zed?

Christy!!

zip?

Congrats Gnomist!

Yes! I got a 200 last night. (akmost) I have just returned from watching the Larry Craig video Trex posted last night. Now to read. Good morning all.

Morning everyone…

Good Morning Christy!

I’m dialing!

I’m writing a letter to Senator Leahy right now. Cripes, I forget to mention Iraq. I’m asking him to do whatever he can to stop chimp from entering into war with Iran; and to continue investigating the DOJ; and talking about the erosion of the Constitution, and I freaking forget this horrendous miserable war.

Thanks for your reminders Christy, to get up from the keyboard and do something constructive with our outrage.

From the NYT’s: Hypocrisy Republican Style

Disowning Senator Craig

Published: August 31, 2007

The Republican Party is in quite a rush to keelhaul Senator Larry Craig for his run-in with the vice squad in an airport men’s room. Disclosure of the senator’s guilty plea to disorderly conduct set off a frenzy to demand an investigation by the Senate’s somnolent Ethics Committee and to strip Mr. Craig of his committee seniority. Some of the senator’s peers simply demanded that he resign.

No similar leadership chorus for judgment has been heard about any number of other scandalous revelations on the party’s plate.

There’s the F.B.I.’s inquiry into whether Senator Ted Stevens swung a quid-pro-quo deal for a government contractor who eventually renovated his Alaska home. There’s also Senator David Vitter’s presence on the client list of a Washington brothel. Mr. Vitter, a social conservative, pleaded guilty to “sin” (heterosexual) and no leadership call ensued for a thorough in-house ethics inquiry. Certainly, no Republican called for the resignation of Mr. Vitter, who comes from Louisiana, which has a Democratic governor who would then replace him. Mr. Craig is from a safe state with a Republican governor.

…

Scarecrow’s post scares the the crow out of me. Impeachment now more that ever for Cheney. But that is too slow. These guys want to play with their big toys and leave Iraq to the little people to clean up (although in their view things are going very nicely, no clean up needed.)

This is an example of how the Dems visiting Iraq are “framed” by internal propaganda when they visit:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..bios-iraq/

NYT’s editorial: More Realism, Less Spin

…

The White House tried to discredit the ominous G.A.O. assessment by saying the standards set by Congressional investigators were too high. It may be unrealistic to expect that Iraq’s weak and dysfunctional government could meet all the targets by September, but a serious, conscientious effort across the board was needed, and would be apparent to all.

Mr. Bush has invoked Vietnam to argue against leaving Iraq. That argument is specious, but there is a chilling similarity between the two American foreign policy disasters. In Vietnam, as in Iraq, American presidents and military leaders went to great lengths to pretend that victory was at hand when nothing could be farther from the truth.

“I’m not gay and I don’t do these kinds of things.”

–Larry Craig to the police officer who arrested him for soliciting sex in a public men’s room at the Mpls-St.Paul airport.

Getting my postcards together!

LS @ 11

This is an example of how the Dems visiting Iraq are “framed” by internal propaganda when they visit:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..bios-iraq/

that is beyond belief!

LS @ 11

This is an example of how the Dems visiting Iraq are “framed” by internal propaganda when they visit:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..bios-iraq/

Like I’ve said. Koolaid in the water over in the green zone. Yeurgh…

Just made my call — to Chris Murphy’s office.

Mildly rewarding.

Got the message that Murphy’s hearing a whole bunch of anti-Iraq-war sentiment.

Also got the message that congress is locked into a certain series of steps re Iraq, the next steps in the series being the WH report and Petraeus’s testimony.

Demand better. Be better.

It’s coming up on a year since the mandate at the polls was registered loud and clear. That was the key event to spur Congress into action in behalf of the people. And yet, there’s nothing to show for it after all this time. It’s only getting worse and Congress is doing everything in it’s power to prevent it from getting better.

Honest to bejeebus…

What we need is a
[MOD: edited to remove reference to violence. Let’s stick to ideas, shall we?]
to capture
the attention of America which has feel
into a deep dark depression.

I honestly believe that Bush and Cheney are
demented and could pull the trigger

Jonathan @ 17

Just made my call — to Chris Murphy’s office.

Mildly rewarding.

Got the message that Murphy’s hearing a whole bunch of anti-Iraq-war sentiment.

Also got the message that congress is locked into a certain series of steps re Iraq, the next steps in the series being the WH report and Petraeus’s testimony.

I wish Juan Cole would testify.

There’s somebody you can trust, unlike some people I know.

Michael O’Hanlon,. from the Department of Very Serious People, now on CNN, saying – oh hell, who cares?

(ok, he says that the GAO Report is crap, and hopefully that it won’t be taken too seriously and will be “corrected”).

Your long time Italian lurker here: it scared the hell out of me to see nearly my own frightened thoughts written down so eloquently in the first two post here today at the Lake (this one by Christy and the previous one by Scarecrow).

The signs are there for everybody to see: the road is paved, the people in your halls of power seems to be hell-bent on taking us all to the final Armageddon (because starting a war in Iran would be wrecking havoc not only in the middle east but to all the western world, Europe and USA included). But, to my amazement only few and isolated voices seem to be able to grasp the reach and consequences that such war would have: to me, over here in Italy, those voices seem to belong only to blogs like this one here or like the wonderful Greenwald blog, so outside the traditional media. How can it be that the whole press is so firmly under grasp of the government that not a single major reporter, a single major editor seems to be able to strongly voice his/her concern, his/her indignation for the slow destruction of your country once proud (if sometime not so truful, but that a different story) standing by the idea of freedom and democracy, so that such outcry can be heard at an international level. Belive me there is no sign on the international media of any real opposition in the USA to what is happening and seems to be pose to happen in the Middle East in the coming months.

It really leave speechless that there seems not to be a clear movement among your intellectual class to oppose this warmonger mentality: even here in Italy with our terrible press, nearly completely in the hands of our right wingers (like Berlusconi) or in France (where a soft bigot like Sarkoszy was able to win the elections) such extreme position would be eviscerated and any politician calmly calling for the use of atomic bombs would be committing a career suicide. Do not get me wrong, I well see how the devastating backlash of 9/11 could, unfortunately, be used for initially justify such folly as the one we have seen be carried out by the republicans… but today with all the signs of the carnage (there are hundreds of people dying in Iraq everyday for ***ist sake !) is even 9/11 enough not to be ashamed for the blood spilled and the hate generated ? Europe, one could say, never faced anything like that (but we had London and Madrid)… still I really cannot believe that there is not a general outcry in the public opinion for what happened in Faluja, in Badgad and what is still happening today…

From outside the behaviour of the USA government is nowadays so astonishingly out of control that one cannot but wish 2009 were already here and some kind of change would happen in the Washington. But then with every passing day the train wreck comes nearer and nearer and it is scary to see the people that are supposed to be the sane ones, the Democrats, just sat there mildly interested mumbling about “looking tough” and “supporting the troops” with a foolish smile on their faces.

You have no idea how good is to hear and read your voices and the voices of all the great progressive blogs I have found over this last two years: your presence is the only light I can see in the black pitch future of your society and with that of the whole western society, the only hope I can see everything will not come crashing down on our head…

Cheers firepups, you all are a treasure…

Jonathan @ 17

Just made my call — to Chris Murphy’s office.

Mildly rewarding.

Got the message that Murphy’s hearing a whole bunch of anti-Iraq-war sentiment.

Also got the message that congress is locked into a certain series of steps re Iraq, the next steps in the series being the WH report and Petraeus’s testimony.

the bad news is the petrea report will not be even handed or realistic at all, it will not site the rise in violence because of the surge and it will say the surge is a success

I updated with this link above, but I want to be certain that everyone sees this from Howie.

I will be very interested to see if Rove’s absence (last day is today) will result in splintering of the herd in coming weeks.

Some have taken as one explanation for Rove’s resignation the thought that Cheney’s camp has won the policy debate on Iran. If there were ever a time when Congress could win the policy debate over Cheney, now with Rove’s cattle prod gone, the opportunity could be now.

here’s a former bush aid which I gleamed from raw story

Former Reagan aide: ‘Brownshirt’ Bush among top ‘mass murderers of all time’ Nick Juliano
Published: Friday August 31, 2007

Print This Email This

President Bush’s apparent plans for a preemptive nuclear strike on Iran will only add to the civilian death toll as a result of US intervention that has placed the president “high on the list of mass murders of all time,” a former aide in President Ronald Reagan’s administration known for strident anti-Bush rhetoric said Friday.

“Bush is too self-righteous to see the dark humor in his denunciations of Iran for threatening ‘the security of nations everywhere’ and of the Iraqi resistance for ‘a vision that rejects tolerance, crushes all dissent, and justifies the murder of innocent men, women, and children in the pursuit of political power,’” writes Paul Craig Roberts, a former assistant secretary of the Treasury. “Those are precisely the words that most of the world applies to Bush and his Brownshirt administration.”

Roberts, who has emerged as a fierce critic of Bush’s war policies, accused the president of ignoring habeas corpus and the Geneva Conventions, justifying torture and demonizing critics as anti-American.

“Bush … is responsible, according to Information Clearing House, for over one million deaths of Iraqi civilians, which puts Bush high on the list of mass murderers of all time,” Roberts writes in a column published Friday on antiwar.com. “The vast majority of ‘kills’ by the US military in Iraq and Afghanistan are civilians.”

perris @ 23

Jonathan @ 17

Just made my call — to Chris Murphy’s office.

Mildly rewarding.

Got the message that Murphy’s hearing a whole bunch of anti-Iraq-war sentiment.

Also got the message that congress is locked into a certain series of steps re Iraq, the next steps in the series being the WH report and Petraeus’s testimony.

the bad news is the petrea report will not be even handed or realistic at all, it will not site the rise in violence because of the surge and it will say the surge is a success

from the australian;

Dennis Shanahan, in Baghdad | August 31, 2007
THE US troop surge in Iraq has thrown al-Qa’ida off balance and produced a dramatic reduction in sectarian killings and a drop in roadside bombings.

David Petraeus, the top US commander in Iraq, said the build-up of American forces in Baghdad since late January had produced positive outcomes. These included the killing or capture of al-Qa’ida fighters, causing the terrorist group to lose influence with local Sunnis.

Kimba @ 23 – How eloquently put. And how true. Many of us feel exactly as you do, obviously, and that is why we gather at the lake.

Biodun @ 13

“I’m not gay and I don’t do these kinds of things.”

–Larry Craig to the police officer who arrested him for soliciting sex in a public men’s room at the Mpls-St.Paul airport.

Of course he’s not gay!! He just found it so much harder to cruise the ladies’ room, that he settled for the men’s room.

If you are interested in what we could have done for the world had the moneys spent so far in Iraq been used for humanitarian purposes, go here:http:www.stwr.net/component/option,com_costofwar/Itemid,165/

Good morning Christy et al -

Just got kicked off Firefox so I’m starting all over.

You can get the three Democrats’ report on http://www.c-span.org. It is listed under Recent Programs video (House Democrats Press Conference on Returning from Iraq).

I’m on my way to Nevada this morning and will contact Senator Reid, again, urging him to bring our troops home and to close all US military bases in Iraq. Also, do not support counterintelligence in Iraq which I understand he is supporting.Wherever we have counterintelligence you can count on chaos and interference in people’s self-determination.

Gnome de Plume @ 29

Kimba @ 23 – How eloquently put. And how true. Many of us feel exactly as you do, obviously, and that is why we gather at the lake.

gnome of plumeage, I believe the vast majority of Americans feel this way as well, we are just the lucky few who have found this venue

these neo cons in office really are fascists in every sense of the word, we are reliving history

You want the war to stop, start people talking publicly about the Neocon manifesto, namely unconditional
support for Israel. Get them talking about how Israel was the principle factor in the Iraq war, and in the
coming war with Iran.

There are some talking points floating currently about how Israel was saying “No, no, no, Iran, not Iraq”,
at the start of the Iraq war, but they are misleading.

Anyone following the PNAC playbook was pretty well aware that Iraq, THEN Iran was the plan.

The NeoCons will scream to high heaven if the story starts hitting the airwaves about Israel’s role.

They’ll fall back to ‘It was Big Oil’ not Israel that motivated this’, but that will also be a lie.

A leaked [PDF] Israeli Communication Priorities Document from 2003 shows a clear emphasis on shaping the
media message in the U.S. linking Saddam and the War on Terror. It’s pretty clear that message control
in the U.S. is a major foreign policy issue for Israel, and this document demonstrates the confident facility
with which that ‘message shaping’ occurs.

Broadcast some John Hagee CUFI specials in the primetime news slots on top of this, for extra contrast.

Calling congress-critters, forget it, they are too afraid of speaking out.

Washington has a lot in common with Palestine.

CHS:

I expect you’ve seen this breast-feeding/formula story already, but if you haven’t it will provoke a special kind of outrage in you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews

fionnbarr @ 34

You want the war to stop, start people talking publicly about the Neocon manifesto, namely unconditional
support for Israel. Get them talking about how Israel was the principle factor in the Iraq war, and in the
coming war with Iran..

that is one request that might be impossible…there are too many people that believe anything said against israel is anti semetic

my father and my relatives among them I might add

Oh good lord, Harold Ford is trying to unseat Cohen of TN. Is there any way we can turn up the notch on that one? Cohen has been amazing,and memorable on Conyers committee etc.

fionnbarr at 34 — I call bullshit on the calls not making a difference. If you aren’t making phone calls, contacting your reps or doing anything along those lines, then you are ceding the ground to the people who are making calls — wingnuts, lobbyists and corporate interests in keeping the war going.

Imagine, if you will, if every person in America who was fed up got on the phone, showed up in person, sent mail or faxes. That’s pretty powerful. And then think about how powerful you are sitting on your ass and doing nothing. No thank you to the latter.

brendan — oh yeah, I saw it. Appalling.

selise:

See this quote in the Howie link:

Yesterday I was on the phone for a while with a campaign manager for a Democrat running for a House seat. He was speaking for himself and not his candidate. He told me that the problem in Iraq is very real and the dangers inherent to it are very grave and that the solution is not a soundbyte.

This is what I am talking about. This is the Washington Consensus that we have to expose. They have to realize that they themselves are engaging in soundbytes rather than policy discussion because they are afraid to state their positions.

When I say the Serious People influence the staffers, and the staffers influence the candidates this is what I mean. It’s absolutely pervasive, IMO. What is happening is not chickenshit Democrats who want to end the occupation afraid to face the republicans.

What is happening is that Democrats who are part of the Washington Consensus are afraid to face their constituents and tell them what they really think–that indefinite occupation is the only reasonable prospect.

As I’ve said before, and as Howie says here, that policy has made things worse, mot better. But if they will not state their position outright, then we will never be able to rebut–or run insurgents in primaries.

This is the key. The Democrats are largely part of the Washington Consensus. We have to flush them out, and not let them hem and haw, and mumble, the way McNerney did.

The place to start, imo, is the supplemental. That bill has to originate in the house. It has to pass with a simple majority. It can be stopped.

Gnome de Plume @ 29

Kimba @ 23 – How eloquently put. And how true. Many of us feel exactly as you do, obviously, and that is why we gather at the lake.

Ditto that!

Hello Kimba! I was looking for this link of September political actions and there’s one for Italy there, too.

September Showdown:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/26315

Audrey @ 42

Gnome de Plume @ 29

Kimba @ 23 – How eloquently put. And how true. Many of us feel exactly as you do, obviously, and that is why we gather at the lake.

Ditto that!

Hello Kimba! I was looking for this link of September political actions and there’s one for Italy there, too.

September Showdown:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/26315

and there’s this mentioned:

Sept. 6: Call Congress! This one is for everybody. Call your representative and your two senators at 202-224-3121. Tell them: I want you to act now to end the war and occupation of Iraq. The Congress has the Constitutional right and a moral responsibility to use the power of the purse to withdraw all U.S. soldiers and contractors from Iraq on a rapid and binding schedule. Four and a half years of this war is too long – it has to end now!

But we know it’s Call Congress everyday.

fionnbarr @ 34

You want the war to stop, start people talking publicly about the Neocon manifesto, namely unconditional
support for Israel. Get them talking about how Israel was the principle factor in the Iraq war, and in the
coming war with Iran.

There are some talking points floating currently about how Israel was saying “No, no, no, Iran, not Iraq”,
at the start of the Iraq war, but they are misleading.

Anyone following the PNAC playbook was pretty well aware that Iraq, THEN Iran was the plan.

The NeoCons will scream to high heaven if the story starts hitting the airwaves about Israel’s role.

They’ll fall back to ‘It was Big Oil’ not Israel that motivated this’, but that will also be a lie.

A leaked [PDF] Israeli Communication Priorities Document from 2003 shows a clear emphasis on shaping the
media message in the U.S. linking Saddam and the War on Terror. It’s pretty clear that message control
in the U.S. is a major foreign policy issue for Israel, and this document demonstrates the confident facility
with which that ‘message shaping’ occurs.

Broadcast some John Hagee CUFI specials in the primetime news slots on top of this, for extra contrast.

Calling congress-critters, forget it, they are too afraid of speaking out.

Washington has a lot in common with Palestine.

I wish I didn’t have to agree with you but I’m afraid that would be avoiding reality. I, like so many others, hesitate because so quickly it turns into hating Jews. People just love to find something to go after and pin all problems on.

So many people in Israel have no voice. They are active in peace movements there. They too are called traders. Much the way anyone who opposes the Bush/Cheney doctrines are declared as unAmerican and aiding the terrorists.

I would love for this site to have a discussion on the NeoConservatives. The whole country needs one. My deep concern is how quickly it will go into “jew hating” instead of seeing a group of ideologues who have latched on to a cult belief that is self destructive.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 38

fionnbarr at 34 — I call bullshit on the calls not making a difference. If you aren’t making phone calls, contacting your reps or doing anything along those lines, then you are ceding the ground to the people who are making calls — wingnuts, lobbyists and corporate interests in keeping the war going.

Imagine, if you will, if every person in America who was fed up got on the phone, showed up in person, sent mail or faxes. That’s pretty powerful. And then think about how powerful you are sitting on your ass and doing nothing. No thank you to the latter.

Yeppers.

One of things that was so striking about the CtG event for me, anyway, was getting into elevators that were invariably full of lobbyists. It’s a grind, but we have to do it.

jayackroyd @ 41

This is the key. The Democrats are largely part of the Washington Consensus. We have to flush them out, and not let them hem and haw, and mumble, the way McNerney did.

This is where you lose me. I don’t see how flushing the Democrats out solves anything, as the Repubs are still there. This particular argument which I’ve seen several places, eludes me. Yes, we have DINO’s, but doesn’t it make as much or more sense to flush out as many Repubs as we can, then go to work on DINO’s? Otherwise the Democrats are left with a more solidified opposition if the DINO’s are taken out (and potentially/probably replaced with Repubs).

I think part of my assumpion is that if Democrats were more in the majority, the DINO’s would wind up following them, whereas even moderate Repubs probably wouldn’t. Perhaps that assumption is faulty or at least not shared?

Thanks–

Let me guess 50 Billion for Blackwater, Halliburton & CO. Zero for simple equipment for troops.

50 billion dollars.

Let’s just call it seed money for the Iranian Shock and Awe Show.

The nation has turned into the Fifth Reich before our eyes.

-GSD

Can someone tell me the names and numbers of the bills/amendments we’re addressing so this person (not completely recovered from hayfever turned toxic) can write/fax/call?

Kimba1970,

It’s nice to hear from an Italian. I can understand your fears, being so close to this terrible war. You bring up an excellent point. Just because the American media is largly not informing the American people, where is the international pressure on our President and VP? If all of the EU took a united position and really spoke loudly and clearly, perhaps this would help. We are doing our best here is left blogistan.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 38

fionnbarr at 34 — I call bullshit on the calls not making a difference. If you aren’t making phone calls, contacting your reps or doing anything along those lines, then you are ceding the ground to the people who are making calls — wingnuts, lobbyists and corporate interests in keeping the war going.

Imagine, if you will, if every person in America who was fed up got on the phone, showed up in person, sent mail or faxes. That’s pretty powerful. And then think about how powerful you are sitting on your ass and doing nothing. No thank you to the latter.

Thank you. This is the same meme that Nadirists (misspelling intended) spread: there is no difference. How f****g oblivious can people be? I thought Bush/Cheney changed everything. I guess not. It reminds me of a graduate class discussion back in ‘92 where this very intelligent, but smug, student said that he wasn’t bothering to vote. “The difference between Clinton and Poppie Bush is like the difference between Vanilla and French Vanilla, he opined.” I have often reflected on that statement wrt the current situation. How different a Gore presidency would have been. There are still knee-jerk libertarians out there who believe the crap that our friend Jonathan espoused here yesterday about Nadir and Gore causing himself to lose.

peanutbutter @ 46

jayackroyd @ 41

This is the key. The Democrats are largely part of the Washington Consensus. We have to flush them out, and not let them hem and haw, and mumble, the way McNerney did.

This is where you lose me. I don’t see how flushing the Democrats out solves anything, as the Repubs are still there. This particular argument which I’ve seen several places, eludes me. Yes, we have DINO’s, but doesn’t it make as much or more sense to flush out as many Repubs as we can, then go to work on DINO’s? Otherwise the Democrats are left with a more solidified opposition if the DINO’s are taken out (and potentially/probably replaced with Repubs).

I think part of my assumpion is that if Democrats were more in the majority, the DINO’s would wind up following them, whereas even moderate Repubs probably wouldn’t. Perhaps that assumption is faulty or at least not shared?

Thanks–

These are not mutually exclusive approaches. In fact, most of my contacting DC has been using my families Maine address to write to Collins, Snowe and Maine Sunday Telegram LTEs.

There are two important reasons to flush out the DINOs. Their constituents need to know that they are not representing them. They need to fear a primary opponent. They need to discover that they are at much greater risk from an antiwar primary opponent by supporting the occupation than they are from a Republican in the general when they oppose the war. Kristen Gilbrandt is an example of this in NY. She needs hear from her constituents that she can only represent them by stopping this occupation. I know that she has been getting this message in some very heartfelt ways–and she may decide that it’s in her best interest to avoid a Marcy Winograd like scenario.

Second, every time a Baird says what the republicans say, they get cover. They need to be isolated. The republicans need to own this war, alone. It’s gonna be a heckuva a lot easier to peel them off if the Democratic caucus is standing firm. These accusations of partisanship go both ways–and to say that you are being a mindless partisan to support this disastrous administration strikes me as a strong statement.

I have to say I usually appreciate most of what I hear from Congressman Meeks on cspan but this little youtube is so full of right wing talking points that one can barely hear the man suggest we actually need to, you know, stop the madness.

I was wondering late last night about Kimba1970, our Italian friend.. Good to see he/she is still with us.. Hello Kimba. *s*

For those among us who are not on MoveOn email lists.. they are pushing back against the 15 million dollar More War ad campaign.. A snip of an email below.. Please consider helping out.

Dear MoveOn member,

The response to yesterday’s email—asking folks to fight back against the deceptive White House ad campaign on Iraq—has been absolutely amazing. In less than 24 hours, more than 6,000 MoveOn members have chipped in a total of $265,000.

It’s one of the biggest outpourings of support we’ve seen all year—so we’re aiming for a new goal of $350,000 by the end of this weekend. Every additional dollar will help make sure that the ads linking al Qaeda and Iraq are contested. Can you chip in $25 to get us there?

https://pol.moveon.org/donate/15mil.html?id=11139-7633057-id_7zL&t=1

It’s true that we don’t have $15 million to saturate the airwaves, but we have two things that are more powerful: 3.3 million of us, and the facts. With your help, we’ll make sure the public knows the truth.

Thanks for all you do.

Time to make some phone calls…

From the ThinkProgress link in Christy’s post above:

Gates’ admission of being out of the loop on the [$50 billion] funding request coincides with a report by McClatchy that military brass are trying to “distance themselves” from the President on Iraq strategy.

Maybe the generals will be more effective than Congress in stopping this war.

Elliott @ 42

Audrey @ 42

But we know it’s Call Congress everyday.

True! But making it an event will get some who’ve never done it and that works for me. :)

perris – re your quote from a Shanahan article in The Australian – this is a notoriously right wing newspaper but the only national one here. Shanahan et al are not having any traction with shaping public opinion here which is very anti Bush but not necessarily anti American and we all expect to be out of Iraq by the end of this year. Remember reading Sy Hersh a couple of years ago re advanced war plans for Iran and he was very definitive about these being focused on aerial nuclear bombardment. Hersh’s reporting has always been spot on ever since My Lai.

It might be really valuable to be able to view a breakdown the effects an attack on Iran would create; including the effects of those bunker busters. Something showing possible retaliation targets and the effects on the troops in Iraq. Also, the environmental problems following such a debacle. Something concrete and concise in order to make the scenario tangible and realistic, so that people feel really compelled to take action. Just a thought.

Audrey @ 55

Elliott @ 42

Audrey @ 42

But we know it’s Call Congress everyday.

True! But making it an event will get some who’ve never done it and that works for me. :)

Oh, so true!

Eureka Springs @ 52

I have to say I usually appreciate most of what I hear from Congressman Meeks on cspan but this little youtube is so full of right wing talking points that one can barely hear the man suggest we actually need to, you know, stop the madness.

I was wondering late last night about Kimba1970, our Italian friend.. Good to see he/she is still with us.. Hello Kimba. *s*

For those among us who are not on MoveOn email lists.. they are pushing back against the 15 million dollar More War ad campaign.. A snip of an email below.. Please consider helping out.

Dear MoveOn member,

The response to yesterday’s email—asking folks to fight back against the deceptive White House ad campaign on Iraq—has been absolutely amazing. In less than 24 hours, more than 6,000 MoveOn members have chipped in a total of $265,000.

It’s one of the biggest outpourings of support we’ve seen all year—so we’re aiming for a new goal of $350,000 by the end of this weekend. Every additional dollar will help make sure that the ads linking al Qaeda and Iraq are contested. Can you chip in $25 to get us there?

https://pol.moveon.org/donate/15mil.html?id=11139-7633057-id_7zL&t=1

It’s true that we don’t have $15 million to saturate the airwaves, but we have two things that are more powerful: 3.3 million of us, and the facts. With your help, we’ll make sure the public knows the truth.

Thanks for all you do.

Time to make some phone calls…

Hmm I’ve been gettings stuff like this

Kevein Zeese:
August 30, 2007

*Welcome Back Congress *
*National Call-In Day*
*Thursday, September 6, 2007

*Capitol Hill Switchboard: 202-224-3121*

Dear Peace Stalwarts,

Join the nationwide effort next Thursday, September 6th, to flood the offices of our members of Congress with calls demanding an end to the U.S. war in Iraq.

Let’s make it clear: there cannot be “business as usual” in Washington until effective action to bring all the troops home is taken!

Call your Representative and both Senators on Thursday, September 6th.

Tell them: “I want you to act now to end the war and occupation of Iraq.

The Congress has the Constitutional right and a moral responsibility to use the power of the purse to withdraw all U.S. soldiers and contractors from Iraq on a responsibile and binding schedule.”

Four and a half years of this war is too long – it has to end now!

Not sure who represents you in Congress?

Look Here.

OT, but ever so important:

Krugman on Katrina et al
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/083107M.shtml

Forgive me for indulging myself and talking about something that’s of interest mostly to me, but kimba1970’s eloquent comments, and references to European politics @23 make it at least tangentially relevant: there is a tendancy towards authoritarianism at all times, everywhere.

There is something going on Poland right now that parallels the crimes at DOJ, but is more dramatic. That unhappy country is currently ruled by a coalition of paranoiacs who could arguably be called neofascists, and who are trying to create a one-party state. Today some former members of the government were supposed to testify in parliament about how their equivalent of the AG bugged political opponents (and allies). The solution? They were arrested yesterday for “leaks”.

The outrage was immediate and general. Journalists and politicians immediately used phrases such as “coup d’etat”, “police state” and “banana republic” to describe it. Lech Walesa, who knows whereof he speaks, said that the prime minister would sooner declare martial law than relinquish power.

The situation is bad, but in one important respect their better off than we are here: they have a parliamentary system, and will likely be swept from power expeditiously, in October, unless the current government fully uses the police state powers it has been aggrandizing. Here is an English translation of publisher (and former dissident) Adam Michnik’s commentary: http://www.gazetawyborcza.pl/1,82049,4448912.html

I think I’m going to join in the Welcome Back congress call in. Hehhe. Call-ins are fun.

Have emailed all of my guys about this horror.

forgive my lack of editing in last paragraph

QuakerGirl @ 43

fionnbarr @ 34

You want the war to stop, start people talking publicly about the Neocon manifesto, namely unconditional
support for Israel. Get them talking about how Israel was the principle factor in the Iraq war, and in the
coming war with Iran.

There are some talking points floating currently about how Israel was saying “No, no, no, Iran, not Iraq”,
at the start of the Iraq war, but they are misleading.

Anyone following the PNAC playbook was pretty well aware that Iraq, THEN Iran was the plan.

The NeoCons will scream to high heaven if the story starts hitting the airwaves about Israel’s role.

They’ll fall back to ‘It was Big Oil’ not Israel that motivated this’, but that will also be a lie.

A leaked [PDF] Israeli Communication Priorities Document from 2003 shows a clear emphasis on shaping the
media message in the U.S. linking Saddam and the War on Terror. It’s pretty clear that message control
in the U.S. is a major foreign policy issue for Israel, and this document demonstrates the confident facility
with which that ‘message shaping’ occurs.

Broadcast some John Hagee CUFI specials in the primetime news slots on top of this, for extra contrast.

Calling congress-critters, forget it, they are too afraid of speaking out.

Washington has a lot in common with Palestine.

I wish I didn’t have to agree with you but I’m afraid that would be avoiding reality. I, like so many others, hesitate because so quickly it turns into hating Jews. People just love to find something to go after and pin all problems on.

So many people in Israel have no voice. They are active in peace movements there. They too are called traders. Much the way anyone who opposes the Bush/Cheney doctrines are declared as unAmerican and aiding the terrorists.

I would love for this site to have a discussion on the NeoConservatives. The whole country needs one. My deep concern is how quickly it will go into “jew hating” instead of seeing a group of ideologues who have latched on to a cult belief that is self destructive.

That was kind of my point, is that discussion needs to be had.

I don’t think it can happen however, without a strong Jewish voice leading the way, otherwise it will too easily resort to name calling. That name calling only serves to silence discussion.

By all means, jam the phone lines, storm the ramparts of bureaucracy, but that discussion is the message that needs to be volleyed.

Especially to put an end to these wars.

Gnome de Plume @ 50

Christy Hardin Smith @ 38
Thank you. This is the same meme that Nadirists (misspelling intended) spread: there is no difference. How f****g oblivious can people be? I thought Bush/Cheney changed everything. I guess not. It reminds me of a graduate class discussion back in ‘92 where this very intelligent, but smug, student said that he wasn’t bothering to vote. “The difference between Clinton and Poppie Bush is like the difference between Vanilla and French Vanilla, he opined.” I have often reflected on that statement wrt the current situation. How different a Gore presidency would have been. There are still knee-jerk libertarians out there who believe the crap that our friend Jonathan espoused here yesterday about Nadir and Gore causing himself to lose.

Love the misspelling. :)

Also love it when the wingers say “I suppose you think Gore would have done a better job in Iraq.”

Makes me go, ummm….hello?

Chris Dodd is doing a labor day thing for anyone who wants to join. Might be a good time to ask the Senator some questions. Or maybe not, if he’s campaigning.

On Labor Day, September 3rd, we are traveling up to New Hampshire to carry our momentum to the Granite State.

Please join Senator Dodd as we march in the Milford, NH Labor Day parade.

After marching we will have a Labor Day BBQ with Senator Dodd before heading back to CT.

Space on the bus is limited so please sign up right away!!

(click here to sign up)

(click here to forward to friends)

We will be leaving North Haven from the commuter lot off Route 40, Devine Street, at 7:30am. Exit 10 off I-91 North. Take a left off the exit and the lot is on your left.

From Manchester we will be leaving from the Spencer Street commuter lot at 8:30am. From I-84 east take the I-384 exit. Take exit 1 Spencer Street off I-384. Take a left off the exit. At the first light, take a left and the lot is on the left.

If you have any questions or need more information please call us at 860-244-2008.

I look forward to seeing everyone on the bus!

Regards,

Chuck Swirsky

I must check out and wing my way up to Nevada. It’s a beautiful drive through the mountains for most of the trip. I can use the inspiration.

I’ll be in contact with my activists Democrats while there. They are working very hard and putting in some serious hours. They’ve lost over and over and still they come out determine to make progress this time, again. I love their attitude. Inch by inch.

It is worth noting that the $50 billion request is in addition to a $200 billion request that was already on the table.

Actually, $147 billion was on the table. But I agree we should be talking about $200 billion, not $50 billion.

Mimir at 68 — Oooops — my error. Misread my notes and took the total and not the break-out. Will fix that above — thanks much for noting it.

From NYTimes editorial today:

The White House also let it be known that it plans to ask Congress for more money — perhaps another $50 billion — beyond $600 billion already requested to maintain the counteroffensive in Iraq into spring 2008. Some people think the administration will get it.

My bold. I’ve made a few calls. Let’s hope the administration doesn’t get that $50 billion. Is Bush planning to increase the $2 billion a week that this war is already costing?

Attack Iran Scenarios – not for the faint-hearted:

http://stopthewarnow.net/iran/warscenarios.html

fionnbar, Quaker Girl:

Your comments are somewhat insulting and have an air of hysterical grievance about them. There is frank and usually pretty vehement discussion on the subject almost every day here, even when it’s not germane to the topic of the thread (Indeed, the Israeli dimension of neoconservatism is a bit of hobby horse with me). You’re fighting shadows and straw men in your comments. I’ve never seen the charge of “anti-Semite” leveled here, or the much worse counterpart, Jew-hating or Jew-baiting. Look around and you will find civil interlocutors on both sides of this debate here and at other sites.

brendan @ 71

fionnbar, Quaker Girl:

Your comments are somewhat insulting and have an air of hysterical grievance about them. There is frank and usually pretty vehement discussion on the subject almost every day here, even when it’s not germane to the topic of the thread (Indeed, the Israeli dimension of neoconservatism is a bit of hobby horse with me). You’re fighting shadows and straw men in your comments. I’ve never seen the charge of “anti-Semite” leveled here, or the much worse counterpart, Jew-hating or Jew-baiting. Look around and you will find civil interlocutors on both sides of this debate here and at other sites.

Hmmm, the way I read QuakerGirl’s comments was that if these issues are raised publicly at large (not just here on the lake), that is be the problem we’d run into. And I’d have to agree, there’s some pretty strong reflexive “Anti-semite!” that comes up with criticism of Israel. But I’ve never seen that here, like you say. On the contrary it’s one of the few places I’ve seen this discussed at all…

Christy –

Suggestion: Let’s feature peace groups in Israel. They receive no press here and are condemned there. They send representatives to meet with peace groups in America. They really need a place to be heard.

I think from this perspective we can have an intelligent uncharged discussion devoid of degrading attacks on race or religion.

OK. I really have to pull out of here now. I’ll catch up with FDL later.

If you live reasonably close to your senator or rep… this is how it’s done in their own front yard.

Anti War Protest Ends Up With 250 Protestors At Senator Mitch McConnell’s House, In Louisville, Kentucky Youtube Video.
http://www.hillbillyreport.com…..re-11.html

Loo Hoo. @ 49

Kimba1970,

It’s nice to hear from an Italian. I can understand your fears, being so close to this terrible war. You bring up an excellent point. Just because the American media is largly not informing the American people, where is the international pressure on our President and VP? If all of the EU took a united position and really spoke loudly and clearly, perhaps this would help. We are doing our best here is left blogistan.

Don’t look for any help from the world. They are a surly and weasely lot too.

Frances’ Sarkozy is a newly minted Tony Blair style French poodle who wants to be a big world player.

Japan’s Abe is looking forward to Japan’s old imperial days, he wants to return to a militaristic foreign policy and be a bulwark against China.

Russia’s Putin is an authoritarian who is in effect a Russian Bush. Though he has kept his bullying to his direct neighbors.

China, what can you say, they want money and power. Push comes to shove they’ll sit back and watch the US implode. If they have any internal problems they’ll roll tanks over unarmed protesters again in a heartbeat.

The UK is going to try to maintain a half-in, half-out approach. Can’t embrace or step to far away from Big Daddy USA, now that the Poodle is gone.

Australia has their own fear mongering twit of a neo-con leader.

Canada? Harper? He’s preparing to liberate the north pole from the rest of the world.

Poland is run by a pair of creepy twin wannabe fascists who want to be world players by hosting a US missile shield in order to stick it to the Russians.

Italy? Prodi? He’ll be gone by next Tuesday and then back on Friday.

The middle east? A sordid pack of sheikdoms, dictatorships and authortarians without vision or leadership that are all a plane crash away from a military coup d’etat.

Israel in on the threshold of bringing back the ultimate war monger Bibi Netanyahu. He needs to redeem the military for their first loss(Last summers Hezbollah war) since the creation of Israel…..that’ll bring all out war with Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas.

South America is creating their own sphere of influence and is willing to take what they can from the US and is also willing to tell us to screw. Good for them. Don’t expect them to help us or hurt us. Except for Hugo in Venezuela. He might use oil to put the screws to us if we keep pushing him around.

Africa is still a mess. They can’t even tell Zimbabwe’s Mugabe to go screw or deal with the Sudan/Darfur genocide in any serious way. Plus they are caught between a rise of Christian and Muslim fundamentalism from coast to coast.

The table is set for an unending tragedy of untold proportions.

-GSD

Christy:

Per NYTimes editorial in my 70, isn’t the figure already on the table $600 billion?

Kimba,

My sister lives in Firenze and is very depressed not only by the USA, but by Berlusconi (sd?) who wants back.

At least the Italians stage regular and well attend anti war rallies. ‘

Even if they do nothing… they at least demonstrate that people care.. even the ones who don’t call their congress critter.

MORE DIRECT ACTION NOW.

Gnome de Plume @ 29

Kimba @ 23 – How eloquently put. And how true. Many of us feel exactly as you do, obviously, and that is why we gather at the lake.

Eloquent ? Oh, boy I am officially blushing…
Jokes apart, I try to express my deep worries for the way our world is crumbling…

Thanks all of you for indulging in reading my rant and for sharing your insight everyday on this great blog…

On my way back home (17.30 work time over)…

Biodun at 77 — Not in immediately current requests for the upcoming legislative session — no.

The request for the $50 billion certainly didn’t come from a DOD request, since Gates was not informed. It must be for something else.

QuakerGirl @ 74

Christy –

Suggestion: Let’s feature peace groups in Israel. They receive no press here and are condemned there. They send representatives to meet with peace groups in America. They really need a place to be heard.

I think from this perspective we can have an intelligent uncharged discussion devoid of degrading attacks on race or religion.

OK. I really have to pull out of here now. I’ll catch up with FDL later.

Breaking the Silence.

From TPM:

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other senior intelligence officials should not be forced to testify about whether they discussed classified information with pro-Israel lobbyists, federal prosecutors argued in a closed-door court hearing Thursday.

Two former American Israel Public Affairs Committee lobbyists facing espionage charges have subpoenaed Rice, National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams and several others to testify at their trial next year. . . .

Attorneys for lobbyists Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman have argued that the Israeli interest group played an unofficial but sanctioned role in crafting foreign policy and that Rice and others can confirm it.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/052039.php

That last paragraph is a big “Rut-Roh.”

I was shaking with anger but polite when I called, and I don’t know how to deal with it. It permeates my body and lives in white hot rage. It just stuns me that no one, or a very few, elected officials have the balls to do what needs to be done. This is not a time for partisan politics, it is time to fight like hell for the preservation of our country, and an end to those who destroy our humanity..Thanks for letting me vent in public. now I can finish my coffee and drag my ass to work.

peanutbutter @73

Here is what Quaker Girl said @46, prompting my comment:

“I would love for this site to have a discussion on the NeoConservatives. The whole country needs one. My deep concern is how quickly it will go into “jew hating” instead of seeing a group of ideologues who have latched on to a cult belief that is self destructive.”

She has a very good suggestion @74, on the other hand.

brendan @ 72

fionnbar, Quaker Girl:

Your comments are somewhat insulting and have an air of hysterical grievance about them. There is frank and usually pretty vehement discussion on the subject almost every day here, even when it’s not germane to the topic of the thread (Indeed, the Israeli dimension of neoconservatism is a bit of hobby horse with me). You’re fighting shadows and straw men in your comments. I’ve never seen the charge of “anti-Semite” leveled here, or the much worse counterpart, Jew-hating or Jew-baiting. Look around and you will find civil interlocutors on both sides of this debate here and at other sites.

Sorry, brendan, but Quaker Girl was voicing a necessary caution that painting all of Israel as a problem could devolve.

We are dealing with hardliners, the L*kudnik faction of a small middle eastern country, a group that has had an excessive influence on our politics to the point that even spelling out their name in this comment will put it in moderation. But most Americans — not necessarily the folks here in FDL’s comments, but most — cannot make that kind of distinction, because their efforts to do so are aggressively manipulated.

We are at a crossroads, however, where this particular group has had unusual influence over our government (even infiltrating it with little public outcry, as indicated by the Larry Franklin prosecution) until now. I believe the shoe is being put on the other foot, and that this group will be used as a means for exercising the will of a much larger and more dangerous group, the corporatist military-industrialists. They don’t care any longer about national boundaries; being global entities, they matter only in terms of financial reporting and currency movement. And any effort by this small group of hardliners from a certain small country would merely be a means to their ends. How else would we find both Sunni Saudis and these same hardliners in bed with each other?

I called Joe Donnelly’s office last night, I missed him at a local grocery store during the afternoon — I couldn’t leave work.

I’ll call his local office today and try Senators Bayh and Lugar as well.

As if Iraq wasn’t bad enough. Invading Iran will be an unmitigated catastrophe — as well as being immoral and illegal.

QuakerGirl @ 43

fionnbarr @ 34

You want the war to stop, start people talking publicly about the Neocon manifesto, namely unconditional
support for Israel. Get them talking about how Israel was the principle factor in the Iraq war, and in the
coming war with Iran.

There are some talking points floating currently about how Israel was saying “No, no, no, Iran, not Iraq”,
at the start of the Iraq war, but they are misleading.

Anyone following the PNAC playbook was pretty well aware that Iraq, THEN Iran was the plan.

The NeoCons will scream to high heaven if the story starts hitting the airwaves about Israel’s role.

They’ll fall back to ‘It was Big Oil’ not Israel that motivated this’, but that will also be a lie.

A leaked [PDF] Israeli Communication Priorities Document from 2003 shows a clear emphasis on shaping the
media message in the U.S. linking Saddam and the War on Terror. It’s pretty clear that message control
in the U.S. is a major foreign policy issue for Israel, and this document demonstrates the confident facility
with which that ‘message shaping’ occurs.

Broadcast some John Hagee CUFI specials in the primetime news slots on top of this, for extra contrast.

Calling congress-critters, forget it, they are too afraid of speaking out.

Washington has a lot in common with Palestine.

I wish I didn’t have to agree with you but I’m afraid that would be avoiding reality. I, like so many others, hesitate because so quickly it turns into hating Jews. People just love to find something to go after and pin all problems on.

So many people in Israel have no voice. They are active in peace movements there. They too are called traders. Much the way anyone who opposes the Bush/Cheney doctrines are declared as unAmerican and aiding the terrorists.

I would love for this site to have a discussion on the NeoConservatives. The whole country needs one. My deep concern is how quickly it will go into “jew hating” instead of seeing a group of ideologues who have latched on to a cult belief that is self destructive.

Quaker Girl:

i agree that we need to be careful not to equate AI**C and the Neocons with all Israelis or American Jews. The problem remains: How do we counteract the disproportionate influence that has dogged American foreign policy and placed America as advocating the most extreme positions connected to Israel? There seems to be no getting around it. There is no balance and little rationality. We really need to disentangle ourselves. The government of Israel needs to be told it must make genuine efforts to solve the impasse with the Palestinians. They need to be made to understand that our government is scaling back it’s financial support and intends to start using diplomatic means and not military means to deal with foreign policy issues. Easy for me to say, yes, but incredibly difficult to do. Our government and think tanks are so full of people that would never agree to this that I don’t expect it to happen even in the lifetime of my grand children but it is the only thing that will make a substantial difference. We are headed for war in Iran. It is insane, immoral and horrendous. Israeli hawks and American Neocons have contributed substantially to this imminent debacle and they have not one whit of uncertainty or self doubt in regard to the part they are playing in bringing it about.

Steve-AR @ 84

From TPM:

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other senior intelligence officials should not be forced to testify about whether they discussed classified information with pro-Israel lobbyists, federal prosecutors argued in a closed-door court hearing Thursday.

Two former American Israel Public Affairs Committee lobbyists facing espionage charges have subpoenaed Rice, National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams and several others to testify at their trial next year. . . .

Attorneys for lobbyists Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman have argued that the Israeli interest group played an unofficial but sanctioned role in crafting foreign policy and that Rice and others can confirm it.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/052039.php

That last paragraph is a big “Rut-Roh.”

Boy, that could be the final blow. Demand that they be required to testify.

GSD @ 75

Loo Hoo. @ 49

Kimba1970,

It’s nice to hear from an Italian. I can understand your fears, being so close to this terrible war. You bring up an excellent point. Just because the American media is largly not informing the American people, where is the international pressure on our President and VP? If all of the EU took a united position and really spoke loudly and clearly, perhaps this would help. We are doing our best here is left blogistan.

Don’t look for any help from the world. They are a surly and weasely lot too.

Frances’ Sarkozy is a newly minted Tony Blair style French poodle who wants to be a big world player.

Japan’s Abe is looking forward to Japan’s old imperial days, he wants to return to a militaristic foreign policy and be a bulwark against China.

Russia’s Putin is an authoritarian who is in effect a Russian Bush. Though he has kept his bullying to his direct neighbors.

China, what can you say, they want money and power. Push comes to shove they’ll sit back and watch the US implode. If they have any internal problems they’ll roll tanks over unarmed protesters again in a heartbeat.

The UK is going to try to maintain a half-in, half-out approach. Can’t embrace or step to far away from Big Daddy USA, now that the Poodle is gone.

Australia has their own fear mongering twit of a neo-con leader.

Canada? Harper? He’s preparing to liberate the north pole from the rest of the world.

Poland is run by a pair of creepy twin wannabe fascists who want to be world players by hosting a US missile shield in order to stick it to the Russians.

Italy? Prodi? He’ll be gone by next Tuesday and then back on Friday.

The middle east? A sordid pack of sheikdoms, dictatorships and authortarians without vision or leadership that are all a plane crash away from a military coup d’etat.

Israel in on the threshold of bringing back the ultimate war monger Bibi Netanyahu. He needs to redeem the military for their first loss(Last summers Hezbollah war) since the creation of Israel…..that’ll bring all out war with Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas.

South America is creating their own sphere of influence and is willing to take what they can from the US and is also willing to tell us to screw. Good for them. Don’t expect them to help us or hurt us. Except for Hugo in Venezuela. He might use oil to put the screws to us if we keep pushing him around.

Africa is still a mess. They can’t even tell Zimbabwe’s Mugabe to go screw or deal with the Sudan/Darfur genocide in any serious way. Plus they are caught between a rise of Christian and Muslim fundamentalism from coast to coast.

The table is set for an unending tragedy of untold proportions.

-GSD

Are you saying (as someone posted last thread) “They’re rioting in Africa, they’re fighting in Spain, There’s hurricanes in Florida and Texas needs rain”? Or is this more on the order of Tom Lehrer’s “We will all fry together when we fry”?

QuakerGirl — We cannot be all blogs to all people. The reason I don’t cover that particular issue very often is that it is immensely complex — with undercurrents in and among even allied thinkers on all sides that are enormous shades of gray. And I don’t have time to fully school myself on all the issues involved in order to make sound decisions on who is or is not an adequate representative speaker on any one side — I just don’t. This blog cannot cover every issue in the world — we simply can’t. We try to cover the ones that we do in as in-depth and substantive a way as we possibly can, and keeping up with those issues that we do cover has me working more hours and taking more time away from my family than I ever did as an attorney.

There are a lot of blogs who cover those issues in-depth. We also, as brendan says, talk about them in the comments as well as trying to work in a post here and there when someone has particular expertise on the subject matter. What I’m saying is, we cover what we can — and we try to get to as much as we can when we know enough about it to give useful, insightful commentary. But we can’t do everything. We don’t have the budget, for one, and we sure as hell don’t have enough hours in the day to even do enough on the stuff we are already hitting day-to-day.

I’ve said this before, it’s easy enough for people who have a driving interest in a particular subject matter to start their own blog on that subject. We do what we can to the best of our ability, and we put it out there for free — analysis, interviews, what have you. If that isn’t enough for folks, then I don’t know what to say…

GSD @ 76:

Eloquently put. Especially about South America and Africa. As for China: It already is converting that $1 trillion sitting in the vaults of the People’s Bank of China into investment ventures to buy up US tech (and nontech) companies and real estate. This has got Congress riled up. We’ll see what they can do about it.

Steve-AR @ 83

From TPM:

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other senior intelligence officials should not be forced to testify about whether they discussed classified information with pro-Israel lobbyists, federal prosecutors argued in a closed-door court hearing Thursday.

Two former American Israel Public Affairs Committee lobbyists facing espionage charges have subpoenaed Rice, National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams and several others to testify at their trial next year. . . .

Attorneys for lobbyists Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman have argued that the Israeli interest group played an unofficial but sanctioned role in crafting foreign policy and that Rice and others can confirm it.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/052039.php

That last paragraph is a big “Rut-Roh.”

As delicious as it is to contemplate, this will never in a million years come out. This blackmail will succeed. No one needs to remind you of Scooter Libby’s trial.

kimba1970 @ 23

Cheers firepups, you all are a treasure…

Typical me, late to the party. Cheers to you Kimba, and to your entire superb comment (edited above for brevity!). This morning’s posts are stark reminders of the necessity of our involvement in speaking out against these insane policies.

I’m off to write some e-mails. Sic’em, Firepups!

GDS at 76,

I am afraid you are quite right, no external force is going to change the terrible momentum the war movement has gained in the State…

And your analysis (depressing isn’t it?) of the world situation is quite spot on: in Italy we barely managed to get rid of Berlusconi (head of the right wing coalition) with a minuscule margin and the left/center coalition behind Prodi is way to weak on the real issues (like the war)…

Not my ideal government but still one I have actively fought to install to try to mend the disasters operated by the right parties in over 6 years of government : I will work till I have energy to move the progressive part of that coalition in a position of real power !

Now I am really leaving, see you around..

I’ve said this before: The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful in this country. It’s the third rail in American politics.

I was going to be glad August is over but that means it’ll be September, time to roll out the new product.

LS @ 80

The request for the $50 billion certainly didn’t come from a DOD request, since Gates was not informed. It must be for something else.

Perhaps it was requested by a combination of the Carlyle Group, Halliburton, and the Bush Family Trust Funds. They have to recover from their investments in subprime mortgages.

Badwater @ 99

LS @ 80

The request for the $50 billion certainly didn’t come from a DOD request, since Gates was not informed. It must be for something else.

Perhaps it was requested by a combination of the Carlyle Group, Halliburton, and the Bush Family Trust Funds. They have to recover from their investments in subprime mortgages.

I want restitution from those people.

GSD @ 75: Yes; it makes ‘entangling alliances’ prior to WWI look — what? — cute? innocent? “relatively harmless” (in the words of Ford Prefect).

I wish that Congress would realize that they are ‘that close’ to going down in history as men and women who failed the U.S. and the world at one of the most crucial moments in world history.

This has not been a ‘failed Presidency’ at all. On the contrary, this has been a complete success for a certain unimaginably horrid program.

Biodun @ 95

I’ve said this before: The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful in this country. It’s the third rail in American politics.

It seems safer for the US if the Israelis are making decisions rather than Bush/Cheney/Rice.

Redd @90

Your point is well taken, but we DO live in a global world flat world thingy.

A*PAC has had enormous influence on our foreign policy especially in the Iraq disaster, which they lobbied for and practically led the way in.

A*PAC is the Israeli lobbyist and it could EASILY be argued that we fought the war FOR Israel… as “we” wouldn’t let them kick ass in Iraq.

Unless we decouple our foreign policy from Israel as long as it is an apartheid state, what happens in Israel and the occupied territories IS germane to USA politics. It should not be ignored because of complexity and nuance.

The issues there are pretty basic. Israel has illegally occupied territory and has a belligerent attitude to its neighbors (and they have the same to Israel… which include the recent Lebanon war.

~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~

A*PAC trial moves.

“Two former American Israel Public Affairs Committee lobbyists facing espionage charges have subpoenaed Rice, National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley, Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams and several others to testify at their trial next year. . . .

Attorneys for lobbyists Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman have argued that the Israeli interest group played an unofficial but sanctioned role in crafting foreign policy and that Rice and others can confirm it.”

Submitted without comment.

-GSD

brendan @ 84

peanutbutter @73

Here is what Quaker Girl said @46, prompting my comment:

“I would love for this site to have a discussion on the NeoConservatives. The whole country needs one. My deep concern is how quickly it will go into “jew hating” instead of seeing a group of ideologues who have latched on to a cult belief that is self destructive.”

She has a very good suggestion @74, on the other hand.

I see. That can still be read both ways, though. Up to her to clarify.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 91

QuakerGirl — We cannot be all blogs to all people. The reason I don’t cover that particular issue very often is that it is immensely complex — with undercurrents in and among even allied thinkers on all sides that are enormous shades of gray. And I don’t have time to fully school myself on all the issues involved in order to make sound decisions on who is or is not an adequate representative speaker on any one side — I just don’t. This blog cannot cover every issue in the world — we simply can’t. We try to cover the ones that we do in as in-depth and substantive a way as we possibly can, and keeping up with those issues that we do cover has me working more hours and taking more time away from my family than I ever did as an attorney.

There are a lot of blogs who cover those issues in-depth. We also, as brendan says, talk about them in the comments as well as trying to work in a post here and there when someone has particular expertise on the subject matter. What I’m saying is, we cover what we can — and we try to get to as much as we can when we know enough about it to give useful, insightful commentary. But we can’t do everything. We don’t have the budget, for one, and we sure as hell don’t have enough hours in the day to even do enough on the stuff we are already hitting day-to-day.

I’ve said this before, it’s easy enough for people who have a driving interest in a particular subject matter to start their own blog on that subject. We do what we can to the best of our ability, and we put it out there for free — analysis, interviews, what have you. If that isn’t enough for folks, then I don’t know what to say…

You’re obviously the boss, but I humbly suggest you rethink Quaker Girl’s @74. You aren’t a blog on every subject but you do cover a range of subjects, and you can’t have failed to notice how omnipresent and insistent the concern is here that there is a lack of public discourse on the subject. I particularly commend QG’s suggestion, as it’s a “positive” one and reminds me of the signs you see on synagogues: the ones that favor war and occupation often say “We Support Israel”, while the ones that dissent, at least on many points, with U.S. policy say “We Support Israel. We Support Peace.”

I understand why you wouldn’t want a millstone like this around your site’s neck; politics is hard enough without dancing around the third rail. But you should also acknowledge how the issue is pertinent to the war, and therefore almost every other subject and event you concentrate on here.

LS @ 80

The request for the $50 billion certainly didn’t come from a DOD request, since Gates was not informed. It must be for something else.

The $50 billion is really $210 billion being asked for in Sept. There are a lot of extra $’s requested, OVP?, as start-up costs for the Iranian war. IMHO

Christy Hardin Smith @ 90

QuakerGirl — We cannot be all blogs to all people. The reason I don’t cover that particular issue very often is that it is immensely complex — with undercurrents in and among even allied thinkers on all sides that are enormous shades of gray. And I don’t have time to fully school myself on all the issues involved in order to make sound decisions on who is or is not an adequate representative speaker on any one side — I just don’t. This blog cannot cover every issue in the world — we simply can’t. We try to cover the ones that we do in as in-depth and substantive a way as we possibly can, and keeping up with those issues that we do cover has me working more hours and taking more time away from my family than I ever did as an attorney.

There are a lot of blogs who cover those issues in-depth. We also, as brendan says, talk about them in the comments as well as trying to work in a post here and there when someone has particular expertise on the subject matter. What I’m saying is, we cover what we can — and we try to get to as much as we can when we know enough about it to give useful, insightful commentary. But we can’t do everything. We don’t have the budget, for one, and we sure as hell don’t have enough hours in the day to even do enough on the stuff we are already hitting day-to-day.

I’ve said this before, it’s easy enough for people who have a driving interest in a particular subject matter to start their own blog on that subject. We do what we can to the best of our ability, and we put it out there for free — analysis, interviews, what have you. If that isn’t enough for folks, then I don’t know what to say…

I’m picturing our moderators after an event where every other word has to pass through the filters cuz if they’re unfiltered they act like troll pheremones… I guess you’d have to purchase like some sort of special mental health insurance for them for the day…

;)

Christy Harden Smith, This song is for you!

Last night I nominated this song for the FDL song of the year ‘07.

GSD @ 75

Don’t look for any help from the world. They are a surly and weasely lot too.

Frances’ Sarkozy is a newly minted Tony Blair style French poodle who wants to be a big world player.

Japan’s Abe is looking forward to Japan’s old imperial days, he wants to return to a militaristic foreign policy and be a bulwark against China.

Russia’s Putin is an authoritarian who is in effect a Russian Bush. Though he has kept his bullying to his direct neighbors.

China, what can you say, they want money and power. Push comes to shove they’ll sit back and watch the US implode. If they have any internal problems they’ll roll tanks over unarmed protesters again in a heartbeat.

The UK is going to try to maintain a half-in, half-out approach. Can’t embrace or step to far away from Big Daddy USA, now that the Poodle is gone.

Australia has their own fear mongering twit of a neo-con leader.

Canada? Harper? He’s preparing to liberate the north pole from the rest of the world.

Poland is run by a pair of creepy twin wannabe fascists who want to be world players by hosting a US missile shield in order to stick it to the Russians.

Italy? Prodi? He’ll be gone by next Tuesday and then back on Friday.

The middle east? A sordid pack of sheikdoms, dictatorships and authortarians without vision or leadership that are all a plane crash away from a military coup d’etat.

Israel in on the threshold of bringing back the ultimate war monger Bibi Netanyahu. He needs to redeem the military for their first loss(Last summers Hezbollah war) since the creation of Israel…..that’ll bring all out war with Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas.

South America is creating their own sphere of influence and is willing to take what they can from the US and is also willing to tell us to screw. Good for them. Don’t expect them to help us or hurt us. Except for Hugo in Venezuela. He might use oil to put the screws to us if we keep pushing him around.

Africa is still a mess. They can’t even tell Zimbabwe’s Mugabe to go screw or deal with the Sudan/Darfur genocide in any serious way. Plus they are caught between a rise of Christian and Muslim fundamentalism from coast to coast.

The table is set for an unending tragedy of untold proportions.

-GSD

GSD, you are a cynical pessimist after my own heart.

Further to my 96:

Pace the ongoing intense controversy that this book has been generating before it’s even released:

John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, The Israeli Lobby and US Foreign Policy

From the NYTimes on August 16:

”The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” is not even in bookstores, but already anxieties have surfaced about the backlash it is stirring, with several institutions backing away from holding events with the authors.

John J. Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, and Stephen M. Walt, a professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, were not totally surprised by the reaction to their work. An article last spring in the London Review of Books outlining their argument — that a powerful pro-Israel lobby has a pernicious influence on American policy — set off a firestorm as charges of anti-Semitism, shoddy scholarship and censorship ricocheted among prominent academics, writers, policymakers and advocates. In the book, published by Farrar, Straus & Giroux and embargoed until Sept. 4, they elaborate on and update their case.

(NYTimes link behind TimesSelect firewall.)

I’m going to say this one more time in the comments, even though I’ve said it about a billion times before: shortcutting the discussion by saying “Jewish lobby” or “Israelis” or what have you is grossly inaccurate. There are particular factions in the Israeli political system which are more militarily inclined, just as there are in the US. But it isn’t all of Israel speaking with one, unified BiBi Netanyahu voice, any more than it is one, unified US voice that speaks with the W “yeehaw as a foreign policy” nitwit-ery.

There are a number of factions within the Israeli political system who fundamentally disagree with those types of policies, just as there are within the US. And trying to ascribe that sort of thought process as “all Israelis” is simply wrong. And, worse, it is insulting to the folks working for a more nuanced, intelligent approach and for peace to shorthand it that way — a number of whom read here every day.

So, do think before you shorthand. Just as all people who work for peace get branded DFHs, whether they are or not, all people who support Israel’s right to exist are not neocon warmonger types. And we do not do ourselves any favors to stereotype as an all-or-nothing thought process something is, truly, a whole lot of shades of gray in a region that is nothing but more shades of gray within gray.

What General, Ma’am said: (#90).

We’ll just keep giving deserving congresscritters our support and kicking out the hypocrite DINO/Bush Dogs.
Be focused and relentless.
Don’t give them a moment’s peace.
And keep helping people like Darcy Burner and Dr. Steve Porter.

Rahm Emmanuel and Rape Gurney Joe can go suck eggs.

Eureka Springs @ 108

Christy Harden Smith, This song is for you!

Last night I nominated this song for the FDL song of the year ‘07.

I second your nomination as FDL anthem.

Biodun @ 110

Further to my 96:

Pace the ongoing intense controversy that this book has been generating before it’s even released:

John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt, The Israeli Lobby and US Foreign Policy

From the NYTimes on August 16:

”The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” is not even in bookstores, but already anxieties have surfaced about the backlash it is stirring, with several institutions backing away from holding events with the authors.

John J. Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, and Stephen M. Walt, a professor at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, were not totally surprised by the reaction to their work. An article last spring in the London Review of Books outlining their argument — that a powerful pro-Israel lobby has a pernicious influence on American policy — set off a firestorm as charges of anti-Semitism, shoddy scholarship and censorship ricocheted among prominent academics, writers, policymakers and advocates. In the book, published by Farrar, Straus & Giroux and embargoed until Sept. 4, they elaborate on and update their case.

(NYTimes link behind TimesSelect firewall.)

And Jimmy Carter too. Look what they did to him for his book.

For decades, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has strangled the lungs not only of the Middle East but also of major portions of the world. The world would breathe a little easier when this conflict is resolved. And most certainly not before.

SanderO at 102 — Yes, and there is this thing I like to call blogspot that lets anyone start a blog for free on the issues that they feel are most important to be discussed.

This is Jane’s blog. And those of us who write here write about the issues that we bring to the table in terms of what is important to us and what we know about from real world experiences. FWIW, I would never show up at someone else’s blog and rant at them about not writing about the issues that are most important to me — I know how much time it takes me to write about the things I do already, and I’d never presume to demand more of someone else’s time like that. Suggesting a possible topic is one thing, but trying to pressure someone to write about something they’ve already said they don’t have an expertise in and aren’t comfortable writing about when they are already doing a helluva lot of work on a LOT of other important issues? I’m not even sure what to say to that…

Redd,

It’s not all Israelis and it’s not all Americans.

It’s the A*PAC crowd and the party in power in BOTH countries and their policies that we on the left are concerned with. And the link between the two rights is wrong.

~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~

Redd@116

I am not advocating pressuring anyone to change their blog.

But we want to change the direction of America and so the tools need to be broad and not narrow.

I would never tell FDL what to write about. Having the freedom and access to comment is more than a “blessing”. And that from an atheist is something.

MODERATOR NOTE-
Brendan – As Christy noted @ 116, there is a way to express views that aren’t covered to your satisfaction here. And challenging the host about the content is a bad way to further the discussion.

Virtually no topic is off-limits here, but it is not for you to drive the public policy path at FDL. That job belongs to Jane Hamsher and the other folks at the helm.

Taking up time arguing with your host is rude and it detracts from the coverage FDL does provide.

You haven’t said this “a billion times”. I haven’t even seen you say it once.

That said, this commentary flies in the face of reality. Just as U.S. foreign policy has long been bipartisan in most respects (29-21 Democratic AUMF vote, anyone? “Regime change” policy, anyone? That’s not “one voice” CHS?), so is Israel’s. Attacking Iraq was favored by most Israeli citizens and all of the Israeli establishment; while less broadly popular, attacking Iran is still a goal of the current government there and (correct me if I’m wrong) not objected to strenuously. Labor and right wing governments have both expanded settlements for decades.

But Israeli politics aren’t that relevant here. What’s more important to understand is that A*P*C is an asset to the Israeli state, regardless of which party holds power. Both, likewise, are interested in an Israeli intelligence pipeline to the White House and an alarmist view of the supposed threat from Iran.

I understand you don’t like the subject, you’re just unfairly generalizing about your commenters in this comment of yours when you say they’re “shortcutting the discussion” are engaging in “shorthand”. The statement that “all people who support Israel’s right to exist are not neocon warmonger types” is particularly obnoxious, an example of knocking down a strawman and constructing the same kind of false dichotomy you purport to decry.

I expect this comment angers and exasperates you. I don’t ask that you devote time to a response. But your last comment comes across as more insulting than you might realize.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 116

SanderO at 102 — Yes, and there is this thing I like to call blogspot that lets anyone start a blog for free on the issues that they feel are most important to be discussed.

This is Jane’s blog. And those of us who write here write about the issues that we bring to the table in terms of what is important to us and what we know about from real world experiences. FWIW, I would never show up at someone else’s blog and rant at them about not writing about the issues that are most important to me — I know how much time it takes me to write about the things I do already, and I’d never presume to demand more of someone else’s time like that. Suggesting a possible topic is one thing, but trying to pressure someone to write about something they’ve already said they don’t have an expertise in and aren’t comfortable writing about when they are already doing a helluva lot of work on a LOT of other important issues? I’m not even sure what to say to that…

Who “ranted” at you about writing about it? Who even “pressured” you? One commenter, Quaker Girl, made a limited suggestion, and I followed up by amplifying it, and that was the first time I’ve ever addressed a comment on the dread topic to you personally. Everyone, even me, was appropriately deferential, at least on the matter of what the content of your posts is. Let everyone know if you want the subject discussed on your blog at all, because your defensiveness reveals real discomfort with it, perhaps understandbly for a site that engages in Democratic party activism.

brendan @ 119

Christy Hardin Smith @ 116

SanderO at 102 — Yes, and there is this thing I like to call blogspot that lets anyone start a blog for free on the issues that they feel are most important to be discussed.

This is Jane’s blog. And those of us who write here write about the issues that we bring to the table in terms of what is important to us and what we know about from real world experiences. FWIW, I would never show up at someone else’s blog and rant at them about not writing about the issues that are most important to me — I know how much time it takes me to write about the things I do already, and I’d never presume to demand more of someone else’s time like that. Suggesting a possible topic is one thing, but trying to pressure someone to write about something they’ve already said they don’t have an expertise in and aren’t comfortable writing about when they are already doing a helluva lot of work on a LOT of other important issues? I’m not even sure what to say to that…

Who “ranted” at you about writing about it? Who even “pressured” you? One commenter, Quaker Girl, made a limited suggestion, and I followed up by amplifying it, and that was the first time I’ve ever addressed a comment on the dread topic to you personally. Everyone, even me, was appropriately deferential, at least on the matter of what the content of your posts is. Let everyone know if you want the subject discussed on your blog at all, because your defensiveness reveals real discomfort with it, perhaps understandbly for a site that engages in Democratic party activism.

Brendan,

You’re not the first and neither is QG. It happens more than you know. Also, see my 107 above. It’s not just a difficult issue.

Hope this helps.

CHS@ 111, thank you.

Let’s not forget that when we assume support for Israel is equivalent to support for A*PAC, or the L*kud, or a right wing perspective on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, we are buying into their framing of the issue.

~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~

Audrey @ 121

brendan @ 119

Who “ranted” at you about writing about it? Who even “pressured” you? One commenter, Quaker Girl, made a limited suggestion, and I followed up by amplifying it, and that was the first time I’ve ever addressed a comment on the dread topic to you personally. Everyone, even me, was appropriately deferential, at least on the matter of what the content of your posts is. Let everyone know if you want the subject discussed on your blog at all, because your defensiveness reveals real discomfort with it, perhaps understandbly for a site that engages in Democratic party activism.

Brendan,

You’re not the first and neither is QG. It happens more than you know. Also, see my 107 above. It’s not just a difficult issue.

Hope this helps.

I hadn’t thought of that. I don’t see everything CHS sees coming over the transom.

moderator @119:

Thank you for putting it plainly. I will take your advice.

brendan at 120 — This is an ongoing discussion, as you well know, which comes up from time to time. And I’ve answered the question ad nauseum on a weekly basis when it comes up. I’m having one of those days when my phone is ringing off the hook, I have surprise company and I’m trying to get 80 things done at once — and having to deal with this question…yet again today…isn’t exactly how I wanted to spend my day.

My level of “discomfort?” It’s born of frustration at answering the same question and having to then turn around and answer it again…and again…and again…

Christy Hardin Smith @ 125

brendan at 120 — This is an ongoing discussion, as you well know, which comes up from time to time. And I’ve answered the question ad nauseum on a weekly basis when it comes up. I’m having one of those days when my phone is ringing off the hook, I have surprise company and I’m trying to get 80 things done at once — and having to deal with this question…yet again today…isn’t exactly how I wanted to spend my day.

My level of “discomfort?” It’s born of frustration at answering the same question and having to then turn around and answer it again…and again…and again…

I was sincere in saying I didn’t need you to respond. I value your time more than my own, quite frankly. Thanks for the response anyway, thanks for the forebearance you show, and, above all, thanks for the site.

Thanks brendan, really appreciate it. I’m just having a day today…SIGH

I caught Meek and two colleagues on CSPAN yesterday, discussing their “day in Iraq”. I think they said they’d spent some 18 hours on the ground. But I was very interested to hear their answer to a press question regarding the 50 billion appropriation coming up in the house. One of the three congressmen said, flat-out, “I will not vote against funding with our troops in the field.” The other two, which including Meek himself, were stronger in opposition, discussing clear timelines, etc. All democrats.

I have read more criticism of Lik*d’s policies in the Israeli media than I have encountered in the USA, including nonMSM, media. My general impression of North American media is that it, left or right or centre or nowhere, is too defensive to acknowledge that Israeli society and its politics is not homogeneous but plural like almost every other country. The world accepts readily that neocons are not the only US political ideology and the Likud is one party among many in Israeli politics.

That said, CHS has a point that regular posters at a blog write about what they want to write about.

Lik*d’s dominance since 1967 has subverted all attempts for peace in the ME because it is simply not possible without resolving the issue of Palestine and Balkanisation into disaggregated Arab Bantustans is never going to work. This in no way questions I*rael’s right to exist within its pre1967 borders.

Mearsheimer and Walt are not the only Jewish voices that questioned the role of A*P*C in influencing the current neocon ideological putsch in the USA. Nor do I think non Jewish voices should be silenced for fear of being labelled antisemites. Most who argue that are more East European Khazars and less semitic than Palestinians.

The issue of A*P*C is a subset of the bigger problem of lobbyists’ influence on US politics, their access to Congress members, their monies to purchase pork barelling earmarks and fatten political campaigns. Who finances the think tanks that American politicians seek policy advice from to safeguard national strategic interests? This is just a suggestion to reframe the issue away from questioning I*rael’s role on shaping US policies. You cannot sheet the blame on another country if you cannot hold your own elected representatives to account.

Edited and released by Mods

question for the mods–

Why did you do that?

Gov. Bill Richardson needs to pack his bags for Iraq, he is the only person that I believe can find a peaceful resolution to this war. He needs to stay there until a diplomatic solution is found and when he comes back with one, he will be well deserving of the presidency…..now that is what I would call real leadership.

I think Meeks is spot on. the government funding can’t go on like this. What do we have to show for it? I mean lets do a comparison to say welfare dollars. Like look at the katrina folks. man we been sendint them checks for fourty years and wham soon as a hurricane hits man they busted loose aith all kinds of behavior. I mean why did they have to kill the old lady after they stole her morphine cancer medication. so I am with Meelsey from Mimami. Accountability is first. we want more bang for our tax bucks.