave of Tomahawks followed by Stealth bombers?
Another point you touched on is the Straights of Hormuz, I would think that the Iranians would have that as a top prioritity to protect, control or disable.
sporkovit at 92
it’s the sound of triangulation.
No, it’s not. It’s the sound of Biden, Obama and Clinton agreeing that the wisest course is an indefinite occupation. Given the effect saying so would have on their primary campaigns, what you’re hearing is the sound of silence.
There are good reasons why people in Washington come to such a conclusion. There is no prospect for a self-sufficient, sovereign government in Iraq. There will be a conflagration, with an outcome unclear in most respects, but completely pellucid in one respect–the government that eventually emerges will not be an American ally, will not permit American bases and will not improve Israel’s sense of security. It also will tremendously damage American prestige, and make it much harder to continue funding a military-industrial complex that is incapable of completing a war of choice against an extremely weak opponent.
BigMitch @ 63
The military hardware freaks I know don’t think much of the B-2. The venerable B-52 holds more, goes further, faster and higher. One of them thinks the “stealth” business is nothing but boondoggle.
That aside, I can’t believe that Sadr won’t unleash his militias the moment something happens.
This whole thing makes no sense, and that’s taking willful stupidity into account. I am inclined to think this is a politically inspired feint. Most of you will probably say I’m crazy, but in this world, who can tell anymore?
Jonathan @ 106…
not revolution, but a total evaporation of legitimacy.
The Soviet Union and the eastern bloc states collapsed the way they did because everyone knew they were bullshit, they were a racket…even most of the internal apparatchiks knew at some level it was bullshit.
This country is getting just as polarized, corrupt and absurd, but too many people are oblivious.
As the ostensible ‘opposition’ party, in the political duopoly, the (D) Party deserves scrutiny as to whether it is has legitimacy as a representative of anyone who does not write large checks.
Sept. 2, 2007:
Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, the committee’s top Republican, said questions surrounding these issues need to be pursued, but should not be linked to confirming Gonzales’ successor.
“There are some important questions to be answered, and congressional oversight can do it without putting a lot of preconditions and tying up the confirmation of a new attorney general,” said Specter.
I have to say, the video and these statements melded in many ways for me … the man describing his arrest and beating talks of looking with hope to the American officer who arrives, explaining to him that he was just an engineer on his way home and please stop these guys from torturing me … just as we keep looking to the leadership with hope to stop the Bush madness … The officer just answered “continue” and it seems like our leadership is doing the same.
Richmond @ 21
By “little country” I assume you mean Israel. But why would the Israelis promote a war which would be the end of their country?
Surely they can’t imagine that U.S. bombing will instantly wipe out all of that Iran’s ability to throw deadly missiles at Israel. Especially given the Bush regime’s record of (non) achievement, such an assumption would be insane.
just got back int town and epu’d……oh well……..
siun says-”Now, I’ve never heard of a winning negotiation strategy that begins with giving your opponent everything they want before they even ask. “
i’ve tried really hard this last month to imagine, have i ever done this, and if i did, why??????? can’t remember one time, ever………..so am having a hard time imagining why they are doing it………of course, during my former marriage, i did supply everything needed even before anticipated, but finally fought my way out…….well, wait a minute, my former marriage, maybe i did that, are they doing that? the abusive marriage fulchrum? well, we need to supply the hard love solution, get the hell out of the bad marriage, that the partner doing it has talents beyond compare, and need to be used in other venues, to benifit everyone else, who deserves it………..
it amazes me how people keep trusting, expecting a different outcome, the same as an abusive marriage, really seriously blows my mind………..really does.
Ralph @ 126
I agree, but it seems we may both be wrong.
JGabriel @ 119
Good one. And hate to follow it with something academic, but Max Weber wrote provocatively about the Protestant Ethic and how hard they worked so that they would appear to their neighbors to be “chosen” by god. Well it may be the same thing here. No one would dare to say they would not be one of “raptured” because it would suggest that they did a bit too much sinning.
JGabriel @ 119
Because deep in their craven little hearts they think that only themselves, and maybe their immediate family are really true believers. If push ever came to shove most of them would sell out their fellow church members for half of what Judas got.
The next Israeli PM, Bibi, has been pushing hard for the U.S. to attack Iran.
The Jerusalem Post is as well … I may post about that tomorrow.
And the fundies say that unless the Jews convert to Christianity at the rapture, they will not make it to Heaven. Bizarre.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 131
how can this insanity be happening?!
JGabriel @ 119
***
JG, I believe the 144,000 refers to “converted” Jews, not counting the raptured fundies. Hope somebody will correct me if I’m wrong…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 131
What better way to take the eyes of the world off the fiasco that was Iraq than to find a new place to bomb – so surgically “exacting,” so dramatic, so shock-aweing, and so armament expensive (France will contribute some military weapons to this venture I guess).
CTuttle @ 109
So, Doha to Bushehr, 262 miles as the crow flies. Maybe useful, but pushing it without a good radar signal of the site (of course, maybe AWACS could help with that). Nope, my guess is that they were put there hoping the Iranians would do something. Besides, they deployed PAC-3s there, did they not? PAC-3s are hit-to-kill and don’t have a warhead, yes?
jackaroyd @ 121…
that’s kind of what I meant. they can’t be publicly saying the total opposite of what they have tacitly all agreed on…the occupation will not end under a Democratic President.
As to the various reasons? there’s the Washington consensus that is bi-partisan…America rules by military coercion, with the price paid by peasants both foreign and domestic, and therefore irrelevant.
Jonathan @ 8
Past time to start calling them out one name at a time – and withhold any and all grass & netroots donations unless they are on public record to stop the war machine. Boycott candidate rallies, or show up and demonstrate loudly & clearly they do not represent the American people. Make the gutless dems so miserable, especially the leadership with direct opposition actions throughout their respective districts and why the hell not threaten and follow through with local, regional, and state boycott actions:
i.e., designated strikes of not showing up for work, etc. et al. Organize, organize, organize.
Most important of all withhold any and all support including campaign donations and civility. Let them know we’d fire them if we could and may yet do so at the ballot box if they don’t get out of bed with the warmongers.
Where is Dick Tuck when he has never been more needed to come to the aid of his country?
Richmond @ 90
Because they’re oilmen. The higher the price, the more the profit.
I wish these people figure out what should be a very simple message: no. whatever shrub wants, no matter what the issue is or how its dressed up. No. We have no faith left in him, and in anything he does or might do. None. More importantly he’s a lame duck. He can safely be ignored. So. Just. Say. No.
montag @ 137
Heh, you under-estimate the system’s capabilities and the warhead’s composition…!!!
sporkovat
I love it here at FDL.
Rationality. Honesty. Everything wonderful.
But I think I’m too much a revolutionary.
Not a matter of patience.
A matter of ideal.
And, it seems one gets far more critique of the bombing Iran movement in Isra*l than here. Here is a good piece talking about why it will not have the intended ends:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articl…..94,00.html
Montag … Seymour Hersh was reporting … like two years ago, a year ago? … that we have special ops in Iran prepping targets. I suspect they have plans to help with targetting when the time comes.
Finally, re timing, it is unlikely that Bush would attack Iran until the September Washington debate is over and done with. So the most likely timeframe would be October to the end of April. By April the window of the surge will have closed and we will have no more troops to commit to it.
The most likely time of an attack would coincide with a new moon and possibly a Friday. New moons occur on Oct. 11 (Thurs.), Nov. 9 (Fri.), Dec. 9 (Sat.), Jan. 8 (Tues.), Feb. 7 (Thurs.), Mar. 7 (Fri.), and Apr. 6 (Sun.)
So if I were guessing I would say at the moment that the most likely dates of an attack would Nov. 9, Dec. 9, or Mar. 7 but that’s just me.
Siun @ 144
oh please, let’s pray that time doesn’t come!
Blub @ 141
Bush has always been a lame duck. He’s is just the front man; he decides nothing.
Loo Hoo. @ 108
Let me see. By my count, Acting AG Paul Clement was #4 at DOJ, wasn’t he? Isn’t it true that #2 also needs a Senate Confirmation? I think what this means is that Clement will be de facto AG for the rest of this year. Which is probably just fine with the White House.
I think it would help a lot to slap a few perjury and obstruction of justice counts on Gonzo. And then for the SJC to call Clement to testify about a few more things, just to see if the idea of a few perjury and OJ counts of his own might help concentrate the mind of Mr. Paul Clement.
Bob in HI
Well, let’s see…hmmm…now who would benefit from $9 for a gallon of gas?
Ya think that’s funny, wait till you see how THAT “Trickle Down Economy” works.
Steve-AR @ 148
True.. I was referring to Dem members of Congress like Durban. It just doesn’t make sense for them to say things like that… their default mode on a war appropriation bill should be “No”.. then, maybe, just maybe, back off that position a little upon line-by-line justification of essential items (like body armor and munitions for soldiers still stuck in Iraq)… not “oh.. I’ll probably vote for it, but…” Dems should be made to practice saying “no” over and over again, every morning, in the mirror.
Hugh @ 146
I concur with the new moon being a launch date, I was trained in the notion that; ‘We own the Night’!!! Trust me, it sucked, but, ya gots to do, what’s ya gots(ordered) to do…!!! ;-)
Siun @ 125
As we’re painfully aware around here (largely through your efforts Siun), the needs and wants of the Iraqis has nothing to do with the US invasion. The purple finger elections were an obivous sham to most of us then, and now that Shrub and friends just willy nilly put anyone they want in place at anytime, it it’s been proven. I don’t remember any news stories at all about a pre-invasion general uprising of Iraqis asking America to invade. From what I’ve read, even Saddam’s enemies felt the takeover needed to come from within the country. Now, even Nancy Pelosi is blaming the “Iraqi people” for not stepping it up. We have so much work to do still.
With Iran now, the neocons obviously don’t care what Iranians think. We know there’s no publis outcry for an occupying force. They have elections already, and recently voted down most of I’madickwad’s friends, so they can’t use that excuse this time.
It’s all so blatant. Now if we can more people off the Conglomerate Media teat, our Constitution might be able to actually correct some of these wrongs. Donate to FDL whenever possible.
Jonathan…
veering OT, but have you read any Hakim Bey?
http://www.hermetic.com/bey/
he was big on the importance of the “need to cultivate certain forms of invisibility or social camouflage” way way way before contemplating anything as dramatic as ‘revolution’… as well as practiced autonomy being an end in itself.
if enough people are that far along, well, they’ve been very successful at being invisible.
GordonM @ 140
Yes, but it would have been better to put it into the reserve, keep the prices high, and then draw on it later.
CTuttle @ 142
At any rate, like the B-2, they’ll be of greatly limited use in any three-day siege of Iran.
And, if you’re suggesting that Patriots are nuclear-capable, you convinced me. The Army are even bigger assholes than I imagined. It’s definitely nothing to crow about. Otherwise, they’re little better, in surface-to-surface mode, than a monstrously expensive 250 lb. bomb.
sporkovat at 154
Haven’t read Hakim Bey, but thanks for the tip.
sporkovat @ 138
Yep. And don’t forget that 80% of Democratic Senators voted every penny for Iraq that Bush asked for just a few months ago, and even tacked on some more money for good measure. They’ll do the same again this time. It’s a terrible mistake to believe that the Democratic Party is anti-war just because the key figures speaking out against the war happen to be Democrats.
Among presidential candidates, Clinton, Obama, Edwards, and Biden have all been very clear that if elected they will carry on the war in Iraq, just with fewer troops. They will all increase the size of the military, Biden by 100,000 troops, the others are more coy about the numbers. All have said that the troops withdrawn from Iraq won’t be coming home, they will be sent to Afghanistan and used to threaten Iran.
Kinda interesting. My daughter just brought home a new beau from Lebanon. He’s Christian and an American citizen, because his mom came here to deliver him 21 years ago. He was there last summer during the Israeli bombings, and apparently is was a bit of sport for the Lebanese Christians to watch the bombings of Hezbollah strongholds.
He thinks George Bush is great…
pow wow @ 112
Agreed, but…I think the assumption of the Framers was that if the nation was attacking another country, it was “war”. Of course, now we have police actions and so forth, with the result that Presidents of both parties have deployed troops into combat literally thousands of times, under the authority to conduct foreign policy, with no check other than funding. The Constitutional barrier against discretionary war by Executive fiat is effectively dead, it seems to me.
I think. Or something.
montag @ 156
Oops, did I infer that? Silly me…!!!
Good evening all: Great post, fabulous discussion.
This is no longer about cajoling the dimacrats, they are complicit,sufficiently, for the horror to begin. However difficult this may seem, let us put ourselves in the place of the Iranian people. Do any of you have any idea what you would devote your lives, your fortunes and your sacred honor to if your nation were attacked with such calculated viciousness? As to how we will be judged, consider Nazi Germany. Who were the ‘good’ Germans and what protection did that ‘goodness’ provide? Either at the time or in the judgment of history? We call ourselves a ‘democracy’ yet all feel powerless to stop a too-powerful executive. It is absurd, now,today, to expect some ‘leader’ to arise and ‘lead’ us to the promised land. It is precisely that paradigm of ‘leadership’ which has brought us to this place. The nature of leadership MUST change or we are doomed to extinction. As a species, we absolutely must needs change our notions of leadership and followship(!).
I wish VP Gore would get into the presidential race as an independent. There seems to be a void in leadership which he could really fill. The current Dem. leadership is way too disorganized and most of the senators seems to have some sort of bill on Iraq of their own which they keep on re-working to say anything that makes any sense at all.
Steve-AR @ 148
Gillespie seems to think so.
Bustednuckles @ 120
The Straits of Hormuz are key. Close them and you close down the world economy. It’s that simple.
As with all these operations there would be a mix of attack modes. F-117s might be used in conjunction with special forces against Natanz, for example. Tomahawks against stationary targets like communications centers in Tehran. Regular aircraft and cruise missiles against airfields and naval stations, etc. B-2s and B-52s could stand off and fire cruise missiles into Iran as well. Like others I agree that the B-2 is a Cold War dinosaur and I don’t see sending in a billion dollar bomber into Iran for no good reason.
Loo Hoo. @ 159
I’d be happy to introduce him to my fundie theocon neighbors (who are an incredible treasure trove of information for me, on their world, by the way… as long as I remember to keep my mouth shut and just listen). They’d get along royally, I think.
Siun @ 125
That’s what struck me too, Siun. He was hopeful that the American officer would help. How many Iraqis have we lost forever because of this type of behavior?
Remember that VP Gore was VP during the sanctions.
Just sayin’ we need to look really carefully at our desire for a hero … they seem to be in short supply.
That said, I find Dodd’s statements strong and heroic … I think he has a very old-fashioned belief in things like the constitution and I know he’s very serious about international law. Maybe we should be more supportive of candidates like Dodd who are on the right track?
Alecia @ 163
Hurray! My dream is that both Gore and Bloomberg enter the race as independents. Then I can ignore both political parties and watch those two battle it out :)
Blub @ 166
How long can you go before you begin to whistle and steam comes from your ears? My personal record is about 15 minutes, then I must excuse myself and go bang my head against the wall.
Jonathan @ 154…
I know that link has a ton of stuff… the Temporary Autonomous Zone is probably his most well known and influential work.
DrenchedOtter… yeah I believe it on the 80% voting more money for more bloodshed.
I had a stat somewhere showing that 6 out of 10 senators with the most
bribescontributions from the military industrial complex were democrats…argh can’t find it now.Loo Hoo. @ 167
Pappy Bush lost the ‘goodwill’ of the Shi’ites in Basra shortly after GW I, his son has certainly continued the tradition…!!!
Siun at 168
I agree that the sanctions imposed on Iraq during the Clinton administration were wrong.
Wrong, but also stupid.
DrenchedOtter @ 169
he.. you do realize that there’s at least the outside possibility that if they both enter the race it could conceivably be on the same ticket? ;P
newspaperbrat @ 139
I agree. Withholding money is really easy. I have been sending every envelope back with a note stating that when the dems stand up, I’ll send a nice check. Haven’t once heard anything back.
Alecia @ 163
In their hearts the Democratic politicos know Gore was robbed of a legitimate win for the presidency. I prefer he steps to the plate at the time of his expected Nobel Peace Prize in October, announcing shortly thereafter. Let Hillary and Biden, etc. et all chew on that!
Siun @ 144
Sy Hersh also reported that the teams sent in were of local composition, and that the Iranians claimed they were getting picked up frequently. And, it was a little over a year ago (April, 2006).
Still gotta have somebody on the ground to put a laser on a target for that sort of laser guidance to work. Patriot is radar-based, for the most part, I think.
Look, there’s no question that the U.S. has technological superiority over the Iranians (even if the Iranians have bought some of a Russian new-generation air defense system). They haven’t had a decent supply of spare parts for their planes since 1979, fer gawd’s sakes.
That isn’t the question. The question is, will the U.S. use that superiority to attack a country because Cheney has a hard-on for them? And what will be the aftermath of that? Another ground war, or a succession of low-intensity attacks on us so that the Bushies can say, “Lookie, lookie, they’re terrorists!”
No matter the end result, everybody loses. Everybody.
The other day I was talking to a neighbor and she mentioned how great a job she thought GWB ws doing. I just couldn’t let it pass, so I clued her in to just a few of the most heinous misdeeds committed by her hero. Her next remark nearly knocked me flat. She said that maybe he was the anti-christ, but that was ok because that just meant that Armageddon is right around the corner and she’d be raptured. How in the world do you counter this sort of madness???
CTuttle @ 161
The speaker implies. The receiver infers….
Besides, I hope you know what you’re implying.
Yes, I know it would be quite easy to do. Hell, we were making linear implosion shells for 75mm recoilless rifle shells by 1960 or so. The technology is far from difficult, these days.
The real question, Mr. CTuttle, are they bloody fuckin’ stupid enough to use them?
Loo Hoo. @ 175
I love that idea. That’s what I’m gonna start doing. I get several a week. haha
Blub @ 141
They should have learned that from Nancy.
David W. Bartoo @ 162
That is a very good point. Attack Iran and you can safely write off an entire generation of Iranians. Bush and Cheney think we can bomb them into democracy and that they will thank us for it. Some people never learn, but then they had other priorities during the Vietnam War so maybe they didn’t get the chance.
Siun @ 168
Dodd’s position has been evolving. He did not speak in terms as strong six months ago.
It’s admirable, actually. Everyone else hears scary messages from the administration and their surrogates, and accept those messages uncritically. Dodd apparently hears the BS, and becomes more skeptical.
As for Dodd becoming the next president? This man is acceptable.
Richmond @ 51
Interesting how all those air bases neatly surround Iran. Makes me wonder if this, or something like it, hasn’t been in the works for a very long time.
madmommy @ 170
Oh, if I just happen to be in the right mood, I find them positively entertaining. Like the time they explained to me why their god wouldn’t want the government to help Katrina victims because he is testing them, not the government, or the time they told me about why the poor and uninsured deserve their status because they’re where they are for failing to exercise “personal responsibility.” One just has to listen while pretending that one is watching an episode of the Simpsons… or Married with Children. It’s very educational too.. to have a window into the perverse world of the hard twenty-five-percenters. But then again, I actually do watch O’Really, occasionally, for the same reason.
Montag … I think, at times, that they believe their own insanity so in their minds a little bit of carpet bombing will take care of Iran then they’ll dust off their hands and look for the next.
Hugh @ 165
I think you’re pretty close on tactics, although I would disagree with you on the effectiveness of the B-2, as a first wave attack weapon it seems to me it has performed very well.
But tactics aside, my question is, what next? Nobody seriously doubts that we could inflict enormous damage on Iran if we want to, but then what? Are we going to send in an army and occupy the country? What happens when thousands of disorganized, angry Iranian teenagers flood over the Iraqi border demanding vengeance? Are we going to mow them all down with automatic weapons? There really is no military objective here that I can see.
montag @ 177
It is Lose-Lose for all parties concerned… the system is not reliant on radar, it is heat-seeking, radar-guided, and, gps enabled…
Siun @ 187
Yeah, I know. When has there ever been an aggressive war without consequences, however?
Blub @ 186
I admire your patience. All I can think of when dealing with these whackjobs is that they are trying very hard to take over this country. Some of them would make the Taliban look like Mardi Gras.
madmommy @ 170
If the neocons send our troops and/or missles into Iran, I’d say all pleasantries end.
Suggested talking points (might want to cover the kids’ ears now):
When someone says, “You don’t support the troops!” You say – “Shut the fuck up, you fucking tool, and get your dumb ass outta my fucking way, you goddamn idiot. I’ve got a Constitution to restore and people’s lives to save.”
When someone says, “Why do you hate America?” You say…well, just see above.
When someone says, “We have to stop over there before they attack us here.” You say…you get the picture…
This has gone on long enough, and I sincerely believe if someone insults us with those robotic line anymore, they deserve that kind of response. No more talk. Only action.
montag @ 179
That is the $64,000 question…!!!
The likely US bombing of Iran was also the “subject” of a special seminar at the Aspen Institute (as in Libby’s aspen roots poem to Judith M) in 2006.
http://www.envirosagainstwar.o…..temid=3333
http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..001586.php
madmommy @ 178
Madmommy: This always cracks me up. Google has an archive section called “Google Zeitgeist”. It lets you know what the 10 top queries were to google during certain times.
Here are the top 10 q2ueries right before 911
1.aaliyah
2. powerball
3. code red virus
4. mariah carey
5. baycol
6. N503is
7. travel
8. lisa harrison
9. american pie 2
10. etna
These are the top 10 queries right after 911.
1. nostradamus
2. cnn
3. world trade center
4. osama bin laden
5. taliban
6. afghanistan
7. nimda
8. american flag
9. bbc
10. fbi
War story
In the fall of 2002, was sitting in a Japanese-French restaurant on Nob Hill (San Francisco) with the then wife of a current friend (long story).
Talking at the top of my voice, because I was excited and had had 2 beers, I asserted the U.S. would never invade Iraq. It was insane.
Everyone in the restaurant heard me.
I lost that bet.
I have the feeling I’d lose the same bet now as to Iran.
God help us all.
Fern @ 185
Yes, true. I mentioned above the neo-cons at the Aspen Institute have been busy setting this in place. And of course Valerie Plame’s group can no longer determine nuclear threat because they were “dismantled.” And, we had the UN bring their inspectors back from Iran, so no opposing views of the supposed threat from them.
madmommy @ 191
Oh, and I forgot to mention the funniest thing about those two. If I ask the male side of the happy fundie couple something, apparently he’s allowed to answer confidently, but if I ask the female side something, she cheerfully runs off and grabs her hubby, then nods rigorously when he responds. It’s like a Stepford thing, without the silly sun hats and ’70s dresses.
BTW, has anybody been following John Agresto’s excellent commentary on Booktv(C-span2)?
Blub @ 186
Had a neighbor like that for 12 years in Cali. Very sincere. Worked like hell (at least seemed to) to be the very best he could be (even sounded like Homer’s neighbor).
They had a dog that wouldn’t stop barking, though he would sometimes try “discipline”. One day, thinking they weren’t home, I talked to the dog through the fence for 5 minutes, got her quieted down. Oops, they were home. He didn’t say hi for a couple years.
Eventually, his kids went off to college. Boy came home with tatoos and shaved head, girl came home looking, er, distinctly un-chaste if you get my drift.
Blub @ 198
That’s hilarious! Thanks for a good laugh.
Richmond @ 197
Actually, the IAEA inspectors are back and have issued a very recent report (last week, sometime) outlining Iran’s compliance with inspection procedures and emphasizing there’s no indication of diversion of the fuel enrichment program.
DrenchedOtter @ 188
(my bold)
There is no exit plan, but if there is anything we have learned about Bush and Cheney, they don’t do exit plans.
One thing that Bush and Cheney don’t get is that Iran has been there for 3,000 years. But we won’t be. One year or ten we are out of there, and whenever we do leave Iran will still be there. It’s the colonialist’s paradox. They act like their empires will last forever but it is not they but the colonized who remain at the end of the day.
RonD @ 160
It certainly is, or will be, if no one cares to restore it. The standards to which our government is held are up to us. That’s why impeachment is so vital, with regard to the conduct of the Executive Branch, and why a corrupted Legislative Branch which is immune to public will is such a very drastic and lethal development for our system of government.
Http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..v=hcmodule
Blub @ 198
Truly frightening.
CD @ 135
I never heard that one before. You could be right, but it sounds rather legalistic for the New Testament. Especially Revelations, much of which reads like it was written after ingesting some particularly potent mushrooms.
It is widely reported in the lefty blogosphere that Israel and her supporters are beating the drums for this war against Iraq. I don’t know if this is true or not. However, I willsay that my impression is that Israel will support the United States, and any pro-war vs. Iran statements that you hear coming from Israel, may simply be an effot to do or say what they think Bush wants to hear. Just a guess, I have no special knowledge.
montag @ 202
Thanks Montag- I hadn’t read that. And, I read quite a bit. Strange that this point isn’t getting out in the MSM.
Your name, is it as in “my tag.” -clever
GordonM @ 200
I went to a very religous college for a year, before I was asked not to return (bizarre story). While I was there it became very clear within the first week that a small percentage were deeply religous, headed to seminary or to marry a preacher. The rest were preachers kids and others who’s parents thought that the school could tame them. We had a contest to see who could break the most rules the fastest.
JGabriel @ 206
Probably a magic number (a thousand dozen dozen), but it doesn’t matter. The whole rapture bullshit is only loosely based on Revelations (there’s no mention of Rapture in Revelations). It’s the concoction of a fellow named Darby, who then passed it on to this country, and it was amplified and expanded upon by a preacher in the country by the name of Scofield, who printed up bibles in his own bible school with his marginal notes in them about the Rapture. Now all the hayseeds think it’s in the Bible, so it must be true….
Montag – thanks for pointing to the IAEA report. They reported the efforts as a “milestone” but of course, we don’t need to pay attention to that – as we ignored the inspectors in Iraq.
Richmond @ 208
Actually, no. I adopted it when thinking about Montag the fireman’s statement in Farenheit 451, after he becomes a radical reader….
I saw a crawl on the outdoor sign at a downtown radio station saying that the head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard (who had promised retaliation against American attacks) had been replaced.
Haven’t seen it anywhere else – but if true, it would seem that Iran is bending over backwards (allowing nuclear inspections, e.g.) to avoid giving the U.S. any viable excuse for an attack.
madmommy @ 209
Same neighborhood – my backyard neighbor was a preacher (no idea what sect / church, but they paid for his house and did his yardwork). Had to call the cops on him a couple times because of his pit bulls, which he refused to keep properly confined. Could’ve called the cops on some of his parties, but I’m not that kind of neighbor.
pow wow at 204
Agreed, and thanks for the info. This is indeed why impeachment is so very vital. The actions of this Administration have to be authoritatively repudiated.
Or the experiment can properly be called a failure.
Hugh-”the colonialist’s paradox”-beautiful phrase.
BigMitch @ 207
That makes no sense to me, frankly. Isr*el has never been shy about making its interests known before. And the propaganda garbage that groups like The Isr*el Project are putting out emphasize something quite different. See linky below.
http://www.theisraelproject.or…..ss_Kit.htm
madmommy @ 178
I don’t think it’s possible, madmommy. Unless it really got down to people starving to death or dying of a disease slowly and painfully. I think that would be a different reality for people who wish to be “raptured”. Sick as the suicide bombings, right here in river city…
jayt @ 213
If I remember correctly, that didn’t work for Saddam either.
madmommy @ 209
Have you heard Dar Williams’ song “Teen for God”? http://youtube.com/watch?v=-2oUQBnTiQk
… about fundie teens and what happens to them in college…
Siun @ 168
He is looking impressive. I have to say though, given the current mess the country is in, and the thousand ways in which it is likely to get worse, why anyone in their right mind would want the job.
Laura Doty @ 94
One response only! So–dull question? Or….?
I was asked not to return (bizarre story).
Well, *I’m* a big fan of bizarre college stories…
Laura Doty @ 221
I’d do something.
If Bush orders a war of aggression that Congress has not authorized, and is therefore illegal, what kind of dilemma does that place the military in? How are they going to resolve that? Or are there only Bush loyalists left in the top ranks?
Laura Doty @ 221
I said this morning that if we bomb Iran, I plan to be in D.C. very shortly thereafter. Hopefully along with a couple of million of my closest friends…
wangdangdoodle @ 218
The Iranians have been remarkably disciplined in refusing to be baited into an action the Americans can use as a pretext for war.
Fern @ 224
He won’t call it a war.. that’s the problem. Responding to a clear a present danger. Police action. Enforcement of international sanctions. whatever. He doesn’t care, and is perfectly happy to have the lawyers clean up his mess after he’s out of office.
Fern @ 224
If the Dems do not put in place some anti-Iran bombing language, then they will also be at fault in this mess.
Laura Doty @ 221
Sorry, my Rep would have to deal with my sorry ass…!!!
Looseheadprop is upstairs. G’nite everyone!
(Thank you, JayT, Jonathan, CT and Bonkers!)
FYI, Late nite is up.
Laura … it’s a very good question. I wonder also what we can do before …
LHP in da house!
Fern @ 224
Nuremberg established that an officer is duty-bound to refuse an illegal order. A whole lot of Nazis who were “just following orders” were hung for not doing so.
War? Illegal? If Bush can produce something tying Iran to the insurgency in Iraq, he’s got all the fig-leaf of justification he would need..and I don’t think the War Powers Act kicks in for 60 days…and I think Bush wouldn’t hesitate to disregard the War Powers Act anyway, as an infringement upon the powers of the Unitary Executive.
It should be illegal.
jayt @ 222
OK-Lots of nitpicky rules at this school, one of which was if you were spending the night off-campus you had to sign out, listing where you were going, phone numbers, addresses, etc. Several of us decided to go to a club, I had signed out to a friends house. About 3 am we decided to call it a night, but instead of going to the friends house we decided it would be a good idea to go back to campus, park in a far lot and sleep in the car until the dorms opened in the morning. Did I mention alcohol was involved? So, we fell asleep and all would have been well except my friend had her foot on the brake pedal. Security cop say it, woke us up and let us into her dorm. On monday at chapel(mandatory attendance) I had a note on my seat to meet with the dean of women. We went to the meeting and were told that we ahd been seen clubbing, and had been too dressed up when we left campus to be going to a friend’s house. We were put on probation, and the next semester I took 4 classes-passed one, failed 2 and got an incomplete on the third. I was asked not to return for the new semester. They never did find the refridgerator in my closet in my room that was full of booze.
Jonathan @ 223
Perhaps the lack of responses was due to our overwhelming dismay. I know I feel helpless. And Frightened. We’ve asked the question over and over. What can we do? I write and fax my reps. Nothing has changed. I’ve stood on street corners with others with candles and signs. No one in power cares. I’m stumped.
I didn’t have an anwer for you. I still don’t. Now I’m just really depressed.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 124
Hugh, as you known Iran,India and China
have the longest continuing histories of the nations extant in the world today. They know how to survive, it is not now apparent that we possess similar wisdom.
Laura Doty, yours is THE question that will determine if such wisdom may ever be ours.
I think a lot of us becoming overwhelmed and dismayed and look around for distractions. And I think that it gets hard to do things such as take to the streets, when it seems it doesn’t matter.
But I firmly believe it matters. And that it matters even if we don’t change a thing. It matters that we put all we have on the line, that we stand up for humanity.
Fern @ 226
I hope like hell that works, Fern. I really do. But it sure sounds like Bush is hell bent…
Thank you Laura. You are so right … and it is so hard to keep remembering that.
Siun @ 56
I found this site while searching the web for information on what the Iraqi people thought about all this. Something that has been sorely lacking all along. All the clips give good insight into the culture and what life is like in this nightmare. They usually have a new clip up at the beginning of the week.
If the Dems give Bush one dime more for his war, without matching penny of penny money to rebuild New Orleans & the Gulf Coast, I will work to make sure none of those Dems get voted back in office. How dare they betray desperate Americans and such a culturally rich city as it lies in ruins!
very epu here, but…
war is a political action.
the two remaining points of itervention are:
Congressional action (fat chance)
Joint Chiefs decision.
Right about now would be a great time for a mass education camapign for the JCS.
“Planning Iran War?
At Nuremberg, the war planners hung.”
Hugh @ 44
They either want to let the Executive control foreign policy or there is something else controlling their hand — what that might be is up for debate.
I wonder, if we had a law which allowed Congress to make any new law a secret, could you reveal the enabling law or is that secret too?
What if a secret law forced a president to execute a war he didn’t really want to do? Could he not execute the war or would Congress have to impeach him/her for violating a secret law?
bobschacht @ 114
Neither wants to end the war and take the blame for ‘losing’. Of course, if Congress votes to cut off funding it would have to be bi-partisan to avoid partisan blame. Bush won’t stop it by himself.
How do you get Congressional Repubs to cut of funding? I say you threaten something near and dear to their hearts…no, not patriotism, their jobs. Threaten to defeat them, to crush them, in the upcoming elections and they *might* go along.
Of course, there is that nasty Constitutional question of who actually *is* in charge. Is it Congress who can pass a law, over-ride a veto if necessary, and force the president to uphold it, whatever his views. Or, there is the idea that the president has complete charge over foreign policy. Which is correct and in use?
Siun @ 187
Common folk don’t know what is going on or why. They “believe” because they have been told to.
They are unable to know what is going on and they are told to be afraid and they have seen an example of being attacked ( 9/11 ), so they are naturally afraid and follow orders.
Their inability to be in charge and demand that politicians serve us, rather than the other way around would be contemptible if they were able, but not interested. But, these people are by and large not able to govern themselves (Jefferson would be ashamed of them) and really should be pitied.
Everywhere in America the middle-class and poor have been battered, kicked, pushed around and generally disenfranchised. They are showing some signs of the wear and tear. Seeking Salvation in that situation makes sense.
We have to fight doubly hard for Democracy — once for yourself and once for the downtrodden of spirit.
madmommy @ 178
You don’t. I have a dear sister who is the same and there is no cure for terminal Dog.
Gore was VP during the sanctions — this is supposed to be an indictment of him?
Senators Reid and Durbin may be the idiots you say they are. Or perhaps they actually believe they will be able to craft a policy that can get, say, 60 votes in the Senate. Bush / Cheney played hardball all the time and got tactical victories and strategic failure. Aping this model isn’t a good idea.
Hugh @ 107
And recall that the biggest fear in Kuwait was that the il fields might be set afire…and there was a major spill in the Gulf that halted shipping. Iran could do this with major effect…cutting off shipping in the Gulf for months.
Then there is the fact that millions of Shiites sit in the Southern Gulf emirates and Saudi Arabia. If the US attacks Iran it will destabilize the whole region. Iran could retaliate by fomenting the Shiite militias in Iraq to respond against the Americans…expect massive protests and civil unrest. There will be demands by SCIRI (Maliki’s main source of support) as well as Sadr that the US withdraw immediately from Iraq.
And Iran could also destabilize Afghanistan…which would further impact Pakistan. In addition, I wouldn’t expect Hezbollah to sit idly by while their religious ally was attacked.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 111
At the VERY LEAST Leahy should say no Hearings on the new Atty General until the WH is forthcoming on the subpoenas on the USAG firings…both on documents and the testimony of EX- AG Gonzalez!
GordonM @ 122
I heard that the B-2 technicians had fits when one of them was shot down over Yugoslavia during the Kosovo conflict. Apparently there ARE techniques of detection…the cloaking isn’t perfect.
madmommy @ 178
You tell them that in the Book of Daniel those that were mislead by the AntiChrist bring on Armageddon, but don’t get raptured, they suffer directly at the hands of Satan.
DrenchedOtter @ 188
And I recalled we bombed the stuffing out of Cambodia… and North Vietnam. That didn’t change very much despite the fact that it was a hell of a lot smaller “border” along the Ho Chi Minh trail and across the DMZ. Irans got one of the longest borders in Asia and religiously allied peoples in the Gulf Emirates that outnumber the “citizens”. Japan and Germany had relatively few potential “sympathisers” behind the Allied lines when we bombed their cities during WW2.
Expect massive riots in every country from Saudi Arabia to Pakistan…and those who are opposed to the Ahmadjinidad regime will still be absolutely opposed to this attack. That will be felt in Europe and even in the US.
Cambodia got Pol Pot as a result of the bombing…while we increasingly lost the strategic component of the war.
JGabriel @ 206
Actually it’s 144,000 Adult VIRGIN Male Jewish CONVERTS!
Good luck finding THOSE!
My thinking was that Revelations was saying…”You really thing that there is going to be an Apocalypse? When PIGS FLY!”