From The Producers of “War in Iraq”By: Jane Hamsher Wednesday August 22, 2007 11:41 am |
Comes the heavily anticipated blockbuster, “War in Iran!”
Because of copyright issues they’ll be shooting from the exact same script. It’s sort of a Thunderball/Never Say Never Again thing. Don’t worry, nobody will notice.
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3
Zed. And Hello Jane.
Hi Jane… I think you meant Iran on the line right under the video.
Also, I thought I’d throw in a link to the online action center where people can do something to put a stop to this this time around.
Fox Attacks: Iran
single digits, probaby all i can hope for today…
Is it not obvious that Iran is the second element of the Axis of Evil and needs at least to have their nukes removed?
Hello Jane…
hi Jane
I saw this too. Really scary!
From the very moment they started talking about Iran it sounded like the workup to Iraq. Just substitute nuclear arms for WMD inspections and so on. Gah!
This is a cool video.
Isn’t Al Qaeda sunni and Iran is Shia?
Faux hysterics! Yikes!
They’re really prepping (and pumping up) for this anniversary of 9/11.
And Joe-Lie looks tired out, fogged out, dragged out, as usual.
LibertyLee @ 5
And while we’re there, let’s go ahead and kill a couple hundred thousand women and children and destroy their infrastucture just for good measure.
Then Iran will be ready for Democracy.
Jeebus, LL, don’t you guys ever learn?
I was going to ask if anyone still believed the administration, but I can see someone still does.
I don’t think it’s going over well this time around, though. Thoroughly disgusted people have watched their kin go back and back and back again to the war, and for what?
Iran, Syria, pffft. We have to concentrate on our own defense. On our own bridges, too. On trade deficits. On housing foreclosures. We are in TROUBLE.
mc @ 13
I think it is up to a million that have to get killed.
A re:post..but Digby points out the “thinking” that is going on and is still driving American policy.
Another (snip) From “Hail Caesar”:
The wisest course would have been for President Bush to use his nuclear weapons to slaughter Iraqis until they complied with his demands, or until they were all dead. Then there would be little risk or expense and no American army would be left exposed. But if he did this, his cowardly electorate would have instantly ended his term of office, if not his freedom or his life.
The simple truth that modern weapons now mean a nation must practice genocide or commit suicide. Israel provides the perfect example. If the Israelis do not raze Iran, the Iranians will fulfill their boast and wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Yet Israel is not popular, and so is denied permission to defend itself. In the same vein, President Bush cannot do what is necessary for the survival of Americans. He cannot use the nation’s powerful weapons. All he can do is try and discover a result that will be popular with Americans.
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..tting.html
no no jane – we go through syria first – remember joeliarman? he set it all up….
LibertyLee @ 5
Can’t you block this [edited by mod] or do I have to take him or her on like I did that other punk?
raven @ 19
Let him through. While his ideas on reality are different than ours, he should be allowed to post here. Although, I’d like to see you take him!
LL @ 5–Why not remove the nukes from everybody else while we’re at it….. including us and our so-called “allies” in the area. And who says Iran has nukes for sure???
I can’t even believe someone would seriously bring up Gerson’s putrid blatherings about the “Axis of Evil” here.
blergh.
And from Robert Baer at Time Magazine:
why do neocons love war in the ME sooo much? ahhh but here’s the rub… THEY wont FIGHT!!!!
I have never figured out whether the entity is a dude or a woman. The handle is unisexual.
LibertyLee @ 5
Liberty Lee,
Curiousity compels me to ask why you think Iran is evil? Are you fearing that you are going to be attacked in your bed some night? We have far bigger things to worry about than Iran.
The TRUE “axis of evil” is to be found in the Bush Mal-Administration. Accept no substitutes.
Biodun @ 24
Perhaps the comments are satire and not to be taken seriously.
LibertyLee @ 5
They don’t have any nukes.
Badwater @ 27
That is what I thought. Sarcasm and irony.
AZ Matt @ 25
Most of them very, very close to home….
LibertyLee @ 5
No, it is not obvious.
Got some credible evidence? Let’s see it.
They are like us, they have loose kooks.
Libert Lee @ 5: “Is it not obvious that Iran is the second element of the Axis of Evil and needs at least to have their nukes removed?”
What is it about GWB that gives him such credibility in your mind?
Are you aware of his personal history of failure at nearly everything he has touched?
Why would you agree to follow him into war?
LS @ 27
Actually, the nukes are hidden with Iraq’s WMDs.
(Point of order: Would that be sarcasm or irony? Or both?)
Great picture here: http://bp0.blogger.com/_NVYC-f…..dubyat.gif
Bustednuckles @ 32
And, unfortunately, an exceptionally high percentage of them are in the Bush administration….
SnarKassandra @ 27
It would be really hard to maintain that prissy tone for so long and so consistently if it were satire.
gotta run – be back later – jane christy et al – great postings wow
Ya know, usually studios wait several decades before they trot out tired remakes…
Just a thought …
Has anyone ever seen Liberty Lee and “Charles,” the infamous Troll of Balkinization, in the same place at the same time?
Perhaps they are one and the same.
Jane!
Boy, when you show up, everyone drops what they’re doing and flocks to your new post. It dawned on me I was talkin’ to myself downstairs….
Semi-EPU, but have you seen the FreedomsWatch website?
It looks like it was put together by an intern from the official Colbert Report stock photo collection. I only wish there were a ‘Freedom Swatch’ so we could get the maker of timepieces to bump them elsewhere.
(Actually, that would make a good parody: the ‘Freedom Swatch’, where the time to think about leaving is six months from now.)
Badwater @ 35
That was funny!!
juslin @ 21 – they won’t fight, they only want the profits.
mc @ 32
Whichever it is, it will go right over poor Lee’s head.
jim oconnor @ 32
What makes you think LL would risk its’ lily-white body to prosecute the Criminal-in-Chief’s war? Much less get its’ lily-white hands dirty?
LL isn’t about to volunteer to die for Idiot’s imperial ambitions. That’s for the little people, you know, the ones who pay taxes…
Most certainly NOT. Every now and again, but rarley, there’s a faint attempt at reasonable argument.
“How much longer do you want to waste our money
($3 Billion a Month?) (
and our heroes lives!)
arming and training the terrorists?”
Haven’t we learned that the best thing to do with trolls is ignore them?
It’s more like $2 billion a week!
mc @ 34
What is the noun for WRY?
Is it not obvious that in putting lipstick on a pig you have not only wasted the lipstick but abused the pig?
jnfr @ 22
Oh,.my.god. There is no IF to Iranians uniting if we attack their country. We would; we do. WHY would any idiot think that other (furriners, y’know) would react any differently?
SnarKassandra @ 9
That is correct. And Saddam was a secularist who didn’t like either religious sect. He was able to keep all the factions in check by being a ruthless pr*ck. Now Iraq will likely split apart along religious/ethnic lines into Islamic Theocracies. The women are already far worse off than they were under Saddam’s rule.
Bushco and the media were able to conflate AQ with Saddam in spite of the reality of them having been enemies.
Now they’re conflating Iran and AQ the same way they did with Iraq and AQ. Its not very likely that Iran would support AQ terrists in Iraq. Its possible that Iran would support Shiite factions, but not Sunni. In fact the US has been shoring up the Sunnis lately.
yellowdog jim @ 47
Try $9 billion a month not $3 billion, but you got the rest right.
montag @ 36
They themselves say they have nukes. And despite their being signatories of the anti-profileration treaties refuse to adhere to the IEAA. So yes, I would support military action against Iran to prevent them from using them against us or Israel; Israel did it to Iraq in 1982 and can do so again.
SnarKassandra @ 51
Wryness. Good enough, anyway. :)
Iran may not have nukes, but we do, and bush will probly drop them on Tehran…who cares about a few million radiation deaths when the prize is hundreds of billions of petrodollars.
TJ @ 47
Lee’s not really a troll. Pathetically misguided, but not a troll. As far as anyone can tell, his/her questions are asked with the utmost sincerity, and he/she is unfailingly polite.
SnarKassandra @ 49
Wryness?
Brisingamen @ 46
LL likes to drop in, throw a stinky something into the mix and is then too cowardly to stay around. Just a neo-con lover with no cred.
tejanarusa @ 53
Oppressed people don’t like being oprressed. They (and their women) would welcome the return to the Westernization they had with the Shah.
LibertyLee @ 5
No, not really.
how about this:
we GIVE them all the nukes they want.
They use One: ….
they know we got ICBMs still, right?
burnspbesq @ 58
please
Biodun @ 48
GAAAK!
okay, thanks.
SnarKassandra @ 10
Well, yes, sorta, mostly.
Bob in HI
Fern @ 58
Rye can also be a noun although it is usually a grain.
Twain @ 61
Ummmm…I’m here (moderated so there’s a time delay)…and I pay a LOT of taxes; probably more than you do since I get lumped into that category many on the left want to tax higher than the rest.
burnspbesq @ 58
Until the other thread. I take offense at being accused of hating my country and wanting my country to lose a war. I don’t consider that polite.
Brisingamen @ 53
thanks, i needed that.
LibertyLee @ 5
It smells around here like you forgot to wash under that tail of yours.
Snarkassandra, you understand the religious affiliations of Iraq better than the Repubs on the Hill.
bobschacht @ 64
Another inconvenient truth.
tejanarusa @ 53
As I said, a day or two ago, creating problems is the surest way to have problems to solve…. A united Iran is highly likely, and would probably induce them to strike back in highly creative ways, thus enabling lots of different, ineffective responses, thus enabling the war on terraaaaahhhh to go on and on and on.
I think that’s what Bush meant by forcing his successor to fulfill “America’s destiny.”
“No, we are not at war with Eurasia. Eurasia has always been our ally. We are at war with Eastasia.”
Hugh @ 64
Occuring in both solid or liquid forms. Consumption of the liquid form is restricted by law on the basis of age, however.
SnarKassandra @ 10
Cassie-
Yes. Funny, you haven’t even graduated from h.s., and yet you can clearly see just what our so-called leadership was completely unaware of for years (and may still be unaware of; it wouldn’t surprise me).
The Walrus is foaming at the mouth to attack Iran;
HEMMER: One final step here, too, that I want to take with you. You told one of our producers earlier today that you don’t know if it’s true — and you’ve made that clear in our interview here, that you don’t know what the odds are or are not against that — but you hope it’s true. Why do you hope it’s true?
BOLTON: Absolutely. I hope Iran understands that we are very serious, that we are determined they are not going to get a nuclear weapon capability, and unless they change the strategic decision they’ve been pursuing for close to 20 years, that that’s something they better factor into their calculations.
snip
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..ix-months/
tejanarusa @ 53
I’m quite sure Bush neither knows nor cares what the actual outcome will be. He’s answering to his “higher father”, and reality doesn’t intrude at all.
Got an email. Robert Greenwald has an open letter and is asking for volunteers to call networks calling them on the Fox/Iran baiting.
SnarKassandra @ 16
Lemme see if I got this right. We gotta kill them before they kill us, because they’re killers, right?
Blech.
Bob in HI
Bustednuckles @ 74
The walrus is Paul.
Okay, a little off topic. But I was sent a little snippet yesterday that I though I’d share.
President Bush was delivered the news that 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed in Iraq. To everyone’s surprise the color drained from his face and he looked genuinely shocked. He put his head in his hands and just stared down at his desk for several minutes.
Finally he looked up and said, “Dick, just exactly how many is a Brazilian?”
What a damning video. I am so ashamed of what we have let our media become. Bob Greenwald!
LS @ 69
I tried to answer you politely by pointing out that if you don’t WIN a war, isn’t that the same as LOSING it? We cannot afford to lose having committed our nations troops’ lives and scared honor into the battle. We should be trying to find out how to WIN. And I posed my question to ask what conditions would anyone here take–short of just quitting–as Victory? I haven’t heard one.
I just watched the video – and all I can say is I’m glad I don’t need to watch American news.
Noxious. I actually had no idea.
SufiLizard @ 79
OMG, Fresca on the keys!
Diane @ 70
I read a lot of news and listen to liberal talk radio a lot and I guess I pay more attention than Fox Noise or the repubs.
Uh-oh — US attacks Iran, but Iran doesn’t have nukes. However, Pakistan does.
And we’ve got oodles of troops and 2 or 3 aircraft carriers within range…
Question: Is it likely that Pakistan would come to Iran’s aid in this manner?
LibertyLee @ 5
Are you referring to the nukes our “intelligence” community claims they have? The same intelligence community who claimed Saddam Hussein had Nukes? Are you kidding me?
As George Bush says – Fool me once – won’t be fooled again.
Is it not now obvious from LL’s comment at 67 that he/she is a troll, or at least trollish today? (Raven would eat him/her alive.)
SnarKassandra @ 82
That “reading” thing will get you into trouble. Next thing you know, you’ll be “thinking.” Before you know it, you’ll be “doing” and other such things.
*g*
By the way, when do the 2032 presidential primaries start? 2028?
SufiLizard @ 79
One of my favorite jokes of all time.
Brisingamen @ 84
Do you mean ” Is it likely that Pakistan would come to Iran’s aid in this matter in this manner?
Brisingamen @ 84
Umm, not very likely (although, once they start flying around, who knows?). Pakistan and Iran are not great friends with each other. And, if Musharraf gave the order to nuke an aircraft carrier or two, the least of his worries would be the US cutting off his support payments.
That has got to be the best neocon propaganda piece I’ve seen in a while; dressed up as an anti disinformation ad. Good god, our electorate can barley read, let alone discern truth from polemics as shown on this waste of blog-space.
LibertyLee @ 62
Well, not having seen the LL person before today (haven’t been online much recently), I was at first reading his/her comments I took them as sarcasm. This one settles any debate; this person is a troll. That being the case, this is my last word on that subject.
I bet Cassie can give Bush a productive lesson or two…
The cheneyBu$hCo regime’s demand:
“Failure is Not an Option!”
no, it’s guaranteed.
retirin’ in five @ 86
I’m glad I didn’t have to lest I be accused of being inflammatory!
raven @ 73
If you talk to the Iranians in your restaurants who fled the Shah, you would know that most of the Iranians didn’t want the Islamo-Fascists controlling their country and want a return of the Royal Family and the pro-Western government that existed until Jimmy Carter sold them out.
Peterr @ 88
One of my dem opponents already has a website up! But he is a jerk and he won’t win.
Brisingamen @ 84
Iran doesn’t need Pakistani nukes to hit us. They have a 350,000 man army right next door. And with the British leaving Basra, it seems all too easy to imagine Iran striking at our Southern supply routes, leaving our Army very vulnerable.
Of course we would then bomb them even harder, but that wouldn’t make the situation any easier, would it?
montag @ 90
Assuming of course that Musharraf is still in power at that point and is the guy with the finger on the nuclear trigger.
SnarKassandra @ 96
hey Snark, you a guard or a forward?
raven @ 100
Guard. You looking at my facebook?
Brisingamen @ 84
The Pakistanis are saving their nukes for the Indians.
Raven @88 — Exactly. I’m wondering if a rash of Islamic brotherhood (i.e. the US is trying to eradicate us!) might break out.
Why am I reminded so often these days of Quinn’s “Takers” and “Leavers?”
Wise Ishmael
a quote from downstairs and a point on topic wherever we talk about war;
how long have I been saying the democrats can deal with some of the republicans?
how long?
we CAN get the votes of a successful impeachment
first, we deal with just a few, then as the trial goes forward the evidence will force others to come to us for more dealing
in less then 6 months, according to ther cia and bolton, bush plans an attack against Iran
we might be able to inoculate ourselves from that action if he is under impeachment, it will be painfully obvious an attack would be to forstall the trial
we must deal, we must begin the proceeding in congress and get the vote to impeach, that part will be easy
the senate will be more difficult but WE MUST bring these criminals to the bar of justice BEFORE they begin yet another war
jane, there is an excellant book and author just featured on the tom harman show named nichols
the name of the book is “the genous of impeachment, the cure for royalism”
it is a must read, especially for pelosi
and perhaps you can arrange an emergency book salon becuase there is not much time
Snarkassandra said:
Cassie, are you running for something?
LibertyLee, face reality – there is no victory in Iraq. We destroyed a country & plunged them into civil war. We are arming both sides. We are the target of both sides. Who exactly do you expect to sign a “peace treaty” when we “win”?
LibertyLee @ 81
What the heck? I’ll bite.
OK, Lee, let’s start at the beginning.
How would you define “victory” in Iraq? And is your current definition different that the definition you subscribed to in March 2003? If so, why has it changed?
tejanarusa @ 106
Cassandra for President, 2032
The bottom line of HoJoe’s Indian nuke deal?:
I wish someone would wipe that stupid smirk off of HoJoe’s face, and force him to retire or declare him insane. This squawking chicken foreign policy is dangerous.
OT to Raven — you’ve walked your talk and you’ve earned the right to be inflammatory. LL, in contrast, is still mired stateside with the 101st Fighting Keyboardists. Let him lead the charge into Iran, Bro.
Fern @ 60
Catcher in the Wry?
burnspbesq @ 58
Anyone who uses a capital “V” in “victory”, alludes to “Starship Troopers” as a canonical text and calls Bush “the President” is a troll. She even has a tail.
Brisingamen @ 83
Not officially. Musharif’s official position is Bush GWOT supporter. He wears a different mask for his people b/c they don’t like western imperialists. Musharif is having difficulty maintaining the balancing act.
I suppose that some Pakistani’s would become insurgents. I don’t know what would happen if Musharif were overthrown.
This is the other kid’s website.
http://www.asher4president.info/
brendan @ 68
This isn’t snark or sarcasm. Its called an “ad hominem” attack, and if I were moderating, it would not have seen the light of day here on FDL. It is a form of pollution that sometimes gets toxic. Please, folks, let us not become Ann Coulters of the left.
Bob in HI
retirin’ in five @ 115
Don’ mean nothin.
Not yet. I think you have to be 35 for what she’s thinking about.
perris at 108 -
“the Genius of Impeachment” is by John Nichols, who was on the much-noticed Bill Moyers Journal program on impeachment with Bruce Fein recently. Moyers repeated the program recently because, he said, he received such a huge volume of comments and responses to it. By implication, favorable response.
1,575 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Patriots:
Don’t engage the trolls, don’t respond to ‘em, don’t read ‘em, don’t speak their names…
Fascism is here, it is the same old tired fear-mongerin’, terroist-lovin’ oligarchical snot that’s been around since Cesear and it ain’t goin’ away by yellin’ at the poor goblins. And jest remember…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE ARE MORE OF US THAN THERE ARE OF THEM!!!
SnarKassandra @ 112
Ah, I see. Well, if you continue as you are now, you’ve got my vote (my family is long-lived, so I expect to be around for that election)[g].
Heh, what Norske said.
LibertyLee @ 97
Of course they do; under the Shah, those folks had the world on a string. They’re hardly representative of Iranian opinion, no more representative now than they were in 1979.
Fern @ 98
Musharraf will likely retain much power over the military. I very much doubt that any power-sharing arrangement with Bhutto would include her controlling the military. That’s kind of what caused Musharraf to be in control in 1996. Now, I accept that this is sort of time-dependent. What happens here in November, 2008, and in 2009, may have something to do with what happens in Pakistan longer-term. Musharraf might not be able to buffalo the next president as easily as he has Bush (and our military). The next president might well make military support payments contingent upon results.
I dunno. But I can’t imagine Musharraf willingly giving up military power voluntarily.
Biodun @ 118
But first I am going to the mall to get new shoes for school and hair clips and whatever else I see that I need. But nothing from China. See y’all tonight.
School starts on Monday and I won’t be here nearly as much.
The context for brendan’s comment to Liberty Lee is from a previous thread… And Liberty Lee supplied the metaphor.
burnspbesq @ 112
Liberty Lee,
“I must admit that when a group hates their own country enough to want it to lose a war, I find it disturbing.”
here’s a quote from nichols book
the author of the bill of rights spoke about impeachment not “if” but “when”
pelosi needs a copy of this book and pronto
I have some times written about everything a bombing campaign against Iran would entail, about further destabilization in the Middle East, about increased terrorism, about deeper alienation of Moslems worldwide, but there is also the simple fact that a large chunk of the world’s oil flows through the Straits of Hormuz and any American attack on Iran, any credible threat to that oil flow whether it actually happens or not could send oil to the $150/bbl range (remember it touched briefly $80/bbl this summer with nothing going on) and set off a worldwide recession.
burnspbesq @ 112
Victory in Iraq is elimination of Islamo-Fascist terrorist funding or support from the national territory of Iraq; creation of a state which can coexist and not be a threat to its neighbours; and the creation of a state capable of sustaining commerce in its national resources; capable of assisting the US in establishing presences to stop other terrorists from territories near its territories (Iran and Syria). The WMDs were a critical argument going in. Unlike the official position, I still believe they were there and hidden in Syria.
funny, the Iranians I know are doctors and engineers and system analysts….could be they have a different viewpoint along with their different skillsets…
(and now, that IS my last feeding of a troll, I swear.)
Iran doesn’t have nukes. Iran’s leaders state that they have the right of all nations to develop a peaceful nuclear program.
The US holds Israel and India and Pakistan to much different standards than it holds Iran to.
If the US wants to see the Iranians rally together we should attack them so that they respond like the US responded to attacks on 9/11.
The Iranians have had a hair across thier ass about the US ever since the CIA helped topple Mohammed Mossadegh and installed the Shah on the Peacock Throne. They don’t see the US as having the interests of their people in mind.
There are some very repressive aspects to the Iranian regime on the other hand they have a young and well educated population and they are probably the most democratic regime in the region next to Israel.
If Iran was intent committing genocide against Jews they would likely start by removing the Jewish member of their majlis(elected body).
Iran has the largest Jewish population in the middle east outside of Israel.
If the US was smart they would tell neo-con foreign policy promoters to fu*k off.
-GSD
Hugh @ 128
Ding, ding!
The Iranians who fled the Shah are in our restaurants???
wow.
just wow.
Meanwhile I wonder what HoJoe thinks about this, April 17:
montag @ 123
I for sure agree he won’t ever give up power voluntarily – and I am not well informed enough to make any predictions about his hold on power – but he would not me talking to Bhutto if there was not some kind of threat from somewhere.
LL @ 62
You don’t know many Iranians, do you?
A lot of them came here to get away from the Shah and his secret police. More came to get away from the ayatollahs. They have a national history that goes back nearly as far as China or Egypt, and possibly with more (generally positive) influence on western civilization (go look up ’spinach’ some time).
If you’re going to claim they have nukes, you have to provide a source – a credible source, that is – to back it up. All the credible sources I’ve seen say they don’t have nukes now, and won’t for several years, less than that if we keep pushing at them. (H*ll, if I were a country in the middle east, I’d want nukes, just to protect me from the
idiotsnon-thinkers in DC.)NorskeFlamethrower @ 124
That’s what I’m talkin bout. Got ya lima charlie Norske.
At risk of doing like the two smaller Billy Goats Gruff, I must say all this talk about how much Iranians loved the Shah reminds me of a Steven Wright bit about his class in “fiction history.”
That’s not to say that everybody’s thrilled with sharia law and the ayatollahs but I don’t think they liked the Shah much better. Something about secret police and tyrannical rule just doesn’t sit well with most people.
Just the Iranians in restaurants? What about Iranians in other places?
LibertyLee @ 84
It was lost before it even got started by violating this rule:
“Now the general who wins a battle makes many
calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat:
how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose.”
Sun Tzu – 544 – 496 B.C.
SnarKassandra @ 129
sofistic @ 112
Yes, that is the comedy version. I prefer the adult one: Catch her in the Rye. Or is that the drinkers version, I forget?
Hugh @ 128:
You give neocons a lot of credit. Even if some of them have PhDs.
bobschacht @117:
It was an insult, not an ad-hominem attack.
An example of an “ad hominem” attack, which is sometimes a legitimate way of arguing, would be calling Bill Kristol a “chickenhawk” or Dick Cheney a draft-dodger, i.e. substituting an attack on the person making the argument for a rebuttal of the argument itself.
But you’re right. I’m sorry for wasting everyone’s space with that nastiness. But LibertyLee is the only troll I can recall here in two years and she therefore gets attention.
(we live in texas.
our son is 8.
he says to me:
“Dad, she’s just the Lie Fairy,
it’s not like she’s from Redneckistan or something!”
we do watch the cable, but i have very little idea what this really means, other than it cracked me up and is now my standard response to any poetic absurdities i meet.)
so
To ALL Our Brave Patriots of Redneckistan:
“How much more DO you want to spend arming and training the terraists?”
i leave them with the lingering image of all that unaccounted for weapons, supplies and cash pouring into the hands of brown people who hate America.
Speaking of puns, where is my favorite punster?
Speaking of not learning from mistakes, you’d think with at least three grand juries (DC, Seattle and Anchorage) looking into the
questionablecriminal activities of Sen. Ted Stevens, they’d be leery of naming ANOTHER public facility after him. But – no!Yesterday, in Juneau, they did it again:
Local dignitaries, scientists, educators and policymakers gathered Tuesday morning to dedicate the $51 million Ted Stevens Marine Research Institute.
The 66,000-square-foot state-of-the-art National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration laboratory at Lena Point is poised to become the world’s leading fisheries research facility, officials said.
Stranger than fiction. There were some really big demonstrations outside, but I haven’t been able to track down any pictures of them on the web yet.
Hugh @ 106
And the Indians are saving theirs for China.
LS @ 128
What group is that? That doesn’t sound like anyone around here.
My country, right or wrong — and when it’s wrong, I will fight like hell to set it right.
Does that make sense to you, Lee?
GSD @ 130
The facts are probably irrelevant. Let’s face it–some percentage of the people in this country actually enjoy living in fear, so that they may live vicariously through a “strong” leader and bathe in reflected glory.
Every society has such people, and we are no exception.
Unfortunately, in the last few years, they’re the ones who’ve hogged the microphone….
I have been reading for quite a while, but decided to delurk because I am upset with Rep. Baird. OT, but important:
Rep. Brian Baird upcoming town hall meetings:
1. Tues, Aug. 28th, 7 pm at the Cowlitz Expo Center in Longview, WA.
2. Mon, Aug. 27th, 7 pm, at Fort Vancouver High School in Vancouver, WA
If you live in his district, please come and express your concerns.
Thanks.
Bustednuckles @ 150
He’s chilling out in France…
Bustednuckles @ 150
France
Again: It’s not clear the entity is a dude or a woman…
Hugh @ 131
well, if there’s going to be a world wide recession anyway, a scapegoat would be convenient. (just joking – i hope)
Ahh, vacation for the man?
angie @ 137
I don’t understand this either. Did they follow us home, and then go out to eat?
“War with IRAN? Now we’ll have to shop even harder!” sign here:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..-iran.html
LibertyLee @ 100
I think they remember the elected government they had until 1953 when the CIA and the British overthrew the Mossadehg government and installed the Shah and his repressive regime. They already had a democracy until British Petroleum objected to sharing the oil pie.
And they have the toobz in France, can’t drop us a line?
Wazzupwitdat?
I hope he is having a blast.
LibertyLee @ 82
The word missing from your vocabulary is STALEMATE (noun), (synonyms: deadlock, dead end, impasse, stalemate, standstill).
a situation in which no progress can be made or no advancement is possible; “reached an impasse on the negotiations.”
You should learn to think in more shades than pure white and pure black.
Is that the speech Napoleon gave to his staff before Waterloo, after having “conquered” Russia?
The Bush administration has been trying to figure out how to “win” for quite a few years now– longer than the entire span of WW II. And every time they huddle, when they break from the huddle, it seems like they’ve lowered the bar defining “win”.
How about this as a definition of “victory:” Getting out before there are more unnecessary deaths and unnecessary lives crippled.
Bob in HI
LibertyLee @ 84
Bustednuckles @ 159
He did, a brief one, about ten days or so ago. Mentioned something about the difficulties of different keyboard layout.
Bustednuckles @ 164
Maybe Punaise needed to opt-out of thinking about the horrors that we comment on here – I have to do that from time to time, just stay off the computer, turn off the radio (no cable, so that’s no problema) and ignore the outside world, to keep from getting seriously depressed. Then I come back renewed, always starting with my favorite, most reliable, beloved fem-blog [g].
GSD @ 134
Wow, good work. I thought it was illegal to spell out the basic historical facts regarding Iran.
It’s amazing how misinformed Americans are about Iran.
I went to high school with Iranian expats. One group of them had fled the shah’s repression, and another group of shah supporters fled in advance of his demise fearing a backlash. The two groups didn’t interact too much, except for this one girl from one side and guy from the other.
Let’s just say that our English lit class had little trouble catching on to the conflict presented in Romeo and Juliet.
tejanarusa @ 123
man he would be great for a book salon
Biodun @ 156
he said he’s “de-talksing”.
see his facebook page, if you can.
(which seems to suggest he has returned from the continent.(?))
The Iranians I know who came here to get away from the Shah are citizens – American citizens. (Restaurant, yes … but anyone who’s met their food understands.) They celebrated after the swearing-in with dizi and kalle pache.
SufiLizard @ 164
Much easier to gain popular support for a war/attack against them that way….
montag @ 167
What a lame excuse! LOL. I bet he’ss chilling on a lovely beach, or spending hours strolling the Tuileries, museums, or whatever, besides puns, lights his fire.
Liberty Lee, it is not our country we hate, it is our government and its policy of interfering in the domestic affairs of countries around the world. We are committing war crimes by attacking countries that posed no threat to our national security. If this is what you are defending, simply because its America doing it, so it must be OK, then you are truly among the lost.
LS @ 131
The problem is that if you don’t want to win or find a way to win, then what do you want? It seems like when I try to ask what would it take to not give up, there is no answer. So it emotionally feels like the proponents don’t want their country to win. I apologize sincerely if that was taken the wrong way…but I am really trying to see if there’s any other solution anyone on the left has other than “get the hell out of Dodge and devil be done with the details”…
tejanarusa @ 165
That’s why God smiled when Alexander Cartwright invented baseball (Abner Doubleday? please — it is to laugh). Nothin’ wrong with a couple of hours of escape every night.
Ed*ard Teller @ 147
Perhaps they could leave space in the name plaques so that they could add in “Convicted felon” later?
LibertyLee @ 98
Isn’t that a bit like talking to the White Russians in Paris after the Revolution? Those Iranians are far from a random sample of the Iranian population. BTW, I was in Iran 3-4 times during the days of the “Royal Family and the pro-Western government,” and I don’t need you to tell me your fantasies about what the people of Iran want.
Bob in HI
SeamusD @ 176
we don’t hate our government, we hate the depraved criminals that have abused our government, the depraved criminals that have thrown our government under the bus, that have trashed our constitution, that have tunred our government into some kind of private tool
we want our government back
LibertyLee @ 68
*sniffle*
with what troops does shrub plan to attack Iran (planning a special draft of young rethugs, is he?).. or is he going to try to retest that old and utterly discredited pre-Powell military doctrine that air power alone is sufficient to win a war (remember that debate in the Clinton admin?)
LOL. That’s our boy.
I guess I need to block out some time and figure out how to do Facebook. Do you need pix? (given the name, sort of implied). Can you do it without publicly putting up your real name? Being a woman and having a fairly unique real name, I prefer to avoid that.
on lyndon larouches site after an interview with nichols;
SnarKassandra @ 103
Point, or shooting? I figured you for a guard, and I’m betting on “point”, because you’re so good at sizing up a situation and organizing a response.
Bob in HI
libery lee at 56 says-”They themselves say they have nukes. And despite their being signatories of the anti-profileration treaties refuse to adhere to the IEAA. So yes, I would support military action against Iran to prevent them from using them against us or Israel; Israel did it to Iraq in 1982 and can do so again.”
i am late to the thread, and others probably took this on….but….
no, lee, they have not said they have nukes…they are about 10 years-if everything went perfectly and IF they get other things they need to do it, which they can’t because of sanctions…so, NOT TRUE, and more importantly, NOT TRUE in the future since they can’t get the parts to build the big bad nuclear machine…..they have completely cooperated with the ieaa, just ask them……..they publish reports, ya know? and there was a show on not too long ago about it, interviewing them……plus other interviews i have seen…….
you used to come here for dialogue, and as you know, i was one of the ones defending you, but i hafta say, lately you are just spitting out propoganda, and acting kinda confrontational……how ’bout getting back to facts and discourse, eh?
tejanarusa @ 123
Last Friday Bruce Fein and Bob Barr were on the Commonwealth Club’s broadcast on KQED and gave a lot of insightful comments about impeachment and the overstepping of powers by the Bushies
Here
Scroll down to The American Freedom Agenda: The Nation’s Best Soft Diplomacy and click “Listen”
Or here and click “listen”
It’s on real media so you’ll want to be using firefox or a mac if you don’t want your computer to crash like it will with ie
I believe that any attack on Iran would like be limited to massive aerial and sea bombardment and perhaps some special forces on the ground.
The US literally doesn’t have the troops to commit to a ground force.
But the neo-cons are pushing their usual fantasy as reality.
Victor Davis Hansen(one of the Hansen brothers from Slapshot, no doubt) has told us the Iranians are “paper tigers” who will not fight.
Tell that to the Iraqis who faced the Iranian “human wave” assaults against fixed positions in the Iran/Iraq war.
-GSD
The US would like to think that they can limit the response, but we know how wrong Bush’s war gamers have been. Needless to say a large bombardment of Iran would likely be the start of something big not the end.
selise @ 160
Gareth Porter on Iran’s scapegoat status and the White house diplomadiocy. Meanwhile Asian countries want their oil, and they’ve been shut out of Saudi Arabia.
check out the lead over at think progress right now;
OK, I left our intrepid punster a message.
Bustednuckles @ 151
je suis back!
john in sacramento @ 185
i just listened to the podcast too… very glad to know their are republicans willing to say what needs to be said.
perris @ 191
sorry to divert traffic but the general is live blogging right now at think progress
punaise @ 193
Ask, and you shall receive!
punaise @ 187
We missed you – welcome home.
punaise!
Good to see you man.
I left you a message on your Facebook page.
LibertyLee @ 56
Out of Iraq now!
excellent – punaise and angie back on the same day!
Twain @ 197
merci. vacation too short. back to work; have to run to the bank so the paychecks won’t bounce…
One thing I would like to reiterate as mentioned by GSD above:
Iran is the most democratic nation in the entire region with the exception of Israel.
So how ya gonna spread democracy by toppling the (second) most democratic nation? Get the help of all our friendly dictatorships around them?
I’m sorry, I keep using reason and logic. The average Joe or Jane just doesn’t seem to understand and they don’t really care to take the time to learn.
You just want to bang your head on your desk sometimes.
Bienvenue!
-GSD
Bustednuckles @ 198
thanks, I’ll check it out
john in sacramento said:
So, they’re taking the case for impeachment on the road? Or, and more significant if so, they’re being INVITED to bring their show by places like the Comm. Club (we may get that locally later, but I will check out your link).
I’ll take that as a good sign for a growing grass-roots movement toward impeachment, I was gritting my teeth this morning listening to Leon Panetta (yet again) telling NPR why impeachment was just ridiculous to think about, distracting from real issues, and just not gonna happen.
As he listed the issues that Congress needs to work on, such as Iraq, I was shouting – (quoting NIchols on Moyers) “Impeaching Bush/Cheny is the SOLUTION to the crisis!”
GSD @ 189
If Iran’s a paper tiger than Iraq must be gumby.. and we couldn’t beat gumby, so what makes us think we could prevail against a paper tiger? ugh.. these people are maddening.
Well.. shrub can always empty the prisons he’s so diligently filled up. That’ll give him an army.. of sorts.
Welcome back, Pun. The place just hasn’t been the same without you.
punaise @ 193
Punaise!
Bienvenue!
Fern @ 140
Musharraf’s time as a benevolent dictator is up in January. He either has to change the country’s constitution so he can continue in his current role, call free elections and bow out, or make an alliance with Bhutto for elections and power-sharing.
say a cabal of fascist imperialists took over the US government
and waged war against, say, Canada.
And started bombing Ottawa.
Is there a Moral Imperative that we (the united states) win THAT war?
Would we, patriots all, be obliged to assist in conquering Canuckistan, too?
Wouldn’t we all really be under the moral obligation to do everything we could to stop such madness?
OR
Would there really be something WRONG with a majority of americans Not wanting us to win that war?
liberty lee at 98 says-”If you talk to the Iranians in your restaurants who fled the Shah, you would know that most of the Iranians didn’t want the Islamo-Fascists controlling their country and want a return of the Royal Family and the pro-Western government that existed until Jimmy Carter sold them out.”
geeeeeeez liberty, where the hell have you been hanging out???????
you’ve been gettin’ brain-washed somewhere new…….
my sister dated an iranian……that’s not what he says……half of his family murdered…….the rest were here for a number of years…..some of them have moved back there now……oh, and i don’t think they hated carter, they were democrats……..
LibertyLee @ 134
You’ve got to be kidding. I think LL is here as a parody troll. Thanks for the laughs.
glad you all kept the country from running off the rails, or at least tried.
tejanarusa @ 183
no pic is required and i have not given them any more than “Yellowdog Jim” and they seem happy enough with me.
it is free.
Back in July, Siun had a heartrending post from an Iraqi doctor named Maryam, who had literally had her hands up to the elbows in the blood spilt in her country by America’s cruel, criminal war.
Maryam was of the opinions that Americans, as individuals, are also stained with this blood.
There was much sympathy and anguish in the comments, as well as a fair amount of protestations of moral hygeine, a disownment of contamination.
So, there is a new challenge coming up, for those who wish to beleive themselves oh so morally pure, even at this late stage: will you support and vote for candidates who advocate the next criminal, apalling war, against Iran?
All the leading (D) candidates have said “all options” including nuclear first strike, should be considered “on the table”.
A vote condemning Iran in the Senate, sponsored by Joe Lieberman, passed unanimously.
Pelosi capitulated when a foreign lobby on trial for espionage demanded that provisions be removed requiring that Congress be consulted prior to an attack.
Read Glenn Greenwald today for the (D)’s current position,
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
and then there is always the bitter medicine over at:
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
Therefore I submit that you have a choice after all in 08, and that choice is between your ability to make claim to a semblance of moral hygeine in the future, and your embrace of the Democratic Party that has done so much to bring us to this terrible point in history.
work for a good candidate in the primaries, work some word of mouth on your social networks, but when the ‘Least Worst’ is this bad there is no way that the votes and support of people of conscience should be taken for granted.
fdl reader @ 204
Thank you!
tejanarusa @ 208
cool.
I just left a comment and qeustion over think progress for the general, and I helped him out with a trol
go over and have some fun in support for a real patriot
punaise!
Great to see you.
1,575 dAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizens perris, LS and the Firepup Patriots:
DON’T FEED THE FUCKIN’ TROLLS!! Folks like “Liberty Lee” are goblins, they are fascist eunics that are sent out to occupy and draw fire from the patriot resistance…at their best, they serve their masters by keepin us from usin’ our energies to plan and act to destroy the power of the monied class. At their worst, they sap the strength of the patriots, misrepresent their own numbers and demoralize the followers of democracy.
In any case, they will always be here and you can’t make ‘em disappear with reason or rhetoric…the only cure for an attack of acute fascism is MORE DEMOCRACY and more democratic ACTION, even if it means takin to the streets and makin’ our fellow citizens take sides.
So remember to …
KEEP THE FAITH, PASS THE AMMUNITION AND DON’T FEED THE FUCKIN’ TROLLS!!
Punaise, we took good care of Sarkozy L’Americain while he was here in NH.
Though he did ditch his wife to meet with Chimpy in Maine for some weenies.
-GSD
egregious @ 221
egregious!
I’m repeating my own prediction, but there won’t be a war with Iran beyond what’s already happening (MEK terrorist attacks, attacks by separatists based in Baluchistan).
Too many components are missing in this iteration of regime change. In no special order:
There’s no Feith, Wolfowitz, Libby or Bolton.
The British are out, and vocally so.
Blair is out and Brown is forcefully opposed.
The British have been ejected from the south, thus leaving our supply lines more exposed than before.
There’s no third carrier.
American generals have declared they will mutiny.
Iran’s proxy Hezbollah has illustrated that it and Iran are not paper tigers.
Gates is in.
I think the fact that neoconservatives have a monopoly on the media tends to distort the real power they have to start this war. I don’t think the Iraq Study Group would have offered its report if the issue hadn’t already been settled. It’s not very satisfying, but other people, not elected, hold kinds of power in this country that we’re not privy to and they’re saying no to the neoconservatives. Neocon braying and bellowing is in inverse proportion to their actual power. I think there will be a coup if Cheney orders the attack — not martial law or a bombing of the Presidential Palace or anything dramatic — Cheney will just have heart or helicopter problems, or something.
dmac @ 181
On this matter of nuclear weapons (let’s distinguish them from enrichment projects Iran has underway), the IAEA has not said, to date, that Iran has a nuclear weapons program. Or, at least, they say that there is no evidence of such.
What they have said, however, is that Iran has succeeded in making very small samples of uranium enriched to about 4.2% U-235 (the Iranians claimed 5%), and that the analyzed samples were quite high in impurities, suggesting a very rudimentary process.
Most importantly, any inspector looking at the cascades set up by the Iranians would likely know, immediately, if their intentions were to produce bomb-grade uranium, because the way in which the centrifuges are connected in those cascades would be a prominent clue.
I’ve designed simple separation cascades. With different connections, they behave differently, in terms of concentrations of product and reject.
Fear-mongerers would have one believe otherwise.
tejanarusa @ 185
Nope, no pix. Yep, you can do without real names, or other identifying features. You can check mine to see what I did (I’ve got your tshirt).
John Johnson @ 142
There’s a similar quote in the “New” Testament– Luke 14:31-32,
Bob in HI
LibertyLee you wrote:
“The WMDs were a critical argument going in. Unlike the official position, I still believe they were there and hidden in Syria”.
You cannot possibly believe this. No one in there right mind would believe this. If this were the case, don’t you think the Syrians would have sold them off by now? Don’t you think being the Axis of evil country you have labeled them would indicate that they would have used those nukes by now? You are losing any sort of credibility with these outrageous claims.
GSD @ 222
hah! the story in France is that she was being capricious by bailing out on the lunch, claiming a migraine.
brendan @ 225
I sure hope you’re right. I can barely stand to imagine how galactically awful an attack on Iran would be.
yellowdog jim @ 214
one more thing:
Kobe Matisse Rose ( that’s our favorite poodle’s full name) tells us exactly how to do the rigmarole to register with word press for FDL so that facebook can put your little bitty blue facebook icon ‘f’ beside your name here.
tejanarusa @ 224
Heya teja!
egregious @ 221
egregious and punaise… Two of my favorite people!
How’z things?
brendan @ 222
I hope you’re right, but you just can’t underestimate the despicable lows this administration will sink to. I would not rule out some kind of back-door way to get into a war that they have their hearts set on.
Sure it would be a disaster for the US, and for the world, but the ensuing global chaos would prove very profitable to certain vested interests. And ultimately that’s the bottom line for these sociopaths.
Wee Hee, my monitor is smokin, Norske!
I have no particular interest in feeding trolls, but this is a classic example of binary and polarized thinking which we really need to get past:
No.
Nate @ 234
(((((fdl group hug)))))
Work productivity: high
Kids: all good
Mood: manic
Depression: under very good control
Yay summer :)
How are you Nate?
Punaise,
Actually it appears to be the case. She was spotted later in the day shopping in Wolfboro.
She appears to not want to suffer fools, chimps or crusty old Yankee blue-bloods.
Sarko also snapped at a photographer and jumped on his boat and laid into him in French too.
-GSD
To Bob @ 227
Sure, same idea…”look before you leap” would be the short version;)
yellowdogjim and peanutbutter-
thanks for the facebook help. I hate to be missing the FDL Facebook action, so I guess I’d better buckle down to the task.
peanutbutter @ 235
No.
We won the stinking war (if it could be called that). We deposed Saddam Hussein. The Criminal-in-Chief even declared “Mission Accomplished” so enough with the occupation — bring our troops home.
IrishJim @ 229
We ostensibly have military surveillance technology “capable of reading a clipboard from 80,000 feet.” We have nuke detection technology sensitive down to the sub-picocuries level. The notion that WMD could have been undiscoverably transported and “hidden” is the absolute height of bullshit.
punaise @ 230
There was also disturbing story about Bernard Kouchner meeting Maliki. It was interpreted in the French press as a break from French foreign policy and implicit support for the U.S. Kouchner, of course, is the Doctors Without Borders guy who supported the invasion; he is (was) a figure far surpassing our “liberal hawks” for “moral authority”.
This “debate” is a typical illustration of a primary principle of sophisticated propaganda. In crude and brutal societies, the Party Line is publicly proclaimed and must be obeyed — or else. What you actually believe is your own business and of far less concern. In societies where the state has lost the capacity to control by force, the Party Line is simply presupposed; then, vigorous debate is encouraged within the limits imposed by unstated doctrinal orthodoxy. The cruder of the two systems leads, naturally enough, to disbelief; the sophisticated variant gives an impression of openness and freedom, and so far more effectively serves to instill the Party Line. It becomes beyond question, beyond thought itself, like the air we breathe.
The debate over Iranian interference in Iraq proceeds without ridicule on the assumption that the United States owns the world. We did not, for example, engage in a similar debate in the 1980s about whether the U.S. was interfering in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan, and I doubt that Pravda, probably recognizing the absurdity of the situation, sank to outrage about that fact (which American officials and our media, in any case, made no effort to conceal). Perhaps the official Nazi press also featured solemn debates about whether the Allies were interfering in sovereign Vichy France, though if so, sane people would then have collapsed in ridicule.
In this case, however, even ridicule — notably absent — would not suffice, because the charges against Iran are part of a drumbeat of pronouncements meant to mobilize support for escalation in Iraq and for an attack on Iran, the “source of the problem.” The world is aghast at the possibility. Even in neighboring Sunni states, no friends of Iran, majorities, when asked, favor a nuclear-armed Iran over any military action against that country. From what limited information we have, it appears that significant parts of the U.S. military and intelligence communities are opposed to such an attack, along with almost the entire world, even more so than when the Bush administration and Tony Blair’s Britain invaded Iraq, defying enormous popular opposition worldwide.
From Chomsky.
Brendan,
Although all of the points you make are very strong and cogent, we must realize that good arguments do not factor in with the Bush crowd.
I fear the more his Poppy tries to sabotage an attack, the more inevitable it becomes.
-GSD
tejanarusa @ 241
Yea, and everyone can join our sparsely attended FDL Dog Owners Group!
tejanarusa @ 239
warning:
if you go there you will see my face.
this is the only warning you will get.
and
when i see your little blue ‘f’ thingie,
i am going to click on it and request to be your facebook friend.
(you’ll also be able to see Punaise, too.)
you have been warned.
Appropos of the title of this thread, I recently read a March 2003 Asia times article by Pepe Escobar, entitled “This war Brought to You by …”:
GSD @ 238
in the very small slice of French society I encountered (wife’s family and friends) there is a predominant apprehension of Sarko’s hard-line approach.
GSD @ 246
Of course good arguments don’t factor in. That’s why I’ve deduced that people with real power have stopped them. I have no other explanation for it; the conditions for attacking have worsened dramatically over the past year.
You know, if I were a small country, and had resources the USA might be interested in — I sure as hell would be working on getting nukes. It might be the only way of keeping what’s mine…
waving to egregious, Nate, and everybody. thanks for the warm welcome. back later.
1,575 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen peanutbutter:
“…this is a classic example of binary and polarized thinking which we really need to get past.”
Bless yer heart, dear, but those who are capable of reason and understandin’ ARE past this kinda thinkin’. The “Liberty Lees” out there will never see the light of reason, nor is it in their interest…all you accomplish by engagin’ ‘em is to take part in a “faggot hassle” that wasts your intellect and doesn’t contribute ideas for democratic ACTION to euthanize the fascist beast.
KEEP THE FAITH AND SPEND MORE TIME WITH YOUR FRIENDS THAN WITH YOUR ENEMIES!!
This “Syria has the WMD’s” story defies most rational analysis.
Syria supported Iran during the Iran/Iraq war.
Syria supported the world community and went to fight against Saddam in the 1991 Gulf War.
Syria witnessed the US about to invade Iraq over possession of WMD’s and decided to bail out an old adversary contrary to 20 years of not supporting said adversary?
Makes sense to me.
Take Norman Podhoretz’ nuts off of your chin please.
-GSD
raven @ 245
we also have an FDL MLB group as well as FDL CenTex FirePups and FDL Late Night FirePups groups.
new thread upstairs
White House Manual Details How to Deal With Protesters
Not that they’re worried or anything. But the White House evidently leaves little to chance when it comes to protests within eyesight of the president. As in, it doesn’t want any.
A White House manual that came to light recently gives presidential advance staffers extensive instructions in the art of “deterring potential protestors” from President Bush’s public appearances around the country.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..62_pf.html
well dang
there’s a mutts for mitts, and i even got the zed but now it’s not there?????
peanutbutter @ 256
Where? i reloaded. Nada.
peanutbutter @ 256
is not!
yellowdog jim @ 255
So what’s involved in setting up a facebook page? What if I’d just as soon not disclose a whole lot about my real life?
raven
Still here?
Jane is playin fetch with us!
BobbyG @ 236
All one has to do is “do the math.” Take the claims made by Powell at the Security Council on Feb. 5, 2003, take a reasonably specific gravity for organic compounds–something slightly less than water–and figure out the weight, then figure out how many truckloads that would be, then pick a rough center point in Iraq for averaging distance to the middle of nowhere in Syria.
Years ago, I did all this when the claim was made, and I came up with tractor-trailers on a 470-mile route from north of Baghdad to the middle of the Syrian desert, and with trucks spaced one mile apart, coming and going for three solid weeks.
Now, with two satellites (not including an Israeli satellite from which the Israelis would have been most happy to share results) over the area almost constantly in the months leading up to the invasion, why were there, a) no photos of the trucks?, and b) no photos of the end destination?
Why? Because Scott Ritter was right, and Bush, Powell and Cheney are very bad liars.
Jonathan @ 262
Yup, 106 here in Athens, I’m stayin in.
Jane posted Mutts for Mitt about the discrepancy between all the hollering over Vicks vs dead silence on Romney’s and on Judy(?) Guiliani’s actions…was so there!
GENERAL STRIKE!
Really, the only answer. Massive NON-Violent Resistance will get their attention. If you like the idea, spread it around to your other favorite blogs.
peanutbutter @ 266
I can confirm that.
Fern @ 261
Very little. You can register as Yellowdogjim Firedoglake if you like, for example. (Seems to only wnat two names, it rejected my Peanut Butter Firedoglake on first try, but was happy with Peanutbutter Firedoglake…)
raven @ 262
I was interested in your comments re Powell this morning.
He was a major in the Americal Division and tried to help cover up My Lai.
I’ve NEVER liked the guy.
Nope, they’re in your closet. Wait, that’s where the Wild Things are. Probably under your bed. Yep, I would definitely check under the bed. There shouldn’t be anything there now that the Commies are all gone.
punaise @ 190
“back”? What kind of a french word is that? Aren’t you supposed to say something like, “je suis retourneau”? Not that my french is any good.
But welcome back anyway!
Bob in HI
peanutbutter @ 256
the White House redacted it, claiming executive priv…
hey, punaise!
i got no new post upstairs yet.
Heard a radio excerpt from Bush’s speech today about the American public not losing the will to fight.
Translation: The American public has lost the will to fight and Bush is pissed because they are not doing what he says.
egregious @ 238
:)
Work productivity: Extreme
Health: Lousy but maintaining
Mood: Harried
In need of: A vacation to a tropical location with warm surf and cold rum-filled fruity concoction!
Hmph. Well when it DOES appear, i have dibs on the zed :-P
Jonathan @ 270
I don’t quibble at all with your perspective.
albert fall @ 275
No, no, no…the American public has decided it doesn’t want to be the monkey boy no more and Bush’s pissed.
peanutbutter @ 269
Hm. I just had two (real) names to start out, but it let me change it to add a “Redshift” middle nickname afterwards.
Oklahoma Kiddo @ 244 = Correcto-mundo!
The Vichy analogy is a good one. Who would have the gall to condemn interference with the orderly process of Vichy governance? Now we know…Bush/Cheney would have the gall.
and brendan @ 222
those are all fine countervailing points but…
Cheney wants an attack on Iran.
Our feistiest “ally” in the Middle East wants an attack on Iran.
Congress and all the (D) Leadership would go along with it.
With the possible exception of a mutiny in the high ranks of the military, if Cheney wants it, he can have it.
And, all it takes is a fairly small causus belli either real or faked, involving american casualties, and the Cheney Regime will have total freedom of action, and may even use nukes, due to the depleted strentgh of the Army.
There is no cause for complacency, and there should be no enabling the (D) enablers of the neo-cons horrible warmaking.
Just remember that The College Republicowards remain steadfastly ready (for others) to “fight them over there so WE (uh, others, actually) don’t have to fight them over here.”
A followup on the supposed McNerney weakening reported this morning, via Greg Sargent:
Anne seems to rather invested in the “Democrats are saying the surge is working” storyline, which reinforces the idea that her interpretation of McNerney’s views is somewhat suspect.
sporkovat @281
Well argued. My optimism is a false front. I’m trying a reverse jinx to make an attack on Iran not happen.
yellowdog jim @ 248
Historian Robert Dallek nails Chimpy on his phony Iraqnam arguments.
Bush’s blame game.
-GSD
sporkovat:
It’s “casus belli”.
Is anyone going to participate in the General Strike on 9/11? Because I am if it looks like it will be widely observed.
1,575 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen sunny and the Firepup Patriots:
“GENERAL STRIKE”
Yes indeed, now yer gettin’ it, citizen sunny, now yer gettin it!! Let’s ask our distinguished hosts if we can use FDL to organize and coordinate FDLers to participate in the 9/11 General Strike. Let’s ask Citizens Hardin Smith and Hamsher if they would use their considerable contacts with folks like Move On, Democracy Now and other blogs like MYDD to begin a wave that could grow to a tsunami by September 11th. A general strike and demonstrations in every capital city and every major population center on the day General Petraeus drops the bullshit on the floor of Congress.
How about it Firepups…how about some real democratic ACTION for a change!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T BE AFRAID OF THE BASTARDS…MAKE ‘EM COME OUT IN THE DAYLIGHT!!
Kobe is upstairs
yup, french keyboards are *weird*.
i’m very happy to see so many educated people around here ^^
so, my assessment is the following :
a) dubya needs some incentive for the fear-driven rep voters, meaning war with Iran, and will exert a limited strike on some Revolutionary Guards training camp (attacking the nukular facilities ain’t useful without utilizing tactical nukes, which would be a BIG no-no internationally-wise).
b) Iran strikes back full-force and liberates Iraq. no pun intended semantically.
there’ll be an Oscar-winning movie about the last 3 days of Baghdad Airport in 2010. all critics of fossil fuels won’t know whether to rejoice or slap the next feasible american.
c) the New Iran-Iraq Federation will include Shiites and Sunnis and quell sectarian violence HARD. expect Al Quaeda activist executed live on television.
now my question is : will the Kurds get their own state ? i don’t know what’s more useful to Turkey – their own oil or membership in the EU …
peanutbutter @ 267
see ydj at 130 above: kobe has the good info.
Count me among those hoping that Brendan @225 is right, but not believing it myself.
290
NorskeFlamethrower, thank you for noticing! and you too, beebop! I hope you all will spread this around to your other favorite watering holes on the internet. We CAN start a wave.
Thing that got me about the speech was the reaaly rubbish history. Does GWB know Cambodia and Vietnam are different countries? Pol Pot happened because the US left Vietnam? If there is any connection it is that the Cambodian civil war, and thus Pol Pot, happened because the US was in Vietnam, not because the US left. What total rot!
Also heard today Gennl Odierno saying he was happy with new unarmed (so far) “biometrically tested” to be sound, Sunni support people. Now have I got this wrong or were the Baathists Darth wouldn’t allow to have any jobs atall Sunnis? Any bets they are some of the same people. The phrase is, I think “Madness, madness, madness”.
LibertyLee @ 178
Liberty Lee,
In a way, you have already answered your own question. There is no answer to your question. GWB wants to hold ‘em until he can place the blame on the Dems for losing the war and we know its time to fold,em.
When a war is lost, and is costly in time, resources, and especially in human life to keep fighting on, then its time to call in the bet.
58,000 dead whose names are etched on that Vietnam wall. I would not like to see Iraq, and Afghanistan go on forever and reach totals anywhere near that.
George’s big risk, or big folly didn’t turn out as he wished. It never will. I for one do not want to see our soldiers, and the Iraqi people keep paying for his mistake in an unwinnable war.
I have said from the get-go that Iraq will be what Iraq will be. So much for Bush’s grandiose plan to establish democracy in the middle east. He failed.
brendan:
my oops. that’s what I get for trying the fancy latin.
reverse jinx, rabbits feets, we should all try everything.
yellowdog jim @ 63
Now I thought the axis ov Evil was the US, the UK and Saudi Arabia. Or maby that’s the US, UK and Haliburton.
AZ Matt @ 23
He drank the Kool-Aid.
Again. And again.
We are at war, that much I’ll give him. But it is not with Iran, but with both Russia and China. We are war for global energy resources; the so-called “axis of evil” is a bright, shiny object designed to keep us from seeing the real war as it continues apace.
Even the “we” that is at war is in question. The real factions are the petrochemical-military-industrial complex of the U.S., headed by Cheney and the neo-cons, the Russian government, the oligarchs, the Chinese government. Iran figures into this equation not because of their quest for nuclear power but for the second largest supply of natural gas, which lies under Iranian soil. (Because we have reached Peak Oil, natural gas now has equal footing with crude as an energy resource.) Iran needs electricity, but it cannot expend one of its few resources that can be converted into capital to generate that electricity; they have been bargaining for years with the Russians to trade nuclear energy technology in exchange for natural gas. With Iran’s natural gas under its control, Russia would be able to establish an OPEC-like cartel for natural gas reserves. It has been slowly locking down all contracts with other natural gas suppliers around the former Ottoman Empire and the Baltic to this end.
China, in the mean time, has been wreaking asymmetrical warfare on us in the form of economic control, keeping us in check by holding our debt and the bulk of our manufacturing within their reach. (They shook our leash last week in the financial industry, if you weren’t paying attention.) They’ve also been heavily courting any potential natural resource supplier on the African continent. The recent problems in Somalia may have been in relation to these outreach efforts.
And the American people are hostage to this invisible new Cold War for energy, unable to take concrete action to free themselves from the grip of fossil fuels in order to escape these escalating tensions. We are allowing our own American oligarchs to take our resources and use them to fight for that which is not in our country’s best interest. We are allowing them to rope us into a new paradigm where Sunni Saudi Arabia and Israel believe they are manipulating us into protecting them from Sh’ia Iran — and perhaps this is a preemptive measure if we attack Iran and stir up the rest of the Sh’ia world.
It’s not as simplistic as Cheney would have us all believe. There is an axis of evil, but it is not the one that’s been painted by Bush’s past speeches.
enriching uranium for dummies :
industrial grade for power plants : large amounts of somewhat enriched uranium (<10% of those special isotopes). cascade arrangement : mostly parallel.
weapons grade : small amounts of massively enriched uranium (>90% of those special isotopes). cascade arrangement : mostly serial.
and these thingies aren’t that easily rearranged. we’re not talking “high tech shit that could wind up sub-par” here, we’re talking “high-tech shit that might contaminate some billions worth of equipment if somebody screws up”.
nuclear weapons are mostly a very expensive status symbol, anyway. why spend years on developing A, when you can cook up some B or C in mere weeks ? it’s just politics.
LibertyLee @ 178
“Win” is a meaningless concept unless there is an answer to the question, “Win what?” And, I’ve never gotten an answer to that question.
Simply put, in the most unemotional and game-theoretic terms, what’s in it for the American taxpayer if we “win.” By way of context, when we walked away from Viet Nam, it cost us nothing, and we were able to stop paying in terms of both blood and treasure. So, what’ll it cost U.S. taxpayers to walk away from Iraq?
On a more serious note, we do need to know how to answer the slander from jerks like LL. We haven’t won or lost the war in Iraq, there was never anything to win or lose. What we have done is broken our military and our economy in an attempt to gain control over the Iraqi oil for the benefit of a few mainly US companies with close ties to the Bush administration.
We will withdraw from Iraq.
When we withdraw there will be a great deal of violence.
The longer we are there the worse the violence will be, the more we will be hated and the weaker we will be.
Why does Bush want the US to be weak and hated?
Liberty Lee? Why do you want the US to be weak and hated?
LS @ 28
Just as you don’t have any brains, libertylee. If you are so adamant about Iran and since you don’t seem capable of taking on board any semblance of fact, why the holy hell don’t you join the Army or better still the marines and get your ass over there where you just might be able to do some good, but then, you’d wet yourself and need your diapers changed, probably costing some decent grunt their life to do so. Your priveledge of being considered sane is over, STFU.
Judge a person by the actions. Conservative want a weak military.
Judge a person by their actions. Conservatives don’t believe in fiscal responsibility.
Judge a person by their actions. Conservatives don’t believe the law applies to them.
realworld @ 303
hmmm, here’s how I would put it…
“Hey LibertyLeeLee, why not climb up a rope of piss to the moon and call that Victory? Since we’re not supposed to worry about logistical impossibilities or fraudulent definitions of V.I.C.T.O.R.Y this is just as good as anything you or any other ditto-heads can come up with. Don’t let your Country down, Boy! And plant a flag while you are up there “
maybe not Serious enough. I’ll have to run it by David Broder.
Beebop @ 289
I find it pretty interesting that the only couple of people who are advocating a cessation of work on this sacred day are people we have never seen here before. I intend to work my little heart out for the restoration of constitutional democracy then as every day. Take your wee strike elsewhere please.
Fern @ 218
You are very welcome! :-)
LibertyLee @ 100
“in YOUR restaurants????”
Most Iranians I know are not those folks parodied by John Belushi in the 1980’s…they are professionals who know that an attck on Iran by the US or Israel would be the worst thing ever for the folks who want to eliminate the heavy-handed clerics. It was precisely such rhetoric by the US and the fact that Ayatollah Khamenei was given no tangible benefits that he was unable to win over the people…the economic depression led to the election of Ahmadinejad. And the exile community knows this!
Furthermore, attacking Iran will trigger the slaughter of our troops in Iraq by the currently quiescent Badr Brigades of SCIRI. Why you should wish massive street riots and attacks by the major Shiite militia linked to the Iraqi regime is beyond fathoming. But the Iraqi’s of SCIRI will not stand to the side and allow the US to attack the nation that sheltered and trained them during the decades of Saddam’s rule.
LibertyLee @ 5
And the myth of the “Axis of Evil” has been shredded as well…or are you saying that you have any sort of evidence that Saddam and Ayatollah Khameinei were good buddies? There is no similarity to the coalition of Japan, Germany and Italy. In fact, Bushes analogy with “why Iraq is like Japan” falls apart for just that very reason…it would be like after Pearl Harbor Bush decided to attack the Russians rather than Japan!
The people who put out such notions (along with “Islamo-Fascism”) are “Asses of Evil”!
LibertyLee @ 134
You have just shown that you want Iraq to participate in attacks on Syria and Iran…while you say that you want a state that isn’t involved in threatening its neibors. Which is it?
And if you think that the Iraqi Shiites will allow their territory to serve as a base to attack Iran…you are daft. I’d suggest that you recall what Saddam had to do to forcibly induct young Iraqis to fight in that madness of a war during the 1980’s! They quite simply won’t follow any American Neo-Cons wet dream like this…in fact you are likely to see Iraq become a source of active slaughter of the US Forces by a now largely quiescent SCIRI militia (the Badr Brigades).
Similarly, the Sunnis will not participate in any sort of invasion of Syria.
Lastly your assertion that Saddam sent his WMD’s to his rival…Syria…rather than using them against US forces is just silly. This is especially true after the Bush Administration has admitted that there was no documentation that Saddam had WMD’s or facilities to make them for any length of time after 1992. Saddam merely kept up the “ruse” because he was fearful of IRANIAN attack and a resurgent Shiite rebellion. The documents show his resistance to UN inspections was a ploy.
And the rightwing talking points about the movement of WMD’s to Syria were simply fabrications by Neo-Cons who had no access to anyone that actually would have had appropriate intelligence to support this point. It was a “fall back” defense as it became increasingly clear that no WMD’s would ever be found and that each and every “lab” or “storage area” was actually something else…utterly unrelated to WMD’s.
LibertyLee @ 56
No they haven’t. They have said just the opposite…that they only intend to develop enough feul to supply nuclear reactors for peaceful usages.
Are you even aware what the Non-Proliferation Treaty states?
Non-Proliferation Treaty: Article IV.
Any signatory has “an inalienable right to develop, research, produce, and use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes,” and to acquire technology to this effect from fellow-signatories.
That’s why the Russians and Europeans are able to supply nuclear technology with Iran…and why we would be much better off if we worked out arrangements to provide the Iranians with cold-water reactors that don’t produce fissible nuclear fuel…actions which the Bush Administration and the Republican Congress for years repeatedly blocked (ditto for North Korea).
These guys have sh*t for brains!
peanutbutter @ 237
No.
Well his logic would explain why the 1992 Cheney statement that “Invading Iraq would create a major quagmire” was buried deep out of the conciousness of the rightwing.
Cheney was a “loser”! The soldiers who fought the first Gulf War “lost”! Bush Sr. “lost” against Saddam Hussein!
What this suggests is that any War that doesn’t result in utter annihilation of the enemy is a “loss”…no peace treaties or reaching diplomatic conclusions is allowed for these extremists!
The “cakewalk in Iraq” war pushers have been shooting from the “exact same script” in regard to pushing our nation into a confrontation with Iran ever since the invasion of Iraq.
Woolsey, Reul Marc Gerecht, John Bolton, Micheal “faster please” Ledeen, Bill Kristol, Cheney, Richard Perle, etc etc. have been allowed to endlessly repeat unsubstantiated claims about Iran for the last four years all over the MSM, most of their claims about Iran have gone unchallenged.
Some of these liars are the same folks who were part and parcel to taking Valerie Plame/Wilson out. (you know take out the CIA agent who is attempting to gather information about “alleged” WMD’s in Iraq and Iran. These war pushers/ and some defense contractors are traitors to U.S. National Security.
Some polls report that 70% of Americans believe that Iran posesses WMD’s.
Neocon Deja Vu..doo.