When you look at the demographics, economics and budget of the US, it’s hard not to come to the conclusion that the great political battle of the next generation can be summed up very simply – it’s going to be about “who pays, who wins… and who takes it on the chin.”
The US has a number of entitlements. Typically they’re considered to be Social Security, Healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid and government employee health care), and the debt servicing charges. To that I would add an entitlement everyone pretends isn’t one – military spending.
Now from a political point of view the problem with all of these things is that the cost for them is rising and with the expected retirement of the baby boomers, they’re going to rise faster than revenues will – at least under the current style of taxation in the US.
In a sense the numbers and even the trend lines don’t have to matter. Under other circumstances (say the US was actually in World War III these numbers wouldn’t matter in the least. If the US was running large trade and current account surpluses and had a demographic profile like it did in the 1950’s (a baby boom at the beginning of its life cycle), it would be cause for concern, but not really that big a deal. But unfortunately the US is at the end of a baby boom, it’s not in a war, and it’s running huge trade, account surplus and even savings deficits. The US is not socking away more money than it needs – the US is borrowing huge amounts of money from the rest of the world (indeed, some numbers come in that the US is borrowing over 80% of all the money available to be borrowed in the world. On occasion that number comes in over 100%, meaning (as one friend quipped) all the legal money, and a lot of the black market money too).
But, as it happens the numbers do matter, so let’s run through them.
Health spending (read: Medicaid, subsidies and government employee health care) and Medicare costs are both rising faster than inflation. Without radical reform (i.e. single payer) that isn’t going to change. Cutting back on Medicare is one of the US’s 3rd rails. So that’s 24% of the budget which is only going to increase in size. Current estimates are that Medicare spending will about triple by 2030 (that won’t happen, because it’s impossible, but that leads to the question of “what gives?”)
The size of the debt financing, currently at 9% will continue to rise as the size of the debt rises. Generational low interests rates are over, as well, so it’ll rise even faster than the debt. The deficit is dropping slightly right now, but it’s still a deficit (and you need a surplus to actually shrink the debt). While in theory this is fixable (Clinton did turn it around) demographic realities and political realities make it very difficult. (Clinton fixed it by reducing debt servicing charges and by reducing military costs.)
So we’re up to 33% of the budget that won’t be getting reduced. Social Security comes next, clocking in at 21%. There’s a reason Republicans are desperate to “privatize” SS – that’s where their solution is – cutting that percentage is where they want to find their savings (and privatizing allows them to create another stock market bubble and make their friends on Wall Street rich from all the management fees and the rising market). Absent doing so, while SS isn’t in a “crisis”, contra the propaganda, it’s also true that SS costs are going to do nothing but rise.
No we’re at 54% of the budget. Next we have military spending. Call it 22% though that’s an understatement given how much money is hidden elsewhere or more or less off the books (you don’t think the Department of energy insisted on more expensive plutonium enrichment reactors for “energy” do you?)
The US needs to do a research and buy up to its next generation of military hardware. Here’s how it works – when you start using military hardware in combat, over time your enemies figure out how to beat them. When the Abrams was first deployed it was considered essentially unrepeatable, now the insurgents know how to use four infantrymen to take one out (two of them will die, but that’s a fair trade for a tank). Military equipment design always involves trade offs, and once your enemies figure out what they are, and what the weaknesses are, the effectiveness goes down a great deal (you can ask Israeli Merkava commanders about that.) So, to maintain its conventional military superiority, the US needs another big R&D and purchasing push. Add to that all the expenses to fix the military’s readiness (which has been shattered by the wars) and the budget’s fantasy that the military budget is going to go down over the next few years is simply that. The natural trend line is up, not down. And politically, both Democrats and Republicans are falling over themselves to affirm how much they want to spend on the military – you can ask Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama (92K new troops) about that, if you don’t believe me. It’s worth emphasizing in particular that politicians learned the cost of crossing the military in the 90’s. The military openly disrespected Clinton throughout his tenure, they allowed troops to campaign in uniform against Gore in 2000 and they effectively helped throw the election to Bush in the 2000 Florida recount.
So, with fairly minimal numbers we’re at 76% of the budget for the main entitlements – health care, SS, debt financing and the military. Everything else comes in at 24%. None of the 4 entitlements are likely to decrease in cost – SS and Healthcare due to demographics and cost trendlines (health care costs have been rising faster than inflation for some time with only a small speed-bump in the nineties for the introduction of HMOs.) The remaining 24% pays for all your federal courts, the department of agriculture, the department of education, the FBI, salaries for government employees, agricultural subsidies, the department of energy, the Parks system, etc… There’s probably some room here for cutting out BS port and so on – let’s say an aggressive President with a compliant Congress willing to give up earmarks and other pork (hah) could cut out 5% – which is, oh, 1.2% of the overall budget. No, cost cutting outside the main entitlements isn’t going to be enough.
With the exception of the deficit, every one of the main entitlements is a third rail. Old folks are one of the best organized lobbies in the US and they vote. Gutting SS or Medicare is quite rightly seen as political suicide. The military is considered unassailable – you can’t close bases, you can’t cut it back, or your not patriotic. And as noted above, the military is not above intervening in politics despite its oaths to the contrary. Pissing off people with guns and an attitude of entitlement is a bad idea. With costs in everything else rising, debt financing isn’t likely to go down either, and in fact US financing costs are likely to keep going up as its credit worthiness goes down.
The obvious thing to do, then, would be to raise taxes. But you can’t raise taxes in the US. The lesson of the last thirty years is that you can’t say “I’m going to raise taxes” and expect to win. This was recently reconfirmed in California where they decided that taking on further huge debts was preferable to more taxes.
The Clinton method of dealing with it is dead – the military won’t be cut and manipulation of the bond market to reduce borrowing costs isn’t likely to work with the US in its current fiscal shape.
So the US is in a classic bind. Every single obvious option is unacceptable to a powerful interest group. No one wants taxes raised on them. The military doesn’t want cuts. The old people don’t want to lose their benefits. The obvious reforms (for example you could save a lot of money going to single payor by reducing overall costs to the economy of healthcare by about a third and taxing the surplus) are opposed by extremely powerful industry lobbies.
Everyone has got theirs, and no one is either willing to give some of it up, or is willing to pay more for it.
But someone’s going to have to and so the battle of the next generation will be who gets it in the neck – either by losing some valuable benefit (the way health care is slowly being taken away from so many Americans) or by being forced to pay more. A lot of conservatives would like private accounts for SS, for example. Or they want increased payroll taxes. Or they want a flat income tax (and I am here to tell you that if you are not earning high six figures a flat tax is always going to be bad for you). They’ve got their plan and it’s basically this – all the tax cuts they’ve gotten in the last thirty years, which have made the US the modern country with the highest income inequality in the world, they aren’t giving up. If the peons (that’s you) want your services, you’re going to have to pay for them. The poor can look after each other, because the rich don’t see why they should be required to do so.
The populist, liberal, answer to this, of course, would be to look at charts like the one on the left and go back to strong taxation on corporations, to go back to heavy progressive taxation and to ramp the estate tax back up (because a couple million is enough of a head start for anyone.)
But the rich don’t think you’ll get it together enough to fight back. They figure they managed to sheer you with lines like “if we decrease tax rates we’ll get more tax money in” (supply side economics) and “if the rich get really rich they’ll hire some of you and you’ll be better off too” (trickle down economics, which, really, was only half a lie. They did say they would trickle on the rest of us, and they did.) They figure Americans will keep mistaking what’s good for the rich, with what’s good for Americans. Will keep thinking that they’re “pre-rich” and therefore vote not to tax the rich, but instead vote to tax themselves.
I really wonder if they’re right. It’s worked for over 30 years now. Normal Americans haven’t seen a wage increase in that long.
We’ll see. Unlike the middle class the rich don’t fool themselves about these things. They know that someone pays. And they intend that it not be them. The big fight of the next generation is whether or not they get their way. If they do, it won’t just be the lower classes (and you’re all lower classes to the real rich) who get it in the neck, it will be the end of America as a hegemonic power, because the base of power of such powers is always a prosperous and large middle class – not a bunch of debt slaves.
Related posts:
- Senate Health Care Debate Liveblog
- Earth to CBO, Senate Finance and WaPo: “It’s the Economy, Stupid”
- The Max Tax: Baucus’ Plan Would Benefit Big Med and Shackle the Middle Class
- Super Wealthy Sen. Feinstein Joins Wealthy Republican Senators to Claim US Can’t Afford Health Care for Everyone
- Only the Insurance Companies Want a Level Playing Field





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Zed!
1?
Great post, but it has no title!
It’s disorienting. :)
Everything crashed and went bye-bye
Will economic pain wake people up? The true repercussions of the what happened on the money market last week are said to be felt by us little people in the second and third quarters of next year.
A nasty recession will make people more engaged, I suspect. Homeless, unemployed folks tend to become politically active.
And Ian? Great post, as usual!
Great post!
Mods. Check out the there vs their, there.
nonplussed @ 5
That is my thought. 300,000,000 pissed off people is something to contend with.
The military expenses are cuttable. And more than that it’s essential that we reduce the incredible waste we are indulging in. Read my post: Military Keynesianism: What is that and why should I care?
and you will see that this is going to destroy, indeed it’s already doing so, our nation if we do not rein it in.
We do not need another nuclear aircraft carrier task force. Nor do we need an air-superiority fighter for every branch of the armed services.
OBL was laughin’ his ass off as the senile fool ‘Poppy’ Bush and his ‘lil’ maggot of a son christened a new nuclear carrier recently which will cost, with it’s required task force, around 9 Billion dollars.
Health-care….
Elect John Edwards and go to single payer before it’s too late. That would be in 2040 when at the current rate of inflation ‘health-care’ costs consume the entire GDP.
Folks, it’s simple.
Change or die.
I am becoming convinced that it is Edwards that they are most afreared of…
Icky Thompson on CSPAN..Ewwww.
The Republicans have gutted the US economy and have left a hollow shell..sustained with financial smoke and mirrors. The mortgage scam is going bust..even Citi Bank and Bank of America are in trouble. When/if Cheney drops the first bomb on Iran, and oil prices go into the stratosphere, the falsehood of our “economic prosperity” will be exposed and then watch out.
When people lose everything and they are standing in bread lines, they wake up, sort of. It’s amazing how much heat in the pond the frog is willing to tolerate, until it’s cooked, that is.
And what was the guy thinking who cut down the last tree on Easter Island? They saw everything going and their situation became more and more dire. Still they continued doing the same thing – cutting down their very source f life – trees.
QuakerGirl @ 13
Yesterday, it was really hot here in Texas…I went out to put water in my dog’s little swimming pool…a poor, sweet frog was floating in the really, hot water…I got really upset…I dumped out the water, and guess what? He hopped away!!! So, there is hope.
Unfortunately, this will also prove to be the real battle about our reaction to Global Warming, rather than a perpetual argument about whether it’s real.
The ultra-rich already are accepting that Global Warming is real, and they are doing what they can to make sure that (a) you and I pay for our reaction to it; and (b) they profit from our investments in it.
Either we get hip to this or we get duped again.
Our reaction to Global Warming can either be a democratic and just one, or it can be one more profitable boondoggle for those who made money causing GW.
Yowsa. Sorry for the ugly formatting and lack of title. Should be fixed. Again, my apologies.
Ian Welsh @ 16
I kind of think it was really cool without a title. Who needs a stinkin’ title? The gold $20 was artistically very striking!! JMHO. *g*
LS @ 14
I love that ending. We need some good solid Democrats to toss the hot water out of the icky pool so us poor little frogs can hop away. Imagine what a different story this might have been had you not taken action. Send this message to congress.
My take:
The U.S. is a dinosaur at the end of the Jurassic.
It’s big and powerful and can kill anything it wants.
But the future belongs to the small furry critters running around in the underbrush.
The big question: Who stands to inherit the future?
In my estimation, it’s not going to be the me-firsters.
They’ll last for a few generations only.
I want to know who are the successful furry critters running around in the underbrush.
QuakerGirl @ 18
I guess I should have said, she, it could have been “Mrs. Frog”!!! ;>
Too rational. Nothing will happen until there is a crisis.
The system will continue to milk the cow (Governmnet Spending) for all its worth. What you don’t explain is that being a profiteer in the Military-Industrial complex is low risk – there is NO market risk, and there is no “market force” to cause a simple redirection.
Deficit spendin will continue, until inflation liks in, interest rates will rise, etc. Just like the ’70s.
The fix was the early ’80s, with interest rates at 16 to 22%.
And who really cares if the middle class in the US suffer? They are easily manipulated by TV.
A.Citizen @ 9
Oh, in theory I agree – they’re cuttable. But in practice… oh, the screams, the screams. And the jingo, by jingo!
In fact the first thing I’d cut is the military if I had my druthers, probably half the budget. I think spending 25% of the world’s military budget rather than half should be enough. Ridiculously expensive military that is much less effective than it should be for the cost.
Something else you’re not allowed to say. :)
Thank you, Ian. gold, as always.
that is a striking coin, btw
Fred Thompson is incredibly boooooring.Zzzzzz. Snort!
Synoia @ 21
Worth repeating and you’re absolutely right. I have said it in other articles, mind you. The best way to get rich is to get the government to give you the money or to force people to buy from you (that’s what individual mandate health insurance is, btw, a huge subsidy for health insurance companies at your expense.)
Good evening from central FL, Ian. I think you have correctly identified the societal battle that will be fought (who pays?), but I’m curious as to your thoughts on the best strategy and tactics the middle class and the poor should employ in this war. We know what the powers-that-be will do-more cops, prisons, laws, surveillance, propaganda, and censorship.
How do you think we should fight this war?
well…
the boomers, one of which i is,
will certainly be getting stiffed for what they thought they’d be getting
and they’ll sure have a lot of time on their hands…
the first of them hitting 65 in 2011 and 2012.
about mayan calender end?
snide aside
How’d that work out for ‘em… ?
Very interesting, Ian. I wondered if you read the Matt Taibbi article in the most recent Rolling Stone. We really are in quite a bind.
http://www.rollingstone.com/po…..aq_swindle
Ian,
Isn’t it so that there is no good outcome, practically and politically speaking, in the scenario you describe?
An OT..WTF?
Obama names Republicans he’ll work with
KEY BISCAYNE, Fla. – Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama often says he will be a candidate that will bring both parties together and Saturday he named a few of the Republicans he would reach out to if elected.
(snip)
“Senator Warner is another example of somebody with great wisdom, although I don’t always agree with him on every issue,” Obama said. “I would also seek out people like Tom Coburn, who is probably the most conservative member of the U.S. Senate. He has become a friend of mine.”
(snip)
Part of Washington’s problem is that President Bush has created a partisan atmosphere, he said.
link
Tom Coburn??? I’ll vote for any Dem, I just hope it’s not Obama.
Quaker Girl,
Working and middle class people are already standing in bread lines. And in my area of Michigan the cupboard is bare at the same time as job losses are increasing.
Still some developer wants to build luxury condos in the area so somebody has money. It’s just not any one I know.
Elliott @ 28
Majority are still Republicans. People are slow learners. I’ll tell you, until Iraq went south, I was really worried about the US military’s strong support for and identification with only one major party. I spent more time worrying about that than practically anything else.
Even Paul Krugman hasn’t focused yet on the real costs of our insanely bloated military. It sucks up not only economic resources (capital), but also human (research and development) resources. The techno-boom of the 1990s has roots in all the great technical minds freed from thinking about guiding missiles to think about developing cool internet products and services. US research stagnation, our slipping behind in broadband access etc etc, is related to the Bush rearmament boom. A boom in weapons and systems that did and will do nothing to protect us from people armed with box cutters and a readiness to die for their chosen cause. A deep paradigm shift is needed about what security really means and none of the leading candidates has even started to address this fact…
Ian Welsh @ 25
Geez, and I thought I should get something back from the money I relinquished to the “system”. But, nooooo, we are going to use your money to do what we want to do, and you should be patriotic and let us do what we want to do… They owe us! Not the other way around. I pay into health insurance companies …I relinquish money…I have to fight to get the services… D’oh…..here, take my money….when my house gets flooded, let me fight you for years to get the coverage I already paid for, and you agreed to cover…but noooooo…..we never said we’d pay you for “that”…yes you did!! No, it was that, but it wasn’t “that” that. Sigh. Man, it sucks to get ripped off.
Truth about the army:
If you’re an officer, you want a command slot (e.g., as company or brigade commander).
Command slots are the key to promotions.
Wars increase the number of these slots.
Yay!
Class Warfare!
My favorite topic of all; thanks, Ian.
PS Please take a moment, pupsters, and click through on the BlogAds at upper right. Sign some worthwhile petitions and also prove to the BlogAd people that FirePups are worth advertising to!
Jane Hamsher @ 29
Just reading it now. It’s fascinating. The great contracting out of US government has almost always been a disaster. Contrary to claims it doesn’t reduce costs (but often increases them) and it reduces oversight substantially. Cost plus contracts (and sole source, and all that other fun stuff) also directly contradict the whole theory of “free market competition being cheaper”. It’s dubious that the free market can do most things that belong in government control cheaper in the first place, but any truth in it is certainly destroyed by just giving people cost plus.
It’s also a huge issue in terms of how well the army can fight. Slightly (seemingly) unrelated story – the Canadian army a couple years ago couldn’t move one of its regiments out of the capital in Afghanistan and into a dangerous deployment. Why? They had outsourced the supply chain and the contractors wouldn’t go – their insurance wouldn’t cover it.
Putting your supply chain outside of direct military command (and discipline) is a horribly bad idea. In addition as bad as (forgive me) US troops have been on dealing with the Iraqis, contractors appear to have been far far worse – killing them without any oversight, disrespecting them all the time, generally playing Rambo. Regular troops despise the mercenaries with a passion from all reports.
clio @ 32
It’s like that here as well. In my apartment complex many people are riding the edge. So many feel ashamed that they are not able to purchase a home for their young family. The retired people sold their home to pay for rising medical bills and try to have a little income to live on. They are all stressed and feeling the pinch. More accurately, pain at this point. I am really upset at the financial bind our seniors are in. These people worked all their lives, saved, paid for their kids’ education and have very little left. No one is that excited about living much longer. Without resources, that’s a scary prospect. And, like in your area, developers are building high end homes. What ever happened to affordability?
Ian Welsh @ 33
wow! coming from you that’s really saying something!
I sense more sense showing from some in the military (upper tier), we are seeing more smarts and guts, aren’t we?
There can’t be real and/or broad support for a strike on Iran, is there?
I recently heard, (NPR?) that the “real deficit” when Clinton left office was $9 trillion and now it’s $49 trillion. Am I making this up?
Synoia @ 21
This is precisely the point I try vainly to explain to friends in some version of the Illuminati Conspiracy camp (or Bilderbergers or Tri-Lateral types or …). If they (those evil all knowing elites) actually knew what they were doing, they would keep the middle class prosperous. Not only does a prosperous middle class keep the economy going, they give the rich political protection. A middle class that sees too much downward pressure may well finally turn to a fairly punative form of soc*al*sm. It’s obvious from history. Any Illuminati would know this.
Thompson was sooooo boring, that the goddess caused CSPAN to have technical problems, and they moved on to Huckabee. /s
Bwahahahahaha!
Ian Welsh @ 33
How do you figure the majority are still Repugs? Are you saying that the “majority” are Repugs, but Gore won the popular vote, because a bunch of Repugs didn’t vote? Just curious. That may very well be so.
LS @ 44
I see what you are saying, sorry. They would like us to believe that the majority of the military are Repugs, however, that may have changed. You never know what people do in the voting booth. On the other hand, you never know what the voting booth machine does either.
Dang, that’s where everybody went…!!! :-( Somebody dropped the ball in letting the prior thread know….
Contracting in the defense department was a Cheney mindfuck. He had Halliburton write the manual on it while SecDef, then went to work for them. Now his wars and occupations are making them all rich.
Ian Welsh @ 22
I think that part of the reason it’s so inefficient is that the DoD budget is so big. There are endless attempts by Congress and the President to tinker with it and get more money into this or that district or donor. It’s as much an economic stimulus as a national defense budget, and it’s a pretty lousy stimulus, too.
We also spend about double our GDP compared to most modern countries on defense. I can’t think of a good reason. The only serious rivals we have are China and Russia, and I don’t think the latter is a real threat right now. China is only worrisome because of Taiwan, and I’m not sure we’re spending defense dollars very well if we’re seriously worried about that issue.
Anyway, A.Citizen’s right. We need to change how we think about government and taxes or we’re going to see a major train wreck of an economy in a decade or two.
Steve-AR @ 41
GAO’s own numbers say Bill left a surplus, and, Shrub quickly squandered it….
Elliott @ 40
The upper military brass is pretty angry right now and don’t support Iran. I’ve even heard rumors that many of them will resign rather than attack Iran.
Lower military – still more Republican than Democratic. Still too many of them think that Iraq was behind 9/11, for example.
But the silver lining on Iraq was showing the military what Republicans really think of them, and what they really want to do with them.
LS @ 45
Military votes from overseas (absentee) are a horrendous problem. The military puts all kinds of hoops and controls on voting and delivering the votes, so a Harris / Blackwell can declare them bad or late or done in #3 pencil and discard them if they go the wrong way. Oh, but the one done in crayon for W? Good as gold.
CTuttle @ 49
Your are right..deficit should read debt.
Ian Welsh @ 50
If by “lower military” you mean the junior officer corps, I’d agree. If you’re talking about enlisted people, also, then that’s a group more representative of the country politically.
Shrub and his buds thought they were dealt an incredible hand.
Big surplus. 9/11
My god, what else could a fuck wishing to overthrow the U.S. government want?
The big issue for the Repubs now: how to set up the Dems for failure…how to win back the WH in 2012.
The Repubs are always at least one step ahead of Dems.
Beecause Repubs are ruthless. Power is the only issue.
Well, I’m off to SPOTLIGHT this post.
be back…
Kucinich, imo, is the only one who holds these (post and threads) truths to be self evident.
Brief Delurking by Al Da Spook to test url in login name:
Great post, Ian, as always! I read your blog every day now!
Steve-AR @ 52
That makes sense, since we still owed beaucoup bucks from the Reagan era…!!!
althespook @ 57
okay, let’s try this time!
TA DA! Success! Those who are interested in my humble blogging efforts can now get there by clicking my login name, per suz the late nite mod’s instruction.
(slides back under the water, leaving only tiny periscope head visible to read the posts and comments…)
I think that just about everyone is going to take it on the chin in the next generation (except maybe the Bush and Cheney clans and their sycophants)
althespook @ 57
You’re ‘f’ed, AK, and you’re welcome…!!! *g*
steve EVfuture @ 60
Well, Steve, you got it right in my opinion.
Alfred!
althespook @ 59
You’re such a tramp, AK! You, you blogwhore…!!! ;-)
Hiya everybody.
Ian I read your post and I may be looking at it different from other people.
Medicare and social security help people a lot of. Military spending helps a few people but mostly helps companies. Energy spending only helps companies. I bet people will understand it if you tell them we want a govt that helps people instead of companies.
I had to comment before I finnished the article about baby boomers reaching the age of social security
I am pretty sure greenspan and clinton already addressed this reality with an additional tax
now I know the president has borrowed and given away surplus from the social security but I believe boomers reaching social security age was addressed
if this is true I want to know why democrats aren’t pointing it out and making it clear the president gave away the funding that was earmarked for the issue and there wouldn’t be an issue if the president didn’t give the money to the richest people on the planet
I also want to point out the word “entitlement” is a perjorative and should not be used by a progressive unless we are talking about corporate entitlements and rich people entitlements
Social Security, Healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid, etc, these aren’t “entitlements” they are commons
services that are required for our culture and economy to proceed
commons are common expenses that everyone requires, they are not “entitlements”
FWIW
The discussion goes off track when it focuses on how to correct the current system.
That system is broken and cannot be restored.
The only question worth discussing is, what is the next system?
Jonathan @ 67
Nobody wants a next system. Tell us how to fix the one we have.
SnarKassandra ‘08.
Eureka Springs @ 56
I do like Edwards’ populism…!!! His ’shortness’ is but a mere pipe dream, however, Gore/Edwards would be divine…!!! 8-)
Cassie,
You’re here perhaps to read the reasoning of old guys like me.
We’re dinosaurs. We belong to a different age.
Learn from us, but pursue and make your own future.
Good luck in 2032.
SnarKassandra @ 68
this is simple
we get all the money that was stolen from the middle class, the money that was given to corporations and the wealthy
we get it returned with teh proper dividends
then we renew to graduated tax
bing. problem is solved
CTuttle @ 70
I agree with you on Kucinich. The “shortness” thing is the stupidest thing ever. Kissinger, is “short”, and look at his power. So was Napolean. Sorry to make those comparisons…
Why do they list it as military veterans on that pie chart? How much is contractors and how much is soldiers and vets and uniforms and food?
LS @ 10
I’ve been convinced of that for a while. Just once, I’d like to nominate the one they’re scared of.
Jonathan I learn from everybody. Young people and old people. Do you?
SnarKassandra @ 65
Missie, you’re so perceptive… A single-payer healthcare system would drastically reduce costs and produce a net gain, and, departing Iraq most expeditiously would save $10-12 Bil. monthly…!!! *g*
LS @ 73
LS, I agree, what is wrong with short?
SnarKassandra @ 76
Cassie,
I’ve taught.
A good teacher learns from students just as students learn from the teacher.
this in on think progress, sorry about teh ot but I think everyone is gonna get some distance out of this;
Oh boy. A second chance in two days to plug one of my favorite economic demographers. The references below are mostly written in plain English, the mathy parts are segregated so you can skip the naughty bits, and lots of cool graphs to give intuitive interpretation to the written analysis.
i think some of the results will put the social insurance issues discussed in this very informative post into perspective.
http://www.ceda.berkeley.edu/papers/rlee/
My take home points from these papers (but take with a big salt block unless you read them yourself): Elderly benefit, so there will be big voting block for Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid. There is no evidence that younger generation is getting screwed, so those incentives will remain into foreseeable future. In kind health care transfers through public insurance programs reduce economic inequality in the US greatly, but given current cost structure of health care industry in the US, it is a very very expensive transfer. Bottom line numbers on cost of making current Social Security program sustainable for long term is not very big.
Fiscal impacts of population aging in the US http://repositories.cdlib.org/…..=iber/ceda
Fiscal impacts of population change
http://repositories.cdlib.org/…..=iber/ceda
A Re-examination of Welfare States and Inequality in Rich Nations: How In Kind Transfers and Indirect Taxes Change the Story
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/ssw…..keldoc.pdf
Who wins and who loses? Public transfer accounts for US generations
born 1850 to 2090
http://www.ancsdaap.org/cencon2005/Papers/United States/UnitedStates.Ronald.Lee.etal.pdf
Sustainable social security; what would it cost
http://www.ceda.berkeley.edu/p…..raft7c.pdf
cleter @ 75
In truth, they are scared of We the People. They know it, why else would they take so many “defensive” measures…Even if, in the realm of possibility, they were to get “their” candidate the presidency, they will still have to deal with all of the people. Even the people you would think were “asleep”, are awakening. They will never ultimately prevail, however, we may be in for some really tough times…or not. You never know.
Even McNearney ignored my reference to 3/4 of a trillion per year in offensive and defense spending.
Sorta makes even his strong stance on changing our energy policy look like window dressing.
Elliott @ 78
Not a thing…they’ve got nothing else. That is a really good sign.
I like calling it OFFENSIVE spending. People will want to not pay for that.
I submited some links that will help illustrate the social insurance points in this nice post, but I guess there were too many, since it disappeared into, what? moderation land. I didn’t mean to clog up the system.
LS @ 73
I personally met and chatted with him, I do like him a lot… I was not being derogatory, I was merely utilizing the tamest nom de guerre…!!!
perris @ 72
I’ve been thinking for awhile that threatening a one time “wealth” tax (aimed at, say, 50% of the increase in wealth over $1M since 1980) would be an excellent starting point for negotiations on a lot of these issues.
But it’s not quite as simple as you outlined. We also need a massive investment in green technology, to get the US back into being a technical and industrial leader. And cool the planet. And survive peak oil.
Eureka Springs @ 82
and not even energy efficient window dressing, either!
Yes, Cassie.
I’ll learn from anyone. Or from anything.
the link for
“Who wins and who loses? Public transfer accounts for US generations
born 1850 to 2090″
is good, but you have to copy and paste URL into browser open file thingee.
Elliott @ 78
Randy can tell ya:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA
gotta go. back for late night.
GordonM @ 87
It sickens me thinking about how much time we’ve wasted.
Eureka Springs @ 82
I felt honored when he actually responded to a question of mine…!!!
SnarKassandra @ 76
I know you weren’t asking me, but everybody knows something that I don’t. Keeping that thought in mind will keep your mind as open as it needs to be.
The system will change because there is no other option other than seeing it implode on itself. It took nearly 100 years for the Federal Reserve created in 1913 to bring us to this point in time. While on fiat currency, the swings in both inflation and deflation have been wild to say the least.
On the other hand, gorwth was slower when we were on a gold standard because banks couldn’t lend out anymore that the reserves they had. Today, the Fed can print money at will and that is the true definition of inflation.
It is long past the time, that the Federal Reserve system was abandoned and a return to a sound money policy was put in place. The world might grow a bit slower, but at least the foundation it is built upon would last far longer than the ponzi scam that is in place now.
GordonM @ 91
very funny!
SnarKassandra @ 84
We should also return to calling it the Department of War, rather than the Department of Defense.
wesgpc @ 86
At 81 now.
Jonathan @ 89
Heh, the ‘anything’ is key too, fool me once…!!! ;-)
GordonM @ 87
you couldn’t frame it that way, if it were framed correctly it would fly
and it should certainly not be a one time tax, it needs to get back to where it was before reagan redistributed wealth from the middle class to the wealthy
that’s another story but the way to frame it is exactly the way I talk about it;
“middle class resources and investments were stolen and given to the wealthiest people on the planet in a class war designed to reduce the middle class
those resources will be returned from whence they were stolen”
bing, proper framing to give the program legs…then we bargain from that high point
What do you think of Rep. Conyers HR676, universal single payer? As I understand it it opens Medicare to younger than 65’s, mandates Rx negotiations, etc. Haven’t heard much about it though.
I’d like to see our candidates who are in Congress NOW just go ahead on and push some legislation, hold some hearings, etc.
I’m 60 now and the health ins. is going to be a B#ch for the next five years.
SnarKassandra @ 92
See ya later, Gator…!!! *g*
CTuttle @ 101
and the Democrats seem to be having a little trouble with this right now.
CTuttle @ 100
FWIW, I meant I would learn, or try to learn, something from a bug. Or a caterpillar. Or a useless bird that comes to my bird feeder.
Humans cease to be what they are once they abandon learning from the universe around them.
Elliott @ 104
*Gah* Ain’t that the Truth…!!! 8-(
103 nuncamas says August 25th, 2007 at 5:27 pm:
“What do you think of Rep. Conyers HR676, universal single payer? As I understand it it opens Medicare to younger than 65’s, mandates Rx negotiations, etc. Haven’t heard much about it though.”
I don’t know about universal payer, but one link I provided above says, given current health care industry structure in US, the cost of health care social insurance is very very expensive. When people talk about social insurance in the US being unsustainable, they are accurate only if they are really only talking about Medicare. Medicare combined with very high cost of health care in US is source of the problem in US social insurance.
–thanks, Teddy San Fran for putting up my first comment with links.
Jonathan @ 105
Damn, Skippy! I liked your earlier remark, too; ‘the teacher learns from the students,’ as well…!!! An open mind is essential……
A.Citizen @ 9
Is Nemisis is the book that explains this idea more?
Military Keynesian as I understand it so far means we spend a lot of money on objects (tanks, planes etc) which do not further benefit our economy unlike (shovels, computers, cars).
In fact by spending so much on tanks, planes etc we feel compeled to use them which adds to our expense.
When was the last time America ever fought a war that paid for itself?
perris @ 101
Right, but that is one-time. As someone who once was pretty prosperous, I bought a nice house & property (30 yr fixed, about 30% down – nothing irresponsible). My work got offshored, and I have spent the last 5 years just barely keeping up with mortgage and RE tax. I think I have finally sold the joint (knock on wood – where’s AK when you need him?) and actually end up with more than my down back. But RE tax is the only wealth tax we have – and it can be very punative to those whose wealth is all non-liquid. It’s also very much against the American ethos. Your framing is right, but this is difficult turf to tread.
things come undone @ 109
Dayam, didn’t Wolfie testify that it would ‘pay for itself’ in 3-6 mos, after we topple Saddam, oh wait, he also said they’d pepper our ‘Liberators’ with rose petals……..
Ian on comment 38, There is a big deal called Uniform Code Of Military Justice (UCMJ) when you enlist you fall under a stricter set of rules than when a civilian. The chain of command must be obeyed or you face court martial and brig time or worse. There is also a military code of conduct that is unwritten, Then there is traditional outfit pride, Non of this is part of contract military. Not to speak of the much better pay for less hazardous and arduous duty. The for profit military is demoralizing anddisgustingand out of control in addition to being far more costly. That is what career service should be politicized about.
FWIW
I’ve been looking, off and on, for the exit for about 35 years.
I suggest FDL readers look for the exit.
The reason I like a modified tax system is because people would know what the are paying. In order to work you would need two or three rates with one basic deduction of 50000. If you earned 100000 you might pay 20 percent on 50000.. 500000 you might pay 22 percent on 450000 and over 1 million raise it to 25 or more. I know more college educated people who really don’t know what per cent they pay. I know that last year we paid 17 percent and we are close to 150000. It has to be simplified.
Offer the American people a choice cut all military spending on new equipment, or cut social security, or raise taxes A national referendum where everyone gets to vote on the issue would take the choice away from Congress… er I mean the K Street Lobyists.
I’m sure Republicans will oppose the idea but the public would love the idea.
Effects of the surge:
The findings include:
_ Iraq is suffering about double the number of war-related deaths throughout the country compared with last year _ an average daily toll of 33 in 2006, and 62 so far this year.
_ Nearly 1,000 more people have been killed in violence across Iraq in the first eight months of this year than in all of 2006. So far this year, about 14,800 people have died in war-related attacks and sectarian murders. AP reporting accounted for 13,811 deaths in 2006. The United Nations and other sources placed the 2006 toll far higher.
_ Baghdad has gone from representing 76 percent of all civilian and police war-related deaths in Iraq in January to 52 percent in July, bringing it back to the same spot it was roughly a year ago.
_According to the Iraqi Red Crescent Organization, the number of displaced Iraqis has more than doubled since the start of the year, from 447,337 on Jan. 1 to 1.14 million on July 31.
However, Brig. Gen. Richard Sherlock, deputy director for operational planning for the Pentagon’s Joint Chiefs of Staff, said violence in Iraq “has continued to decline and is at the lowest level since June 2006.”
Jonathan @ 114
Just drive across the ditch and into the trees. Whatever you do, get off the interstate..)
Jane Hamsher @ 29
Very interesting, Ian. I wondered if you read the Matt Taibbi article in the most recent Rolling Stone. We really are in quite a bind.
http://www.rollingstone.com/po…..aq_swindle
Okay, I read it. Does the fact that I kept laughing mean that I’ve gone totally ’round the bend?
rwcole @ 116
In honor of this, and “cutting taxes raises revenues”, Cadillac is introducing a new feature on the Escalade: “press the brake, and it GOES EVEN FAAAAAAASSSSTERRRR..”
JPL @ 113
JPL,
FWIW, I’m a tax lawyer.
Again FWIW, the issue isn’t the complexity of the tax law. That’s inevitable in a complex society.
The issue is fairness.
The reality is that the fucks in congress have tremendous power through their ability to (a) raise taxes, and (b) redistribute wealth.
They will never give up this power. It means too many votes.
Most of the tax deductions benefit the rich and confuse everyone else. Bush complicated things for a reason and it wasn’t for the average joe.
JPL @ 122
he himself admitted his constituency was the Haves and the Have-Mores.
Elliott @ 28
right
#108, I disagree a bit. Medicare and SS serve a lot of people with very little overhead/admin costs. The insurance companies operate on something like 30% admin expense, and all health care providers have exponentially more overhead cost in just dealing with the multitude of entities/programs, etc.
I believe the health care delivery system could benefit greatly by streamlining private/employer based insurance out of it.
Besides, are you saying Medicare/SS recipients are to blame?
Jonathan @ 120
Yup. The Federal gov’t (especially since Reagan) has been an engine to redistribute wealth from blue areas to red. Tax labor, subsidize corn.
LindaR @ 124
Dayam, this noncom vet, serving in ‘00, voted for Nader!!! WTF???
For the past 20 years, Congress has dumped $63 million into a military plane that the Pentagon “repeatedly rejected, and which never had a successful flight.” Instead, Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) allocated earmarks for the plane project, which was created by one of his campaign donors. ABC’s The Blotter reports that the 2008 defense spending bill does not include an earmark for the program, effectively killing it. Hunter had wanted to direct $6 million toward the plane’s development.
One of my biggest concerns is that proponents of the FAIR TAX make it sound so easy. Because of bozo boortz I hear a lot of people tell me how much it makes sense because everyone pays the same amount. Rather than get into numbers explaining that it would hurt those that consume the most out of their income, when asked my opinion I simply say I believe in a strong middle class and they’d be penalized. It would be nice if the dems got in front of an issue for once.
Elliott @ 122
That to me was the most shocking piece of video in Faranheit 911. How could anyone with a net worth of less than 8 figures vote for someone who said that.
OT: DNC strips Florida of its delegates
Dayam, didn’t Wolfie testify that it would ‘pay for itself’ in 3-6 mos, after we topple Saddam, oh wait, he also said they’d pepper our ‘Liberators’ with rose petals……..Ctuttle@112 (sorry Ctuttle I messed up the quote)
We should force the people who pay for the think tanks that sponser Wolfie and the other Neoconservatives to pay for their mistake. A one time siezure of 20%b of their assets perhaps.
Maybe we go after Dick Cheney’s secret energy policy meeting members and take their assets too.
After all I’m sure they were aware that Bush wanted to invade Iraq. How could you invest in energy succesfuly if you were not aware the price of oil was expected to go down after we conqured Iraq.
The war profitter companies like Haliburtron and that company that promised the army all those armoured vehicles would be done by now but they are not.
These companies should have there assets siezed and any political contrabutions these companies made should be given to the Vets Admin hospital system with interest.
TeddySanFran @ 131
So it’s official then…!!!
Nationalize the oil companies.
Jonathan @ 114
What do you mean?
GordonM @ 130
sigh
I never understood how he got re-elected
TeddySanFran @ 129
I think I support this — unless someone convinces me I’m wrong.
TeddySanFran @ 134
Teddy ‘08!!! ;-)
New Thread.
Elliott @ 136
which is why we should not be complacent about the sorry lot the Republicans have to choose from now . . .
Elliott @ 136
Ohio’s official votes being serviced by the RNC servers in Chattanooga, TN, might be a good start…!!!
TeddySanFran @ 130
Shouldn’t you be linking this writeup?
Medicare and medicaid (and SS) are all good programs. The best thing to do to deal with health care in the US, imo, would be to scrap medicare B, take normal medicare and just extend it to everyone.
Taxation: go to strong progressivity, get rid of the capital gains exemptions, close most loopholes. Make companies pay tax on their earnings on their balance sheet. Proceed.
rwcole@117
I guess Bush’s plan is working as intended.
Loo Hoo. @ 133
Corporate america and GWB’s america give me an array of choices. The mall. The electoral college. Pesticide-infused food. Garbage on TV. Etc.
I’ve been looking for an out and have found one. Details omitted.
CTuttle @ 141
he wasn’t elected the first time, he was not re elected the second time
there were more votes then voters, precincts shut down, and surprise of all surprises, the poll in precincts said kerry won when the count showed bush
and that happened only whree there was no paper trail
this my friends was a silent coup, make no mistake about that, this is not our president
TeddySanFran @ 131
Jane had a thread on this, Teddy.
Informative post, thanks. But please! So many spelling mistakes and grammatical errors detract from your post. A little spell-check and/or editorial oversight goes a long way.
125 nuncamas says: August 25th, 2007 at 5:56 pm:
“Medicare and SS serve a lot of people with very little overhead/admin costs. The insurance companies operate on something like 30% admin expense, and all health care providers have exponentially more overhead cost in just dealing with the multitude of entities/programs, etc.”
–low overhead is good and would make things much better, but there is still the actual cost of delivering care, which is high in the US. Proposals for single payer, etc might lower those costs. But the costs of providing actual services are very high too in the US.
“Besides, are you saying Medicare/SS recipients are to blame?”
-NO! Social Security is OK, and no one should be “blamed” for a successful program. Medicare recpients are not to blame if the US health care insurance industry, and providers, and health care infrastructure (including financing, training etc.) is inefficient in terms of costs of providing a unit of service.
Jonathan @ 145
Your ‘out’ is most ominous, please be rational… 8-(
Just wandering by. I expanded item 22 of my scandals list on Bush tax cuts. The important one is this one:
About a trillion of this is slated for the rich. Our government has probably spent to date about as much on this welfare program for the wealthy as on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. So when you think about drains on the government you need to consider this one too.
Ian Welsh @ 143
I agree, especially about the taxes. For too long they’ve been an indirect instrument of economic policy, and they’re now so complicated that no business of any size would dare do their taxes without professional help.
CTuTTLe and SharkyCassandra You have the right idea. The USA needs a safety net for all those excluded from the corporate economy. Outsourcing, union busting and a service economy will drive poverty. Snarky not a class war, but a war between corporation rule via Repubs enslaving the populus. You nailed it in a sentence! And with Gore/Edwards you proposing Democracies revival! Read John Dean’s personality profile of Repubs ( Conservatives without Conscience) as double authoritarians & social conservative have delivered huge voting blocks to the Repub candidates via the Moral Majority of non traditional christians, ‘God willing and the creek don’t rise’ to the born agains like Shrub, fundamentalist, evangelicals and the christian conservatives, Take away their corporate slush funds and voila you have Democracy Now. There is a way to win back the constitutional Democracy
SnarKassandra @ 65
But that’s… that’s… HERESY!
We can’t allow clear thinking like that! {/snark}
Bob in HI
SnarKassandra @ 85
Good point.
Back in WWII, it used to be called WAR spending.
Could we call it “occupation expenses”?
Bob in HI
Is there a word or two missing from the above quote?
Research “push”?? Is “research and buy” a term of art? I just couldn’t translate.
One of the hardest things to combat in the coming “generational wars” is the “I’ve got or I want mine, so screw everyone else” attitude that was spawned by Reagan, nutured by Republicans and libertarians for 25 years, and which gets exacerbated during “hard times” like the present. Scared insecure people really want to hold on to what they’ve “got” and don’t feel safe enough to look at the bigger picture.
One reason I’m a big Edwards fan is I think he “gets” this and promotes a “we’re all in this together” philosophy.
If we had a good president, he [because the current “she” isn’t what I see as “good”] could go to the country and say “look, we’re all going to have to ‘give’ something to get us out of this hole the Repubs got us into.
“Boomers — those of you who have resources — you’re going to need to be ‘means tested’ for social security. Thus if you’ve got sufficient funds from other sources, we’re either not going to give you ‘all’ of ‘your’ ss, or we’re going to tax it. One reason we’re doing that is so we can pay for children’s health care.
“Military contractors — and we know the DOD has been very smart in putting one or more of you in every district so it’s hard to cut ‘your’ program — we’re going to have to cut back on unnecessary/unwanted-by-DOD weapons systems, etc. We’ll try to spread this around, and we’ll try to establish ‘other’ jobs in those districts that suffer from ending useless weapons production programs, but this is something else we’ve got to do to get our country to a better place.
“Big pharma and health insurance companies — you’re going to have to bite the Big Weenie. We can’t afford, as a country, to pour so many of our health care dollars into overpriced meds and people whose job it is to nickel & dime consumers about whether the insurance company is going to pay their claim. You’re outta here. We’re going to have a single payer system that pays most expenses. The money we save by no longer paying you bureaucrats and ’systems’ people will go a long way towards paying for this.
“And the ‘hidden costs’ of health care — like, for example, those that all of us pay for the uninsured to use emergency rooms (and thus hospitals not getting paid, but passing that cost on to everyone whose insurance company does pay for hospital visits) — once we take those out of the system and pay for everyone’s health care directly, that will go a long way in covering the cost of this.
“And education, housing, environmental protection — we’re ALL going to pay for that, because those are things that will make us a great country and a good, decent society.
“So get with the program, stop being so selfish, and ‘ask what you can do for your country.’ “
The “Flat Tax” and “Fair Tax” proponents are the biggest liars around.
For instance, if the United States found itself in another World War (like after someone bombs Iran), would we be able to fund this war through a “consumption” tax?
World War II serves as a prime example. Would a “consumption” tax have funded our eventual victory over the right-wing Nazis and the right-wing Imperial Japanese? Especially with all the rationing that was being called for so our nation’s resources to go to the war effort?
FDR hit on the right formula for success. A huge increase in taxation of wealthiest U.S. citizens so they’d bear the brunt of the war’s financing, while the rest of America sent their sons (and daughters) to fight the physical side.
So, of course, “silver spoon” Bush calls for tax cuts for the wealthy, while sending our less wealthy fellow citizens off to fight Bush’s neverending war on terror.
And some of Bush’s fellow “silver spoon” friends call for a Flat Tax or Fair Tax, which amounts to nothing more than a get-richer-quick scheme, which would shift the tax burden from them and onto the shoulders of those less wealthy in our society…at a time when so-called “entitlements” may increase, putting further stress on our nation’s tax coffers.
Why do Republicans (and certain conservative Democrats) hate our nation so much?
Mauimom @ 156. Thanks for the catch, I’ve corrected.
Ian Welsh @ 158
You’re welcome. Great post, BTW.
I’m curious if you have any reaction to my comments @ 156. [Always great to be EPU’d so no one reads you!! Not.]
TO begin let’s have the DOD name changed to The War Department. Let’s call a spade a spade.
Next lets decommission all these strike groups, fighter jets, nuclear boomers and close ALL offshore bases.
We need less than 15% of the military we have to defend the hell out of out borders.
Jane Hamsher @ 29
Having now fully read it: sometimes all you can say is that while I don’t hold with it, one can understand why some nations simply take such people out back…
~~~ModNote: Edited for content.~~~
Mauimom @ 159
Means testing: likely to destroy widespread support for SS. When FDR created it he said (paraphrasing), “it’s a lousy plan in most ways, but because people paid into it no damn politiican can ever take it away from them – they have the moral and political right to collect.”
Agree with the rest of it. There are maybe some clever things we can do with the military (turn a big chunk of it into “country reconstruction units” and have them start by rebuilding infrastructure in America, for example) but there’s going to have to be a lot of pain there. The health insurance companies simply have to be cut out and that’s going to be a huge battle. Edwards plan doesn’t go far enough because he’s not willing to tackle them head on (I figure you might as well, no plan will ever make them happy so you might as well just go for broke.)
‘I’ll learn from anyone. Or from anything’, ‘the teacher learns from the students’, ‘An open mind is essential……’
I like how Will Rogers put it: ‘We’re all ignorant, only on different topics.’
Ian Welsh @ 38
One could apply this exact same concept to our nation’s food supply. Americans have given up food made,grown and prepared here to outsourcing. It makes me pound my head on the desk,it’s among THE dumbest things we’ve ever done. This has destroyed family farming,and will continue to do so until farmers embrace diversity in farming again and we have more people willing to grow their own food and enough to help feed their neighbors.
Did you know that the Canadian dollar is almost at par with the US dollar and is expected to become more valuable in the next three years ? You need to get out of this war right now and restore some fiscal sanity to your households, businesses and government or your country is gone
Polaris @ 165
As a Canadian I’m not too happy about that. It’s happening for the wrong reason – because we’re now a petro economy. Blech.
No we are not in a bind! Really. We are in a repiglican meme brain wash stupor! The essential and I assert, false assumption of this entire article is it’s unchallenging acceptance of Conservative memes as to how Americans cannot and will not accept anything the Right wing proclaims is Sacred and therefore a political “Third rail”. Liberals for decades have been oblivious to and unwilling or incapable of developing effective responses to these Repiglican claims. I bet if the left had the courage, the will and determination to assert an effective counter attack to these wingnut memes they would be discredited in the mind’s of a majority of Americans quickly enough. Onone of the first of these lies/memes to go would be the “Death Tax’ and the Estate tax would easily and quickly re-established and then sum! We have and can change perceptions but only if we don’t accept defeat in advance of the discussion.
nuncamas @ 103
It’s a good idea to plan ahead, but Congress has trouble doing that sometimes. They also have a lot on their plate until probably next year about this time.
And, sometimes events force our hands, so we can’t always do things according to our own schedules.