In that other war that we so rarely hear about things aren’t going so well. The YouTube above was recently discovered by reporters at the Guardian who describe it as:
A nine-minute clip on YouTube offers a terrifying glimpse of the way the war is being won and lost in southern Afghanistan. The video, filmed from the belly of a Spectre AC-130 gunship, shows an attack on an alleged insurgent camp, rendered through a quivering black and white screen and the pilot’s mechanical monotone.
The crosshairs wander across a cluster of buildings, seeking out targets and shredding them to pieces. The bombs blitz mud dwellings, turn vehicles into fireballs, and mow down dozens of small white figures – people – as they sprint hopeless for their lives. “You are clear to level the building,” says the voice. The only sop to local sensitivities is that the Americans avoid hitting a mosque.
The US air strikes may not be targeting mosques, but they are leading – as in Iraq – to an increasing number of civilian casualties and this week a US bomb also killed 3 British soldiers.
Today we learned of a new report of civilians killed by another US bombing like the one in the video:
At least six wounded were brought to a hospital in Lashkar Gah, the provincial capital of Helmand.
They belonged to the family of villager Ghulam Mohammad and included three men, two women and a child, said Rahmatullah Hanafi, the head of Emergency Hospital where they were treated. All had shrapnel wounds. One woman was in a critical condition.
Mohammad said eight members of his family, including children, were also killed in the attack, which he said went on for several hours.
“So far between 60 killed and wounded people have been recovered and there are people who are trapped under collapsed houses,” Mohammad told Reuters outside the hospital.
“It was a quiet evening and the bombardment began all of a sudden. Cattle have also been killed,” said another family member, Haji Saeed Mohammad.
“We can’t do anything, can’t stay in our villages and can’t go anywhere … it is best for us to be killed all at once than being killed every day,” he added.
According to Afghan government figures, some 700 civilians were killed in 2006 as a result of the fighting. Up to 380 civilians were killed in the first four months of 2007, the UN estimates.
At the end of July, Nato’s secretary-general, Jaap de Hoop Scheffer reported a change in tactics to better protect civilians from air strikes:
“We realise that if we cannot neutralise our enemy today without harming civilians, our enemy will give us the opportunity tomorrow,” he told the FT. “If that means going after a Taliban not on Wednesday but on Thursday, we will get him then.”
But US special forces – who operate outside the NATO command – seem to have less restraint:
British officers say they want to use fewer bombs to avoid alienating villagers, particularly as the Taliban splinter. But some American special forces, who operate under a separate chain of command, have other ideas.
Last month a British officer in Helmand asked an American unit to vacate his area, the New York Times reported, because blistering bomb strikes were destroying efforts to win “hearts and minds”.
In fact Paddy Ashdown, former High Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina under the Dayton accords, described the situation as follows:
One can normally at least rely on the military to understand the importance of unity of command. But in Afghanistan, even this is absent. The US military are not exclusively under the command of Nato’s mission in Afghanistan, and frequently conduct operations that run counter to the Nato force’s basic doctrine of minimising civilian deaths
Both Amnesty International and the International Committee of the Red Cross have recently questioned the growing civilian casualties – as has the Afghan government.
And we now hear that Washington is “worried about weakening Italian and German commitments in Afghanistan.” Both countries are questioning their continued involvement given the results of the US reliance on air strikes:
Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D’Alema recently blamed a lack of coordination between US and ISAF forces for hundreds of Afghan civilian deaths, which he called “morally unacceptable.”
“The Italians can be proud of what they are doing but at the end of the day it’s not so much a referendum on ‘are we making a difference?’ but really a referendum about how closely do you want to be associated with the US administration,” the US official said.
(snip)
“As the issue of civilian casualties becomes more and more an issue in German politics, that is another one that is of real concern,” said the US official.
When will we learn the lesson that Ashdown described so well in his July editorial in The Guardian “We are Failing in Afghanistan”:
I recently had a rather heated conversation with a government minister who assured me that we were winning in Afghanistan because “we were killing more Taliban”. But success is not measured in dead Taliban. It’s measured in how many more water supplies are being reconnected; how many more people now have the benefit of the rule of law and good governance; how many have the prospect of a job; and, above all, whether we are winning or losing the battle for public opinion, which is central to successful reconstruction.
Sadly, we are very slow learners.
h/t Jane and Jerid!
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Never had it to begin with. What a tragedy.
hello all
Siun, the angel with the pitbull ;)
Siun, the superior fire power notion only works in force on force ops, it certainly doesn’t win ‘Hearts and Minds’!!! :-(
It might perhaps be far easier to tote up just where Bush is winning.
Watching that YouTube is exceptionally creepy.
Hiya, something strange…I just watched the HBO broadcast about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The famous co-pilot, Robert A. Lewis, who reportedly wrote, “”My God,” he asked himself, “what have we done”…is mentioned in Wiki briefly…Everything else about him… is Gone..I can find nothing about him post a show on kinescope….where he showed remorse toward the Nagasaki “maidens”…
His diary sold for a lot of money. Is he dead or alive…or did he actually ever exist????
Hi Siun. thanks for another great post.
(I think you meant Italian, not Iranlian, btw).
I’ll keep being repetitive (until it stops). Bombing occupied territories is a war crime, per the Geneva Conventions. We have become war criminals.
Evening all …
Mr. Pitbull was very excited all day – we took a walk very late last night and he startled a rabbit from the bushes (in downtown Chicago) … he keeps hoping there are more … (and no, he was not allowed to chase the bunny … )
Can’t our leaders put themselves in the shoes of others? Can’t our military leaders see that killing innocent civilians pisses everyone else off? I do not get this *logic*.
Mr. LS just searched Wiki for Robert A. Lewis..and came up with Jerry Lewis and Huey Lewis…WTF?
Wait’ll Bibi gets back to being PM. That could be “the other shoe” we’re all waiting for to drop.
At what point do our former allies call us out for these war crimes? The Italians, the Germans, and the English must know how awful our warmaking has been. What venue have they to press our Geneva violations, they who know so much and are leaving us to continue?
Jane – thanks for pointing me to the YouTube …
it’s very creepy indeed. Watching them pick off little white figures with major firepower … and then realizing those little white dots are human beings running for their lives … and losing them.
I just don’t see how we could be so stupid as to be losing Afghanistan, hearts and minds and all. It’s not like we haven’t been engaged over there for, is it, DECADES?
LS, are you sure it was on wiki to begin with?
Teddy – I have asked several European friends why their governments are not pushing for prosecution. No one has a good answer.
TeddySanFran @ 13
The Dems will not accuse the Repubs of war crimes.
They’re all in bed together.
My suggestion: Look for the exit.
We’re winning in Afghanistan, making progress in Iraq and soon perhaps to be winning or making progress in Iran. And the Israeli government is winning in Palestine, Lebanon, and soon perhaps, Syria too. We’re all a bunch of winners.
TeddySanFran @ 13
I’m guessing they’ve been told that if they want our protection during this reign, they need to STFU.
I’ve imagined asking the United Nations to censure us.
(Laura – thanks! – fixed typo so folks can refresh and get the right spelling)
So very heartsickening, especially after reading The Bookseller of Kabul. The people occupying the offices of the White House and OVP simply do not get it.
Success cannot be measured by dead bodies.
Success can only be measured by dead memes.
I think of Guthrie’s guitar labeled, This machine kills fascists…
That’s one device for killing memes. There are more, like clean running water and stable electricity and safe places for education for all. Those things kill memes and win the real war.
Loo Hoo. @ 16
No. He was listed as the co-pilot on the Enola Gay in Wiki…you can’t click on his name, on Enola Gay…his diary was sold for a bunch of money…he was on Teevee…showing remorse…then…nothing..nothing else. I’ll get a couple of links. Something is odd.
Siun @ 17
Try asking the same questions of the Congress?
Why should people in other countries have to come up for an answer to a question which no American can reasonably answer?
Loo Hoo. @ 16
This is the diary story.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor…..898263.stm
LS – remember that wiki only has entries if people create them. Maybe you should do that.
james @ 25
I agree. WTF have Americans not risen up?
Of course, British Petroleum and Shell are interested in sharing Iraq’s oil–so why would certain countries actively disapprove? I envision history books speaking of this era as the first of the Energy Source wars…well, I won’t spell the rest out because it depresses me too much tonight.
James – I agree but since Congress seems unable or should I say unwilling to put a stop to all of this, outside help would be very welcome. Help being indictments for war crimes … for the whole lot of them.
Here is the “This is Your Life” clip of Robert A. Lewis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZLuP7UsSRo
This guy was on TV…now erased from history…Why?
I little Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern would sure go a long ways right about now. We radically crave peace. We want out of Iraq and Afghanistan now.
Siun @ 27
It is not just Wiki. It is everywhere. Ask.com…everywhere…
Laura Doty @ 29
I envision history books speaking of this era as the decline and fall of the U.S.
As a failed experiment.
As an experiment ultimately devoid of, but dependant upon, good new ideas.
Laura Doty @ 29
I am coming more frequently to the conclucsion that if the people in the US don’t do something to stop this illegal administration, then no one else can be held responsible for maximizing the opportunities thrown their way.
Liberals in this country are proving the point that Limbaugh and his imitators used to always make that they are weak, whiners who would prefer to negotiate and mediate rather than take definitive action.
Well, we have seen the actions taken by the radicals in the executive and their members in the Congress. Where are the actions the Democrats have taken, aside from legitimizing ex post facto illegal actions already performed by the ruling junta?
Jane Hamsher @ 6
Shorter Junya: “Where would ah be without mah joystick?”
Answer: Pickin’ lint out of your cellmate’s navel.
Who is this guy?? Was he just propaganda post dropping the bomb? I would feel better if I could find something concrete on his existence. He was cited for his “remorse”…Why can you google the bombadier, the navigator??? Am I just missing something???
LS @ 33
Why not try an experiment — post an entry about him at Wikipedia, then monitor the post to see what happens.
People are now able to see who’s changing entries by IP address. Might be interesting to see who changes your entry, yes?
LS @ 24
There are edit wars going on at Wiki. Some of the ‘editors’ are improving their personal position by deleting articles, because status is determined by the number of edits they make.
Siun @ 30
Sorry, Siun, but in this country, this so-called beacon of democracy letting the fact that the Congress, a Democratic Congress, no less, is unwilling or unable to do what is right only militates toward a mass demonstration organized via the toobz or other alternative media in order to get things started.
The argument that outsiders had to remedy wrongs was advanced by Clinton when he urged NATO to do the dirty work in Yugoslavia that he didn’t want blamed entirely on him.
It is no one’s responsibility but our own to rid ourselves of these stones in our shoes; if we can’t do it we need to change our name because the brand ain’t worth shit.
Siun @ 17
Probably the same answer we’re hearing from our own Democrats: “We can’t do anything unless we have a Veto-Proof Majority.”
So. was that Usama on the youtube? Oh, wait.. we are not after Usama. Bush says he doesn’t worry about him anymore.
I guess those blown up human beings were just target practice.
LS @ 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZLuP7UsSRo
I searched using Captain Robert A. Lewis AND Hiroshima (Add Enola Gay if you want more results)
My skepticism of the Robert A. Lewis story…is exactly why I think your story about Afghanistan is so important Siun…
Are they pushing documentaries that somehow make it redeemable to drop an A-bomb in the Middle East?? I’m going to post something else in a minute.
James – you won’t get an argument here on that … so what should we do?
Margot @ 43
That Youtube video is about all you get. There is no history. He was an historic figure.
Eureka Springs @ 42
According to the poster at YouTube, they were “belligerants” [sic] which I am sure is correct. They looked belligerant to me. /s
Can you imagine being in a meeting at the community building next to your mosque, or church, or temple, and have hell rain down like that? It’s inconceivable to me that it is happening in our names.
[tsf using the /s tag more liberally now]
Siun, Is it me or are you noticing a dramatic decrease in news out of Irak lately?
So, why is this all happening now????
http://news-info.wustl.edu/new…../5017.html
James – sorry, my last crossed with yours. I happen to like mass demonstrations and have been to many but they do not change the actions of this administration or this congress. I think we need to face the reality that we are very far from democracy now … very far.
You guys are probably sick of hearing this from me, but I think we need a country-wide organized march. Like the immigrants had on May 1, 2006, only much larger. We need a song (Neil Young’s Lets Impeach the President?) and coordinated banners/signs. It could be huge, but we need the leadership. Where do we turn? The world needs to know that we are not all like most of our politicians. In fact, it would get our politicians off their asses. What are we waiting for?
I’ve done the little 50 people on a street corner routine, it doesn’t work. We need a massive rally!
Teddy … did you look at the comments that went with the YouTube … they are sickening, truly.
TeddySanFran @ 13
It’s coming. If the next President doesn’t change our military strategy, it’s going to happen. They are waiting to see what the Dems do. If they do as Hillary says they should do — though who believes her on any of this stuff nowadays — they will pull out. The Russians look like a better ally than the United States at that point.
This is what Brezinski has been driving at, and what every student of diplomatic history can see written as plain as a nose on a face. Alliances are not forever. The Brits, Germans and French could turn NATO into a meaningless shell in a New York minute, and I believe would not hesitate to do so if they began to think that our present course is not an aberration, but something deeply connected to our national character (which I fear it might be).
They won’t bother with war crimes. They’s just turn us in for a new model.
Siun @ 45
A call for a general strike would be a start. There are enough people in this country aware of failing infrastructure, horrendous working conditions for miners, serive employees, retail workers.
Something along the lines of the good old IWW. Without using that terrible word soc***l*sm there is enough metarial around to get people worked up enough that maybe a serious effort to shut this country down at least once could be effective.
Using the image of Murray, the mine owner juxtaposed with Bush the Decider listening to warnings about Katrina before the storm, maybe the message and the false story can be cracked just a little, enough to get something started, like a crack on a windshield.
Siun @ 52
I started to, but then I turned away. Craving cheetohs.
In the War on Terror, like the War on Drugs, the last thing our governments is to “win.” Because, then it would all be over. Everyone would have to find another job, one where they lack seniority and beneifts. Much better not to win and to keep doing what one is so good at — put all those years of hard-won experience to work.
Siun @ 50
We’ve been very far from democracy since Kent State and Jackson when no one was prosecuted and UNION workers were either cheering for the National Guard our assaulting the kids themselves while the overlord class looked on and high-fived.
Rayne @ 38
How can you edit a Wiki entry with no information, i.e., DOB, DOD, who is he married to, where does he live if still alive? There is NO info on this presumably historic figure. Why, did his diary, sell for so much money? Who is/was he??
Hi Siun.
Did you read about this?
Eureka – I’ve seen news from Iraq but so much of it is Mr. Allawi compliments of his very expensive PR team.
And now we have Warner, Hillary, Carl Levin, Mitch McConnell, and former Bush stooge Allawi all ganging up on Maliki. It’s obvious this whole Iraq mess is Maliki’s fault. What a bunch of bull.
SnarKassandra @ 59
No one ever accused the Public Information Office of the US Armed Forces of exactly getting it when it comes to winning hearts and minds.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some a*hole thought this would be the same as using frisbees emblazoned with some cultural icon.
Of course, when it comes to understanding Islam and prohibitions against representations of either the Prophet or other icons would be lost on most of these people notwithstanding the fact that we’ve been deeply involved in this area for more than 50 years.
Siun @ 60
Yes, I noticed even the guides crew seems to be reporting around the edges of combat, not actual combat.. Anyway.. it’s probably just my hit and miss surfing habits.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 61
So if all the senators in all the other countries all over the world all gang up on Bush, will they make sure he loses his job? Please?????
SnarKassandra @ 59
Well Cassie, it’s not like any of these clowns have the first freaking clue about the history, culture or religons of the countries they so gleefully pulverize.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, in Congress who voted with George Bush to go to war in Iraq has much blood on their hands.
Maybe it’s a residual holdover from my State Dept intern days, but somehow, dropping “pigskins” over an Islamic country seems like a bad idea. I’m guessing no one at the DOD checked with the State Department’s cultural attache on that.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 66
AMEN!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 66
Will you vote for any such person?
Is the story about the “survivors” of the attack on Japan, softening us up?
“Within Iran there are more than 450 major strategic targets, including numerous suspected nuclear-weapons-program development sites. Many of the targets are hardened or are deep underground and could not be taken out by conventional weapons, hence the nuclear option. As in the case of Iraq, the response is not conditional on Iran actually being involved in the act of terrorism directed against the United States. Several senior Air Force officers involved in the planning are reportedly appalled at the implications of what they are doing—that Iran is being set up for an unprovoked nuclear attack—but no one is prepared to damage his career by posing any objections.”
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html
I don’t pay any attention to football but isn’t a football made from pig skin? Hello?
Knut Wicksell @ 53
General de Gaulle said it best: “Nations don’t have friends; they have only interests.”
Eureka Springs @ 71
It is a soccer ball.
SnarKassandra @ 73
Exactly….This isn’t the American football (I don’t think).
Football everywhere else except here is soccer, except rugby which is, well, rugby.
Ringside seats to a slaughter. What wonderful technology we have, and we use it so wisely.
Why do not our elected representatives understand that impeachment is their duty. It is not a choice, not a political weapon or bargaining chip or threat. They took a god*damn oath. I promised I wasn’t going to get upset. If they are foresworn on this level (except Kucinich), how can we trust them at the next.
Siun @ 60
I cull my news from McClatchy on-line (here):Reuters (right here);Iraq Today (voila) and Gorilla Gudes (içi). Then to Juan Cole for commentary and analysis: here and here for global commentary from Juan and colleagues.
I’ve given up on MSM. They just don’t do it. McClatchy’s is working hard. If you’re inclined, please leave their writers a note. Most are Iraqis–with an American Bureau chief (Leila Fadel) and one visiting reporter who stays for a few weeks, posted from a U.S. McClatchy paper.
Jonathan @ 69
Lahoma and I are wrestling with that question as I type.
Peterr @ 67
But, but, they did! Didja catch all the remarks not to take out the Mosque…!!!
LS @ 70
That was two years ago. Everybody knows better now. Right?
Knut Wicksell @ 53
We’ve been morally compromised since before the Second World War ended and we started the massive plundering of Europe for Nazi technology and the war criminals who developed it. Oue entire space program is the result of our bringing Werner von Braun and his Nazi buddies from Peenemunde here by lying about their Nazi past and their allegiance to Hitler and his world view.
We colluded with war criminals, we made their escape from Germany easy, and we continued (and continue) to harbor them to this day.
This government of ours which is filled with war criminals from many of our wars is already compromised in the eyes of the world.
I don’t expect any of these criminals ever to see a court room unless there is an overall overhaul of this government through something like a Truth and Reconciliation Committee.
Laura Doty @ 76
Thanks..)
Knut Wicksell @ 53
SnarKassandra @ 73
Without a link, Cassie, it’s hard to know which it is. What’s the source of your article?
Peterr @ 67
They were dropping soccer balls, and even US-footballs are not really made of pigskin.
I will be up to the Navy Air and the Air Force to extract our broken military out of Iraq in ‘09. It’s going to be ugly. I hope I am wrong.
GordonM @ 84
w/o a link, I couldn’t tell if it was soccer or American footballs. As for the “pigskins”, that’s why I put it in quotation marks.
Laura – those are all good sources. I would add
Al Aswat Iraq which I really depend on. And I find Azzaman a very useful source.
There is a slow pushback regarding Canadian troops in Afghanistan happening these days. We don’t have any troops in Iraq but I know there are Canadian special forces (JTF2) probably running around Iraq these days but we don’t talk about such things.
We have lost 69 soldiers on Afghanistan since 2002 when we agreed to “help” Chimpy McFlightsuit and it is starting to make an impact with the populace. I know the loss of 69 troopers is no comparision to the 3900 that you folks have lost in Iraq but this is not what we do (I don’t know how many US forces have been killed in Afghanistan). We are known for peacekeeping and are more than willing to accept losses to protect the unfortunate by standing between 2 warring factions but not fallen soldiers on a misguided adventure of Chimpy and Dicky.
Our Parliament has agreed to provide troops to Afghanistan until 2009. After that the p*****g match begins. It will be interesting to see how Stevie (I never met a donut I didn’t like) deals with with Afghanistan once his idol is sitting in Crawford waiting for the release of “My Pet Goat” on DVD.
The most secure area in Afghanistan are the poppy fields. Undoubtedly, the corporate owned fields are not targeted. The villagers should build their homes in the green zone, aka poppy fields. It’s Halliburton’s Fort Knox.
here is a link about footballs in afghanistan.
Siun @ 87
Thank you. I’ll add them to my dailies.
RockPaperScissors .. the Afghans killed today were from a village within the Poppy area.
Steve-AR @ 84
Amen! No Saigon ‘75!!! Or Dunkirk……
Peterr @ 86
Photo here.
De-humanize and neutralize…
Pisses me off!!
I also visit this site daily. There are not enough visuals–and I think it opens the heart to see as well as think.
Steve – from what I hear, the withdrawal will of necessity be a march with fighting all along the way. Al Sadr had offered to protect the US troops if they would leave but I’m not sure that offer still stands given the level of decimation of Sadr City by US air strikes.
but this is not a “helo off the roof” event … it *will* be ugly.
Laura Doty @ 96
Keeping it real.
there’s another one too.
Record-breaking opium crop destabilizes Afghanistan
By Jon Hemming Sat Aug 25, 10:08 PM ET
KABUL (Reuters) – Afghanistan’s poppy harvest is expected to top all records this year as the country spirals deeper into a vicious circle of drugs, corruption and insecurity.
ADVERTISEMENT
A United Nations report due on Monday will announce that Afghanistan is now producing nearly 95 percent of the world’s opium, up from 92 percent in 2006, officials and diplomats say.
This marks the sixth straight year of rises since U.S.-led and Afghan forces toppled the Taliban in 2001 — despite hundreds of millions of dollars pumped into programs to halt cultivation, processing and trafficking of the drug.
I’m not sure the Americans have done anything but blow things up in Afghanistan (or help blowing them up).
I think it was Robert Fisk who said that around the time of the civil war of the late `60s (when the king was deposed), USAID came into the country and contracted to have, if you can believe it, model three-bedroom ranch houses built in Afghanistan. Wooden houses in a country that’s very short on forests….
Then we create a proxy war… then we let the Taliban take over, so we can start another war with them… then we think that air power will “win” the war.
Amazing how godawful stupid we’ve been regarding Afghanistan….
Siun @ 96
It will be, getting the Americans out of the Green Zone, Siun!
It’a always been all about oil.
“The oil law is seen as the most important in a package of measures stalled by political infighting in al-Maliki’s government.”
from Al Jazerra today.
SnarKassandra @ 90
Good grief!
Just because NASCAR plasters corporate logos all over their cars doesn’t mean that this practice would be welcomed by other sports in other countries.
And messing with the Saudi flag? Don’t even go there.
Laura – you can also see the same photos – and more if you bookmark the Yahoo News feed Iraq slideshow – the photos are often amazing and the captions which are written by photographers and reporters on the scene (often) tell a much more complete story of Iraq than we ever see in any source.
If the people there want us to leave iraq and afghanistan, wouldn’t they just let us leave?
They’re going to hand this Iraq thing off to Hillary and the Democrats. And then what?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 102
Ding. You get a piece of Montaq’s amazing cheesecake…It may create world peace, it sounds so darn good.
RockPaperScizzors @ 89
Actually, the history of the Bush family would give ownership to them, although Halliburton has a long history with the family going back to the days when Dresser Industries, George H W Bush’s first employer in Texas, was bought by Halliburton.
Consider the 600% increase in the amount of cocaine that entered the US when Bush was head of the Southeast US Drug Interdiction Task Force. His 1967 trip to Vietnam with Thomas Devine, his CIA handler, coincided with the development of the Golden Triangle in northern Laos which resulted in a shift in heroin refinement from Western Asia to SE Asia. It also coincided with the increased use of the drug by US troops.
The increase in poppy prodcution and the concomitant increase in opium production is a positive thing for the Bush junta and their money-laundering friends on Wall Street.
SnarKassandra @ 99
Bush will no doubt praise the power of the free market economy. Production is up, and . . . oh, wait a minute.
In the immortal words of Emily Litella, never mind.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 102
Siun @ 104
Thanks for that Siun.
SnarKassandra @ 105
IMHO, probably not. There will be jockeying for advantage and position between the various groups in Iraq, and it would greatly enhance the prestige of those who killed or captured Americans as they were withdrawing. The US will guard the convoys with Apaches and Spectres, and have the USAF ready to “plow a road” if needed. Odds are, anyone meaning harm to those convoys won’t have a chance to get near them.
SnarKassandra @ 105
They’re pissed, Cassie. And with good reason. Many of them will want to kill our troops and take our equipment.
If anyone has sirius radio, there’s a show on now on channel 5 with what appears to be nothing but Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers
Gonna stop reading here and getting depressed and listen to this dead kid from Washington Heights.
SnarKassandra @ 90
It is obvious that the people who make these decisions are willfully ignorant. Do they think that it would be OK to put Bible verses on a soccer ball? Why, oh why, would they think that it would not be offensive to have Koran verses on a soccer ball? It would be farcical if not so horribly tragic.
Loo Hoo. @ 112
Can we trade the equipment for safety for the troops?
madmommy @ 114
Cause they think it is just squiggles.
Maybe Trading Up Soon at Justice
August 24, 2007 06:02 PM ET | Bedard, Paul |
The buzz among top Bushies is that beleaguered Attorney General Alberto Gonzales finally plans to depart and will be replaced by Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff. Why Chertoff? Officials say he’s got fans on Capitol Hill, is untouched by the Justice prosecutor scandal, and has more experience than Gonzales did, having served as a federal judge and assistant attorney general
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/wa…..up-soon-at
Rove is outta there and possibly, Gonzales on the move out as well. There’s a mighty strong stench coming from the west wing. Who’s next and what’s up?
Siun @ 97
I wasn’t very clear..The Navy and Air Force will be combat air cover and not the primary evac. The pictures of April 30, 1975 is the image people have of the US military being forced out of Vietnam, but all US combat troops were gone by August 1972. The few remaining were some civilian and military advisers, Marine embassy guards and embassy personnel.
The Iraq situation could very well turn out to be evac of 400,000 over roads in a hostile environment. This was the point Steve Gilliard kept making with his maps.
Cassie – there was a time when most Iraqis would have been happy to just see us go. I think we are way past that time and the atrocious behavior of our military has created both obvious resentment but also a desire for a “blood price” on behalf of relatives, friends and family killed by our soldiers. And RonD is right that they will attempt to protect the retreat … but given how poorly they are protecting supply routes now, I don’t think they will succeed. It will be a fight and we will not necessarily be the winners.
Folks should read the sections of Fisk’s Great War on his experiences traveling the surrender route of the Iraqi forces after Gulf War 1 … people do remember.
SnarKassandra @ 117
True. We are not dealing with the sharpest tacks in the box, here are we?
Steve-AR – I miss Steve Gilliard something fierce.
Jewish people take the second commandment so serious that they don’t write God’s name anywhere unless they are praying, cause then they might have to erase it and it is a graven image. I think. Maybe it is an idol. Not sure. But they don’t write it.
james @ 114
James- current mess we have created is so depressing. Often same here. But, I did get one of those “lists” of stuff that people forward me. Not meaning to make light of any of the dimensions of depression, tho, and I hope you understand that for following:
I was depressed and sad after the McNerney “non-conversation”. And, then from that list I read “Depression is anger without enthusiasm”. And, that quote got me thinking.
I am absolutely beside myself.
Gas prices drop nearly 3 cents in last 2 weeks.
Cassie, we can’t let them have our equipment, or perhaps they can copy it and use it against us, I think.
OT, has anyone ever tried putting raisins in their hamburger meat for tacos? Really yummy, and I hate raisins. Cook up the meat, add the water and taco mix and a cup of raisins. Learned it from a gal from Oaxaca.
And I miss Molly Ivins.
SnarKassandra @ 123
They view it as holy, which is to say, so special and separate that it ought not be written or even spoken.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 127
me too
Steve-AR @ 118
It’ll be Army Blackhawks and Chinooks to evacuate the Green Zone…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 127
Oh my, yes. And she was someone who remembered to laugh and live large, even knowing all the damned ugliness. How I need to keep taking a page from her book.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 127
Me too.
Siun @ 122
Me too..and the question I would have for him now is “What is the lowest number of troops we can drawn down to before the Mahdi Army and the general population go for the kill. Now we have Military plus civilian ?250-300,000 combats troops in Iraq. Can we draw down to 100,000 before total collapse of the military infrastructure? I have no idea.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 125
Oh, gas prices have dropped 40 cents since mid June here. I can’t figure it out, since we’re still somewhere around $65bbl. Increased refinery production, I suppose. The one thing they fixed around NOLA?
LS @ 46
Tibbets seems to have grabbed most of the Crew publicity; maybe Lewis just wasn’t very interesting! — A one quote guy. Nevertheless, one should still find an entry in an encyclopedia of aviators somewhere.
There seems to be a bunch of secondary literature, and video archives. In other words, someone seriously interested in research could probably dig up the stuff. But you’re right, it does seem a bit odd to have so little on him out there.
Bob in HI
montag @ 100
The objective is to “not win”. If we won, we have no excuse for staying. It’s difficult to not win, but these guys are making it look easy. Obviously they’ve had a lot of practice.
The point is to have troops in place when the last barrel of oil is pumped, because he who contols the last barrel of oil controls the world. See The Grand Chessboard by Brezesinski http://www.perseusbooksgroup.c…..0465027261
GordonM @ 82
Which will last right up until the time China gets all those subs built and starts to push out in the Pacific, which we will not be able to prevent. The writing is all over that wall.
CTuttle @ 130
Isn’t that the way it always is? Maybe Vietnam was an exception, the civilian embassy people stuck it out to the bitter end.
I’m not sure this is really OT
Blowin’ in the Wind
CTuttle – which is why I assume the resistance has been working out how to shoot down helicopters …
and blowing up bridges.
I highly recommend Main and Central to all who want to understand the military situation. Lurch really knows his stuff.
We’ll also have some more info and discussions with Iraq Vets against the War . They have some things planned for the fall that we can help out with … and I think it would be very good to hear more of what only they can tell us. We’ve been emailing since the post on Thursday and they are firepup fans.
i am entering late into the thread, but karzai(sp?) a few months ago, called on a moratoriam of bombing missions, because of the high civilian count of mortalities…………..that said a lot to me…….the leader of afghanistan said no bombing allowed………..i wonder sometimes what his leverage is, he was able to enforce that moratoriam………his closest advisor, can’t remember his name, but always noticed him from the beginning, drawn to him….he’s the one always standing right behind kharzi, you’ve seen him, he’s been on talk shows, too, well, was a few years ago anyway…..his son wrote a book about afghanistan…….about being raised in la, and his father being called back to serve for the country he lost………sorry i can’t remember the names………..they have all made me think so many times about what i would do………that was where our successes lie…….and yet we failed them…well maybe not yet….makes me sick when i think of hearing them talk about the hope they have for their country.
Siun @ 140
I am so glad you are hosting them again. This week’s post was great. Siun, you are such a resource. Many many thanks for your efforts.
OT – KO’s WPITW on NBC
Mike McConnell, the Director of National Intelligence making the startling assertion that merely discussing the Bush administration’s wiretapping of Americans will kill Americans. The reporter asked, “so you’re saying that the reporting and the debate in Congress means that some Americans are going to die?” McConnell replied, “that’s what I mean, because we have made it so public. We used to do these things very differently. He then declassified five previously secret details about the wiretap program and told them to the reporter from the El Paso Times. I may be missing something here, but that sure sounds like you have just made it so public.
Our runner up. Good old Bill O’Reilly of fixed news. Citing a recent investigative report from all of places, msnbc.com. He told his cable audience, “we know that journalists, most journalists give money to democrats.” No really, no. The report said that most journalists who do give money to political groups give that money to democrats but the report only found 127 American journalists who had given money to democrats out of about 100,000. That would be approximately 1/110th of 1%. As opposed to say, most.
But our winner in an upset, comedian Rush Limbaugh explaining that Americans who want to see their sons and daughters and friends and neighbors brought home from iraq alive are actually racists. “They want to get us out of Iraq but they can’t wait to get us into darfur,” the comedian explained. “What color is the skin of the people in Darfur, he asked? It’s black. And who do the Democrats really need to keep voting for them if they lose a significant percentage of this voting block they’re in trouble?” Wait, I haven’t got tonight best part. Rush, I hate to break this to you, but most of American investment in South Africa came while Ronald Reagan was president and while the first George Bush was president they let Mandela out of jail and also, you’re nuts! Comedian Rush Limbaugh, today’s worst person in the world.
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvn……asp?c=rss
bobschacht @ 135
Bob, according to this
discussion page in Wiki, that Enola Gay page gets a lot of vandalism. I noticed there was a dated alteration Aug. 9 2007, which is close to
link here.
bobschacht @ 135
The Enola Gay is restored and on display at the Air and Space museum out by Dullas airport. The last time I was there, there was a large group of Japanese tourists visiting. It looked to me as if they read the identifying signs and sort of moved back and then away. Or it might have been projection on my part.
Siun @ 139
It’s a bookmark of mine, Military.com, is a good resource too… Particularly, Galloway!
SnarKassandra @ 59
This is so typical. Drop poorly researched largesse from the air. Avoid personal contact.
One of the lies this administration peddled in this war was that 9/11 was different! Everything changed at 9/11! Everything is different so there is nothing to learn from anything that ever happened before!
But I remembered from Vietnam the difficulty of understanding who the “enemy” was. Machine-gunning little white specks (fleeing humans) from a helicopter and then reporting on the number of “enemy” killed is worse than a farce.
Of course, the same difficulty (who’s the enemy?) has been true of every imperial occupation since the dawn of history, but the neo-cons didn’t want to be bothered with that.
Bob in HI
and siun, how in the hell do you cover both wars?
and i really wish i had the name of the son of the advisor……talked about how when afghanistan had the possibility of being a nation again, that karzai asked his father to be his advisor, how his father talked it over with his family, and when decided, took his son with him, and he kept a diary of all of the meetings involved, was really fascinating……..good kid….kept good notes. all kinds of leaders involved……..were an afghan family waiting for the time when they could be a country again……good reading, but i gave the book away, and don’t remember the names……
Valley Girl @ 124
All that talk of “veto proof majority” made me think of:
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
The need for an assured win in Congress is seemingly depressing/deflating of any momentum.
Why not go ahead and put a war-ending resolution to a vote?
Even if it “fails” it will:
1) push the hardcore pubs to go on record and
2) allow the fence sitters a chance to vote their conscience.
They understand
water boarding, water torture, leaks, flooding, erosion of civil rights, erosion toppling expensive beach houses into the sea, heck,
they even get trickle down economics,
but they don’t understand that the erosive power of putting things to a vote –
i.e., the (Dem anti-war) tide rolling in and taking out one leg (Blue Dogs & Pubs with consciences), then receding to collect, then coming back in and taking out the other…
Put a resolution forward!
Erode the “veto proof majority”
OT a wee bit, but typically of interest here:
Military cites risk of abuse by CIA
(My Bold)
Junya jest can’t stop playing with his joystick.
“We have met the enemy. And he is us.”
The ever-wise Pogo.
But Tribe, do you remember in the Senate they couldn’t get the votes to bring it to a vote? Fuckery. If the dems get a good hold of the senate in ‘08, they should take a hard look at the rules.
This one goes out to Siun and montag…
Phil Ochs- I aint marching anymore
Big black square on top of the last comment…
Loo Hoo. @ 153
change the size of the window and it will move. we get it all the time on the mac.
Loo Hoo. @ 152
I am not sure how they changed the rules after LBJ. But 60 votes is better than it used to be for cloture. During the civil rights era and before, IIRC it was 67 votes for cloture.
james @ 62
They probably subcontracted the job to a marketing firm in Virginia for $500,000. Price is no object, because we have congresscritters who would never withhold money from “the troops,” would we?
Oh, dear. Now I’m being cynical again.
Bob in HI
TribeScribe @ 148
Thanks for the reply, and especially this:
“The need for an assured win in Congress is seemingly depressing/deflating of any momentum.” except I would say IS, not “seemingly”.
Cassie, thanks, but as your auntie can tell you, I need further instruction! Did you get the cable?
Loo Hoo. @ 158
No ma’am. Not yet.
It is really hard not to be.
Try not to be cynical, Bob…
Try not to be cynical, Bob…
Try not to be cynical, Bob…
I am not cynical. I have the perfect clothes and bright pink nails and a new purse and a backpack with flowers and I am completely 1000% ready for 10th grade.
All I need now is to remember how to get up at 6:30 AM and to not have a frizzy hair day.
SnarKassandra @ 155
AAAH…mine is gray, and usually appears in a long thread, close to the bottom (another Mac user). Thanks, Cassie….will try that next time it appears.
SnarKassandra @ 163
Ahh….youth.
Heaven sakes, Cassie. I remember going in to 10th grade. Being nervous about everything being perfect. You won’t believe how much the boys have grown. It’s crazy at that age.
Frizzies? All depends on the weather.
Has anybody noticed the reporting on the marine that got charged with murder in Iraq. The gist of it is that a home was raided in the typical manner, and the whole family – Mom Dad and two daughters – was executed by this overzealous marine.
The reports on the story typically cite that a man, a woman, and two girls (in a house) were killed (unintentionally). IOW, the media is intentionally spinning the story to make it seem that the victims were random and unrelated. The fact is that the victims were a family (in their own home).
SnarKassandra @ 163
I hope you have a FANTABULOUS day sweetie, and I love your ‘tude!
hackworth @ 167
Check out the North County Times.
SnarKassandra @ 105
Well, our Preznit said once that if Iraq asks us to leave, we’ll leave. So Maliki almost immediately invited us to leave. Did we leave? Um, no.
Bob in HI
james @ 108
So that’s why he’s known as “Poppy” Bush???
Loo Hoo. @ 152
Loo Hoo — i hear ya, and — with the release
of Iraq For Sale, there is more awareness. We are not in the same space as
previously. We have to bank that.
This is part of the erosion approach.
bring it up to vote.
congress notes change.
public notes change.
garner momentum.
vote again.
Brave New Films has documented, undeniably,
in the words of our own troops and even the contractors –
what a vile and atrocious and cynical endeavor this occupation is.
This translates into more accountability.
More specifics in convo with congress.
More smart questions.
We can’t give up.
We have to stop it.
TribeScribe @ 172
And it’s not just about getting rid of Bush. He is a symptom, not the cause. We have to go right to the root and keep on digging. Everything that stinks has to be brought to the surface. And, this time, the evil-doers must be brought to justice.
Do any of us know who the targets were here, or is it just that we’re opposed to any people being targets in Afghanistan?
Thanks all for all the great comments … I am having trouble with my net connection – leftover problems from the ChiTown storm this week and missed the last batch – some great leads there.
LS @ 7
Here is something related that may offer a little explanation.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0805-20.htm Here is an offbeat website that gives a little info on him. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-…..id=6390193
Siun @ 120
Sorry…I came back late.
Another great book to get some perspective is “Israel’s Lebanon War” written in 1985 by Ze’ev Schiff and Ehud Ya’ari. Everything the US has been doing since it’s little illegal military adventures got more frequent once Reagan/Bush came to power is in that book…the waterboarding, fake executions (a Nazi favorite), massive retaliation for the killing of one soldier, collective punishment (another Nazi favorite).
Fisk is a wonderful source on the Middle East as is Patrick Coburn.
Americans includes us. It is our military unleaching destruction. We are fighting terrorism with conventional warfare, Wrong move Reign in the military. We are doing this you don’t seem to get it. It is you too for letting it go on.
LS @ 7
Lewis definitely existed. He died in the Summer of 1984 (his obit was in the July 4, 1984 edition of Time Magazine).
His co-pilots journal of the Enola Gay and their mission to Hroshima was sold in 2002.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor…..898263.stm
cinnamonape @ 179
I found a bit more on him and the incident on “This Is Your Life” where he was confronted, unknowingly apparently to all parties, with the Nagasaki Maidens. Google “Robert Wilson” and Nagasaki…or “This Is Your Life”.
“When Kondo was 10 years old, in 1955, her father made a trip to the U.S. with 25 of the “maidens” so that they could obtain corrective plastic surgery at Mt. Sinai Hospital in New York. A television station got wind of the project and contacted Reverend Tanimoto, asking him to appear as a guest on “This is Your Life.”
Arrangements were made without his knowledge, to bring the rest of his family and a core of others. Kondo clung timidly to her mother and looked around. Several of the people she recognized; one, she didn’t. “Who is that man?” she asked her mother. It was Captain Lewis, co-pilot on the B-29 Bomber that had set the Hiroshima blast.
Yes, she had wanted to meet him, but it was a shock that it should happen so soon. She glared at him with intense hatred. That wasn’t enough, so she walked right up to him with the intent of confronting him directly, but Ralph Edward, the show’s host, beat her to it.
“How did you feel after you dropped the bomb?” he asked. Captain Lewis looked down at the frail little Japanese girl who had just marched up so boldly and he spoke directly to her. “We dropped it, and then we flew away as fast as we could go. I looked back and saw the mushroom cloud forming. I saw the whole city being destroyed and I wrote in my log, ‘Oh, God. What have we done?”
He had said it with tears in his eyes. Kondo thought of all the years she had carried such hatred for this man, but at that moment she couldn’t hate him. The thing to hate, she realized with surprising wisdom, is war itself. She put her little hand in his, and held it tightly throughout the remainder of the show.
That experience changed Kondo’s whole attitude. Years later, as a college student in the States, it occurred to her that if he hadn’t said what he did, she would have been carrying this hate around with her all her life. So she tried to find him to thank him. She learned that after appearing on that show, he had been called in by the Pentagon and given hell, after which he had died in a mental hospital. She learned from his psychotherapist there that he had once sculptured a statue of a mushroom cloud, with a tear drop running down its side.”
When Kondo was 10 years old, in 1955, her father made a trip to the U.S. with 25 of the “maidens” so that they could obtain corrective plastic surgery at Mt. Sinai Hospital in New York. A television station got wind of the project and contacted Reverend Tanimoto, asking him to appear as a guest on “This is Your Life.”
Arrangements were made without his knowledge, to bring the rest of his family and a core of others. Kondo clung timidly to her mother and looked around. Several of the people she recognized; one, she didn’t. “Who is that man?” she asked her mother. It was Captain Lewis, co-pilot on the B-29 Bomber that had set the Hiroshima blast.
Yes, she had wanted to meet him, but it was a shock that it should happen so soon. She glared at him with intense hatred. That wasn’t enough, so she walked right up to him with the intent of confronting him directly, but Ralph Edward, the show’s host, beat her to it.
“How did you feel after you dropped the bomb?” he asked. Captain Lewis looked down at the frail little Japanese girl who had just marched up so boldly and he spoke directly to her. “We dropped it, and then we flew away as fast as we could go. I looked back and saw the mushroom cloud forming. I saw the whole city being destroyed and I wrote in my log, ‘Oh, God. What have we done?”
He had said it with tears in his eyes. Kondo thought of all the years she had carried such hatred for this man, but at that moment she couldn’t hate him. The thing to hate, she realized with surprising wisdom, is war itself. She put her little hand in his, and held it tightly throughout the remainder of the show.
That experience changed Kondo’s whole attitude. Years later, as a college student in the States, it occurred to her that if he hadn’t said what he did, she would have been carrying this hate around with her all her life. So she tried to find him to thank him. She learned that after appearing on that show, he had been called in by the Pentagon and given hell, after which he had died in a mental hospital. She learned from his psychotherapist there that he had once sculptured a statue of a mushroom cloud, with a tear drop running down its side.”
http://www.humiliationstudies……00103.html
Apparently he “hadn’t died” since she would have nearly been in her 40’s in 1984 when Wilson died (unless she attended college rather late, of course). So how much of this is “distorted history” I’m unwilling to guess.
I’m way late to this thread as usual, but thank you, Siun, for consistently advancing a hard edge of conscience on this blog.
To follow up on the comments by Paddy Ashdown, I strongly recommend that everyone listen to all four installments of the series he presented on the BBC earlier this year, called Winning the Peace. Just go there and listen in order, and when you hear the final segment, on lost opportunities in Iraq, keep your blood pressure medication at the ready, as for this week’s Rolling Stone piece.
LS @ 46
I found an obituary…and a little bit more information. He was apparently originally from Ridgefield, NJ. And died in June 1983. There are pics of him on the site below.
http://www.mphpa.org/classic/C…..AP-111.htm
james @ 74
Still, a bad idea to have a Saudi flag on a footbal. Someone is gonna notice that it has Allah’s name on it and that they have been “fooled” into kicking Allah’s name around.
I believe that the British had the huge Sepoy Rebellion in India in 1857 because of rumors that the bullet cartridges were larded with pork fat. That angered the Muslims. When the Brits responded that they had used cows fat…the Hindus rose up!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I…..on_of_1857
what part of ‘war’ do we not comprehend?
war is not peaceable, it is not careful, it is
death
destruction
a victor and a loser is the best we can hope for
a loser and another loser is mostly where we get
Poppy Bush. And I always thought he was some kinda dolt. Except, of course, when compared to his idiotic off-spring.
But, he may be one of the great criminal minds. Or, he has very, very good advisors.