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Morning gang -- woke up late this morning, so I'm leaving this as a news discussion thread until I get back from the preschool drop-off. In the meantime, Yglesias by way of Digby: should we or should we not torture has become a legitimate topic of discussion, because the Bush Administration has so eroded basic values and decency on their watch. Discuss.
What is catching your eye in the news and on the blogs this morning?
(Photo of a yummy-looking iced mocha via cria-cow.)
UPDATE: It's time for a morning helping of "why I love David E." -- or how the phrase "tearoom trade" was the forerunner of "restroom leg syndrome." Do give this a read -- you'll be glad you did.
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Zed?
Good morning Christy!
My first one! I’m giddy. :)
kinmo @ 3
yay kinmo!
I was raised in the era when it was a given that we do not torture. It was only the “bad guys” that did that, which is part of the reason that all the War Crimes trials were held after WWII.
I want my country back.
This intrigued me this morning:
Report Finds Little Progress On Iraq Goals
GAO Draft at Odds With White House
(((((((Christy and the Peanut!)))))))
As far as news goes, the Zeppelin von Craig is approaching the mooring tower at Lakehurst…the Captain was last seen smoking nervously, but determined to show the world that he is NOT Gay.
dakine01 @ 5
Here HERE!
RE: Senator Craig…
He’s not gay — he’s an Idahomosexual!
Congress report finds Iraq failing on goals: report
Musharraf Agrees to Resign as Army Chief
dakine01 @ 5
We have become the bad guys. That is how we are seen around the world. We have become the USSR. The “permanent Republican Majority” is no different than the single-party system that ruled the USSR under Stalin, Kruschev and Breznev. We have become Mussolini’s Italy. We have become the Gestapo.
It sickens me.
Oh, poor Christy; I hate that waking-up-late-running-child-to-school thing, have done it in my pajamas a couple of times and prayed I’d not have an accident or be forced to talk with anyone while in a state of dishabille.
School starts here the day after Labor Day…and I am counting down the hours.
Republicans believe what two people do in the privacy of a public restroom stall is no one else’s business… unless there are no prominent Republicans involved — which apparently is very rare.
Good morning from L.A. Up early here, & out the door to work early.
What’s catching my eye this a.m.? This, via juancole.com:
Cheney & Iran: Barnett Rubin relays a message from a well-connected friend in Washington on the Cheney Administration’s plans to roll out a military confrontation with Iran in September.
Bush lost the support of the American people over Katrina.
But, Bush lost the support of the entire World over Torture.
What’s getting my goat is a little blurb in the NYT that says Bush now feels that he has a stronger hand in his fight with Congress about Iraq “because the tone has changed since July.” I guess they feel that they’ve saturated the media enough with this “seeds of hope” bullshit, combined with the “years to pullout” bullshit and the “even Democrats plan on staying” bullshit to push for a 50 billion dollar surge protection budget.
Has the tone shifted? If it has, why? Nothing has changed except people are even more tired about hearing the bad news out of Iraq.
I can easily foresee the next president, even a Democrat, going into office and rolling up their sleeves saying it’s time to get serious with Iraq and then escalating this stupid war. It happened in Vietnam, sort of.
good morning everyone
as far as the discussion here’s the way I think everyone needs to frame the debate;
everyone needs to start off using historical perjuratives
things like;
“hitler had his constituents agreeing with him too”
“it’s a sick person that agrees with hitler and saddam [insert other depraved heads of state who are known to torture]”
“how sick is this?…the president used the fact that saddam tortured as one of his reasons to depose him and now he wants to torture…worse then that, he has convinced you torture is good”
after the historical perjuratives you hit them with the FACT that there is LESS information gathered through torture then the humange interrogation techniques
the information gathered through the other techniques is more accurate, more actionable and MORE ABUNDANT
in addition the information gathered through torture squanders resources investigating information that is not nearly as likely to be accurate as the information we would have gathered otherwise.
so we need to insert into the conversation the FACT that people will die, attacks will succeed BECAUSE we torture
more events will be prevented with acceptable interogation then with torture and people will die baecuase there are sickos that have too little mental capacity to understand that fact
then insert into the conversation that we breed contempt, hatred the amount of people that want to visit harm to America and Americans increases exponentially
then insert into the conversation that it is a proven FACT that dissallowing torture protects OUR soldiers
and add to that fact the military are AGAINST policies that include torture BECUASE it puts our servicement at risk
must go to work, will not be able to contribute too much to this thread
enjoy morning all
Elliott @ 6
Beware the lowerlevel career folks . . . once you’ve lost their trust, you will have a helluva time trying to get anything done.
GeorgeSimian @ 17
I think Americans have given up hope for anyone stopping this insane occupation. The views of the majority of Americans have not changed, but with the top Democratic candidates seemingly not willing to end the occupation and enough spineless Democrats in the House and Senate to prevent any action being taken on that front, I think Americans have just lost hope.
Marie Roget @ 15
That’s the one that caught my eye too. He’s pathological. Scary.
Elliott @ 6
elliot, go over to think progress…one of the leads tells us the generals refuse to acknowledge the president’s preferance as a unified opinion and they insist that whatever course the president takes is not a consensus among them
will provide link and quote in a moment
Marie Roget @ 15
chilling. AND I wouldn’t put it past ‘em.
GeorgeSimian @ 17
I think this is preemptive hype; he’s coming to ask Congress for another 50 billion for the war, and he’s getting on his game face.
F*ck him. He should not get one red cent unless it’s to fold operations and bring home our troops, and Congress should put it to him that way. It’s time to make Bush aware that the tone has changed, that we are taking it to the Bush Dog Dems and moderate-spineless Repugs and tell them that we, the people, have had the f*ck enough of them killing our troops for a lie.
How’s that for a change in tone?
RevDeb @ 21
If THE people want to stop this we need to act immediately.
How’s the move going Rev Deb?
Elliott @ 6
elliot, go over to think progress…one of the leads tells us the generals refuse to acknowledge the president’s preferance as a unified opinion and they insist that whatever course the president takes is not a consensus among them
will provide link and quote in a moment
ok, check this out;
from here
Hartford Courant editorial links Craig and Vitter and hypocrisy
i wonder if there are pernicious and more pervasive changes happening in our culture… is it my imagination, or are we becoming more accepting of everyday cruelty?
c all L8tr
Peterr @ 19
I take comfort from that Peterr, especially after reading Marie Roget @ 15
I think the rhetoric with Iran is just to back up their argument that failure in Iraq would mean the conflict would spread.
Rayne @ 13
When my youngest child left home for college I used to drive around town and I would burst into tears when I passed the Elementary School or the Little League field. I was an emotional wreck for a good Friedman Unit.
Then one weekday evening my wife suggested that we might think about going out together to a movie. The lightbulb went off in my head. I was done with the day-to-day life of a parent. It was such a liberating moment that I will never forget it. It rocked my world and I’ve been a happy empty-nester ever since.
Rayne and Christy (and all you parents with young kids out there) - enjoy the time you have with your young children because you can’t believe how fast they grow up and go away. You turn around one day and your little peanut is going off to college and starting his or her own life. So savor every moment, because one day real soon it will all be a memory.
That’s when the fun begins!
perris @ 26
thanks perris! did you see twolf1 @ 10?
perris @ 29
Ditto, perris et al.
I’ll be reading you & catching up this p.m…
selise @ 28
Vermicious too.
Hi RevDeb & Rayne… Good Morning
Just started cruising the headlines… going to make coffee and watch the sun come up..
Anyone one a cuppa?
the feingold video, “My Next president Will Be” has one sign that says “A Cheesehead”.
Feingold in 2012!
edit: forgot linky: russ feingold’s video
Elliott @ 6
crap - Feingold link (hopefully)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....dylan-fan/
jayt @ 37
Keep trying there, jayt
Good morning Christy - fresh cuppa, Stella Doro Anisette Toast & FDL - great beginnings.
Cholera outbreak in northern Iraq:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6970130.stm
A predictable consequence of the breakdown of infrastructure. A predictable consequence of Bush’s ill-conceived invasion (not to mention the dozen or so years prior to it).
I am just… speechless. Appalled.
Hey katymine — hit me with some java. Rough night last night, up too late and tossed all evening, lucky if I got 4 hours of sleep.
Dang, probably a good think I’m not driving any kids to school today, come to think of it…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....id=topnews
The Congressionally mandated GAO report was leaked and sees progress only on 3/18 benchmarks with Iraqi security forces declining from 10 to 6.
howdy RevDeb!
Night Musing @ 42
this is a story flying way too low under the radar.
jayt @ 37
I’ve been blessed to be married to a South Milwaukee Cheesehead for almost 28 years, and although I am a lifelong New Yorker I have become a Cheesehead as well.
We progressive Cheeseheads are immeasureably proud of our Cheesehead Senator.
Keep up the good work Russ!
perris @ 26
Yeah, I found that very intriguing, too. (I was off trying to remember where I’d seen it when you posted it.)
It’s a new day but the same scandal. I am ready for a new one. Please let it be any Republican from Oklahoma.
Coffee, must have coffee.
Was very pleased to see the GAO reports leaked before the white house got it’s slimy hands upon it.
That’s got to hurt the plans to edit the report hard.
And now I see the Cholera outbreak in Iraq. Bad stuff. Can’t start that one without the coffee.
Jim Clausen @ 44
And this, from Kevin Drum, was also a very interesting detail:
Jim Clausen @ 25
We’re down to a couple of dozen boxes of stuff to find places for. The movers “lost” on box that had wedding presents and candlesticks that Mr. Rev’s mom used when she was alive. I’m hurting over that even though I know it’s just stuff. Once we’ve jumped through the moving company hoops to discover that no one knows where the box is I’ll openly write about it—who they are etc. . . . until then, I’d like them to *find* the box.
Hired a new administrator for the church yesterday. That will be good. Have started meetings and next week full throttle in the offices.
Other than a very clear picture and lots of extra channels, Verizon has been a nightmare to deal with. Those of you thinking of switching from Comcast—don’t do it.
Off to buy more stuff today so that we can organize the stuff we have so we can find it.
The tradespeople (plumbers, electricians, tree guys, etc.) are very happy ($$) that we moved in.
And the Cubs, though having lost several games of late are still in first place.
That’s it from here. Gotta get up and out the door.
Have a great one everyone.
Revdeb — you settled in now? everything home-like?
cholera?
In light of this leaked GAO report. Will someone/constituent go back to Rep. Baird and ask him what the hell is thinking? Did he receive the Dog and Pony show from the military? Or should we not believe that GAO? It is time to force all Democrats to get off their buts and end this ridiculous war. Hopefully by shutting down Iraq, we might prevent Iran attacks. Which I also saw noted above scheduled for Sept.
Could we make the case that the whole “we don’t torture, we use ‘enhanced’ techniques” thing is just another case of Republican-sponsored hypocricy? Wasn’t it DeTocqueville who wrote that when America ceased to be good, it would cease being great? He wasn’t kidding. “Proud to be an American”? Are we kidding? We’re crouching down at the level of some third world despotic sinkhole - but today’s activity for me is the email for my senators and congress folks - and frankly, to Kuhl and Walsh, who won’t listen because they are Republican pinheads, but I have to try.
emerald @ 54
No thanks. I take my coffee black.
Good morning, Christy.
Outsourcing the Case for War with Iran
Jim Lobe notes the appearance of a mysterious organization led by Kimberly Kagan (yes, those Kagans) with ominous implications here:
LobeLog.com
sangemon @ 12
The good news is that our current government is as incompetent at running a police state as it is at everything else. It’s not for trying, and when we get a real Blue Dog Dem in office things will be straightened out and the trains will once again run on time.
This speech was given by an Iraq Veteran at a town hall meeting for Congressman Jim Ramstad of Minnesota last night. Please read and pass along to everyone you know.
http://www.mnblue.com/brendan_day_story
-snip-
I learned to be extremely wary of the Iraqi soldiers and police officers. They had outposts all over the city, but some how they never saw or heard anything when we were attacked. At some point the decision was made to station Iraqi army regulars on our base. For some reason the mortar attacks we endured every few days became more accurate and many of the raids that we went on with them were exercises in futility because the targets seemed to know that American soldiers were on the way before we ever left the wire.
I learned what cruel irony was when a female soldier we’d never worked with before got added to a routine patrol with us. The truck that she was in got hit by an anti-tank rocket, and an anti-tank rocket is a nasty thing. It has an explosive to penetrate armor, and a secondary explosive that detonates inside the vehicle. If it hadn’t been for her last minute addition to the patrol that Christmas Eve, her seat would have been empty and her tiny body wouldn’t have been there to catch that secondary explosion, and four of my brothers might have been taken instead. The irony of the situation was that when she got out of the army, she was going to become a nun. Because of that fact, her sacrifice has been the only one that I have found any meaning in.
–snip–
These are some of the lessons that the men and women who fight on your behalf are learning every single day. These are the burdens that we carry for the rest of our lives. I won’t speak to the legitimacy of this war tonight, but I ask that as you contemplate it you remember that there are nearly four thousand dead American soldiers, seven times as many wounded and no one comes home undamaged. For those of you who want to do something but are hesitant for whatever reason, I implore you to get active on behalf of the men and women who risk everything for us. Your voice does matter, and NOW is the time to a stand.
Congressman Ramstad, I ask you to justify your continued support of President Bush’s policies in Iraq. When a person decides that they will risk their life for their country, they cross a bridge that few do, and they gain a wisdom that few have. I have crossed that sacred bridge, and Congressman Ramstad I tell you that this war is not worth the blood that it costs to fuel it. The next time you are faced with a vote concerning the war, side with America, and side with the troops that live and die defending her. Bring the troops home, and give us the care that we need and deserve.
Here ya go gang (and in record time too), it’s my L.A. Times op-ed on Larry Craig:
Our Own (Not So Private) Idahos
Back from the drop-off. Sorry this is so rushed this morning, gang. Hate waking up late…
Thank goodness for Mr. ReddHedd and the fact that he made me coffee before he left for work. Bless the man.
Rayne @ 53
See comment 52. That about sums it up.
twolf1 @ 10
Three out of 18 “earned” Bush his MBA so he’ll view this as positive.
Elliott @ 6
Oy. The NIE said that Iraq was going to hell in a handbasket. If that was the watered-down version, I’d hate to see what the original looked like.
On the lighter side, I found this from The Onion pretty amusing:
Maybe we should hold a full mock impeachment, just to show them how it’s done, and demonstrate that we know what we’re talking about.
Marie Roget @ 15
Cheney must be impeached as an act of national self-defense. I don’t care about the ultimate success of failure - just tie this bastard’s hands for a while - like until January, 2009.
The GAO leak gives me hope that the ‘permanent government’ is taking charge again. I’m not sure if this is coming from Bush Sr.’s people or is really an act of personal courage, but it’s been a long time coming.
I want to feel pride in my country again instead of utter shame & horror.
Sweden alone has accepted tens of thousands of displaced Iraqis. I’m actually shocked that the US has even allowed a trickle of about 700 come here.
Torture, habeous corpus, Katrina, Schip, destroying the constitution….
People who should be in incarceration under the strictest security forever instead are holding the reins of power in their hands. And they are not content with just destroying this country, they want to wreck havoc on the whole planet.
I slept in this am & my husband said I missed the train wreck of Matt Lauer trying to interview Tom Delay on nbc. I felt bad that my normally easy going husband who was sputtering in disgust had to watch diabolical Delay all by himself.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 62
And that’s the price you pay for hanging out at the Lake in the evening hours! ;})
David Ehrenstein @ 61
“Get a room” indeed!! Here here.
One of the many horrid consequences of the normalization of torture in America is the Padilla case. That a judge could rule that the three years in a brig being “interrogated” didn’t matter at the trial is but one way in which our values have been undermined from within. Think of the message that sends to a police officer who might be inclinded to “rough up” a suspect just a little bit.
Oh, I see Revdeb and I cross-posted. Thanks for the update if you check back, Rev.
Kate @ 60
Thanks for that, Kate. Made me cry. I’ve patched it on to some folks in MN media to see if we can get a follow up.
edit: doggone it, I missed Revdeb again!! too much multi-tasking here this morning, sorry!
DKos has a diary saying that MSNBC won’t air the ‘Freedom Watch’ ads.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/30/813/45389
So, I read it and followed a few links and ended up at Powerline. OMG, those people are sick. Anti-semitism, sexism (in the guise of chivalry) and enough hate to last me awhile.
David E. at 61 — Now THAT is a fascinating op-ed. Thanks so much for sharing the link — I’ve linked it up above. As always, wonderfully written but really instructive for those of us who have never suffered from “restroom leg sundrome” as well.
How about a little GOOD news, for those who haven’t seen it yet? (We can hope, can’t we?)
(BTW, Conyers said he was the first one to introduce a resolution calling for Richard Nixon’s impeachment. I didn’t know that.)
****
Rep. John Conyers declared House Speaker Nancy Pelosi could not stop him from beginning impeachment proceedings in the House Judiciary Committee against a ‘long list of people’in the Bush administration, although he did not make a firm commitment to begin proceedings.
“Nancy Pelosi has impeachment ‘off the table,’ but that’s off her table, it is not off John Conyers’ table,” the Michigan Democrat said during a town hall meeting in his district Tuesday. “Nancy Pelosi, who I actually supported, cannot prevent me from introducing an impeachment resolution against, well I’ve got a long list of people who are eligible.”
more:
Conyers says, “Impeachment may be off Pelosi’s table, but not mine”
The story I have been monitoring besides the wacky USA bus that is being driven by a bunch of madmen is the fires in Greece.
Over a half of million acres have burned this month and nearly 3/4 million acres this year. The national elections are Sept 16th and the conservative is really taking the heat for the poor response to the fires and relief aid. Over 10,000 protesters were at the parliament yesterday.
This could be the Greek Katrina but the Greeks are made enough that they might boot these guys out.
Anger over Greek Fires puts ruling party’s lead in peril
I was there in 1977 during that national election which was really nasty.
Hey who says that Greeks don’t have great ideas, the idea of not having polls the two weeks prior to the election sounds pretty great!
Rayne @ 73
Rayne,
I do hope to be back on some threads soon. It’s just been so overwhelming. And Mr. Rev is home all the time now. Different dynamic . . . .Now I’ve really got to go.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 76
I really hope this is more than political posturing.
Oh, and Tom Tomorrow and August Pollack (xoverboard) are particularly good this week.
This made me laugh. It is a letter to the editor in the LA times regarding Gonzales’ resignation.
Don’t let the Constitution hit you on the way out.
Mel Powell Sherman Oaks
Hehe Contessa Brewer is sticking it to Tom Delay
Saw a heading while webcruising that said Edwards says America is willing to give up its gas-guzzling SUVs.
And here’s what stopped me [not to read the article, I was flyin’ between errands, so I have to go back to that], but rather, “gas-guzzling SUVs.”
Just when did America and yep, I’m lookin’ at you, Detroit, give up its ingenuity and creativity? When did settling for yesterday’s status quo become not only acceptable, but celebrated?
A ND entrepreneur invented a tank heater for car engines back in the day. And these days, a coupla guys in a garage in near-to-Fargo Detroit Lakes have come up with a fuel additive that reportedly improves gas mileage by 10%.
While we’ve focused on the internet superhighway, America’s highways and byways have been neglected in infrastructure and the ingenuity of the vehicles that travel ‘em.
Yeah, fuel efficiency isn’t as sexy hormone pumpin’ as those fancy chrome rally wheels, but it sure could be if it were marketed smart.
Have we settled for being a “Gentlemanly C” America? I believe, I’ve seen, we can do better.
Demand better. Be better.
Oh, and have I mentioned: Edwards ‘08
Thanks Rayne.
My representative Michele Bachmann didn’t even show to her town hall meeting last evening, even after the organizers agreed to her stipulations:
1. Everyone had to be screened to prove they were a constituent by providing their driver’s lisenses.
2. All questions must be written on paper and screened by a Bachmann staffer.
This is nothing new for her, she refuses to meet with anyone that doesn’t agree with her.
Kate @ 84
Hey Kate, you might want to drop that as a tip to the folks at MinnesotaMonitor.com.
;-)
“What is catching your eye…”
What’s catching my eye is the MSM not knowing whether to shit or go blind.
“The surge is working.” OR:
“The surge is not working”
The British government:
“We will be there to help the Iraqi people in their quest for democracy.” OR:
“The United States does not determine the policies of the British government.”
Time, creeping in at it’s petty pace; to bedevil the repubs up for re-election in 2008.
:o)
Hillary Clinton getting more and more of her talking points from the Bush Administration.
Wall Street, and the financial “auguries”, jerking and twitching around like blowflies on a hot turd.
Frankly, (Just bein’ honest here, Christy) the paranoia on my part, that there won’t be enough of our military, our conger-eels, our fat-cats, our allies, our media, and our Joe-and-Jane-Sixpak-voters, to stop bush from starting up a full-on mid-east war, in his desperation to enfold the fuckup he’s already created, into a much larger fuckup.
I’m not sure that the powers-that-be are fully aware of just HOW brain-addled and panicky are the assholes who’ve dragged us into this shitire. I fear that too many republicans and not-totally-over-the-edge conservatives are looking at bush’s demented saber-rattling, and thinking:
“Hmmmm…it just might get us through the next 14 months with enough jingo-jizz to stave off SOME of the democratic tsunami….”
I could go on, for an hour or two, but there’s the bandwidth consideration…
:o)
Oops!
One thing I left out.
I’m personally heartened by the number of people who are coming to the realization that John Edwards is the best of the lot, to try get the country on track for some progressive, populist, government. :o)
Excellent piece, David E. Thanks for sharing.
No news but bad news in Iraq will not stop decider guy from pushing onward. The only thing stopping him from Iran is that the military really will not support another war under current conditions.
I pray that some new sanity will have come to a handful of Senators and Representatives when class resumes in September.
Troops out now. Iraq Summer having an impact. Anyone know if any of the military against the war speeches from this week have seen any air, including u-tube? Our speaker was really good.
Just wondering if someone here might make a list of all the Republicans, say in the last two years, who’ve been, like Vitter and Craig most recently, in compromising situations.
Or maybe in the last six years.
I realize that this is a fair bit of work, but such a list might be useful. It could be compared with, say, the previous eight years or with the Democrats’ record for the same time period.
Kate @ 84
Just back from a quick visit to the bachman website. On all the issues listed instead of a position taken she has “Coming Soon!”
Wow, have you got a great rep.
Prairie Sunshine @ 83
The last time I heard of “the gentleman’s C” it was when I was, ahem, in college back in the day. But it’s true - I looked at the federal gov’t listing of the “fuel economy leaders” in their classes and the list is pitiful. The gulf between the hybrids and the other “fuel economy leaders was in the 30-40 mpg range. Huh? We can’t do better than THAT? That’s nuts. I think Detroit has just decided that they aren’t going to compete.
My introduction to the idea that the U.S. should torture was when Alan Dershowitz was given a forum to make the argument on 60 Minutes in 2002.
David Ehrenstein @ 61
Excellent David. Thank you.
CKR: I haven’t “crunched the numbers” ( :o) ) but it HAS to be approaching Rugby-team proportions. :o)