Yesterday, the WaPo published an article about Democrats softening on Iraq under the title “Senator Calls for Maliki’s Ouster.” As part of that article they quoted statements made by Rep. Jerry McNerney after his trip to Iraq at the end of July:
That followed comments by Rep. Jerry McNerney (D-Calif.) suggesting that his trip to Iraq made him more flexible in his search for a bipartisan accord on the future U.S. role in the conflict. “If anything, I’m more willing to work to find a way forward,” he told reporters late last month.
Since July 30, McNerney had been facing increasing blowback from his supporters over his statements. Yesterday, he responded with an email and post at his campaign blog, supposedly clarifying his position on Iraq. He even put up his clarification as a diary on Daily Kos:
In September, Congress will be participating in perhaps the most critical discussion of this conflict since it began in 2003. My campaign web site has been receiving increasing amounts of email from concerned citizens curious about my stance on the war. So, as we approach this pivotal debate, I want to clearly and unequivocally express to you where I stand on the question of executing a responsible redeployment from Iraq:
I am firmly in favor of withdrawing troops on a timeline that includes both a definite start date and a definite end date (”date certain”) and uses clearly-defined benchmarks. I am not in favor of an “open-ended” timeline for withdrawal, as some members of Congress have proposed recently.
As many foreign policy experts agree, setting a date certain for withdrawal is fundamental to forcing George W. Bush to bring our troops home from Iraq and ensuring the Iraqis step up and defend their own country. That’s why — even as I consider all proposals as a matter of due diligence — I am standing strong on setting a definite redeployment end date (as an example, I recently voted for the “Responsible Redeployment from Iraq Act” to safely draw down our troops over the course of nine months).
Many of the folks at DKos reserved judgment, saying they wanted to see a correction of his comments as reported in the WaPo. McNerney sent his formal clarification to the reporter at the WaPo, and then he got on the phone to explain exactly where he stands on the issue. Uh-oh. Unfortunately, the clarification he gave in today’s WaPo article, entitled “Democrats Refocus Message on Iraq After Military Gains”, only muddied the waters further: (emphasis added)
Rep. Jerry McNerney (D-Calif.), who made waves when he returned from Iraq by saying he was willing to be more flexible on troop withdrawal timelines, issued a statement to constituents “setting the record straight.”
“I am firmly in favor of withdrawing troops on a timeline that includes both a definite start date and a definite end date,” he wrote on his Web site.
But in an interview yesterday, McNerney made clear his views have shifted since returning from Iraq. He said Democrats should be willing to negotiate with the generals in Iraq over just how much more time they might need. And, he said, Democrats should move beyond their confrontational approach, away from tough-minded, partisan withdrawal resolutions, to be more conciliatory with Republicans who might also be looking for a way out of the war.
“We should sit down with Republicans, see what would be acceptable to them to end the war and present it to the president, start negotiating from the beginning,” he said, adding, “I don’t know what the [Democratic] leadership is thinking. Sometimes they’ve done things that are beyond me.”
Although his statements appear completely contradictory, I suspect that in his mind they function as two parts of a whole. He honestly believes that he can somehow find a “third way” (I know, I know) to break the stalemate between the two parties to lead to a “responsible” timeline for withdrawal. McNerney has made a basic rookie mistake by thinking unstrategically.
I believe that his motives are pure (if a little egotistical), but his understanding of the political dynamics at play is fundamentally flawed. While he would genuinely like to broker some sort of dramatic breakthrough — an outside-the-box solution, if you will — in the logjam over Iraq that has been created by Democratic/Republican party politics, his approach is overly naïve. He needs to understand that what he has done is merely an example of Democratic triangulation at its worst. By straying from the position staked out by the Democratic leadership (and calling them out on it, no less!), he has unwittingly helped move the Overton window rightward at a critical juncture in the Iraq debate. However noble his intentions may have been, McNerney’s actions have served to prolong our stay in Iraq by giving cover to the Bush apologists. And he needs to be called out on that by both his supporters and by the House leadership.
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zed?
woof
raven @ 2
They’re cute, raven.
Nice to see he felt the heat though.
Responds to stimuli;
Check.
Saturday morning, I’ll be asking my congresscritter about Iraq, Impeachment and FISA, for starters, and progress from there…!!!
Watching that enormous Ari Fleishman flexibility on Hardball, again. Is this what it means to eat your own?
Oh, I’m sorry, Mike Barnicle is as sickened by Ari’s Cirqe du Soleil antics as the veterans are. Good one, Ari, you don’t even know the name of the soldier that you abused to make this video.
Ari really did inhale vigorously on Hardball. What a clown, he truly is vapid. “We all suffer when one of our troops loses their lives”. Arrrgh…
nonplussed @ 7
If the American people rose up, this sort of crap would die…just go away.
What’s needed is a leader…to lead millions of Americans to reject this shit.
Ari has lost none of his mendaciousness since he has left the Whitehouse. His skills at dissembling, misdirecting, and just flat out lying appear to be as sharp as ever.
They way I read McNerny is that he is a geopolitical and a (USA – hardball) political neophyte. He doesn’t understand the situation and he has no idea of the power of language and the consequent need to be very specific. (SIGH)
Sorry, I thought it was “Senator calls for Maliki’s Oysters”.
McNerney and Hillary. For me the jury’s in.
Third way Republican style:
Republicans get everything.
Democrats get whatever is left.
McNerney may be a first termer but it’s not like he didn’t live in this country anytime the last 6 years before that.
HinTN @ 10
I agree. McNerney is inexperienced. But a lot of Democrats have been triangulating for so long that they don’t even realize they’re doing it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
OKK — You’ve said here that you will vote for Hillary if she’s the Dem nominee.
Norskeflamethrower said here today that corporatist Hillary would be worse to elect than a repub.
I’m inclined, for complex reasons, to believe Norske is right.
What say you?
Is there something in the water supply at the US House of Criminals that makes these guys go look up Harold Ford at the DLC and court their active support?
What next, a trip to that island off the Georgia Coast for a walk in the sand with Bill and Hill?
Jeebus, it’s disgusting.
I respectfully disagree. IMHO, McNerney is a man trying to serve two masters, one of whom is his voting constituency. Who is the other? Any conjectures?
I disagree a little with the post.
“While he would genuinely like to broker some sort of dramatic breakthrough — an outside-the-box solution, if you will — in the logjam over Iraq that has been created by Democratic/Republican party politics,”
–Is the poster asserting that is true, or saying that McNerney thinks it’s true? The logjam has not been created by partisan politics on the part of Democrats. It has been created by insane intransigence on the part of Cheney and dub. Bush could completely change the situation, both here in the US, and for a not ghastly outcome in Iraq any day simply by negotiating with somebody, anybody, in good faith. He won’t. I don’t see how partisan politics has been much of an obstruction, unless you want to say Cheney and dub have become their own doomed third party.
“…his approach is overly naïve. He needs to understand that what he has done is merely an example of Democratic triangulation at its worst.”
–I don’t think it is DLC style chickenshit triangulation. I think he is misguidedly trying to show that he has an open mind and is willing to be flexible and negotiate… extend his hand in a gesture of good faith. These people do not understand good faith as anything other than an declaring exloitable chumptitude. That IS very naive, but I don’t think it is triangulation as practiced by the DLC types.
We will find out what he is thinking as he gets polite queries regarding his line of thought. And also, the corporate media cherry picking and distortion has reach epic, mythic, even Biblical, proportions lately regarding the surge/escalation/dumb idea, so there is that to consider.
I hope McNerney is still planning to appear on the blogs to take questions.
The truth is- without significant gooper support- the dems cannot and will not get us out of this war. They don’t have the votes to overide a veto or to stop a fillibuster- and they will not stop funding- so unless someone does a deal with the goopers- we’re in this thing for 16 more months at least
I think we may be in for three more years or so at a minimum.
Weak or non existent leadership in the Democratic party is giving hope to Republics. There is no strong leader. There is no strong voice.
There is only a chaotic group who will give rise to yet more years of Republic plundering. Bush will yet again skate away, free from responsibility for anything he’s done or done in his name.
It is depressing. The Democrats are contemptible.
Could McNerney be supporting this position? Is he letting himself be used, but why? He must be terribly politically unastute.
http://www.freedomswatch.org/default.aspx
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
I don’t regret supporting McNearny the first time.
I know I will not be able to spare a nickel for him anytime soon.
After that, knowing we ended up feeding the new dem, blue dog, DLC machine, a new puppy… really steams my clams.
next
The President from hell took a vacation from his vacation today to make a speech- about Vietnam. He says that thousands of innocents died because we left…
implications:
1) If Bush had been in charge, we would not have left Vietnam- we’d still be there- surging!
2) Bush is not at all concerned about the MILLIONS of innocents who were killed by american bombing and STAYIN in the Nam.
3) Bush’s point is that by stayin the course and surgin an all- we’re savin lifes–ignoring the fact that we’re killing vietnameses—oops- Iraqis- like flies- half a million or so to date.
4) If there were any doubts about this man’s fitness for service- he just eliminated them..
He’s fuckin Crazy!!
So who was this argument directed at? People in the middle who aren’t sure about the war? Hell no- it’s aimed that the dinosaurs who think we made a mistake leaving the Nam- probably 5% of the population and every one of em already support the idiot..Go figure..
Here’s the money shot..
If you think we made a mistake leaving Viet Nam- vote gooper!!!
someone has shown mcnerney[lobbyists?]the light…how else to splain his “new way forward” thinking?… but he must return to his community for votes come ‘08 then what?! i dont know of him but he seems to have forgotten who helped put him in office…..
He’s not Pombo and that is a huge step in the right direction. Retaking the country and re-making the Democratic party isn’t going to happen over-night; it’s going to take decades. McNerney is a step in the right direction; if he keeps screwing up; dump him in 2010.
McNerney might be afraid of the sections of his district that remain either wingnut and still believe, or very corporatist who only believe in money and power and do not like types like him (for example, headquarters of Chevron is still in his district I think).
I think that the wingnut and reactionary corporatist sections of his district will never vote for him no matter what he does. That is something he will have to figure out how to handle.
rwcole @ 19
That may have to be done, but it doesn’t have to be done quietly. Shine some light on the Republics and their games. Don’t just acquiesce.
How about a new rule for the all volunteer army: You want to go? Go ahead. But you’ll have to pay your own way and buy your own equipment.
Rep. Jerry McNerney (D-Calif.), who made waves when he returned from Iraq by saying he was willing to be more flexible on troop withdrawal timelines, issued a statement to constituents “setting the record straight.”
Hmmmmmmmm – Jerry McNerney is a flexible guy as well.
I would love to see full disclosure on who’s supporting the 15 million dollars of pro war ads that Ari’s lyin about. Wonder why no one’s asked him?
rwcole @ 23
I think you misunderestitmate the American people, at least the ones in Georgia. Lost causes are their bread and butter.
Marcus Aurelius says August 22nd, 2007 at 4:28 pm:
Good idea. Everyone can be an officer like in the old days. If we throw in some epaulets and a cool swords, maybe some of the wingnut guys will volunteer.
Preznit Yellow Stripe and his little speech about how we “cut and ran” from Vietnam should make everyone who served, lost a relative in that dirty Asian war or gives a shit want to go to the Vietnam Memorial and form a phalanx to keep him away from any more ceremonial visits. He dishonors them all, both by his cowardice and desertion and now his statement that they obviously did not do enough (in his mind, anyhow) to “win”.
Sick fuck.
wigwam @ 17
I think you make a valid point about him trying to serve two masters. Who are they? Frankly, I think it’s his voting constituency and a CW phantom of his voting constituency. In other words, I believe that his staff in DC does NOT understand his purple Central Valley district in the least and view his constituents as being much more conservative than they really are. The war is a case in point. People in his district are firmly in favor of withdrawal from Iraq. But thanks to his staff, McNerney is left, as I said earlier, “pandering to Godot.”
rwcole @ 19
I think you are right..the other thing to remember is not to confuse the symptoms with the disease. The Iraq war is a horrible symptom but the disease is the Republican Party. It’s like directing all of your attention at the worst headache you have ever had and neglecting the brain tumor.
steve-ar
You make good sense as usual.
Jo Fish @ 33
Funny, the fact that Powell is the keynote at the 25th Anniversary in November caused me to cancel my plans to go.
Jonathan @ 15
Norske is one of the good guys. Let’s just say the remark HRC made regarding Iraq very recently, has inflamed me to the point of outrage. I am not immune to changing my mind. I will be discussing this matter around the pool tonight with someone very wise about these things. ;0)
A lot of mericans are gonna get hoodwinked one more time by the prez from hell about the progress bein made in Iraq…they can’t stand the idea of losing.
rwcole @ 39
Sorry I DON”T buy it. He is triangualting aka Clinton disease. He has lost me, and to think I gave him some of my hard earned money…NO MORE!!!!!!
babaloo@34
i think his staff in dc are all beltway insiders- i have no way of being sure but i bet its so – and they have a DLC view and we pretty much know what side the DLC comes down on…
Franco @ 41
He who? or is that Hee Haw? Oh, the topic, sorry, duh.
Badwater @ 27
I agree. If the positions were reversed the Republicans would be strong arming the Democrats for all that they were worth.
So what have the Democrats been doing?
*crickets*
raven @ 43
Hee Haw is right…LMAO
babaloo @ 34
I like your analysis. One of the things people don’t realize is that grassroots conservatives are fed up with Bush and his war. I suspect that the average NRA member is now to the left of the average Democratic congressman on matters of foreign policy.
juslin @ 42
His Chief of Staff, Angela Kouters, was a staffer for Sen. Fritz Hollings, did military messaging for the Kerry 2004 campaign and then worked for the DCCC.
His Communications Director, Andy Stone, was the online director for the Angelides for Governor campaign.
‘Nuf said?
It’s funny how people jump into discussions with no more money for—-the Dems have sold out, a republican would be better than Hillary, blah..blah…just say’n.
raven at 37
6:00 a.m. November 5, 1995.
Washington, D.C.
Went running, walking past the Wall.
Saw a bunch of guys with calvary hats where the Wall turns.
Hal Moore and survivors of Ia Drang.
Not the most gripping experience I’ve had at the Wall. But pretty good.
McNearny makes no effort to explain the details of his trip and why he has made this decision..
Are these revolving congressional junkets going through the green zone? Isn’t everyone wearing protective clothing at all times while visiting? Isn’t the green zone taking occasional mortar or other small arms attacks?
If not, why the sudden stop?
California’s 11th district has a three point republican registration advantage…if this guy acts like Kucinich- he’ll be gone in 08.
babaloo
BINGO!!!! lol
Steve-AR @ 47
I find HRC infuriating, yet I would FAR rather have her appointing judges than any Republican I can think of.
Steve-AR @ 47
Hillary is better than any Republican. Any Democrat is better than Hillary.
Shari Lewis (rip) and Lambchop: Song that doesnt end
This is the war that doesn’t end,
it goes on and on my friend,
some people started fighting it
not knowing what is was
and they’ll continue fighting it forever
just because
(repeat indefinitely)
Oh yeah, Brian Baird – the rep across the river from here – can fuck right off.
OT..Just to lighten things up a bit xtian family values.
Illinois: Convicted sex offender in Southern Baptist pulpit
by Pam Spaulding · 8/22/2007 07:28:00 PM ET
http://www.americablog.com/2007/08/il…..er-in.html
just once i’d love to see a dem make a strong stand and MEAN IT!!no more retracting statements and saying they were taken out of “context”…..please stop
Me thinks it was in part his recent “information” trip to Isr*** under the auspices of AIPEC with Stanley Hoyer along with 17 other Dems that did the trick. Note in this link how people in their districts are being pressed to bring the point home.
http://israelbehindthenews.com…..-17-07.htm
The last hope I cling to is that Gore will step in.
rwcole @ 51
Actually, it’s a five-point Republican advantage. It also has 16% decline-to-state voter registration. McNerney ran on a strong platform to bring our troops home from Iraq and won with 53% of the vote. Why now, with the war going SO well, would he suddenly retreat from his prevoius positions? How does that help his reelection chances?
As I noted in the story linked to above, a Field Poll released last week showed that in California, 82% of Democrats, 40% of Republicans, and 66% of the DTS voters support withdrawing the troops.
How does he lose by supporting a position held by 82% of his base, 40% of his opponent’s base and 66% of the pivotal DTS population?
Hugh @ 54
Precisely. And Jerry will be safe with all the blue dog/new dem fundraising.. It’s time to stay focused on and financially support anti war progressives..
rwcole @ 19
Mt mama used to say, “Where there’s a will,there’s a way.” I think the problem is that Dems have no will.
juslin @ 57
Hillary never will apologize for her vote for the 2002 AUMF. She says that was OK but that Bush bungled everything. She doesn’t explain why she supported this bungling for 4 years, longer than some conservatives and neocons.
63?
balaboo
I don’t know the district nor do I know the strategy the guy is using..
He got the shit kicked out of him the first time he ran for the seat- but won this time- the goopers are still there and are still goopers- he may be trying to provide himself with some cover for his upcoming vote that he knows will be unpopular- I don’t know.
My point was really a more general one- that it’s not logical to expect dems in gooper districts to behave the same as dems in dem districts- they have to get re-elected.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
Kiddo, I feel your pain, but for me, this “waiting for Gore” is agonizing. Therefore, I will contine to say-
Edwards: The Only True Threat to the System.
McNerney is a Dem and not a Rep, meaning he *is* entitled to his own opinion or did i miss something ? if he is a politician led by his conscience for a change, well, good for him.
so, now for the wider view … smart people and political strategists are able to follow more that one plan at a time. let’s say Dems are weak, but not necessarily dumb. he established himself as a not-to-relevant and thus not-to-high-profile contact person for dissenting repubs. he even distanced himself from the party leadership for that.
in the meantime, the party leadership is still allowed to go full-frontal.
you see, there was the plan to show the public that “we give King George everything he wants and he still vetoes”. flaw (in the eyes of the republican public): of course he may veto, if
the plan came from the Dems. so what we need as an eye-opener, is not a bilateral-but-mostly-Dem, but a nearly-totally-Republican proposal for him to veto, which McNerney here might help set in motion.
for those who think he’s spoiling the bigger picture : you really think Joe Public might notice ?
watching hardball now – its amazing how lil neocon still believes bushco’s rants – i guess the neocon paychecks are very heavy…
Marcus Aurelius @ 28
Perhaps Blackwater could just get a flat dollars-per-head fee?
Domestically HRC is acceptable, though I detest the DLC. Foreign policy wise… she stinks.
Steve-AR @ 47
I don’t think it is FUNNY at all. But since thee is free speech here on this blog, I believe anyone can say what they think, DON’T YOU?
Jonathan @ 49
I’ve got a nice picture of myself, General Moore and his wife at the DC Airport coming back from the 20th in 2002. We were waiting for a plane back to Atlanta and had a great chat. Mrs Moore said, “I like you boys from Athens but I’m still for Auburn”! The most moving experience I had at the Wall was at about 3am after the “Delta to the DMZ” fund raiser for the nurses memorial. After the party a bunch of us got in a cab to go to the Wall. It was raining and we started at the statue. One of the nurses seemed mezmerized, she stepped over the little chain fence and wiped the rain off the faces of the troopers. She didn’t want to go down to the Wall because she said all they did wa triage em and move them out, she didn’t know any of them. I walked her down and showed her my friend Andy’s name and told her about his life and death in Operation Meade River.
babaloo @ 60
Now *those* are the big-money questions.
There’s no deus ex machina candidate who will ride in on a white horse and make everything right…it’s gonna be traditional dirty old politicians committing traditional old dirty politics- and in the end- things might get a little better- if the right dirty politician wins.
Hillary is not worried. She thinks she has us over a barrel. Maybe she does.
I will at this point be voting for Edwards in the primary.
NO KO!
I have been trying to reply to juslin #57 but my comments keep disappearing.
Hillary never apologized for her vote for the 2002 AUMF. She said that was OK but that Bush had b*ngled everything. She has yet to explain why she supported this bungling for 4 years, longer than some conservatives and neocons.
Mod note: Refresh your page please.
raven @ 71
What an experience.
My most memorable experience was being all by myself down at the wall on a late fall early morning.
The Washington Monument was reflected in the wall.
There were some things left at the wall.
I could hear voices. I’ll never get over it.
rwcole @ 64
Actually, I do know the district. Barbara Boxer carried the district in 2004. McNerney won last year widely campaigning by saying “I am a Barbara Boxer Democrat.” That’s why he’s facing so much blowback now. He’s reneging on the very campaign promises that got him elected in the first place.
Hugh @ 54
Amen.
Jonathan @ 76
Namaste
damn – still no KO! HRC is the choice of big money – not the average voter imo primary voter that is
I went door-to-door for months last summer and fall. The voters here in San Joaquin county I talked with that planned to vote for McNerney were planning to do so because:
1. Pombo was corrupt
2. Republican congress was corrupt
Many voters wanted a change. But the specifics of who McNerney was and what he stood for was less a factor to the voters out here.
I’m just saying the strong anti-war stand did not really sway the voters out here (at least the hundreds I spoke with personally). It was more a vote to remove Pombo.
Shorter Bush: “The DFH’s stabbed us in the back in Vietnam, and I’m not going to let them do it to us again in Iraq!”
With no trace of irony.
bab
What was the question on the Field Poll?
In nationwide polls, a majority want the US out of Iraq–BUT NOT IMMEDIATELY- and a LARGE majority oppose cutting off funding.
McNerney may have fallen into the situation that Ellen Tauscher grasped, and as added to by Duncan this morning.
At least that’s what I hope.
rwcole @ 85
You can read the Field Poll here.
“We should sit down with Republicans, see what would be acceptable to them to end the war and present it to the president, start negotiating from the beginning.”
Um, is there ANY plan to get out of Iraq that would be acceptable to Republicans?
Bab
The Field Poll says that 39% favor a complete withdrawal—an additional 26% favor a “partial” withdrawal (whatever that is)
75% favor BEGINNING to withdraw SOME troops by next SPRING.
Voters consistently say that they favor withdrawal sometime in the near future and then when that time comes- they push the horizon out further…
It’s not as clear poltically as I would like it to be.
Bab
Thanks for the link.
rwcole @ 89
From the Field Poll:
You can bend the numbers to say a lot of things. But only 18% favor keeping our troops at the level they are today, and only 10% favor escalation. And the truth is that Jerry McNerney’s triangulation and use of Republican talking points are actively setting back any hopes that Democrats have to bring the troops home sooner rather than later. By giving the appearance that he buys into the notion of “signs of progress” in Iraq, he is shifting the narrative from one where Republicans are on the ropes to one where Democrats are caving (once again). To that extent, he is clearly not in sync with either his state of his district.
babaloo
I don’t like him agreeing with the “progress” bullshit either- and I can’t think that it was politically necessary to do it. It MAY be necessary for him, though, to be a little cautious on the issue.
RonD @ 66
Me too, I think hoping for Gore is like chasing the elusive butterfly, I really like Edwards and I feel he has a chance. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
Maybe he’s heard the following blockbuster breaking story:
The leader of Iraq’s banned Baath party, Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, has decided to join efforts by the Iraqi authorities to fight al-Qaeda, one of the party’s former top officials, Abu Wisam al-Jashaami, told pan-Arab daily Al Hayat.
“Al-Douri has decided to sever ties with al-Qaeda and sign up to the programme of the national resistance, which includes routing Islamist terrorists and opening up dialogue with the Baghdad government and foreign forces,” al-Jashaami said.
Al-Douri has decided to deal directly with US forces in Iraq, according to al-Jashaami. He figures in the 55-card deck of “most wanted” officials from the former Iraqi regime issued by the US government.
In return, for cooperating in the fight against al-Qaeda, al-Douri has asked for guarantees over his men’s safety and for an end to Iraqi army attacks on his militias.
Recent weeks have seen a first step in this direction, when Baathist fighters cooperated with Iraqi government forces in hunting down al-Qaeda operatives in the volatile Diyala province and in several districts of the capital, Baghdad.
Boston1775 @ 29
Flip. Flop. Flip. Flop.
nabalzbbfr @ 94
I thought the Preznit didn’t negotiate with the terrristss?
-GSD
“McNerney’s actions have served to prolong our stay in Iraq by giving cover to the Bush apologists.”
Yeah, kinda like your actions and words give cover to the terrorist enemies. But of course, here at FDL, Republicans and GWB are the greater enemies, and America be damned. Partisanship trumps all, even the safety of American troops or American interests.
What the fuck is wrong with this guy? Does he not even feel an ounce of responsibility enough to actually, I don’t know, employ a persuasive argument?
Then I read dw’s post above and remembered who the real idiots are.
dw @ 97
America be damned? After Bush breaks our military, kills our intelligence services, busts our disaster preparedness and the same terrorists you are shitting your pants about perform the attack you so desperately fear/wish for, what part of America will be left?
We’re interested in America’s future as an ongoing enterprise, not as a holding area in which to wait for the Rapture. Take it somewhere else buddy, that shit is old.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
I’m with you OKK. But it’s just about too late:
Gore/Obama 08
People should be circulating petitions to get Al on the ballot for the super Tues. (Feb 5)primaries. Petitions in those states are probably due in Oct.
rwcole @ 19
Me, too. It’s going to end in military disaster. But what can you do? Nobody has the balls to pull out. It’s like the First World War in the trenches.
Madness, Madness Madness.
rwcole @ 89
This is what the Dems are seeing in their polls, and it is what queers them. The American public know that things are not going well and that we should get out. They have not absorbed the magnitude of the defeat, which is strategic and total. When that comes home, there will be hell to pay. The question is, who is going to be that hell? The Dems and the DFH’s, or the thugs? The thugs are positioning so that it will be us.
dw @ 97
A lot of us here think that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is the biggest strategic mistake any country has ever made since Hitler invaded Russia. Think about it. We are gutting our military, we have pretty much united the world against us, the Russians are now patrolling nuclear armed airplanes for the first time in 15 years — and it’s not for China, believe me. And you think that ’supporting the troops’ means supporting this disaster?
Babaloo, you and teh Jermeister . .
What’s it take?
GET OUT!!! NOW!! Leave the mess to others!!!
That’s what progressives are calling for!
Anything LESS, is pure bullshit spin for status quo . . . .
Pure BS folks, don’t be sucked in.
GET OUT!! NOW!!!
What a buncha fuckery this Dem party is snarking around and about . . .
Harumph.
YOU and Jer don’t speak for ME.
Babaloo, the reason that McNerney and practically every other democrat with influence and power in Washington is caving on Iraq, is that they have made the decision that joining bush’s bloody-handed koolaid-company is preferable to leaving and grabbing for the slim chance that the people of what used to be Iraq, will then make the Himalayan-sized compromises necessary to avoid an even bloodier civil war than the one which bush has already created.
It’s why more and more democrats (Led by Clinton and Lieberman) are parroting the obscene bushCo line that what’s happening in Iraq now; that what’s keeping us from the apple-pie fantasy ending that the neo-turds like Cheyney, Wolfowitz, and Perle, were jacking off to, 5 years ago, is simply that the “Iraqi government” has failed to come out from under it’s desks in the green zone, and man-up to it’s purple-fingered promise of the election which bush engineered.
Incidentally, of course, THIS excuses the “well-intentioned” (Gosharootie, folks; the clusterfuck just up and crawled into our hands!) creators of the shitmire from having to take responsibility for it. And the democrats (and Lieberman) seem perfectly happy to bend over and spread their cheeks, and hurry that process along.
For me, the bright hopes from winning the mid-terms, are about gone.
I’ve defended Pelosi and Reid, saying that they should NOT force troop withdrawals from Iraq without the bastards who STARTED this misery, joining them in taking the responsiblity for what is almost certain to follow. But at this point, their surrender is becoming so complete; their abandoment of any priciples; of any concern for the truth; is becoming so wretched, that watching THEM speak on the MSM is almost as nauseating as watching bush spout off HIS corrupt bullshit.
I’m at this point: If the democrats are willing to help bush string this shit out, and volunteer to inherit it, it will mean that the people who did this to us, will blithely walk out the door, and then WE will become the sole owners and proprietors of bush’s gangfuck in the desert, with the practically inevitable ending to be put on OUR political bartab.
I can’t speak for anyone else on here, but by God, I will not be able to stand the sight of Karl Rove dancing naked on top of O’Reilly’s desk, while Bill, now able to start blaming US for it all, beams like Jon-Benet’s parents watching her celebrate after winning a beauty contest.
No. Fuck no.
I would rather the repubs win everything; House, Senate, and White House, than gag on more koolaid and snakeoil…and democrat-brewed koolaid and snakeoil, at that.
If the democrats we “hired” to protect us, and to help us run these twisted excuses for humans out of town, can’t or won’t take this opportunity to, AT EVERY FUCKING TURN, denounce them for what they’ve done to Iraq; to us; and to the world, then let the republicans have their corporate 4th Reich.
I will vote for Nader, or ANY independent, if it will deprive the likes of Clinton and McNerney from a “victory”, so that they can sustain the same lying bullshit that got us into this misery.
RWCole; if we’re in this for another three years, It will be the death-knell of the democratic party. And if they’re too stupid to realize it?
Then it fucking well should be.