Karl Rove's predictions certainly do not come true with the regularity that many a beltway bore would like to ascribe to him, but at least with some frequency he clearly telegraphs his intent. From the WSJ on August 14:
Mr. Rove also said he expects the president's approval rating to rise again, and that conditions in Iraq will improve as the U.S. military surge continues. He said he expects Democrats to be divided this fall in the battle over warrantless wiretapping, while the budget battle -- and a series of presidential vetoes -- should help Republicans gain an edge on spending restraint and taxes. (emphasis mine).
After Bush bullied the Democrats into passing really horrendous FISA legislation (although there is some argument to be made that it's what they really wanted to do anyway, they were just looking for a bit of cover), he made it quite clear that they hadn't gone far enough. Remember what he said when he signed the damn thing?
When Congress returns in September the Intelligence committees and leaders in both parties will need to complete work on the comprehensive reforms requested by Director McConnell, including the important issue of providing meaningful liability protection to those who are alleged to have assisted our Nation following the attacks of September 11, 2001.
Jack Balkin helpfully translated:
Apparently "allegedly helped us stay safe" is Bush Administration code for telecom companies and government officials who participated in a conspiracy to perform illegal surveillance.
Now Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, who we're told pulled a bait-and-switch with House Democrats over the FISA legislation in the first place, says we need...drum roll please:
The issue that we did not address, which has to be addressed is the liability protection for the private sector now is proscriptive, meaning going forward. We've got a retroactive problem. When I went through and briefed the various senators and congressmen, the issue was alright, look, we don't want to work that right now, it's too hard because we want to find out about some issues of the past. So what I recommended to the administration is, 'Let's take that off the table for now and take it up when Congress reconvenes in September.' . . . No, the retroactive liability protection has got to be addressed.
As Glenn Greenwald notes, McConnell has "extensive private sector connections with the very telecommunication companies for which he is now demanding immunity." Granted, something like this is small potatoes next to the gargantuan moral and ethical transgressions perpetrated on a regular basis by members of the Bush administration, but in a rational world it would disqualify him for participation in this discussion.
Says Glenn:
McConnell's ties to these companies are so deep and numerous that it really rises to the level of conflict of interest for him to demand -- on national security grounds, no less -- that they be granted full immunity from liability for past illegal acts. He is, in essence, demanding immunity for vast numbers of his former partners, clients, associates and scores of business interests in which he had, if not still has, a substantial stake. This conflict is glaring and extreme, but Democrats said nothing about it when granting prospective immunity to this industry at his insistence. Thus far, they have also said nothing in the face of McConnell's demands that this immunity now be made retroactive as well.
We know what they're doing to do. We know they're going to do it because they're tired of "various senators and congressmen" who want to "find out about some issues of the past" and they're just not wild about that oversight thing and would really like to hamstring it whenever possible. We know that the very guy who's asking for it has screwed the Democrats in the past, that he can't be trusted and that he is not in a position to ethically be asking for this.
So knowing all these things, it would be great to hear the Democratic leadership get out in front of this thing and contribute one more entry to Karl Rove's legacy of failed predictions.
Update: Bmaz, from the comments:
The issue of telco liability is the biggest freaking red herring I have ever seen. The attempt to get immunity for the telcos is not out of any concern for the telcos. The telcos were given assurances and certifications of legality by the government. The government will owe them indemnification for any resulting liability. This is an absolutely nonsensical issue. The Bushies want to get a measure of immunity for themselves by having the propriety of the telcos upheld through an immunity grant to them, and they also want it to quash the cases that are currently in court (such as those currently being litigated in NDCA District Court and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals) so that their illegal and immoral conduct is not further exposed. Nobody should worry about the poor telcos going bankrupt or anything. This is complete and absolute BS.
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3
2 and Hello Jane.
or two
What does Zed mean?
5?
or three ok 7.
dakine01 @ 4
Dang, Dakine, we’re both off!!!
nice to see the ACLU ad on the best website!
Just a bet.
Rove predicts X.
Some Dem predicts Y.
I’ll place my money on X.
CTuttle @ 8
So’s Millineryman. Guess we just all need to work on our timing.
demo - people
crazy - insane
democrazy - The insane notion that people can be trusted to govern themselves.
(From the modern politician’s handbook)
I would like to see the Democrats ensure that Rove’s future predictions are etched into a cinder block wall with a pilfered spoon.
Those sheep had better not pass that retroactive liability immunity BS!!! I’ll be keeping a close eye on my critters!!!
Everythingseemssoneat @ 5
In earlier versions of the Wordpress software, when no comments were showing on a new post, the first comment would display with the number “zero” and called “zed” (although it would be comment #1 to folks who got here after comments had started). That no longer happens but is still used to signify the first comment for old times sake.
OT a wee bit, but germane to many of our discussions, I present to you:
The Dems don’t have the votes to start undoing this shit..the best we can hope for is to slow it down and expose the criminality. One can only know in retrospect but it is looking like 11/08 may be the last chance to save our Constitutional Democracy.
dakine01- I see. Thank you. I’ve been wondering that for a while.
AT&T is scared and it couldn’t happen to a more deserving group of corporate weenies.
Give ‘em the immunity they seek ONLY if they all agree to quit fighting Net Neutrality for the next 25 years.
dakine01 @ 15
A much coveted ‘prize’, indeed!!! ;-)
barb in montana @ 9
I joined through the link. No promise of a card though.
In otherwords, now they are putting together the structure that the KGB had in place for years….where everyone spied on everyone else, and there was no legal recourse.
We need to turn out this ENTIRE democratic congress. They have sold out all of the Constitution, and it ain’t coming back.
They don’t need any of this stuff to protect American from terror. They need it to prevent political dissent. The Constitution is, in their eyes, just a piece of paper. And as we were saying the other night, shows like Law and Order are just the Government’s propaganda to make people feel that you can’t oppose them.
The Dems need a dose of reality, to wit, no contributions at all from us, the little people. When they wake up and realize that they have no money from the people, they might figure it’s time to reign in these jackbooted faciasts who have taken over the American Government. Bush and his gang certainly aren’t Americans. Seems to me that if you act in a manner that is unconstitutional, because you have packed the courts, you are a traitor. Bottom line. And when they kill all our troops they will try to draft our young people. They might get a huge surprise.
It would be great to hear the Democratic leadership get out in front, but that assumes that there actually is a Democratic leadership. Sadly, that appears to be a mythical entity.
The natives are restless.
Eureka Springs @ 21
If you joined, you should be getting you “card”.
I am card carrying ACLU member 64504856. I carry it next to my concealed carry card. (It’s a long story)
AMDOCS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdocs
Steve-AR @ 25
These days, I’m coming to appreciate that combination.
The issue of telco liability is the biggest freaking red herring I have ever seen. The attempt to get immunity for the telcos is not out of any concern for the telcos. The telcos were given assurances and certifications of legality by the government. The government will owe them indemnification for any resulting liability. This is an absolutely nonsensical issue. The Bushies want to get a measure of immunity for themselves by having the propriety of the telcos upheld through an immunity grant to them, and they also want it to quash the cases that are currently in court (such as those currently being litigated in NDCA District Court and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals) so that their illegal and immoral conduct is not further exposed. Nobody should worry about the poor telcos going bankrupt or anything. This is complete and absolute BS.
the democrats are starTing to PISS me off as much as the repukelcans
I guess they don’t know we are NOT party loyalists, we back democrats becuase they PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION and when they stop they will LOOSE
we have to let them know the fisa provisions they made ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE
and we have to let them know there is NO liability protection for companies that allowed the administration to steal our information
NONE
I want class action status and I want them PUNSIHED
dakine01 @ 19
Nah, put the criminals in jail, and they won’t be able to fight Net Neutrality.
Two birds with one stone, doncha know?
bmaz @ 28
Yup, it’s all about hiding the crimes. No liability, no witnesses.
Mike McConnell, like David Petraeus or for those with longer memories Alberto Gonzales, is another conflicted Administration hack sold to us as a dispassionate, impartial professional. He blew his credibilty on the FISA scam and come January 2009 should be fired. They told us that he was the guy who could ferret out the secrets but the truth is he’s just a weasel on the make.
Just here for a drive-by while I’m working at home, but I read:
Yeah. It would. Does anyone really thing any of the “leadership” (particularly in the Senate) are going to take their thumbs out of where they’re firmly lodged? You would think it would be difficult to “keep your seat” with your thumb there…
Mad Dogs @ 30
I like how ya think…!!!
Eureka Springs @ 21
You’ll get a card. I joined online too.
Mad Dogs @ 16
As a Virginian, I have to disagree with a few points of that analysis (at least from the point of view of Warner; it may well apply to other Repubs.)
It’s a near-certainty that Warner isn’t running for re-election in ‘08. I suspect his statement reflects the fact that he knows how screwed up Iraq is, but he doesn’t want to stir up a storm of wingnut opposition to his chosen successor, Tom Davis. (The wingnuts already don’t trust Davis because he’s from Northern Virginia, so they’ll likely line up behind George Allen — really — if he gets into the race, or failed former Gov. Gilmore if not.)
Anyway, I think this is the reason we are treated to the sad spectacle of a once-proud and highly respected moderate Republican reduced to saying that it would be really nice if the president brought some troops home, but of course it’s not Congress’ place to tell to do that.
Warner is never going to take a principled stand on anything again, at least not until he is safely retired.
(Oh, and the hillbilly dialect isn’t at all appropriate for Warner, who grew up in DC and unlike carpetbagger George Allen, doesn’t pretend to be a southerner.)
The Dems do have the votes, they just need to structure the votes in a way that inaction leads to a Dem victory.
For example, the FISA atrocity has a sunset clause; they can only wiretap freely for six months. After that, they need Congress to pass a new bill. If Congress says no, then we return to the previous law.
Likewise, without the approval of Democrats, Bush gets no money next year. For anything.
They just need to set it up so that Republican attempts to filibuster harm what Bush wants to do. Attach everything to must-pass bills. If some Democrats defect, it’s OK as long as the good guys retain 41.
But the Republicans will accuse of us terrible things, they whine. The Republicans will accuse the Democrats of being traitors no matter what the Democrats do, so the Democrats might as well do the right thing.
dakine01 @ 15
Even though zed is Canadian for “z” aka “zee” and has nothing to do with zero at all.
I gave up my AT&T landline and went to Sprint. No regrets at all. When the gal asked why I was giving up the account, I told her it was because of domestic spying. She just said ‘oh’ as though it was on her computer screen as an option for quitting.
Oh. And I’m starting to enjoy the erudite conversations I’m having with myself at the end of old threads.
Hugh @ 32
by squirreling away info, did this martinet gopher broke and hamster-ring the efforts to shed light on voter caging?
Loo Hoo. @ 39
I thought Qwest was the only telecom that resisted the requests, subsequently, the DoJ went after the CEO, IIRC…!!!
punaise came home!!! (((punaise!!!)
punaise @ 41
Wow - this is a rodent-rich environment - you’re really beavering away.
Joe Buck @ 37
Yes, exactly. The withdrawal deadline and Webb’s troop-rotation conditions are amendments to the Defense authorization, which Bush needs. If they want to filibuster them, they’re the ones shutting down the Defense Department.
(BTW, it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who are professional Capitol Hill reporters, like that Craig Crawford who’s always on Countdown, who don’t seem to understand this, instead blathering about how they have to have enough votes to override a veto.)
Fern @ 44
We’re back in Animal Planet. Beaver Away!
CTuttle, I haven’t read anywhere that Sprint cooperated, have you?
bmaz @ 28
I disagree. The telecoms have a fiduciary trust to their stockholders to avoid entering into arrangements which they are likely to know are illegal and incurring the resultant liability from them. The government can wave a wand but that doesn’t mean the telecoms have to start believing in fairies.
It’s rather like this Administration’s use of torture. Saying they didn’t did not indemnify those CIA interrogators from being held accountable for torturing whether it was called so or not. The MCA was an attempt to muddle the waters and give such immunity to them, but if the MCA should be found unconstitutional on these grounds they will find themselves back in their original legal predicament. Just because the government says it is OK doesn’t mean it’s OK and that there’s no legal liability.
Fern @ 40
Well, it can be a good way to organize thoughts and marshal arguments. Just cut-and-paste the results to somewhere afterwards, so you can have them handy later.
Woo hoo, Loo Hoo!
Yes, exactly. The withdrawal deadline and Webb’s troop-rotation conditions are amendments to the Defense authorization, which Bush needs. If they want to filibuster them, they’re the ones shutting down the Defense Department.
The same Jim Web that totally agrees with Bush’s analysis of the Vietnam war?
Did you miss us, bedbug? Are you home for reals or just on an internet cafe type dealio?
Bush is absolutely right about the consequences of failure!
If we want to lessen the consequences of failure we must first remove the causes of failure.
OMG, Bush is the cause of failure and to make Iraq turn out less bad we must remove him. It’s just like a cancer; you can’t get better until you eradicate the damn thing!
ERADICATE THE CANCER!!!
Loo Hoo. @ 47
I’m certain Qwest was the only one that rebuffed the Maladministration’s efforts, I remember a credible source mentioning it about a year ago…!!!
Hugh @ 48
In a model business environment the company may have a fiduciary responsibility to the stockholders but, as another result of the BushCo world, it has become obvious that most companies are in business solely to perpetuate the corporate management and the bonuses and stock options. Few stockholders are ever paid attention to other than in the most perfunctory way.
Hi hi hi hi hi hi hi.
My teachers look at my work at school. My brother checks how well I did my chores. When I baby-sit, the people that pay me look at how well I took care of their kids. So why do repubs think nobody should look at how well they do their job?
i know the answer. A word I just learned. HUBRIS.
raven, what did Webb say in agreement with Bush. I have been out of the loop totally.
Fern @ 44
McConnell was something of a mole until the FISA fiasco exposed him for the rat he is.
Well said, Jane. And could we have a statement from the Democratic front runners about what the Dems’ policy position should be, and announce it before five mintues before the vote closes? Thank you.
Loo Hoo. @ 52
it was surprisingly easy to unplug for a couple of weeks, did check in here a couple of times. alas, vaction is over. back to goofing off from the workplace.
And the mantra of the Democrats in conceding to DNI McConnell’s every demand was “we trust him.” But who was McConnell relying upon and “trusting” to get “this very, very complex bill” (reduced from 66 pages to 11 at final passage) crafted? “20 [Executive Branch] lawyers” - undoubtedly including David Addington, Cheney’s puppet.
Reading the long account of the process that McConnell gave to the El Paso Times, the impression I was left with was that our federal legislators sat back and watched as Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, assisted by 20 Executive Branch attorneys, took over the role of Congress and crafted vital FISA legislation (that clearly fails to protect Constitutionally-protected liberties), almost entirely behind closed doors.
Any attempt by legislators to re-insert themselves into the process (though without public hearings or other public debate) was rejected mostly out-of-hand by McConnell and his lawyers in the end - to the extent that the removal of retroactive immunity (for now) seems to have been McConnell’s own suggestion, doubtless because he figured he could come back and win the next round too, just as easily. [Bush and Cheney are already demanding a promise to pass that corporate immunity provision from Congress before they will release the subpoenaed DOJ/OLC legal justifications that Leahy and the Judiciary Committees have requested…]
It is beyond stunning how our rights to and Constitutionally-mandated power of self-determination via our Congress have been carelessly, indifferently, outrageously given away, ceded, surrendered to a power-addicted president by the incumbents (of all political party persuasions) of our Legislative Branch of government.
Http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....v=hcmodule
scarecrow @ 59
Yes. When’s the next debate and who’s running it? We need on the record statements.
Hugh @ 58
Voles waggin’ a tale
SnarKassandra @ 56
SnarKassandra,
Hubris is prominent in much of Greek Mythology. As is your name. You should do some quick study of Edith Hamilton’s Mythology or Bulfinch’s Age of Fable either one.
Loo Hoo. @ 57
He has been conspicuously quite because he clearly believes the Vietnam was “lost” by liberals and the media.
Bush vs Kerry
To be sure, Kerry deserves condemnation for his activities as the leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). In the early 1970s, this small organization — never more than 7,000 veterans out of a potential pool of 9 million — became the darling of the anti-war movement and the liberal media. Its activities went far beyond simply criticizing the politics of the war to repeatedly and dishonestly misrepresenting the service of Vietnam veterans and the positive feelings most felt after serving.
dakine01 @ 64
Wouldn’t mind doing that myself. But Ms. Cassie is already wise beyond her years. That summary of accountability would put the entire Congress to shame.
scarecrow @ 59
Um, yeah.
Maybe the dems are going to bring up some things that we are unaware of when they come back all rested. Some things that will make telecom spying/FISA look trivial. Remember that Pelosi said we only know the half of it….
punaise - delighted you’re back. It was “a mature” hour here without ya.
“…it would be great to hear the Democratic leadership get out in front of this thing..”
It’d be great if there were a Santa Claus too, but unfortunately there is no Santa Claus and there is no Democrat who has the balls to buck these assholes.
Good one, Gordon! You rascal, you!
scarecrow @ 66
So true.
I was one of those who enjoyed good writing whether it had to do with school or not so read both books as well as The Illiad and The Oddyssey before I ever had them assigned in school.
GordonM @ 69
doing my level best to drag down the level of discourse around here…
On the issues of telco liability, if I were their counsel, I would not be comfortable with any “it’s okay because we said so” signed by the Bush Admin’s Attorney Generals et al. Nor would I bet my company on indemnification by an Adminstration that might well say, “we had the inherent authority under Article 2, so we didn’t do anything wrong, and we’re not going to indemnify you. Go appeal your case.” It would be malpractice for a corporate counsel to rely on such assurances. JMO.
Bmaz my man,
Great to see you taking a dip in the lake.
I’ve been following your dialogue at Marcy’s place as well. I gave you a plug on the impeach Fredo idea the other day. It’s a pleasure to get your insights.
Jonathan @ 10
I tweaked it for you there.
raven @ 65
Or try this one:
Webb does NOT believe that there are parallels between Vietnam and Iraq. Webb says that he “still strongly support[s] the Vietnam War,” that the “logic was sustainable,” that as late as 1972, a Harris survey indicated that 74% of the American people felt it was important that South Vietnam not fall to the Communists.
[Bush and Cheney are already demanding a promise to pass that corporate immunity provision from Congress before they will release the subpoenaed DOJ/OLC legal justifications that Leahy and the Judiciary Committees have requested…]
Huh - hadn’t heard that one before. Didn’t we just have a post about Lucy pulling the football out from in front of Charlie Brown again?
Was Charles Schulz the secret progenitor of Republican policy?
raven @ 77
Maybe 74% of the people were brainwashed.
Yes, but raven, what’s Webb saying about Iraq? That’s what matters now.
SnarKassandra @ 56
Hubris is a great word. I think my first post here was something like “When snark becomes hubris; the Gods will punish”
CHS said something like “If you post cryptic comments, people will think you are weird.”
Maybe 74% of the people were brainwashed.
That statistic is clearly bologna, what’s really important here is that Webb says that he “still strongly support[s] the Vietnam War,” that the “logic was sustainable,
Steve, was Christy right? Are you weird? *G*
Maybe 74% of the people were brainwashed.
Assuming the poll was accurate, it doesn’t follow that 74% of the public were in favor of reentering South Vietnam with 100,000 US troops to stop the NVA when they broke the agreement.
Once we got out, I don’t think the public would have supported going back in.
as late as 1972, a Harris survey indicated that 74% of the American people felt it was important that South Vietnam not fall to the Communists
The man’s criminally insane. It was what the Vietnamese people thought that mattered, not what the Americans thought.
Besides that, they were WRONG. Far from America falling after Vietnam, the Soviet Union disintegrated and China went capitalist.
On that logic, I suppose we can expect “Islamofascism” to self destruct twenty years after America withdraws from Iraq. Which might in fact be true; most people in the area would think OBL was an asshole if he weren’t goosing the American eagle every now and then.
SnarKassandra @ 79
It was a totally different world then Cassie. People were arrested for having long hair or dressing differently. There was a total divide in the country far more pronounced than it is today, although there are still many undercurrents rippling through today from those years.
Much of what we see today in the actions of the fundie xtianists is in response to those years whether it’s a backlash against the Civil Rights movement, women’s rights, anti-war/anti-draft, basic human freedoms and dignity whatever.
scarecrow @ 84
I’d really like to see the question that was asked that yielded that stat.
raven @ 51
By all means, let’s get rid of all Democrats who have ever said anything objectionable. That’ll help a lot.
I am so tired of the defeatist crap that’s been filling up FDL lately. Later, guys.
dakine01 @ 72
The Audio book of the Fagles’ translation of the Odyssey is hypnotic.