I really wasn't going to expend any energy on Jules Crittenden's attack on my post about fatherhood and masculinity, because from the outset it was so fundamentally silly that it hardly seemed worth devoting any effort to reading carefully, let alone responding to.
But then TRex, in his response, pointed out something I'd overlooked in Crittenden's post, to wit:
Look, staying home with the kids is fine, if that’s what you want to do. Nothing wrong with it. If your wife can take six months off every two years to squeeze another one out and breastfeed it, then fine. But for God’s sake stop whining about your manliness and use it. I have bad news for you. The people doing all the breeding around the world aren’t interested in consciousness-expanding gender neutrality and growing as New Age androgenoids or reducing their carbon footprints or trying to understand you in order to respect your differences or any of that. They are interested in your stuff, however, and sooner or later, they will swamp your kind out of existence. And a lot of them might not even bothering sticking around to be fathers at all while they’re at it.
This, folks, is clear and unadulterated eugenics. I know that Crittenden's friends at National Review have been trying to revive eugenics as somehow "respectable," but even John Derbyshire and Ramesh Ponnuru are smart enough to do so without appearing quite so crudely xenophobic. ("They are interested in your stuff"?)
Compare, if you will, Crittenden's formula above with that proffered by the eugenicist Madison Grant in his 1916 book The Passing of the Great Race (which was a national bestseller at the time):
We Americans must realize that the altruistic ideals which have controlled our social development during the past century, and the maudlin sentimentalism that has made America 'an asylum for the oppressed,' are sweeping the nation toward a racial abyss. If the Melting Pot is allowed to boil without control, and we continue to follow our national motto and deliberately blind ourselves to all 'distinctions of race, creed, or color,' the type of native American of Colonial descent will become as extinct as the Athenian of the age of Pericles, and the Viking of the days of Rollo.
Then there is Lothrop Stoddard's conclusion to his 1922 book, The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy, also a bestseller:
"Finally perish!" That is the exact alternative which confronts the white race. For white civilization is to-day conterminous with the white race. The civilizations of the past were local. They were confined to a particular people or group of peoples. If they failed, there were always some unspoiled, well-endowed barbarians to step forward and "carry on." But today there are no more white barbarians. The earth has grown small, and men are everywhere in close touch. If white civilization goes down, the white race is irretrievably ruined. It will be swamped by the triumphant colored races, who will obliterate the white man by elimination or absorption. What has taken place in Central Asia, once a white and now a brown or yellow land, will take place in Australasia, Europe, and America. Not to-day, nor yet to-morrow; perhaps not for generations; but surely in the end. If the present drift be not changed, we whites are all ultimately doomed. Unless we set our house in order, the doom will sooner or later overtake us all.
If Crittenden is out there reading this somewhere, I'd like him to explain to us the differences between his view of those hordes of people who are not "our kind" awaiting to invade us and that of Grant and Stoddard -- men who, as subsequent history made plain, were not only terribly wrong (particularly about the threat posed by Asians and their supposed utter unassimilability) but whose eugenics proved to be a murderously foul worldview, particularly when put into action.
I don't see how Crittenden's argument can be seen as anything other than eugenicist. Perhaps he can explain how.
Or perhaps Glenn Reynolds, who gave this post an approving link, can similarly enlighten us.
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whoa
me - 2?
Hi raven and juslin, Hello David. Now to read…
Stop the world - I want to get off!
I never look for these messages, and hence I have to admit that they fly right by me, unseen and unrecognized. The only word that comes to mind is dreadful.
oh boy - not this shit again!! the colored hordes are upon us… the supremicist mentality still rages on and on…
juslin @ 5
Is that why cities, such as NY, London, et al are targeted as being “evil”? Because of their rich stew of so many ethnicities and cultures?
1922: “But today there are no more white barbarians.”
Wow, isn’t science wonderful? From nearly extinct, they now comprise nearly 30% of the US population!
this type of thinking is always in the back of wingers minds just waiting to surface - just shows how insecure they are within themselves - damn let it goooooooooo
Race is a non-genetic social construct. Eugenics was based on a profound confusion between traits and genes. Removing individuals from a population because they possess a certain trait does not remove the gene from the population because a large number of individuals in the population may carry it recessively. As a result, the trait cannot be elminated from the population. Eugenics was and is pseudo-science.
That’s where Crittenden drops his bagel and begins to hump the desk-blotter.
That guy’s clearly never been to a NASCAR event.
Actually, I’m not at all clear about what he means by “your stuff”. And the next sentence doesn’t seem to fit: “And a lot of them might not even bothering sticking around to be fathers at all while they’re at it.” Let’s see. If “they” are going to swamp us, but many of them won’t bother being fathers… Oh, we’re to be overrun by swarthy lesbians with parthenogenetic technology?
Hugh:
You’re right; as I’ve written at my blog:
What does he mean, IF?
If the Melting Pot is allowed to boil without control, and we continue to follow our national motto and deliberately blind ourselves to all ‘distinctions of race, creed, or color,’
That train has long since left the station. My mom kicked me out when I was 15 because I had a black friend. My daughters have friends of every flavor, and always have. Makes you wonder in which century some people pretend to live.
Well, that quote is from 1916.
David Neiwert @ 14
I know, I know.
Just joshin’.
I am opposed to killing or sterilizing people for the purpose of eugenics.
Loo Hoo. @ 13
As TRex can attest, we’ve been on a downhill slide since the late Jurassic.
ohh the aryans are getting restless….hmmm lets see who we can scapegoat now….right now the sand people will do for now…. i swear this is sooo sick but of course its couched in ways to be acceptable to the winger crowd
GordonM @ 11
I believe he means they will procreate but not stick around to be parents.
David, what do you think of Robert Putnam, a wanker from Harvard who has supposedly completed a study claiming that multiculturalism makes cities unhappy and antisocial places? Seems a bit weird as a thesis, especially for someone who lives in Vancouver BC. I read about this guy in a local weekly, whose writer suggested that multicultural “unhappiness” had more to do with the melting-pot model of American society than anything else.
GordonM @ 17
But I can still run faster than David Beckham.
native American of Colonial descent
cognitive dissonance, both in 1916 & in 2007
my last word on this post - just live and let live and we’d all be the better for it imho… simple no
Loo Hoo
I feel bad that you were kicked out when you were 15.
I have a 24-year old daughter, a senior at Columbia University.
She gave me such grief when she was a teenager.
We’re great friends now, because we’ve both changed for the better.
What do these foolish people not understand about “We are all the same?”
Color doesn’t matter, place doesn’t matter. Our habits may be different or language but we all need the same things. Perhaps some day humans will all be beige and it then won’t make any difference at all.
TRex @ 21
Actually, with those tiny little forelimbs and no rules against using your tail, you are perfectly adapted to football, er, soccer. Well, football too, as long as you don’t care to be QB.
I’ve never read any Eugenics literature- seems that they viewed human reproduction as best done on the model of cattle breeding- picking the strongest, healthiest, fastest growing- etc- male animal and breeding him to a proven performing cow with big udders and wide hips..
The only thing approaching this that happened with humans for an extended period of time is with slaves-
“…the type of native American of Colonial descent will become as extinct as the Athenian of the age of Pericles, and the Viking of the days of Rollo.”
Adapt-or die. Change is the basis of survival. They will become extinct because the survivors will have evolved, while they did not.
Jonathan, thanks. My mom kicked me out in the middle of my junior year to go live with my dad. I was really upset till I realized I was the NEW GIRL ON CAMPUS! I had myself a time…
trex at 10 says-”That guy’s clearly never been to a NASCAR event.”
omg, i’m reading comments, thinking of how i’m gonna tie in what’s the difference between darker skinned blending than germans, irish, poles, etc…….all blood-blended, what’s the difference, and then i read trex and crack up…..whatever i was going to say……moot……..
i won’t even go to the dropping the bagel and humping the desk blotter…………
i love your wit.
david, as you know from my comments the other night, love your prose, no, love your use of the english language, yeah, that’s it.
{{{{LooHoo}}}}
RonD @ 28
Hence Hardball’s plummeting ratings.
From George Bush-The Unauthorized Biography: pp.48-49
From 21-23 August 1932 the Third International Congress on Eugenics was held in NY at the American Museum of Natural History, supervised by the Int’l. Federation of Eugenics Societies.
“Averell Harriman personally arranged with the Walker/Bush Hamburg-Amerika Line to transport Nazi ideologues fromGermany to NY for this meeting. The most famous among those transported was Dr. Ernst Rudin, psychiatrist at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Genealogy and Demography in Berlin, where the Rockefeller family paid for Dr. Rudin to occupy an entire floor with his eugenics “research.”
In every slimy, racist, sinful thing in Ameirca’s past and present, from 1914 on, there is a Bush family progenitor and the stamp of amorality and corruption.
This guy in the White House might just be the antichrist.
As to that very first part you quoted from Crittenden.
Nothing to do with eugenics. Nothing to do with racism. Just national prudence.
Like the French worrying about being out-bred by the Germans between 1918 and 1939.
Or like Trojans worrying about being out-bred by Greeks. Same idea, really.
Yup. Kids destined from birth to be future soldiers.
Not that the real world offers much choice. Did the Trojans have a choice?
Sure. Surrender and walk voluntarily to their deaths (the men) and into slavery (the women and children). They had that choice.
Not that I mean to say he didn’t say something else, somewhere else, that was advocacy of eugenics. I wouldn’t know.
But this that you quoted was not.
For a funny look at this notion, I strongly recommend that film IDIOCRACY. It never got a wide release, but Mike Judge pokes some serious fun at the notion of breeding intelligence out of the public.
rwcole @ 27
Ah, well according to a speaker I heard from the Jewish Defense League, there was (maybe 10 years ago? I’ll see what I can find) a Walmart operation in the deep south that hired young white women who were always pregnant. Maternity costs were covered.
Although I am opposed to Eugenics- when one views the genetic speciment now occupying the White House- one wonders if the country hasn’t lost it’s way- genetically.
“In America you’ll get food to eat
Won’t have to run through the jungle
And scuff up your feet
You’ll just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day
It’s great to be an American
Ain’t no lions or tigers-ain’t no mamba snake
Just the sweet watermelon and the buckwheat cake
Ev’rybody is as happy as a man can be
Climb aboard, little wog-sail away with me
Sail away-sail away
We will cross the mighty ocean into Charleston bay
Sail away-sail away
We will cross the mighty ocean into Charleston bay
In America every man is free
To take care of his home and his family
You’ll be as happy as a monkey in a monkey tree
You’re all gonna be an American
Sail away-sail away
We will cross the mighty ocean into Charleston bay
Sail away-sail away
We will cross the mighty ocean into Charleston bay”
Careful with that axe, eugenic.
juslin @ 5
Why else are they so horrified by the “Mexican threat” to, I guess, “America’s purity?” Feh. This sort of nonsense is beneath contempt. Well, pretty much like the last 6½ years, come to think of it…
Loo Hoo. @ 29
Good for you.
In many ways the more hurtful when it happens, the stronger it makes you, at least that’s what I’ve found.
I grew up in church houses and foster homes, or with relatives from the time I was 7 until I was 12. My dad was away in the merchant marine and my mom was in and out of state institutions with schizophrenia. I learned to be self-sufficient and I think my abilities to function very well in the most chaotic situations stems from those experiences.
We just need to be sure that it stops with us.
35, I was quite prepared to like IDIOCRACY but after seeing it, I was offended. While it had a few good scenes (the real toilet recliner) all in all it seemed to support rather then ridicule the eugenics myths/philosophy regarding intelligence breeding out. “Office Space” was a winner but I cannot recommend IDIOCRACY…
RonD @ 31
rwcole @ 37
I read somewhere that gramps Bush also was involved in a plot (never carried out) to overthrow President Franklin Roosevelt and replace him. Clearly, the family is not too interested in actual Democracy either. (By the way, didn’t we insist on Iranians voting? Ditto the Palestinians. So if they don’t vote the way we want them too, we just press for destruction. Nice
rwcole @ 27
If I recall correctly, there were certain forays in that direction in Germany in the 30s.
loohoo at 13 says-”
What does he mean, IF?
If the Melting Pot is allowed to boil without control, and we continue to follow our national motto and deliberately blind ourselves to all ‘distinctions of race, creed, or color,’
That train has long since left the station. My mom kicked me out when I was 15 because I had a black friend. My daughters have friends of every flavor, and always have. Makes you wonder in which century some people pretend to live.”
oh ((((loo hoo)))) wish you were in my family, my sister’s first boyfriend was black, 5th grade, they used to talk through the living room window, cuz we had to be in when the streetlights came on…….my parents never tried to influence it…….they said later that it was hard but it would have been wrong…….
we lived in a neighborhood where we were the first people there, then the company that built the houses went bankrupt and turned into lower income housing…….my dad lost thousands of dollars and never said a word, he was an accountant, so that hit home……i didn’t know all of this until i was grown……..the ‘black menace’ was never brought up in my household……..even though they lost money over it.
my mom, when i was in my early twenties, i had a good friend who was black, she said, that she didn’t care if my boyfriend was black, as long as he was educated……and she didn’t mean college, she meant smart……..well, he was just a friend……but mom would have been proud to have him as a son-in-law……..and they travelled in circles where that wasn’t ok………they didn’t care…….
david, considering the melding of the races, how do you feel about your daughter growing up and being with someone who isn’t a european?
Has anyone read “How the Irish became white”?
Noel Ignatiev, How the Irish Became White, (Routledge 1996)
melanin percentage did not always qualify one for whiteness, wingnuts should recall.
Loo Hoo. @ 43
You might find a few Jewish folks in the Spartacist League but I wouldn’t recommend them unless you have plenty of popcorn for the crowd. They tend to put on quite a show…..oh yeah, make sure the chairs are nailed to the floor.
RonD @ 28
Not to mention that there is no such thing as a native American of Colonial descent.
Ask any Aboriginal.
sporkovat @ 47
Right - because the Irish used to be the barbaric alien hordes.
Loo Hoo. @ 43
You guys, what are some other Jewish groups that might speak to the educational community besides the Jewish Defense League?
Some years back, I saw a speaker from the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Riveting.
Oops, I pasted in Randy’s “Rednecks” but I guess it triggered the filter, sorry mod.
So are you saying that the Irish are now NOT barbaric alien hordes?
rwcole @ 53
We ain’t aliens.
I used to drink a bit with an Irishman- and he was definately a barbaric, alien, horde.
Unfortunately he passed away recently.
jonathan at 24 says-”
Loo Hoo
I feel bad that you were kicked out when you were 15.
I have a 24-year old daughter, a senior at Columbia University.
She gave me such grief when she was a teenager.
We’re great friends now, because we’ve both changed for the better.”
my shrink tells me, your family changed because you changed…..i was saying how much my family had changed, for the better and he shot that back at me……….gave me a lot to think about……..
We just need to be sure that it stops with us.
True James. But the toughening up as a kid, I think, makes one more capable in certain ways. For instance, a lot of people are freaked about their mortgages and the stock market right now. I know I can make it unless there is a pandemic or complete breakdown in our society. I have planned accordingly.
James,
Fundies believe that whatever happens is that God determines it.
God is a creation of human thought.
We should not reject our notion of God.
We should reject that humans know what God intends.
rwcole @ 53
That was my meaning - that they perception of “other” changes.
I love Randy Newman.
dmac @ 56
My family got a lot better when I put the bottle down.
Loo Hoo. @ 60
yea but the N word shows up too much in Rednecks. My bad.
Fern- perhaps a hundred drunken and indescribable evenings- both here and in Ireland- but that’s just anecdotal.
If you want to know what God desires- you have to wait and see what happens- whatever happens- that’s what He wants–sometimes he wants some REALLY SHITTY things-
james, what is this “Walker/Bush Hamburg-Amerika Line”
rwcole @ 63
It’s true too that the Scots-Irish in the Maritimes can be a lively lot. I used to know some Newfoundlanders…
I’m confused if whites are better then why are Conservatives so worried about them dying out. Is not better pay for the same job, lower arrest and conviction rates, and all the other perks that go with being white not enough?
Also I don’t believe this whole whites dying out fear mongering story. I think that the fearmongers just don’t count as white the kids of mixed marriages. If those kids were counted even partially what would the true numbers be?
If anything the succes of intergration in America is the real story.
Granted for the conservatives this is a disaster because it means less of an audience for racial fear mongering.
From Clare To Here
By Nanci Griffith
Four Who Shared This Room,
we Were Caught Up In The Crack.
sleeping Late On Sundays,
and We Never Got To Mass.
and It’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long, Long Way,
gets Further By The Day:
it’s A Long, Long Way From Clare To Here.
friday Comes Around,
we’re Only Into Fighting.
my Ma Would Like A Letter Home,
but I’m Too Tired For Writing.
and It’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long, Long Way,
gets Further By The Day:
it’s A Long, Long Way From Clare To Here.
almost Breaks My Heart,
when I Think Of My Family.
i Told Them I’d Be Coming Home,
with My Pockets Full Of Green.
and It’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long, Long Way,
gets Further By The Day:
it’s A Long, Long Way From Clare To Here.
the Only Time I Feel All Right,
is When I’m Into Drinking.
it Can Sort Of Ease The Pain Of It,
and It Levels Out My Thinking.
and It’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
.
it’s A Long, Long Way,
gets Further By The Day:
it’s A Long, Long Way From Clare To Here.
sometimes Hear The Fiddles Play,
maybe It’s Just A Notion.
i Dream I See White Horses Dance,
upon That Other Ocean.
and It’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long, Long Way,
gets Further By The Day:
it’s A Long, Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long, Long Way,
gets Further By The Day:
it’s A Long, Long Way From Clare To Here.
it’s A Long, Long Way From Clare To Here.
TRex @ 32
I think it’s because you never know what to expect with him. He can sound like a reasonable person one day, and a complete republican schill the next. He has an identity crisis, perhaps. Or maybe it’s just a rating crisis brought on by his self-respect.
Newfoundlanders is it—sounds fuckin DANGEROUS!!
dmac: No, I’m not worried that Fiona might marry someone nonwhite in the least.
Why, are you?
I have to say, I think FDL totally missed it here with the racism claims. Reading through the original crittenden article, there’s not even a hint of racism, implied or otherwise. All I read was a simple argument saying that if you want there to be more people in the world with your ideals, have more kids, along with the claim that the whole “consciousness-expanding gender neutrality and growing as New Age androgenoids” crowd aren’t doing themselves any favors by not having as many kids as they can… nothing wrong with that argument
rwcole @ 70
But they are great dogs!
OT: Jay Rosen gave a nice shoutout to the folks at firedoglake in this diary. He is looking for help crafting a 1,200 word reply letter in response to an LA Times article about the differences between actual reporting & blogging.
And David, as a mom, I would take you over Jule’s type any damn day. My son had a deadbeat dad and shame on Jules. What a difference a man like you could have made in my son’s life!
ed:
Read carefully.
The word “racism” is used nowhere.
We’re talking about eugenics here. Please address that point.
Crittenden must be a Lothrop Stoddard fan, eh? Note the use of the word “swamp”.
But really though, this shouldn’t surprise anyone who knows about the screeds “nice respectable conservative” William F. Buckley wrote while his good friend Westbrook Pegler was still alive. Ever since the 1880s, they’ve been all about the Southern Strategy — they just didn’t start calling it that until Kevin Phillips came along.
Loo Hoo. @ 13
So glad you’re a better parent and that you’re open to your kids having friends of all kinds.
Hoo
I think he’s got both gooper viewers and dem viewers and he tries to keep em all. Pretty tall order in these days when we’re so united an all!
Jules Crittenden? What kind of bowtie & knickers sissy name is that? Does his mommy know he’s writing such naughty things? Perhaps his understanding of the world is limited because his mommy won’t let him cross the street to play with the other children.
But seriously… Reviving the worst and ugliest side of American culture from a century ago is apparently the goal of modern conservatism. These are the ?guys? who give us white guys a bad name.
rwcole @ 70
the ones I knew had made partying a fine art and a vocation.
David Neiwert @ 75
But if they are writing about the need for dominance by the white race, isn’t that about race? Even if they wouldn’t classify it as race but just as “the other”?
raven
yeah- good dogs- if ya have a skip loader to clean up after em with.
Whisky Fire is back up?
dmac, I love your parents! What a very cool and enlightened kind of upbringing you enjoyed.
david ehrenstein at 38-
you know i love you BUT
please list the artist when you post lyrics, not all of us are as well informed as you…………..and i hate having to google them to find out, as@hole, i’m on dialup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(said with love and reverence, i actually read his blog)
“and vocation”
Yeah- drinkin’s too fuckin important to be treated as a fuckin HOBBY- with AMATUERS.
ed @ 72
Keep em barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen cooking, eh? Eugenics is a core issue in that segment of the population.
rwcole @ 82
And a mop!
Twain @ 81
Because the concept of “our kind” includes a lot more than race - also intellectual capability, heterosexuality, and able-bodied-ness. Among other things.
David Neiwert @ 75
I have a seizure disorder and there was a long time in this country when epileptics were discouraged from becoming parents. Same is true for people with other disabilities.
rwcole @ 86
I always hated Amatuers myself, you’re either on the bus or off the bus. . .Neal Cassidy
heh, ok david, I guess I was mixing responses to TRex’s article with this one. In any case, i have to say there’s a difference between “state sponsored eugenics” and having more kids because you think you’re a good parent. I see no advocacy for the former in crittenden’s article and plenty of the latter. what’s the issue with that?
furthermore, eugenics has such a nasty connotation that I think it was highly suspect to slam crittenden with that label when he’s clearly not suggesting anything like the sort of nazi tactics that are being discussed here.
Eugenecists probably have to be a little cautious as the practice their craft nowadays.
They’re so easily misunderstood.
ed - ask around. How many liberal / Democrats grew up in conservative / Republican homes? Lots. The idea that you will breed more of the ideologically same as you is preposterous. The entire march of history disproves it.
Where are the Vikings of Rollo? They’re social democrats.
i have to say i’m somewhat shocked at the knee-jerk responses to my original statement. would you have the same response to a suggestion that if you don’t like the machismo white-trash bs then don’t marry one and have his kid?
james @ 33
The Bush family support Nazis, but I thought the Nazis put the weakminded into camps and didn’t let them breed.
ed
“don’t marry one and have his kid”
Spounds like eugenics to me.
GordonM @ 94
I’m one. . . and Norwegian-Irish to boot.
james says wisely at 41-”Good for you.
In many ways the more hurtful when it happens, the stronger it makes you, at least that’s what I’ve found.
I grew up in church houses and foster homes, or with relatives from the time I was 7 until I was 12. My dad was away in the merchant marine and my mom was in and out of state institutions with schizophrenia. I learned to be self-sufficient and I think my abilities to function very well in the most chaotic situations stems from those experiences.
We just need to be sure that it stops with us.”
((((james)))) ((((loo hoo terry))))
i hope you found a way to find that secure feeling that everyone should know in their life………whether self-made or brought on by someone who shows you that…….
i had a friend that lost her parents and lived with her aunt and uncle, there was no room for her and her sister, but they lived there anyway…..it was right in my face how lucky i was every time i went there……….she is an incredible person………and taught me how you are one step away from adversity……..the real kind…….all the time…..
Loo Hoo. @ 43
Tikkun. They’re great! They certainly aren’t ADL.
GordonM @ 94
I agree that the specifics of an ideology are likely not directly passed down through generations, but to suggest that the ‘nature vs nurture’ argument has already been settled is ridiculous, and people are certainly entitled to hold the opinion that their nurturing has some impact
ed @ 95
There is no gene for “cooties”.
rwcole @ 27