Premier?

3

dos

bairdly zed!

Trade ya, Steve-AR.

premier deux?

This guys an idiot.. what twisted logic.

Where is there proof certain about what will happen as the US draws down its forces?

How bout we give it a little try and take out 20k and see what happens.

shakespeare had it all wrong…”First we kill all the lobbyists…”

I swear, I despair sometimes of how to pry out the entrenched lobby trough in our government…

One could certainly argue that as we have increased our troop strength there has been MORE violence, it we decrease it there should be LESS violence. QED

If Democrats in Congress would stand up and grow a spine, their approval ratings would soar. Why can they not see this?

If we are going to get Jerry McNerney’s “Veto proof majority,” expect a lot more Democrats like Baird– and McNerney.

Bob in HI

bobschacht @ 11

If we are going to get Jerry McNerney’s “Veto proof majority,” expect a lot more Democrats like Baird– and McNerney.

Bob in HI

The way forward to save our country will not be a straight line.

Bairds disease.. it’s breaking out all through my party.

Bairds’s a fool.

Premature withdrawal? Another 6 months to give the government a chance?

This is a prescription to ensure U.S. troops prop up the Iraqi government until the end of time.

People like Brian Baird will be ” relegated to the dustbins of history” to their eternal shame.

WTF is going on with the leadership of the democratic party. TheY are scared sh#tle**!

It all reminds me of the times my parents told me about in Europe in the 1930’s. Even my Dad, a lawyer, on a government career track and all of his friends, poo-poo’d the danger they were facing; it couldn’t happen there. Well, my mom kept telling him and telling him….finally, suddenly one day, they were invaded, leaving my dad, alone (because everyone in the government had fled), shredding defense documents; and they were occupied for five years.

It is people in government, who are sometimes too close to the dangerous people, who know them socially; who believe those people are incapable, incompetent, or have no real agenda, that naively and conveniently pave the way for the really dangerous regimes who realize their weakness…it happens the world over.

There goes another Shrub pillar about why we invaded Iraq; Rep. Hoekstra was on ‘F*cker’ yesterday supporting a ‘Benevolent Dictator’ in Iraq, so much for a democratic Iraq…!!!

Wow 2 whole days there and he see’s so much progress.

Despite all the media hype… I don’t really see ANY tangible signs of “progress” in Iraq and I don’t think the people will either.

I suspect if they can express their contempt of the current policy at the ballet box they will make a very strong and unequivocal statement they want OUT NOW.

Does anyone really believe these generals? It’s been a string of lying CYA jerks one after the other starting with Richard Meiers sp?

Six more months?! Premature withdrawal? It’s been FIVE EFFIN YEARS YOU DOLT! How do we put pressure on this ignorant fool? Does he have a primary opponent?

bobschacht @ 11

If we are going to get Jerry McNerney’s “Veto proof majority,” expect a lot more Democrats like Baird– and McNerney.

Bob in HI

I commented on your blog, Bob!!!

LS @ 16

It all reminds me of the times my parents told me about in Europe in the 1930’s. Even my Dad, a lawyer, on a government career track and all of his friends, poo-poo’d the danger they were facing; it couldn’t happen there. Well, my mom kept telling him and telling him….finally, suddenly one day, they were invaded, leaving my dad, alone (because everyone in the government had fled), shredding defense documents; and they were occupied for five years.

It is people in government, who are sometimes too close to the dangerous people, who know them socially; who believe those people are incapable, incompetent, or have no real agenda, that naively and conveniently pave the way for the really dangerous regimes who realize their weakness…it happens the world over.

LS, I remember you writing about this before. I think about those times and compare them with the present often. I am shocked every day that people go about their lives without understanding what has happened to the United States. I try to talk about it; they listen for a polite period of time and move off the subject.

Must Watch for Bush Dog Dems

Inside the “surge”

Salee’s story

Boston1775 @ 22

LS @ 16

It all reminds me of the times my parents told me about in Europe in the 1930’s. Even my Dad, a lawyer, on a government career track and all of his friends, poo-poo’d the danger they were facing; it couldn’t happen there. Well, my mom kept telling him and telling him….finally, suddenly one day, they were invaded, leaving my dad, alone (because everyone in the government had fled), shredding defense documents; and they were occupied for five years.

It is people in government, who are sometimes too close to the dangerous people, who know them socially; who believe those people are incapable, incompetent, or have no real agenda, that naively and conveniently pave the way for the really dangerous regimes who realize their weakness…it happens the world over.

LS, I remember you writing about this before. I think about those times and compare them with the present often. I am shocked every day that people go about their lives without understanding what has happened to the United States. I try to talk about it; they listen for a polite period of time and move off the subject.

Well, I guess I grew up with it, and it was entrenched in my mind. My mom always told me, warned me, over and over, about their experience. It is their experience that I can offer, since I was not born at the time, but my dad was in government his whole life…they learned it the hard way. Many of that generation are now gone, and it is the disappearance of their memories and witness stories, of their reality, that needs to be kept alive; because our generation now does not have the experience fresh anymore.

Here’s what I think is really scary: There are TWO Americas. There’s the great unwashed, the America where one in four hasn’t read a book all year. The America that gets ALL of their information from the Beard and Rush and Rupert Fucking Murdoch and truly believes this shit. Then there’s us. We know the truth, but I despair of them ever knowing.

I guess candidates and representatives such as Baird think they are doing the right thing for the party in oder to solidify gains and increase Democratic majorities in 2008. That is the charitable explanation for their views; the quality of potential rationales craters from there. However, views such as stated by Baird are a view premised on the natural state of politics, and I often wonder if that is still the correct frame of thought. Due to the egregious and malicious policies and actions of this Administration, it is impossible to separate the issue of the war in Iraq from the other front line issues of torture, habeas corpus, 4th Amendment, domestic spying, corruption and was profiteering, theocratic politicizing of civil service government etc. My fear is that by continuing to treat these issues within the standard political framework of posture for the next election plays into the hands of those that brought us those ills, and put us in this situation, to begin with. This has happened time and time again. Every time the radical right wing of the Republican party grabs substantial power, they impose maximum dogmatic policy and standards. If they maintain power, they have accomplished what they intended and keep plowing further and further into their corporate/theological ideology; if they lose power, they have substantially shifted the baseline and acceptable norms in their direction. The Democrats, upon reclaiming power, are never able to fully reset things to where they should be; they always are forced to bring the country back to stability and start governance from the new baseline and ingrained norms.

If we keep giving up ground in this tug of war, we will soon be off the right (i.e. wrong) side of the field altogether. Our Constitutionally proscribed form of contemplated government, with it’s inherent checks, balances and wisdom, is in serious danger of being irretrievably broken. I am concerned that when you keep framing things in terms of “It is ok, it is a smart plan for electing more Democrats in 2008″, that you perpetuate what I have described here. Politicians, Democrats quite included, are, by nature, malleable shills; they will shift and do what they perceive as being the path of least resistance to election and reelection. Again, this is the charitable explanation for Baird; I am inclined to believe he is just a dumb chump. Even if positions such as Baird’s could grow our Democratic majority and even put us in the White House (and I think they are likely to effect the opposite), would they put us back on the track that the country should be on? The track that the country was founded and designed to be on? I think not. I think it is time to stand up for what is fundamentally right for both our country and our Constitution. Lets do what is right; not what is politically expedient. I would rather lose doing the right thing than go along on the path we have been for the last seven years; and that is what Baird stands for.

The DSCC called me today asking for a donation. I told them I won’t give money to the Democrats until they begin to stand up to republicans. I mentioned the FISA cave-in, the Alito and Roberts nominations and the fact that Bush is an extremely unpopular lame duck. (Although I think I said “sitting duck” on the phone.)

He said he would pass along my message.

I hope everyone else is telling them no when they ask for donations.

CTuttle @ 21

bobschacht @ 11

If we are going to get Jerry McNerney’s “Veto proof majority,” expect a lot more Democrats like Baird– and McNerney.

Bob in HI

I commented on your blog, Bob!!!

I just checked, and I don’t see it. Can you see it posted? Am I looking in the wrong place?

Bob in HI

Baird’s become a useful idiot, alright. He started out being an opponent of the war, and now seems to think that since we messed up the place, we need to fix it. No word on whether he’s in favor of a draft to help fix it, which I think is the only way we ever had a chance of fixing things using our military. More on Baird at Evergreen Politics:

http://www.evergreenpolitics.c…..e-wit.html

The article and the comments are both illuminating, I think.

I just finished writing an article about how the news seems to be lining up to support Bob Murray in the Crandall Canyon Mines fiasco. These days, the phrase “liberal media” seems like more of a canard than ever.

The Republicans still own the message/media.
We need airtime without paying Republican corporations for it.

bmaz, The story of LS’s parents is exactly why we must do what is right. Anything else actually loses ground – the Republicans just play these guys for fools.

bmaz @ 26

I guess candidates and representatives such as Baird think they are doing the right thing for the party in oder to solidify gains and increase Democratic majorities in 2008. That is the charitable explanation for their views; the quality of potential rationales craters from there. However, views such as stated by Baird are a view premised on the natural state of politics, and I often wonder if that is still the correct frame of thought. Due to the egregious and malicious policies and actions of this Administration, it is impossible to separate the issue of the war in Iraq from the other front line issues of torture, habeas corpus, 4th Amendment, domestic spying, corruption and was profiteering, theocratic politicizing of civil service government etc. My fear is that by continuing to treat these issues within the standard political framework of posture for the next election plays into the hands of those that brought us those ills, and put us in this situation, to begin with. This has happened time and time again. Every time the radical right wing of the Republican party grabs substantial power, they impose maximum dogmatic policy and standards. If they maintain power, they have accomplished what they intended and keep plowing further and further into their corporate/theological ideology; if they lose power, they have substantially shifted the baseline and acceptable norms in their direction. The Democrats, upon reclaiming power, are never able to fully reset things to where they should be; they always are forced to bring the country back to stability and start governance from the new baseline and ingrained norms.

If we keep giving up ground in this tug of war, we will soon be off the right (i.e. wrong) side of the field altogether. Our Constitutionally proscribed form of contemplated government, with it’s inherent checks, balances and wisdom, is in serious danger of being irretrievably broken. I am concerned that when you keep framing things in terms of “It is ok, it is a smart plan for electing more Democrats in 2008″, that you perpetuate what I have described here. Politicians, Democrats quite included, are, by nature, malleable shills; they will shift and do what they perceive as being the path of least resistance to election and reelection. Again, this is the charitable explanation for Baird; I am inclined to believe he is just a dumb chump. Even if positions such as Baird’s could grow our Democratic majority and even put us in the White House (and I think they are likely to effect the opposite), would they put us back on the track that the country should be on? The track that the country was founded and designed to be on? I think not. I think it is time to stand up for what is fundamentally right for both our country and our Constitution. Lets do what is right; not what is politically expedient. I would rather lose doing the right thing than go along on the path we have been for the last seven years; and that is what Baird stands for.

I’m going to have to read this a couple more times to get it all, but I like your thinking.

As awkward as it makes me feel to say it, Wolf Blitzer conducted an excellent interview.

bmaz, gets a gold star from this firepup..)

Eureka Springs @ 34

bmaz, gets a gold star from this firepup..)

Me too.
Politicians like Baird are superficial, shallow, and ignorant of what is happening. They are fools – plain and simple. Not a good situation.

Riesz Fischer @ 27

The DSCC called me today asking for a donation. I told them I won’t give money to the Democrats until they begin to stand up to republicans. I mentioned the FISA cave-in, the Alito and Roberts nominations and the fact that Bush is an extremely unpopular lame duck. (Although I think I said “sitting duck” on the phone.)

He said he would pass along my message.

I hope everyone else is telling them no when they ask for donations.

What was it Arlo said? “If one person does it, they’ll think you’re crazy. If two people do it, they’ll think you’re both faggots, and they won’t take either of you. But if three people do it . . . friends, you’ve got a movement.”

Darcy Burner and the other BlueAmerica candidates are good alternatives for any campaign donations looking for a place to go.

bmaz, What do you think it’s going to take to get Americans to wake up?

Cujo359 @ 29

Baird’s become a useful idiot, alright. He started out being an opponent of the war, and now seems to think that since we messed up the place, we need to fix it. No word on whether he’s in favor of a draft to help fix it, which I think is the only way we ever had a chance of fixing things using our military. More on Baird at Evergreen Politics:

http://www.evergreenpolitics.c…..e-wit.html

The article and the comments are both illuminating, I think.

I just finished writing an article about how the news seems to be lining up to support Bob Murray in the Crandall Canyon Mines fiasco. These days, the phrase “liberal media” seems like more of a canard than ever.

No such thing as ‘liberal media’ and there hasn’t been for…oh, the llast 40 years or so. There are only corporatist liars like The Beard, PumpkinHaid and the Tweetster among others.

There is us however and it’s up to us to pushback on this ‘Honorary Dog’. Not everybody got the memo on this tool as I had an interchange with someone at OpenLeft who said Baird was not a ‘Dog’ since he didn’t meet Chris’s definition of same.

I think I won that argument. Not that I’m happy about that since this ‘Dog’ is one piece of work and I’m wondering….

Where the fuck is Madame Speaker as these wreckers industriously work to destroy the Democratic Party’s standing with the only people who count.

The voters.

I think the huge mental hurdle many people have, including Dems, is seeing the administration as being malicious and destructive in the first place. And so they are not framing the problems correctly at all. As long as you see what Republicans are doing as basic party politics in trying to preserve their own gains (which any party does), instead of as the destruction of the republic into a police state with the wealthy skimming off, not just the cream, but everything, you simply aren’t going to tackle the issues, and you can easily “play the game” and get manipulated right into their hands. And it’s so frustrating..

Why is Baird still on the Actblue page?? He needs a primary challenger, pronto! If he is going to drink the kool-aide and defect, then there need to be consequences. He needs to be utterly alone, no support. His town hall meeting in Vancouver, WA needs to be filled with people who are holding him accountable for his defection. He ran as someone getting us out of Iraq. He now has blood on his hands and he needs to hear about it.

Boston1775 @ 22

LS @ 16

It all reminds me of the times my parents told me about in Europe in the 1930’s. Even my Dad, a lawyer, on a government career track and all of his friends, poo-poo’d the danger they were facing; it couldn’t happen there. Well, my mom kept telling him and telling him….finally, suddenly one day, they were invaded, leaving my dad, alone (because everyone in the government had fled), shredding defense documents; and they were occupied for five years.

It is people in government, who are sometimes too close to the dangerous people, who know them socially; who believe those people are incapable, incompetent, or have no real agenda, that naively and conveniently pave the way for the really dangerous regimes who realize their weakness…it happens the world over.

LS, I remember you writing about this before. I think about those times and compare them with the present often. I am shocked every day that people go about their lives without understanding what has happened to the United States. I try to talk about it; they listen for a polite period of time and move off the subject.

Maybe that’s because what we’re saying is the sort of thing you used to hear crazy people saying – the sort of thing that you almost never actually hear about in the news or in “polite” conversation. I certainly can’t believe I’m writing or saying what I am these days, and it’s probably not half as crazy-sounding as what I feel.

Yet here we are, wondering if the thing we thought of as our country is coming to an end.

john in sacramento @ 23

Must Watch for Bush Dog Dems

Inside the “surge”

Salee’s story

Watching Salee’s story was pretty hard. Can’t imagine having to live it.

To quote the Jedi:

You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

Oh, and this Deaniac would like to express his appreciation for FDL not buying into Hillary’s blatant attempt to sandbag Howard Dean in Florida.

I for one do NOT want the Democratic nominee to be decided in February, and I don’t give a rat’s patoot that the Beltway has already anointed her.

We elected Howard as DNC Chairman. HANDS OFF!

Bill R. @ 40

Why is Baird still on the Actblue page?? He needs a primary challenger, pronto! If he is going to drink the kool-aide and defect, then there need to be consequences. He needs to be utterly alone, no support. His town hall meeting in Vancouver, WA needs to be filled with people who are holding him accountable for his defection. He ran as someone getting us out of Iraq. He now has blood on his hands and he needs to hear about it.

get the hook

peanutbutter @ 39

I think the huge mental hurdle many people have, including Dems, is seeing the administration as being malicious and destructive in the first place. And so they are not framing the problems correctly at all. As long as you see what Republicans are doing as basic party politics in trying to preserve their own gains (which any party does), instead of as the destruction of the republic into a police state with the wealthy skimming off, not just the cream, but everything, you simply aren’t going to tackle the issues, and you can easily “play the game” and get manipulated right into their hands. And it’s so frustrating..

Just keep pointing out the truth. The truth of this political era is so obvious, you can’t even make it up.

They usually keep me caged at The Next Hurrah; but since Emptywheel is away for the weekend, I am roaming around creating trouble. Since, unlike the regulars at TNH (where most of this comment was originally posted), most of you don’t know the unspoken conclusion that I was inferring, it is this. Get out of Iraq now. Impeach Albertoad Gonzales now and use the evidence gathered therefrom to impeach Cheney. Reinstate full habeas corpus and Fourth Amendment protections to the Constitution now. Fix our infrastructure and school system top to bottom now. If you have to raise taxes or reapportion the load of taxes tho accomplish this; do it. This country is at a fulcrum point and can go either way; but we are going to tip one way or another profoundly. This is the moment; lets go the right way.

Bmaz,
These are the same fears I harbored in 1983 as we entered Constitutional Law.
Thanks for expressing it so eloquently.
PS Start a blog already although I run into your commments everywhere. YOU DO make a difference.

bmaz @ 46

They usually keep me caged at The Next Hurrah; but since Emptywheel is away for the weekend, I am roaming around creating trouble. Since, unlike the regulars at TNH (where most of this comment was originally posted), most of you don’t know the unspoken conclusion that I was inferring, it is this. Get out of Iraq now. Impeach Albertoad Gonzales now and use the evidence gathered therefrom to impeach Cheney. Reinstate full habeas corpus and Fourth Amendment protections to the Constitution now. Fix our infrastructure and school system top to bottom now. If you have to raise taxes or reapportion the load of taxes tho accomplish this; do it. This country is at a fulcrum point and can go either way; but we are going to tip one way or another profoundly. This is the moment; lets go the right way.

I’m with you!

peanutbutter, Doesn’t it always go back to the big lie? Why we went to Iraq..

Dems wont admit it much less talk about it freely nor demand acountability or express anger about it. How can they be expected to quit drinking when they coddle the drunks and want to run the still?

Cujo359 @ 41

Boston1775 @ 22

LS, I remember you writing about this before. I think about those times and compare them with the present often. I am shocked every day that people go about their lives without understanding what has happened to the United States. I try to talk about it; they listen for a polite period of time and move off the subject.

Maybe that’s because what we’re saying is the sort of thing you used to hear crazy people saying – the sort of thing that you almost never actually hear about in the news or in “polite” conversation. I certainly can’t believe I’m writing or saying what I am these days, and it’s probably not half as crazy-sounding as what I feel.

Yet here we are, wondering if the thing we thought of as our country is coming to an end.

It won’t come to an end, if the facts are repeatedly brought out. Luckily, we have access to what is happening in real time. In past eras, they didn’t know what was happening until it was too late. Nowadays, you get accused of conspiracy theory when you point to the truth, even when you present facts; which come to light almost everyday…more evidence…more evidence…it is too scary to confront the facts, but the alternative is much scarier.

bmaz @ 46

They usually keep me caged at The Next Hurrah; but since Emptywheel is away for the weekend, I am roaming around creating trouble. Since, unlike the regulars at TNH (where most of this comment was originally posted), most of you don’t know the unspoken conclusion that I was inferring, it is this. Get out of Iraq now. Impeach Albertoad Gonzales now and use the evidence gathered therefrom to impeach Cheney. Reinstate full habeas corpus and Fourth Amendment protections to the Constitution now. Fix our infrastructure and school system top to bottom now. If you have to raise taxes or reapportion the load of taxes tho accomplish this; do it. This country is at a fulcrum point and can go either way; but we are going to tip one way or another profoundly. This is the moment; lets go the right way.

Hear, hear, or here, here.

One man’s useful idiot is another man’s feckless douchebag.

-GSD

“Can’t get fooled again”…wanna bet?

Brian Baird just cannot seem to soak up enough media attention now that he’s donning Joe Lieberman’s jaunty fedora

I think Krautheimer’s twirly hat would be more appropriate.

LS @ 53

“Can’t get fooled again”…wanna bet?

No, I’d never take that bet!

Well, if we can’t get heard, that great list of bmaz will not get done.
Pressure from more Americans is the only way to get out of Iraq, impeach Gonzales, etc.

Rumor has it Michael Chertoff is going to be shuffled into the Gonzales spot.

Gonzales will probably be made warden at Guantanimo or something.

-GSD

Has Baird endorsed Hillary or Barack?

bobschacht @ 11

If we are going to get Jerry McNerney’s “Veto proof majority,” expect a lot more Democrats like Baird– and McNerney.

Bob in HI

The “veto-proof majority” comes from actions, not mere numbers. I.e., folks like McNerney & Baird aren’t part of a “veto-proof majority” since they don’t vote in a way that Bush would have to veto!! They just vote along with the Republican talking points.

GSD @ 57

Rumor has it Michael Chertoff is going to be shuffled into the Gonzales spot.

Gonzales will probably be made warden at Guantanimo or something.

-GSD

Wow. That’s comforting. Where’d you hear that?

GSD @ 52

One man’s useful idiot is another man’s feckless douchebag.

I don’t think Baird’s feckless. I think he’s just succumbed to that idea that since we’re responsible for what’s happened to Iraq, we’re responsible for fixing it. He just seems to have missed the idea that it’s just not possible for us to fix it. In the end, no matter what we do, even occupying the place with overwhelming force and pacifying it, it’s the Iraqis who must end this thing. All we can do is keep a lid on it, and frankly I don’t think we’ll be much good at that for much longer.

Why is that important? By calling him a douchebag we ignore the reason why he’s chosen this untenable position. The reality is, I think, that he’s chosen it for moral reasons. He just ignores the realities and engages in wishful thinking.

I’d be all for the occupation if I though it was helping. It’s not and it can’t be. That’s what we need to hammer home, I think.

GSD @ 57

Rumor has it Michael Chertoff is going to be shuffled into the Gonzales spot.

Gonzales will probably be made warden at Guantanimo or something.

-GSD

I really dislike that guy but now that you mention it, I can see that happening.

Skeletor

Cujo359 at 41, I know you’re right. I feel it when people try to be polite and get me back to the real world.

At this rate, Bush can announce another fucking SURGE and get away with it, too.

Boston1775 @ 37

bmaz, What do you think it’s going to take to get Americans to wake up?

Funny you should ask.

Sept. 17-23 is “Constitution Week.”
I think most people don’t realize what BushCo is doing to the Constitution. I think we — all Firepups! — should focus attention on getting the word out that week, with letters to the editor, opinion essays, special events, leaflets, and more.

I am so dismayed by the Democrat’s (and Republican’s) lackadaisical attitude towards BushCo violations of the Constitution that I may make more contributions to organizations like the ACLU, who are actually involved in court challenges to BushCo executive over-reach, than to political candidates.

Bob in HI

TeddySanFran @ 64

At this rate, Bush can announce another fucking SURGE and get away with it, too.

I know!

how can they believe a word out of his freakin’ mouth?

bobschacht @ 28

CTuttle @ 21

I commented on your blog, Bob!!!

I just checked, and I don’t see it. Can you see it posted? Am I looking in the wrong place?

Bob in HI

Comment no. 6, Bob!!!

FOX:
Pay attention. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) recently announced its final “no-match” regulation, which takes effect Sept. 14, designed to make it harder for illegal immigrants to use phony Social Security numbers to get a job. Letters will soon be flowing from the Social Security Administration (SSA), DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff said, to notify businesses that an employee’s name and Social Security number don’t match government records.

Deacon Blues @ 25

Here’s what I think is really scary: There are TWO Americas. There’s the great unwashed, the America where one in four hasn’t read a book all year. The America that gets ALL of their information from the Beard and Rush and Rupert Fucking Murdoch and truly believes this shit. Then there’s us. We know the truth, but I despair of them ever knowing.

One of the things that drives me crazy is when I go to pick up a rental car, or am at a restaurant with a bar, or some other locale with a “public tv,” and it’s tuned to FOX.

I.e. FOX reaches far more folks than those who willingly tune to it. [And at this point, if the tv were tuned to CNN, that wouldn’t be much better.]

TeddySanFran @ 64

At this rate, Bush can announce another fucking SURGE and get away with it, too.

This freidman unit will be all about overthrowing Democracy in Iraq. Alawi has been on cspan most of the day.. via some phone call.. I can’t understand most of what he says.

bmaz @ 46

They usually keep me caged at The Next Hurrah; but since Emptywheel is away for the weekend, I am roaming around creating trouble. Since, unlike the regulars at TNH (where most of this comment was originally posted), most of you don’t know the unspoken conclusion that I was inferring, it is this. Get out of Iraq now. Impeach Albertoad Gonzales now and use the evidence gathered therefrom to impeach Cheney. Reinstate full habeas corpus and Fourth Amendment protections to the Constitution now. Fix our infrastructure and school system top to bottom now. If you have to raise taxes or reapportion the load of taxes tho accomplish this; do it. This country is at a fulcrum point and can go either way; but we are going to tip one way or another profoundly. This is the moment; lets go the right way.

Right on!
Or, as we used to say, Right Arm!

Bob in HI

CTuttle @ 67

bobschacht @ 28

I just checked, and I don’t see it. Can you see it posted? Am I looking in the wrong place?

Bob in HI

Comment no. 6, Bob!!!

I don’t see it, either, even when I strip the “#178″ from the URL. Comments end at 5.

Eureka Springs @ 70

TeddySanFran @ 64

At this rate, Bush can announce another fucking SURGE and get away with it, too.

This freidman unit will be all about overthrowing Democracy in Iraq. Alawi has been on cspan most of the day.. via some phone call.. I can’t understand most of what he says.

have you heard any mention of his PR contract when they broadcast that phone call?

This morning, I thought he was going to take questions but, no.

Cause and Effect:

American troops = cause

Ineffective, worthless government = effect

Vicious Circle:

cause—>effect—>cause…

Cujo359 @ 72

CTuttle @ 67

Comment no. 6, Bob!!!

I don’t see it, either, even when I strip the “#178″ from the URL. Comments end at 5.

It still says 5 comments but if you scroll down, it’s there!

CTuttle @ 67

bobschacht @ 28

I just checked, and I don’t see it. Can you see it posted? Am I looking in the wrong place?

Bob in HI

Comment no. 6, Bob!!!

{sigh} I refreshed the screen, and I still see only 5 comments. But I know the site manager.

I’ll try to be patient :-(

Bob in HI

Jonathan @ 74

Cause and Effect:

American troops = cause

Ineffective, worthless government = effect

Vicious Circle:

cause—>effect—>cause…

I’d add in escalating

a Vicious Escalating Circle

bobschacht @ 76

CTuttle @ 67

Comment no. 6, Bob!!!

{sigh} I refreshed the screen, and I still see only 5 comments. But I know the site manager.

I’ll try to be patient :-(

Bob in HI

Everytime I click on your link, it does show my comment…!

ccmask @ 68

FOX:
Pay attention. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) recently announced its final “no-match” regulation, which takes effect Sept. 14, designed to make it harder for illegal immigrants to use phony Social Security numbers to get a job. Letters will soon be flowing from the Social Security Administration (SSA), DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff said, to notify businesses that an employee’s name and Social Security number don’t match government records.

Analysis of the effect of the no-match clampdown. See especially the comment from tony Los Alto California ‘refuting’ everything in the article by spouting Fox, Limbaugh, etc. Some of these flamers have no clue that literate people are going to read their tripe.

I think they will install Allawi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyad_Allawi

60 U.S. soldiers dead in Iraq since Congress went on vacation.

CTuttle @ 75

Cujo359 @ 72

I don’t see it, either, even when I strip the “#178″ from the URL. Comments end at 5.

It still says 5 comments but if you scroll down, it’s

Nope. Scrolled all the way to the bottom. The last comment is number 5. My guess is that your comment is awaiting moderation or some such thing. It used to work that way here when a comment tripped the “magic word” switch and went into moderation.

LS @ 60

GSD @ 57

Rumor has it Michael Chertoff is going to be shuffled into the Gonzales spot.

Gonzales will probably be made warden at Guantanimo or something.

-GSD

Wow. That’s comforting. Where’d you hear that?

Mike Malloy was mentioning this, sourcing it as as ‘rumor,’ but still crediting it’s potential truth on AAR last night. Is this a source? ?

Cujo359 @ 82

CTuttle @ 75

It still says 5 comments but if you scroll down, it’s

Nope. Scrolled all the way to the bottom. The last comment is number 5. My guess is that your comment is awaiting moderation or some such thing. It used to work that way here when a comment tripped the “magic word” switch and went into moderation.

Heh, it must be my FISA reference, the only ‘magic’ word I utilized…!!!

Watching Baird makes me feel like I’m tuning in to German Parliament’s rationalization to their government in 1932. Of course Iraq’s neighbors want the US to stay. They don’t want their money, resources and human toll to be spent on Iraq. They need a sucker in there to use their money, resources and human toll. That would be us.

I truly cannot tell the difference between Democrats and Republicans on the US position on this occupation. Can anyone point out the difference between GW’s talking points and Baird’s, other than Baird has better command of the English language. I can’t find it.

How do they get this way when they go to Washington? I think they are all given a special Lie Serum – this is the Truth Serum on its head. It got messed up and the result is people speak in opposition to their deep beliefs.

Mauimom @ 69

Deacon Blues @ 25

Here’s what I think is really scary: There are TWO Americas. There’s the great unwashed, the America where one in four hasn’t read a book all year. The America that gets ALL of their information from the Beard and Rush and Rupert Fucking Murdoch and truly believes this shit. Then there’s us. We know the truth, but I despair of them ever knowing.

One of the things that drives me crazy is when I go to pick up a rental car, or am at a restaurant with a bar, or some other locale with a “public tv,” and it’s tuned to FOX.

I.e. FOX reaches far more folks than those who willingly tune to it. [And at this point, if the tv were tuned to CNN, that wouldn’t be much better.]

I’m sorry, but I refuse to believe that 25% FOX news BS. I live in Iowa, the best informed citizens I have encountered in 22 states and several countries. The Iowa polls show 51% rethuglican support for ending the fiaso(QUAGMIRE) yet that leaves 25%. Too simplistic for me.There are other factors to consider… ingrained patriotism, life long republicans, denial, you name it!

Elliott @ 77

Jonathan @ 74

Cause and Effect:

American troops = cause

Ineffective, worthless government = effect

Vicious Circle:

cause—>effect—>cause…

I’d add in escalating

a Vicious Escalating Circle

Baird and McNerney believe this:

cause = ineffective, worthless government

effect = American troops

Thus, their FALSE view is that the central problem is the Iraqi government.

False, because the worthlessness of the Iraqi government is the RESULT of there being American troops in Iraq.

CTuttle @ 84

Cujo359 @ 82

Nope. Scrolled all the way to the bottom. The last comment is number 5. My guess is that your comment is awaiting moderation or some such thing. It used to work that way here when a comment tripped the “magic word” switch and went into moderation.

Heh, it must be my FISA reference, the only ‘magic’ word I utilized…!!!

or maybe you imagined you posted it *g*

Interesting Castro language from Chavez…

He has not been seen in public since before the operation, though he has appeared in photographs and eight videos, the last of which aired on June 5.

“Those who want him to die will be frustrated, because Fidel Castro will never die,” said Chavez, one of the few who visited the revolutionary leader at his sickbed.

Chavez said that Castro “will always live among the people that fight for a better destiny. He will always live in the people of Cuba, of Venezuela, and of America.”

http://timesofindia.indiatimes…..311186.cms

Elliott @ 73

Eureka Springs @ 70

This freidman unit will be all about overthrowing Democracy in Iraq. Alawi has been on cspan most of the day.. via some phone call.. I can’t understand most of what he says.

have you heard any mention of his PR contract when they broadcast that phone call?

This morning, I thought he was going to take questions but, no.

*crickets*

QuakerGirl @ 85

Watching Baird makes me feel like I’m tuning in to German Parliament’s rationalization to their government in 1932. Of course Iraq’s neighbors want the US to stay. They don’t want their money, resources and human toll to be spent on Iraq. They need a sucker in there to use their money, resources and human toll. That would be us.

I truly cannot tell the difference between Democrats and Republicans on the US position on this occupation. Can anyone point out the difference between GW’s talking points and Baird’s, other than Baird has better command of the English language. I can’t find it.

How do they get this way when they go to Washington? I think they are all given a special Lie Serum – this is the Truth Serum on its head. It got messed up and the result is people speak in opposition to their deep beliefs.

My congresscritter certainly has avoided the Kool Aid, I’m content with her votes and views!!!

Baird, McNerney, the Blue Dogs, The Bush dogs, Lieberman, Pryor,; the list is endless. We need as many Dems a possible to be elected in ‘08 but that doesn’t mean progressives can’t show some teeth. Pick one scum bag Dem and take him out in ‘08. I think Chris Carney should be that person even if it is a progressive write-in and a Thug wins the district.

bobschacht @ 65

Boston1775 @ 37

bmaz, What do you think it’s going to take to get Americans to wake up?

Funny you should ask.

Sept. 17-23 is “Constitution Week.”
I think most people don’t realize what BushCo is doing to the Constitution. I think we — all Firepups! — should focus attention on getting the word out that week, with letters to the editor, opinion essays, special events, leaflets, and more.

I am so dismayed by the Democrat’s (and Republican’s) lackadaisical attitude towards BushCo violations of the Constitution that I may make more contributions to organizations like the ACLU, who are actually involved in court challenges to BushCo executive over-reach, than to political candidates.

Bob in HI

Excellent suggestion Bob. Constitution Week would be a perfect time, venue and forum for a push to get the word out. It sould be a Netroots priority to get the word out and about. Here are two more worthy places for any contributions to the effort, in addition to the ACLU. These are the two citizen groups fighting on behalf of the plaintiffs, and all of us, in the 9th Circuit privacy cases you have heard and read so much about:

CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS
666 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, NY 10012-2317
Phone: (212) 614-6438
Fax: (212) 614-6499
Email: kadidal@ccr-ny.org

Electronic Frontier Foundation
454 Shotwell Street
San Francisco CA 94110-1914 USA
Phone: 1 415 436 9333

QuakerGirl @ 85

How do they get this way when they go to Washington? I think they are all given a special Lie Serum – this is the Truth Serum on its head. It got messed up and the result is people speak in opposition to their deep beliefs.

I think things start to look different when you’re the one who’s helping to set things in motion. From here, it’s easy to see that the occupation isn’t working, but then we don’t have to face ourselves when we’ve voted to end the occupation, and a bloodbath follows.

Yes, that bloodbath is probably inevitable anyway, but it’s only really inevitable when it actually happens. Meanwhile, it’s happening slowly, and we can safely ignore it because it’s become background noise. Once we’ve left, it will probably be worse for a while, and there will be plenty of folks willing to blame those who made the decision to leave for the outcome. That’s why, if there’s any straw to grasp at, there will be decisionmakers willing to grasp it.

My congresscritter certainly has avoided the Kool Aid, I’m content with her votes and views!!!

CT, Did you get the impression that your mention of “inherent contempt” was a new concept for her?

Should Chertoff replace Gonzo…let’s keep in mind the Chiquita terrorism funding story, as well as the fact that Joe Hagin, is a “Rove-like figure” with powers rivaling Rove, in the WH, and was a past senior executive at Chiquita. Just something to keep tucked away…

Steve-AR @ 92

Pick one scum bag Dem and take him out in ‘08. I think Chris Carney should be that person even if it is a progressive write-in and a Thug wins the district.

I agree. Repubs are vicious fascists. A lot of Dems are different only because they say they aren’t vicious fascists.

Progressives need to become vicious. Not fascists. But vicious.

The goal may be to restore the Age of Reason.

The reality is that the Age of Reason is DEAD.

Steve-AR:
Pick one scum bag Dem and take him out in ‘08. I think Chris Carney should be that person even if it is a progressive write-in and a Thug wins the district.

Probably right, but — dang! — that’s my district. Back to square one, huh?

Jonathan @ 97

Steve-AR @ 92

Pick one scum bag Dem and take him out in ‘08. I think Chris Carney should be that person even if it is a progressive write-in and a Thug wins the district.

I agree. Repubs are vicious fascists. A lot of Dems are different only because they say they aren’t vicious fascists.

Progressives need to become vicious. Not fascists. But vicious.

The goal may be to restore the Age of Reason.

The reality is that the Age of Reason is DEAD.

No, we don’t need to be vicious. We do need to be clear, though, that they work for us and not the other way round. They also need to understand that we have other choices besides supporting them.

At the risk of boring folks who have seen this before, that’s the important point – Democratic officeholders and candidates can’t be allowed to take progressives for granted. A few strategic lessons (and Carney would be a good one) will probably do the trick. A few of these people really do need to go, and I’d say at this point if replacing them with Republicans is how that’s done, we’re probably no worse off than we are now.

I’d prefer to replace them with real progressives, though.

Anyway, there’s one party full of worthless bastards already. I’d hate to turn the Democratic Party into another one.

revmama @ 98

Steve-AR:
Pick one scum bag Dem and take him out in ‘08. I think Chris Carney should be that person even if it is a progressive write-in and a Thug wins the district.

Probably right, but — dang! — that’s my district. Back to square one, huh?

If you want to keep Carney as your Congressman, you’re on your own, I’m afraid. I certainly won’t do anything to help him — or his GOP opponent. My money, pittance though it is, will be spent elsewhere. And Carney got money from me last time, on BlueAmerica’s endorsement.

I’m not sure “vicious” is the word we need. Maybe “merciless” is better.

TeddySanFran @ 100

If you want to keep Carney as your Congressman, you’re on your own, I’m afraid. I certainly won’t do anything to help him — or his GOP opponent. My money, pittance though it is, will be spent elsewhere. And Carney got money from me last time, on BlueAmerica’s endorsement.

I didn’t say I wanted to keep him. Knowing that district a little bit, I don’t see a more progressive person being electable there, sadly. We will try to bring some pressure to bear, but even the Dems there are pretty conservative. I’m just sayin’ …

cleter @ 101

I’m not sure “vicious” is the word we need. Maybe “merciless” is better.

Personally, I favor “relentless”. We aren’t going away. It’s time Congress realized that relentless is what they need to be, too. I’m starting to read Jerry McNerney’s chat from last night. It’s quite clear already that he doesn’t get that. I’m hoping that by the end he will have seen the light, but I’m not holding my breath.

bmaz @ 93

bobschacht @ 65

Funny you should ask.

Sept. 17-23 is “Constitution Week.”
I think most people don’t realize what BushCo is doing to the Constitution. I think we — all Firepups! — should focus attention on getting the word out that week, with letters to the editor, opinion essays, special events, leaflets, and more.

I am so dismayed by the Democrat’s (and Republican’s) lackadaisical attitude towards BushCo violations of the Constitution that I may make more contributions to organizations like the ACLU, who are actually involved in court challenges to BushCo executive over-reach, than to political candidates.

Bob in HI

Excellent suggestion Bob. Constitution Week would be a perfect time, venue and forum for a push to get the word out. It sould be a Netroots priority to get the word out and about. Here are two more worthy places for any contributions to the effort, in addition to the ACLU. These are the two citizen groups fighting on behalf of the plaintiffs, and all of us, in the 9th Circuit privacy cases you have heard and read so much about:

CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS
666 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, NY 10012-2317
Phone: (212) 614-6438
Fax: (212) 614-6499
Email: kadidal@ccr-ny.org

Electronic Frontier Foundation
454 Shotwell Street
San Francisco CA 94110-1914 USA
Phone: 1 415 436 9333

Speaking of the Ninth Circuit, Bmaz, when is their ruling due out? Any idea?

I’m talking to myself again, so clearly it’s time for a new thread.

Cujo359 @ 103

cleter @ 101

I’m not sure “vicious” is the word we need. Maybe “merciless” is better.

Personally, I favor “relentless”. We aren’t going away. It’s time Congress realized that relentless is what they need to be, too. I’m starting to read Jerry McNerney’s chat from last night. It’s quite clear already that he doesn’t get that. I’m hoping that by the end he will have seen the light, but I’m not holding my breath.

I like ‘relentless’, too, persistent works also… Remember, we’re the party of compassion and mercy, hence, a softer, yet, firm, tone is more appropriate!!! *g*

revmama @ 102

TeddySanFran @ 100

If you want to keep Carney as your Congressman, you’re on your own, I’m afraid. I certainly won’t do anything to help him — or his GOP opponent. My money, pittance though it is, will be spent elsewhere. And Carney got money from me last time, on BlueAmerica’s endorsement.

I didn’t say I wanted to keep him. Knowing that district a little bit, I don’t see a more progressive person being electable there, sadly. We will try to bring some pressure to bear, but even the Dems there are pretty conservative. I’m just sayin’ …

I feel your pain, I am going to have to vote for Mark Pryor, however making an example of Carney will be an object lesson for Dems. Maybe make some think ahead to 2010.

CTuttle @ 104

bmaz @ 93

Excellent suggestion Bob. Constitution Week would be a perfect time, venue and forum for a push to get the word out. It sould be a Netroots priority to get the word out and about. Here are two more worthy places for any contributions to the effort, in addition to the ACLU. These are the two citizen groups fighting on behalf of the plaintiffs, and all of us, in the 9th Circuit privacy cases you have heard and read so much about:

CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS
666 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, NY 10012-2317
Phone: (212) 614-6438
Fax: (212) 614-6499
Email: kadidal@ccr-ny.org

Electronic Frontier Foundation
454 Shotwell Street
San Francisco CA 94110-1914 USA
Phone: 1 415 436 9333

Speaking of the Ninth Circuit, Bmaz, when is their ruling due out? Any idea?

No clue. Was only argued on August 15 though; so it will be a bit. Mid-September is the earliest I would think, may be much longer than that. Hate to say it, but your guess is as good as mine, and I live and practice in the 9th Circuit. Sorry….

Mr Baird,
Our troops do deserve more time,
more time at home with their families.

bmaz @ 93

bobschacht @ 65

It should be a Netroots priority to get the word out and about.

The winners of the 2006 election pay no attention to Netroots power. That’s the complaint. We need to show them Netroots power if there is such a thing. How about making 9/11 a “No Buy Day”, a day when no one buys anything, not a newspaper, not lunch (brown bag it). You get the idea, but do you like it enough to put Netroots power to the test? It’s a risk, maybe throwing a protest and no one comes. If it succeeds to the point of being noticed, it could change both parties. No guts. No glory.

I knew Brian Baird years ago when we both lived in Tacoma and worked on environmental matters in that toxic community. His recent positions are a surprise and very disappointing. One possible explanation — not an excuse, really, but an explanation — may be his district, which is conservative, and towards whose inclinations he may be tacking as election season rolls around. I don’t know, but I suggest this is one plausible basis. He does not have liberal Seattle to prop him up.

bmaz @ 93

bobschacht @ 65

Funny you should ask.

Sept. 17-23 is “Constitution Week.”
I think most people don’t realize what BushCo is doing to the Constitution. I think we — all Firepups! — should focus attention on getting the word out that week, with letters to the editor, opinion essays, special events, leaflets, and more.

I am so dismayed by the Democrat’s (and Republican’s) lackadaisical attitude towards BushCo violations of the Constitution that I may make more contributions to organizations like the ACLU, who are actually involved in court challenges to BushCo executive over-reach, than to political candidates.

Bob in HI

Excellent suggestion Bob. Constitution Week would be a perfect time, venue and forum for a push to get the word out. It sould be a Netroots priority to get the word out and about. Here are two more worthy places for any contributions to the effort, in addition to the ACLU. These are the two citizen groups fighting on behalf of the plaintiffs, and all of us, in the 9th Circuit privacy cases you have heard and read so much about:

CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS
666 Broadway, 7th Floor
New York, NY 10012-2317
Phone: (212) 614-6438
Fax: (212) 614-6499
Email: kadidal@ccr-ny.org

Electronic Frontier Foundation
454 Shotwell Street
San Francisco CA 94110-1914 USA
Phone: 1 415 436 9333

I certainly add my “amen” to your suggestion of the CCR. But who or what is the Electronic Frontier Foundation?

Bob in HI

Bob Schacht – Bob here is EFF website. I am crappy at links, so it is a url. I have only talked to the legal people there, but they were very good and very cool people and they are doing heroic work on the ATT suit in the face of long odds. I would recommend them for that effort alone, but as you will see when you go to their site, they are active in several communications and digital areas. There are a couple of links on the homepage for their pages on the ATT case specifically. On a side note, if I recall correctly, I saw some time back, maybe during the Libby trial, can’t remember, that you had been at NAU for a while. Is that correct and, if so, what do you think of it academically these days. I was undergrad at ASU 75 to 79, when I graduated; probably wouldn’t (read didn’t) have considered NAU at that time even though I love Flagstaff and the campus. I know they have grown in both size and stature since then. My daughter will be heading off somewhere in 3 years and has already said she likes Flag and NAU. She is bright enough to go pretty much anywhere (well, at least so far-heh heh we shall see, eh). Presumption so far would be science/liberal arts program of some sort. Thoughts?

http://www.eff.org/

This representative is an example of why the congress is held is such low regard. Why does someone who is opposed to the war now an advocate for keeping it going? He should be pressed on his feelings about the casualties (ALL casualties)to come from “surging” another six months or so. His actions make me wonder where his loyalties lie. With the “serious” people who engineered this fiasco or those who are asked to bear the misery and death. But who knows maybe somebody told him he had to do it and he’s not strong enough to oppose.

bmaz @ 113

Bob Schacht – Bob here is EFF website. I am crappy at links, so it is a url. I have only talked to the legal people there, but they were very good and very cool people and they are doing heroic work on the ATT suit in the face of long odds. I would recommend them for that effort alone, but as you will see when you go to their site, they are active in several communications and digital areas. There are a couple of links on the homepage for their pages on the ATT case specifically. On a side note, if I recall correctly, I saw some time back, maybe during the Libby trial, can’t remember, that you had been at NAU for a while. Is that correct and, if so, what do you think of it academically these days. I was undergrad at ASU 75 to 79, when I graduated; probably wouldn’t (read didn’t) have considered NAU at that time even though I love Flagstaff and the campus. I know they have grown in both size and stature since then. My daughter will be heading off somewhere in 3 years and has already said she likes Flag and NAU. She is bright enough to go pretty much anywhere (well, at least so far-heh heh we shall see, eh). Presumption so far would be science/liberal arts program of some sort. Thoughts?

http://www.eff.org/

Thanks for the EFF reference– but that was almost a week ago that the hearing took place. What happened?

Yes, I was at NAU for about 17 years, 1987-2004. NAU may not have as many big name researchers as UA or ASU, but it is an excellent school for undergrads. There is more attention to teaching at NAU than there is at UA or ASU. Besides, its a better environment to live in than ASU or UA. If your daughter likes it, good! I recommend it!

Bob in HI

Bob in HI

Bob – Thanks, appreciate the opinion; and I concur wholeheartedly about the atmosphere and environment of the respective campuses. Both ASU and UA have turned into urban concrete jungles, especially ASU, and have to much of a big city, as opposed to university, feel to them.

As to the 9th Circuit, jeez you never know how quickly, or how slowly, they will issue an opinion. I don’t think I would expect it anytime much before mid-September of so. No clue.

As a measure of his usefulness, Baird got a nod for “seriousness” in Charles Krauthammer’s Friday column. Like clockwork.

Democratic leaders are not “usefull idiots”, but people who vote for democrats are. The democratic leaders work for the military industial complex just like the repugs, when will you people wake up, they are not saying things like Baird says because they believe it, they are saying these things because they get money to say them.

Baird does have liberal Olympia to prop him up, but too many of these younger single folks don’t vote, unfortunately.

I wonder if the Rethugs will put up a phony third party spoiler “anti-war” candidate like they did with Unseold on gun control in 1994. That trick probably wouldn’t work again in the internet age.