All the world is an ill-conceived stage (via atrios) for these people, isn’t it? Well, I’ll see your “boat people” and inaccurate historical context for the victims of the Pol Pot atrocities, and raise you the following, you Norm Podheretz Cliff’s Notes of History flunk-ee.
First, as a direct result of our piss poor planning and ill-conceived occupation of Iraq, we have the following dispatch from Jordan (H/T to Peterr for the link) and a very large number of other nations in the Middle East who are facing the same refugee/humanitarian crisis of our making and subsequent internal destabilization. To wit:
…grave concern regarding the massive displacement of Iraqis, the third-largest displaced population in the world and the fastest growing refugee population….
“Tension is rising among host communities, oversaturated with displaced populations, who, themselves, lack access to basic services, and Iraqi refugees angered by their deteriorating living condition. The destabilising nature of large refugee flows, the need to enrol children in school… and the skewing of sectarian balances in host countries may very well lead to a breakdown of law and order in the host countries,” the congressman warned in his letter.
The letter to Rice included that despite this, “Jordan has not seen significantly increased economic assistance from its top ally – the United States – to fund its schools, hospitals and public infrastructure”.
And, back here at home, almost two years after Katrina, we are still hearing and reading stories like this:
The first morning of my visit to Scenic Trails, I was walking the path between some trailers when I bumped into a man named Tim Szepek. He was young, tall, and solidly good-looking. I asked if I could speak to him for a moment and he agreed. We found a spot of shade beneath a tree, and I started with what I considered a casual warm-up.
“What’s it like to live around here?” I asked.
“Well,” he replied, “I’ll be honest.”
“Ain’t a day goes by when I don’t think about killing myself.”
And so began my time in Scenic Trails, a FEMA trailer park deep in the Mississippi woods where 100 families have lived in near isolation for close to two years.
Though Szepek was the first resident to tell me he wanted to commit suicide, he certainly wasn’t the last. The day I spoke with him, three other residents confided the same….
And stories like this. And this. And this. And this. And all of these…and it just goes on and on. Stop clowning around, George — these are other people’s lives you are playing with…and no photo-op in the world erases the fact that you are a craptastic failure.
(Photo of President Bush clowning around with a keg of herring via Guardian/UK — photo by Herribert Proepper/AP.)
Related posts:
- Stage-Three-Cancer Arkansan Hasn’t Seen Doctor in 7 Years
- World Economy Finding a Bottom Because the Keynesians are in China
- John Kyl and Richard Perle: Nuclear Weapons Keep the World Safe, Except When People We Don’t Like Have Them
- Benedict’s Challenging Words to Congress and the World: Aid the Poor
- Supreme Court: By Fighting Lost Battle, GOP Sets Stage for Future Wars





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Christy!
Yea Christy!
2?
OK, dos…
singles
Richmond, my man. I see we in this daily (rat)race again…*g*
hi christy
Hella picture…
This man has come in and trashed the place…hm…where have I heard THAT before?
And the scary thing is Rudy could be very well be our next prez. Or Fred or Mitt. Take your pick. It will be interesting to see how many of those eligible to vote in 2008, actually do so.
Re: war, internal destabilization; calls for partition by a few candidates:
EPU’d from last thread:
Biodun @ 162
Still the irresponsible frat boy.
Jack Jacobs said on MSNBC that Cambodia’s killing fields had nothing to do with our leaving VietNam.
Bush doesn’t remember Vietnam ’cause he was drunk and stoopid…and MIAlabama.
The Preznit’s Katrina Advisor, his mother, said that things were really working out well for the people of New Orleans. He may still think that’s true. I’m sure he doesn’t feel that it’s his fault.
OT..
Bush’s ‘parting gift to the coal industry’
WASHINGTON: The Bush administration is set to issue a regulation on Friday that would extend the coal mining practice of mountaintop removal. The technique involves blasting off the tops of mountains and dumping the rubble into valleys and streams.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/23/europe/coal.php
Is that Angela Merkel with Chimpy in the picture?
Gnome de Plume @ 12
I think vicious belongs in your description.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 10
I have a hard time seeing the Repugs go for Romney — I honestly think the fact that he’s a Mormon will hurt his chances among the 25% fundies. Anyway, he’s so far down in the polls its ridiculous. Thompson’s got too many problems besides his background — he also just looks like he’s gonna keel over any second. Guiliani is a distinct possibility, because I think there’s enough “blue dog” voters who might go for him over Clinton, for example.
We’ll see, won’t we?
It’s time for the people of America to take back their country. Participate!
OKK:
I can assure you ain’t no way in hell he could be the next prez. I can assure you. Wanna bet?
Biodun @ 16
Looks like it. Wonder if this was before or after the luvvy massage she got?
These are the signs I put up yesterday:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..sting.html
Free Speech: Use it or Lose it.
George has accomplished precisely what he wanted to: he has become the ‘elected’ absolutist monarch of the U.S., the purveyor of eternal war, and the hope of the community awaiting Armageddon and their ascension into Heaven. The Executive Branch is entirely under his command, with principled careerists being eliminated and replaced with political agents. The Legislative Branch is useful only for their ability to pass funding bills; any of their other efforts are revised or ignored at will by Executive Orders (dictatorial decrees, in any other context). The Judicial Branch has been packed: appeal is difficult or impossible at this point. We won’t even talk about the Fourth Branch, that avowed insanity and obscene gesture to the country.
No, George has done very well for himself. His Daddy has much to be proud of, for all the lack of genteel qualities shown by the characters his flawed son associates with.
The money quote from digby after quoting something horribly Podhoretzic:
I also seem to recall that we left VietNam and none of the “followed us here.” I can’t recall a single case of having to fight the VietCong over here because we chose to stop fighting them over there. Jeebus! These people are so stupid, it’s hard to separate their incompetence from their philosophical ineptitude from their pathological inability to tell the truth. Can we PLEASE move the elections forward?
If the President’s misuse of the lessons of Vietnam sounds familiar, it should. After all, just last week 2008 Republican White House frontrunner Rudy Giuliani said virtually the same thing.
“America must remember one of the lessons of the Vietnam War. Then, as now, we fought a war with the wrong strategy for several years. And then, as now, we corrected course and began to show real progress. Many historians today believe that by about 1972 we and our South Vietnamese partners had succeeded in defeating the Vietcong insurgency and in setting South Vietnam on a path to political self-sufficiency. But America then withdrew its support, allowing the communist North to conquer the South…The consequences of abandoning Iraq would be worse.”
For the details, see:
“Bush, Giuliani Agree on Iraq-Vietnam Parallels.”
“Be Your Own Hero Vote!” Mary McCurnin
Ill conceived stage? Hell, most of the time I feel like I am in a Fallini movie on steroids.
Sorry, good morning, Christy.
Biodun @ 20
No.
And I left out the economic rule of corporations, witness his unilateral statement that children could not be permitted to have health care unless the private insurers maintained their market share and the families paid at least as much as they would pay to a private insurer. That statement snatches away from Congress the privilege of setting the operating laws of our country and also shows a coldness that would be hard to match outside of 19th century industrial hellholes.
I am beginning to believe that chaos is the goal. It makes it so much easier to sack, loot, and control when people are preoccupied with disasters, here and abroad. Time to pay attention to the man behind the curtain.
alexandriacynic @ 25
They tried, but were single-handedly stopped by Captain Wild Bill Kelso.
Regarding Bush’s sudden support of Maliki – it is being reported that Bush’s statement of support in yesterday’s address was a last-minute addition. We know that Levin and Hillary have called for Maliki’s removal. We also know that the surge has failed (to bring about political progress).
Here is how I see this playing out: Bush continuies to express support for Maliki. Democrats increase their call for his ouster. Bush “relents” to the Dems after the Sept report, saying that a change of plan is needed, knowing that he has really wanted Maliki gone the whole time. He supoprts another Alawi term as president. Now, poof, we need another Friedman Unit to see if the plan worked.
This brings us right up to the Nov elections.
behindthefall @ 23
His Daddy weeps when he thinks about how W. may have screwed things for Jeb.
Laura Doty @ 31
It makes you wonder, doesn’t it? It’s so irrational as to beg any kind of real understanding of it. I also think Digby’s quote is spot on.
Aggghhh! Prozac Nation! :-P
Speaking of which, who is the new Katrina Czar going to be now that Rove’s leaving?
Bush is a clown.
BobbyG @ 33
Ever read the SLA manifesto?
“a Fallini movie on steroids.”
I love Federico Fellini’s stuff. ;0)
Badwater @ 34
Aah, but just think of all the POWER Jeb’d have if he were to get in, and as a Veep he’d get his very own branch of government with no oversight (as though such a thing existed any more)!
Biodun @ 11
I’m not clear on your point. Are you saying the merits are debatable? It’s a measure of the psychosis of this country that we even feel we can publicly broach the idea of “partition” without any reference to the history of the depraved concept, and with this O’Hanlonesque (another proponent, I believe) attitude that it’s some kind of policy we could feasibly enact through some sanitary, technocratic means. And “complicated” is quite an understatement — if it were coming out of someone else’s mouth I’d regard it as a cynical euphemism. That it’s “complicated” is also argument enough that we should be anywhere near it.
And more importantly than this argument about means and morals, let’s not be naive, as “liberal hawks” would like us to be. It’s an Israeli project. They already have a big stake in Kurdistan as a means to achieving partition. PNACer’s have even drawn up a fantasy map of a “future Iran” that shows a nonexistent Iraq alongside it (I’m sorry I don’t have a link).
Bush’s Vietnam speech is a concession speech.
I think Bush has just conceded that he has lost the political battle on the Iraq war.
There is no immediate political advantage to him — and he has done nothing for the greater good, only for political advantage — in scolding Americans for not wanting to fight his war.
The only rationale can be creating a “Who lost Iraq” rallying point for his neocon troops in the future.
Badwater @ 34
Remember that Rove has remarked recently that he and Poppy have occasional, lighthearted conversations about politics….
alexandriacynic @ 25
Doonesbury is dealing with that topic this week. One of the terrorists followed Ray home to America. He’s still looking for a cheap motel to stay in.
EPU’d from prior thread:
First, I’m not saying the US or anyone else should divvy it up.
I don’t think fragmentation can be prevented, nor do I think the US should be in the middle of it. The fact that we’re arming all the dogs in the fight indicates that the conflict there is going to go on for a very long time.
Also, the country may not fragment into three distinct entities — I think it’s more likely to disintegrate into tribes.
Frank Probst @ 36
Perhaps it will not matter. ;0)
Frank Probst @ 36
Is Claude Allen’s probation over?
Bones, Blood, Hearts and Minds are the price of oil and regime change in Iraq. All the while Americans keep their pedals to the metal and heads in the clouds.
We are a nation in greedlock.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
After Saddam and the destruction of Iraq…who is safer?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/articles/A58648-2005Feb2.html
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/08/08/uk16614.htm
montag @ 43
Seems I read somewhere that Poppy fired Karl years ago during Bush I’s campaign? Perhaps I’m wrong on this.
Please don’t bring that up. The last thing I need is a Bush speech on how we should never have “cut and run” from Symbionia.
Junior visited Minnesota this week to help raise $ for Norm Coleman after meeting with Gov Pawlenty promising ‘a flood of help’ for our state. This after several people just died in southeast MN floods.
I suuport Babs for the new Katrina Czar.
Frank Probst @ 51
Yer killin me over here!~
Ain’t no way Romney could be prez neither. Simply put, most Americans aren’t ready for a Mormon prez. It’s not politically correct. But it’s a fact.
Oh for God’s sake…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
Ah, that was just business. Rove did one of his dirty-tricks ratfuckings on one of Poppy’s long-time friends, because Rove thought the guy was getting a bit too much of consulting fee pie.
If Poppy thinks Rove is the only way to get Jeb into office before he strokes out, he’ll bankroll the operation. After all, Rove got Poppy’s drunken ne’er-do-well son elected four times….
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
Bless her little black heart.
Laura Doty @ 31
Laura — I think you may be on to something. Sometimes it bad to have too much ammunition–you end up tossing a grenade here and emptying a full clip there and dropping a bomb every once in a while but with no sense of strategy. We keep knocking the cronies down but it’s like whack-a-mole. Others pop up. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to characterize the screw-ups and bad acts into no more the four or five categories. The ones that come to my mind are 1) theft and war profiteering; 2) hiring and firing based on political/religious loyalty instead of competence; 3) sexual misbehavior by hypocrites; 4) intentional violation of the constitution and the bill of rights; 5) abuse of the public airwaves for partisan gain. I’m sure there are more and better, but that’s a start.
The kids are back from assembly. Have to go to work and try and make a contribution. I’m doing triangles again today. Just like everyday. Later it will be polynomial eq’s.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
You are correct. He was fired for leaking to Novak.
Deja Moo(the feeling that you’ve heard this bullshit before).
Biodun @ 55
What did you expect?
peanutbutter @ 21
That has to be before. Merkel probably gave him a wide berth after that for the rest of the meeting.
Biodun @ 56
Really? What about that “draft” part? And why the fuck can’t ANYONE in the media even bring up the topic of the draft when Bush and friends start talking about Viet Nam?
Bush & Cheney can’t make money with a draft, can he?
Frank Probst @ 63
You know, I bet they do but then the media doesn’t report it. Wouldnt’ surprise me a bit.
Biodun @11:
As far as the merits go, an example of partition more relevant than Poland would be the one the Western powers attempted on Turkey proper (as opposed to the partitions of the Ottoman Empire). It created the conditions that led to the Armenian genocide.
you know, the democrats have to start asking the question to get the dialogue initiated;
“what has happened to the president’s mental capacity?”
we need to compare his speech and manerism when running for governer against those manerisms today
we need to get the public aware this man’s mental capacity has deminished
we need the dialogue to begin
alexandriacynic @ 59
Yes, follow the threads of the web…to find the spider.
Frank Probst @ 63
[clutching pearls] “Why, that would be impolite! That would be [gasp!] advocacy journalism!”
Hillary is being set up to have no choice but to reinstitute the draft.
yet this is still on topic,
though EPUed from downstairs:
Failure has been an integral part of the cheneybu$hco strategy
OR
as AK says ‘It’s about the OIL, dummy!’,to himself (too):
see this
for this:
yellowdog jim @ 175
Shorter Alex Chadwick on NPR morning west coast – if we train the army to shoot into schools and mosques better, the surge will work better too…? WTF?
NPR – “Nuke ‘em until they glow, so we can shoot ‘em in the dark”
brendan @ 42:
The gist of my comment is that we simply don’t know how the partition of Iraq would play out. The breakup of Yugoslavia has more or less succeeded, but after considerable bloodshed. (I know Kososvo is unresolved 100 percent. But it will be soon enough.)
Laura Doty @ 32
Laura, a dear friend Peggy Gish (with the Christian Peace Maker Team)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4066835.stm
was in Iraq before the invasion and after for four years. The CPT team began interviewing and documenting reports from prionsers released and family members of prisoners from Abu Gharib in July of 2003. These reports were offered to the U.S. military and some of these reports were used by Seymour Hersh in his article about Abu Gharib.
After Peggy’s first few trips into Iraq she came back saying that many of the Iraqi people firmly believe that chaos and destruction is exactly what the right wing radicals wanted in Iraq. ( Podheretz, Wolfowitz, and Micheal Ledeens “creative destruction” strategies were in the works)
These radicals are obviously not idiots. How else can one explain their refusal to listen to many experts( Zbigniew Brzinski, Madeline Albright, Robert Mc Namara, General Wesley Clark, Former Vice President Al Gore, General Zinni, General Swarzkopf, Scott Ritter, Iaea’s El Baradei, Kofi Anan etc, etc. who all warned against the invasion.
How can you explain the lack of troops sent to maintain any kind of peace. How can you explain the lack of protection of Iraqi historical museums after the invasion. It as if the neo-cons wanted the history and integrity of Iraq to be destroyed.
More ability to conduct the regime change agenda of PNAC
http://www.newamericancentury.org/ and “The Clean Break a New Strategy for Securing the Realm”
http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm
Fiore animated cartoon on New Orleans
Sheesh. They didn’t even bother to fix the latest NIE. Isn’t bad news supposed to be classified?
Frank Probst @ 78
You don’t understand. This IS the cleaned up, good news version.
Frank Probst @ 78
Maybe the NIE ISN’T the bad news…
yellowdog jim @ 72
That’s a great round-up, yellowdog jim. I chimed in, too with some oft overlooked tidbits.
kathleen, Laura Doty:
Chaos is not a goal, but it’s a tolerable outcome for them. The optimal outcome would have been a quiescent vassal state pumping its oil through an Israeli pipeline, with a vaguely Israeli-looking flag.
Frank — This is the cleaned-up version. And hence, the panic attack Ari Fleischer roust up the usual wingnuts campaign…
Bush has come out in favor of continuing not only the war in Iraq- but the war in Viet Nam as well.
It’s been reported previously that he has long been one of the bitter enders on Viet Nam- thinking that politicians undercut victory by forcing a pull out- but now he’s gone public with this view..
This is NOT mainstream- the man’s a deep fried radical- and should be painted that way..
“Sure the prez isn’t willing to withdraw from Iraq- he doesn’t even think we should have withdrawn from Viet Nam”.
Get some scholars on teevee to point out what an idiot he is!!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 82
Heh. You owe me a coke. :)
Biodun @ 75
The gist of my comment is that you haven’t been skeptical enough and haven’t thought about the provenance of this idea.
The GOP will participate in the December 21, 2008 Presidential Elections. What a bunch of stupid idiots!
LINK
brendan @ 67
Agreed. As far as Kurdistan: No one, not US, Russia, Syria, Jordan, and especially Turkey, wants to see an independent Kurdistan. The latter three don’t want the Kurds within their own borders start to get secession ideas.
We should outsource the peace to the UN. I bet they would do it for only $6B a week.
kathleen @ 76
Yes. And this is how Cheney’s ‘92 interview makes sense. They created a quagmire KNOWING it would be a quagmire. Because it served their purposes.
Biodun @ 55
Personnaly, I’m not ready for a president who believes in god, period. Look what the last believer brought us.
The “divide it up” idea has some appeal- and also some problems..
We aren’t good at manufacturing even ONE new state–how good would we be at engineering three?
It ain’t our country- can we come before the Iraqi people and say “We’ve decided in our infinite wisdom that it will be better if we destroy your nation”?
It doesn’t divide up as neatly as some may think. Baghdad, for example, is nearly a microcosm of the whole country- with all sects reporesented- who gets it?
The current wholesale division into sunni, shiite, and kurd groups is not the way things have been historically- the divisions historically are smaller- tribabl divisions. This is a bit new- to commit major surgery based on these divisions be way to “gross” . If the surgery is not done properly- all of the siamese triplets will die.
N=1 @ 81
yours are valuable comments and it’s great having them included.
i was trying not to exceed the fdl filters’ link limitations.
and thanks for your compliment.
i feel i learned somethings from you guys last night.
needed to share.
Thanks N=1 !
AZ Matt @ 85
I’m sorry to admit that the math-challenged Cole is my congressman. :(
realworld at 90 — Guess Jimmy Carter would be right out for you then, eh realworld? Don’t visit the sins of the Bush Administration on all people of faith. It’s not a fair comparison — not by a long shot…
From Josh Marshall:
Barbour Griffith & Rogers has long been a powerhouse GOP lobbying firm. Now, apparently, American politics are just too small-time. BGR, according to a report by IraqSlogger’s Christina Davidson, is trying to influence Iraqi politics as well.
But frustration alone doesn’t get governments to fall. That’s where BGR comes in. On August 17, the firm purchased the domain name Allawi-For-Iraq.com (the site’s not yet live). Following publication of the op-ed, Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) called on the Iraqi parliament to hold a no-confidence vote on Maliki. BGR circulated Levin’s comments around Washington — and particularly to Congressional staffers — using the e-mail address DrAyadAllawi@Allawi-for-Iraq.com.
Taking a break from flea dipping cats (actually, Cat #2 imposed the break by disappearing).
A funny for today (parody article).
Wil Wheaton Indicted for Role in Robot Fighting Ring
realworld @ 91
Bush only pretends to believe because Rove knew it would lock up votes.
brendan:
Strictly speaking, do you really know how all the necessities and contingencies of history will/can play out in every respect? I mean, we can all develop scenarios using this or that factor to subvent notions or vice-versa. Every war brings unforseen contingencies out of necessities. This is what BushCo failed to realize wrt to going into Iraq in 2003.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 95
i’m a faith-y folk who does not believe in God:
i’m a Buddhist.
Which should Not matter one way or the other whether or not i got to run the government.
There are lots of other reasons why i should not.
Like, Christy should.
Hello.
alexandriacynic @ 25
That is such a great point for Bush’s new Vietnam/Iraq comparison.
Don’t think we’ve ever had a president who didn’t at least pretend to be some variety of christian (although Jefferson came pretty close). Don’t think we ever will. Something like 90% of the public says that they believe in God and the majority claim to be christian.
Don’t hold your breath for the first openly atheist president.
Brisingamen @ 46
But the U.S. is, as you say, “in the middle of it” and “arming all the dogs in the fight” (a Jim Baker quote about Yugoslavia, by the way), so, in fact, it’s not unreasonable to conclude we are trying to “divvy it up”.
And as for your last sentence, do you have an expert basis for believing this? Because it sounds to me — don’t take offensive, I’ve been brainwashed into saying worse things before –
[Mod: Edited to remove personal remark. Let’s keep it about the ideas, shall we?]
And you don’t even address my point about the Israelis. Don’t you get it? The reason I’m being so vehement about this is this is precisely the kind of blithe pseudo-academic argumentation we heard from “liberal hawks” before the invasion of Iraq.
Biodun @ 99
quite the contrary, bush knew this would turn into a quaqmire, he knew the insurgency would be impossible to contain, he knew he would be destabalizing the middle east
this is the plan of the pnac, they wanted to steal and this is the way they accomplished their robbery
the greatest robbery in the history of planet earth, they have not only stolen the treasure of Iraq, they have stolen the treasure of the wealthies country in the history of planet earth, the investments from the American middle class
Ed*ard Teller @ 73
Will listen to this comment by Alex Chadwick. A bit surprised. Chadwick in one of the few MSMer’s who I have heard actually challenge the unsubstantiated claims being endlessly repeated by the rwr (right wing radicals) about Iran. I have also heard Diane Rehm and Chris Matthews challenge these unsubstantiated claims. Either the war creeps (Frum, Kristol,etc.), are not being invited on Matthews show or they will not come on.
I wonder when Matthews or those who control the programming at MSNBC will focus on the situation in New Orleans again? It was Matthews who said that “Katrina had ripped the scab off of racism and poverty in our nation”
MSNBC coverage of the destruction along the gulf coast and in New Orleans as a result of Katrina lasted about two weeks.
MSNBC has certainly helped put the scab right back on these critical issues.
ccmask @ 95
That is what I was referencing in my 34.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 95
But, Jimmy Carter was sane. He never claimed that God talked to him…
brendan @ 82
Philip Weiss is dealing with this nuttiness today, looking a little more closely at Ari Fleischer’s recent backers, “Freedom’s Watch.”
Weiss, observing Fleischer in Cincinnati:
Fleischer made explicit pro-Israel appeals. He said that his mother was a Democrat who opposed Bush but had softened because the Iraq war had been good for Israel’s security. He said that he was proud of the fact that in all his statements on Israel/Palestine while White House press secretary, he had never used the term “cycle of violence.” I.e., he masked the endless brutalization there, as if Israel is getting somewhere by bulldozing houses and performing messy assassinations that kill little children, too.
Lahoma @ 101
HELLO back!!!!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 95
Not saying I won’t support a religious candidate. None of them will at least say they are not religious but I would much rather have one who wasn’t. I think Carter did some real damage with his introduction of personal religion when he ran against Kennedy. So yes, I’ve never been a fan of Carter. I think he contributed to the road we are now on. Is he a good person. Yes. Should religion have a role in politics. No. Different questions.
i’m a faith-y folk who does not believe in God:
i’m a Buddhist.
there it is
Lahoma @ 99
Hello, Lahoma. I take it that you are Oklahoma Kiddo’s better half?
Lahoma @ 101
O’siyo!
brendan:
Israel would like to see Kurdistan? Linky please?
Hi!
think progress has some of the nie
yellowdog jim @ 98
When people asked me that question, I used to say, “Druid Reformed–we only worship shrubs.”
God damn Bush for utterly spoiling that joke forever….
Governor Palin to Alaskans – fugedabout a bridge to Gravina Island in Ketchikan. The money will never be there. Get used to the ferry. No link – on the radio.
Dan Abrams.
Seymour Hersch reported years ago that Cheney had been told by Israelis within months of the Iraq invasion:
“You’ve already lost the war- the only question is how much humiliation you are willing to endure” “For our part- we are busy arming and training the Kurds”
This made is sound as if the Israelis would welcome a Kurdistan- or at least the struggle to obtain one—
Here’s some really important OT stuff from the ATL
Mods: Please take us out of bold. From 100 on. [Mod: See if that’s more refreshing for you now]
realworld @ 111
Carter never tried to foist his religion on the rest of us, unlike the Bush gang. Remember that whole business of carter saying “I sinned in my heart” – thought of other women) well for Bush it made no difference if it was in his heart (thinking of doing something) or actually doing it. Huge difference there. For Bush it was “direct channel” God, full speed ahead to the Rapture, the rest of us be damned.
Ed*ard Teller @ 119
you know I am not so certain that bridge is such a bad idea
if it were a toll bridge and if it was based on developement for an undeveloped island I beleive it could represent positive return
however if it was just for the existing inhabitants with no plan for development then it is of course rediculous
yellowdog jim @ 100
i tried to edit my comment;
screwed up my “” tag;
turned the whole rest of thread BOLD;
now hanging my head in HTML shame
(not really, too much.)
Bless our patient moderators, wherever they are.
[Mod: We still love you.]
Biodun @ 98
Of course not. And people like Biden and O’Hanlon know even less, which is why we should dare to presume to “fix” the problem we’ve created by drawing new lines on maps, or facilitating such redrawings.
But that’s an academic argument. My more important point is that you’re ignoring the context of this clean and innocent sounding (to a historical illiterate like Biden or O’Hanlon, that is) word “partition”. It’s a genocidal plan for dominating the region. You’re being naive, exasperatingly so, when you say they didn’t account for unforeseen contingencies. As I said up above, they didn’t “want” chaos, but, listen closely here, they preferred it to the Iraqi state. The disbandment of the Iraqi army was something Bush I, Scowcroft and the others never would have done. But Wolfowitz and Feith did it, and not because they’re the dummies you think they are.
IS it just me, or is everyone’s post all in boldface?
JF @ 34
Sorry I missed this. Something tells me Maliki is going to suffer a severe accidental death.
IrishJim @ 127
I logged out and in and it’s ok.
brendan @ 86
I agree with Brendan. The operating unstated model for Iraq was always the Israeli Occupation of Palestine, which is messy but has managed to survive now for 40 years. Problem with that model is that the Iraqi’s had a real state before they got invaded, and have maintained organizations through the Occupation, though divided and competitive.
The misjudgment of people who unthinkingly thought this adventure would be like the Annexation of the American Southwest is breath-taking.
Biodun — It’s already done. Please refresh your whole page.
Refresh the whole page, the bold should be fixed now, thanks.
rwcole @ 121
linkeroo please?
raven @ 121
So it’s basically an anti-crack statute?
Brendan @126- I agree with you that it was in part volitional. They wanted a chaotic Middle East in which Isr*el would shine as a beacon, and the US could ride in on white horses to put the place in order and keep the “everlasting” peace (until Rature time” when a bigger white hat would be riding in).
Biodun @ 123
sorry.
my error.
brendan @ 104
Look, I know the Criminal-in-Chief and his cronies did this to aid Israel. That ain’t news. I’m not happy that the current Mal-Administration is scattering money and arms throughout this region with great abandon.
The history of the ME has always been tribal, so suggesting that it’s going to break down along those lines is following the historical trend. Where you get the idea that this is racism puzzles me. If the conclusion I reach from reading history is wrong, I have no problem with being corrected.
MayDaze @ 134
*g*
MayDaze @ 135
don’t mind the boxers sticking out but LOVE the thongs
I would vote against this guy even if he were a democrat, I miss thongerage
brendan @ 127:
You want me to believe that the neocons planned the contingencies that came out of (that’s still coming out of) the Iraqi invasion and occupation?
Brisingamen @ 137
The history of the ME has NOT been “tribal,” its history is one of complex and large empires with striking stability over the long haul.
Biodun @ 141
I believe the wanted do disrupt the middle east, I don’t think they knew how much it might disrupt America and I don’t think they knew how much hate they would breed among their own party
never the less, they had this unrest planned…do some research on the pnac
The Lurking Mod @ 133
thanks again (sheepishly).
Richmond @ 135
That’s not quite what I said. Their Plan A was flower showers and Israeli piplelines, but they did have a plan B, which was chaos.
raven @ 121
Wearing a “sports bra” or showing a bra strap would be illegal..
egregious @ 114
I see you too.
perris @ 125
Vashon Island and most of the San Juan Islands in Puget Sound have developed quite well over the years without bridges. Once you put the bridge into an island, it no longer really is one. I could name 150 intersections around Alaska that don’t have left-turn lanes, where people get killed regularly, where road improvements are being held hostage to these humongous bridge and/or access to development property projects that will enrich a very few.
Ed*ard Teller @ 109
It is simply criminal that Ari Fleisher is still walking free after outing a CIA agent whose job it was was to follow the path of WMD’s. Fleisher is a clear traitor and why is it that he received immunity.
Can he still be impeached so that he can not ever roll back into another administration?
Amazing that the Neo, theo, oil and defense cons have been successful at lying us into an unnecessary war, outed a CIA agent, and are still pushing hard for a military strike on Iran with minimal consequences to their own lives.
Here is what A*P*C is doing for U.S. National Security right now, relentlessly pushing for a confrontation with Iran.
http://www.aipac.org/
MayDaze @ 113
That is so.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 95
I’m not sure I understand why realworld needs to be challenged in the opinion that he’she’s “not ready for a president that believes in god, period. Look at what the last believer brought us.”
This is a valid point of view espoused by many people.
Can we not question the role of religion in the current quagmire we find ourselves?
About this I’m not convinced enough at this point… This assumes the pliancy of the people of the Middle East (sans Israel).
Lahoma @ 150
Welcome to the Lake!
Biodun @ 140
I think they wanted the chaos. I’m not sure they realized all the ramiifications, or realized how cold the whole thing is to real, non sociopathic, people…
Why is everyone so ornery and touchy?
My better half asked me about my anger today.
I said it was righteous anger at my party for being enablers of the Iraq quagire.
She replied that righteous or not I was acting like gwb in expecting everything to work out so
unrealistically.
Let’s all project less criticism and more tolerance.
Wise woman, my wife.
(This in response to the anger I feel is being projected lately around here. Let’s face it. We are all frustrated at present. Let’s not take it out on each other, please?)
Fresh thread, up and running for everyone…
Steve-AR @ 146
Sounds like a problem that a burqa would solve. The American Taleban is alive and well and living in Georgia.
OK, new thread upstairs…no bolds, all fresh & clean…
One problem applying the lessons of Vietnam is that we’ve never been told the truth about how we were sucked into the civil war there…
The Kennedy Administration knocked off the Diem regime one week after this report appeared.
We’ve been lead to believe that Diem was removed because his gov’t was murderously autocratic, which it certainly was.
However, Diem was beginning to negotiate a settlement with the North that could have resulted in the Americans being asked to depart, ensuring his removal.
perris @ 143
They clearly knew about the hatred and violence that would take place. I firmly believe this. These are not stupid people.
Arrogant, narcissistic, socio- paths? yes! Stupid… no.
perris @ 142
Biodun: No, of course they didn’t plan all the contingencies. But they did consciously disband the Iraqi army (google Wolfowitz, Feith, Bremer, November 2003, Washington Post). Isn’t that enough to get you thinking that maybe a power vacuum was something they wanted to create so that the presence of our military would be necessary. Isn’t the Israeli presence in Kurdistan and Wolfowitz’s association with it enough to set the bells ringing when you hear the word “partition”? You act as if the conscious creation of choas, the deliberate dismantlement of states were some improbably fiendish new experiment. It’s what great powers have often done to exert power, precisely because they know their own financial and military limitations.
Police accused of using provocateurs at summit
Aug 21, 2007 09:14 PM
Canadian Press
OTTAWA – Protesters are accusing police of using undercover agents to provoke violent confrontations at the North American leaders’ summit in Montebello, Que……
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/248608
Damn, watch the youtube video available in article.
Plan “A” from what I can tell was to take control of the oil fields and dispand the army so they could not mount a counter attack. The “shock and awe” was supposed to scare everyone else into compliance. That is not a Plan (remember they forbade the State Department to do a real Plan for the aftermath). As with Katrina, they had no viable plan to make the place functional again.
brendan @ 145
Oil Pipelines to Israel
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/…..-coop.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq…..50,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/p…..mNo=332835
Don’t use the partition of Poland as an example for Irak, because it was a real country – unified, with a real government – long before anyone wanted to ‘partition’ it (back to about the year 1000).
Lahoma @ 101
Hello, Lahoma! I’ve been hoping you’d join us at the lake.
Welcome!
FunnyDiva
Boston1775 @ 151
This war has been driven by dueling theologies with death always an option.
That photo brings back memories:
http://wonkette.com/politics/n…..214749.php
Supposedly, James Baker told Junya that “everybody hates him” and that “he’s no leader, just a cheerleader.”
And finally, Baker told W to ignore Cheney. I’m assuming that’s regarding foreign policy discussions. W may, in fact, be doing that (witness the Vietnam idiocy).
But now, with Rove (officially) gone, the clusterfuckery out of the Oval Office is going to get increasingly out of control. I’m thinking of another parallel to Vietnam when Kissinger found a plastered Nixon wandering the halls of the West Wing conversing with the Presidential portraits.
Are we about to see another President lose it?
Biodun @ 120
When I had the chance to talk with Matthews at the Libby trial. I mentioned that he was one of the only MSMer’s that I had heard whisper that the A*P*C espionage trial had been delayed for the sixth time. When I asked him why this investigation and trial had barely been scratched by the MSM he said “I do not control the programming of MSNBC”.
moderator @104:
I didn’t say he was “racist” and no one else here but you interpreted it that way, including Biodun. I’m saying the argument that Iraq is a bunch of tribes has a racist pedigree.
P J Evans @ 165
The 1939 partition of Poland was of a state that had only existed since 1918. It had previously been partitioned (out of existence) in 1794. I used it as an example precisely because it was declared illegitimate (a “bastard”, indeed) by both the Germans and Russians. I see a parallel here to the supposed illegitimacy of the post-Ottoman Iraq.
Boston at 165 — We absolutely can challenge the misuse of religion in politics. But realworld made a statement that was open-ended and absolute about religion. And, to be perfectly honest, I get a LOT of e-mails from decent people of faith who read here about religion bashing in the threads that starts just that way with an innocuous comment and then starts a cascade of religious castigation.
My point was, and I think it was a clear one, that the problems that the Bush Administration has injected into public policy via a misuse of religion as a tool for wedging and otherwise is not something that all people of faith do. And that if we are going to discuss the issue, then we ought to do so accurately — and not as a glossed-over stereotype, any more than I would want someone coming here and stereotyping all athiests in a certain way.
It’s not accurate. And, as such, it deserved a question — because, frankly, I had one about it. If we’ve reached a point where even asking people to back up their assumptions is inappropriate in the threads, then we’re having a problem.
brendan (if you’re still here):
I guess what I’m saying is I don’t think they had a Plan B.
(We’re in EPU territory here.)
P J Evans @ 165
The three partitions of Poland in the 18th century would be good examples, too, as the great powers justified themselves by claiming to intervene in the interest of stability…and even religious freedom.
Biodun @ 173
I’m overstating the case when I say “Plan B”. They didn’t have a “plan”, but at every step in the distingration of the country their default behavior was to take autonomy from the Iraqis. Also, to repeat, the biggest contributor to chaos was the disbanding of the Iraqi army, which was a conscious decision taken for precisely the opposite reason Bush I kept it intact (the Wolfowitz-Feith decision in 2003). That, more than anything else, is the evidence for my argument.
I think I’ve made my argument clear: this “partition” notion is not as innocent and disinterested as you take it to be. Think, too, about the Israeli connections. The idea should be countered forcefully so that it doesn’t gain respectability. I hope that, unlike the moderator, you haven’t taken my vehemence for venom.
Though Szepek was the first resident to tell me he wanted to commit suicide, he certainly wasn’t the last. The day I spoke with him, three other residents confided the same….
What this story and the ongoing Wall St. subprime mortgage & credit crunch catastrophe is shouting from the rooftops here and around the world is ZERO confidence in the BushCo Government. And Paulson and Bernanke are only saving the banks esp. investment bankers. Communism practiced for the upper 10% as seen with bailout upon bailout. And capitalism for the other 90% “it sucks to be you” serfs.
Just imagine if Bush had gotten his way and privatized Social Security and handed it all over to Wall Street?
Brendan, I think I see why we’re disagreeing. You think I’m calling for formal partition, like the UN did with Palestine.
What I was trying to say is that I think the sectarian violence in Iraq will cause it to fragment into several states, either along ethnic (Kurds) or religious (Shi’a/Sunni) lines.
I think my choice of terms is what is causing the confusion. I’m all for the Iraqis having the government they want, not one imposed from the outside.
peanutbutter @ 66
Somebody did. I think this was one of the so-called “warm, fuzzy softball questions” lobbed by Mike Barnacle on Hardball last night. I hope TRex heard that because, although Mike is soft spoken, I generally like his questions, and I think given in his soft spoken way, they sometimes don’t seem as threatening and get more forthright and direct answers than someone who is in their face would get from the guest. Sometimes the guests are even lulled into not realizing they said more than they wanted to.
brendan:
Although I haven’t really spent a lot of time thinking about this, I actually suspect partition will not work. The Shiites might want it, but as I mentioned before, a lot of forces don’t want a Kurdistan, and the Sunnis mostly don’t want it.
No I did not. I got the racist pedigree drift. And we stayed in the realm of ideas. From reading your comments over the last few months, I’ve gotten to know how you argue by now, so not to worry.
realworld View this users Facebook profile says:
August 23rd, 2007 at 9:21 am
Personnaly, I’m not ready for a president who believes in god, period. Look what the last believer brought us.
Christy Hardin Smith at 172 says:
We absolutely can challenge the misuse of religion in politics. But realworld made a statement that was open-ended and absolute about religion. And, to be perfectly honest, I get a LOT of e-mails from decent people of faith who read here about religion bashing in the threads that starts just that way with an innocuous comment and then starts a cascade of religious castigation.
My point was, and I think it was a clear one, that the problems that the Bush Administration has injected into public policy via a misuse of religion as a tool for wedging and otherwise is not something that all people of faith do. And that if we are going to discuss the issue, then we ought to do so accurately — and not as a glossed-over stereotype, any more than I would want someone coming here and stereotyping all athiests in a certain way.
It’s not accurate. And, as such, it deserved a question — because, frankly, I had one about it. If we’ve reached a point where even asking people to back up their assumptions is inappropriate in the threads, then we’re having a problem.
Boston1775 says:
What is open-ended about stating that one is not ready for a president who believes in god, period. Calling attention to this particular believer is being done today by responsible people with valid concerns.
Belief and government have been so successfully merged in this presidency and others that we have an obligation to not only to question it but work to separate it.
I wonder if you know how many people are sickened by the religious who take unconstitutional payoffs from the White House?
Religion has been thrust upon our politics, and those of us who recognize the enormous damage done to our country have a duty to speak out.
Brendan, you’re still missing my point, which was that Poland had a national existence before anyone else had the idea of partitioning it out of existence, and that that national spirit wasn’t destroyed by partition. It’s why Poland still exists. I don’t see that national spirit in Irak.
P J Evans @ 181
I understood your point. You’re right. Of course it’s not by any means a perfect match. But I take it you understand my points about the cynical justifications resembling each other. I was kind of making a provocative comparison in making the argument: plus ca change…
By the way, I lived in Poland for a few years, speak Polish and have strong ties to the country.
Brisingamen @ 177
That’s what I figured, but the terms are important: the people presenting it as a technocratic solution are actually working at making it happen.
Boston at 180 — So does that exclude people of faith who HAVE been speaking out against it for quite some time, then? Because those folks are religious and faithful, but don’t support the wholesale conversion of state agent action and religious independence. You see what I’m saying? You can’t paint all people of faith as all one way — and doing so alienates some folks who are working along the same lines as you are — but you are dividing them out of the conversation simply because they believe in a god that you may not believe in…that is just as wrong as someone of faith excluding the views of an agnostic because that person believes differently.
Religion is not all one thing, any more than agnostics and/or athiests are all one thing. And you seem to think that only non-religious people are sickened by this WH and their perversion of what it means to be “faithful.” That is far from true, and a lot of them read here every single day, including a LOT of our regulars who do a helluva lot of activist work in their communities and elsewhere. Dividing based on beliefs goes a lot of ways — and what I am saying is that this isn’t something that you can neatly divide — and that we shouldn’t be trying to divide it based on “faith” and “not faith” but instead based on “bad faith actors” and “people with ethics.”
Richmond @ 142
I disagree with the last five words, which I would change to “incidents of extreme violence and oppression, and disregard for human rights.”
Bob in HI
Boston1775 @ 180
Ahem, quotes from one of my favorite patriots, Thomas Paine:
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
AND
Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.
Biodun @ 11
Follow the money!
Thyssen Krupp, Prescott Bush, IG-Farben, Paramount Pictures…
Of course, everybody, for a price is in it?
You know the families who fabric planes? Money?
FED?
Have a nice continuing.
Ptr
brendan @ 183
Ugh — there’s actually a group that wants to do this??!! I managed to miss that somehow. That just stinks.
Hard at work ’round here & no time even to read comments, but had to ask,
is that a keg of red herring, perchance? goodgawd that fella looks stoopid!?!
btw, had a long long talk with a flaming repug this a.m. He’s so mad at dumbya, he could…. [don’t ask].
Actually, he was in angrybabble mode anyway, so I just let him fly, but not without backup.
Everytime he came forth with another broadside agnst administration idiocy, I chimed in to ask if he was aware of . . . . [basically filling in the blanks with proven tidbits like the signing statements, MSM complicity in drumming up Iraq war, absolute insanity of holding lowered taxes and “smaller government” as touted by shrub, up agnst our crumbling bridges, increased danger from potential epidemics because so many people, especially children, are denied proper health care…, messing up our world to the point that our kids, and even their kids, probably have almost no way to dig out of the tattered remains…
yadda yadda yadda
Then I fear I didn’t even let the guy quit the game. He was ready to throw up his hands and give up altogether so I reminded him, “If you don’t even try, you KNOW you’ll fail.”
That hapless, formerly dyed-in-the-sheepwool repug was fairly foaming at the mouth with anger at hisownparty on his way back across the road from our little visit.
Oh, poor thang. He’s so disoriented at this point, he deeply respects Sen. Sherrod Brown (D) and calls Mike DeWine (R, formerly Sen. till Sherrod replaced him) a “twit”, I believe it was…. heh
Thank you Jane, Christy, Pach, and all of you wonderful FDL doggies for empowering me. The pugs are restless and unhappy. Let’s “help” them in whatever way we can, ahem…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 184
I’m not sure where you are finding that I painted all people of faith one way. Any rudimentary study of world religions will tell me that it is not possible to even think about them in one way, never mind paint them.
I was defending a person who said it might be good if the next president did not believe in god at all. I can find merit in that statement. Maybe, if there is no belief in an afterlife, the next president will not be as quick to throw away the current lives of those he/she directly affects. That is a way to defend the statement.
I will be happy to write alongside religious people from all walks of life who recognize that setting up unconstitutional programs adding up to tens and probably hundreds of billions of dollars is immoral, unethical and a perversion of the foundations of this country.
We must eradicate state sponsored religion. Period.
This administration has set aside science and replaced it with religion to the peril of our environment and health, not to mention the assault on our children’s education.
Can’t people express shock, frustration, anger and defiance toward the leaders who did this in the name of religion? Can’t people express shock, frustration, anger and defiance against those who have taken billions of dollars for their own religious faith based programs?
I am expressing it. Bush’s Base is responsible for accepting Americans’ tax dollars to do faith based programs. FAITH BASED PROGRAMS.
Enough
Enough
Enough
Boston1775 – I think this…
…is what Christy had in mind.
newtonusr @ 191
The last believer, if I understand correctly, is George W Bush. Many are studying the religious beliefs of George W Bush.
And many are studying the beliefs of those who took American’s money in the name of Faith Based Programs.
Brisingamen @ 188
I don’t know if there’s “a group”. I’m making a deduction that there are people who want it when it comes out the mouth of Biden. I think Galbraith orginally broached it somewhere respectable. O’Hanlon, a sock puppet, has. I’ve stated the reasons I think neocons want it. It’s up to you to be persuaded or not, or investigate further. I’m just saying alarm bells should go off when you hear the word.
perris @ 105
And the half-trillion dollars pumped out of the suckers in China, who will probably be repaid in either drastically devalued or totally worthless currency.
As thieves, the Bush crowd have a certain skill…..
I just read Siun’s post, linked to by selise on the last thread. I recommend it.
Christy; I’m sorry to get off-topic here, but why is Angela Merkel smiling?
Was this photo taken right after she just got groped by a handsome, studly, faux texas cowboy, who would cheerfully eat her toejam for one regiment of Bundeswehr troops to “visit” Baghdad for a short 15 month tour?
montag @ 57
The guy Rove ratted on…for being a Nazi…was, in fact, a Nazi and a member of Hitler’s bodyguard in WWII. He was Otto Skorzeny, a member of the elite Liebstandarte SS, the group that served as Hitler’s personal bodyguard after he took power in 1933 and the group that was responsible for most of the atrocities against the Russians in Operation Barbarossa in 1941.
Skorzeny was close friends with Bush, Sr. who probably had lots of Nazi friends given the proximity of the rocket scientists brought over under Operation Paperclip who settled in Texas near Randolph Air Force base to work with another war criminal, Werner von Braun, on the US rocket program and later the space program.
brendan @ 183
Maybe if we all just let the created nation of Irak revert to what it was prior to the British fucking with it back in the 20s.
This is just more of our typical American paternalism trying to decide for other groups of people what THEIR county (ies) should look like and whom the administration of said country(ies) should be left to.
I know we think oil is our national security, but our most precious natural resources, our kids, are dying once again for lies and other peoples’ visions of what the world should look like.
I’m fucking disgusted with it. The Democrats need to end this occupation and end it soon. They’ve already lost what little credibility they had wth me with maybe five exceptions, Mo Hinchey, Dennis Kucinich, Maxine Waters, Sheila Jackson-Lee, and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.
The rest of the elected Dems in Washington can kiss my white ass.
perris @ 68
I think that would dissolve the charge that he knowingly did commit various horrendous crimes and that it would allow him to essentially claim ‘insanity’ as a defense. In short, it would let him skip town.
If the American people do NOT punish the Bush administration rather severely, then they will have permanently associated themselves with this horrendous criminality and immorality. We can’t afford to do that. It would mean the end of America.
IrishJim @ 127
I think it must be just you.
When I write a post it’s all CAPS, underlined, in italics and bolded. You know, normal-ish.