Just curious. Putting your political affiliations aside, which ad do you find the most effective? In battleground states like Maine or Pennsylvania, where the various sides are duking it out, which ad do you think will have the greatest impact?
1. Ari Fleischer’s “Freedom Watch“:
2. VoteVets:
3. Americans United for Change:
Regardless of which ad takes the day, I can’t imagine any Republican candidate welcoming this battle in their own back yard as they enter an election year. It’s like a giant roving pile of dogshit that moves every time you try to put your foot down. I guess the “permanent Republican majority” got sacrificed to George Bush’s enormous ego pretty quickly.
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zip?
head zed
zed
Jane!!!!
I was just driving by, and noticed a “no comments.”
Singles! (Can’t do the you tube thing on this computer. I blame Clinton.)
I’m showing #2 and #3 as the same ad… don’t know if that’s supposed to be that way…
if I had no facts, the Freedom Watch ad is very effective… hits on a much more emotional plane…
we need to do better.
The last two clips seem to be the same? Were there supposed to be three different ones?
Well, to me the first ad is way too over the top — clips of a guy clopping around on prothsetics and clips of the towers burning look to me like a cynical use of very real, very hard things for a personal gain.
But that’s me.
I just saw the Fleischer AIPEC ad (no.1) for the first time here. THe swinging door looks ghostly(scary) and the Vet, well, his getting up and walking without legs, makes me want to run away from the ad. (HItchcockian) It is like a horror show. I think it will backfire on them. On the other hand, the VoteVet ad has someone talking in a straight forward way. It is sunny. He looks like the kid next door and he is giving me straight talk. I think this is very effective.
the first ad is a clear lie, the second is the clear truth
however in the battle states, the lie will play in my opinion
this guy has the nerve to say “they attacked us”
now if we are smart our candidates hit back hard;
“they did not attack us, that is a lie, Iraq did not attack us, did not threaten us, did not harbor terroristss and the man that produced this ad is a liar”
any way, that’s the way I would respond
some more republicans are strating to come on board, from think progress;
I don’t think that the “they attacked us” meme is going to sell. It’s not true about Iraq and most Americans know its not true.
Didn’t the Republicans attack some Democrat for using images of 9-11 in an advertisement? I seem to recall this, but can’t remember the details.
Anyway, it would be shocking to discover that Republicans are hypocrites.
Or not.
Jane Hamsher:
Is it “George Bush’s ego” Mel Sembler and Ari Fleischer are fighting for with those ads?
The first ad is heartbreaking but not for the reasons that Ari and company would have us think.
What Ari and this poor vet either don’t understand or choose to ignore is that his sacrifice (assuming he lost his legs in Iraq) already means nothing as it did not happen to advance the cause of the US and freedom, only the cause of the war-mongers and PN*C signatories.
But the third ad is most effective IMNSHO.
This is another GREAT ad.
I don’t like either of them – but maybe it is the combination of the two of them together. If I had to watch these a few times, I would be inclined to say a pox on both your houses – and then go have a beer.
I wonder how much the 9/11 images are there to support the “they attacked us” lie on an emotional level, and how much they’re just to generate controversy so that the ads will get free coverage from news outlets.
EPU’d live
Cspan1 Live
Warner pulling the old bait and switch… Peace is at hand as we speak by a Gang of 5? WTF?
Our soldiers performing brilliantly blah blah blah.
He just got back from the WH with his talking points intact. Watch it and weep for those to be killed in the next two friedman units.
ok, the last ad? priceless
“It’s like a giant roving pile of dogshit that moves every time you try to put your foot down.”
I wish I had written that!!
The first ad is more effective because it’s more visual. The second ad is mostly a talking head. The visual impact of a guy who lost his limbs in Iraq telling you to stay in Iraq is more compelling than a shot of guy who served in Iraq sitting down like a lump of coal.
kdoug @ 17
This one is better than the other three!
Third ad is too over-the-top with the music and sound effects. Doesn’t work with such serious subject matter.
perris @ 11
or the man in the ad believed what he said because he was lied to?
and paid a tragic life long price for that lie
i’ll butt out now
OK, I’ve refreshed and watched the 3rd ad… it’s got a good, solid punch-in-the-head quality… and has a good “back talk” kinda sense to it.
KagroX posted on dKos another ad that answers the “freedom swatch” people much more effectively, IMO. Can someone link to it? I tried.
edit: see msmolly @24
While the 3rd ad could be considered over the top, it is still a very good answer to ad #1…
sometimes it is a mistake to “argue” too quietly.
#3 (which wasn’t up before) sounds too produced (outside groups coming down on Collins). No. 2 is down home Maine looking, plus she looks really grim (a grainy b/w image) which contrasts nicely with the blue shirted Vet.
scout211 [formerly sjvalleygal] @ 28
Actually, kdoug@17 had it first.
kdoug @ 17
I agree,it smacks them upside the head with their own words.
‘We only patch people through who support the war”.
That left a mark.
I actually think the YouTube over at DKos is the most effective one…
and will probably be the one most appealing to Mainers…
I’d have to go with #2, the VoteVets ad. I like the fact that the vet was speaking directly to the camera/viewer. I thought mentioning the 12 votes as opposed to the “every time” voting in #3 was more effective. But, hey, that’s just me…
I am trying to figure out the message from the first ad. I guess if you are a retarded Republican it may ring true. I am still scratching my head on the connection between Iraq and 9/11. Hmmmm.
And let me get this straight: If we were to leave Iraq – they would follow us here and attack us again? What with all their technologically advance infrastructure, they are going to plan and execute a terrorist attack again?
And with all of our latest and greatest powers our wonderful Dem leaders have surrendered to Bush, he will then fail to protect us against a terrorist attack?
Wow Thinking like a GOP makes my head hurt.
1,576 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Patriots:
The Vote Vet ad is very effective but unfortunately it’s like the minister takin’ over the direction of the choir…no pressure, ads or even direct confrontation with local voters will change a single wingnut vote on the war or anythin’ else and the Democratic Party leadership knows it. We hafta be focusin’ on keepin’ all the DINOs, DLCers, Bluedogs and fascist fellow travelers between the white line. We hafta pressure the leadership to stop hidin’ behind the lack of 60 votes and start exposin’ the fascist cadre in congress. In order ta do that, Reid and Pelosi have gotta break some kneecaps and throw some shoulders outta joint in their own caucus…the Democrats hafta speak with one voice against the continuation of the surge and call for a date certain withdrawal NOW!! Make the fascists filibuster…GOOD GOD!! 65% of American voters want us outta there, if Reid and Pelosi can’t keep their caucus together with that kinda support back home then somethin’ really stinks and it ain’t my socks!!
I’m sick of playin the game of “whose got the best ad” or who is collectin’ the most campaign contributions…we gotta scare the shit outta the Democratic leadership and march on the bastards. Let’s get a million person march on Washington for 9/11 when Petraeus drops the bullshit on the floor of the Congress. The last battle for the soul of this country happens this September…if we don’t win it then November of 2008 will be meaningless.
KEEP THE FAITH AND AIM AT THE RIGHT TARGETS!!!
I just saw number one on TV this morning (outside Philadelphia, they are dumping a ton of money here, so I’m sure it will not be hte last time). I think the use of the towers at the end detracts from the otherwise personal message. It feels heavy handed and cynical, especially as the 9/11 anniversary draws near. Also, the generic nature of the message plays less effectively than targeting the message to a named individual as adds 2 and 3 do. They are threatening other Republicans so they can’t call them out by name.
Jane I don’t doubt the size of W’s ego, but I don’t think this is about him. It’s about PNAC and oil $$$. BTW, even though they won’t put through calls that are against the ad’s message, we might want to tie up their toll-free number trying.
OldCoastie @ 33
This is a good ad,but probably not so good for Maine because Collins is trying to come across as bi-partisan, and she would claim that this represents a part of the Rethug party she is not part of.
Ari’s pro war propaganda appeals to the attack on 9-11, “They attacked us and they will again. They won’t stop in Iraq.”
Another pro war ad yesterday said, if Congress votes against the Iraq war that “It will mean more attacks on America!”
If the Bushies know so much about ‘their” plans, why don’t they stop “them”. Show the proof about what “they” will do.
Otherwise these are neo-conservative terrorist threats against American citizens, to frighten us.
“we might want to tie up their toll-free number trying.”
Lawful acts of dissent only, please. “We don’t want another Oswald” erm, New Hampshire “here.”
I was just about to link the Vote Vets add.
Not hard to answer your question Jane. Who you going to believe an add payed for and pushed by yellow bellied war mongers ,liars and traitors like Ari Fleisher. Or are you going to believe Vets who are not being promoted or bought off by war mongers.
Ask the Vets in your area returning. They will tell you what they think.
Ari Fleisher was part of the Traitor team that outed Valerie Wilson/Plame. Fleisher should be behind bars not out pushing more war.
Sign up for the military Fleisher then your hollow words might hold some oil.
Richmond @ 10
Bingo. Those are my thoughts exactly – though perhaps the Freedom Watch ad seems more Lynchian than Hitchockian to me.
OT,
Hope some of you tuned into Warner at C-span.
My opinion, Warner is a weasel… Bush didn’t even talk to him at the WH and yet he continues to defer to GWB.
I think I am going to be sick. /rant I am so frustrated with the kabuki that I want to scream. I feel as though we are locked into a time warp and at 2002 again.
Also at the Vote Vets website.
Stop a war with Iran petition
http://ga4.org/campaign/stopiranwar
#3 in Maine. #4 in Penn.
lets remember not to use war in our ads its unforgivablr to lose a war,but totally just to end an occupation.lets always call it what it is.
Richmond @ 38
mmm…. I like it because it speaks to a “no bullshit” Maine attitude…
Sort of on topic. This morning I read somewhere (RAW?) that Senator Bernie Sanders had come out against Fox’s drumming for war with Iran (as posted here also by Jane), and basically warned CNN and the other networks not to do the same thing that led up to the Iraq wa. He was working with some media people on this.
This is a critical AND timely issue. Anyone know more about it? And, shouldnt we be pressing other Congress people to join him – Reid, Pelosi, Schumer (yuk), the whole group?
Of course Warner rattled the saber saying there was conclusive evidence that Iran is killing our soldiers. Jeebus… where the f#$k is the conclusive evidence?
Ari Fleisher should be put away for life for the outing of Plame. The Freedom Watch group should be held accountable for the lies in this add it is horrendous. Can’t anyone hold these war freaks accountable? Why are they allowed to present 9/11 connected to Iraq as the truth…this is criminal.
Citizens actions suit against Freedom Watch for promoting complete lies.
I think the fact that the average US income remains, for the past 5 years, lower than it was in 2000, would make a good campaign ad with the tag line – “Are you better off?”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08…..ref=slogin
A Collins and Lieberman ad would be good.
I know the consequences of this action. But I want Lieberman to be stopped from any Democratic Party responsibilities.
kdoug @ 17
Let me echo the other commenters who clicked on this link: this is GREAT!! It’s the perfect rebuttal to the lies in the first ad.
PaminBB @ 37
I do not think that is a good idea and do not encourage people to do it. Sounds like something the GOP would do.
Dee @ 51
Yes, but except for the rich, people don’t vote with their pocketbooks. Remember the last campaigns were all about “morality” and “security.” Plus we are going to be in a financial mess for a long time thanks to these Rethug idiots no matter which party is in power.
It’s like a giant roving pile of dogshit
Rove (verb, transitive); Roved, Roving
to set flame to a paper bag full of political dog excrement placed on the nation’s front porch, then ringing the doorbell and running away
I’m laughing and cringing at the same time. I just hope the vet in the first ad was well paid ’cause that’s the only money he’ll get from this administration.
Most of us vets are accustomed to being used for sundry political and commercial pitches of all stripes. Some times ya feel like a length of bunting thats hung out for special occasions and car sales.
…and so it goes…
jim oconnor @ 22
possible typo: did you mean “a giant dogshit pile of Rove?” ;)
OT – A comment I posted over at Marcy’s place on a subject that is always of interest here at the Lake.
Of a most interesting note in National Intelligence Director Mikey McConnell’s wee FISA
spill-the-beansinterview with the El Paso Times:(My Bold)
Jest so we’re real clear here, you folks using all those cellphones here in the US of A, the government can and does listen to them. No warrant is required!
How can that be you say? Folks, cellphones ain’t nothing more than radio transmissions. You know, just like the kind you can pick up on that there car radio.
And the NSA, which got its beginning in the early 1950s, was the premier collector and eavesdropper of all the radio spectrum worldwide.
Enter today’s NSA with its high-end computing technology, and the combination of almost-lightspeed hardware with highly sophisticated database software, and you got yourself not only a collector of massive amounts of data, but also a one-stop-shop for all other government agencies (Federal, State and Local) for cellphone eavesdropping requests.
Wanna talk on your cellphone about stuff like buying that gram of c*ke, buying that fully automatic silenced Uz*, or jest talking about how to make a steal on that insider stock trading tip you jest got?
You ain’t gonna be the only one listening! And it is totally legal eavesdropping, doncha know?
And you thought the big deal was the government eavesdropping without a warrant on foreign communications. Ha!
Red herring anyone? Tis the favorite menu item in this Administration, and they say it tastes delicious!
SeamusD @ 13
Don’t count on that. I’d have to see a very recent survey to convince me most Americans don’t know it wasn’t Iraqis that attacked us.
Jane Hamsher @ 54
I agree Jane, but let’s not forget that what was done in NH was during voting, and was illegal. This is just well-poor taste perhaps. And, less bad (I think) than the fake abortion information ads in the yellow pages intended to trick people at a time of need. It is a question of scale.
i thought the first ad was very effective – for those who don’t know that iraq had nothihg to do with 911. or those who think “the arabs” attacked us and so don’t differentiate between AQ and the rest of the arab world.
#2 seems a more effective counter because it reminds us that AQ and iraq are not the same.
ymmv. i don’t watch many comercials… so, i’m probably a lousy judge.
I rate them in reverse order.
#3 is best
#2 is next
#1 is shamefully misleading on 9/11.
Israeli soldiers speak out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo
njprogressive @ 53
I would love to get this on KO’s radar. I went to the Bloggermann website, but can’t find a contact link. Anyone have a pipeline to the Countdown folks?
“Sort of on topic. This morning I read somewhere (RAW?) that Senator Bernie Sanders had come out against Fox’s drumming for war with Iran (as posted here also by Jane), and basically warned CNN and the other networks not to do the same thing that led up to the Iraq wa. He was working with some media people on this.
This is a critical AND timely issue. Anyone know more about it? And, shouldnt we be pressing other Congress people to join him – Reid, Pelosi, Schumer (yuk), the whole group?”
Not so OT under the circumstances. When the use of these ads, like the one by that traitor punk Ari, are discussed on the MSM the response should include a reminder to the Tweety’s and Timmeh’s that the MSM shouldn’t get conned AGAIN by these ass holes.
BTW it may have been discussed earlier but I thought Amy Goodman did a great job last night on MSNBC. A strong progressive voice. Would like to see her on more often arguing the for progressive case.
So I tried to view these from the perspective of not knowing what to believe about Iraq and just listened to the emotive impact, which will be the key to victory after all. Of the three here I actually think the first one, unfortunately, is a much better ad. The ad others have pointed to from Americans United for Change – Freedom comes close in emotional impact but it is a little too cerebral still. The fact that the other two anti-war ads are anti-candidate adds really takes away from their impact as anti-war ads.
Also, the fact that Collins’ last two votes were actually supportive of getting us out of Iraq (S Amdt 2087 – Yes and S Amdt 2012 – Yes) really weakens the ads. The fact that she only voted yes because the Dems were going to loose anyways will be lost.
I just finished a couple of page analysis of today’s NIE. I’ll probably drop it in the comments in a couple of parts this evening. Just thought I would warn you all.
yellowdogD @ 60
I’m sure I’ve seen poll results very recently (maybe not a recent poll, not sure) that show just that: a majority of Americans DO believe that 9/11 and Iraq are connected. But I have no idea where I saw it.
How I rate the Iraq War ads for effectiveness:
1. Biden’s Iowa ad, posted here this morning
2. Ad #1 above – will resonate with 30%, piss off 70%
3. Ad #2 above – not passionate, but the 12 votes part is good
4. Ad # 3 above – bad choice of music
The Democrats should make the next election all about Iraq and wrap it around the prez. I think the country is ready for some straight shooting talk from my party.
Hugh @ 68
excellent! will be looking for it. thank you.
Yes. Biden’s ad was very good. And he needs to continue with his “retail politics” theme.
My party needs to show some emotion. Based upon sound reasoning.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 71
It ain’t goina happen with the DLC (Emmanuel, Schumer, Lieberman) & blue dog dems – and esp with Hillary running. You may not have noticed by neocon ALan Derschowitz is a big supporter of Hillary. No way would he support her if were seriously going to leave Iraq. We just need to keep up the pressure on the ground level and make them HAVE to change on this because there will be so much opposition.
Fern @ 18
That may be exactly what the Republicans are hoping for. In 2008, turnout will not be their friend.
Enjoy that beer, but there’s work to be done after you finish it.
How about George ‘Custer’ Bush riding past surrounded by Iranians.
Or the predicted bright 200 kiloton flash over Tel Aviv for a reality check.
So we understand some more about the audience there is a recent poll from CNN about American attitudes about the war and among other things, it’s relationship to terrorism. It strikes me that most of the country is really very confused and unsure. They don’t think the war is being run well but they are not sure the war itself is wrong.
The Freedom Watch add plays very well into that uncertainty. I’m not sure any of the others do that well.
Jane, LOL really OL! great post
PTrig @ 42
This is how it struct me too.
I should note, no speakers over here, so I can’t allow as for how it sounds. But I won’t listen to them anyway so it doesn’t matter ;-)
If the “permanent Republican majority” has been sacrificed to George Bush’s enormous ego, then Bush will have achieved a single positive effect. If it turns out to be a “permanent Republican minority”, he will have achieved his single positive accomplishment.
selise @ 72
do you have a link for the NIE report? How many times was it sent back for a rewrite?
Fleischer,Murdoch,Bloomberg and the Oil Lobby
Sad to see President Bush relying on Ari “Genocide” Fleischer and
his secretly financed Freedom Watch ( it’s just Murdoch,Bloomberg,Netanyahu,the neocon Hedge Funds ,the Private Contractors and Oil Lobby’s and their goons ) ,a neocon like
Fleischer that tried to take control of the White House in 2001 totally and had to be “reset” by Sr. and others, and then pushing to attack Iraq using the same line as Libby the day after 9/11 : Iraq will pay for this , because it was a fix already ! ,what a
shame !
Ari Fleischer never went to war,he just wants Americans to go die in Iran ,the next stop of the FREAK TRAIN , after all,they just want
the oil pipeline to go from Iraq to
Haiffa,that’s all !
we are going to see a
Bloomberg/Feingold/Schumer/Emanuel push on any
ticket, Rep. or Dem. with the temptation of 300 million, later the fool ( Hillary or Rudy) gets a “terrible accident” and the neocons
get the Oval Office, its a done deal !
in the meantime Tobacco gets a free ride, junk food is king and Hedge Funds don’t pay taxes and many Homeland Security contracts
go “no-bid” to friends ! Washington Post, Aug,22,07: ” Federal No-Bid Contracts on Rise ” ,were even narcotic-office work go to no-bid contracts, what a shame !
and notice how the 190.000 AK-47’s and Glock’s LOST IN IRAQ are just a blip, no scandal,after all,it was on General Petreus watch, so
nothing to worry about ! if it was you ,me or any other taxpayer,jail would be a done deal,but hey ! the Office which
controls this stuff is the Edelman -Whitman in the Pentagon and Kaplan in State with Bolten-Kellner-Wurmser in White-House’s
domain,so no scandal ! isn’t great to be a neocon ? incompetent and
criminal neocon ? ….very sad to see the President of the United
States siding with these characters.
Fleischer with Wolfowitz,Perle,Zakheim the Pentagon Comptroller,Wurmser,Feith,Libby,Edelman,Abrams,Rosen,etc.,and the Silverstein-Goldman-Murdoch-Netanyahu WTC team must get the RULE OF
LAW ,America must make sure !…and the same applies to the Saudis who helped all the above on the 9/11 “deal”, they must pay for the
crime and the intent against America !, its clear that America must get out of the “Oil only ” policy,with Hydrogen Fuelcells,with Solar,Wind and Water turbines(like in the East River started by Pataki) ,Ethanol from sugarcane,corn,rapeseeds,etc., Geothermal ,small Fusion reactors, water desalination,coal to liquid diesel capturing carbon dioxide, as well as re-seal the LAW OF THE SEA CONVENTION and make the USA,Russia,Canada,Norway,Denmark and Island work together to get the 150 billion barrels of oil/gas from under the Arctic Circle without a spill to finance the above Energy Choices and Independence.
all these neocons are creating INTERNAL PROBLEMS, America must decide how to deal with them ,right away !
Oklahoma kiddo @ 74
Yes Yes Yes. (And we need to do this apart of candidates. Make it about values, note races.)
I meant, not races, above.
OT – sorry – RENZI SAYS HE WILL NOT SEEK RE-ELECTION
Rep. Rick Renzi (R-Ariz.) said in a statement obtained by Roll Call
that he will not seek re-election in 2008, ending months of
speculation regarding the ethically clouded Congressman’s political
future.
kathleen @ 50
Good luck with that lawsuit. Small matter of the First Amendment, which protects lying and bullshit to the same extent it protects truth.
Better idea: help make it possible for our guys’ truthful ads to run twice as often as the other guys’ lies and bullshi.
selise @62:
After that long exchange on the other thread about partitioning Iraq (provoked by Biden’s mug) I read the link you provided to the Siun post. It was very good and I recommend it to Biodun, Brisingamen, Richmond and others, but I have a criticism of it: this Visser guy, obviously an authority, is very conscientiously but ingenuously arguing the merits for not partitioning Iraq without examining the motives of those who want to. He even at one point engages in that common flinching reaction of dismissing people who divine a divide-and-conquer method in our occupation of Iraq: “And it would be the ultimate gift to al-Qaida – who would finally get the manifest evidence they have been craving in order to back up their conspiracy theory of the US as a pro-Zionist force bent on subdividing the Middle East into weak and sectarian statelets”. Heavens, no: no great power has ever tried to shatter rivals into weak and sectarian statelets…
I was struck by the last line of the “Freedom Watch” video, “It’s no time to quit and it is no time for politics.” Does that mean Maliki too? No time to make a political settlement? Does that mean Condoleeza Rice and the State Dept. should not try to seek a political solution in Iraq? Does that mean George Bush has no intention whatsoever of finding a political solution to the situation in Iraq or even Israel/Palestine for that matter?
I get the message from this propoganda that the only plan the president has through the end of his administration is war and more war. And Ari Fleischer calling this Freedom Watch, what about freedom for the Iraqi people to decide their own future, freedom to choose who their leaders will be, instead of the failed puppet state they are now. I saw Fleischer on Hardball yesterday, and he looke like he was trying to sell poison candy to children and he knew it. Never saw a guiltyer look on someone’s face.
kathleen @ 64
These two young Israeli soldiers are amazing. Willing to speak the truth. Worth the listen.
How many times do we have to hear that this is the key issue for the anger towards the U.S. in the middle east. How long will we continue to ignore this issue?
Breaking the Silence
http://www.peaceworkmagazine.o…..041008.htm
Jane Hamsher @ 54
A couple of GOP operatives went to jail for doing just that in New Hampshire on Election Night 2002. Definitely not a good idea.
I think the first ad could be well-used, but not in the way they’d hope.
I’d like to see the soldier giving the “they attacked us” line, followed by facts that contradict that statement.
Then how ’bout rolling list of the Republican Congress Critters (or maybe numbers, since there would be too many names) and the bills they voted AGAINST that would have helped the troops and/or the veterans administration?
The end-line could be something like “Who REALLY supports the troops?”
Richmond at 75
Hillary does not care what’s said here and at like-minded sites.
She knows she got 90% of FDL readers’ votes, because FDL readers will have no other choice.
I think for progressives, HRC will be a fairly awful president.
“She’s better than Bush.” won’t work.
With the war, the economy, and corruption etc., the view is it is the Democrats election to lose. We in this house have decided if the Democrats don’t take back the White House in 2008, we are going to end our (voting) lifetime association with the Democratic Party. The Democratic ‘leadership’ really needs to look at the big picture.
comment #83 ….very sad to see the President of the United
States siding with these characters
siding with…he is part of it in the thick of it.
Jane: YGM
kathleen @ 82
I found this one the most accessible:
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-co…..07-nie.pdf
I think the VoteVets article does the best job of presenting a narrative of true and demonstrable facts about the Iraq war and its relationship to effective efforts against international terroism.
I don’t know about any weaknesses regarding the VoteVets ad against a specific politician, such as Collins. The comments above that say it is weak against Collins might be true, I don’t know enough about the details of her votes.
The Freedom Watch thing is slicker and presses emotional buttons in a very polished and professional way. Its weakness is that it also relies heavily on implicit appeals to the old and tired historical lies and distortions used by Cheney and dub to sell the Iraq war. I think there will no clear consistent winner between the two campaigns if the efforts are based mainly on emotional button pushing. So an effective counter to factual and historical BS in the Freedom Watch campaign is important and I think the approach of VoteVets is more effective.
But we don’t have to choose, right? I think you put both VoteVets and Americans United up agains Freedom Watch, with good public education campaign by Dems and other war opponents and the Freedom Watch con job loses.
I think that the combination of using wounded vets, appealing to untruths and distortions about demonstrable facts, and explicitly using the emotional threat of a wounded vet thinking his sacrifice would be wasted is problematic. Personally, I think it is disgusting, because of the lies implicitly asserted as truth in the ad. This poor soldier is being used. I think it might backfire if most of the viewrs know two things:
1) There was no link between Iraq and 9/11,
2) Any current danger Iraq poses in terms of international terrorism has been created precisely because of Cheney and dub’s immoral, stupid and incomptently handled Iraq invasion and occupation.
We need to do all we can to make sure that well justifed backfire happens.
We in this home are so tired of watching deadpan Hillary and Obama. We feel as if we want to wind them up or put new batteries in these two.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 71
And all the rubber stamp republicans in congress equally complicit. Only Hillary Clinton is really doing this in her campaign and actively engaging spats with the White House on policy and plan to get soldiers out of Iraq safely.
brendan @ 88
i agree. but that would be a whole other post.
Has anyone traced The Freedom Watch money? Who or what put up (laundered) the 15mil?
A dear friend Art Gish has been reporting his experiences in Israel and Palestine for years. He has been to Israel 14 times and has witnessed what these young Israeli soldiers are now willing to come out and admit.
http://mideastchristians.virtu…..apples.htm
These young men from Israel and Art Gish are on the same team..they want Peace in the I/P conflict. These two young men discuss the unbridled support of Israels actions by the U.s. I have heard these stories directly from Art and other people who have lived in Palestinian refugee camps and spent time there for the last 30 years.
Really worth the watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo
“Only Hillary Clinton is really doing this in her campaign and actively engaging spats with the White House on policy and plan to get soldiers out of Iraq safely.”
I haven’t heard that before. ;0)
I do not believe that HRC will work toward peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And on this I do not trust Obama either.
Steve-AR @ 102
I read yesterday about some Billionaire that owns the Las Vegas Sands?????? Sorry, no link.
I don’t want to insult the soldier in the Freedom Watch ad. He probably sincerely believes in the message of the ad. Maybe he wrote or actively participated in writing the ad. And I am not good at this ad messaging political psychology stuff. But, my reactionto the soldier in the Freedom Watch ad was: passive, object, sentimental patriotic symbol. The reaction I had to the VoteVets, was more along the lines of: active, agent, decision maker. I don’t know if others have the same reaction. I add that I think my reaction is due to decisions the respective producers made in making the ads, not about the individuals appearing in them.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 104
while I agree, neither of us want hilary to be our candidate, I believe she will work towards piece, I believe bill wanted it done and I think she will have alot to bring to the table to negotiate something in the end
I at least believe the process will begin if she is elected
selise @ 101
Speaking of partition, and the NIE:
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/
Well, lookee here: a Supreme Court with some gumption and principles.
Shame it’s not ours.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08…..an.html?hp
check this out from think progress…more republicans abandoning the sinking ship
of course he’s wrong when he says “it’s not up to congress to mandate it”
of course it’s up to congress to mandate it, this president has demonstrated he is entirely inept, a military moron and allowing him to continue making decisions at our nation’s peril is madness
congress must put a leach on the damage that will be done if they not put a leach
kdoug @ 17
I like this ad a lot.
ad#1-It’s a great ad to rally the base. It’s not going to sway any one else. It’s very strong in that respect. It’s dark and forboding like the fear that they are peddling.
ad#2-When the ad was over I really didn’t take anything away from it. It left little or no impression on me, and that’s not a good thing.
ad#3-At the end of it I felt like Susan Collins has to go. The use of the 2 photos of her with Bush, ties her to Bush, and her smilling in each is a strong juxtaposition to the tragic facts that presented in the beginning and the message being spoken. It hits hard on both those senses, which triggers a strong emotional reaction.
I think all the commercials will have appeal to certain audiences. Ads #2 and #3 will have a broader appeal then ad 1. Out of the three in my opinion, #2 is the weakest for me.
perris @ 108
Perhaps you are right. ;0)
perris @111:
He’s begging Bush to patch the sinking ship, not abandoning it. Forty years in Congress and he hasn’t even achieved the stature of a rat.
Kathleen at 103
Thanks for the links. The second one is so good, so infuriating. (Haven’t watched the first one.)
brendan @ 113
that’s a good point…I agree, your take is better then mine
Shorter Chimp:
It’s only a massacree and genocide if the people killing tens of thousands aren’t American.
-GSD
Steve-AR @ 100
From my comment yesterday (quoting Politico):
Freedom’s Watch aims to do for the GOP what the MoveOn political action organizations have done for Democrats. Blakeman, who was a member the White House senior staff in Bush’s first term, said Freedom’s Watch is designed as “a never-ending campaign – a stable, credible voice of reason on generational issues that won’t rise and fall with election cycles.”
The board consists of Blakeman; Fleischer; Mel Sembler, a Florida Republican who was Bush’s ambassador to Italy; William P. Weidner, president and chief operating officer of the Las Vegas Sands Corp.; and Matt Brooks, executive director of the Republican Jewish Coalition.
The donors include Sembler; Anthony Gioia, a Buffalo businessman who was Bush’s ambassador to Malta; Kevin Moley, who was Bush’s ambassador to the U.S. Mission to the United Nations in Geneva; Howard Leach, a former Republican National Committee finance chairman who was Bush’s ambassador to France; Dr. John Templeton of Pennsylvania, chairman and president of the John Templeton Foundation; Ed Snider, chairman of Comcast-Spectacor, the huge Philadelphia sports and entertainment firm; Sheldon Adelson, chairman of the Las Vegas Sands Corp. and ranked by Forbes magazine as the third wealthiest American; and Richard Fox, who is chairman of the Jewish Policy Center and was Pennsylvania State Chairman of the Reagan/Bush campaign in 1980.
Not trying to take away from the dudes service but it is interesting that he got his Purple Heart from the Pres.
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. — Florida’s top police agency said Wednesday its investigation into former U.S. Rep. Mark Foley’s lurid Internet communications with teenage boys has been hindered because neither Foley nor the House will let investigators examine his congressional computers.
All of the tourists are still here in Maine through Labor Day weekend; and they’ll get to view ‘em, too.
Thereafter, there’s a break before the leaf-peepers arrive.
Love it (esp. when the weather’s inclement, and outdoor activities are curtailed)–more TVs are turned on.
Buh-bye, Suzie-Q!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 120
kinda like congress critters have super duper 4th amendment rights… makes me wish I had some too!
The Bush administration argued in court papers this week that the White House Office of Administration is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act as part of its effort to fend off a civil lawsuit seeking the release of internal documents about a large number of e-mails missing from White House servers.
1,576 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen perris and the Firepup Patriots:
“I at least believe the process will begin if she is elected.”
What makes you think that…the process has already started and it’s gunna end in September, one way or the other. If Mrs. Clinton wins the nomination and the war is still goin on we are truly and righteously fucked and Bill didn’t even unzip his pants.
If Mrs. Clinton wins the nomination and we are still in the field in Iraq, then it’s the end of the Democratic Party and the corporate oligarchs will have our grabdchildren for lunch!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 121
Kiddo may be visiting TPM today. IIRC, the White House Office of Administration is the office that, for six years, responded to FOIA requests…(?)
I just called the number and got the same question…”Do you believe surrender in Iraq…”
I correctetd the woman and said since we were not at war but involved with an illegal occupation how could we “surrender.” She put me off…I asked her to patch me through to my congresscritter and she hung up on me. So much for “Freedom Watch.”
their switchboard:
1-877-222-8001
[Mod: edited by mod]
About Ari’s ad — it’s about emotions — the limbic part of the brain.
Check it out
They used the same type of ads in 2004 and they were chock full of subliminal messages for you to be afraid of the “bad, bad brown people.”
They’re going to the well again because they know this works especially for the 20 percenters who would follow Dubya off a cliff
#1 is extremely disturbing. What real value does a position have if you have to have a disabled vet asking people to give meaning to his sacrifice by continuing to sacrifice more soldiers and Iraqis. It really says nothing more than that. Oh and be scared and don’t think. This is really sick.
#2 is too dry. I have forgotten it already. It comes off as more political than antiwar.
#3 is overall the best. Meaningful and persuasive. And straightforward.
There’s something missing in all of them and I can’t put my finger on it. Maybe it’s all just more talk. No plans in sight. No deployment happening here yet.
Warner is Kabuki: probably directed by the wh to be followed by wh deployment of 5,000 troops for a happy Christmas. Meaningless. Propaganda. Horrifying.
Freedom Watch is the winner out of these three because it looks the least “produced” and the most authentic. It has a deeply emotional appeal. If I hadn’t followed this issue, I’d be influenced by it.
OT: Official: Recalled Toys Not Poor Quality Hmmm, so lead paint in kids toys is not a quality issue?
We know for a fact that there are weapons there.
Ari Fleischer January 9, 2003
Well, there is no question that we have evidence and information that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical particularly . . . all this will be made clear in the course of the operation, for whatever duration it takes.
Ari Fleisher March 21, 2003
I think you have always heard, and you continue to hear from officials, a measure of high confidence that, indeed, the weapons of mass destruction will be found.
Ari Fleischer April 10, 2003
Who should we believe? Someone who promoted the war lied about WMD’s or….
Oklahoma kiddo @ 120
executive privilege!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 120
Guess that makes the Florida police ex-port-Foley-O.
fdlreader_128 I like you’re summary of ad #1, I was thinking that but could not express it the way you did.
realworld @ 130
Maybe it’s high quality lead paint?
New thread…
MayDaze @ 118
neutral interest
Anything that Ari Fleischer touches is like pure manna.
The man is like Mother Teresa and Baywatch Star Pamela Anderson combined: physicality and spirituality within rigid doctrinal confines.
Sort of like an outhouse at Woodstock.
Who can vote against Woodstock?
I hate to say it but I thought the Fleischer AD was pretty good. The last one, Americans for Change needs to beef up a little and then I think it can take Fleischer’s on.
fdl reader @ 128
here’s what’s missing;
attacking the war for what it is, a maniacal plan by a sick fraternity that like to call themselves “the pnac”
the war needs to be attacked for what it is, a deliberate looting, a deliberate pillage of an entire country, a deliberate abuse of the armed forces of the united states of america
I don’t know how to put that into the context of any of those second two adds but it must be put in to allieviate the feeling that “something is missing”
we know what’s missing don’t we
To answer your question #1
The rubes will fall for it hook, line and sinker.
How about an add where American soldiers repeat what Bush administration officials said before the war.
# 1 just pisses me off anew over the sloganeering twits that got our troops into this mess. How many of the deaths and injuries to American troops are a result of underarmored transport and lack of proper body armor? After five years, it’s mind boggling the Republican base hasn’t made this connection.
Like one of those post-apocalyptic movies where the tank tracks roll over piles of skeletons and skulls, the BushCo tank cares nothing for the sacrifices of the guys on the line. Their bones make a good roadbed. It’s BushCo letting politics drive things , not the other way around. It’s the same fatal mistake we made in Vietnam; trying to interject some dialog about the commie conspiracy to bring down freedom and projecting it on a helpless civilian populace in the Asian case, repeating the whole cloth mumblebumble and painting over the “commie” nomenclature with “terraists” in the Iraq case.
In both cases, the war machine rolls on until we cut off it’s fuel supply.
Now , due to bumbling management of a misbegotten looks-good-on-paper invasion we are faced with the same scenarios as what we created in Cambodia and Vietnam, writ large over the Mideast landscape. People are going to die, the innocent ones who can’t afford to leave, and this is direct result from our actions in the first place. So does it help the religious civil war to stay there and try to control one side of the strife over the other? The only question left is who wants to be the last American to die for this lost cause?
Millineryman @ 134
Thanks. It was hard to write actually and I’ve figured out why. It’s very hard to attack the ad without risking disrespecting the vet. THAT’s why they chose a vet that is so disabled, I think now. The ad is booby-trapped!! Sick. Sick. Sick. And so sad, I am so sad right now for all the vets. I hope this ad has that effect on some people because this too is raw emotion.
perris @ 140
Yes. You got me thinking. I also think that the Iraqis are missing from all these ads. It’s all about America. For shame. We aren’t suffering at all by comparison. #1 could make a case that it’s good for Iraq ~ more lies but it would be consistent with their message. No, they don’t of course: it’s all about America’s pride and serving America’s need for security. And of course the other view is we should end this to end (some of) the suffering in Iraq ~ that could be part of #2 and #3.
I’m not going to go back and watch the ads but I don’t recall there being anything from an Iraqi perspective in these ads.
What I want to see is an antiwar ad that talks about the suffering of innocent Iraqis. Occupied. Infiltrated by Saudi, etc. extremists. No water. No electricity. Children suffering with no end in sight.
But I guess Iraqis don’t count: more brown people. Not Christians.
Shame on America.
Unfortunately, I think the Freedom Watch ad drives the message best. It’s been shown that decision making involves the emotional process and Ari Fleischer’s ad does better at inciting an emotional response. I’m immune to the rhetoric used in the message, but I can see how it could influence someone that is not as opposed to the current administration as I am. It’s a very aggressive message and a good strategy given the abysmal approval ratings.
Actually, it is discouraging to think that, at this point, there is still any considerable number of voters who are so unsure or their opinions regarding the war and Bush Administration, that any of the ads would have any affect. I know it’s true, but id doesn’t help my belief in democracy.
I do think that Olberman and Stewart could essentially disarm the first add by replaying and commenting on Fleischer’s appearance on Hardball. Aside from other outrages, Fleischer’s obviously disingenuous argument, that since those in combat represent us all, we all sacrifice equally, should cause any servicemen or family members to upchuck.
It has been a while, Jane.
You rock, roll, kick ass, and take names.
Sadly, too many of “us,” loosely defined as the American Voter, are totally clueless.
Which is why I’m trying to spread the good-blogger word.
Word.
Effectiveness? Ad #1, hands-down.
Truthfullness? None of the above.
In the first one I think the guy should say:
Look, now that experts like James Meigs have put questions about 9/11 to rest Americans need to redouble their efforts to support the president in his war of terror.
kathleen @ 142
Or during the war, e.g. Cheney’s “…last throes” comes to mind. Just repeating Cheney’s comment over and over again with different soldiers.
Just watched all three. *sigh* Here I am in battleground PA, a bright blue dot surrounded (in this county, at least) by red, and I have to tell you: the evil (a) selection is gonna play here.
Not for nuthin’ do they call this Pennsyltucky.
I thought # 1 was very effective until I got to the Twin Towers (hurts me to write the words, that’s what my little kids always called them) scene. I think that is beginning to wear on a lot of people, and a majority of the American people recognize that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11 and that the insurgents in Iraq don’t have anything to do with Al Qaeda.
Close you eyes and listen to these ads because a lot of the viewers tune out during breaks. We have heard the music in all 3 ads and it’s so predictable, as is the narrator’s voice (#3) and Bush and his “Mission Accomplished”. No surprises.
Now listen to Biden’s ad and tell me it doesn’t pull him right into your space like he was sitting in you living room talking about his kid. BRILLIANT!
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 138
cute little bird, eh?
IrishJim @ 106
That would be Sheldon Adelson…LIKUDIST and close friends with Benji Netanyahu.
“Sheldon Adelson has spent the past two decades collecting a string of casinos, but now the billionaire — considered by many to be the richest Jew in the world — is taking another kind of gamble.
Two weeks ago, Adelson, CEO of the Las Vegas Sands Corp., launched Yisrael Hayom, or Israel Today, a free daily newspaper that on its first day was already one of the largest-circulation papers in the country. Adelson’s new paper is drawing questions from other journalists, who worry about the mogul’s connections to Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, and also from the owners of other Israeli newspapers, who are a famously tight-knit club…
Adelson is the latest foreign mogul to insert himself into the Israeli media scene. Canadian press magnate Conrad Black owned The Jerusalem Post for many years, and when he ended up in legal trouble it was another Canadian, Leonard Asper, who tried to buy him out. American media mogul Haim Saban has amassed a number of Israeli television holdings. Adelson’s first job, when he was a youngster in Boston, is said to have been selling newspapers on a street corner. But unlike past foreign investors in Israel, Adelson has no previous involvement in the media world…
…“They want to buy a share of Israel with their money,” Ben Simon said. “Israelis don’t want the country to be made into a casino for rich people.”
Adelson, who made most of his money developing the Las Vegas Sands company, is reputed to be worth more than $26.5 billion. Since the initial public offering of the Sands in 2004, Adelson and his wife, a doctor of Israeli origin, have ramped up their philanthropic involvement, particularly in the Jewish world. They have endowed a right-leaning think tank and a hospital ward in Israel. And last year they announced the formation of a family foundation that, it was rumored, would give away $200 million a year to Jewish causes.
Those numbers have not been borne out yet, but Adelson has been making a splash. He was in Israel this week, apparently tending to a number of his different projects. It was the week of the LIKUD primaries, in which his friend, Netanyahu, was the front runner. He also held a meeting at the president’s house, in which he announced a new $30 million gift to Birthright Israel, a program that has received much of his philanthropic largesse thus far.
In all this work, Adelson has not kept his ideological leanings secret. He came to Israel this week with a delegation of Republican congressmen from the United States. And an organizer for Birthright told Ha’aretz that Adelson shares his views with program participants and that he recently passed out copies of a documentary on how Islam is spreading in the West…
“Adelson is coming with an agenda,” said one leading Israeli journalist who did not want to be identified, as he is from a competing media company. “He comes with a right-wing political agenda with the interest of making [someone] a prime minister — and that’s Bibi.”
“Adelson and Bibi don’t deny a close relationship,” he said. “But the question is whether this publication is headed for activism. If so, the Israeli experience in recent years has been vicious to papers like this, as people have become less ideological and more centrist.”
http://www.forward.com/articles/11408/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_Adelson
IrishJim @ 106
Sheldon Adelson
The “Forward” exposes a whole lot about this hard-core American L*kudist and funder of Bibi Netanyahu’s political campaigns. Apparently even the Israeli public considers him an outside meddler who blocks any political progress with the Palestinians.
http://www.forward.com/articles/11408/
Sheldon Adelson has spent the past two decades collecting a string of casinos, but now the billionaire — considered by many to be the richest Jew in the world — is taking another kind of gamble.
Two weeks ago, Adelson, CEO of the Las Vegas Sands Corp., launched Yisrael Hayom, or Israel Today, a free daily newspaper that on its first day was already one of the largest-circulation papers in the country. Adelson’s new paper is drawing questions from other journalists, who worry about the mogul’s connections to L*kud leader Benjamin Netanyahu, and also from the owners of other Israeli newspapers, who are a famously tight-knit club…
“They want to buy a share of Israel with their money,” Ben Simon said. “Israelis don’t want the country to be made into a casino for rich people.”
Adelson, who made most of his money developing the Las Vegas Sands company, is reputed to be worth more than $26.5 billion. Since the initial public offering of the Sands in 2004, Adelson and his wife, a doctor of Israeli origin, have ramped up their philanthropic involvement, particularly in the Jewish world. They have endowed a right-leaning think tank and a hospital ward in Israel. And last year they announced the formation of a family foundation that, it was rumored, would give away $200 million a year to Jewish causes.
… He was in Israel this week, apparently tending to a number of his different projects. It was the week of the L*kud primaries, in which his friend, Netanyahu, was the front runner. He also held a meeting at the president’s house, in which he announced a new $30 million gift to Birthright Israel, a program that has received much of his philanthropic largesse thus far.
In all this work, Adelson has not kept his ideological leanings secret. He came to Israel this week with a delegation of Republican congressmen from the United States. And an organizer for Birthright told Ha’aretz that Adelson shares his views with program participants and that he recently passed out copies of a documentary on how Islam is spreading in the West…
“Adelson is coming with an agenda,” said one leading Israeli journalist who did not want to be identified, as he is from a competing media company. “He comes with a right-wing political agenda with the interest of making [someone] a prime minister — and that’s Bibi.”
“Adelson and Bibi don’t deny a close relationship,” he said. “But the question is whether this publication is headed for activism. If so, the Israeli experience in recent years has been vicious to papers like this, as people have become less ideological and more centrist.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_Adelson
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
I liked #2 the best. It seemed more direct and believable. #3 is fine, but it uses The Scary Voice, which I’m sort of tired of.
#1 is just dumb. It will probably shore up the 29 percent of the base that is already supporting Bush. But I don’t think it will change any minds.
Naturally, I’m biased as hell.
Americans United for Change is the best of the ads
“I guess the “permanent Republican majority” got sacrificed to George Bush’s enormous ego pretty quickly”.
Bush has sacrificed the Republican Party, the American image in the world, the American Army, the integrity of our electorl system,the separation of church and state, the constitutional system of checks and balances, the integrity of the Department of Justice, FEMA, and the CIA, among others. Added to New Orleans and the Twin Towers, and that is quite a bit of destruction for one man.