So much for the clarity from yesterday. From today’s WaPo:
But in an interview yesterday, McNerney made clear his views have shifted since returning from Iraq. He said Democrats should be willing to negotiate with the generals in Iraq over just how much more time they might need. And, he said, Democrats should move beyond their confrontational approach, away from tough-minded, partisan withdrawal resolutions, to be more conciliatory with Republicans who might also be looking for a way out of the war.
“We should sit down with Republicans, see what would be acceptable to them to end the war and present it to the president, start negotiating from the beginning,” he said, adding, “I don’t know what the [Democratic] leadership is thinking. Sometimes they’ve done things that are beyond me.”
Here’s a message to Democrats: stay far away from the WH talking points on Iraq — this has been the deadliest summer yet and using their messaging language only allows them to obscure that point, which simply serves to continue their legacy of failure on your dime. Although, to be fair to McNerney and other Democrats quoted in the WaPo piece, Anne Kornblut is involved in this particular article – and, as Somerby points out, her stenography has been…erm…less than accurate in the past.
So, we are certainly following up on this…
PS — Having spent the last few minutes of my life watching George Bush say absolutely nothing of substance to a bunch of veterans whose sacrifice deserves far better than the Karen Hughes propaganda touch they got this morning. Josh has a prebuttal that is worth a read, but this point needs restatement: justifying our continued failures in policy as a response to taunts from Osama Bin Laden is a pathetically junior high level of analysis, and it serves no purpose to pretend that this is “strategic thinking” on any level but that of George Bush’s ego. This from Joe Klein back in July is also worth a read this morning in light of this speech: “We have had more than four years of a President who seems to have such a low opinion of the public that he can’t bear to tell it the truth about a war gone sour.” This President and his supporters know that their support is slipping, not just among Democrats, but among all Americans.
Related posts:
- How the Senate Winds Up Supporting the House Health Reform Surtax
- As Justice Stevens Winds Down, Will Obama Continue Court’s Trend to the Right?
- Right/Left Coalition Forming Against Blank Check Government?
- Early Morning Swim: Rachel Takes Tom Ridge to the Woodshed
- Pew Poll: Americans Losing Patience with Congress
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Christy!
zip
BADA BING!
zed?
Good one Biodun!
Good morning Christy.
Richmond @ 5
I invited you along in the last thread!
I need coffee.
I crack open the old peepers, flip on the tv and see a horrible visage of the shrub saying something he was saying 3 years ago…
where did I put my coffee cup?
ick.
Jeffery Feldman – Framing the Debate author…
Rule #1 – Do not repeat their talking points … NEVER EVER … if they say it more than twice, two sources, it is a Repug talking point.
Great title and photo juxtaposition.
I will repeat my last comment down in EPU-land below. We are screwed. If the Democratic leadership do not call out the Administration flacks on this crap, our troops will suffer the greatest defeat in the field since Bataan, long march and all.
When is someone going to face up to the fact that we cannot sustain a presence there at a cost that the American people accepts? Do our people in Congress (except for Murtha) have any idea just how tenuous our situation is over there? This is military catastrophe waiting to happen.
Bush doesn’t care if his support among the people is slipping. He’s running out the clock. The tragedy is that Democrats are content to run it out with them.
So. Is there general agreement we should leave Iraq; the sooner the better?
This is really shameful and it is going to work.
-GSD
I concur with JayT’s diagnosis of Mr. Bush from the last thread;
The motherfucker is insane.
Quoting Josh:
Well, this arrogant preening motherfucker made damn sure he withdrew from Vietnam before even going there.
From the article:
“Instead, Democrats have been forced to recalibrate their own message in the face of recent positive signs on the security front…”
What possible recent positive signs? That some of the moles have been temporarily whacked down?
The administration could not care less about support from the public. If the Constitution is just a piece of paper, what difference could it possibly make if Joe Q Public supports the policy du jour.
They are delusional messianic oilpatch idiots who think they are great patriots. We need to find a way to stop them before they bomb Iran. I just can’t believe that a collective rational progressive spine can’t grow on the left side of the aisle.
George Bush simply doesn’t know the world, so quite frankly, he can’t explain it. Here’s a guy who for most of his life hasn’t done his homework. Knowledge of the world (even portions of it) does not come that easily. YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
Knut Wicksell @ 11
Bush is sealing the fate of America. Driving a steak into the heart of America.
-GSD
g’morning.
I don’t give a rip if the surge is working or not, or really working or not.
Let’s get out.
Love the wind farm, chs.
It is up to the people to end the war.
Who has the best excuse for NOT being in the halls of congress in September?
But Christy, you just don’t understand!
There’s nothing worse than being called a loser!
Our perpetually adolescent president ain’t gonna admit it. He just won’t (stamps foot, stalks off).
GSD @ 20
A T-Bone steak.
Shorter Bush, we’ll kill Iraqis by the 1,500’s a month until they democratize! If we have to stay for the next decade killing 1,500 a month that’s what we’ll do by cracky.
-GSD
GSD @ 20
Is that a flank, sirloin, or NY strip steak, gsd? *g*
CNN – “it was an interesting speech – a history lesson”
And this bullshit;
This guy obviously talks to different Republicans from another plane of existence, you don’t negotiate with these phsyco’s,you have to put your boot on their neck just to get their attention.
Meanwhile, polls are slipping because Congress isn’t “confrontational” enough. A better substitute for “confrontational approach” would be “following the will of the people.” Then the quote (if accurate) Would read: “Democrats should move away from following the will of the people . . .”
From the article…
“The first installment of Petraeus’s testimony is scheduled to be delivered…”
And he’d better adhere to Bush’s script, less he gets his ass fired too.
What is it about getting to Washington that makes Dems start thinking they can negotiate with the rethugs? Do they suddenly forget? Oh, that’s it – it’s something in the water there, that’s why no one in the Bush administration can remember squat.
My party really needs to get it through their stupid and vapid little heads that they are not connecting with the American people. I am sooo fed up with the Democratic “leadership” and the front-runners.
What’s up with McNerney?
Now I know why Anne Kornbluth jumped to WaPo from the NYTimes.
I had such high hopes for McNerney.
“This President and his supporters know that their support is slipping, not just among Democrats, but among all Americans.”
The only Americans who count for Bush are the repubs and dems in congress.
He’s got them right where he wants ‘em — complicit in everything he does.
I don’t agree with any proposition to the effect Bush’s power is waning.
Bustednuckles @ 15
Worse than that is the fact that he has spread that sickness across the world impacting millions
Christy:
Anne Kornbluth…
Sachem @ 18
No argument here. Read anything about how addicts “think” and you’ll see George and Dick right there.
Impeachment is the only intervention, except that Congress has turned into a bunch of enablers, too.
twolf1 @ 27
From the guy whose dog ate his homework.
If McNerney’s statements on Iraq are susceptible to being spun to support the war, then he isn’t speaking out against the war clearly and strongly enough.
It is that simple.
Biodun @ 7
I missed it, I’ve been doing a bunch of work today— but ekuse!
Biodun at 37 — That isn’t how her byline reads on the WaPo — they have it spelled Kornblut.
Jonathan @ 35
Rubberstamp Rethugs and Fainting Goat Dems.
Salut to the wordsmiths!
From the article…
“House Democratic Caucus Chairman Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) made a round of calls yesterday to freshman Democrats, some of whom recently returned from trips to Iraq and made news with their positive comments on military progress. “I’m not finding any wobbliness on the war — at all,” Emanuel said.”
Whoa — it’s not just Mikey O’Hanlon who had an excellent adventure there. Very scary.
Someone needs to show Mr. McInerny the quote fron Grover Norquist about how compromise is date rape.
-GSD
If you want the Republicans to help end the war, you have to make them suffer politically for supporting it.
The only way to do so is to stand up and criticize them, not muddy your differences with talk of moving forward together and bipartisanship, which simply serves to provide them with cover to continue the war.
“Don’t take my word for it, listen to what Bin Laden says.”
When will this idiot realize he’s a puppet?
When you react to what your enemy says, and your enemy knows you will, you’ve lost.
twolf1 @ 27
A very bad history lesson. CNN moronics.
We need to keep the heat on folks. I hope that FDL, dkos, and other flaming “femblogs” and “hate” sites will fire up the phones again to remind DC they work for us ESPECIALLY when they start making these kind of McNerney noises.
That’s right, we HATE war, esp. illegal, unjust wars.
I guess I’m just gonna have to continue to reprise “our” talking points on this subject until those cowardly Democrats get it:
Is the media cherry picking ANY string of words from ANY Democrat just to dovetail into their Ari Summer Iraq spin machine?
Hey any day Kucinich will be spouting the same talking points, just a hesitation and poof he is all for surge, splurge…. in Iraq.
Knut Wicksell @ 11
Democrats (forget even mentioning Republican) like Clinton really seem to think there’s some less obtrusive form of occupation that will work, on permanent bases with “over the horizon forces”. I believe the Post’s coverage of the British withdrawal from Basra described their equivalent of the Green Zone there as “an Alamo”. The people running the country think we’re immune from the laws of history.
I got McNerney’s e-mail yesterday and sent him a response that could be summarized as ‘we can’t win, we aren’t going to break even, and it’s way past time to get out of the game’.
As for Shrub and his ‘Iraq = Vietnam’ thing, I’d like to chip in to get him a one-way ticket to Vietnam … in 1970.
Biodun at 48: “Moronics” Is that a new growing field. I must buy stocks in it before everyone catches on.
McNerney is beginning to piss me off…but then I have to step back and remember we are in a decades long fight and the first priority is to defeat Republicans. Any district that had Pombo as its rep has got to be tough for a Dem. Being pure on all of the issues and loosing the election is worthless. The priority is to defeat Republicans en-mass and reform the Dems one district at a time. The one exception to any Dem is Chris Carney, he should be our target for ‘08.
Keith Olberman for Prez…
Ya think the helicopter mishap is related
to poor maintenance and will get worse unless
we get the fuck out of this war…
Our Army is broke…
In any of the poll reports, has anyone asked why Congress generates low opinions?
Like, refusal to stand up to Bush?
Interesting that the polls numbers are a “what” (the number) but not a “why”.
Check the front page of CNN.com for the face of Iraq
Prediction:
Nothing is gonna change. The quagmire will go on. Congress lacks the aggregate cojones to undertake any substantive countermeasures.
I would love to be proven wrong, but I doubt it.
Jerry McNerney has treated the netroots supporters and his own constituency with utter disrespect and betrayal. His brief tenure in Congress needs to end. And let me double that for Rep. Brian Baird from Washington State who, despite having voted against the initial authorization, now has blood on his hands in supporting the Bush occupation and sending more troops to their deaths. The Bush dog “democrats” need to be sent to the exit.
P J Evans @ 53
You are very civil. :) I wasn’t graced with an email but if I was I would say, WTF are you doing pushing more smack to an addict?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 42
That’s interesting. That’s not what google says.
sofistic @ 34
The next mailing of his that comes my way is going to get a nasty return comment, and he’s coming off my personal ActBlue page NOW!!!
You’re right: it’s a failure of the Dem leadership that they didn’t warn the new Dem lambs about the Bad Republican Wolves in “we can’t lose” clothing.
I saw today that Ari Fleicher is heading up some $14 million effort to flood the airways with commercials saying “the surge is working” and “support Bush.”
They must have test-marketed this crap on McNerney.
Google on Anne Kornbluth.
Google sez Kornblut.
-GSD
Albert Fall @57
Read Glenn Greenwald on the subject at Salon.com
linky http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
The link function is not working for me.
Christy: Just type “anne kornbluth” into google.
The repugs think the term ‘public servant’ means the public serves them. The Dems are sposed to be better than that. The majority of americans have made it clear how they feel about the war & health care. How high do the polls have to reach before congress listens to the voters who put them there, 80%?, 90%?
So much for democracy & the voices of the people.
Ugh. I really don’t see why the Dems don’t just declare victory and bring the troops home. Saddam’s dead, his WMDs are gone (because they were never there in the first place, but never mind), and Iraq has a democratically elected government. We’ve accomplished what we set out to do. If we really want to strike a blow against terrorism, we can have the troops knock over Saudi Arabia on their way home, since that’s where most of the suicide bombers are coming from. (BONUS: There’s where most of the 9/11 suicide bombers came from, too!)
Chimpys speech was THE WORST piece of crap war-mongering diatribe, I have ever heard. It sounded like Darth Cheney had a lot to do with it too. I am appalled, UNBELIEVABLE it is really shocking, that in this day and age a speech like that is given in ANY democratic country!
CNN.com’s current poll:
I think the public isn’t buying his speech. Now we have to get Congress to see that.
I don’t get very far thinking Bush or Blue Dogs are stupid. Bush has done quite well advancing his agenda – restoring a laissez faire (we call it free markets) Robber Baron Era. It is a measure of his sagacity that we blame Rove and Cheney as the principals. I had a manager that managed the same sleight-of-hand. The blame landed on everybody but him. Only when the everybodies transferred or retired was the manager recognized to be the evil bastard he was.
Likewise, Blue Dogs (and sadly, my congressman is one) can read the tea leaves. One would think differentiation from Bush would be the order of the day – even some Republicans up for re-election have that figured out.
So I’m left with, they’re in on it.
Which tracks with what I’ve told anybody that will listen. To form a progressive government, we will fight two battles. First, Republicans. Then the DLC/Blue Dog/what-have-you.
A propos the “prebuttal” at TPM: it sounds like a bitter and defensive Kissinger is speaking through that ventriloquist’s dummy, Bush. We’re all aware by now of Bush’s soirees with intellectuals, his avid reading about failed colonial ventures, etc.
Mauimom @ 63
To follow-up on this (from the last thread, but on topic here also), Freedom’s Watch is the organization (via politico):
Freedom’s Watch aims to do for the GOP what the MoveOn political action organizations have done for Democrats. Blakeman, who was a member the White House senior staff in Bush’s first term, said Freedom’s Watch is designed as “a never-ending campaign – a stable, credible voice of reason on generational issues that won’t rise and fall with election cycles.”
The board consists of Blakeman; Fleischer; Mel Sembler, a Florida Republican who was Bush’s ambassador to Italy; William P. Weidner, president and chief operating officer of the Las Vegas Sands Corp.; and Matt Brooks, executive director of the Republican Jewish Coalition.
The donors include Sembler; Anthony Gioia, a Buffalo businessman who was Bush’s ambassador to Malta; Kevin Moley, who was Bush’s ambassador to the U.S. Mission to the United Nations in Geneva; Howard Leach, a former Republican National Committee finance chairman who was Bush’s ambassador to France; Dr. John Templeton of Pennsylvania, chairman and president of the John Templeton Foundation; Ed Snider, chairman of Comcast-Spectacor, the huge Philadelphia sports and entertainment firm; Sheldon Adelson, chairman of the Las Vegas Sands Corp. and ranked by Forbes magazine as the third wealthiest American; and Richard Fox, who is chairman of the Jewish Policy Center and was Pennsylvania State Chairman of the Reagan/Bush campaign in 1980.
Franco @ 70
FWIW, I can’t bring myself to listen to him hiss his stupidity anymore. It’s all I can do to even allow him to trot his little self across my TV screen when he’s jumping out of a helicopter.
Frank Probst @ 69
Bush will be doing that sometime next year. It just has to be close enough to Jan 20, 2009 so that chaos erupts when he’s out of office. That way he can strut around as the dear leader who made everything right but others messed it up.
P J Evans @ 71
Yes 28% 12920
That’s 12,918 plus Laura and Barney, the only two votes that count.
“We didn’t get elected to be popular.”
- Dickhead Cheney
From MSNBC: Anne Kornbluth
We’re not talking about two different people are we?
BobbyG @ 16
I remember Vietnam all too well with all its bloody details. We were there since the fifties with CIA planting havoc and treachery throughout that country. When we finally left in 1975 it was after 20 years of interference and using weapons of mass destruction on the civilian population.
If you missed reading Graham Green’s The Quiet American on our presence in 1950’s Vietnam, I suggest you read this work. The last few months of Curtis LaMay’s life the guy says if we had stayed longer in Vietnam we would have won. He was a mad man. Seriously. He lived in some glory fantasy world created by his imagination. The Vietnamese had enough of us. We defoliated their land rendering them forever war victims subject to deformity and death over and over.
Anyone who says we left Vietnam too soon is speaking out of gross ignorance. Sorry for the rant but I was too close to that part of the world and spent every day actively discouraging my fellow citizens from entering that hideous plan of extermination.
These are the same people who ran around saying, “Better dead than red.” Translated that meant – Better you dead so I can have an imaginary enemy.
did the chimp just bless al Maliki?
didn’t the chimp suggest yesterday that al Maliki ain’t quite cuttin it.
This effing moron just doesn’t get it.
The only problem is that I can’t wait to see how the dems end up in some way supporting something the chimp said!
That was the worst speech I have ever heard.
The lesson of Viet Nam was not that we left too soon. Rather, the lesson of Viet Nam was the Powell Doctrine.
Unfortunately and inexplicably a lesson the
person the lesson was named for, when it really counted and he was Secretary of State, forgot.
BobbyG @ 77
Right, all you gotta do now is get popular to be elected. After that, anything goes. Although I’ll bet Darth is verrry popular with the Big Oil crowd.
Bio, it is really no big deal. It is a German name and it can be spelled both ways, but in her paper byline it is spelled Kornblut so I gather that is how she spells it.
-GSD
snowbird42 @ 58
I can’t look at those pictures. My heart is breaking.
These SOBs have really backed themselves into a corner. The middle east wars were to prove the true invincibility of the american military after the humbling defeat by the gooks of Nam.
They simply cannot do anything which resembles defeat, backing down, cutting and running, redeploying… nada… ain’t gonna happen.
If there were some rational minds in the beltway they would call in the generals and ask them how come the mighty USA took a whooping and how about you guys retool and focus on defending our borders not trying to have a muscular foreign policy which you can’t seem to make work. We can’t be doing these lessons in failures every 40 years.
Bush is an idiot. Everyone knows it. Even his father. But it was assumed that he would surround himself with grown ups who would make him look like an adult.
He is nothing but a stupid bully who is incapable of accepting anything except on his small minded terms. Behind him are some pretty dangerous right wingers who are grabbing money by the oodles and trying to set it up for decades to come. They have successfully turned our government into a cash cow for corporate interests and high net worth individuals, while completely disregarding the environment and the people. The constitution has proven to be no impediment to their scheme and along the way it has been rendered useless.
This crowd has brought us to fascism, cloaked in the american flag and lofty ideals which are not practiced any longer. We’re racist, we hate the working class, we care more about 16 cells zygote than the woman which created it.
With the firm grasp of money on the levers of government it seems rather unlikely that we cad do little but watch the end come to our experiment in democracy in slow motion.
The good thing is the internet has allowed us to share the story, even though we seem to be powerless to change our fate.
Thanks to the GOP. Mission accomplished. The rich won.
I gather Colin Powell is dashing his head against a table right now.
If anyone thinks that the man who just gave that speech wouldn’t be willing to launch an attack on Iran you need to have the rocks removed from your head.
-GSD
QuakerGirl @ 79
Read also Karnow’s seminal work “Vietnam, a History.”
Our top intel and administration people KNEW early on that, short of nuking indochina, we could not prevail. But on and on and on it went.
Same thing gonna happen in Eye-Rack.
Just one comment about this morning’s news about McNerney:
WTF????
Problem with listening to Bush’s speeches is that you never get those minutes of your life back…
Franco @ 70
Just put a sash on him and call him Hugo….
*xyz @ 40
Yes, that is the same problem with Hillery’s people complaining she was misquoted. If you say anything vaguely like their talking points you might as well just echo them. We need contrast, not finesse.
I have always believed that some of the missing billions (that were sent to Iraq) ended up in the bank accts. of repubs. Hell of a slush fund.
Sorry. I intended to say good morning and drop in to observe. Christy, thank you for keeping us in the loop on McNerney. I truly appreciate such willingness to report contradiction coming from people we thought we could trust. Truth is always better than mindless blind loyalty.
I am so confused I just can’t figure it out. Certainly he has figured out we are paying attention and won’t let this slip by. There must be something I just am not getting that makes so many Democrats willing pawns.
SanderO,
I feel like that some days as well, but we have gotta keep up the fight or stand whimpering in the corner with the 30%ers
You could say I’m disapponted in Mr. McNerney. And I am. But at least this guy isn’t the projected winner of the Democratic nomination for prez. Now there’s some real disappontment.
Christy:
Two different spellings of that name (of the same person) are in cyberspace. But she spells it without an “h” in her Facebook profile. So…
My excuse: I sometimes work professionally as an editor, so I’m a bit obsessive in that respect.
I think we need to change the weapons in this fight. We are not winning with the pen.
I think the left needs to focus more on direct actions
STRIKES
MASSIVE NATIONAL STRIKES
LET THE PEOPLE PEOPLE SPEAK AND BE HEARD.
I wonder what the wingnuts are gonna think — they’ve been braying for years now that Iraq isn’t Vietnam, and now their Glorious Leader is saying it is!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 95
The key word is PROJECTED….IF we work hard enough and get the word out, that doesn’t have to be. Mz Triangulating Hillary may be the projected, but I get a feeling those polls are about as good as the zogby exit polls from 2004 in other words CRAP!
GSD @ 83
Thanks. See my 96 to Christy.
Redshift @ 98
Will we be building another long black marble wall?
MayDaze @ 74
Thanks for this! Sounds standard AIP*C fare. Sembler is the worst. A real neo-con Middle East war thug. He is an AEI man and in Italy as I recall he was implicated in the whole Niger yellowcake business. Plus, he had major problems in terms of embassy redecorating at the tax payer’s expense. SOmething in there about buying a huge sculpture, I believe. Anyway a way bad person, wing nut and very corrupt Rethug, who also may have been in some way involved in the Florida Presidential election business.
It would be fun to have a post on him, and the timing would be perfect.
diogenes @ 72
What free markets? Wait till they have to start paying for Bush’s trillion-dollar war. They won’t look so free then.
1,575 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen diogenes and the Firepup Patriots:
“To form a progressive government, we will fight two battles…(with) Republicans…(and) with DLC/Blue Dog/what have you.
NOW yer gettin’ it ,kid, but we hafta fight the battles simultaneously, that’s why keepin’ a corporatist Blue Dog like Mrs. Clinton from the White House is more important than losin’ the election to one of the Keystone Cops runnin’ for the fascist nomination. As long as we hold both houses of Congress, get rid of a few more Blue Dog Republicrats and position progressive leaders like the good Senator from Wisconsin to dump the fascist fellow travelers from leadership we are still in the fight…but if Mrs. Clinton wins the nomination, her first act will be to purge the Democratic Party leadership of progressives and re-establish a DLC/A*P*C junta in charge of the troops. It won’t matter if she wins the White House, the policies of the corporate oligarchy and New Wave fascism with a friendly face will remain in place and power consolidated…goodbye net neutrality.
I’ve been sayin this for over a year now…Mrs. Clinton is more dangerous to democracy than any of the stooges runnin’ for the nomination of the fascist party.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…WE MUST LIVE TO FIGHT TOMORROW!!!
Maybe if the neocons keep braying “moral clarity,” we should take up the phrase “empirical clarity.”
I’m confused about McNerney.
Has he legitimately changed his position?
Is he lying?
Both?
Prairie Sunshine @ 90
But not Hugh.
Franco @ 99
Polls reflect the responses of 1,000 people and who are they? What are their multiple choice answers from which to select? Polling companies make big bucks. We should start one.
MayDaze @ 74
MayDaze @74:
Thanks for this. It sort of speaks for itself. It is a subject for debate how much the Israeli lobby and American Jews who participate in that lobby are responsible for the war and the continued occupation. Whether you think the Lobby was the deciding lobby for the war, or whether you think their role is overstated, this tidbit demonstrates that they are at least responsible for the marketing element of the war, whether it be an ad buy, an op-ed, or a symbolic resolution by our neutered Congress.
And Mel Sembler, of course, was probably involved in producing the Niger forgery.
Richmond @ 102
I thought people would be interested in seeing who was funding this propaganda catapult.
yellowdogD @ 47
So, is bin Laden running America now? Bush’s America?
GSD @ 86: “I gather Colin Powell is dashing his head against a table right now.”
Really? IMO Powell knew exactly what he was doing when he agreed to be the front man for the war. He is nothing but an uncle tom for the Repubs and always will be.
Mel Sembler also had a teen drug treatment program called Straight in Florida which engaged in so much physical abuse that it was closed down.
fdl reader @ 111
He is a Bush crony and the bin Laden family long ago started flowing funds into Bush family accounts.
brendan @ 109
First I’d heard that, and I thought I’d read every credible article on the subject. Did you read that somewhere?
jim oconnor @ 112
“Uncle Tom” is kind of harsh. I think “Bush Toady” is more accurate.
I thought Bush’s description of post withdrawal Vietnam, thoroughly describes Iraq now!
People being tortured and executed.
Millions fleeing the country.
Detainment camps.
As for “boat people”…well more like “desert fleeing people”.
How ridiculous. Everything he always says the enemy is or will do sounds basically exactly what his own policies are doing.
Ed*ard Teller @ 115
The Vanity Fair piece on Ledeen was one place I remember seeing it.
Boston1775 @ 106
McNerney blows in the wind. Wonder what direction The Wind is blowing today?
In May the Democrats caved on the Iraq supplemental.
In July the Democrats caved on the preliminary Iraq report.
In August the Democrats caved on FISA.
Anybody see an emerging pattern here? Or what is likely to occur in September?
Interesting interplay between Bill Clinton and Al Gore in the White House Conference on Global Climate Change airing right now on C-SPAN 3.
Two failed Secretary of States. Back to back.
Glenn Greenwald today in Salon:
Woohoo Thom Hartman is having quite a heated discussion with a Repug who is calling HRC a socialist for proposing a bailout fund for at risk homeowners.
This is waaaaaay OT, but you folks don’t ever give me a chance to interrupt the deep discussions that go on here! :)
I have lots of used books, video tapes of old movies and some cassette tapes, do you have any ideas who I can donate them to? Or should I just recycle everything?
Thank you so much
Franco @ 70
Perhaps now that Rove is leaving Cheney is going to take over the messaging … boy, oh, boy would that be a big mistake for bushco. Who could think that would be a workable plan?
Mary H. @ 124
How about a local library.
Badwater @ 126
VA / hospital “libraries”
charity thrift stores
Oklahoma kiddo @ 122
And both African-American. Interesting, to say the least.
Probably will be EPU’d but here is a site with info on Mel Sembler.
http://www.italiausa.com/ra/2059.htm
“Prime Minister Maliki’s a good guy, a good man with a difficult job and I support him,” Bush said in a speech to military veterans.
Mary H. @ 124
Find out of a local group is gathering such items to send to Iraq for our military.
Hugh @ 120
Sadly, yes. I just don’t get why Dems don’t understand what the rethugs take for granted – if you stand up for something, anything, you’ll get more support than if you waffle. It’s basic psychology, and Dems are supposed to be the smart guys.
would somebody give me a “Hell Yeah!!
I just pulled off a totally impossible something. BIG win – can’t talk about it, unfortunately – but – Hell, yeah!
Biodun @ 128: See my comment above regarding Powell. Ditto for Condi.
OK Jayt,
HELL YEAH.
Better now?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 130
Yeah, hehe, he’s “good folks” and we’re gonna git him some new legs should the need arise.
Badwater @ 116
Uncle Tom is too kind. I decided not to go to the 25th Anniversary of the Wall because he is the keynote.
brendan @ 118
OK. I remember now. You’re right – he was US Ambassador to Italy when they were created. I can’t find an instance of his having been asked about this, using my feeble search tools.
marymccurnin @ 119
Thanks. So we’ve been played, again.
Mauimom @93
This breaks my heart. I’ve been observing the way this lobby works and how they usurped “Jewish”, “Jews”, “Zion” pretending to speak for all Jewish peoples. Nothing could be farther from reality. They’ve intimidated Jews by attacking anyone who contradicts them. There is nothing new in this approach. It’s been around throughout recorded history. I’ll bet every country and Peoples have employed this method of control.
Israel is not my enemy. So, I refuse to stand with those who have bullied its people both there and in other countries. Rather than just criticizing them, and they do deserve criticism, let us support the peace groups and political prisoners in Israel. They get little to no press. They are silenced. They struggle alone. Only a few peace groups around the world support their efforts and commitment. Bless the peace maker!
Richmond @ 129:
Not yet…*g*
Biodun @ 128
Race is irrelevant here. All that matters is that they were part of the failed Bush regime.
Mary H. — Donate them to your local library. What they can’t use for check-out, they can sell for their annual book sale for fundraising. :)
Bustednuckles @ 135
OK Jayt,
HELL YEAH.
Better now?
thankaverrrmuch, oh man… (was that a decent Elvis?)
I can never remember not to capitalize jayt.
OT From CNN
Study: T-rex could outrun David Beckham
In terms of failure we have achieved equality. Failure (and ruthlessness) is not gender, social, economic, religious, political party, or ethnically specific.
Steve-AR @ 55
I think this is the right perspective.
And because pessimism is not synonymous with paralysis, let me be a little pessimistic. McNerney is better than Pombo in every way. Meanwhile, it it doesn’t matter anyway what McNerney says or doesn’t say about the war. Congress’s warmaking powers were revoked a long time ago and it has no power to stop the war. The war will end eventually — perhaps sooner rather than later — and not on the terms our leaders will like. Someone like this McNerney may be cautious or even cowardly in not wanting to sacrifice his seat by throwing himself in the gears of the war machine, but at least he’s not fueling it enough to stop it from grinding to a halt.
McNerney is just one man, his power is limited, and FDL deserves appreciation — in cash — for the limited victory of helping get him in there.
Hugh @ 120
Maybe the democrats should change their mascot from the donkey to a spelunker.
somebody’s gonna buy me a fine lunch (okay, that’d be me) – back later – have a great afternoon, y’all.
realworld @ 91
Edwards is doing a good job of giving us just that!
GO EDWARDS!
Thanks for the suggestions re: books and videos
Oklahoma kiddo @ 148
I probably agree with you. My comment merely noted the fact. It could be interpreted or read (or not) in a variety of ways.
Are there any terms that anyone here would think would be a success? If, just if, a Moderate Kurd were to broker a peace, and enforce it with the newly trained Iraqi police, close the Iranian and Syrian borders and stop the terrorists, and then agree to oil legislation that would give the folks (and the US) cheap oil, would that not be a good thing that we should be for? If there are any signs of success, shouldn’t we rejoice instead of withdraw with our tails between our legs?
Badwater @ 116
Uncle Tom was in the state of oppression with no way out if he wanted to survive. If he objected he could become “strange fruit” hanging from a tree. Playing the role of obedient servant at that point in history gave him an edge. Today, there are choices and many paths to take. Times play a role in dictating the character of the person. Shame on Colin Powell. He had many choices.
raven @ 147
T-rex also had a hell of a penalty shot. Just check out those thighs.
Steve-AR @ 55
That’s the wrong priority. The first priority should be on saving as many dying soldiers as we can right now, by bringing them home.
This is a massive emergency, and as such can’t be treated as just another issue.
Biodun @ 123
Scarecrow brought this up this morning but replacing Maliki is something that wingnuts have been suggesting for a while. Now we have Levin. So much for the myth of Iraqi sovereignty. I wish these guys would keep their story straight. Iraq becomes a sovereign country when the Odierno and Bush crowd want to talk about the threat from Iran. Then suddenly that sovereignty disappears as Bushbots and now Levin casually call for his replacement.
People forget that we pushed for Maliki to head a constitutionally weak government precisely because he was a second tier politician from a second tier party. I guess this was supposed to make him more malleable.
That said, this gets back to the difference between the Washington-based and Baghdad-based narratives of the war. Washington was interested in reconciliation to justify its occupation and support continued basing there. Maliki as a hardline Shi’ite along with the Shia majority in government never had reconciliation as a goal. Guess which narrative won out. Reconciliation has gone nowhere.
Uncle Tom was in the state of oppression with no way out if he wanted to survive. If he objected he could become “strange fruit” hanging from a tree. Playing the role of obedient servant at that point in history gave him an edge. Today, there are choices and many paths to take. Times play a role in dictating the character of the person. Shame on Colin Powell. He had many choices.
I am especially bitter because of his role in the run-up. I believed him because I thought, as an infantry company commander in Nam he would not sell “the troops” another bill of goods.
dov12348 @ 158
Remember the citizens of Irag.
Biodun @ 129
It’s testimony to the contempt neoconservatives have always had for the State Department, who they’ve always thought of as a bunch of “Arabists” barely a notch above the U.N. The moderators may strike this comment, but Powell let them make a lawn jockey out of him. I won’t even dignify Rice with the honor of an abusive comment.
Iraq the failed state. The administration is atrophied. The legislature hasn’t passed a single legislation. Iraq has never been sovereign after Saddam.
LibertyLee @ 155
You may have a tail, but not everyone else here does.
brendan @ 162
Right Arm!
If I were paranoid, I’d say BushCO set up Powell and Rice to fail. If I were paranoid. You never know, especially with Bush, how nefarious they (BushCo) can be.
brendan @ 164
Nice snark, but it really doesn’t answer the question.
marymccurnin @ 161
Yes, absolutely.
I say any Democratic Congress-person who comes back from Iraq promoting the surge should not be returned to office in 2008.
Surely we can find some REAL Democrats to run against these fools?
I do acknowledge that I may be “wishing on a star” or hoping for ponies because McNerney is my Congressman, but I do suspect that there is no coincidence that the story was in the WaPo ONE DAY after his splash to the progressive blogs and his e-mail to his supporters.
I do (like several others here) feel that we are being played by a classic Rovian game. McNerney has been strong against the war and now he has been made to look weak . . . a flip-flopper. We are mad and we are turning against him. I’m not sure whether he deserves it or not. But I do feel we are being played. Thanks WaPo!!
Has McNerney’s camp responded to the WaPo story? We do need to fact-check whether his words were used to spin yet another “Democratic split” that may not be real.
raven @ 159
Me too, Raven. No one saddens me like Colin Powell. Partly my fault I suppose because I wanted to believe in him as a man who learned something and gained wisdom from his days in Vietnam. Of all the characters throughout this administration, I find Colin Powell to be Shakespearean.
Seems pretty clear McNerney is Pombo in a dress.
raven @165:
Is that a reference to Nazis or Black Panthers? I don’t understand.
QuakerGirl @ 170
I like the way you think!
Colin Powell was once honorable, but he sold his soul to the Bush family. Condi Rice never was honorable so her sale was not tragic.
LiberalTarian @ 171
I’ve lived in San Joaquin County since 1976 through the entire Pombo reign. I can assure you that McNerney is not Pombo, in a dress or any other costume.
I guess you had to be here. It was really, really a long reign.
ot
does anyone have the link or know which thread it was where someone posted an excerpt from ronald reagan’s diaries where hw bush was asking ronnie for a job for w bush? and reagan called him a ne’er do well or something like that…….have been searching the threads and i can’t find it…must have skipped over it……was this week….even googled and did firedoglake search……..help…….
dmac @ 176
This, I believe:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/i…..p;aid=6580
Just got back from jury duty. I take it Bush was giving us the Blackhawk Comics version of recent history?
This guy is really a putz. How exactly does Cambodia figure into this (apart from the fact that the US bombing the shit out of it from the air caused a lot of Cambodians to throw in with the Khmer Rouge, about which the US did absolutely nothing, and it was the Vietnamese that finally had to go in and stop the mass killing because it was spilling over into their territory)?
Yes, about two million Vietnamese were killed. Funny thing, though. We killed most of them.
peanutbutter @ 177
However, it’s been modified…
Christy,
In the interest of smoothing the sometimes bumpy road between Firedoglake and The Daily Howler, please consider the following. Bob Somerby is a stickler for spelling names correctly. He gratuitously blew his own horn by including the following in one of his posts:
Somerby’s name is spelled with one “m”.
QuakerGirl @ 171
Speaking of the Bard:
http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..002282.php
montag @ 178
Closer to 3 million and they killed their share.
dmac @ 175
yellowdog jim posted that yesterday.
dmac @ 175
It’s apparently satire, but so believable.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/kinsley.asp
dmac @ 175
http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/kinsley.asp
Urban Myth…
Check out the note from Condi on the right of this page linked here and the mention of Iraqi sovereignty.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news…..628-9.html
What a crock(er.)
I remain ashamed– when will fools on both sides of the aisles stop blaming the victims???
oh, and then there’s this fecalith:
http://politicalhumor.about.co…..quotes.htm
dmac @ 177
Try seaching for that and “hoax.” It really is a misconstruction of something Michael Kingsley wrote for TNR. Reagan didn’t actually write it in his diary. Because Kingsley was told that his name appeared in the released diaries, he was imagining what the entry might have been, without yet seeing it. Kingsley’s musings about that are what is being passed around as from Reagan’s diaries.
LibertyLee @ 167
Oh, that wasn’t a rhetorical question?
The first sentence of your comment was certainly fantasy, and there haven’t been any signs of success since 2003.
brendan @ 164
Ouch! Anyeway,
1. Neither the Shia nor the Sunni are going to cede power to a Kurd.
2. The Iraqi police are essentially militias and death squads with uniforms.
3. We have not been able to close the Syrian and Iranian borders with all of our troops. In fact, we have never been able to close our own border with Mexico. So this is highly unrealistic.
4. Violence in Iraq precludes anyone exploiting Iraq’s oil reserves. Also the world is using something like 80-82 million bbl/day. Iraq would probably only be able to contribute 1-2 million bbl/day extra to that. So no cheap oil there, sorry.
5. The best and indeed only way to get out of a quagmire is to leave. Where you put your tail is your business.
I wish for an Iraqi leader who shits marshmallows and pisses gossamer strands of gold and who can make the whole world happy and loving and charitable and who gives away oil for free and who lovingly hugs and embraces all religions and races and who will walk on water and sing with the voice of an angel and who dances like Denny Terrio on ecxtasy.
-GSD
I’m getting to the point where getting out of Iraq is more important to me than anything. Stopping this current crowd is more important than who the next crowd is going to be.
What the democrats are doing piling on to continue the occupation is really the end of the line on this mess. If they succeed in this we are really done.
When all this started we were told (more lies) that it would be short. What part of short means endless? And now NO ONE will hear of the end. It’s disgusting.
Hillary is becoming a collaborator in my mind. And McNerney should be just as done as Carney and Baird.
If you aren’t part of the solution, get the hell out of the way. Democrats included.
I just wish the Democrats were patriotic enough to (supposedly) risk throwing their own future to the dogs to get out of Iraq. I think the future of anyone who takes a stand is actually assured, but they are in the grip of such confusion they must find the courage to go against their what they think is their own interest for the greater good.
Where are the patriots?
if you can’t figure out McNerney, it’s because he doesn’t act like a politician. you’re not used anymore to getting presented thoughts instead of stances.
“We should sit down with Republicans, see what would be acceptable to them to end the war and present it to the president, start negotiating from the beginning,” he said, adding, “I don’t know what the [Democratic] leadership is thinking. Sometimes they’ve done things that are beyond me.”
yeah, it’s easy and kinda comforting to think every republican is as stupid as their president and will only recite the GOP talking (head) points. rep politician != rep politician on tv != WH bubble person.
if talked to repubs actually would stand up to King George further than distancing themselves to make some points in ‘08, is another questions… but sitting down together tops exchanging paroles by MSM in my book. what do you have to lose, except for your reputation as a “politician” ?
LibertyLee @ 154
So it is all about the cheap oil. A success would be to stop committing genocide. Wake up.
GOP congressman pays price for opposing war
Now, the consequences look more threatening. For the first time in more than a decade, Jones faces a serious primary challenger in Onslow County Commissioner Joe McLaughlin, a former Army Ranger, and their race will test how opposition to the Iraq war plays out in conservative and pro-military America.
Jones is not the only Republican to have broken with Bush on Iraq. Others, in more moderate, suburban districts, have also drawn primary challengers.
But in this eastern North Carolina district – one which spans parts of the Outer Banks – the conviction that patriotism means supporting even unpopular wars runs as deep as the Atlantic Ocean.
http://www.politico.com/news/s…../5478.html
montag @187:
That explains Reagan inexplicably thinking of Kinsley. Thanks. I knew that was too good to be true.
Angie @185,
fecalith?
Is that a word?
Oh, wait, like monolith except it’s crap, a big pile of shit.
GSD @ 190
I laughed out loud, especially at the shitting and pissing part.
LibertyLee @ 155
The term “success” suggests that it would be a result of something justifying our invasion and occupation of a sovereign country. The oil belongs to Iraq. If they want to sell it to us, fine, but we can’t demand that we automatically have a claim to any of it. Redeploying out of Iraq, is not withdrawing with our tails between our legs, it is going to be necessary, because the majority of the violence is not from Al Qaeda, it is from resistance fighters who want the occupation to end. If they are going to escalate their civil war, they are going to escalate their civil war. We can’t stop that. There is no redeeming way to leave this horrible scenario that we have created without further international criticism. Success for the Iraqi people would be if they could ultimately reconcile and live in peace. We can’t do that for them. Our presence there is the leading fuel for their fury. We would feel the same if we were invaded and occupied and our infrastructure destroyed. There are no good answers to “save face”. Diplomacy is the only way. JMHO
angie @ 187
Thanks for clearing that up.
Yet again, under presure from Isr*el, the Congressional Democrats are caving-in to the Bush Administration. It doesn’t matter whether the it’s foreign policy, military appropriations, or the use of torture, A*P*C says jump and the Democratic leadership asks how high.
They wanted a war between the U.S. and Iraq; they got a war between the U.S. and Iraq. They want a war between the U.S. and Iran; they’ll get a war between the U.S. and Iran.
I recommend today’s posting by Glenn Greenwald, and particularly its “update” section.
edited and released by Mods
brendan @ 196
Ah, well, after all, no one needs Ronnie Raygun’s opinion to confirm what we’ve known all along about Shrub. :)
fdl reader @ 191
“Has anybody here seen my old friend, Abraham,
Can someone tell me where he’s gone?”
OT-(self-promotion)
I’ve got a diary up over on DailyKos, and would appreciate some “recommend” votes from FDLers who have registered at DailyKos. It’s a sequel to my post on impeachment.
Bob in HI
Bustednuckles @ 197
yeppers :O
LibertyLee @ 155
The term “success” is a misnomer in the first place. This was an illegal war under international law. Even barring legal and ethical concerns, this war was a mistake from a practical standpoint as well.
Given that, there is no way ANYTHING could be construed a “success.”
I can’t speak for other people, but I suspect I’m not alone in saying I truly wish we could wake up tomorrow and find the numerous factions in Iraq have pounded their swords into plowshares and a strong, democratic government has taken root.
The problem with how we proceed from here is that we have goals and interests that conflict with each other.
If we are truly interested in establishing a democracy, it will inevitably favor the Shia majority and thus will have close ties to Iran. A constitutional democracy would of course help protect the rights of the Sunni and Kurdish minorities, but it won’t change the alliances of the majority Shia population.
If we want cheap oil, we need a puppet dictator who won’t hesitate to sell off the oil rights to foreign corporations — someone like, well Saddam Hussein. And in the end, it might result in enormous profits for the oil companies, but will have little impact on what you and I pay for gas.
But obviously those two desires are in direct conflict with each other so they can’t BOTH happen. That’s like wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
And then we have a number of other concerns from economics and a global-political perspective and they conflict with each other too.
As far as I can tell the Bush, Inc. ideas of success would literally be to have their cake and eat it too — which is actually impossible.
So if anyone is being “defeatist” I would have to say it’s the side that sets standards for success that are inherently impossible.
LibertyLee @ 155
Of course there are conditions we would recognize as success, the problem is that they’re not happening, which is why the entire war has been bad for US interests from the start.
Are there any conditions that you would recognize as making it no longer worth continuing to pour American lives and treasure into the sands of Iraq? None of the conditions you describe are happening. Do you recognize that as failure? Do you believe that as long as there is any “sign of success” (and even if things are going steadily downhill overall, there will always be small local successes) it is worth any cost to continue? Is the fear of “losing” behind your taunting language so great for you that you can see no better use our country’s resources than an attempt to prevent it?
Because this is not a choice between “we stay and everything is eventually okay” and “we pull out and it goes to hell.” It is a choice between “we stay and there is some slight chance that things might turn out all right, or they might go to hell with our troops in the middle of it with extremely extended supply lines and no route out” and “we pull out and it might go to hell or it might not, because predictions by those in favor of staying have so far been uniformly wrong.”
It is not a choice between staying the course/surge/escalation and doing nothing, it is a choice between continuing with this debacle and anything else our troops, money, and prestige might be used for to further our national interests and protect our national security.
Now tell me, considering those alternatives and not just talking about Iraq in a vacuum and at this single moment in time, are you still sure that any sign of success makes this worth continuing?
angie @ 203
Creative :)
In case it hasn’t been linked, here is The Pre-911 Failures of CIA Leaders by Larry Johnson
Pulling out our troops from Iraq would save:
–Lotsa lives that would eb lost otherwise to a useless war
–the $2 billion a week that it’s costing taxpayers that we could spend more porductively elswhere
Hugh @ 190
Or Jordan, Turkey, Kuwait or Saudi Arabia.
Good points, Hugh.
montag @ 179
But wait…wait…Pol Pot was our guy. Kissinger loved him. We backed his guerrilla activity so as to stop the North Vietnamese from “taking over” Cambodia – huh? No evidence of that? Well, if we did it as part of our CIA covert activity we were right. Just ask Henry.
dov12348 @ 158
I beg to differ; every issue discussed at FDL, war, Constitution, health care, is the result of a criminal enterprise running the government and MSM. Can the war be stopped before 01/20/09? possible but unlikely..can the Republicans be stopped in Nov ‘08, very possible if we are not distracted from the goal. If progressives can’t multi-task, we deserve to loose.
mc @ 157
Study: T-rex could outrun David Beckham
montag @ 200
I read little snippets of those Reagan diaries and my thought was how sane he was compared to the shit we hear from Republicans, and put-it-on-the-table Democrats every day now. When he mused about imminent Armageddon, for example, he seemed pessimistic, not thrilled.
Thom Hartmann (next segment) says you won’t believe what’s up in Alaska..it’s melting down in political scandal. Should be interesting.
ironranger @ 214
There was that bridge thing that was covered about two years ago, and it was clear something stank back then. Interesting to see it all melt down now, though, *after* the 06 elections. Don’t think that’s coinkydink.
QuakerGirl @ 211
Just goes to show you that the Very Serious Foreign Policy Elite were busy as little bees, then, too….
Biodun @ 209
But peace might break out and oil prices might come down. The Saudis and the oil industry wouldn’t be making windfall profits. The Bush and Cheney families wouldn’t be getting richer. We can’t have that.
peanutbutter at 178-
(singin’) peaaaaanutbuddaaaaaaah peaaaaaanutbuddaaaaaaaaah!
thanks! was drivin’ me nuts……..
LS @ 199
Heinlein once wrote that sovereignty is a word between sober and sozzled–to be ignored when you have to to wipe out a Hitler like threat. I do not believe that have to withdraw. I certainly KNOW that we are not committing genocide. We are fighting terrorism. I find it odd that no one beleives that we SHOULD win. I mean it’s one thing to think we ought to get out, it’s totally another to think we should LOSE. I must admit that when a group hates their own country enough to want it to lose a war, I find it disturbing.
I know that it is late in this thread, but, given the inordinate space given to Kornblut, I think that you should give a good guy his correct spelling. Bob Somerby, not Sommerby, is the Daily Howler.
It seems that too many dims from 06 (even one is too many) ran as real Democrats, and, once in office, became just another dim. What happens?
well, at least Hillary got up and had an answer to Clown Bush:
more back talk, please… every time something stupid comes out of their mouths, the back talk needs to begin immediately.
fecalith?
Is that a word?
Oh, wait, like monolith except it’s crap, a big pile of shit.
don’t go smoking any ziggurats near the fecaliths – too much gas…
Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R – daddy) on C-SPAN 3 praising Bush for dropping out of the Kyoto protocols.
Steve-AR @ 212
The war can be stopped by de-funding it. And certainly Congress can and should multi-task. The war can be de-funded and Congress can still address many other issues simultaneously.
No matter what, the Repubs will be stopped in ‘08; I can’t see that as a problem. The only question is how big our landslide will be.
brendan @ 214
There are some reports that he was, in fact, rather enamored of the idea, especially around the time that Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth came out. I recall someone writing about his lunch conversations about it at some Republican function about the time he was running for governor, and his awe and excitement about the prophecy was apparent. As usual with Ronnie, he tended not to catch the entire drift of the words…. :)
New thread from Christy.
CYA. And that photograph….goodness gracious.
ironranger @ 215
I predict that Young will be announcing he’s not running in 2008 by the middle of September; Sen. Stevens will probably hang on until he’s indicted. There are so many grand juries investigating Alaska politicians in Florida, Ohio, DC (multiple), Seattle and Anchorage, you could fill a small cruise ship with the jurors.
LibertyLee @ 155
A bizarre comment. Withdraw proudly and patriotically is more like it.
Fresh thread, up and running for everyone…
Redshift @ 206
Actually, I believe the President. I think the consequences of failure are so disastrous that we have to seize on any chance that we will be successful.
raven @ 160
Powell, always the good soldier, tried to help cover up the My Lai massacre. (At the time, he was a major with the Americal Division.)
I’ve never liked the guy.
BearCountry @ 219
Does that make them Dimwitcrats?
Here’s a classic: Bush Speech on Tribal Sovereignty
wigwam @ 201
My apologies and thanks to the moderators.
Hugh says @190
2. The Iraqi police are essentially militias and death squads with uniforms.
It was exactly that way in Indonesia under Kissinger’s boy, Suharto. During his military reign there were more political prisoners in Indonesia than any other country in the world. In 1980 (the early eighties) Amnesty International focused on the Year of the Child and countries that tortured children. Indonesia was at the top of the list. Soherto had US full support. The CIA made his military coup a success and supported his reign of terror for thirty years. I lived under his reign and every day was another day of fear, and, I kept under the radar. For years I had nightmares that I was running from the military down a jungle slope with my two children, trying to get to the train, jump on and get away. I would be so close when I’d wake up in a cold sweat. I never was able to out run the military.
If living there under a ruthless US backed regime did that to me, imagine how the people there feel to this day. It doesn’t go away. It won’t for the Iraqis either.
LibertyLee @ 230
That is totally irrational. It is the same kind of magical thinking that got us into Iraq in the first place.
LibertyLee @ 221
We believe in the Constitution. You believe in fascism.
LibertyLee @ 231
That’s been obvious from the time you showed up.
Lee at 221 — Heinlein was also a dirty old man who used to enjoy grabbing women’s breasts at random at science fiction conventions, just so you know… *g*
thanks! to everyone who responded to my question!
LibertyLee @ 230
ok, I am finally convinced that not feeding the trolls is the best policy. Intelligent, cogent arguments like Redshift and others have made are totally wasted on this buffoon.
LibertyLee @ 221
You know what I find disturbing? That someone could claim to want honest arguments with their point of view, and then after an extensive quotation of another person’s reply, not address it at all, but simply put their own talking points in the other person’s mouth.
Search through all the people who were suckered into thinking that you were actually engaging in a discussion, and you will find no one saying they “want their country to lose” — except you! Search for “hate their country,” and again, you’re the only one saying it!
Seeking to turn your country away from a disastrous course that is doing it great harm, and creating harm that we will have to deal with for decades to come is a result of loving your country, not hating it. Mindlessly following a president who has been wrong in everything he has said about Iraq is not loving your country and the principles it was founded on.
Ascribing fiendish motives to your opponents and making bizarre ad hominem statements like “they hate their country” simply demonstrates that you have no argument.
LibertyLee @ 221
Heinlein also wrote Starship Troopers, which endorses Fascism. You don’t fight terrorism by CREATING terrorists. Nobody thinks we SHOULD lose, we only know that we WILL lose if we treat the “war on terror” like an old-fashioned military altercation. The reason for escalation is to get your enemy out into the open. Now enforcing more terrorist attacks doesn’t sound like a rewarding strategy, does it ? Iraq will degenerate to pot (or get annexed by Iran) no matter if we stay or not. If we retreat, it’ll just be over quicker … and with less american losses. And if you want to hammer me on my notion of Iran, it’s the state which resembles democracy most down there. No, Isr*el doesn’t count unless the millions of Palestinians get the right to vote. On the other hand, if the right wing christians get their way, the differences to Iran might even get smaller … on a final off note : did you ever compare portrait shots of Dubya and Ahmedinedjad ? That’s why george didn’t want to debate him face to face. People might notice their policies and appearances are too SIMILAR.
now that i think about it, in Starship Troopers your active and passive election rights depended on if you served in the military … there’s a certain plus side to that approach in todays light, as in ‘no chickenhawks’ …
Liberty Lee, in case you revisit this thread, the following is your response to my comment:
“Heinlein once wrote that sovereignty is a word between sober and sozzled–to be ignored when you have to to wipe out a Hitler like threat. I do not believe that have to withdraw. I certainly KNOW that we are not committing genocide. We are fighting terrorism. I find it odd that no one beleives that we SHOULD win. I mean it’s one thing to think we ought to get out, it’s totally another to think we should LOSE. I must admit that when a group hates their own country enough to want it to lose a war, I find it disturbing.”
I take issue with your assertion that I hate my country so much that I want it to lose a war. You speak of war as if it is a football game…a sport. I’ve come to your defense in the past when you have commented, because I thought that debate about the issues is a healthy thing. Now, you have crossed the line in my book by insulting me by your hateful assertion that I hate my country — that I want the United States of America to lose. The only think I want to lose is the grip people who think like you have on my precious country and the Constitution…who gladly send over our children as cannon fodder…in the name of “cheap oil”. You leave me disgusted and very disappointed. I find your thinking disturbing to say the very least. PEACE – (a term non-existent in your vocabulary).
LS @ 246
LS, A war is not a game. When you commit lives to an enterprise, it’s certainly not a game. But it wasn’t done in the name of cheap oil. I DO have a hard time understanding how one justifies in their own mind having their own country lose a war. I hated that idea when my fellows collegiates protested Vietnam, and I hate it even more now when the enemy is so far more vicious. I really don’t understand the thinking behind having your country’s lives committed to battle and then not doing everything you would do to win. Because winning is more than a game; it’s survival.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 240
I certainly don’t approve of that without the woman’s consent, but if you read Time Enough for Love his heart was in the right place.
Spiritcatcher @ 244
Iran is NOT a democratic country. It’s run by the Ayatallahs. And Ahmedinedjad’s mind justifies the Holocaust. Being Jewish, I support Israel and believe Iran is an Islamo-Fascist dictatorship. I, for one, want to see the Kurds and the Sunnis strong enough to stand up to Iran and help us and Israel take out Iran’s nukes.
LibertyLee @ 247
You’re right, war is not a game and neither is national security. National security is not determined by who gets more in the “W” column in the box score of wars. Wasting our armed forces in a country that was no threat to us harms our national security.
I have a hard time understanding someone who believes that the only decision allowed is one to commit our country’s lives to battle, and after that, we must continually pour ever-increasing resources into it regardless of how badly it goes. But you’ve never come close to addressing that question so far, I don’t expect you will now.
The decision to commit our forces to battle can be wrong. Even if it’s made in good faith and for the stated reasons, which this wasn’t.
Bullshit. There was no force in Iraq that could threaten the survival of the United States before the invasion, there is certainly none now. There was no al-Qaeda in Iraq before the war. The “winning” course for America would have been to take the fight to the people who attacked us, not pull forces out to invade a country that didn’t and create more enemies. That’s the “win” that those of us here are trying to move the country back to.
But you apparently hate your country so much that you’re willing to see our armed forces ground down forever mediating a civil war that was triggered by the nonsensical decisions of your unquestioned leader, rather than turn our resources against those who, even if they aren’t the existential threats to the nation that your fantasy, are real threats.
LibertyLee @ 249
By the way, you didn’t exactly object to anything i said, did you ?
edited and released by mods
QuakerGirl @ 93
It could be a lack of the appropriate degree of cynicism or maybe the Republicans greased his palm. A lot of campaign finance cash for the future will often buy a lot of votes. Funny how Rahm Emanuel knew exactly who to call.
When cash it being handed out by the suitcase and there’s no accounting then the last guy to see the money needs to be put in jail. We simply don’t allow money to be tossed around that way. It would violate our traditional family values.
Redshift @ 98
It should be easy enough for someone with video skills to put together a simple video showing Bush saying the one thing and then the other with a date labeling each, so the viewer will know they’re being played.
Show ‘em up as liars and conmen (not to disparage conmen) and the public will trash ‘em. They’re already giving about twice as much money to Dem candidates as to Repubs. Come election time it will be a complete wipeout.
Still, the most effect can be gained by convincing the public in states with Repub senators and reps to go with Dems on impeachment and conviction. How could we focus and direct our message to get those folks on board — presuming their moron senators would follow suit to save their jobs?
katymine @ 124
From what I read she didn’t suggest anything for homeowners, only for mortgage lenders (typical DLC behavior).
They keep labeling her as So*ial*st and it’s pretty funny. I think Republicans don’t know what a So*ial*st is.
fdl reader @ 152
And, it’s not just being different to be different, as Obama seems to be saying. It’s to state who we are and what we want and then showing clearly how that differs from our competitors. Don’t let them muddy the waters and blur the distinctions. It’s important for the public to know precisely what each candidate is and might do as president. The same goes for the political party label — it has to really mean something.
LS @ 199
Play it out:
Are we EVER going to leave Iraq? Sure
When? Nobody knows.
Why? Nobody knows.
Will it be a loss at that time?
If we wait 50 years and then leave will it be a loss at that time?
If it’s only a matter of how we feel about leaving, then apparently there are some people who would rather see a long slow trail of coffins than to feel personally dejected about having ‘lost’.
This ISN’T a good political argument. It isn’t effective to insult people’s feelings. But, sadly, it is the truth.
Should another soldier have to go to Iraq to die, lose limbs or lose their minds, just so the ones who have gone before and suffered won’t feel bad about their personal loss(es)?
How long must the war go on and how many soldiers must suffer before the ones who have already gone and suffered won’t feel so bad?
If the last soldier in Iraq before we leave dies, will it matter whether that’s tomorrow or 50 years from now? Would any soldier who has been there feel better knowing somebody else died after they suffered?
This is serious stuff. Our leaders can’t afford to be taking direction from suffering veterans. This situation requires Leadership, not followership.
Bush is a twit moron war criminal traitor or irrelevant, depending upon your attitude. We have to convince the Public and that will translate into political change — forcing the hand of the NeoCons and their sympathizers in Congress.
Losing? We aren’t going to lose by withdrawing. We only lose by doing stupid things like staying there.
LibertyLee @ 221
Evidence?
I believe we should win. It’s just that there is no victory to be found in Iraq.
Who says we should LOSE? Cite?
That’s what perplexes us about Bush and the NeoCons. Why do they hate America so much they would invade an innocent country, slaughter innocents, waste away our military and our treasury?
brendan @ 118
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..006837.php
Ledeen apparently mentioned his meetings with Iranian exiles in Rome to the newly appointed Ambassador, Mel Stembler. And Stembler was supposedly unaware of these activities and contacted the CIA to see if they had some sort of covert operation going on. Tenet freaked out, because the NSC/DOD…who was apparently running Ledeen’s activities, hadn’t notified HIM. Stembler contacted the wrong group…and back-channelled this illegal covert activity to the CIA (the only appropriate group to be undertaking this).
Some think that Ghorbanifar was involved in getting faked documents to Ledeen, or setting up their dissemination to the Italian and British intelligence services…who were then to pass them to the US as “independent” sources proving the veracity of the documents. Each set was to be slightly different in terms of their portfolio, but unfortunaely for the conspiracy, additional alterations were made that established that the contracts were fake.
It’s also possible that Stembler had brought Ledeen’s activities with the Iranians to the CIA for some other reason.
LibertyLee @ 249
And IRAQ is not a Democratic country under the Bush-imposed Constitution. The political stagnation is a direct result from that Constitution (which excludes the majority from having Democratic power) and the imposition of cabinets and Prime Ministers that were selected by the Bush regime. Remember that all of the prior governments were selected by Bush…and the Shiite desired ones were “vetoed”.
I notice that you exclude the 66% of the population of Iraq…the Shiites when you say that you want Iraq to take out IRAN’s Nukes…Nukes that don’t even exist except in your mind.
As far as Ayatollah’s running the country…SCIRI Ayatollahs and clerics and Sunni Mullahs are also behind their factions in the Iraqi Parliament. And Moqtada al Sadr has close affiliations with Hezbollah. ..but dislikes the Iranian-influenced SCIRI.
Islamo-Facist is a term that even Bush has abandoned after it was pointed out that it applied just about to any of the nations that he considered “allies” in the way that he applied it. And that it was an oxymoron in any other respect. It was simply a propaganda tool, created by Bush speechwriters to make “codpiece” feel like he was on a crsade against the Nazis. The Nazis (or Japanese or Mussolinis Italians) have nothing to do with Islam. In fact, if you really want to see parallels to the Fascists you have no further to look than the Bush regime…Imperialist, anti-Constitutional, xenophobic, fomenting cultural wars internally, using a Christianist nationalism.
Invading Iraq actually placed Israel at GREATER RISK that when toothless old Saddam was in place. He wasn’t interested in al-Qaida, who would have threatened him…and would have ruthlessly dealt with them if the had…and he certainly brooked no agreement with the Iranian regime. You A*P*C mentality has built this situation.