(Post inspired by this: "President Bush said Saturday the surge of U.S. troops in Iraq, which he set in motion at the beginning of the year, is showing successes and proves that “conditions on the ground can change.”)
If you think about it, one of the most crucial things we don’t know about this misbegotten Iraqi adventure tells us everything anyone really needs to know about it. We know to a regularly updated certainty how many American soldiers have died: 3723. But we don’t know for sure how many Iraqis have died. As far as documented deaths are concerned, we’re up to at least an appalling 70,604. But everyone admits that is far too low, given the difficulties of accurate documentation in a war zone. The best-known attempt to quantify the “excess mortality” in Iraq — bluntly, the number of dead people who probably would not be dead had the invasion not occurred — is that published in the Lancet. This study concluded:
We estimate that as of July, 2006, there have been 654 965 (392 979–942 636) excess Iraqi deaths as a consequence of the war, which corresponds to 2·5% of the population in the study area. Of post-invasion deaths, 601 027 (426 369–793 663) were due to violence, the most common cause being gunfire.
The Lancet numbers are of course “controversial,” in the sense that they are shocking and therefore our good friends the right-wing-war supporters, with their well-advertised near-fanatical devotion to truth and objectivity, don’t like them and therefore like to pretend that the Lancet study has been “fisked” and “debunked.”
If you’ve not been following the sordid saga of wingnut attacks on the Lancet study, the latest installment is here. For the backstory just go to Tim Lambert’s place and scroll down. And down. And then, yes, down some more, OK, then, head into the archives, and scroll down… Look, it ain’t pretty, and we all owe Tim at least a beer for keeping an eye on this madness. The upshot is, there’s no serious reason to doubt the Lancet’s estimation.
(Incidentally, I am setting up a Devastating Point. Please bear with me a moment.)
Now — and this is getting to the good bit, trust me — one of the consistent refrains in the anti-Lancet Wingnut Chorus is that the study’s authors refuse to “release the raw data” the report is based on:
In any event, the Lancet authors refuse to release their figures. Now folks, this isn’t like KFC protecting its secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices. Releasing the data would make everything transparent and settle this once and for all, which is exactly why the Lancet and the authors keep it under armed guard on a remote desert island.
Just read Tim on this bit of deceptive crappola for why it’s irrelevant. But bear in kind this: the wingnut insistence upon SEEING THE RAW DATA. Oh, it’s very thrilling, to claim your Mortal Enemies are Hiding the True Facts by Using Statistical Shenanigans!
I myself am willing to even concede this. To a point. Let me spell out the point. Here indeed I have a suggestion, a modest proposal, if you will: If you are trying to make political hay out of statistics about how many people in Iraq are dead, you have an ABSOLUTE ETHICAL RESPONSIBILITY to fully and openly provide the sources of your data and open them up to independent review.
(If you’ve guessed where this was headed, give yourself a popsicle, because it means you pay attention to the news.)
And with that in mind, I give you... this.
O’Hanlon’s piece in the Wapo today points to a significant reduction in sectarian violence. But as Matt points out the U.S. military won’t actually verify those numbers or show any proof.In fact getting access to any kind of civilian casualty number has grown much more difficult in the past year. The most reliable source for civilian casualty estimates, the UN, has not been allowed access to the data since the start of 2007. The Iraqi government was mad because it thought the UN’s numbers were too high so it stopped sharing the data.
There are also numerous reports of underreporting of civilian casualties inside Iraq.
Even more damning is the fact that just last August the military and the Bush Administration specifically underreported civilian deaths in an attempt to tout the success of the original Baghdad security operation. An accusation that was confirmed by the Iraq Study Group.
A drop in civilian casualties would be great news. I just wish someone who doesn’t have a vested interest in reporting that news could actually verify those numbers.
Will the wingnut-o-sphere demand a sound accounting from the Bush administration about its “Surge” numbers? After all, this should be a matter of a strict count, nothing to do with algorithms or datasets. My bet is they won’t… takers?
Which gets us back to where we started. All you need to know about this war is that the Bush administration and its sycophants care, or even know, about the number of dead Iraqis only in terms of its own political gains and losses.
And what else do you really need to know about this horrible, immoral mess?
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Steve-AR @ 1
nice!
4?
OK, going to read it, BRB
Nice, Thers…!!!
boing -inward two-and-a-half somersaults, tuck position, no splash
g’evening everyone
Superior post. Ugly facts, but superior presentation.
Shorter Repugs: “As long as our team wins, we’ll play the game.”
6th?
This is sadly another classic example of the hypocracy that is the GOP. The worst part is they never see it and the MSM won’t report it.
Suzanne @ 7
good evening, suzanne. your dive looks especially lovely in the eclipse-light.
did anyone let downstairs know?
Suzanne @ 12
Yes, Suzanne…they were POKED!
Just absolutely sickening.
Hi Suzanne, hope your feeling better.
I’m guessing the decision “not to do” body count stuff emanated directly from the feverish minds of Deadeye and Rum-Dummy.
I can just hear those 2 simultaneously whispering, each in one of Junya’s ears:
“We better not count no bodies, ’cause that’s just how losing the Vietnam war started, doncha know? Another brewski Junya?”
Suzanne @ 7
Another graceful dive, Ma Cheri, by the way you don’t happen to look at prior threads do ya? *g*
I believe the study from Johns Hopkins and MIT used conservative epidemiological methods that anyone who thinks the Earth is older than 6,000 years accepts. A large percentage of the families had death certificates.
It is worthless to argue with this scum; the path to salvation is to defeat as many Republicans as possible. Obama saying Tom Coburn is a friend and he could work with him; Jeebus!!
Warning Suzanne, you prolly saw it already,
cause you’re a smartie, but see #179 below.
We were getting naughty down there.
A supporting viewpoint from Matthew Yglesias:
How long will the Iraqis hate us? I would sure hate any people who came in and did something similar to my country. Forever.
Suzanne @ 12
Actually, the rollin’ wheel has pretty well eliminated the need for this task at the Lake. *g*
I simply cannot fathom how we have come to this place in our history. What has happened to our nation? And how did we allow it to get this bad?
CTuttle @ 17
(poking head out from backstage curtain) I am the all knowing, all seeing, powerful mod, CT - and you know I know so go ahead and confess to everyone else (grin).
I was watching the Clint Eastwood movie Iwo Jima today and I was wondering if that was a first for a very large battle where no civilians died?
Redshift @ 20
Well, yeah. Cause if they had facts to back up these claims they would be trumpeting them from the rooftops. That they don’t, speaks volumes.
Perhaps they’ll release the raw data from the Florida vote in 2000. I applaud this new Republican desire for openness and transparency in poll numbers.
demi @ 19
Must be the Redwoods. (hi honey)
demi @ 19
I can’t believe ya’ll didn’ mention freshly squeezed lemons.
Thanks, Thers. A really important topic. Unbelievable that our country could do this…
What will the dems do in September? It’s got to stop.
sangemon @ 23
We allowed our leaders to rape third world nations for fun and profit for many decades, and now they think it’s ok to do it to us with impunity.
Pretty simple, really.
“And what else do you really need to know about this horrible, immoral mess?”
I think it is helpful to add this: that the surge has failed on Cheney and Bush’s own terms. The surge was to provide breathing room to allow political reconciliation. If the surge provided just enough breathing room for that, and there was any sign of it happening, then the surge would be a success. If the surge suddenly works miracle wonders in the next couple of months and there is no political progress, then it is a failure.
The administration and its apologists are trying to sell the surge on a basis that explicitly contradicts its original premise. I think that needs to be repeated over and over again for as long as it takes.
I am not flacking for Dodd, but he had the model statement:
“Despite the exemplary performance of our troops, we are coming off the bloodiest summer of this misguided war and it should be clear that there can be no military solution in Iraq.
“It is useless to argue the merits of a specific tactic when the strategy itself is failed.
“In fact, debating over military tactics when there is no military solution only undermines efforts by those of us who believe that we must change course in Iraq now and begin to immediately redeploy US combat forces so that Iraqi leaders will have the impetus to find a political accord.”
http://chrisdodd.com/node/2173
Which gets us back to where we started. All you need to know about this war is that the Bush administration and its sycophants care, or even know, about the number of dead Iraqis only in terms of its own political gains and losses.
They are an equal opportunity offender - they don’t give a rat’s ass for the dead and injured Americans either, unless they can use it for a photo op background.
Thanks for the kind words, folks.
Suzanne @ 29
we were getting aROUND to it.
The surge is working..
BAGHDAD — This year’s U.S. troop buildup has succeeded in bringing violence in Baghdad down from peak levels, but the death toll from sectarian attacks around the country is running nearly double the pace from a year ago.
link
How many have died in Afghanistan?
demi @ 19
thanks heavens those naughty folks didn’t follow us up here, huh?
Oh.
Never mind.
Suzanne @ 24
Wait, Demi has all the incriminating evidence…!!! Pics, fingerprints on glasses, etc… *g*
Steve-AR @ 36
It’s Whack-A-Mole
cleter @ 27
Hell, they just released Karl Rove’s daddy’s raw p*cker, cut em a little slack.
The Rove frenum ladder was the most encouraging news I’ve seen in days. Obama wants to work with his friend Tom Coburn? What are they gonna do? Pick out burquas?
Thanks Suzanne..I did the link thing and it worked!!!
The website for New Bridge Strategies has been saved at TPM.
How to get rich after a war…
EPU’d from downstairs:
Redshift @ 176
Excellent! I recommend this link for every aware political junkie, as well as anyone who cares about the wingnut’s ability to hijack important words.
Bob in HI
oh CTuttle, my birthday’s tommorrow :P ahd Happy B-day to you too, for monday.
A couple of evil Virgos aren’t we? ^_~
Steve-AR @ 42
woohoo!
Astral Technician @ 31
That’s right. That’s how we got here.
Hey, peanutbutter — you in da house?
Wanted to follow up with you on your comment on the Dan Maffei thread earlier today about what to do here in OC.
I live in Royce’s district. That seat is his for as long as he wants to keep it, unless he is (warning: old political cliche upcoming) found in bed with a dead girl or a live boy.
I want to believe that Rohrbacher is vulnerable, but in my heart of hearts I don’t believe it.
Can we really do anything more than play defense for Loretta and send our money where it can have an impact?
bobschacht @ 44
Did my comment finally appear on your blog, Bob?
my disclaimer about the mars thing was epu’d-
elliot at 190——-and astral…….
oooooooops…..the mars thing………..i didn’t follow it up, cuz it came from a professor i know………..
and i thought it was weird that jack horkheimer didn’t mention it on his show this week……shoulda known something was up when he didn’t mention it…….
=============
elliot had a great link at 190 in the last thread…..
i didn’t follow it up because this person is usually right-on, and didn’t stop to think about the impossibility of it……sorry…….oh well.
aliasofwestgate @ 45
Happy birthday alias.
aliasofwestgate @ 45
Positively…!!! ;-)
ccmask @ 25
From about 1750 through WW I, civilian casualties were kept to around 10%. WW II was around 50%. We’re now surpassing even Viking invasions. Odin is pleased, but really, it’s just not fun like it used to be. Sigh. Call me a luddite. [/irony alert]
I just have to drop this here.
Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, said in his daily radio commentary, which will air Friday, that evangelicals have the right approach. They want to improve churches, marriages and families, said Perkins.
“Last on their list is the environment,” he added. “So much for the global warming hype. Despite what the media may want to project upon evangelicals, they understand that if we, as a nation, get the spiritual issues right and build strong marriages and families, most of the other problems will be solved in the process.”
snip
Imagine? And these people are building churches all over the place and they will probably be polling places.
GordonM @ 53
You’re a Luddite.
Just a quick back to politics thing, I was thinking about DiFi’s response to my Impeach Now message to her and her response that it would only be divisive for the country…
What? like, maybe the Civil War?
Oh, like that?
We estimate that as of July, 2006, there have been 654 965 …..
Is that 654,965?
ccmask @ 54
How a Christian can be anything but a committed environmentalist is a mystery. We are stewards of God’s creation, with a duty to preserve it for those who will follow us.
Bob Schacht - I left an answer and a question for you at the bottom of the “Useful Idiots” thread. Thanks
GordonM @ 53
I’ve not seen the movie yet, did they mention the mass suicide off Mt Kiribachi by many women and children…???
demi @ 56
Exactly. The GOP is still benefitting from the dog and pony show they put on with Clinton. It created such a bad taste for so many that now, when we have a situation crying out for impeachment, those in charge are too afraid to do it.
Here’s a Sherffius ‘toon (8-24) somewhat appropriate to the topic:
http://cagle.msnbc.com/politic.....rffius.asp
demi @ 56
I feel that in many ways, we are in a civil war here - just no one has fired a shot. King George 43 and his cohort vs the rest of America in a struggle for the direction the path of our future as a nation will take.
CTuttle @ 60
No, they didn’t.
Tony Perkins is taking that whole Psycho thing way too seriously.
ccmask @ 54
The amount of “fundie” church and infra-structure building around the country is amazing. All done with un-audited “Faith Based” tax dollars. We have got to shut off those tax dollars after 01/20/09. If we do that, the xtian’s will implode from their own greed.
burnspbesq @ 58
“Last on their list is the environment,” he added. “So much for the global warming hype. Despite what the media may want to project upon evangelicals, they understand that if we, as a nation, get the spiritual issues right and build strong marriages and families, most of the other problems will be solved in the process.”
Yes, if we get all moral, God and Gaia will quit putting their “natural disasters” on us.
Totally makes sense.
CTuttle @ 49
Not yet. :-(
Bob in HI
I find it a little strange and creepy that 70,000 Iraqi’s can be justifiable, but a number like Lancets is considered way out of league.
madmommy @ 61
Question for you, madmommy.
Do folks in Louisiana believe, to any significant extent, that a major factor in the slow pace of reconstruction is that most of the people who were displaced were more likely to be Democratic voters? Put another way, do we believe that KKKarl slowed down the reconstruction in order to turn Louisiana into a reliably red state?
dmac @ 50
hey dmac, the entire liberal blogosphere was rolled by that fake ‘reagan diary” thing. don’t beat yourself up about it. this is the lake. you’re among (slightly raunchy) friends.
From wiki: Under the category Aftermath:
Because all the civilians had been evacuated, there were no civilian casualties at Iwo Jima, unlike at Saipan and Okinawa.[5]
dmac, was it you who wrote about your parents in Germany earlier today?
madmommy @ 61
What the hell are they afraid of (pinot talking). They are letting the Executive Branch take away their authority. What the F?
ccmask @ 54
Makes perfect sense. A strong family unit, with a mom and children and a strong daddy type like Ted Haggert, Jimmy Swaggart, Ralph Reed, or Jim Bakker could easily heal the environment thru prayer, hookers and graft.
burnspbesq @ 58
Boosh said Saturday that conditions in his skull have atrophied, in his dreams, Boosh, the sands of Iraq are going to swallow you and the excess mortals will haunt your ***, Republicans and data and statistics, haha! The wingnuts will take another crap for Boosh, and the Loyal Bushies are indeed an immoral mess…they’re a bunch of clowns playing trumpets, while our national farce is brought to you by the cynical bastards at six teen hund red
ccmask @ 64
Mt. Suribachi was where they raised the infamous flag, however, on the other side of the isle…!!!
Again, I think they are building churches for the polling stations to get better control of the votes.
CTuttle @ 60
IIRC that was Saipan, in the Northern Marianas. I was alive but not sentient so the memory is from books.
It has always gobsmacked me how easily the Bush administration convinced otherwise thinking individuals to not take the Lancet study seriously. I heard an interview on NPR a few years ago with one of the guys who was doing that study. He and the others risked their lives repeatedly to get that information. The poster above who said most of them had death certificates is telling the truth. The stories behind those numbers were just heartwrenching. That was in the days before NPR was taken over by the fascist overlords. Sigh.
bobschacht @ 69
Shall I repost?
CTuttle @ 79
Actually, the first infamous flag was taken as a souvenir by a military officer.
Suzanne @ 63
Yes. Just, yes. What can we do? Talk to our Reps? Been there done that. Go walk around with signs? Done that.
I’d just rather go camping. Sounds defeatest, but, remember…the grigrio.
:)
a strong daddy type like Ted Haggert, Jimmy Swaggart, Ralph Reed, or Jim Bakker could easily heal the environment thru prayer, hookers and graft.
okay, how’s that work when they’re praying *for* hookers and graft?
The amount of “fundie” church and infra-structure building around the country is amazing. All done with un-audited “Faith Based” tax dollars. We have got to shut off those tax dollars after 01/20/09. If we do that, the xtian’s will implode from their own greed.
I DO NOT understand how this has come to be. Bill of Rights, anyone?
ccmask @ 80
(sweet little old lady voice)
Now dearie, I see you’ve voted democratic. Now you know that means you’ll go to hell, don’t you? I don’t want you to burn in eternal damnation, so let’s just change that to a straight republican ticket, shall we? Boys, help this nice man to his car.
(gruff manly man 19 year old Xtian Jock Voice)
Come with us sir. Thank you for doing the right thing.
The Bind Moggles…
Steve-AR @ 81
No, Mt. Kiribachi is on Iwo Jima
Are American journalists allowed to take local pictures inside Iraq? When these pictures start coming in, Bush will finally be in the hottest waters yet. That’s why he doesn’t want to leave.
ccmask @ 84
I wouldn’t doubt it…!!!
And we also have this:
THE DETENTION OF AP PHOTOGRAPHER BILAL HUSSEIN
The U.S. military in Iraq has imprisoned Associated Press photographer Bilal Hussein since April 12, 2006, accusing him of being a security threat but never filing charges or permitting a public hearing. “We want the rule of law to prevail,” says AP President and CEO Tom Curley. “He either needs to be charged or released. Indefinite detention is not acceptable.” Military officials say that Hussein was being held for “imperative reasons of security” under United Nations resolutions. A Pentagon spokesman reiterated that stance Sept. 18. Hussein is a 35-year-old Iraqi citizen and a native of Fallujah. AP executives said an internal review of his work did not find anything to indicate inappropriate contact with insurgents, and any evidence against him should be brought to the Iraqi criminal justice system. Hussein began working for the AP in September 2004. He photographed events in Fallujah and Ramadi until he was detained.
Bilal Hussein is one of an estimated 14,000 people detained by the U.S. military worldwide — 13,000 of them in Iraq. They are held in limbo where few are ever charged with a specific crime or given a chance before any court or tribunal to argue for their freedom. In Hussein’s case, Curley and other AP executives say, the military has not provided any concrete evidence to back up the vague allegations they have raised about him. More information is contained in the news stories and press materials below.
http://www.ap.org/bilalhussein/
Thers, great post. Let’s make the Pentagon spill their data. Clearly the wingnutosphere likes data now. So they should ask their Pentagon buddies to spill it. Maybe BetrayUS will tell Huge Hewitt next time he appears on his wee programme.
ccmask @ 90
They can take pictures - getting them published in American media, however, is a whole nudder thing.