What would you get?
Answer: Jan Schakowsky (emphasis and photo added):
When Rep. Jan Schakowsky made her first trip to Iraq this month, the outspoken antiwar liberal resolved to keep her opinions to herself. “I would listen and learn,” she decided.
At times that proved a challenge, as when Deputy Prime Minister Barham Salih told her congressional delegation, “There’s not going to be political reconciliation by this September; there’s not going to be political reconciliation by next September.” Schakowsky gulped — wasn’t that the whole idea of President Bush’s troop increase, to buy time for that political progress?
But the real test came over a lunch with Gen. David H. Petraeus, who used charts and a laser pointer to show how security conditions were gradually improving — evidence, he argued, that the troop increase is doing some good.
Still, the U.S. commander cautioned, it could take another decade before real stability is at hand. Schakowsky gasped. “I come from an environment where people talk nine to 10 months,” she said, referring to the time frame for withdrawal that many Democrats are advocating. “And there he was, talking nine to 10 years.”
[snip]
The lack of political progress among Iraq’s rival factions and Petraeus’s estimate of the time needed to stabilize the nation left Schakowsky all the more convinced that Democrats must force Bush to begin bringing troops home.
“This is not the structure that’s going to say, ‘Why? Why are we here? What are we really accomplishing here?’ The mission is to take down the bad guys, to establish order,” she said of her sessions with Petraeus and other military leaders. The meetings “made me feel more determined that the policy is going to have to be set in Washington, that the Congress is going to have to exert its will here to end this war.”
[snip]
A co-founder of the House Out of Iraq Caucus, Schakowsky saw only fleeting glimpses of Iraqis’ day-to-day life during her one-day trip. The few times she ventured out of the Green Zone, she was in a helicopter or a speeding convoy, soldiers hanging out of the windows with machine guns, obscuring the view. She heard about dire power and water shortages, yet saw nothing firsthand.
But the military presentations left her stunned. Schakowsky said she jotted down Petraeus’s words in a small white notebook she had brought along to record her impressions. Her neat, looping handwriting filled page after page, and she flipped through to find the Petraeus section. ” ‘We will be in Iraq in some way for nine to 10 years,’ ” Schakowsky read carefully. She had added her own translation: “Keep the train running for a few months, and then stretch it out. Just enough progress to justify more time.”
“I felt that was a stretch and really part of a PR strategy — just like the PR strategy that initially led up to the war in the first place,” Schakowsky said.
Anyone want to guess how many CNN and talking head appearances Rep. Schakowsky will get over the next week?
Any idea where the Congressional leadership is in amplifying this message? Pelosi? Emanuel (cough, yarite!)? Reid (no no, yer killin’ me!)? Hoyer (no no, please, now you’re jes pilin’ on!)? I’d say it’s time to put their mugs on milk cartons, but it’s been long past that time for a while now, dontcha think?
Thank you, Rep. Schakowsky. As Darcy says, “more and better Democrats.”
Please help Darcy get to $100k this weekend, to teach Bushbot Reichert a lesson.
As of this writing, Darcy’s a little more than half way there, though every little bit helps, and the final tracking of the numbers will have to come from her campaign, since more than one page is kicking in the turkee.
Go give Darcy $5, please, to combat the zombie stupid permeating the DC water supply. (Someone must be dumping highly concentrated vats of the stuff into the Potomac basin aquifer; it leaches out everywhere. Jane and I both drink filtered water, at Kobe’s sage insistence).
PS – Think the FISA vote was no big deal? I highly recommend you see this movie.
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yeahhhhhhh
why i cant believe it lol now back to the post
Hi, juslin.
At this rate of stupidity, Darcy should have no fundraising problems.
hellooo pach :0
I moved to Jan’s district after living for years in the district w/ the stupidest rep in Congress (Joe Wilson, Columbia SC). The difference is amazing. I still email her when there are big votes–and not only does she vote intelligently, but she responds intelligently.
Hi Pach, lucky sevens?
you got it, wangdang.
tom, I’m glad you made designation of the appellation clear.
I wouldn’t want our good friend Ambassador Wilson to get the wrong idea!
Woo-hoo, better go get a Lotto ticket, I’m on roll!
Gave Darcy $25 last night.
Again, I say, why is Baird still on the Actblue directory? Is the progressive blogosphere continuing to endorse him?
Bill R. @ 11
Anyone can put up a page on ActBlue. It’s a piece of infrastructure, not a managed list. It’s available to all democrats, and not limited to those promoted by members of the progressive blogosphere.
“Mugs on milk cartons” good idea
Certainly. There is a great Joe Wilson, and an idiot Joe Wilson. My rep in SC was the idiot. He has hoof in mouth disease like you wouldn’t believe. We cringe when he is asked a question.
Bill R. @ 11
ActBlue lists all Democrats, I believe. Blue America is something different.
Schakowsky is great. WaPo has an interview here.
Petraeus says we will be there 9 or 10 years, she says,
i had a rough summer money-wise – i hope to be able to contribute this fall – i had ahem tax problems… wonder why? anyhoo thats cleared up sooo it looks a bit better for the kid ;}.. of course reps who dont drink iraq kool-aid wont get time on the sunday chatfests surprise? noooooo
Just got back from giving Ms. Burner $25. It sounds like she knows what to do w/ it.
Glad things are starting to look up for you, juslin. Hang in there.
tom @ 18
Thanks, tom.
I’ve given to her before, but I gave to her yesterday when I also gave to Dan Maffei. I also put a $10 spot on Hilda Solis to show.
I said it before, and I’ll say it again. the consensus view in Washington is that the US will remain in Iraq indefinitely.
Baird is sitting on a ton of money, over $800k, IIRC. He’s received very little from ActBlue, and living in his district, I’ve seen nothing in the way of fund raising efforts locally. And I don’t think anyone is running against him.
Why aren’t Baird and Schakowsky booked together so we can hear both opinions of the same place? Now that would be enlightening for the voters.
This made me gag: From Atrios
MILFORD, N.H. — Mitt Romney says he wants to encourage a “surge of support” for the troop surge in Iraq this summer.
To that end, Romney announced at a business here that he is contributing $25,000 of his own money to seven organizations aiding the troops and their families. He also placed the names and contact information for the organizations on his campaign’s website to encourage supporters to give.
“I would like to show a surge of public support that can communicate to our troops over there that we care, we appreciate what you are doing, we want you to come home as soon as you can safe and sound,” said Romney.
Mitt Romney is worth $250 million, he’s “loaned” his own campaign $9 million, and $25,000 is a “surge of support?”
link
jayackroyd @ 21
any ideas on how to change that?
I just contributed to Darcy. Hope she hits the 100K mark.
jayackroyd @ 21
Of course, or they would not have built the embassy and the permanent bases. Everything they say is complete BS. They must have had the plan to build that embassy for years. Who drew up the plans? Who ordered the plans to be drawn up? Who is the architect, and who paid him and when?
Loo Hoo. @ 25
Thanks, Loo Hoo!
25K is chump change to Romney. Guy makes me gag.
Mitt can be counted on for cheap, symbolic policies. And if he can screw taxpayers in the bargain, he will do that too.
Matt Yglesias via C&L:
Leila Fadel reported earlier this month for McClatchey that “U.S. officials say the number of civilian casualties in the Iraqi capital is down 50 percent. But U.S. officials declined to provide specific numbers, and statistics gathered by McClatchy Newspapers don’t support the claim.”
Does it seem plausible that the Department of Defense has really solid, favorable data about its own activities that it’s keeping hidden from public scrutiny? Not to me.
I’m sick of my party. The movers and shakers in the Democratic party along with the DLC are saying to Dems like me, you ‘play with the Democrat you have’. In this particular case, HRC.
selise @ 24
If Bush said today, “We will be out by Jan 1 ‘09″ I don’t think the military has a clue how to do it. We were able to get out of Vietnam because we were dealing with a stable govt who called the “shots”. We were able to extract our military because of the fiction of the “Paris Peace Accords”. I don’t think the Iraqis will be as cooperative as the North Vietnamese. A preview will be the British withdrawal from the South.
LS @ 26
Funny thing about the embassy..no more news..After the reports that it was so poorly constructed and toxic that it couldn’t be occupied..crickets…
Once the brits leave- the coalition of the willing will be two aussies with a barbie and a couple of eastern Europeans with a vodka franchise.
I think the DOD will just make up numbers… there is no way to independently verify, or disprove them.
We have never known how many non combatants have been killed…
They say millions are refugees… That is awful enough proof that the people are not fairing well over there.
Patch, Jane, Christy, and everyone else.
Ok. Fine, go give them your money (I’m going to), go make your phone calls (I do), but there has to be something else. It’s more than the FISA vote that was a big deal. It’s more than the MCA that was a big deal. We’re basically sitting on our hands (and I’m not talking to taking to the streets, because that’s about the worst thing we could do). But there has to be something we can do. Sort of a liberal Rovianism…..Something that people like me (and I don’t have that much time, but I have some) who are retired can do, more than sitting here and reading. What is my idea? I don’t have one. But we’re a big group. Please. Our country and our Constitution needs us. Some of it is money, yes. Some of it is phone calls and letters, yes. But some of it is something else, and one of you smart people out there, or maybe more than one, might have the answer. ‘Cause I sure don’t.
Wonder if the time will come when the various blogs will come out for a presidental candidate or preference.
rwcole @ 34
Don’t forget the American Blackwater arms dealers!
selise @ 24
It may not be us that does so, but the Iraqis themselves.
I’m in a pessimistic mood today. There’s so much perceived strategical interest in there with the oil and all, I can see every self serving politician being unable to get around that perceived fact.
Interesting article about pro-war propaganda:
http://www.opednews.com/articl…..izes_f.htm
Loo Hoo. @ 30
AP story:
Iraq is suffering about double the number of war-related deaths compared with last year — an average daily toll of 33 in 2006, and 62 so far this year.
- Nearly 1,000 more people have been killed in violence across Iraq in the first eight months of this year than in all of 2006. So far this year, about 14,800 people have died in war-related attacks and sectarian murders. AP reporting accounted for 13,811 deaths in 2006. The United Nations and other sources placed the 2006 toll far higher.
- Baghdad has gone from representing 76 percent of all civilian and police war-related deaths in Iraq in January to 52 percent in July, bringing it back to the same spot it was roughly a year ago.
- According to the Iraqi Red Crescent Organization, the number of displaced Iraqis has more than doubled since the start of the year, from 447,337 on Jan. 1 to 1.14 million on July31.
link
even dems in safe districts cant seem to find their moral compass…is the climate in DC that toxic? or is j edgar still operating from the grave? lol makes me wonder….
How long do you boil corn on the cob please?
Could someone explain this to me? We are all limited to giving some amount of money to a candidate. Offhand, I can’t recall if that amount is $2500 or $3000, but it’s something like that. How can politicians charge $10K per person for an event? This doesn’t make sense to me.
expensive caterers?
SanderO @ 43
depends on the freshness of the corn, sorry but it can be 10 minutes to 20 minutes.
SanderO @ 43
Till it floats, I think. Also, a really good way to make it is to take off the outer husk leaves (leaving the cob covered with some leaves); then place it on the rack in your oven at 350F for about 40 minutes. Yum.
SanderO @ 43
How long do you boil corn on the cob please?
4 minutes for one ear, add another minute per ear. This yields crisp corn when done. If ya like it mushy – I dunno.
Cooking Baking Ingredients Equipment Techniques Entertaining Holidays Ethnic Nutrition Safety Desserts Drinks History Science Kids
How to Prepare Corn on the Cob
How do I prepare corn on the cob?
There are several choices, and all of them simple and delicious. Probably the most common is to boil them. You can remove the leaves and the dastardly little silks from the ear first, or remove only the toughest outer leaves and boil them in the husks. The silks are more easily removed once the corn has been cooked. Put the ears in boiling water. How long you leave them there depends on your tastes. Some people boil them only long enough to warm the ears — a minute or so. Others like them more done, and leave them in the pot for 3/5/7 minutes or more.
juslin @ 42
J Edgar just had the drinking and screwing stuff on the Congress…The blackmail today is much more toxic..They follow the money..felonies are much more powerful than drinking and screwing.
SanderO @ 43
I was going to say five minutes, but that appears to be near the high end of the range:
http://www.ochef.com/96.htm
corn instuctions courtesy of Omaha Steaks.
cynic @ 36
Hey, cynic, you’re sounding, um, hopeful. Good to hear. I’m thinking. I’m thinking.
What I don’t understand is why Congress is giving away their power. They’re just handing it away on a silver platter. Too many bored millionaires?
SanderO @ 43
2-3 min
But if you soak it, husks and all, for a couple hours, you can toss it on the grill while you cook other things alongside. Turn it every do often, as the husks begin to char on the outside (don’t worry about the char – you throw it away) . . . yum!
If you put the cobs in cold water…the cobs are done when the water boils.
I like to dehusk, add a pat of butter, roll in tin foil and put on the grill over medium heat, 20 minutes, turning a couple of times to promote even cooking.
SanderO @ 43
Until it’s done. I usually just keep checking it. I’m doing white corn on the cob today. You?
steve@50
lmao! ya think?
SanderO @ 43
Joy of Cooking says to bring the water to boil, put the ears into the boiling water, cover the pan and remove from heat for five minutes. This has worked quite well for me.
SanderO @ 43
You don’t. Remove and save husks, remove silk, slather a little butter and a hint of paprika, rewrap in husks and throw them on your charcoal grill for 12 minutes.
mmmmmmmmm
Steve-AR, I didn’t read that the embassy was poorly constructed. The police academy, yes. Do you remember where you saw that?
SanderO @ 43
A trick my 86 yo mother showed me..wrap tightly in wax-paper and micro-wave 3-5 min(?)..doesn’t leach out the flavor..Also you can soak the un-shucked corn for 20′ and then grill for ~30′.
newtonusr @ 60
I’m gonna try that one! How to you rewrap the husks? Do you cut off the ends with the husk attached?
demi @ 53
Two ideas:
1) When you see a good post here that you’d like the media to pick up on and push, click the little “Spotlight” button at the end of that post. Follow the instructions, and you can send the post to all kinds of media outlets, along with your own little note. “Hey, reporter-person: Why don’t you ask our local Rep what s/he thinks about this?”
2) Contact your rep and Senators. Drop by their closest local office if you’re not around DC, and get to know their staff. Call them up, send them a fax, put a postcard in the mail, etc. They sit up and take notice when people take the time to contact them, though the “thanks for writing” emails/letters may be nothing more than a form.
Steve-AR @ 62
You can also wrap an ear in moistened paper towel and microwave on high for 4 minutes – that’s what I do…
Loo Hoo. @ 61
No, but I will try to find it. The story was tied into the reporting about the Kuwaiti construction company using “slave” labor.
(Another excuse for not bike riding; it’s 100, still better than last week)
LS @ 63
When you remove husks, remove as unit instead of stripping off in shreds, makes a “cup”. Tie with cotton string and rotate frequently.
I just got back from church, so I missed the morning shows.
How did the Edwards do?
For Edwards supporters who are not on his email list HERE is his latest message.
(really cute picture of the Rover).
I dropped it int o boiling water for 7 min and am eating it. Delish.
Thanks
Quick question about donation for Darcy? I don’t see her on Howies Blue America page.. why?
Darcy’s Blue America link is in the main post, or you can find it here.
Peterr @ 64
Eureka Springs @ 70
Here you go.
Pachacutec @ 71
Thanks Pach, On my way..)
And, you know, do you think it’s possible that Clinton could sit down with Peter Daou and ask him about what it was like in Beirut, and selise @ 24
I think we have to keep calling attention to it. LTEs. Blog posts. Question elected officials. I thought Rep. McNerny corroborated this view, by the way.
Maybe Jane could write to KO.
A growing blogospheric recognition of this would not go unnoticed, I don’t think. And I think Open Left’s Bush Dogs frame is a good area to make this point–finding primary opponents who will talk about this out loud.
As I said in my TPMCafe post, we also have to recognize what this entails. Stamping our feet and saying “Get out now!!” will get us dismissed as DFHs.
Here’s a little nugget about US Saudi relations these days:
http://thegate.nationaljournal…..ligh_1.php
cynic @ 36
I missed the discussion about not paying taxes – and I guess LHP said sure they’ll throw you in jail for it; but what if there was an organized non payment of taxes? What if hundreds of thousands of us did it? Or millions?
I’m going to go back and see what everyone said about this already.
demi @ 72
Went well.
But you might want to tell your pastor to be careful about “recycling” sermons.
At one of my former parishes, I had a great relationship with my 7th and 8th grade youth. They were old enough to carry on serious, theological conversations, and young enough to tell me EXACTLY what they thought of my sermons — good, bad, or otherwise. Very refreshing, as most adults, on the other hand, give the preacher a “good sermon” handshake at the door, and leave it at that.
The Netroots appeal for Darcy has brought out almost 2000 contributors, who’ve put in an average $35 each so far.
Reichert is looking to use Bush to get 50 GOP bigwigs to contribute $10,000.
How’s that for a snapshot of the political approach of the two parties?
Loo Hoo. @ 61
Dah..Dah!!!
WaPo story
Construction Woes Add to Fears at Embassy in Iraq
By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, July 5, 2007; A01
U.S. diplomats in Iraq, increasingly fearful over their personal safety after recent mortar attacks inside the Green Zone, are pointing to new delays and mistakes in the U.S. Embassy construction project in Baghdad as signs that their vulnerability could grow in the months ahead.
A toughly worded cable sent from the embassy to State Department headquarters on May 29 highlights a cascade of building and safety blunders in a new facility to house the security guards protecting the embassy. The guards’ base, which remains unopened today, is just a small part of a $592 million project to build the largest U.S. embassy in the world.
The main builder of the sprawling, 21-building embassy is First Kuwaiti General Trade and Contracting Co., a Middle Eastern firm that is already under Justice Department scrutiny over alleged labor abuses. First Kuwaiti also erected the guard base, prompting some State Department officials in Washington and Baghdad to worry that the problems exposed in the camp suggest trouble lurking ahead for the rest of the embassy complex.
The first signs of trouble, according to the cable, emerged when the kitchen staff tried to cook the inaugural meal in the new guard base on May 15. Some appliances did not work. Workers began to get electric shocks. Then a burning smell enveloped the kitchen as the wiring began to melt.
All the food from the old guard camp — a collection of tents — had been carted to the new facility, in the expectation that the 1,200 guards would begin moving in the next day. But according to the cable, the electrical meltdown was just the first problem in a series of construction mistakes that soon left the base uninhabitable, including wiring problems, fuel leaks and noxious fumes in the sleeping trailers.
“Poor quality construction . . . life safety issues . . . left [the embassy] with no recourse but to shut the camp down, in spite of the blistering heat in Baghdad,” the May 29 cable informed Washington…….
(much more)
link
Peterr @ 78
Working with middle school kids is one of the greatest reality checks of all times. I’ll never forget the time I tried coloring my own hair.
Peterr @ 79
How can he raise $10,000 per contributor without running afoul of FEC limits? Will only some of this go to his campaign and the rest to the local or national party? Surely $10,000 is well over the limit.
i dont want any more tax troubles carolyn urban lol but i’m interested in anything to stop all this madness
TeddySanFran @ 82
I asked that same question at #44 or thereabouts. No one seems to know. Quite a few of us know how to cook corn on the cob, though.
Peterr @ 78
Really good post at TPM, jayackroyd. One question, what does VSP stand for?
is the $10,000 bundled in such a way to skirt the laws? exactly how do they pull this off without fec getting involved? inquiring minds want to know…
TeddySanFran @ 82
The third, and perhaps most likely place, would be that some goes to his favorite political action committee, like the GOP Congressional Campaign Committee. Every member is supposed to raise a certain amount for the party’s CCC, to be spread around where it can “do the most good” (leaving that undefined for the moment). I can’t find anything substantive to spell out the fundraiser’s recipients, other than the general “Reichert campaign” in media reports.
Thanks, Steve-AR. Totally missed that story.
Peterr @ 79
I will laugh my ass off if he doesn’t raise much money!
Interesting:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..GaJAeMwfIE
Loo Hoo – VSP?
You just opened a can of worms, dear rabblerouser.
My answer would be Very Stupid President.
(just being silly, of course.)
I saw that article, Jane. Wondering if there was a handshake agreement when the dems agreed to fund the “surge”.
demi @ 85
I took your son’s comment to mean that he heard the pastor preach a sermon earlier this summer at church camp, and then repeat the same sermon as (if it were brand new) this morning.
Sad to say, there are some pastors who do that.
V.ery S.erious P.eople?
Steve-AR @ 32
See the post I linked at 75.
Yes, this is a much more difficult situation that vietnam because there is no sovereign government in Iraq. US departure will lead, in my opinion, to a lengthy civil war that leaves a situation like Somalia–where there was no government at all for a long stretch of time.
Nonetheless, it seems to me that the last three years have made the post-withdrawal scenario worse rather than better, and that the US should withdraw now. A way to start is to stop rotating soldiers in as they are rotated out.
But we have to get our elected officials to stop talking about “redeployment” and start talking about withdrawal. This means accetpting the reality that an independent Iraq is not going to grant basing privileges to the US–which is, I believe, at the heart of the Washington consensus. Keeping those bases, that is.
ok guys, this is off topic but I posted it over at c and l on topic, it is so enlightening just to post it, I have to post it here
something occurs to us in hindsight that is so brutally obvious, it is amazing nobody
1) ever thought of it when it happened
2) would bring it to bring it to the American people till now…unless I missed the point, I have never seen this point rasied;
when this country was under attack, the president first heard about the first attack, we know he was briefed that it was going to happen but let’s assume he is so pedestrian that he forgot the briefing…a stretch, but let’s give that benefit of doubt
then the second plane hits, the president is informed, while he is sitting in a class of children…he sits there, does nothing for minutes
then when he is finally escorted from the classroom, does he leave the building?
no
but wait a minute!
our country is under attack, we are being attacked by highjacked airplanes and the president knows this, the cia knows this
does the cia rush the president to a non disclosed location?
NO, THEY DO NOT, THEY LET THE PRESIDENT REMAIN AT THE VENUE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
in other words, THEY KNEW THERE WOULD NOT BE AN ATTACK WHERE THE PRESIDENT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE!!!!!!!!!!
either they KNEW the president was in no danger, OR THE CIA WAS REMISS IN THEIR DUTY!!!
it is BIZZARE nobody has posed this question and this line of reasoning to date
Loo Hoo. @ 93
He’ll probably do a Specter and weenie out, but the noises have to be giving Dubya the heebie jeebies.
Seems to me Warner is speaking very carefully so as not to set off the Toddler in Chief on another temper tantrum, but that he is going to enforce “actions have consequences”.
it seems timid, but it may be less so than we imagine.
Jane Hamsher @ 98
The noises have been going on for some time. I’m sure by now Bush just turns up the volume of his stereo when he hears them.
perris, I thought they had him flying the friendly skies…How long did he stay at the school?
Peterr @ 94
My brilliant father has some reworked themes. Just heard him run through a bondage vs freedom theme (Moses’ dilemma in the desert) which knocked my socks off.
seems one of the repugs has got to realize that the shrub is destroying our military and destroying the repig brand permanently and would just DO something…
but that may not be so…
Loo Hoo. @ 101
I believe he was still in that same school for at least 45 minutes!
Jane Hamsher @ 98
Baby steps. It wasn’t that long ago that they wouldn’t even make the noises.
And when it’s someone of substance in the party like Warner making the noises, instead of Arlen “can I keep my chairmanship, pretty please?” Specter . . . Bush probably winces every time the phone rings.
In view of HRC’s recent comment on ‘preparing for the next war’, we, in this house of two have decided there is a very real possiblity of leaving the Democratic party. We are almost at the point of concluding that our party no longer wants us. And unfortunately, the sense is we are not alone in feeling this way.
The WH asked Warner to “clarify” his statement, and he refused to do so saying that they could infer what they liked. If Warner is serious, this is big time.
perris @ 104
I believe there was an article written by one of his aids that tried to change the chain of events and time line but there was documentation and they couldn’t change the timeline
Peterr @ 94
My Pastor doesn’t do that. He’s a good one. My son doesn’t hear all of the sermons. He helps out in Sunday School, usually. Well, he spends every other weekend with his dad. No church. And, because the Mister and I attend the 8:15 (cause he does the organ at the early one, and I lead one Sunday a month at that one) AND the 10:30 services, sometimes I don’t wake the teenager up that early. Truth be told.
Does Congress reconvene Tuesday after Labor Day?
Did you say there’s an article about this at C&L perris?
And Boston, I want to hear more about the hair coloring!
OldCoastie @ 99
I also wonder if this is why Warner hasn’t announced his re-election plans for 2008. Undeclared, he can appear to be subject to the electorate, same as his colleagues whose seats are up. If he announces he isn’t running, his colleagues may ascribe his heroism in standing up to the Preznit as “easy” since he is no longer subject to the wrath of the base.
Recall that in bizarro-world (the GOP) the base still supports the Preznit.
shhhhh… dont bring up this again… we’ll be called conspiracy nuts but its still needs to be fully looked into ahemmm
Maybe Warner’s going to run for prez.
thanks for the replies, jayackroyd and Steve-AR.
are there any dems in congress that you think might be willing to have (or even start) a public conversation about these issues – not just what the washington concensus is, but also what are their assumptions and priorities?
the mcnerney conversation helped – but more for what wasn’t said than what was said.
TeddySanFran @ 112
Feels like he’s gonna step aside for Tom Davis.
perris @ 97
yes, that IS bizarre as are many other very strange things about 9/11.
don’t have any clue how to get anyone to even start seriously asking these questions.
someone earlier said all this war profiteering and war for oil stuff was considered tin foil hat stuff in 2002 but not now … maybe we’ll get 9/11 questions eventually.
sen warner will be called into the WH and given a strong what-if look for him to either retract or “clarify” his words … wait for it
Jane Hamsher @ 98
Loo Hoo. @ 111
Mr1775 had just had a heart attack with stent and as I walked into the hospital, my son said my hair was purple. The middle schoolers gasped and said my hair was so black!!!!
Pachacutec: This is so bizare because I just finished watching the Lives of Others right this minute. It was fantastic. I was on the edge of my seat and the ending was just so great. I was going to come on right now and recommend it.
Loo Hoo. @ 107
sounds serious … or it’s very very serious kabuki. so i’m afraid to even look.
wangdangdoodle @ 110
Yes. Though Tuesday may be a light day due to member travel.
perris @ 108
here’s an account;
this is an excellant link titled “an interesitd day”
ccmask @ 121
We watched it last night. Before the denoument, I could not sit on the sofa and kept pacing back and forth, making my partner rather nervous.
selise @ 115
I thought the McNerny visit demonstrated how unwilling they are to talk about the substance of their thinking.
Jan Schakowski is clearly someone who will speak out. I’m trying to set up a meeting with my congresswoman’s local staffer to talk about this. Worst case, I’ll buttonhole her in the starbucks we both go to.
LS @ 26
They have a desire to stay, but not a plan to stay. Short of putting in 200,000 more troops, there is no plan. Hope is not a plan. The denial seems deeper in Washington than in the rest of the country, where they can see their boys and girls coming home in boxes.
jayackroyd @ 96
I agree..we can draw down to some number of troops..after that it will depend on whether the Iraqis will let us leave. The total number to be removed is probably about the same as in Vietnam 400,000 plus, and over two lane roads. I suspect there are people in Iraq who want revenge and others who would like to see massed civilian casualties caused by the US. If we have to fight our way out of Iraq, it will require combat air and armor using anti-personnel munitions.
Loo Hoo. @ 111
no, I said I posted a response to a c and l lead, my resonse was on topic, and as I wrote it it seemed to fly off my fingers in an epiphame
anyway, I did a google and there are articles that raise the question, for instance here
an interesting day
perris @ 124
it’s sticking in my head that it was Fleischer that “changed” the public timeline … but it’s just a funny feeling.
Peterr @ 123
Thanks, Peterr. I’m hoping for fireworks after that! Although experience tells me not to hold my breath…
Warner’s been talking for a long time about his “downbeat” assessments on Iraq.
October 2006
November 2005
fdl reader @ 130
yes, I have that memory too, fleicher changed the timeline to my memory till they found out there was documentations
Actually, Loo Hoo, someone else said, “Who are you and what have you done with Boston1775?”
Every six weeks, Andrea takes care of me.
Ack. I just slipped my leash, broke away from the mother-of-all-handymen-projects. I wonder how long it will be before they realize I left them in their pile of 2×4’s…
So…how long before Rep. Schakowsky is here to speak with us FirePups? We should have made a point of seeing her at YearlyKos, while we were on her turf — I feel guilty about that.
sorry loo hoo. Missed your question earlier:
Very Serious People. These are the opposites of the Dirty Fucking Hippies.
You’ll frequently see (although i think less frequently going forward) foreign policy experts describe what “serious” people think about a situation. Glenn Greenwald has pointed out that being “serious” means that you consider a military soluton to always be on the table.
When the troop drawdown starts (or if?), I worry about the last ones out. Who will have their backs?
I recommend watching Webb on This Week. Just watched the clip on the show’s internet site. I think Webb got all the big points in. He could interweave the tactical and strategic picture, answer the usual talking points effectively, and had positive and constructive suggestions I think normal thinking people would understand and find reasonable. He gets a Dodd award for stating the case, in my book.
To bad Dems (and other war opponents) were not talking like this for last four years.
Cornyn was blowing smoke. Problem is, how many people who were trusting for first three years, will know he is blowing smoke? Will know all his whole lines are BS? For instance, Cornyn talked aobut building democracy up from the villages.
Well, yeah, I guess. The US had a chance to do that during the first year of the occupation. Instead they were trying to rig a series of half-baked seat-of-pants and BS schemes to jigger up a puppet government. So now is a little late, huh? Especially after Sistani forced the US’s hand on elections.
If Demcrates had called BS on all the fraud from the beginning, Cornyn’s smoke would have been apparent years ago.
I’ve read polls that not only are fervent and impatient anti-war faction in US getting cynical about Democrats, Iraqis are too. I read a poll (on Juan Cole?) that said most Iraqis think Democrats in on the scam with Bush now, because of their reluctance to force the issue.
With this stuff, some things cannot be but back in the bottle, the spilt milk is spilt, etc. Used to think nothing could be done at all until 2009, even if Bush came to his senses, becaue Bush Jr’s cred in ME irreversibly damaaged. Would be bad if Democrats cred irreversibly damaged before they even took office.
Baird’s my rep, and I’m going to try to make it to his town meeting in Vancouver tomorrow night. Since he works for me(!), I’m not going to let him forget it. What’s the best question I should ask him, oh wise souls of the Lake? Thanks in advance!
And yes, The Lives of Others is freakishly good.
Wish I had some fresh corn…Blackberries will have to do.
jayackroyd @ 136
And impeachment off the table.
jayackroyd @ 126
wrt mcnerney – exactly, but he’s a freshman still feeling his way into a new job… so i understand (even if i don’t like it) that he wouldn’t yet be ready to speak out (a reason to keep the communication open, imo). glad to hear about schakowski. i hope (beg?) you will try to keep us all informed of what you learn. thanks again… you’re postings have really helped me (even if i still live in confusion land trying to wrap my head around it) – especially your TPMcafe post (and your comments in the thread)… and yes, dear firepups, that was a hint to anyone who hasn’t yet read it. *g*
For the record I know Brian and his wife. He is an intelligent, caring, politically aware Democrat. Can we please not demonize people without finding out why they are saying the things they are?
Brian is not the new Lieberman. He has a different view on Iraq, and I for one am ready to hear what he has to say.
Might we invite him to talk with us on blue america?
If the intent is to turn him into the new evil target, I have a serious problem with that. Please ask him to come and talk with us. Otherwise we really are shooting at our own people. I have some insight into his motivations and goals. If we are intent on taking down such a man then we are really losing something valuable.
Pachacutec @ 125
I liked this part of the movie:
Do you know what Lenin said about Beethoven’s Appasionata?
If I keep listening to it, I won’t finish the Revolution.
…and it reminded me so much of the situation we find ourselves in today. If you ask this administration how many Iraqi civilians have died since the US arrival, they cannot tell you. But no doubt, their lackeys will make a note of who asked the question.
is this movie on dvd – the web – cable – what?
Knut @127
They have a desire to stay, but not a plan to stay
Yes, that’s exactly right. They’re like Mr Micawber, waiting for something to turn up. That’s why we get this string of Friedman Units. Next one starts on September 15th unless we can find a way to force the Serious People to start discussing the occupation, how they expect an indefinite occupation to work and whether they are going to establish shi-ite puppets or Sunni puppets.
This is one reason they won’t talk about the occupation. An actually representative government in Iraq would not countenance a US military base in Iraq, constructed to support US policies in support of Israel and in opposition to Iran.
They can’t have both the occupation and democracy. So they talk about neither. Except when they are passing legislation dictating what legislation the iraqi parliament must pass.
There is this whole, longstanding Very Serious Narrative about the US spreading freedom that is pretty much a lie. And there is this longstanding Very Serious concern about US VItal Interess. These two intersect here, showing how fundamentally dishonest both of these narratives are. But they are the narrative of our Very Serious Foreign Policy Experts.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 106
Kiddo, Sad to say I feel the same. I’m mad and I’m not gonna take it anymore.
I value your and Lahoma’s opinion. I’m in mourning for my social contract. Ths Constitution
Would it be fair to say the moves to replace Maliki are American imperialist moves not Democracy in action in Iraq?
egregious @ 142
I’m hoping he will use his brain, and so the post is titled the way it is, and tries to help him with his homework, even providing a tutor.
But he’s doing damage, running his mouth, and he doesn’t get a pass for that.
selise @ 115
It’s a tough problem for Democrats..anything they say, no matter how well intentioned is basically bullshit. I don’t think any Dem and few if any Congressional Republicans have been given the “true picture” of the Iraq situation. Until we retake the government and really find out what the situation is, talking about any specific “what I will do” is irresponsible. A good example is Bill’s “gays in the military” statement at Harvard(?). A good intention, spoken in ignorance that had bad consequences.
Juslin.. the movie is 15.00 used on Amazon :(
FYI, Book salon is upstairs
juslin: dvd.
wesgpc @ 138
First, there was never a plan for a representative government. That was propaganda. The occupation was the plan (remember Cheney saying in 2003 that the troop levels would be drawn down to 50,000? That was the plan then, and is still the plan.) You should also recall that the only reason actual elections were held is because al Sistani threatened to unleash his followers.
Second, I think the Iraqis are right. I do think the democrats are part of the Washington Consensus of permanent occupation. See the link in comment 75 for the details as to why I think so, if you are interested.
There is a very fundamental disconnect between our elected officials in washington and their constituents on this issue. that’s why nobody will speak out clearly for what they support. It’s why no presidential candidate is simply for withdrawal, why you read “redeployment” and “force protection” and “border security.”
juslin @ 144
Netflix. It is with Martina Gedieck who is a great actress (best movie Mostly Martha).
If you don’t have Netflix, I think you can get a free trial. And right now it is $15.99 a month for as many movies as you can see and return for that price. And, with the subscription, you also get 18 hours on Instant Viewing right off the website each month. They have a great library of Documentaries too.
Steve-AR @ 149
but that leaves us in a catch-22. how are we to know who to support (in order to “take back our government”) if answering “what I will do” is irresponsible?
Pachacutec @ 148
It might be productive for him to come to FDL for a live chat to hear our point of view.
Pach: Where is the Pay Pal link for Darcy?
ccmask @ 156
At the top in his article. Where it says Darcy $5.
Warner says—”Well if five thousand is too much- maybe he can withdraw fourteen payclerks and a couple-a potato machines.
I have worked very hard to support Webb and Baird. To watch them attacked here is painful. These are men who are far ahead of their districts. We need to reward the increment. Where there is progress, we need to chime in and say yes, you’re not perfect but you are so much better than what was there before.
McNerney too.
But if we are just going to say well you aren’t Prince Charming and so to hell with you, I cannot be part of that.
jayackroyd (and other firepups) if you are still around, you might find this excellent podcast of george kenney interviewing roger morris useful.
lots of interesting insights into foreign policy (both neocon and dems).
I gave to Darcy and as soon as I pay off my dental bill I’ll help more Pach. Sorry it couldn’t be more right now.
egregious says: August 26th, 2007 at 1:57 pm:
re Baird
I’ll listen to him. Can you fill us in a little on his thinking?
—-
jayackroyd says: August 26th, 2007 at 2:05 pm:
You might be right about the establishment Dems. I read Feinstein is now talking coup-plotter nonsense about replaceing Maliki. That is just what we need now, both parties acting like this is some game of Risk. That is why need a big push to get some new progressives in Congress next year. Because, I am afraid you are right and we have a bipartisan political establishment mentality that is fundamentally dishonest, immoral, and unworkable, and work of all, will grab at any last opportunity to create a total disaster.
egregious @ 159 –
do virginians support the recent fisa legislation?
ok and lahoma at 106-”
In view of HRC’s recent comment on ‘preparing for the next war’, we, in this house of two have decided there is a very real possiblity of leaving the Democratic party. We are almost at the point of concluding that our party no longer wants us. And unfortunately, the sense is we are not alone in feeling this way.”
ok, you’re a math teacher………how many times do the kids want the answer without doing the progression of pages of steps to get the answer? learning each step and then using it later when they move up to more complicated theorums? each lesson a new step to handling the next chapter’s problems……..change takes time……progression toward a goal takes time……..
if you can’t see the changes that have happened and are still happening, i don’t know what to tell ya…i’m thinkin’ since the 80’s…or maybe i haven’t been around long enough to see the rising of hope and repeated defeats, dunno…….but i feel things are going in a good direction, and there’s plenty of people i feel are able to carry the ball……..so, for now, i’m willin’ to let them.
instead of giving up, why not support the ones that ARE doing it……..and change things from within……you oughtta know, that is the only way change comes, one at a time…….just like the kids you help, you help them change, hands on…….is the democratic party gonna change any other way? nope…….so? you don’t give up…..just like you don’t give up on your kids.
After everything that’s gone on I’m more than jaded, but I have to say this Iraq coup stuff with pr firms and all has got me really spooked. This is so blatant and so imperialistic. I really didn’t see this coming. Maybe behind the scenes … not sure what that would look like … but surely not as a “product launch.” It’s really beyond bizarre.
selise @ 154
It is and it isn’t..in any race there is likely to be a R and a D; hold you nose if necessary and vote for the D. If there is a primary choice with D’s support the most socially progressive.
As far as Iraq goes, I don’t think who is the Democratic President will make much difference. The Republican Party has put us in a box and the war is going to end on it’s own terms now..I don’t think a lot of choices are left to us or the President.
jayt @ 65
Two minutes for one ear. Microwave isn’t terribly efficient for lots of corn, but does a nice job on one or two. Four minutes seems too long for young fresh corn…
Who is attacking Webb?
And I think only a minority wrote McNerney off. There were a lot of pissed off impatient disillusioned and frustrated people. But I don’t think the whole place is attacking him.
Re any bipartisan establishment consensus to for US to stay in Iraq and try to control things… it is madness in my view. Only way to head that madness off is aggressively advocating multilateral dipolamtic action on Iraq.
Pooh-bahs will ridicule, especially on TV. But it seems impossible only because Cheney and Bush have doen every single thing they can think of to make it seem impossible for the last 6.5 years. Talking like Webb is the way to head it off. And if Webb is running a scam, so what? You work with what you have, and if all we have is people saying the right thing, that is where you start. He is saying the right things in my view, and it is important to get the idea out there, since it about the ratest thing I see discussed in the media.
I don’t think any Dem and few if any Congressional Republicans have been given the “true picture” of the Iraq situation.
Steve, I disagree here. I think they have a very clear picture–that there is no government there, and that the US will be there providing a government and a national defense for the next decade or more.
I think any answer other than the following is BS:
“The objective was a reliable client state in Iraq. That objective clearly cannot be attained. The backup objective is to minimize further damage to Iraq.”
And then you say, “Therefore, the US needs to engage in an orderly withdrawal.”
or you say
“The US must remain as an occupying power until there is a stable government. An unspeakable conflagration would follow a withdrawal until there is a stable government”
That’s really what the debate is about, at this point. Because the latter position is the closer to the original objective and may, for many Serious People, be the very same thing as the original objective, the consensus has formed around indefiinite occupation.
The trouble is that voters prefer the withdrawal choice. Hence, McNerny refuses to provide substantive answers to questions.
‘or you say
“The US must remain as an occupying power until there is a stable government. An unspeakable conflagration would follow a withdrawal until there is a stable government” ‘
But that cannot happen over the long term unless we have a draft. And it is a long term loser approach to sovling national security problems.
So, withdraw, and start the multilateral action asap.
Same conclusion either way.
Look. I know Brian and I know why he is involved in politics. If we are declaring him the newest up to the minute Evil One then we are making a huge mistake.
I know what his motivations are and if he has a different view on Iraq than I do then I am willing to hear what he has to say.
Brian is NOT the new Lieberman. You guys want to find people to attack that’s great but this is not the one.
He is a man of courage. I trust and support him. The effort to turn him into the latest target for pot shots is hideous. Please. We are shooting at our own best allies here.
If the goal is to restore constitutional government and bring the war in Iraq to a peaceful end, we have no better ally than Baird. If he has a different way to bring the Iraq situation to a peaceful end, then for God’s sake let’s listen to him. Because a lot of people are dying while we are being pure with our politics.
egregious @ 171
i haven’t seen anything like that – did i miss something?
egregious–
The trouble is that Iraq is not like most issues. There isn’t some middle ground that’s acceptable. There’s no “don’t ask, don’t tell” compromise. Either the US is fully committed to establishing a stable state in Iraq, or it isn’t. If it isn’t, it’s not a question of leaving X number of soldiers there as a compromise. If not (and US is not committed to that nation-building exercise–it would take a draft and five years at a minimum), then the right thing to do for both countries is to withdraw.
On the question of beating our elected officials up on this issue, I really take exception to the idea that it is unreasonable to ask them to explain their positions on important issues. We should be polite and respectful (as I think we should be among ourselves), but there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking tough questions of our public servants. In this case, what makes the questions “tough” is that McNerny knows that we, and a majority of the American people won’t like the answer.
I agree..when I say “true picture” I was thinking of the logistics and not the political picture. The war is going to end on it’s own terms and by the time a Democrat is in the WH, I think the options are going to be very limited. I don’t think a residual force is likely to be an option either.
and ok kiddo-i really think that a lot of people are letting their frustrations over republican ‘blather’ affect them………fear is a funny foe……..makes your mind warp. that’s just what they know how to do, and it appears to be working………
people want to be in the ‘blue skies smilin’ at me’ stage, and we aren’t……it’s funny to me the difference between people who pull away or come together in adversity…….or pull apart…….it’s been interesting reading the threads lately………i’m for the come together……
egregious @ 171
I am also not happy with attacking Dems, even the Nelsons are occasionally useful. For me the only exception if Chris Carney. The Iraq war is horrible but it is a symptom and so is Bush. Don’t confuse the symptoms with the disease; and the disease is the Republican Party. The only cure is the political destruction of the Republican Party.
egregious @ 171
Nobody is declaring him the Evil One.
Fine. What does he have to say? I haven’t heard anything beyond “Let’s give it another Friedman Unit and then take a look.” We’ve been doing that for some time now and it hasn’t worked out.
The goal of bringing the war to a peaceful end is unattainable, IMO. I have heard nothing from him (or anybody) that sounds like it comes within a 1 in a 1000 chance of ending the occupation peacefully. His heart may be in the right place, but unless he has some sound idea that nobody else has thought of, all he is doing is prolonging the agony, and, IMO, making it worse.
Congress’ popularity is under 20% now. Why? Because people like Reps. Baird and McNerny are not facing facts. If you know Rep Baird, could you please convey to him that there is no good course out. The occupation has failed. The US will only have access to those bases for as long as it maintains its presence by force.
Politically speaking, this is also frightfully shortsighted. The Democrats are well on their way to sharing ownership of this war in the eyes of the public. And we may see some brutal primary battles if the Democrats continue to ignore the clear mandate of the American people.
egregious-
please don’t take this the wrong way……i haven’t read the whole thread here, just got back, but read a few of the comments, and don’t want to get in the middle, but i beg of you, use caution here…….
it appears that you haven’t read or heard brian’s comments since he’s been back from iraq…….has been all over, even on npr…i won’t interpret them for you,you can hear and read them on your own, but they were upsetting……and widely quoted by republicans as fuel for fodder for staying in iraq…….he is their new talking points…even what he posted on his website they were using….he should have known better than to do that, should have measured his words more carefully…….tactically it was suicidal for anyone trying to end this war……
i don’t agree with bashing, but if what he said is true, it’s a big deal.
brian baird on cnn.
and from the wapo:
my bold
hang in there, eg, the trick is to find out the closest thing to the full truth.
we’re here.
Boston1775 @ 180
amen. and people can be upset with something someone has done without thinking they are evil or the enemy. if that wasn’t the case there would be no long term friendships or even families.
egregious @ 142
Then give him a call and tell him to stop acting like a tool for the GOP. If he wants to come on FDL and defend his position, we’ll be happy to have him. But there are too many people dying in Iraq each day the war is dragged out to be treating him — or anyone else actively involved in perpetuating it, however well intentioned — with kid gloves.
That pretty well sums it up. It is way past time to be thoughtful and politically cute. Every Dem should be voting for time-lines and de-funding. It is a necessary political statement. Nothing Congress can do is going to end it before Bush leaves office…They should be concentrating on preventing the Iran war.
Steve-AR @ 183
and instead we get h.con.r.21 and s.amdt.2071
selise @ 184
exactly..when/if the Republican Party drops the first bomb on Iran, this country is going over the economic and political cliff.
selise @ 184
selise, Have I told you lately that I blog love you..)
and that goes for (((egregious))) too.
egregious @ 171
egregious – Your viewpoint on Brian Baird captures in a nutshell the difference in perspective between the Insiders and the Outsiders, it seems to me.
The reason you give for defending Baird is because you are personally acquainted with him (and therefore know his motives), unlike the rest of us. That defines the difference between those of us watching only the public actions of our representatives and those, like their colleagues in Congress and their campaign fundraisers, who get to watch our representatives in action in private one-on-one sessions.
We cannot, as informed and vigilant citizens, simply accept the word of their friends and colleagues about our representatives when contradictory evidence is publicly available – McNerney defended and praised Baird as well. We aren’t given personal access to our representatives, by and large, and must use our best judgement based on our own observations of their (carefully-scripted) public words and actions. Thus the criticisms of Baird (and of Webb’s FISA vote). It doesn’t mean your perspective isn’t also valuable – but when a private perspective clashes with the public perspective, we either trust your account instead of ‘our lying eyes,’ or we make up our own minds based on all available evidence. And, these days especially, we really need to get beyond “trust” with regard to the hidden motives of our public servants.
I think your reaction to the criticism of Baird mirrors the reactions of many in Congress to the blogs (the people) in general – how dare they criticize so and so – who do they think they are – they don’t even know the guy. We had dinner with him last night and know that he’s actually a great guy, and so is his wife, etc., etc. That’s part of the hidden price of becoming an ‘insider’ – if one is not careful to guard against it – and why the system tends to co-opt reporters and others who socialize with those who are sent to Washington to serve the public (and then somehow manage to fail in that duty).
This difference in perspective is the great divide that we’re constantly struggling to overcome between the people in the home districts and our federal representatives in the insular world of the D.C. Inner Circle. I’m not asking you to change your view of Baird. But we either need to be convinced of his integrity, as you are, by Baird’s own public words or actions, or his supporters need to at least understand why we cannot calmly view his public actions in the way that those who personally know him do.
From what I have been able to gather from foreign publications, this country at some point in the future may face a difficult time in procuring oil to keep our economy and country running. This just maybe, and maybe one of the reasons why the Dems. are having second thoughts at ending the war without any signs of some stability and gurantees of future oil supplies. This is by no mean any reason to keep the current bloodshed going, but the Dem leadership should provide the country with a valid reason for their current hesitnace at ending the war, the time for pussyfooting around the matter should end.
Eureka Springs @ 186
Thanks. Need that.
Baird is one of the good guys. I hate this effort to make him evil. He is way ahead of HIS DISTRICT. He wants to do the right thing. If we are too pure we will spend the rest of our years nodding in the nursing home about how we were right and we should have won.
I would prefer that we ACTUALLY WIN with the very human and courageous people now and soon in Congress.
Please let’s not shoot at our own troops
Eureka Springs @ 186 and egregious @ 189 –
time for a group hug! (((firepups!)))
Congrats to Georgia at the LLWS, walk-off homer in the Eighth!!!!
USA
pow wow @ 187
We can be pure, or we can make progress against those who will steal our country forever and not give it back.
Your choice.
I have made my choice, to work with those imperfect humans who will try to make progress as they can. You want to declare them impure fine, but then don’t complain that no one tried.
Good people are here pushing back against a truly, truly evil thing. If you will be with us thank you and if you will kill the tender shoots of reason and democracy so be it. I am on the firing line here. I am here at risk to my mental health, to my political effectiveness, to the safety of my family. You want to be pure that’s your privilege. But some of us are on the edge.
Don’t forget who the enemy is. Ideological purity will be the ticket for a nice rest in a KBR camp.
egregious, you need to listen here, girl, really……you’re getting emotional, and emotion has nothing to do with it…….please read my 178 and jane’s 182………..and selise posted a few links right after my comment that you need to listen to.
this has to do with a conscious decision that baird made……..that did irreparable harm…….it is a serious thing……..come on, now……you have a logic-ruled brain…….grab ahold of this egregious, it’s a big deal……i’m tryin’ to help…….read up on it and listen to the videos, he did a biggie…….i’m not one to call people out unless it was ‘egregious’……it was…..i hate to tell you that, but it was…….this was one of the biggest give-overs to the republicans in years……that’s a fact…….it’s going to do a lot of damage, already has……please read his quote and watch the videos on it…..it was even on npr……
i was floored when i heard him, absolutely floored……
meanwhile-
((((egregious))))
and eureka, although i usually wouldn’t admit this out loud…..i want a hug for trying to help, too…….selise got one.
my first post to egregious was hard, i don’t normally get in it…..
i used to say to my former husband when i was at my wit’s end-just because you keep dropping shit piles in front of me doesn’t mean i have to step in them……….shocked him because i never would cuss, hardly, but when i did, i was good at it.
(((dmac)))
used the group hug thing so that no one would feel left out. guess it didn’t work that way. :(
you’re doing a great job – being supportive and staying connected while not backing down. it’s hard to have strong disagreements and do that.
I feel like this bash Baird thing is the man who comes home from an angry day at work and beats up his wife, because she is the nearest available target. And kicks the dog too.
There are other worse Dems and far worse Repubs who are the legitimate targets of our anger. Please let’s not hurt our own people.
dmac
moi? lol
Steve-AR @ 194
cbl and I have reserved front row seats in the camp. But for now I am trying to push back against the evil. You want to take out the few people who are our allies, based on purity? That makes my work all the more difficult. I will persevere but please know for some of us this is not a pleasant carefree intellectual exercise. Some of us have recently lost a lot in order to go this direction and still have a lot to lose. There is a fault line rather like earthquake fault lines which is ripping people apart at great cost and still some of us persevere. I work with the people I think can help us transition to the next safe political space. For me that includes Webb and Baird. If you guys want to throw them into the bin of All Things Evil fine but that is not where I am. I will work with those who are trying to turn things around in this near fascist state and if you are with me great and if you are not I am sorry and hope that what I am doing is enough. We are losing people here. And I might be the next one that you lose.
(((((dmac)))))
HA!
Hoyer: Well for Hoyer Iraq is old news — he’s sown up the pro-war wing in the Democratic Party so he doesn’t have to worry about votes on withdrawal or funding… (so MoveOn get a clue and stop duping us!).
No, the big honcho is onto his new mission with his republican buddies — he’s onto IRAN… yes folks Iran…
We don’t want Iran mucking up Israel’s and a HRC administration’s corporate oil deals.
Pelosi: Well you can forget about Impeachment. I mean what’s the deal with having HRC’s campaign’s spokesman and corporate power broker Howard Wolfsen’s wife as her Chief of Staff — a long time buddy or mole?
From my reading (I could be wrong) she was an NY arts administrator in 2002 and then by poof raises to the giddy political heights of Chief of Staff for the House Majority Leader — wow! just wow!
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f…..A9649C8B63
Wondering if Howard Wolfsen and Terri Cullough are our new Carville and Matalin… duo
Nah! the DLC isn’t running the show…
egregious @ 197 –
isn’t it possible to to be upset when he says he will not longer support legislation that calls for a binding troop withdrawal timeline AND to know that there are others who are far worse?
the two are not mutually exclusive.
FYI, Olbermann on NBC now.
NBC affiliate in Philadelphia (WCAU) not carrying Countdown.
egregious at 198 says-”dmac egregious, you need to listen here, girl, really……you’re getting emotional
moi? lol”
‘grege, i’ll tell ya something my best friend told me………we are not responsible for other people’s choices.
even when it’s someone we care about.
quit taking responsibility for other people’s choices.
and yeah, you’re emotional, but you also have the genius logic brain……..comes with being bipolar……probably shouldn’t say this, but i’m manic bipolar, with the meltdown psychotic break under my belt a few years ago to prove it……just means that we see around corners….use that bipolar intellect instead of the emotion….
also means we give a wide berth of forgiveness to people…….cuz we understand…….but we can’t be responsible for other people’s choices……….read up on what baird said, darlin, it’ll curl your hair……..
Eureka Springs @ 203
thank you! i don’t have cable, so this is my first chance to see more than clips posted at c&l.
eureka at 200
thanks, seems kinda cheesy to ask for it, but i wanted to be included, since i stuck my neck out………….
thanks……..((((eureka of the springs))))
twolf1 @ 204
Hawaii, isn’t either, MTP is airing here, followed by the NFL game itself! :-(
selise, It’s the exact same format as the regular countown on MSNBC.
FYI, Jane is upstairs
selise-”((dmac)))
used the group hug thing so that no one would feel left out. guess it didn’t work that way. :(
you’re doing a great job – being supportive and staying connected while not backing down. it’s hard to have strong disagreements and do that.”
thanks……i come from a family where no matter what, you are loved…….every one of us an individual, every one of us valid, every one of us with our own voice, every one of us loved for it.
but it’s hard when you feel one way, but you’re gonna have to use your brain and take in information that will affect how you feel about someone……..is difficult…….that’s why i stepped in, cuz i understand that…….have had to do it on a large scale a few times.
but you can disagree and still love, that’s what my family taught me, and baird, well, egregious will have to make her own peace with that.and she will. she’s no bull shitter.
i guess the moral of all i am saying about family, and facts, is, the truth rules, always……..and you have to face it, and when you do, life is good even when it’s hard…….cuz you have that to stand on…..and there are certain truths that need to be faced with baird.
i felt the group hug, but wanted an extra one……cuz i don’t normally get in it….well, i did for raven one day when i could tell he was exasperated……….thanks……((((selise))))
This “purity” meme is a right wing meme. It’s also a straw man.
I didn’t say Baird has to agree with me on every vote.
I did not even call him evil, pace the comment.
I do say now, though I did not in the post, that when he behaves in a way the prolongs the occupation, undermines other Democrats and gives support to the Bush agenda, then he opens himself to justified criticism.
dmac @ 211
amen.
And exactly how do I “choose” and correctly identify, egregious, between simply “imperfect humans” and “those who will steal our country forever and not give it back?” That’s what I tried to point out above: we, as constituents, desperately need to accurately make just that vital distinction in order to know whom to oppose and whom to support for federal office.
You have the luxury of personal knowledge of Baird to buttress your support of his incumbency. We do not. [I do not know which side of this divide Brian Baird falls on. I’m reserving judgement.]
So castigating us as foolish advocates of “purity” of some sort in those who represent us [too “purely” in favor of our Constitution perhaps?] because we are simply trying to make exactly the same determination that you have already made about Baird (through public analysis rather than through the personal interaction you had with Baird) seems to be a wildly-off-the-mark accusation about our efforts here.
egregious-this isn’t the whole song, i wish you could hear the whole song…….everybody’s cryin’ mercy, old bonnie raitt, written by mose allison……
http://youtube.com/watch?v=y8a91Hrv1us
i used to listen to this song over and over again when i had things to face that were hard………back in the days when i was installing telephones……boy, do i have some stories…….
everybody’s cryin’ mercy, when they don’t know the meanin’ of the word………it’s about keeping your word…….and those who don’t-cry mercy, when you’re the one struggling with what they did, needing the mercy……i think it applies here.
if someone finds an entire version of this, please post it……i haven’t been able to find one.
pow wow @ 187
You’ll note that this was McNerny’s position as well. He knows his republican colleagues, and in the cloakroom they express their dismay at the awful situation in Iraq. So, because he knows, personally, that their hearts are in the right place, he doesn’t want to pressure them.
Leaving aside all the obvious comments we can make about the inability of Democrats to play hardball, this is decidedly not the way to go about making policy.
This kind of collegiality makes sense in most political circumstances, but not when you are talking about the use of military force. The idea that we should worry about the feelings of Jerry’s colleagues more than we should worry about the deaths of American soldiers and innocent Iraqis is pretty damned appalling.
pow wow @ 214
I’m saying that there are those of us who have put everything on the line to push things forward in an imperfect political world and it’s pretty easy to be an armchair quarterback but not so pleasant to suffer the consequences. I’m kind of hurting right now from those consequences so you will excuse me if I don’t think that political purity is the holy grail. You want to make a difference in Washington? Then deal with the imperfect human beings who are there and those of us who know and work with them. Make them into the evil enemy, that’s shooting our own. Not helpful. We may yet go down, but please don’t accelerate the process by taking down very good people who want to make things better here.
Come over to my house. My well taps the fossil water level 200 feet below the Potomac; that water hasn’t been touched in 500,000 years.
You’ll note that this was McNerny’s position as well. He knows his republican colleagues, and in the cloakroom they express their dismay at the awful situation in Iraq. So, because he knows, personally, that their hearts are in the right place, he doesn’t want to pressure them.
=====================
Or could there be some MAJOR DLC party disclipline/threats/career bribes going on?
Have a read of Glenn Greenwald and then explain to me what HRC’s Feingold-Reid and supplemental vote was about…
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
argh Democrats are really making me sick at the moment.
The “new” Iraq is the “old” Afghanistan, and BushCo has turned the United States into the “old” Soviets, who back in the 1980s sent men and machines into Afghanistan to prop up a Soviet puppet government in Kabul.
And I’m certain the “old” Soviets had numerous “surges” in Afghanistan in an attempt to give their Kabul puppet government breathing space, countless “surges” spanning almost the entire decade of the 1980s, costing the “old” Soviet military forces thousands in casualties while stuck in the Afghani quagmire.
So, the Bush administration has gotten us stuck in a similar quagmire in Iraq, repeating the same mistakes the “old” Soviets made in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Will the outcome be similar?
The similarities between Afghanistan of the 1980s and the post-Saddam Hussein Iraq of today are striking. Warlords. Tribal enmity. Sectarian butchery. The increasing influence of sharia-spouting religious sects, with their murderous followers enforcing sharia, purging Iraq of any secular freedom. “Players” from outside Iraq financing and arming groups inside Iraq. Iraq today sounds an awful lot like Afghanistan twenty years ago, with the Bush mal-administration having taken the place of the “old” Soviet mal-administration, with Iraq having replaced Afghanistan as the quagmire to end all quagmires.
The question is, though, will Bush’s misadventure in Iraq shatter the United States just as the “old” Soviet Union’s misadventure in Aghanistan led to the break-up of the Soviet Union almost twenty years ago?
Elitist conservative warmongers, whether neo-con Republicans or neo-con Communists, always seem to be good at destroying things, as they embark on one imperialistic conquest after another, don’t they?
The United States of America will be lucky to survive the eight years of the Bush administration, the most lying and thieving administration in American history.
Speaking as someone who is represented by both Jan Schakowsky and Barack Obama, I can say without a doubt that Schakowsky rocks and Obama doesn’t.
LS @ 26
Wouldn’t it be marvelous to track down that information? Somehow I’d bet good money it was all in place before Bush took office in 2001.
egregious @ 159
Right!
Don’t let Perfect be the enemy of the Good.
Cujo359 @ 44
The personal contribution limit is IIRC $4200. Those events are “party events” where you give money to the National Committees…which I believe is “unlimited”. In reality, then, you can give vast amounts to campaigns…if one is willing to trust the Party to funnel your contributions “correctly”.
Another point…you can give as much as you want to PAC’s…and these can focus the contributions to candidates as well…thus you could give $4200 to the candidate directly (per year), then give X amount to the DNC (which could funnel, say $25,000 to that candidate), and then you could give to a bunch of PAC’s – who then could give even more to the candidate.
And you can have your relatives donate, after giving them their “allowance”. Check out all the “Housewives” that somehow pony up that $4200 to multiple Congressional candidates and are somehow flush enough to plop down $25K for the RNC. I guess that means the Conservatives really do appreciate that “housekeeping” is worthy of decent pay ;-) pity they don’t treat their “foreign help” the same way.
Essentially the spending laws really don’t prevent anything
TeddySanFran @ 82
Definitely…if it is only for his campaign…and it doesn’t matter if some of it goes for the “food” or “production costs”. That’s not allowed. That’s in the “campaign expenditure” column and the limit is on the size of the CONTRIBUTION.
TryingAgain @ 219
I also recall that while MacNerney was telling people to back off his case, he said that those in Republican Congressional districts should be pressuring THEIR REPRESENTATIVES. Seems a bit hypocritical…don’t we elect people like MacNerney to put some HEAT on their recalcitrant colleagues.
In their quest to get the Veto Proof Majority (VPM) they will have to sink to the position of the very last Republican that will bring them to that 67% majority. And that person is unlikely to be even as “moderate” as Senator John “5000 reduction by January” Warner.
These are going to be vitriolic Pugs like Congressman Dan Lungren or Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson!
So when they shoot for the VPM they are gonna have to sell out their principles…to get nothing. NOTHING!
And why should we support them when they simply become Republicans? Because they give friendly dinner parties?