I was surprised that President Bush raised our history in Vietnam as a lesson applicable to America’s occupation of Iraq. For the next couple of days the print and television media will pick apart the President’s misrepresentations of history, and that should help reinforce the notion that this President cannot be trusted to tell the truth. I find it hard to believe the White House did not realize this would occur or that it would detract from the President’s intended message.
David Gergen put his finger on the greater blunder of drawing the Vietnam parallel: “If you learned so much from history, Mr. President, how did you get us involved in another quagmire?” Vietnam reminds Americans of the quagmire, a lost war and 58,000 dead Americans.
But I think I understand why they did this. By declaring it was a mistake for the US to withdraw combat forces from South Vietnam instead of leaving them to defeat the communists — the neocon’s favorite delusion — Bush is essentially arguing that it was a mistake for Henry Kissinger to negotiate a peace treaty with the North Vietnamese, and a mistake for Nixon to remove US combat forces from the South, with a “decent interval” between their removal following the agreement and the predicted North Vietnamese takeover of the South.
Whatever one thinks of the stunning cynicism and immorality of the Nixon/Kissinger strategy, the American people at least understood and I suspect strongly approved of an agreement that allowed America to extract itself from a terrible and bloody quagmire that had killed over 58,000 US troops and millions of Vietnamese. I’m not sure Americans cared what happened next; they just wanted out, and the agreement got them out, slowly, late, after too many deaths, but eventually out. Looking back, I doubt there are many Americans who think we should have followed the advice Bush is now offering; do they really believe we should have heeded the warnings of dire consequences of withdrawal from a country that had no real strategic interests for the US and is now a friendly trading partner?
I also think most Americans believe the Vietnam war was a huge mistake, one not worth the terrible costs in lives and treasure, just as they’ve come to believe the same thing about Iraq. But Bush is arguing that America should have continued to waste lives and treasure in Vietnam indefinitely, and he’s making that argument about Vietnam because he wants to make the same argument about Iraq. I think the White House has badly miscalculated on this; the America people have largely made up their minds.
So let the President make the argument — with a little framing help from Democrats — that we should remain bogged down in the Iraq quagmire, indefinitely, with no plan for leaving, ever. Let the voters think about that prospect in the context of the fact that whatever General Petraeus has accomplished in fighting whoever he now claims is the “enemy,” there hasn’t been the slightest progress towards political accommodation at the national level, so America will continue to break its army and lose 100 or so US soldiers every month forever, with no expectation the political situation will ever improve. And remind them our troops are no longer fighting for democracy, just as we gave up on democracy for the Vietnamese. The President cannot “win the war” with this approach, and he certainly can’t win over the American voters. It is a losing strategy in every way.
In dragging out the neocon’s favorite myth that a premature withdrawal from Vietnam is the source of our foreign policy failures, the President is revealing his and the neocon’s dirtiest secret: that they are nothing more than a bunch of delusional warmongers who keep invading non-threatening countries and are willing to kill other people’s children by the thousands merely to prove that they really are manly men, even though they all had “other priorities” that kept them from fighting when it was their turn.
While Congressional Republicans contemplate taking that platform into the 2008 elections, it would be helpful if the Democratic leadership would restrain themselves and not detract from the President’s self-destructive message. I don’t see how it’s helpful for Senator Clinton, or her stalking horse, Carl Levin, to reinforce the absurd notion that conditions in Iraq would significantly improve in ways that would facilitate a US withdrawal from the Iraq quagmire if only Nouri al-Maliki were replaced. The Democrats should instead argue that Bush wants to leave US troops fighting in a quagmire forever, and it doesn’t matter who the Iraqis pick as the Prime Minister because the central government is, by design, constitutionally too weak to function effectively in a country that is radically split between sectarian and other groups and their respective militias.
Putting pressure on al Maliki to be replaced won’t make the problem of withdrawing US forces any easier for the next President to solve. The central government hunkered down in the Green Zone is increasingly irrelevant, with provinces and major cities becoming their own regional bastions for tribal warlords and contending militias. A new prime minister is not likely to change this, so Democrats should stop asking for something that helps neither Iraq nor the next US President but which would give the Democrats ownership of a strategy that doesn’t help.
There is a final, compelling reason for Democrats to stop focusing on al Maliki. The reason the US occupation of Iraq is proving impossible to end is not because al Maliki is a weak or ineffective Prime Minister but because George Bush and Dick Cheney have created a disastrous, warmongering Administration that has a stranglehold on the entire military and national security structure and cowed enough Democrats into allowing Bush/Cheney to do as they please. If the Democrats want to rid America of dangerous and incompetent executives whose decisions are keeping us bogged down in the Iraq quagmire while endangering US security and the safety of US forces, they should focus on cleaning out the White House, because that’s the source of all the problems we’re having.
Update: Another perspective worth reading from JayAckroyd at TPM.
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zip?
Scarecrow!
Anyone see this?
The Caesars led their armies…the BushCo’s cower in their bunkers.
Caw, caw! Good morning, Scarecrow.
Yeah, Levin really needs to just STFU.
so why are some of the dems blaming al Maliki instead of bush and the neocons? that just seems nuts.
This is the Cheney crowd trying to rewrite or should I say re-right the Nixon legacy. Hopefully they f**k things up so badly that no little twit in their entourage will try to do it again to this county in 20 or 30 years, like Cheney and his crowd have attempted with this presidency.
Hi Scarecrow, most definitely agree with what you said:
I think that speech revealed the pure madness of the BushCo crowd.
E.S.C.A.L.A.T.I.O.N.
dan_ps @ 3
If the military can detect which people will get PTSD and send them into battle anyway they should be just as liable for their treatment.
egregious @ 5
Good morning egregious and everyone.
In short they are saying that 58,169 American military dead (and over 1 million Vietnamese) was not enough “sacrifice,” and that we should aim high again in Iraq.
Note too that our main adversary in Vietnam was Communist China, to whom we owe vast amounts of money to pay for the costs of this current war. They own us now. And thanks to Walmart’s massive China buy lows, the American workers’ incomes have gone down the tube. Oh yes, and China have been poisoning our kids with lead paint products with no federal oversight. And, by the way, China now is pretty much everywhere in Africa and Latin America, oil wise and otherwise.
You see, if we had stayed in Vietnam, we wouldn’t have had to take out loans from China to pay for the Iraq war, and we wouldn’t have had as many workers with jobs being outsourced, and we would have had fewer kids, because their fathers would have died on the battlefield over there. And China would have been so involved in ridding us from Asian soil that they would not have moved into China and Latin America.
Maliki’s just a convenient whipping boy. You can’t blame the puppet for the failures of the puppeteer.
Scarecrow,
Great post as always.
It sounds like the Democrats as usual are far behind where us common folks are (away from the Beltway hype.) This is gonna get ugly as the enabling Democrats are like spouses in an abusive relationship.
I wish Levin, McCerney et al would
just STFU.
…even though they all had “other priorities” that kept them from fighting when it was their turn.
Exactly what I was reminded of…As der Chimpenführer was talking about the lessons of Vietnam, I was thinking can he even remember where he was during Vietnam?
Caw Caw!
Fantastic post, Scarecrow!
Your observations (and writing) are right on. Keep the focus on Bush/Cheney and their failures. Any failure of the Iraq gov’t is directly attributable to Bush’s failures.
I’ve been watching with great interest the propaganda surge as Rove is walking out the door. No one seems to be talking about his role in this, and pointing out the cynicism and brazenness of this last PR push before he leaves town.
Elliott @ 9
Yes. Madness, and I think that’s the way the Dems should portray this, rather than getting bogged down in the details of Petraeus military progress.
I’m really interested in what the Clinton folks say to explain her statement that it’s time for al Maliki to go. How does it make sense for Iraq? For Hillary? This seems the flip side of the “inexperience” argument — just the opposite of her admonition that presidential candidates should keep some thought to themselves. Anyone have a clue on this?
Scarecrow; the RIGHT stuff. Damn good kick off, and one more reason why the Mad Hatter needs to be evicted from the party.
I’m waiting for some intrepid reporter to ask McCain if thinks he would have died in a North Vietnames prison if Nixon/Kissinger had followed Bush/neocon advice to continue fighting.
The easiest refutation of the bullshit Bush is slinging is to refer to the Pentagon Papers, which showed that the war, right from the start, right from the middle `50s, was a lost cause.
That’s the strongest similarity of Vietnam to Iraq–they were hopeless, ill-considered ambitions from the very beginning.
You don’t think Bush is having regrets over his (lack of) service in the Texas Air National Guard, feeling that his actions may have cost the US victory in Vietnam? “Gosh, if only I’d gone to Nam in the first place, we would have won that stinkin’ war.” Maybe this Iraq adventure is his own little way of trying to do penance, by rebuilding America’s manliness in the world.
Heckuva job there, George!
Peterr @ 20
Never really thought of it that way. But now that you mention it, he does have that overbearing-dad-at-a-little-league-game quality to him.
Bush’s insistence that things will get better in Iraq is yet another prediction. He keeps at it although his record as a prophet, beginning with “Mission Accomplished” stinks. He is like the race track tout who being wrong on the first four races has a “sure thing” for the fifth.
Yesterday’s NYT (Page F5) had a wedding photograph of two high school sweethearts. The bride with flowers and gown looked dismayed. The groom in formal Marine dress was severely disfigured and looked uncertain himself. You cannot look at that picture and not be affected. It made up my mind. I’m joining the general strike on 9/11.
JF @ 21
M’self, I don’t think Bush has ever had a regret in his life. After all, he spent most of life as a drunken fuck-up, and, now, he’s the big cheese of these United States. George W. Bush is just one of those people who is completely sure his shit don’t stink.
Scarecrow @ 17
not even a little bit.
Great post by the way Scarecrow. And like the TV ad the Neocons have put together shows how nervous they feel, because to bring Vietnam into the equation is VERY risky, particularly after they had insisted this was not Vietnam. My thinking is that they know they have to get out, and want to make sure it is known that it is OUR fault for losing (we made them leave) not their fault for going in there in the first place and totally screwing up the process. I haven’t seen the TV ad, but showing a guy without legs, I for one have a very difficult time even looking at pictures. It could be a double edged sword (sorry for the pun) in highlighting the tragedy of this whole thing.
I thought Andy Card said you don’t launch a new product in August?
Scarecrow @ 17
My take on this is that every single one of our Dem candidates are so busy trying to rake in enough money to run their races, that they have lost sight of why they are running. Richardson shoots himself in the ass at LOGO, Obama fumbles the flap over taking out bin Laden, Clinton wades into the same water of interfering with the governments of other countries.
The length of this campaign is making every single candidate appear smaller and less qualified each day this goes on. And the Repubs sit back and wait–play to their bloodthirsty base, and let the Dems eat each other alive (while the R’s sic their media owners on every Dem gaffe, or encouraging them to invent gaffe’s out of whole cloth).
Ultimately, it seems to me that this entire pre-primary season is setting us up for white knight candidates to ride in to save us at the last minute–on both sides of the aisle. We’ll all be so sick of Rudy, Mutt, Hillary, Barack & Edwards that we’ll be begging Al Gore to come back on our side, and Newt on theirs.
Bad choices all around.
Go Kucinich!
Richmond at 12 re your China owns us now…
no scheiss. Erin Burnett reported this a.m. they own a big chunk of the U.S. subprime mortgage market.
Prairie Sunshine @ 26
This isn’t the launch. This is the teaser. After Petraeus’ (er, the White House’s) report on the paradise that is Iraq comes out, that’s when we’ll get hit with something new. Like Iran’s interference in the otherwise safe and secure Iraq….
Scarecrow, I love ya, but I don’t agree with the last paragraph. Bush would absolutely love it if folks quit focussing on Maliki. From William Douglas and Margaret Talev of McClatchy, in the KC Star this morning:
Avoiding talk of Maliki is letting Bush shift the goalposts. Again. For the um-teenth time.
Ask the GOP how that “political reconciliation” is going in Iraq. Then ask them again.
Bush is scared of talking about Iraqi politics. We shouldn’t enable his phobia.
man, I wish scarecrow couldn’t sleep in the morning so these posts would come sooner
anyway, the president’s comparison to vietnam is bizzare
any time we talk about it we should just say;
“this president actually thinks we should stay in Iraq for more then the amount of time we spent in vietnam, over ten years, is he out of his mind?…and we should loose more then 50,000 American lives…what is wrong with his man?
has he gone berserk?
why isn’t anyone doing a mental health evaluation becuase this man has phsycological problems”
I’m not kidding, the democrats need to start treating him like he is a sick man….he is after all…examine his speach when governer, he has lost mental capacity
and then we can ask him if people like himself will be able to buy their way out of the sacrifice he’s asking by using “their fathers political capitol”
BAM
montag -
Nice job on the Cash song downstairs!
Some observations.
1. Bush is not on vacation this year; he is “out to lunch”.
2. Using the Vietnam analogy, if we withdraw now in twenty years Iraq will be a capitalist trading partner. If we don’t, what the consequences will be are unknown. Vietnam lasted 13 or so years and was one of the longest wars in American history. Sorry, the Cold War doesn’t count as a war in this sense.
3. If we pull out and Iraqis gain control over their oil, who are they going to sell it to? Even China is developing alternative energy technology as rapidly as they can.
4. Will the Saudis really let OPEC price oil high enough to generate an real alternative energy program in the backward US? They didn’t in the 1980s.
Just a reminder, al-Maliki is from the al-Dawa party.
In 1983, men from al-Dawa suicide bombed the US Embassy in Kuwait.
Eventually, these members were imprisoned and became known as the Kuwait 17.
Then, in order to secure the release of the Kuwait 17, Hizbollah, an ally of Al-Dawa, nabbed 30 hostages.
See:
SHULTZ SEES LINK BETWEEN BEIRUT, KUWAIT ATTACKS OFFICIALS IDENTIFY MAN WHO DROVE TRUCK BOMB, The Miami Herald, December 14, 1983
Secretary of State George Shultz said Tuesday that there “quite likely” was a link between the U.S. Embassy bombing in Kuwait and attacks on American facilities in Lebanon. He warned of possible retaliation.
(snip)
The sources said the investigators matched the prints on the fingers with those on file with Kuwaiti authorities and tentatively identified the assailant as Raed Mukbil, an Iraqi automobile mechanic who lived in Kuwait and was a member of Hezb Al Dawa, a fundamentalist Iraqi Shiite Moslem group based in Iran.
Beirut Bombers Seen Front for Iranian-Supported Shiite Faction, The Washington Post, January 4, 1984
The terrorist group that claimed responsibility for the bombing of the U.S. Marine compound and the French military headquarters here may be a front for an exiled Iraqi Shiite opposition party based in Iran, in the view of a number of Arab and western diplomatic sources.
Authorities in Kuwait say their questioning of suspects in the recent bombing there of the U.S. and French embassies indicates a clear link between Islamic Jihad, a shadowy group that says it carried out the Beirut attacks, and Al Dawa Islamiyah, the main source of resistance to the government of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
Al Dawa (The Call) has been outlawed in Iraq, where it wants to establish a fundamentalist Islamic state to replace the secular Baath Socialist government of Saddam Hussein, who is a Sunni Moslem.
It draws its strength from the large Shiite population in southern Iraq. Thousands of its most militant members were expelled to Iran in 1980 before the outbreak of the Iranian-Iraqi war and joined Al Dawa there. But it also has a large following in Lebanon among Iraqi exiles and sympathetic Lebanese Shiites.
While Al Dawa operates out of Tehran, it is not clear whether its activities abroad are under direct Iranian control or merely have Iran’s tacit acceptance.
THE IRAN-CONTRA AFFAIR: AN UNSOLVED CASE, WaPo Sept 6, 1987
The reference was to 17 Shiite extremists held in Kuwait in connection with 1983 bombings of the American and French embassies that killed six and injured 80. Most of the 17 belonged to Dawa, an Iranian-backed fundamentalist group. From the time the first American hostage was seized in Beirut in 1984, the Hezbollah in Lebanon had repeatedly insisted on the Shiites’ release as a condition for freeing Americans. Some of the 17 are reportedly relatives of some of the kidnapers in Beirut.
Aarrggh!
I screwed up the blockquote of my comment at 30, and tried too quickly to jump in and fix it, but now it’s locked in.
The quote ends with “That hasn’t happened” and what follows is me, not Douglas and Talev.
Preview is my friend.
Preview is my friend.
Preview is my friend.
[Mod: fixed]
Waccamaw @ 32
Thanks. Was just sitting there, thinking, “Turdblossom? Orange Blossom? Orange Blossom Special. Turdblossom Special!” :)
Bush wasn’t worried about staying in Vietnam when he was in the service. Now he thinks we should have stayed. Bush thinks we need to stay in Iraq. Later he will know he was wrong.
FLIP-FLOP
Peterr @ 35
It is by preview alone I set my mind in motion.
I served in Vietnam (1966-67). The United States had a mutual defense treaty with the government of South Vietnam, and both the U.S. and South Vietnam had signed on to the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO), an international organization for collective defense established on September 8, 1954. Whatever we thought of the Vietnam War then or what we think of the war today, there was some semblance of legality about our presence in Vietnam.
I did not like the Vietnam War, but I never had the feeling that I, as a naval officer, was violating international law.
On the contrary, there is nothing legal about our invasion of Iraq or our occupation of the country. This war sprang from the Big Brain of George W. Bush. What Bush has done to Iraq is no different than the several wars Slobodan Milosevic started in the Balkans during the 1990s. And we hauled Milosevic off to the Hague.
DocRoss at 28 – The new Ari Fleischer campaign is directed to their bloodthirsty base. Bush’s Bloodthirsty Base is a disgrace to Americans. We should never stop saying that. Bush’s Billions Dollar Base has been paid off to the point that each person has become a fat tick on America.
perris at 32 – Democrats must indeed treat Bush, Cheney, Rove, Fleischer et al as the nauseatingly sick sociopaths that they are. Bush’s Base is sick as well. It has infected America and there has to be a purge.
ineedalife @ 10
Saw it, wrote about it, asked others to read about it – please do – it’s called a chapter 5-13.
A couple of points before getting down to work. The first is that Bush’s ability to sell the ‘backstab’ account of our defeat in Vietnam has about as much traction as his attempt to sell the privatization of Social Security. He has no credibility, and couldn’t sell lemonade to a pack of thirsty kids on a 100 degree day. That history will not be rewritten.
The second point goes to Hillary and the Dems. I have been reading Ian Kershaw’s Fateful Decisions and last night got through the chapter on FDR’s steering the United States into support for Britain between May 1940 and November 1941. He wanted to do something, but didn’t see how he could get ahead of American opinion, of which one-third (the famous one-third) were America Firsters and strongly opposed to any participation. The American people were prepared to support Britain (the equally famous 68 percenters), but not to the point of sending troops. But any real support for Britain, such as convoying supplies, ran the real risk of conflict. And so he waited. It was very trying for those who saw the Nazi threat and wanted to move faster.
Now the moral of this story is that neither Reid nor Pelosi can move faster than the public. It isn’t obvious that the public want impeachment of anybody, even Gonzales. The problems are too arcane, and hardly anyone actually believes they are being listened to by the NSA (silly them). As to Iraq withdrawal, they are for it, but not for its consequences, of which they have been programmed by the MSM and the administration to fear.
So what’s the real moral of the story? The real moral is that those of us who strongly want this Occupation to end and the Occupation of our own government to end have to keep pushing, the way those who wanted the US to bring more vigorous support to Britain had to keep pushing. It’s up to us, not to our leaders to change public opinion. This is sad, but it seems to be the way it works in our kind of democracy.
The easiest response to Bush on this is the simple question: How did you serve during the Vietnam war? Did anyone in you family serve during that war? We can ask this of almost any of the neo-cons.
so iraq IS vietnam
except it isn’t
get out now. period.
Gnome de Plume @ 8
They are doing their best to make him look good by comparison.
realworld @ 43
right freaking on
TarheelDem @ 33
Important point. In the `90s, OPEC considered that break point to be $40/bbl, and the price pretty much stayed below that. Now that they’ve established a new lower shelf at $55-60, in part due to the declining dollar, I’m not sure what their next move will be.
I think the Saudi royals, in particular, are caught between a rock and a hard place. They’re on the one hand forced to expand job opportunities for their subjects and improve social services to keep the radicals from going after them instead of the West, and on the other, are determined to increase their own personal wealth as a hedge against declining output and to maintain the very corrupt way of life (and their connections to the West) that infuriates the radicals in the first place.
It’s a chase-your-tail scenario that may encourage them to keep prices high, which will only speed the conversion to alternatives/renewables.
Good point Dave99. And while I was on the other side then, Peace Corps (69-71), the emotional “push” (propaganda) to save the U.S. from Communism, in a sense was a greater danger to American ways of life (Democracy, capitalism, independent homestead farming) than we see in this case. In the 30s there had indeed been an active Communist movement in the U.S. An Islamic movement threat here in the U.S. trying to convert folks now? Not so much.
I think the closer analogy to what is happening with our Iraq invasion is McKinley’s Imperialism a century ago (same type of gilded age economic situation), when we got Hawaii (illegally) and Porto Rico, but got our asses wiped in the Phillipines. Cuba by they way was in play then too, and we got our asses wiped there as well.
Scarecrow:
Exactly!!
al Maliki is NOT a weak or ineffective Prime Minister: He’s a shrewd politician with a decades old plan in mind.
It is not that the Iraqi Parliament cannot enact the US’ directives.
It is that the Iraqi Parliament will not enact the US’ directives.
Why?
The government we see in Iraq is over twenty years in the making.
During the twenty plus years prior to the deposing of Saddam Hussein, Al-Maliki, al-Hakim, Bayan Jabr, et al have been fighting through their opposition groups (al-Dawa, Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq) to Islamicize Iraq and NOT to Americanize Iraq.
Remember: (The Iran-Iraq War: Struggle Without End
CSC 1984)
Scarecrow:
From yesterday’s discussion of W H actions, it appears that not only will withdrawal not happen, but the US will maintain the occupation of Iraq permanently for two main reasons: to serve as a base of permanent military operations in the region and to control Iraqi oil for the real governors of the US – corporations – military contractors and big oil.
I think that your post today should be discussed in the context of the larger picture:
Dems are acting on behalf of corporate interests and not those of we, the people.
We need to begin to think as the Dems being a part of the problem and the brokenness of government, and not as part of the solution.
Their (all elected and appointed officials) interests are not ours. Their aims are not our aims. Their motivations do not come from serving their voter constituencies, but rather, their donor and financing consituencies.
Good morning, all. Great post as usual, Scarecrow. Thanks.
Some random thoughts:
By bringing up Vietnam in this context, I’m convinced more than ever the Shrub is relying primarily on Barney as his chief advisor.
The only upside I can see to Dems calling for al Maliki to step down is that it forces Bush to come out in support of him. It just keeps that symbol of failure out there on the front pages.
And finally, if al Maliki did step down, who’d replace him? Chalabi, al-Sadr, Bremer?
Heh.
Chimpy had a hard time trying to remember anything back in the 60/70s as he was fuc**d up most of the time. Coke and booze has made his memories fuzzy.
Who writes these stupid bloody speeches for him anyway, doesn’t anyone do any fact checking? (Are they ex-fox). We tried to prop up one damned dictator after another…no democracy, no freedom.
I can imagine raven taking deep breathes and counting to ten before saying anything about this latest idiocy.
Peterr @ 31
You haven’t given a reason why Dems should be calling for al Maliki’s ouster. The report merely says that political reconciliation was supposed to be the objective, and it hasn’t happened. There is indeed a problem of governance in Baghdad, but where is the link to al Maliki, and how does replacing him with X change the scene. Moreover, if the surge is supposed to create the conditions for political change, and the change doesn’t happen, the surge has failed, by definition, at the cost of 500 US soldiers and countless Iraqis.
By implying al Maliki is the problem, all Bush needs to do is replace al Maliki and ask for another couple of FUs to give X a chance to succeed. It’s rope a dope, and Hillary’s the dope, as far as I can see.
Morning all. Gorgeous here this morning. Hope everyone else is having decent weather today, too — especially the folks who have been dealing with excessive rain the last few days.
Knut Wicksell @ 41
even if this is so – it is no excuse for being so behind the public.
but even more… i do think that our political leaders have a responsibility to try to communicate their vision for where they think we should be moving… not to shape public opinion with lies and fear, but to help us understand what they think and why. instead we get kabuki and spin. that’s not ok.
Peterr @ 30
Your bold above is correct, which is why we should blame Bush – his administration said the surge would allow time for political change in Iraq. That change hasn’t happened. It was their justification for this action, and they need to be hammered for its failure. Bush would then have to, as he always does, find someone else to blame. He was close to throwing Maliki under the bus just a couple of days ago and then switched back to defending him (from the Dems!).
Blaming Maliki provides convenient cover for Bush as he can make points by defending his puppet with ridiculous claims of sovereignty, etc.
It should be – the surge was to provide time, time was provided, still no resolution, the surge has failed. And all the “stabbed in the back” rhetoric about past wars is not going to make any difference.
N=1 @ 48
Thanks for saying this. I think it and I’m afraid it is true. The Dems dont seem to represent me.
daveb99 @ 39
I will buy tickets to the trial when they haul his sorry ass off to the Hague
The Viet Nam and Iraq wars are the same in one way: no one from the Bush family is willing to serve. Definately they are a group of fortunate sons…and daughters.
Has anyone seen the Ari Fleisher group commercials? I was not impressed. Same old talking points they have been using for 3 years. 9/11, 9/11, they will attack us again – Oh, No the sky is falling. That along with we cannot surrender. We cannot surrender.
I thought they needed to spy on Americans to prevent another 9/11. Now we have to keep 130,000 troops in Iraq to prevent another 9/11? And who said anything about surrendering to anyone? These propaganda messages are lame.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 52
“not yet,” she replies glumly.
But I’m glad the sun is shining somewhere today!
N=1 @ 50
These are important questions, and there’s a post brewing on that — the fundamental fact is that there is a majority of Americans who want a completely different set of policies, and they are not being represented by the front runners/leadership of either party — and we have to face that. It is a hard question to face.
Yeah and the people who run this site think bringing back the Clintons is part of a reformation. Gimme a break.
Heres a start explaining why Bush’s Bloodthirsty Base listens to him:
How Much Money?
How much are taxpayers paying for what Barry Lynn, Executive Director of American’s United calls “federally subsidized employment discrimination?” According to Daniel Zwerdling who produced two programs on faith-based initiative for Bill Moyers TV show NOW in September, 2003, “administration spokesmen say they can’t break down how much money has gone so far to religious groups .. they claim they don’t keep that information.”
The March, 2004, issue of Church and State reports that the “Faith Czar” Jim Towey announced to reporters that $40 billion dollars was now available to religious charities.
By studying White House press releases and the White House web site, Daniel Zwerdling found that religious groups could apply to more than a hundred federal programs that gave out more than $65 billion. In addition, religious groups ccould apply for more money through state-administered programs.
There’s more about the payoffs for war at theocracy watch dot org.
Bush’s Base has lost all moral standing by accepting payoff after payoff.
Interviews with VFW folks who heard the speech yielded comments like “I was in the Korean War. The Middle East is Nothing Like Asia”
My LOCAL newscast said “Bush’ comparison of Iraq to Vietnam has a lot of people scratching their heads”
&
FRANCIS FUKUYAMA (on NPR, without any mention of his being the father of neoconservatism) wasn’t exactly thrilled with the comparison either.
This is another sign that the only group the WH knows how to talk to are the 29%s who actually believe things like “we could have won Vietnam if it weren’t for those darn kids and that weird dog.”
Cheers folks!
Straight between the eyes as usual, Scarecrow; thank you.
I hope you have the time, money, and all the electronic assistance necessary to forward your sense to the unable-to-think members of The New Best Congress Money Can Buy.
It could be a wee bit better than Viet Nam because there is an experienced country with clout nearby to which we could hand over the whole mess, Turkey!
montag @ 46
all they have needed to do is drop prices dramatically whenever there are signs of a real market for alternative energy industries. once the market is destroyed, then prices can then be raised again. rinse, repeat. – that is if they can control prices.
deceivelieinveigleobfuscate @ 64
That’s important feedback. As I see it, Bush used a neocon argument about VN that only the extreme fringe of the country believes — so i think the Dems would be smart to say he’s simply joined the nuttiest of the nuttiest, would still have us bogged down in VN today, would still have McCain in a prison, and would do the same for Iraq. The meme should be that simple.
I’ve commented before that this was going to restore the faith in the invincible US military machine. It failed and we are losing. Can we bomb the shit out of anyone anywhere? You betcha. We’ve proved this again and again. We got it.
What these jerks didn’t have a clue about was that when the took out Sadam, they uncorked a hornet’s nest of religious groups which had centuries or animus between them.
We haven’t been able to suppress these feuds and so you have a free for all and democracy is not going to make them all happy campers.
So now these MIC people see this as another example of how we can’t occupy and press a people to our will and give us access to their treasure. They are pushing back at us and at each other. Our military is in fear of losing another big one and so “defeat is not an option” and they will not let go like a dog with a bone… until they have destroyed the village to save it.
The reality is that Iraq is destroyed, 4 million are refugees, there water and electric systems are in complete disarray. There is no tranquility and everyone is in fear of being shot, or tortured.
Our continued presence is not calming things down, but riling them up.
But who in the beltway is going to stand up and say… we have to stop the bleeding of American blood and treasure and get the hell out of that non winnable disaster. Answer – No one.
But this nation is obviously used to this constant warfare. We endured it for a decade in Nam and we let the exec toss bombs at will because they “trust” the wisdom and the intelligence of our executive. Wrong.
There were winners in Iraq. All the corporations which are laughing all the way to their offshore tax haven bank accounts… and their share holders.
If the people ever wake up and get the real story and can vote for candidates who are not bought and paid for by the “establishment” things might change.
Don’t count on it happening though. They already covered all those bases.
We’re screwed.
Hell, the Dolchstoßlegende is a favorite of fascist dickwads everywhere and has been for nearly a century. It goes all the way back to when the conservative imperialist idiots led by Kaiser Willy lost World War One and didn’t want to admit that they were beat fair and square.
So they blamed the Jews “liberal intellectuals”. just as they did after ‘Nam, and just as they’re doing now.
Scarecrow @ 50
I’m not saying al Maliki is the problem, nor calling for his ouster.
I am saying that Bush’s big initial reason for the surge, and the marker by which we ought to measure the effectiveness of the surge, is political cooperation and stability.
Bush claimed that the surge would allow space for cooperation among the factions. Hasn’t happened much, has it?
Al Maliki is the symptom, not the problem. When Dems quit talking about Maliki, when they quit talking about the political situation in Iraq, when they focus on the military situation, Bush just smiles.
Even Bush has been saying “There’s no exclusively military solution in Iraq.” Fine, so why in the world do Dems not want to talk politics?
There’s something more complicated going on than just stupid warmongering neocon positive reinforcement.
This message to the VFW was coordinated with a 15 million dollar campaign aimed at Republican members of Congress who are in tough races. As Kos quotes Tom Mattzie in the link, this makes little sense from an electoral point of view:
This is really hard to understand. the last thing Sudan Collins or Gordon Smith needs is more advertising about Iraq. Even worse, this will rouse up the 25 percenters, creating pressure, in Smith’s case for a primary run from the right*, which makes losing the seat very likely.
All I can think is that Bush’s people have convinced him that he needs to establish the stab-in-the-back story line to cement his place in history.
Or, more venally, he is afraid of defections, and would rather have the Republicans lose even filibuster numbers in the Senate rather than be forced into leaving.
It is just bizarre. But clearly coordinated with the VFW speech.
maunga @ 65
We’ve already handed this over to another experienced country with clout nearby — IRAN — and all of this is just trying to conceal/deny that strategic blunder.
Scarecrow @ 68
Scarecrow @ 68
Excellent post.
Scarecrow @ 72
True, O King, but only the Shi’s section, not the other two bits, Kurdistan and “Sunnistan”, and there will be a spot of shitstorm if we walk leaving Iran moving north and west.
In typical Bush fashion, saying it makes it so. They are weighing the public sentiment about Nam vs. the public knowledge about Nam and betting that most of their party can’t distinguish between fact or fiction.
Aside from Kerry, where are the Dems challenging this latest PR stratergie?
Morning, pups. Up early here in Alaska, getting ready for school to start next week.
Bush’s VFW speech has so many layers of both irony and cognitive dissonance. And going through wikipedia this morning, looking for information on WTF that guy was up to from the Spring of 1972 through his discharge from the TANG a year or so later, shows the place has been heavily scrubbed since I checked on that issue there last.
But the irony of this coward telling a huge roomful aging vets about history is very rich.
Why can’t the US leave and let the people work out their own way forward? Will it be violent? Yea if we keep pumping weapons into the rest of the world and support the free and unfettered trade in weapons.
Haven’t the leaders of this country learned a thing about the real costs of war? No! But war is good for profits. And profits rule and so we will can’t seem to rid ourselves of was unless we take the profit motive out of it.
OT but grist for the mill: Flipping the Bird Once Again
Catapulting the
recycled b.s.propaganda:“I’m a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign-policy matters with war on my mind. Again, I wish it wasn’t true, but it is true. And the American people need to know they got a president who sees the world the way it is. And I see dangers that exist, and it’s important for us to deal with them.” G.W. Bush, Feb. 7, 2004.
“This struggle has been called a clash of civilizations. In truth, it is a struggle for civilization. We are fighting to maintain the way of life enjoyed by free nations. And we’re fighting for the possibility that good and decent people across the Middle East can raise up societies based on freedom and tolerance and personal dignity.” – G.W. Bush, September 11, 2006.
“I stand before you as a wartime President. I wish I didn’t have to say that, but an enemy that attacked us on September the 11th, 2001, declared war on the United States of America. And war is what we’re engaged in. The struggle has been called a clash of civilizations. In truth, it’s a struggle for civilization. We fight for a free way of life against a new barbarism — an ideology whose followers have killed thousands on American soil, and seek to kill again on even a greater scale.” G.W. Bush, August 22, 2007
Scarecrow–
I have a post up about this question over at TPM Cafe. There are some good comments that might be helpful in putting together the piece, including some that show just how strongly people feel about withdrawal, regardless of consequences.
Peterr at 70: having a hard time seeing where you disagree with me, then. You argued for making al Maliki the focus, but I don’t think that’s what you meant. You just didn’t want the focus to be “military success,” and I agree with that. The objective was reconciliation; it hasn’t happened; the policy has failed. So I think we agree that there’s no need for Dems to say “we need to replace al Maliki,” let alone get trapped by the argument “and that will solve the problem.”
selise @ 56
You’re not going to get any argument from me on that. I was just trying to get my mind around why they might be doing what they are doing. This isn’t 1940, when we didn’t have a military and premature action would have been catastrophic. There’s no excuse for their cowardice, just explanations.
Scarecrow @ 61
this should have been very clear during the clinton years – and was to many people, although not to me. certainly i wasn’t paying close attention, but also the whitewater/monica/travelgate/… frenzy made it hard to see, and availablity of alternative media was much more limited.
Bush is full of crap on Vietnam and kuddos to all you who have posted here. Thank od he didn’t go to Vietnam, who needed a drunken flyboy overhead in an F-4 with napalm.
The White House has a website showing Bush’s Base how to get their money.
Think about it, they got their grants, they’ve never lived better while “servin’ the Lord,” and their time may be coming to a close.
They’ll buy the Viet Nam myth, they’ll buy the surge is working, as long as they can reapply and get grants that extend beyond 2008.
AZ Matt @ 83
Besides, that was Duke Cunningham’s job….
Great post Scarecrow. What is your read on fellow Nam vets attitude toward the Vietnam War? Here in Georgia I have quite a few buddies who, while they tolerate me for having been in the VVAW and a liberal, really buy the whole bullshit “sold down the river by the press an the liberals”. You know, the “When I Left We Were Winning” dudes. I sometimes think this is more an attitude in the south but I am not sure.
A group that I’m part of, the Delaware Valley Veterans for America, showed the film Sir, No Sir! many times. The film makes it absoluteley crystal clear that the Army of the early 70s was hopelessly broken and simply couldn’t fight any more.
Always follow the money for motivation and cause of action. The people have been stripped of money – and that is why the electorate no longer does the will of the people. You can continue to debate, discuss and ponder over why the WH, Repubs and Dems “don’t understand” the benefits of withdrawal ’til the cows come home to their factory farm automated slaughter houses, but it’s moot. Withdrawal is not being considered because the military contractors, big oil, big pharma, big insurance, and big energy rule the US government. Government no longer has any connection to doing the will of the people.
The rule of law means what? To anyone from those categories, it means nothing. It is solely used to oppress and to restrain and to divest remaining assets from we, the people.
It might be beneficial to read the news about the US from entirely international traditional and blog media sources instead of from within the US, where the propaganda delivered as news is designed to mislead and to control the people.
AZ Matt @ 87
You mean another drunken flyboy
jayackroyd @ 83
Thanks. That was worth reading. I’ve added a link to your post.
Rich @ 91
That was the press and the liberals fault too.
There are amazingly few parallels with Vietnam: different strategy, different enemy, different terrain, different political climate. The only similarity is that in both instances the Washington establishment is warning of the dangers to befall us if we pull out before “achieving victory.” The lesson from Vietnam is that there will be chaos after our departure whether we leave in 4 years or 25 years.
z adura @ 96
But they’ll follow us home. Boogie boogie
raven @ 90
Alaska has the highest %age of VietVets in the USA. A lot came up in the early 1970s – like I did – in disgruntlement over the general malaise of that time, wanting to get away from the BS of the lower 48. And many are retired military. Over the years, those two groups have intermixed in organizations like the VFW and Legion. I’m not a member of either, but have to go to events at both from time to time. I feel uncomfortable around VietVets who remember the time of the war so selectively or purposefully inaccurately these days, especially as the war gets worse and they dig in their heels.
Scarecrow, I hope you don’t mind one more set of links to highlight why the “30%” ain’t movin’.
The 2007 ACF Compassion Capital Fund has closed for more applications. Awardees will be notified in October with their grant amounts.
Here is the White House’s List for grants they can apply for in the future.
…that should help reinforce the notion that this President cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
Scarecrow, you are a master of understatement!
raven @ 90
I never maintained contact, but I suspect your experience is typical. As a Battalion level radio operator, I spent a year on forward LZs in the middle of the jungle, with a couple of stints hiking jungles with CIDGs (local militia with a US captain). No one I knew below the senior officers believed in what we were doing; they just wanted not to be there and not to get killed. The CIDG’s would lead us away from VC. On the LZ, half the perimeter guards were stoned every night, and being “short” was the ultimate goal. They weren’t neocons; they were just kids.
off topic, just something that I just found out in a conversation and a little diversion for everyone;
“did youn turn the air conditioner down”
could mean both, it could mean you made it hotter or colder in the room
diversion
Bush the ‘Nam dodger has got a lot of stupid nerve. We can’t leave Iraq because this and this will happen. Though I do find this has a familiar ring to it respective to one of the Democratic presidential candidate’s very recent comments on the ’surge is basically working’ and ‘we have to prepare for the next war’.
Gnome de Plume @ 8
Unfortunately, the rewriting of history is their game plan, not learning from history in any way. Stephen Colbert hit the nail on the head last night in his interview, when he insisted that if he only keeps repeating his viewpoint, loudly, then reality will bend to it.
These neocons do think that we should have continued the Vietnam War until we won – because winning and military might is everything. Someone showed me an article last winter blaming the liberals for the U.S. not being successful in Vietnam and in Iraq – get ready for the twisted logic – because we force everyone to feel guilty about racism, and thus cause restraint from unleashing the full force of this country’s terrifying power on the little brown people we attack. If only the liberals would stop trying to make them feel guilty about KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE, and stop hating America, etc etc.
It is never their fault. They are never wrong. It’s just hard love (and they are, after all, lovers, not fighters.)
raven @ 90
It’s the old “sold out on the homefront” by the press and disloyal elements. It was the same sentiment in Germany after WWI which the Nazi’s capitalized on to gain control of the Weimar Republic. This is a very dangerous direction that the Bush Administration is trying to go, we were “sold out on the homefront”. Freedom’s not on the march, fascism is!
forgive my naivety, but being “short” is?
z adura @ 96
CNN coverage last night tried to find parallels:
Cafferty: No one in the Bush/Cheney familiers served in either.
Barbara Starr: are we going back to body counts?
Michael Ware: there is no meaningful central government
David Gergen: another quagmire.
jayackroyd @ 80
excellent. thank you.
If Gore doesn’t come in I’ll, at this point, be voting for this man:
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Many political watchers are wondering exactly why former top Bush aide Karl Rove has attacked New York Sen. Hillary Clinton so aggressively since he announced he was leaving the White House last week.
Well, Joe Trippi, one of former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards’ top strategists, thinks he knows the answer: Rove “doesn’t want John Edwards to win the Democratic nomination.”
“Rove knows that Democrats will rally around whomever he attacks—so he attacks the candidate he thinks Republicans can most easily defeat,” Trippi wrote to supporters in a fundraising e-mail. “It may seem backwards, but Rove and his cronies did the same thing last time around. In 2004, they were scared of John Edwards, so they attacked John Kerry.”
“Rove is using his sneaky, underhanded tactics to try and trick Democrats into rallying around a candidate who won’t be as strong as John in the general election,” Trippi added.
Yesterday I was downtown in DC, and since I was in the neighborhood, I had lunch in the cafeteria at the Brookings Institute. I sat at a table next to four Quiet American white guys debating whether the best metaphor for international terrorism was of a “virus” or a “cancer.”
I wanted to shoot myself.
Elliott @ 105
Counting the days until going home/discharge/rotation to new assignment.
“I’m so short I can walk under the door to get out.”
Parallel terms are “FIGMO” and “AMF”
julierb @ 100
Yeah, this little bit has always irked me… saying that the United States is a nation of peace, when we’ve spent a goodly part of the last fifty years bombing someone, somewhere.
Self-appraisal is not among the typical American’s strong points.
Elliott @ 106
Having very little time left before you get to go home. There were many “short” jokes, and guys would brag about who is “shortest” — the closest to getting to leave.
“I’m so short I can sit on the edge of a dime and not have my feet touch the ground.” = I leave within a week, you suckers.
z adura @ 96
Anyone interested in an FDL pool on when Bush will utter the words, “domino theory?”
Ed*ard Teller @ 98
Yea, I know what you mean. When I went back up to Illinois last summer and saw my old buddies who are still there I was comforted that they had not changed, they knew it was bullshit then and they know it’s bullshit now.
dakine01 @ 111
thanks both of you.
just curious beings 5′2″
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
Good one, OKKiddo. I’ve always said Edwards is the one they most fear.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
Amen, Kiddo. I saw this piece from the AP this morning as well: Edwards embraces message of Real Change
Edwards planned to tell voters they can’t simply replace “a group of corporate Republicans with a group of corporate Democrats, just swapping the Washington insiders of one party for the Washington insiders of the other.” He planned to criticize “the policies of the ’70s, ’80s or ’90s” that “are wedded to the past, ideas and policies that are tired, shopworn and obsolete. We will find no answers there.”
selise @ 56
Hear! Hear!
“That’s not ok” and it’s not leadership. It’s PR. And we are fucked as long as it continues so.
I have been listening carefully to selise, Siun, Dr. Maryam, and Scarecrow and our various discussions about just “what to do” about Iraq and Iran and Pakistan and … it goes on and on.
I can’t stand war and killing for any reason. I know there is a fine tradition (which includes the honourable Joe Wilson) that America’s military might is an important component of our security in the world. But it’s been since WWII that this has been used purely for security.
We as Americans have a deep streak of imperialism we must fight. I have seen myself jumping to imperialistic solutions. My thinking is changing.
I’m a proud peace-nik. No American objective is worth war. Stop genocide yes … but we *never* seem to get around to that, do we? No, instead we have become purveyors of genocide.
And though it still feels unrealistic and unnatural (because I suspect I am American) … I really think Iraq and every other country should have what Americans demand for their own country: the sovereign right to control their own destiny as a country.
Knut Wicksell @ 84
Sorry, I thought they were supposed to be leaders. Silly me.
Scarecrow @ 113
I’m so short I have to stand on a step ladder to kiss an ants ass.
Pachacutec @ 109
Hmm, given that the US is the largest international terrorist….
Christy has a new thread ready.
Scarecrow,
Sometimes I worry that Rove has figured out how to buy off enough contractors, congregations and corporations to actually ensure the majority.
Rove’s math is that money trumps patriotism every time.
Rove’s kiss off to the Base was a warning shot. Follow Bush or lose the money. I am afraid that logic, history and morality are lost on them.
They’re all just tryin to get by in this thoroughly trashed economy.
Can the Viet Nam vets rise up and break through this newest round of 15 million dollar enhanced bullsh*t?
Can anyone reach paid fanatics?
Can the Viet Nam vets rise up and break through this newest round of 15 million dollar enhanced bullsh*t?
Yea like we/they did in support of Kerry when the pigs took him down with the Swiftboat bullshit. Not likely.
MayDaze @ 117
Well I certainly intend to vote for him next January. He’s not perfect, but I think he’s the strongest, and certainly most progressive of the candidates.
I wonder if it’s his own background as a trial lawyer that has Rove et al the most scared — Edwards may have the most chops to find out exactly what happened in the DoJ and have the most incentive to clean it up? Just a wild guess there…
Also, good morning everyone. This is a driveby — I’ll be back later when I get into work, time to beat the traffic now…
They are setting him of for a Diem
raven @ 97
Gary Trudeau has been hitting this very thing the last few days in Doonesbury. Very snarkalicious.
As other posters have mentioned, it is clear that there are no fact-checkers going over these speeches. It is also abundantly clear that no one in this administration has any grasp of history (actual, not fantasy) or of basic civics.
IrishJim @ 118
Interesting. I heard part of an interview the other night with Matt Bai, author of “The Argument: Billionaires, Bloggers and the Battle to Remake Democratic Politics” who basically argues for a paradigm shift in American political thought.
Edwards seems to be taking that concept to heart by expanding his “Two Americas” theme from 2004. I think Trippi has some really good ideas and Edwards was very smart to hire him.
I have wondered if Vietnam vets who passionately & angrily believe we should not have left Vietnam & that we should stay in Iraq do so because the thought that these wars were a grave error is too painful to even contemplate.
raven @ 125
raven, I get this sick feeling that if we don’t follow the money – to contractors, congregations and corporations – and EMOTIONALLY PUBLICIZE IT EVERY DAY – we may not be able to win.
Congress can work for us all they want. The us turns out to be many contractors, many congregations, many corporations.
The 70% has to call bullsh*t on the 30% day in and day out or I’m afraid we lose.
George @ 82
The armed forces (hijackers) that declared war on us on 9/11 DIED on 9/11.
This whole thing has been SO overblown. PR. Propaganda.
Boston1775 @ 124
He didn’t need to boy off voters – he just rigged the voting machines.
ironranger @ 130
Yea, and his initials are Jim Webb.
Oh, sorry, my bad. He believes the Neocon bullshit about the Nam but not Iraq.
[IronRanger, a great observation…unfortunately EPU-ed…bring it along to the new thread. Sunny Mod]
N=1 @ 133
Ya, and there’s that, too.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
At *least* Trippi is thinking and trying to get ahead of the game. We could use more of that!
GO EDWARDS!
I have not read that much Noam Chomsky, and I don’t take him as gospel, but a couple of years ago I read a long, revelatory piece by him about our purposes in South Vietnam. I can’t find it. Is anyone familiar with this?
There is a deep similarity with the Viet Nam war: in both cases the government just ignored the demands of the citizens to leave. The protests, the increasing violence, the civil unrest, forced LBJ out, but the next president, Nixon, kept us there 5 grueling years, killing more and more people, for nothing. All the protests, all the congressional petitions, the visits, the marches, the moral arguments, the constant drumbeat of citizen action, all for nothing.
It is depressing to see it all again.
Prairie Sunshine @ 29
Scheiss. What is it about China that makes American brains freeze up?
Scamming China is actually Bu$h’s most successful ploy. China is, in effect, trapped. It’s sitting on an enormous wad of US Treasury paper that will be good for nothing but recycling if the US economy craters. If it “brings down” the US, it will at one stroke lose both a huge wad of its savings and one of its most important overseas markets (not to mention the fact that the resultant world depression would take out most of its other export markets). It’s stuck. It can reduce its exposure, cautiously, but if it pulls out suddenly it’s good-bye to the value of everything it has paid in so far.
I think Bu$h would love to repay the Chinese with American dollars worth little or nothing. And you know, the Chinese are pretty good at reading history. They know that the Germans pulled that scam in the 1920s and survived it quite nicely, thank you. They, as in the ruling elite, also know they couldn’t survive China’s rise to prosperity being kneecapped, because economic success is the only legitimation the government has.
IrishJim @ 118
Edwards speaks for me.
Bush’s revisionist history completely ignores the reality of the time. In the first place, 500,000 troops were not enough to “win” the Vietnam war, and 500,000 troops was all that the armed forces could reasonably provide on a long-term basis, even with a draft. Even with constant infusion of fresh recruits, the strain on the Army was breaking it, which is what we’re seeing now in Iraq.
Second, Nixon was forced to end the war once he had ended the draft. He was forced to end the draft by unrelenting political pressure. Once peace marches come under fire from government troops, things have already gotten so far out of hand that the status quo cannot continue long. My lottery number in 1973 was 13. Had Nixon not ended the draft, I would have had to go. (And I hate that I have to thank Nixon for that.) It was really the draft, not the war per se, that primarily motivated the protesters, and it was the loss of tens of thousands of nice, middle-class kids that motivated their parents to join the anti-war movement.
Bush talks about bowing to political pressure, and how he’s agin’ it. But you have to remember that this was political pressure bordering on open revolution. Nixon, the most authoritarian president of modern times prior to Bush, simply did not have the resources to quell the protests, to silence the mob outside his gates. You have to remember that these protests came just a few years on the heels of the riots in Detroit, Watts, Baltimore, etc. Burning cities create political pressure unlike anything Bush has experienced. He probably doesn’t remember those years clearly, for whatever reason.
Third, the war had put the economy into the tank. These were the years when the term “stag-flation” was coined, to refer to a condition where the economy was not growing, but in which there was significant inflation (massive by today’s standards.)
I’m no economist, and if I was, I might deny it, but it seems to me that there is a profound difference between government spending on social welfare and government spending on war. If we spend a billion dollars on, say, refrigerators, we have provided jobs and tax revenues and all that, but the world is richer to the tune of a billion dollars worth of refrigerators. On the other hand, if we spend a billion dollars on bombs, and we use them, while we have created jobs and all that, when we’re done, the world is poorer to the tune of a billion dollars worth of bombs plus whatever previously existed in the place where we dropped the bombs. My point here is that military spending, especially weapons spending juices the economy without providing any underlying benefit.
Nixon had little choice in the matter. He had drawn out the war long past the point at which it was clear that we could not win (and done so for political purposes, I might add). The war had to end because it could not be sustained militarily, politically or economically. Nixon was an evil realist, but he was a realist. Bush, by contrast…
Thus endeth the rant.
I know I’m deep in EPU territory, but thanks for the great post, Scarecrow, and for the link to the Jay Ackroyd post over at TPM Cafe. There are no good options at this point. And I’m not sure how Dems and progressives can move those immovable objects called Congressional Republicans.
There’s another lesson from Vietnam for those making noises about “removing” Maliki. They should look back to the assasination of Diem, his replacement by Minh, Minh’s overthrow in a coup and how those events did nothing to help, and much to make the situation in Vietnam worse.
brendan @ 137
chomsky has written so much it’s hard to know which one you are referring to (and i only know a small fraction of his writing)… can you give me some hints? when was it written? how long was it (book, chapter, or essay)?
this is a good reference.
I have two more points on this subject.
One: I scrolled down and found the article on eugenics after I posted what I had read about the guilt factor and racism – which leads me to connect war and racism even more strongly. And this must be addressed, directly, if the neocons are to be stopped.
Two: this link to an article by Ray McGovern: http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/60493/
It’s about the insane probability that our country is going to attack Iran – more neocon thinking at work.
IF WE DO NOT PAY ATTENTION, THEY ARE GOING TO DO THIS, and they are utilizing this premature presidential champaign hoopla to distract us all. We have got to focus on stopping this from happening – by getting the MSM to understand what the hell is going on, for starters. And maybe even laying it on our Congresspeople. If we don’t stop this madness, nothing else will matter.
all waffling congressional reps/senators should be required to see this online slide show of Nina Berman’s work. These are heartbreaking images of young people damaged by this war-missing limbs, missing sight, and at one wedding, a groom in his formal marine wear missing most of his face, ears, scalp. We should begin to minize the chances that our sons and daughters suffer the fate of these purple heart winners.
Call the armed services committees and urge them to hear from
*Gen. Batiste
*the 7 NCOs who authored the Sunday NYT oped
*Charles Ferguson, director of No End in Sight
*Nina Berman and the subjects of her photographs
The numbers are
Senate: 1-202-224-3871
House: 1-202-225-4151
It strikes me that W’s (or as someone called him once Preznit Chimpy McFlightSuit) goal in all this is more to incite the old arguments over the Vietnam war than to actually make any real sense (which he hasn’t for a long time). Rather it is the tried and true Rovian tactic of divide and conquer by stirring the pot viciously to patch together a bare majority…or in this case a superminority of 33% 1 to foil veto-proof votes.
Bush is mostly aiming to win back his base that he lost on immigration. If he has a unified gooper front in congress, he knows he can’t be forced to do anything regarding the troops- there are a congtingent of knuckle draggers who have always contended that we lost Viet Nam cause:
1) liberals made us give up too soon.
2) politicians restricted the tactics of the military
Bush is probably WITH the knuckledraggers on this issue- but the point is to get em all on board solidly so that gooper congesscritters know that they’ll pay for crossing him.
The downside is that his speech makes him an obvious idiot- saying that we should have continued to fight on in the Nam- even though he wasn’t willing to risk a hair on his ass in the endeavor..
I seem to remember that he used to mouth off about “politicians lost Viet Nam” well before he got into the White House.
Fuckin idiot- and that’s bein charitable.
My general strike has been called off. I’m a lawyer scheduled to argue a motion on 9/11.I told my client I would ask the court to postpone the motion, but I’m not sure the judge will accept participation in a general strike as an excuse. My client (the defendant) decided to accept the settlement (an exchange of releases without consideration-I was seeking my fees from the plaintiff) I don’t want to leave people with the wrong idea.
I do not play this comment game well, perhaps because I don’t drink coffee. Everyone agrees things are bad with not much we can do about it. In hierarchical societies with penalties for not obeying orders, one is inclined to stay in line. The generals who followed orders and attacked Iraq and those who followed them, seem ready to do the same for Iran. That would be serious madness, but chances are we’ll do it if the decider so decides. I don’t know what it takes to break the habit of obedience. It must be broken because we have no alternative.
BTW I don’t know if you can get the NYT page F5 for 8/22/07. The picture will break your heart. Maybe you don’t want your heart broken.
Dems should kick the holy shit out of Clusterfck on the Viet Nam issue- he’s seriously out of the mainstream in his implications that we should not have withdrawn from the Nam—if they can make that point clearly—it’s an easy transition to the point that he’s clearly out to lunch on Iraq as well..
Strangle the fucker with his own words!!
N=1: the US will maintain the occupation of Iraq permanently
That POV is so American.
That POV pre-supposes that the US actually has control of Iraq.
That POV completely fails to factor in the millions of Iraqis (!) who overwhelmingly want the US to withdraw.
Iraq will never be a vassal state to the US.
The US will be expulsed by the Iraqis when the Iraqi government has drained the beast of its blood and treasure, thereby securing the continual rising of Bush’s Islamic Republic.
The wonder is that the national press doesn’t just laughing — everyone start laughing — every time George opens his mouth. He’s that silly.
On a different note, I’ve come to one decision: No on Hillary. Her assertion that the surge is working sent me over the edge. I can rationalize her vote for the resolution but not this. I won’t vote for under any circumstance. I won’t give any money. And I’m afraid this feeling is beginning to spill over to pretty much all Democrats. Feinstein’s vote for the FISA bill just ended any support of her she might have gotten from me.
Frankly, if there was a way of moving to Canada or England, we’d probably do it.
N=1 @ 42
Peter, WADR; Scarecrow’s right. This is so far gone, that bush and the warbots HAVE to have a ready scapegoat.
And increasingly, that is Maliki’s function. Bush sorta/kinda still backs him, but he let’s his underlings do the real hatchet-work, and what is appalling to me, is that the dems are helping the repubs, as the goopers desperately strive to blame someone else for their humongous fuckup.
But bush’s balls are solidly vise-bound, because if Maliki goes; what follows?
Another election? With the way things are in Iraq now, that’s a joke.
A strong man; a la Allawi?
There goes the “democracy” fig-leaf, hiding the scrofulous third-member of oil-greed.
If Maliki’s government falls, the Brits will be looking at back to square one. Think Gordon Brown will stick around for that?
No. Bush’s ass is tied to Maliki. And he also knows that no one else is going to be able to “stabilize” Iraq. He’s stuck with keeping him at arm’s length. Close enough to use for scapegoating, but he can’t afford to go full-on Saigon-revolving-door on him.
I insist, the Brits are the key to this. When they leave, it won’t be spinnable. It will be them saying. “That’s it. No mas.”
It’s going to be a test of character for Gordon Brown, to find out how long he’s willing to see Brit troops killed to try to cover bush and the GOP’s asses long enough for them to make the long-march to the D.C. bus station in November of 2008, and dump the misery on the democrats.
It’s simple: the blame-game is GOING to be played, and it will played for the marbles in the next election. If the democrats keep shut, and keep parroting the GOP shitspeak about the Iraqi Government failing to deliver the apple-pie ending, they will be handing bush, Rove, and the rest of the republicans a chainsaw to use on them.
They shouldn’t cut the funds, but every fucking time some bushturd says:
“We can’t leave, it would be violent and chaotic.”
the democrats should be howling:
“Right you are! And which administration is responsible for that?”
“And why should we listen to you, when you tell us that things are getting better? You have ZERO cred, President Yellowcake.”
AZ Matt @ 87
He couldn’t go to Vietnam. He wasn’t certified to fly the kinds of jets that were being used in Nam. He was very very protected, even from himself. He couldn’t have gone to Nam if he had begged.
It seems stupid to bring up but I think Shrub is trying to move the political battleground from “winning the war” in Iraq, to “not loosing the war” in Iraq. Most Americans understand this war can’t be won, but Americans don’t like loosers, so I think it is just a political ruse to alter the discourse. At the end of the day I don’t think Americans will fall for this, but I’m still always amazed me how arrogant Shrubco are to try anything to get their way.