There will be a brief filed shortly with the US Supreme Court in the Al Odah et al. v. US cases. I’ve spent some time reviewing a number of the matters from the DC Circuit decision that will be appealed, and I keep coming back to Kafka’s “The Trial.” And the fact that we are visiting so much of that on the defendants involved in these cases in the supposed name of law and order.
These defendants have been held for almost six years in US custody, in a US-controlled jurisdiction, and yet they have been denied basic constitutional protections by argument of a legal technicality that the US Supreme Court has more than once held to be without merit.
What does that system allow for at present, you may ask? Under the current system, the defendant bears the burden of proving innocence to a panel of military officers. They are proving their innocence to charges that, for the most part, they never fully get to see, based on evidence they aren’t allowed to review completely. This evidence is gathered from witnesses who are not identified to the defendants so that there is no possibility of independent investigation for the most part — because such information is deemed to be too highly classified for defendants to see it and, thus, they have no real opportunity to rebut these phantom charges and assertions whatsoever made by people who are kept anonymous to them.
Thus, the full extent of the charges are unchallengeable on the merits because the defendants never get to know what all the merits are.
In 2006, there were a series of reviews of information gathered on the detainees at Guantanamo that were put together through a combination of FOIA requests and other reporting and legal proceedings, and I want to share a summary of findings with everyone that brings this into sharp focus:
– A high percentage, perhaps the majority, of the 500-odd men now held at Guantanamo were not captured on any battlefield, let alone on “the battlefield in Afghanistan” (as Bush asserted) while “trying to kill American forces” (as McClellan claimed).
– Fewer than 20 percent of the Guantanamo detainees, the best available evidence suggests, have ever been Qaeda members.
– Many scores, and perhaps hundreds, of the detainees were not even Taliban foot soldiers, let alone Qaeda terrorists. They were innocent, wrongly seized noncombatants with no intention of joining the Qaeda campaign to murder Americans.
– The majority were not captured by U.S. forces but rather handed over by reward-seeking Pakistanis and Afghan warlords and by villagers of highly doubtful reliability.
These locals had strong incentives to tar as terrorists any and all Arabs they could get their hands on as the Arabs fled war-torn Afghanistan in late 2001 and 2002—including noncombatant teachers and humanitarian workers. And the Bush administration has apparently made very little effort to corroborate the plausible claims of innocence detailed by many of the men who were handed over….
It is, therefore, quite remarkable to learn (from Hegland) that well over half (75) of the 132 are not even accused of fighting the United States or its allies on any battlefield in post-9/11 Afghanistan or anywhere else.
Indeed, only 35 percent of them (more precisely, of the 115 whose court files specify the locus of capture) were seized in Afghanistan; 55 percent were picked up by Pakistanis in Pakistan.
The current CSRT system, under which the DOD has been operating since the Supreme Court decision in Rasul, allows for military officers to make decisions on guilt or innocence with no outside, third party review allowed by the Bush Administration under the current law which was enacted in the MCA in the fall of 2006.
One of the fundamental principles of the American judicial system is the right of an accused to confront the evidence and witnesses who accuse him. To deprive a defendant of basic rights of fairness and notification is bad enough. To do so relying on statements and accusations often obtained via torture or a paid bounty, neither of which is often disclosed to the defendant is even worse.
All these defendants have sought, for almost six years, is a trial in which the accusations presented against them are fully disclosed so that they can present rebuttal evidence on the full set of charges, and so that accusers can be confronted and their evidence challenged – something that is done every day in courts of law where human rights laws are followed and upheld. This used to be the standard toward which the US worked — and a standard which we held up to other nations as a model to follow.
No longer.
And worse, we now know that the CIA more than five years ago sent a memorandum to the WH stating that the majority of the detainees in Guantanamo ”didn’t belong there.” I hope to get more on the particulars of the brief filings on this case once they are docketed, but the Suspension Clause arguments alone with regard to habeas corpus ought to be instructive — not just for the Court, but for the members of Congress who hope to right this legal wrong by revoking the abominable MCA provision which unconstitutionally stripped these protections from detainees in US custody. More on this to come, I promise you that.
(Photo of razor wire and blue sky via rknickme.)
UPDATE: The brief has been filed, and the Center for Constitutional Rights has more on why the President is not above the law.
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zed?
Christy!
morning Christy
dos…
What kind of bullheaded nincompoopery is this?
loved you on Hartman yesterday…
BushCo moronics…
petwrecker @ 6
Yeah, you totally rocked! More radio and tv please!
I weep for my country and what these goons have done to it.
In 2006, there were a series of reviews of information gathered on the detainees at Guantanimo that were put together through a combination of FOIA requests and other reporting and legal proceedings,…
Yeah, that got a lot of play in the MSM, huh?
Amazing how prescient some of these writers were long ago? Kafka? Orwell? Many others.
TheraP — it is as though we are stuck in a sort of Kafka fused with Phillip K. Dick mindset.
The comparison with Kafka is literally true. I have heard Steve Wax, Federal Defender for the District of Oregon, who represents or assists in representation of many Guantanamo inmates, cite an almost exact identity of the text of The Trial and the regulations that govern these cases.
Great post, Christy.
Christy. Seriously great writeup.
Do you think the new makeup of SCOTUS will deep six any real adjudication of the claims? Or do you think Kennedy will have a spine here?
Kangaroo court is now in session.
realworld at 15 — I’m not certain. The last time around, Scalia was very blunt about the unconstitutional aspects of this — I’m hoping the fact that Huckleberry and Kyl shot him the finger with their antics on the MCA may keep him in that mode. But we’ll just have to see…
Great! Now I can call BushCo’s behavior “Kafkaesque” as well as “Orwellian.” Someone mentioned just last week that “Orwellian” was getting overused. ;-)
Great post Christy. Sure would make a good subject for a children’s book.
Is it that this nightmare might never be over, or is it that we have awakened to find out the nightmare is real?
wigwam — EPU’ed reply to you in the last thread.
because such information is deemed to be too highly classified for defendants to see it and, thus, they have no real opportunity to rebut these phantom charges and assertions whatsoever made by people who are kept anonymous to them.
my bold.
And who is to say that those charges and assertions aren’t being made by a clerk in the Pentagon?
Gee, I so *love* the trust I have in my government. /s
btw, gang, I’ve updated above with a link — the brief has been filed.
Can the briefs (including the 20 or so amicus briefs referred to in the CCR press release) be downloaded from the Supreme Court website? If not, is there another source?
Glad to see we’re finally getting a grip on the scope of violations to individuals.
While we shore up our willingness to defend citizens of other national origins, hopefully we will also remember that these methods are also being used against US citizens.
In our lives of critical thinking, it is best to remain skeptical of any allegations that are, as Christy stated,
If the charges are not fully vetted, then we’ve got no business meting out punishment.
Krugman has a column up today about how for the GOP, it’s all about race.
The administration has banked on the fact that there is so much hatred and distrust of people of Middle Eastern descent at this point (stoked by people like Malkin, who jump up and down screaming “Islamofacism” with shrieking regularity) that nobody will really care if their rights are abrogated, feeling like “well, they’re probably guilty of something.”
Levereging racism has been really useful tool for the GOP, allowing them to make tremendous headway towards destroying civil rights in this country.
You can almost see Karl Rove snickering and congratulating himself on his keen political acumen as he sketches this one out.
Jean2k @ 20
Yes.
I think that the best we can hope for is that the next administration (fingers obviously crossed that in a Guiliani/Clinton race we don’t end upwith Guiliani) expose the whole mess and dump the tragic travesty where it belongs, on the current administration. The courts aren’t going to do it for us. We’ve gone beyond rule of law in this country, at least where alleged terrorism is involved.
The whole Guantanamo business is going to be a millstone around the neck of the next administration in any event. It’s a national embarrassment, and we all share in it. Let’s just hope they don’t take the easy way out and let the poor prisoners rot there for the rest of their lives.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 12
You hit it, Christy. I’ve posted here before that IMO Dick’s novels & short stories, written in the 60s & 70s & arguably the most paranoid of all scifi writing, can be seen as the history of our current era under BushCo.
One of Dick’s wives remarked when he died that it’s like the rest of us are blind people trying to look into the future. Phil knew how to read Braille…
Diane Rehm show round up. This hour they will discuss the NIE report etc.
drshow@wamu.org 1800-433-8850
I’ll skip the “dick” then.
Juan Cole in Washington this morning.
Juan Cole: Lessons from Past Western Incursions in the Middle East
Juan Cole will discuss his new book, Napoleon’s Egypt: Invading the Middle East and the relevance and lessons of Napoleon’s expedition in Egypt to the current American occupation of Iraq. New America Foundation/American Strategy Program Director Steve Clemons will offer comments and moderate the discussion.
Juan Cole is a professor of Middle Eastern and South Asian history at the University of Michigan, the President of the Global Americana Institute, and the publisher of Informed Comment, a blog that specializes in providing translations and commentary on the modern Middle East.
Start: 08/24/2007 – 12:15pm
End: 08/24/2007 – 1:45pm
New America Foundation
1630 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. 7th Floor
Washington, DC, 20009
United States
Jane@26–
I think there’s an interesting (if horrifying) connection between the GOP’s racism strategy and what Christy writes about Guantanamo in the post: namely that the Bushites want us to think it’s okay to strip “certain people” of their rights and make them disappear. You can spot these “certain people” by the darker shades of their skins. Today, it’s random Muslims. Tomorrow, it’s illegant immigrants. And the day after that, legal immigrants…
Good morning, Christy, Jane, and all.
It’s good to hear of the brief being filed, but in the end, I can’t help believing it will be treated just like every other court proceeding Bush has found inconvenient. How many subpoenas have they ignored? How many email messages lost? How many crimes have they committed, smirked over, and washed their hands of? How many people tortured to death?
My biggest fear is that no one outside of the blogosphere seems to much care, these precedents will be established, and voila’! The President may not be above the law, but the Unitary Executive sure seems to be.
Juan Cole had this yesterday
Military Coup Planned for Iraq?
O/T but looking for some input….if there’s a coup in Iraq, does that give us/require us to leave?
Any chance this is Bush’s Plan B? I figure he’s behind a plot to get rid of Maliki and take the pressure off him.
Kathleen @ 32
Looks like it’ll be broadcast live on CSPAN, according to juancole.com.
Sha at 36 — Here’s an even bigger question, if there is a coup — and the Kurds split off in the north. And then there is a conflict that arises with Turkey. Are we bound by our NATO agreement to come to Turkey’s defense in any altercation?
Alright, I’ve only had one cup of coffee, so all of the cylinders aren’t firing yet, but I still can’t wrap my mind around this: How is the Iraqi military (which hasn’t stood up yet, seeing as how we haven’t stood down) supposed to stage a coup in a country where we have 100,000 troops on the ground whose (supposed) goal is ensuring the success of the democratically-elected government? If the coup succeeds, doesn’t that mean that the American military objective in Iraq has failed?
Jane @ 26:
I’m just waiting for Repug strategists to come up with a quite subtle racial subtext attack on Obama should either he be the Dem nominee or is VP on a ticket.
katymine @ 35
I must be missing something. I understood that Iraq does not have enough military to secure the country…one of the reasons that we still hang around killing and creating mayhem… yet here we are expecting the military to take over.
Don’t understand…. anyone explain?
I would say, off the cuff, that a coup or assassination in Iraq gives Bush an excuse to stay, in order to stabilize the situation and shepherd Iraq through the crisis in leadership.
I started to say, “to keep someone from doing something stupid”, but I’m afraid that ship has sailed.
Please send in your great questions about the NIE report to drshow@wamu.org. 1-800-433-8850. Addressing this issue right now.
Is $300K enough to become next Iraqi prime minister?
RonD @ 34
They sure as heck care up north: the so-called “Canadian brief” bears the signatures of 30 current and former MPs (including the current leader of one of the major parties and a former Justice Minister) and 61 law professors.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com…..ional/home
Can’t wait to see the reaction to this from Rightblogistan.
Sha @ 36
Plan B – that’s the speculation, that Bush will allow a coup and then say that the “new government” obviously needs time – so we need to stay.
Or could Bush be simply trying to give Maliki some street cred by floating rumors of a US-supported coup?
CHS @ 38:
If a partition of Iraq is imposed by the US (which I doubt will actually happen) or if Iraq by itself fragments into a partition, it’ll be a mess all around. As I said in my debate with brendan yesterday, no one (US, Russia, Syria, Iran, Jordan, and especially Turkey), wants an independent Kurdistan for all sorts of different reasons.
That business about confronting accusers is especially important. Until they are confronted, they are free to say anything they want and to embellish upon it and contradict it to their hearts’ content. If the stories they are telling are untrue, the accused are the only ones who stand between the false witnesses and the rest of the world, including the citizens of the United States.
If there truly is anything resembling a war on terror, can we afford anything less than the truth? Secret testimony hides it.
Bustednuckles @ 16
and their added-value, torture-condoning psychologists
These are all OT but I haven’t seen them linked to:
What can happen when people go to meet their representatives — Dana Milbank on Tom Davis:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02011.html
Another example of dumbbell Hillary Clinton undermining the Democratic party (following her comments the other day about Waiting for Petraeus and “signs of progress” in Anbar province). Matthew Yglesias links to NYPost piece (this time they couldn’t have selectively quoted her):
http://matthewyglesias.theatla…..p#comments
I stopped subjecting myself to Charles Krauthammer (He should fill the pool and try that dive again) years ago but the phrase “Serious people like Levin…” leapt out at me across the page from an op-ed on the Maliki coup:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01833.html
CHS;
have they righted any wrongs yet?
Just a friendly reminder folks. Please choose one screen name and stick with it. Frequently changing names can get you banned.
Thanks.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 38
Christy, I believe our NATO obligation to Turkey kicks in if Turkey is attacked, NOT in a situation where Turkey is launching on someone else. The read here is thus:
A) Kurdistan declares independence, eventually, regardless of what happens in Baghdad, though Maliki’s gov’t falling would provide the excuse:”We can’t depend on Baghdad. We must look after ourselves.” Turkey immediately invades Kurdistan.
B)US troops caught between warring Peshmerga and Turkish regulars.
C)Iranian troops entering N.Iraq, in support of Turkey. I’ve heard that Iran is already allowing Turkish Army units transit rights through Iran, and Iran has its own Kurd problem.
D)Engagements between US and Iranian units provides fig leaf for invasion of Iran.
Biodun @ 47
You left out Israel, which has had an interest in an autonomous Kurdistan for a long time now. Not a bad thing in itself, until it becomes a stepping stone towards the partition of Iraq.
Jane Hamsher @ 26
bold mine
good point, Jane, and there’s more.
Given the fact that many of the detainees don’t want to be repatriated
should Gitmo be shut down, (TPMmuckraker article here)
…that tells you something about the true nature of their “guilt” — that within the context of their own group (or as a dissenter thereof), their primary offense was to find themselves in an administrative minority.
This is why we, as defenders of Democracy, confronted with the might-makes-right bastardization of justice, must be vigilant over the rights of those in numeric minorities.
We have to have to huevos to ask, what is the whole story?
Perhaps an unwillingness to partake in a bastardized numbers-game
is the primary ‘offense’.
Remember, in a fascist/police state, you’re either with them, or against them.
From the NYTimes editorial today:
Basically saying there will be a regime change and/or a military coup.
sporkovat at 51 — You mean like raising the minimum wage for the first time in years? Or passing an expanded SCHIP law (which hasn’t yet been signed by Bush)? Or outing an enormous amount of wrongdoing with public hearings, including the war profiteering ones? Or did you simply mean that to be demeaning and snarky because things aren’t moving quickly enough for you on every single front on which you would like action?
They do not have the numbers to win every battle, in either the House or the Senate. Just look at the work that Matt Stoller is pushing – with help from us and others — on the “Bush dogs” to see why that is. That they are still fighting a lot of these battles, in public, and airing a lot of this information out is still an enormous step forward from what we were getting with the Republicans who did no oversight whatsoever.
Are they perfect? Hell no. Are they trying on a lot of issues? Yes. And I’ll take that with an eye toward how we can continue to push them to do more when and where they can. Beating them about the head constantly because they haven’t met some perfect ideal only feeds into the GOP “do nothing” meme — which, last I checked, isn’t a good strategy and, worse, isn’t true.
Redshift @ 21
Glenn Greenwald thinks that Levin’s statement signals Democratic backing for continuing the war:
I conjecture that Levin is getting pressure from somewhere.
Crap! The Government’s request for en banc reconsideration of al-Marri has been granted by the Fourth Circuit.
http://news.lp.findlaw.com/ap/…..adee2.html
Christy Hardin Smith @ 38
NATO being basically the result of a mutual-defense treaty, I think we would only have to support Turkey if Turkey were attacked. Of course, they could easily provoke an attack from the Kurds. It may come down to the actual treaty language on whether the attacker need be a nation-state for mutual-defense to kick in.
…Yet yesterday, the historian, MIT professor John Dower, called Bush’s use of his work “perverse“:
al Marri decision for reconsideration…
Off on the business of the Queen. See everyone later.
katymine @ 35
I always thought of the repeated military coups in Vietnam that the U.S. tolerated and/or sponsored as strategic desperation at best and as serial scapegoating at worst. In either case, it was not a tactic that worked very well.
RonD @ 53
Sounds like Bushco would love a coup to take place.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 38
That’s a disaster waiting to happen.
you know, this issue is also the democrats fault who meekly repeat the mantra;
“it’s unconstitutional”
what they needed to do was put a friggin face on what’s happening, they needed to do things like;
“I don’t want some depraved sicko allowed to make up laws and put me in jail, if I am in jail I don’t want them to be able to make believe there is valid “evidence”, I want to be able to show that evidence is manufactured”
that’s the way this debate needs to be framed, that “it’s unconstitutional” or “it violates habeas corpus” is just not powerfull enough
Christy Hardin Smith @ 38
NATO being basically the result of a mutual-defense treaty, I think we would only have to support Turkey if Turkey were attacked. Of course, they could easily provoke an attack from the Kurds.
It may come down to the actual treaty language on whether the attacker need be a nation-state for mutual-defense to kick in.Looked this up, just says “any attacker” per Wikipedia on NATO.Biodun @ 56
If there is a military coup in Iraq, it will be because the US told them to go ahead with it. That would leave a strongman in charge. Bush’s BS about supporting Maliki is just a cover..D’oh, gee, Maliki, we didn’t know they were going to do that. They (US) want him out, but they don’t want it to look like they are behind it. Maybe that’s what “September” has really been about all along.
Ari Fleischer is really trying to jump big sharks
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0823.html
OMG are they that ignorant?
The Israeli-Kurdistan connection/network:
From Seymour Hersh in 2004:
brendan: After our debate yesterday, I did some research on this connection. Thanks.
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/331/index.html
christie-on the show ‘now’ on pbs august 3rd, lieutenant commander charles swift was on…..he’s the one who won a case at the supreme court for a detainee..was appointed to be an attorney for a detainee, he’s a jag…was a really good show……he is retiring, but is going to continue the case…….
the show was informative.
and tonight, according to his website, bill moyers is talking about msm and suppression of news.
(but on my local listing it’s about the aftermath of katrina……..so don’t know which week it will be on for everyone else…..)
Bush’s legacy will be the fact that he re-ignited the Cold War. This time around though, the world will view America as the “Evil Empire”. – Thank You Bush and the GOP.
Christy and all have you read the report about Turkey at the New America foundation. Well worth the read. I am having a problem linking today.
Executive Summary
Is The United States Losing Turkey?
By Rajan Menon, New America Foundation
S. Enders Wimbush, Hudson Institute
New America Foundation | March 26, 2007
It is becoming increasingly clear that Washington and Ankara see the world and define their interests in divergent ways. If allowed to continue, this trend could well undo the alliance.Learn More About:
Rajan Menon
On February 5th and 6th, 2007, the Hudson Institute, with support from the Smith Richardson Foundation, convened a small workshop of noted specialists on Turkey, Europe, and international security to assess the state of America’s alliance with Turkey and, more specifically, to ascertain whether the United States risks “losing” Turkey as a long-time and critical ally. The workshop was part of a project directed by Rajan Menon, Professor of International Relations at Lehigh University and Fellow at the New America Foundation. S. Enders Wimbush, Director of the Center for Future Security Strategies at the Hudson Institute, served as chairman of the workshop. This report, while it draws on the discussions that occurred during the workshop, is an independent analysis written by Messrs. Menon and Wimbush. The memoranda prepared by the experts in advance of the workshop and the list of participants appear in the appendix to this document.
OT, but this has some really good background etc on Dennis Kucinich.
Hillary scares me.
Edwards I like, but Dennis Kucininich walks the walk, talks the talk and is THE ONLY ONE to stand up against the war machine and the white house, AND he has not backed down.
We don’t need another smooth political operator, we need a scrapper with heart and a honest backbone. Dennis is the only one who is not afraid to take on the machine….
I no longer fear the Kucinich Revolution: Part 3.
http://bluenc.com/i-no-longer-…..on:-part-3
Links to part one and two are also here..
twolf1 @ 61
Any analogies to what happened in Japan after WWII and any hope that it will happen in Iraq is absurd, to say the least. The borders of Iraq were thrust upon its inhabitants after WWII. Japan’s borders, Japan proper and not the numerous colonies they established in WWII, have existed for over 6000 years. It is trully provincial and xenophobic and smacks of the idea that any non-”white” country can be compared with any other non-”white” country. It is shortsighted, idiotic and typical of this administration.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 57
i’d add one more good thing this congress is doing – they are in the process of making the transcripts of committee hearings more readily accessible (within three weeks instead of up to 2 years), and for house committee hearings – the video. this has the potential to allow much more and better citizen oversight of our congress.
…
as i think everyone here knows, i’m mad as hell at congress about fisa, iran, iraq and the secret trade deal… but most of those failures don’t represent all democrats in congress – there are some working hard to do and say the right things (feingold, whitehouse, leahy) but they do not seem to have the support of their feckless leadership.
ackack @ 48
Calm, surgical perspective, and great question.
Shows you where the real terror lies. And, I do mean lies.
Fisa update = Total Information Awareness, with mirrors
Couldn’t leave without one more thing: Here’s what could happen, re Iraq, Turkey, Iran, and the Kurds.
The Nightmare Scenario, pt.3.
Likewise, links to parts 1 & 2 are here as well.
Now, really gone. Have a nice day, everyone.
egregious @ 5
see how useful it is?! perfect heading for all sorts a mayhem. beats crying as we work our beat, sigh.
;->
katymine @ 70
Dishonest. Truth is not something they know about.
katymine @ 70
You have to ask?
IMO, they don’t seem to understand anything before Reagan. It’s all prehistory to them.
Biodun @ 71
It’s difficult to believe that Israel would spurn one of its only allies by supporting the Kurds. Who is more valuable to Israel, Turkey or Kurdistan? Sure a united Kurdistan would weaken Syria, Iran, as well, but I find it hard to believe that the greater policy toward Israel would change much, especially after fostering the breakup of several muslim states. But, whaddo I know?
1. Why doesn’t someone — Edwards, Kucinich — run on a “Restoration of the Constitution” Banner. They would draw in conservatives and liberals. Shine a spotlight on this shit.
2. Anyone listen to Democracy Now this morning (www.democracynow.org) about the new rules easing Mountain top removal mining? The new spin is it’s “safer” than underground mining — which it isn’t. It levels mountains, destroys stream, ruins mountains and mt. communities forever for a few ribbons of coal.
3. How can Iraqi army overthrow civil govt w/out our help or control? We control the govt — isn’t it located in our green zone? Doesn’t the parliament meet in the Green Zone? Bush is right, this does sound more and more like Viet Nam: first the lies to get us in; then the coup to keep us in. When do we get to the humiliating withdrawal?
Got the Juan Cole question on
Thank you, Christy, for focussing some clear, searing daylight on this.
The administration is running out of places to hide, at long last…
Got the question (Juan Cole) on as a rumor
dmac @ 72
BTW: The last time Moyers was on I made the biggest contribution to my PBS station I could afford. I no longer give when they air old musicians (though I watch them :-) ) This is the best way to let PBS we want more like him on the air. If you can give to PBS call during Moyer’s show.
katymine @ 70
carter made eisenhower and kermit roosevelt overthrow mossadegh.
IrishJim @ 73
The legacy that Bush cares about is the one he will have with his family and cronies. They will view the Bush era as one where their personal wealth increased like never before. The legacy with the rest of us is of no interest to the Preznit.
Biodun @ 47
Two more points.
Iran wouldn’t want an independent Kurdistan, per se, but mightn’t they tolerate it as part of a partition that left them with a Shiite satellite state? That’s not a rhetorical question; I don’t know.
Saying the “U.S.” doesn’t want it isn’t true. Michael O’Hanlon didn’t come up with the bright idea all by himself. There is no enthusiasm for these kinds of cartographic improvisations…except among the people in power.
As they say, 9-11 changed everything. Traditional notions of “stability” and warmed over Kissinger realpolitik aren’t operative with neoconservatives.
And here we go. (Mods: Per your advice, second and final installment from a linked article.)
brendan: Remember, Yugoslavia figured in our deabte yesterday.
katymine @ 70
Once Rove gets going on saving the Bush legacy, Fleisher will look like an honest man.
Jean2k @ 20
TBA
This from the previous thread:
What’s the old “duck test”? If it walks like …
Well, if it’s a power associated with tyants, and if it’s a power a person can arrogate without consequences, and if it is persisted in, then it seems that we have a duck on our hands.
RonD@53
There was a report in this morning’s Sacramento Bee (McClatchy) about an Iranian raid into north Iraq. Chasing after the PKK, the Kurdish nationalist group. I’ll see if I can find an online link…
OT, but well worth a read if you haven’t seen it already:
Hilzoy on Bush’s speech.
I did get a question about the article at Juan Coles website on the Diane Rehm show this morning. I posed the “coup” question as Juan Cole posed the question…. as a rumor.
Later on the program Diane Rehm asked who Juan Cole is? She had him on her program on August 30, 2006 to discuss the war in Iraq. Encouraged her to go hear him speak today.
Hope Diane has Juan Cole on as a guest again.
yellowsnapdragon @ 84
This is a good argument, but the Turks evidently hate us and the Israelis by now. Someone here linked recently to lots of good stuff about our ex-ambassador to Turkey, neocon Edelman. There’s also the increased popular loathing of the U.S. (if you’re thinking I’m conflating the U.S. and Israel, you’re right, I am) in Turkey which was actually enough to nix our plans to invade Iraq from the north (remember Wolfowitz’s revolting comments about wishing the army would step in?).
Think of it another way: what is more valuable to Israel: an increasingly tepid ally Turkey or a partitioned Iraq?
Anyway, that’s all moot. The evidence is in on Israeli intelligence and military involvement in Kurdistan. I’ll go look for links.
brendan @ 92
Kurds are Sunni, and the population is, in general, devout. A lot of the modern Kurdish resistance in Turkey (PKK) has its roots in Marxism and came about during the 1970’s. Both aren’t exactly what Iran is looking for in a satellite state.
Another DOJ head (civil rights) resigns:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08…..ref=slogin
For the thousandth time: one nickname per user here, or you may be subject to banning. AND NO impersonation of actual people as your nickname — you get to be whomever you choose as a nickname, but you can’t pretend to be someone you are not. I hope that is clear enough. If you have questions, feel free to e-mail me at ReddHedd AT aol DOT com.
OK, quit pissin off the Mods AND Christy. It ain’t healthy.
brendan:
US intentions in Kurdistan:
My bold. Precisely because the US and Turkey still see each other as allies.
RonD @ 80
Good Heavens!
Biodun:
Links to stories I remember reading:
http://www.newyorker.com/archi…..628fa_fact
http://www.guardian.co.uk/isra…..88,00.html
The quotes from the Turkish guy you provided are just stating the obvious: they’ve been fighting/suppressing separatists (I am totally unqualified to offer an opinion on the merits of either side in that conflict) in Turkey and don’t want to be at a further disadvantage.
selise @ 77
I can’t accept “feckless” as a legitimate explanation for what the Democrats are doing in Congress.
We’ve watched them cave on bill after bill in ways that are completely inexcusable — they could always filibuster bad legislation but they don’t. They could always charge “inherent contempt” when the White House declines to provide documents and/or witnesses, but instead they whimper.
And what about the parade of “little-noticed provisions” that come tumbling out of these bills? And nobody gets fired for lack of due dilligence.
And how about the better FISA fix that got side tracked to the Suspense Calendar, where it needed a 2/3 majority?
Nobody is that feckless. These people are bowing to pressure from somewhere on all matters having to do with mideast policy and/or security vs. civil liberties.
Sha @ 106
Where’s Cassandra?
yellowsnapdragon @ 101
You misunderstood me. I meant a Shiite satellite state based in the south of Iraq, i.e., an independent K. would be an acceptable price to pay for that.
Badwater @ 94
Ari Fleisher should be in jail or at the very least impeached so that he can not slip back into a future administration. This right wing radical lied about WMD’s both before and after the invasion, outed an undercover CIA agent, received immunity for his crime, and is now out trying to stir up more support for the Bush administration’s crimes against humanity(and his) by continuing to link what is taking place in Iraq to 9/11.
Ari Fleisher is a thug working for the “Noble Lie” socio-paths club. He belongs in jail for his crimes not on National Television spreading more lies.
Enough!
This is one of the worst offenses we’ve ever committed as a nation–right up there with Japanese internment and the carpetbombing of noncombatant civilians in WWII, Vietnam and Iraq.
A large chunk of what is considered Kurdistan is in Iran. So game this logic with the folks worried about a greater Mexico in the American southwest.
Iran don’t want no Kurdistan.
-GSD
selise @77:
I suggest you link again to your gripping FISA bill timeline whenever this point about “fecklessness” comes up. I can’t recommend it enough.
From the New Yorker article Christy references:
Shorter Addington: “I’m mighty fond of kangaroos. Particularly in court.”
wigwam @ 106
fair enough. i take back the “feckless”.
the nother possibility (other than outside pressure) – that many of them just don’t agree with us (although they want us to think that they do – hence the kabuki)
The Kurds will get tossed under the oncoming bus when it is convenient.
Rest assured.
-GSD
The lord has revealed that there is a new thread upstairs.
katymine @ 70
No, they are counting on the public’s ignorance. Never discount their desire to edit reality to suit their purposes
I hate to leave a discussion about Turkey and Kurdistan, but I have to work on my son’s birthday cake. Ack.
selise @ 116
That would mean that, compared to the public at large, a bigger percentage of the Democrats in Congress agree with Bush. How can that be?
Why the reluctance to accept the external pressure hypothesis?
brendan @ 114
here you are….. but i really recommend emptywheel’s post – she combines our timeline and alter’s reporting.
I came late to the thread. It is my understanding that the CSRTs despite their Star Chamber quality, are restricted to making a finding of “enemy combatant”. A military court has found in Khadr/Hamdan that this designation does not meet the standard set forth in the MCA of “unlawful enemy combatant”. As a result, no detainee can be sent on to face trial before a military commission.
In other words, the government screwed up, again.
Japan’s borders, Japan proper and not the numerous colonies they established in WWII, have existed for over 6000 years.
Hmmm…. you’ve just tripled, at least, the age of the Japanese nation. Two thousand years ago (not six, two), most of Japan was under control of aboriginal peoples related to the modern Ainu. The place-names that still remain testify to the extent of their control: do you know, for instance, that Fuji is not a “native” Japanese word but a borrowing from Ainu?
The Yamato court, inspired by the imported Chinese doctrine of the Mandate of Heaven (which they re-interpreted as a single ruler for a single country, instead of a single ruler for the whole world), took nearly fifteen centuries to fight its way up the length of the main island, Honshu. It was a very long process, and the Japanese armies got their asses handed to them in a major way several times by aboriginal fighters. The last field engagement between aboriginal forces and the Japanese was in the last half of the sixteenth century CE, near a northern Honshu village named Kiraichi. And that doesn’t count Hokkaido, which the Japanese didn’t even try to make their own culturally until the nineteenth century.
In other words, Japan is just as much “conquered land” as the United States is. The Japanese were just a bit better at assimilating / hiding / wiping out the former owners.
It’s a small point, but my younger son is one-eighth Ainu and his mother’s family come from the Kiraichi area, so I thought I’d set it straight.
Oh, and anyone who compares postwar Japan with Iraq is full of sh*t.
sunsin @ 124
tell it, hell yes!
GSD @ 117
I somewhat agree. The Kurds have been victims for decades. They’ve been thrown under the bus by just about everyone–except Israel so far, which, of course, is only looking after its own interests as always.
wigwam @ 121
yes. and i think that’s probably true in other areas as well. the people who are able to get elected do not represent the demographics of the whole country (especially economic).
i don’t object to the external pressure hypothesis – i just don’t think it is the only worthwhile hypothesis to consider.
selise @ 127
I agree. Sometimes we make unwarranted assumptions, that, for example, Democratic officeholders must hold Democratic values. For the first 6 years of the Bush Administration, there were Democratic officeholders, but no Democratic values to be seen. There was no opposition. To assume that these Democrats were just biding their time, that they were firebrands in waiting, goes against the evidence.
When in the minority, Democrats in Congress did little or nothing to block the Republican agenda, and as the Republicans are currently showing us, this is something they could have done. Now in the majority Democrats continue to do far less than those who elected them would wish.
Certainly, they face outside pressure, but then so do the Republicans. Yet the different reactions to the pressures they face are striking. Democratic officeholders behave the way they do mostly because that is who they are.
selise @ 127
Do you honestly believe that in their hearts the democratic leaders support Bush’s Iraq policy and his trampling of the constitution (i.e., MCA, FISAfix, etc.) in spite of the fact that the overwhelming majority of citizens don’t?
Sunsin @ 124
I’ve heard that archeology seems to indicate invasion from the Korea peninsula before 800CE.
Lurking mods: thanks for fixing that broken quote (couldn’t get in to edit it when I saw it) ….
wigwam @ 129
here’s my tentative conclusions (as always, new info can provoke major rethinking):
some of them – yes.
many of them – don’t care.
edit – i should add that my thinking on this is not just based on the last 6 years… but also on the clinton years.
CHS @ 57… thanks, not everyone can relate the national (D) accomplishments off the top of their heads.
I understand that ‘the perfect can be the enemy of the good’ but my position isn’t that they ought to be perfect, it is that there are structural reasons (campaign finance) that activist constituents have less influence on elected politicians than corporate and lobbyist money.
selise @ 131
The vast majority of democrats in congress voted against the FISA fix. The leaders like Pelosi adamantly protest that they don’t favor like the bill. But that’s the bill they allowed to get to the floor, either because:
– they secretly liked it, or
– they had outside pressures on them.
An interesting question.
At the SibelEdmonds blogspot.com. (not able to link today). Sibel has much to say about the Richard Perle, Douglas Feith connection/work in Turkey.
Tuesday, September 19, 2006
Doug Feith, Richard Perle and Marc Grossman
Richard Perle and Doug Feith are the ’stars’ of Kill The Messenger.
In May 2006, Phil Giraldi wrote an article about Sibel’s case which Sibel described as:
“a fantastic short piece by Phil Giraldi; it sums up the case very well, considering the length… as far as published articles go, this one nails it 100%”
Here’s a snippet from Giraldi’s article:
Someone has to be in the middle (of the Turkish, Israeli, American military/economic machine) to keep the happy affair going, so enter the neocons, intent on securing Israel against all comers and also keen to turn a dollar. In fact the neocons seem to have a deep and abiding interest in Turkey, which, under other circumstances, might be difficult to explain. Doug Feith’s International Advisors Inc, a registered agent for Turkey in 1989 – 1994, netted $600,000 per year from Turkey, with Richard Perle taking $48,000 annually as a consultant.
wigwam @ 129
I dredge up this quote of Harry Reid on the Senate floor made September 25, 2006 about the MCA:
The MCA happened because Harry Reid went out of his way to make sure it happened. The FISA fiasco happened because Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi rigged the parliamentary procedure to make sure it passed. Back in May, after a Democratic version (already watered down) of the Iraq supplemental was vetoed, neither Pelosi nor Reid sought to fight it out on the issue of withdrawal despite the November 2006 mandate. They set up a “for show” vote but caved on the substance.
If the Congressional Democrats and their leadership don’t want to appear to support such horrendous pieces of legislation, maybe they should try not supporting them instead of facilitating them. Just saying.
I still say that we have the power to scare the hell out of them (Pelosi and Reid). If you are a Dem, or someone who contributes to either of these people….call their offices and politely say, I will not contribute one penny to your next campeign or to the Democratic party machine. You do not represent me. My money will go to those Dems who have spoken out and voted against the legislation to restore the Constitution. You, (madam, or sir) are irrelevent. If you get back into office, it will be because of corporate doners, and that puts you in a completely different camp. If enough of us do that, they will listen. If enough real Republican voters (not the wingnuts) realize what is at stake and do that, then there will be progress. If money makes the town go around, then cut it off. The Congress pays scant attention to e-mails and phone calls about issues. E-mails and phone calls about money (with followup) will get attention.
wigwam @ 133
yes, but they knew it was going to pass. would they have voted against it if their vote would have caused it to fail?
i am a bit sceptical because it’s hard for me to see how the leadership could get away with manipulating the rules in order to get an outcome the majority of the caucus claims to be against. if that were really true, wouldn’t the caucus have something to say to their leadership on that? the sound of *crickets*, i think, is a clue.
cynic @ 136 –
amen. our voices may be small compared to the big money – but we do have a voice and can we work together to make our voices heard.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: these detention camps like Guantanamo have but a single purpose: to psychologically deter “Islamic terrorists” from committing acts of terrorism in the first place. How? By placing the spectre of indefinite, utter isolation as the risk of being captured. How better to fail in your jihad, how worse a failure to your god, than by being rendered alive yet wholly useless to Allah. No eternal paradise, just eternal punishment for being a f**k-up.
Screw humanitarian ethics, let alone the law. The ends justify the means. Don’t make us much different from the “terrorists”, does it?
Hugh @ 135
That quote from Reid is amazing. I remember Kennedy, Levin, Dodd, and several others making stirring speeches denouncing the MCA on the floor of the Senate. Any of them could have filibustered, but none did. We have to believe that all those pretty words were a sham. Despite what they said, in their hearts they favored the loss of Habeus Corpus. Appalling.
“GUANTÁNAMO SUPREME COURT BRIEF FILED TODAY ARGUES THAT EXECUTIVE BRANCH IS NOT ABOVE THE RULE OF LAW”
This is the headline on the CCL article about the brief. Sounds like something out of The Onion.
P J Evans @ 130
And how does that differ from what Sunsin said…that you tripled the period of time that modern Japanese (non-Ainu) entered the islands. You originally said that the modern Empire had its roots 6000 years ago. That’s not just before 800 CE (~ 800 AD). It was the Jomon Culture that first appears in the Archipelago some 8000 years ago…and Jomon is accepted to be the precursor to AINU culture. The entry of ethnic Japanese came MUCH later.
And Japan is probably one of the Archaeologically best researched regions of the world, with almost one preserved and excavated site per hectare! So there is little room for some new “breakthrough” on these points.