Glenn Greenwald cites a new Gallup poll which indicates that the low approval ratings currently being logged by the Democratic-controlled Congress are due to the fact that Democrats are disappointed in their performance:
[T]he only rational conclusion is that Congress is so unpopular, particularly among Democrats, because of their ongoing capitulations to the Bush administration, their failure to place any limits on his Iraq policy, and their general inability/refusal to serve as a meaningful check on the administration. Democrats and independents overwhelmingly dislike the President. Thus, the weaker Congress is in defying the President, the more unpopular Congress becomes.
Contrary to the general impression created by the media when discussing this polling data, Congress’ extremely low standing does not undermine or dilute the intense unpopularity of Bush and his party among Americans. To the contrary, it bolsters it and arises from it.
Americans still trust the Democratic Congress far more than the President on “the major issues facing the country.” Congress is so deeply unpopular not because they are investigating or obstructing too much, but because they are investigating and obstructing far too little. Every time “Blue Dog” Democrats and Democratic consultants and mindless, conventional-wisdom-spouting TNR types successfully argue that, especially on national security and war issues, Democrats need to capitulate to Bush lest they be politically harmed, they make Democrats look weaker, more like losers, and more impotent (the opposite of the “strength” they think they are projecting) and dig this political hole further and further.
Glenn cynically notes that as we slog on to Magical September, “it is far more likely that more Democrats will be converted from an anti-war to a pro-war posture by “The-Surge-is-Working!”/Petraeus campaign than Republicans will be converted to meaningful anti-war action.” All too true. You don’t need a crystal ball to predict that Democrats will continue to let Karl Rove provide their stragetic wisdom for them (you know, the same oracle who told them that opposing the war in ‘06 would be “bad for the Democrats”) and limp toward ‘08 on a platform of capitulation.
As Matt Stoller says, “I’m sure tired of conservative Democratic politicians thinking that their goal in life is to get better parking spots than they did last cycle.” I think a few of us are. But the fact is that the Blue Dogs and the New Democrat Coalition (the “Bush Dogs“) are calling the shots, and in the process they’re dragging the party’s approval ratings into George Bush’s personal shitter.
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We have got to clear out Blue Dogs and other DINO’s, stat…
and that’s what we at the lake have been saying from day one
that congress had better NOT aquesce to the president
we want the damage he’s done REVERSED, we want him OUT of office
WE WANT OUR CONSTITUTION BACK
Please clean up my notice below, thingies got switched and 404 is the result. Thanks
The Democrats need an insurgent to dominate the news cycles like Gingrich did for the Republics in the 80’s. The current leadership is not capable but no one is willing to do anything about that.
From NBC’s Domenico Montanaro
The Edwards campaign issued a statement attacking Clinton for comments on the surge at the VFW convention yesterday. “Senator Hillary Clinton’s view that the president’s Iraq policy is ‘working’ is another instance of a Washington politician trying to have it both ways,” said Rep. David Bonior, Edwards’ campaign manager. “You cannot be for the President’s strategy in Iraq but against the war. The American people deserve straight talk and real answers on Iraq, not double-speak, triangulation, or political positioning.”
Are our Congress learnin yet?
Nothing like a well-reasoned argument from Glen.
He hits the opposition head-on with his well argued positions. Sorta like the fem-bloggers at this site*g
Bustednuckles @ 8
Is our Congress properly brainwashed?
Will someone please step forward and convince me as to the reasons I should support HRC above other Democrats.
I seem to remember (and please correct me if I’m wrong,) that Democrats’ campaign contributions went up to an all-time high when they finally started showing some spine a couple of years back.
What part of “we want you to do that” did they not understand? How much clearer can we make it?
It’s time to clean house. At the same time, they have us exactly where they want us. We have to vote for D’s. There are so many incumbents sitting pretty because the normal progressive doesn’t have the financing to mount a campaign, so people like Maria Cantwell (damn right I’ll name names,) keep getting reelected, for instance, and keep appeasing in the best tradition of Holy Joe and others too numerous to name here.
Grrrrr.
-S
Bustednuckles @ 8
Not yet…pass me that clue by four…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
Ummm, no.
I certainly agree with this. If Dems had some guts, and gave a few great speaches on C-span, I’m sure the ratings would rise.
There is a lack of the following in the Dems in Congress:
A clear statement of mission, vision and objectives
A clear plan and agenda
A clear measure of performance and constituent accountability via votes, benchmarks and constituent (as opposed to lobbyist/corporate) approval ratings
A transparent mechanism of campaign fundraising, citizen constituent responsiveness, and of doing the will of the people per their leadership and committee assignments
Fix these things, and the Dems will hit a grand slam.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
It will drive the `pugs batshit insane to have Bill in the White House again? :)
Dems are missing the boat in a way that’s hidden by party affiliation.
There are a lot of educated repubs — lawyers, accountants, financial guys and gals, and engineers, in my experience — who have come to loathe Bush and who are desperate to find Dems they can back.
They see through DLC types just like everyone here.
They want competent and honest government just like everyone here.
Needs to be a way to extend a greeting to these folks.
er…that’s “speeches”
montag @ 17
Best reason I’ve seen yet ;-)
peanutbutter @ 20
The best revenge.
Badwater @ 6
So if you don’t like the silence of the current leaders, let’s look around a bit at the newcomers.
The frontpage of Jim Webb’s senate website is filled with bills he’s pushing on Iraq-related issues — a commission to investigate profiteering (w/ Claire McCaskill, Jon Tester, and other freshmen), responsible deployment policies, better use of the National Guard, and a post 9/11 GI Bill.
None of these are new (most date from July), and none are directly related to withdrawl of troops. But while the Senate and House are in recess, Webb could — if he chose — step up the pressure on BushCo. With his background, he’d have a lot a microphones and cameras all to himself.
Any VA firepups want to make some phone calls?
Thanks for this post, Jane! It says what I’ve been trying to say for weeks, if not months!
Bob in HI
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
Hillary! Hillary! I see this as a sign you are weakening. You don’t seem to know which way to turn. There is something rather John McCain about this.
peanutbutter @ 20
That would be sweet revenge! But that doesn’t quite do it for me.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
Ah, well, it was the only one I could come up with. :)
While listening to “Talk of the Nation” yesterday (sort of), my ears perked up when someone from my birth place, Erie PA, phoned in. Ahh, a history prof from a local college. He was quite upset that the Dem Pres candidates didn’t go to the party machine’s party, but they all went to the Blogger’s convention. Then he asked why the politicians were so concerned about “stupid bloggers”. Good old Neil then asked his guess, so why do they care so much about the “stupid” bloggers?
The guest explained that, despite media BS, the left wing crazies really are very normal Americans looking for a voice. Then Neil referred listeners to his own “stupid” blog for more information…rich.
Jonathan @ 18
Kathleen Sibelius, D Gov of Kansas, has done just that to build up the Kansas Democratic party. With the theo-con takeover of much of the GOP apparatus in KS, and the mindlessness of some of the national GOP folks, Gov K reached out to moderate republicans with exactly this kind of message: honest, competent government.
It strikes me that this is also the kind of thing that caused Jim Webb to join the Dems.
well I suppose the good news is, it cannot possbly get any more shameful, awful, disgraceful, capitulatory (is that a word? well it is in my church of chuck berry), self-serving cowardicelike, sickening, numbingly full of total shit, actually making dick and chimpy seem to have integrity by comparison.
damn damn damn I’m beyond sick of these worthless f*cks.
draft Hamsher and Smith 08!!
I agree with earlier thread – Blue Dogs need to dress in pink. Preferably hot pink.
Just saw “No End in Sight” last night and it’s magnificent and timely. This could be a tipping point. If it’s not playing in your area call your theater and ask them to run it. It’s basically condensed every one of the Iraq-is-a-disaster books (Fiasco, Assassins Gate, Imperial Life, etc.) into a movie with all the players who were there as it fell apart. Gripping. Enough to mobilize people who don’t read these great blogs and stay on top of things. So I urge you to urge your friends and family, especially any Repubs, to see it.
i so don’t get it… what are they thinking? what am i missing?
and not just on iraq… on iran too.
2008 should be a blow out… but i’m getting worried.
Sharkbabe @ 29
In this matter, I prefer brevity. It’s all cheesedickery.
The corporations and other powerful monied interests are having to work harder and harder to hide how close this country appears to be getting to some sort of a progressive upsurge or upheaval. We’re not just pissed about the war and political corruption and health care and the struggle to make ends meet. We’re tired of being told what we think when we know we don’t think at all like we’re being portrayed. I’m not just talking about liberals like myself. Every issue we fight for that resonates with honest people who think of themselves as conservative might help swell the roster of progressive new House members in 2008. I’m not nearly as optimistic about the Senate or WH.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
because she won the dem nomination? Oh, wait, that hasn’t happened yet … Can’t really think of any other reason.
peanutbutter @ 13
A “clue by four”??? Hmm. This has interesting possibilities.
Clue #1: Remember who elected you!
Clue #2: Remember your oath of office! (particularly that bit about the Constitution)
Clue #3: Focus your attention on those who have been violating the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law on multiple occasions
Clue #4: Sic’em!!!
Will that do for a clue by four?
Bob in HI
selise @ 32
I kinda feel like that too. It feels like we are somehow the prey that senses the predator. You can either run away or stand and fight. We have to stand and fight smart.
lee5 @ 35
It’s in the bag.
Speaking of parking spots. Yo Harry… does Liberman get his spot authorization from the Demo side?
The Repubs win if Hillary is nominated.
Here’s why.
If she wins, they spend eevery day for 4 years doing to her what FDL does to Bush.
A lot of it will stick for a lot of Americans.
During the 4 years, Rove will quietly plan his comeback.
If she loses, then we’ve got Rudy.
Which, long-term, would not be nearly as great for the Repubs, but it would be OK.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 39
Let him park in Alexandria. Takin’ the bus’d be good for him.
montag 33 – hahahahahaha
*while crying, of course*
You would think that most people would look at the 2006 election returns and say, “Hey, the people seem to want a Congress that won’t just roll over and give George W Bush everything he wants.” I can’t figure out why people can’t see this.
“It’s in the bag.” And for many of us, therein lies the problem.
I do not view Hillary Clinton as the candidate for peace. Am I wrong on this?
always pissed me off at National Airport, little gold-plated, close-in Parking For Members of Congress lot
we need to strip their health insurance too
worthless bastards…can’t believe I pay for their salaries and perks…like it’s not bad enough paying for war criminal cheney’s traveling ICU, day in and out
Why’s HRC in the bag?
Jonathan @ 40
You actually believe this BS or is this just a sick joke?
Sharkbabe @ 46
That parking lot is the only reason that National is still open.
alas, ok kiddo 45, ‘fraid you’re spot on. from what I can see anyway.
bmaz a4 48
Didn’t mean it as a joke. Called it as I see it.
Where, in your view, am I off track?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
I would love to see a woman in the White House but I am not one of those “my country right or wrong” (my sister right or wrong) people. I’ve had a lifetime of old regulars and this is not what I want to pass on to my children. Hillary does not represent the kind of America I want for them.
Until Congress enacts a publicly funded election campaign scheme, using paper ballots, of no more than 55 day duration (campaigning ceasing 5 days before the ballot), do not expect my participation in the present scam to elect representitives. My vote will not be there if the present “business as usual” is still operative. Show me that my vote will be effective, it is not presently. The present scheme has no bonifides left, it is threadbare, and worn beyond usefullness. I will not participate in the present sham.
Frank Probst @ 49
Sort of like keeping a whorehouse open to keep the piano player employed….
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
No, I don’t see her as the candidate for peace. She seems to think she’d be too “soft” if she talked about trying to achieve peace, instead of trying to prove she can waggle a dick as big as the rest of them.
Wow, I haven’t seen Sharkbabe on a thread in ages.
Waves hello.
The critter world operates in a remarkably democratic way, much more than humans do. Awhile back I read (a Nature magazine article, iirc) about studies of the red deer decision making. It wasn’t the stag that made the decision to move to a different area, it was the whole group. When 2/3rd of the deer stopped eating or drinking & looked in a direction, the whole herd moved. If there was a threat, it was the same process but much quicker. Other scientists reported the same with other critters.
We are already at that 2/3rd position to make a move in another direction. It’s our politicians, corps etc that are holding the line. I just don’t think they can pull that off much longer. At least the optimist in me hopes so.
here’s what i’m hoping….
last year, it seemed like the dems didn’t want to campaign on bush’s iraq war debacle… but lamont’s primary win against lieberman seemed to change that… and the dems went on to win decisively.
maybe this time they just need to listen to jane again and all will be well.
ironranger @ 57
Too bad all those deer didn’t see Cheney comin’ in 2000.
Frank Probst 49 – me and dad raced sailboats by Nat’l Airport for years – he always said it should be closed and turned into a sailing marina lol – and he a republican
then again, sometimes the planes taking off provided the only wind on those hot, moribund sunday afternoons….
on npr earlier-should listen to it……all things considered, i think.
(sp?) brian baird d-wa, just back from iraq……progress made, need 6-8 more months……said he would hope his constituents would understand because he is talking from someone who was there, who has read the reports, etc…..that they would want decisions based on this info rather than from someone who just read about it over here……..
another one bites the dust.
like someone said yesterday-what the heck is in the water over there?
Baird was on Tucker too. Are they all bailing?
hey busted – mwah
just haven’t commented for eons, but still very much around
Interesting article:
e believe that intelligence is a fixed entity, endowed at birth and unchanging, whereas others believe that intelligence is malleable. People with these different “self theories” tend to have very different experiences in life.
I’d venture to say Rethugs come from one, and Dems from another…*ahem*…
montag @ 59
That’s because they’re vegetarian.
Good to see you.
Damn, maybe they told Baird & the rest they wouldn’t let them out of Iraq until they said uncle.
arrrghhh! That quote should read:
People tend to hold one of two beliefs about intelligence: Some believe that intelligence is a fixed entity, endowed at birth and unchanging, whereas others believe that intelligence is malleable. People with these different “self theories” tend to have very different experiences in life.
I think Safari for Windows has some issues with cut and paste …*grumble*…
The Democratic conundrum (as ruminated over by every “mainstream” Democratic consultant worth his/her privileged parking space):
1. If “we” stop Junya and Deadeye’s unconscionable folly in Iraq, the Repugs will certainly blame the Democrats for “losing” Iraq.
2. If “we” don’t stop Junya and Deadeye’s unconscionable folly in Iraq, “we” are going to “own” it when “we” take the White House in 08, and the Repugs will certainly blame the Democrats for “losing” Iraq.
Like a deer frozen in the headlights, the Democrats jest can’t seem to find a safe place to curl up in a ball and whine about the unfairness of it all.
Message to Democrats: Wake the feck up!
Life is hard, and indecision, cowardice, timidity in the face of hard choices does not make life easier.
Nobody gets outa here alive, so you might as well do the feckin’ right thing!
Stop Junya and Deadeye now! It is the only way out of this mess.
Painful? Yes! But we never promised you a rose garden. Perhaps a view of the rose garden…if you are good lil’ politicos.
I always wonder how much of the conservative Dem habit of caving is due to the sustained and unending panic attack attitude, vapors and galloping fantods of the DLC bunch and their lackeys? Besides being chickenshit on common sense merits, it is bad politics because it is chickenshit and telegraphs sneakiness and lack of candor and lack of ability to lead, lack of ability to think for oneself and stand on one’s own feet,lack of courage. Tragic if the oh-so careful centrists and conservative Dems trap themselves into horribly wrong policy because of reflexive obeisance to lousy and cowardly, and maybe even chickenshit political thinking.
dmac @ 61
Maybe Mr. Baird would like to suit up and take a rotation if he thinks it’s such a great idea.
-S
lifelong resident of Washington State, and SICK of the DINO’s
GG is soo right – just saw former anti-war rep baird on fucker carlson saying the surge is ….working and it only needs more time….. yeah thats the ticket – and thats 1 of the reason we are upset with dem congress at least i am – catching up on today’s posts – missed the lake earlier today – hey pups :o)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
GO EDWARDS!
Could Hillary be a Bush Dog?
montag @ 17
I definitely agree with Montag. I would just love to see Chelsea back in the house.
hmm see other pups posted similar thing as i – just now catching up on comments – dont mean to be redundant…
Jim Clausen @ 9
Yup. There’s only one thing wrong with Glenn … he’s just not quite foul-mouthed enough for me. *g*
ccmask @ 74
Can her boyfriend move in too?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
juslin @ 72
Perhaps Mr. Baird’s constituents should remind him that, in one more F.U., about 400 more American soldiers will be dead. And that he will own every damned one of them.
Jonathan @ 51
Supreme Court. Next President will appoint at least two Justices. Rudy has signaled what kind he will pick and it is not good. Quite frankly, this is probably the most important aspect of the coming Administration in the long run. It is simply that critical. Every issue that you, or anyone here, cares about will be affected by the next changes on the Court. Iraq will dry up one way of the other in one to four years; logistics dictate that. The makeup of the Court will affect us and our children for decades to come. Of course, I said that in 2000 as well, and few paid attention. I am hoping there is a little more cognizance now.
Tangentially OT: There’s an article in Calitics about that electoral redistribution initiative. I’m generally encouraged by their findings, but it’s definitely something to keep an eye on…
Hillary wins.
Dems control congress. But not 41 votes in the Senate.
140,000 troops in Iraq.
Economy beholden to China.
Baby boomers about to begin retiring.
Question: Not what Hillary Does.
What does Karl Rove do?
As Wayne Gretzky said, you need to skate to where the puck is going to be.
We can’t forget that Halliburton is getting bigger and bigger each election cycle, along with the number of people who benefit directly from this war. That is alot of votes when you add all oil employees and the military. Add that to the 30% who ALWAYS vote Republican.
Rep. Brian Baird’s website
http://www.house.gov/baird/
Contact information:
Phone: (202) 225-3536
-S
bmaz @ 80
Look, I am with you. No disagreement. My point was to look at things as I think repubs look at them. Thanks for your response.
Jonathan @ 82
Puck’s headed to SCOTUS, IMO.
HRC may be the choice of big money etc but she aint my choice – i prefer someone with a bit more fortitude…. maybe dodd?? hmmmmmmmmm
I just found out about Mr. Bairds nefarious ways. He is right here close.
I am still considering how to tweak his nose over it and I will tweak his nose.
Maybe a nice LTE.
ironranger at 67 says-”Damn, maybe they told Baird & the rest they wouldn’t let them out of Iraq until they said uncle.”
they’re definitely feeding them some kinda spin that is hitting a nerve…….one after the other…….
now, if only their staffs would pick it all apart and show the ‘truthiness’ in it………
A lot of this is learned helplessness (familiar to anyone who has ever watched Alan Colmes): Democrats are constantly told that up is down, water is dry, and fighting back is “partisanship” and therefore evil.
This despite the fact that from 1998 on, those Democrats that gave the backs of their hands to the Beltway Conventional Wisdom of the day have done far better than those who didn’t.
Remember 1998? The Republicans and their media buddies thought for sure that they were going to clean up big-time in the mid-terms. Instead, the American public punished them for their stained-dress impeachment obsession with the net loss of five House seats. (If the public had only known that the Republicans were going to push forward with a lame-duck Congressional impeachment anyway, they would have thrown control to the Dems.) Those Democrats who didn’t cower in their storm shelters, but who stuck by Clinton as the GOP/Media Complex was shoving his used boxer shorts in everyones’ faces over and over and over again, were precisely the ones who did the best that year.
But of course, the GOP/Media pimps the wrong lesson from 1998. Instead of “Don’t impeach somebody for frivolous reasons”, it became “Don’t impeach”.
ironranger @ 57
I have studied human group dynamics: this is so interesting! Thanks!
And I sure do hope it applies to the current political scene.
There was exactly one name leaked to the media, that I’ve seen, identifying a Member of Congress who advocated (behind closed doors of course) “caving” to further abuses of Executive Branch power on the FISA bill. It was not a “Bush Dog” – two Bush Dogs were instead named by leaks (to E.J. Dionne) as advocating not caving to Cheney’s secret police powers. Somehow, some way, those two Bush Dogs lost that argument with the House leadership…
That single named person who advised that the Democrats ought not to protect the Constitutional prerogatives of the Legislative Branch or our rights to privacy, acting either on his own behalf, or as a stand-in for Nancy Pelosi (as he is clearly doing with regard to impeachment), was John Conyers. If that was a malicious and inaccurate leak to Jonathan Alter of Newsweek, Rep. Conyers should so inform us. But until he does, I’m not making any assumptions to the contrary about who bears the most responsibility for the ultimate outcomes of votes in Congress like FISA, based simply on the often-misleading final vote counts featuring Bush Dogs or other apparent factions within the Democratic Party faction as a whole.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36…..ek/page/0/
casual observer put it very succinctly and very well over at TNHurrah the other day:
I agree. We are lied to now by all sides of our government. Once trust is gone, it takes a lot more effort and a lot more proof to make a sale. Once burned, twice shy, and the Democrats are already way beyond burning us “once.”
It’s the media and electronic voting.
“Aides to Mrs. Clinton said her remarks that military tactics in Iraq are “working” referred specifically to reports of increased cooperation from Sunnis leading to greater success against insurgents in Al Anbar Province. Looking ahead to September, when Congress will receive an Iraq progress report, Mrs. Clinton said: “We will have some very hard decisions to make. I’m not sure there are any good options.”
“Mr. McCain, a forceful advocate of the Iraq strategy, offered an opposing view when he took the stage shortly after Mrs. Clinton. He said it was in the best interest of the United States to stay in Iraq.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08…..1vets.html
No link, but elsewhere there was a statement that Fred Thompson received a standing ovation from the VFW members.
LS @ 93
Reminds me. Hear any of the major candidates say anything about campaign reform yet, advocate, say, complete public financing for federal offices?
wow. great find by booman… (and on topic too):
ironranger @ 67
Does sound like quite the indoctrination campaign they put those guys through when they go to Iraq. they all come back singing the same song.
dodd on cnn….WTF????????
bmaz and PB
The big prize IS the Supreme Court.
That’s why electing a Dem president is so important.
But in my opinion, we should not limit our thinking to the 2008 election (although, I admit, it’s critical because of Justice Steven’s age).
We should think both short-term and long-term.
We can bet the repubs are doing that.
Fern @ 97
Virtually the same lyrics, too….
juslin @ 98
Answer Cafferty’s question (7 p.m.):
respond
Just popping in from work, so I haven’t read any of the comments, but I just want to say this.
I’d be at least a little sympathetic to the Democrats’ claim that “it’s really, really hard for us to do anything bold when we have such slim majorities,” if it weren’t for the fact that if the Republicans had those very same slim majorities they’d be ruthlessly blasting anything and everything in their way to friggin’ smithereens.
Hell, they’re virtually doing that now with no majority at all. And given what the Republicans call “governing” these days, it’s no exaggeration to say that the Democrats would actually have all three of Truth, Justice, and the American Way on their sides, if they’d just be willing to use ‘em.
It’s called guts, people. Figure it out.
pow wow @ 92
I’m with you pow wow 100 percent!
There cannot be any doubt whatsoever that the Democratic Leadership in both the House and Senate were fully aware of their FISA choices.
Caving to fear, and their Democratic Consultants telling ‘em: “Look at the upside. If Junya gets his way with FISA, it will only fire up our base.”
Democrats – always owning lemons and trying to find folks who will drink their lemonade.
Jonathan@85 – I meant no disrespect, but I think the issue of the supreme Court is that important. It is going to take a long time to clean up the mess Bush leaves behind, and it is absolutely critical to have an enlightened court that is neither obstructing the effort nor causing new hell. Hillary is definitely not my choice for any number of reasons. She does not project the progressive values I want; but I think she will be steady and competent, and light years better than Rudy or any Republican. Rove and the Rovettes are going to mercilessly attack any Democrat in the WH; at least Clinton is used to it and knows how to fight back.
Pow Wow – right on and correct.
jonanathan@99
agree with that – tho right now i’m thinking short-range cuz damage done needs undoing – then its mapping long-range plans to maintain this democracy but i could be way off base in this….
pow wow @ 92 –
most excellent point…. and if it was just alter’s reporting i might not give it much weight… but jeralyn’s post on conyer’s role on H.R. 3409 in 1996 makes me take it quite seriously.
on the other hand, if this is true, we ought to be able to find a way to lobby him effectively… especially important since he’s in charge of “fixing” fisa.
I guess the question to ask Glenn is whether declining to consider impeachment proceedings improves or worsens the perception of Congressional Democrats by Democratic voters who, apparently, are disgusted because their Congresscritters don’t stand up to Bush/Cheney, et al.
On CNN, Cafferty just asked whether Chris Dodd is correct in saying that attempting impeachment would be a mistake. His conversations with Blitzer suggested it was contemptible to say that worrying about Dems getting elected in 2008 is more important than removing from office someone who had committed and continues to commit high crimes and misdemeanors.
I sense the country is way ahead of Congress.
Evening everybody!
bmaz @ 104
yeah. and while i despise ex-president clinton and don’t like senator clinton… your argument is the one that could get me to vote for her.
Hey, bamz.
I believe in the open market place of ideas.
It’s a marketplace that might at times be rough and tumble.
But it’s a marketplace where the best ideas win out.
I thank Jane Hamsher every day I wake for creating this place.
RonD @ 108
Evening.
You know what I think the media is doing for Bush now? They are dwelling on campaigns a whole lot so that Americans think the election is a whole lot sooner than it really is. This way the Impeach option isn’t considered because the election is just right around the corner. But the truth is, we still have 517 days.
Look what he is capable of in only one day! (pet goat)
pow wow @ 92
Indeed on all counts.
I’m burnt to a crisp about the whole mess, but this part may be the worst.
“The private excuse was that the liberal base wouldn’t be satisfied no matter what they did …”
That’s cutting.
Badwater @ 6
Obama and Edwards are doing a pretty good job of it, but unfortunate that presidential candidates are the only ones doing it.
Banner on Wolfie, CNN now wrt Obama:
PLAY THE CUBA CARD
selise @ 109
Well, the court currently goes 5-4 on right-wing/business/wacko religion/Bush security issues, so the issue isn’t gaining the court, but simply keeping a slim chance that Kennedy votes, once in a while, in ways of which lefties approve.
That doesn’t seem like quite enough reason, very possibly, to move with Rove’s head fake. What if Edwards is the candidate Rove really fears?
selise @ 106
Selise – Alter is dead on the money here. My understanding is that the deal on how to proceed was cut in conjunction with the GOP leadership and the WH. It was staged Kabuki every step of the way. Conyers makes me want to puke between this duplicity and his incredibly lame committee hearings. Not to mention the 1996 stuff, which I actually remember. He is well past his expiration date.
Scarecrow@107 = And Cafferty is no bleeding heart liberal by any stretch. I used to watch him on CNN’s In The Money years ago and he actually seemed like a moderate Republican. The people are WAY ahead.
Mad Dogs @ 103
Son, we don’t actually read the bills….
Will someone get that banquet room in the Hill’s basement together and stick Conyers in it….please….
selise @ 96
Oh, praise be to the goddesses! That this is true, that it is detected/able, and that we can spread the word! We are seeing a difference already.
fdl reader @ 113
Well. About the only thing that would have made me happy is to see them stay in session throughout August.
There are so many loopholes that need closing. Recess appointments. Campaign financing. Actual enforcement of the regulatory process that still remains. Taking “personhood” away from corporations. Restoring Habeus Corpus. Restoring the Posse Commitus (sp). Removing the National Guard completely from presidential seizure…
What else? I ain’t even getting into what we *need* like health care, subprime bailouts and the like, but what we must “fix*.
OT
I know some of you won’t be able to sleep tonight without knowing what the 3 leaders of “Americanamex” have agreed to after 2 days of meetings so here it is:
link
…In a joint statement issued Tuesday, the leaders agreed to:
* Develop common protocols through the Canada-Mexico-United States Emergency Management Council to manage the movement of goods and people, including emergency responders, across borders during a natural or man-made emergency, such as a terrorist attack or outbreak of avian flu.
* Advance multilateral trade liberalization through a successful conclusion to the World Trade Organization Doha Round of negotiations.
* Strengthen co-operation on identifying and stopping unsafe food and products before they enter the three countries.
* Look for ways to co-operate on national auto fuel efficiency standards and work together to develop clean energy technologies and resolve global warming.
* Streamline regulations and make them compatible in order to enhance the flow of trade on the continent and eliminate redundant testing and certification requirements.
* Better measure the scope of and improve the detection and deterrence of counterfeiting and piracy in North America. Expand public awareness of the importance of intellectual property rights
in protecting North American economies and consumer health.
* Develop a plan to respond to increasing pressures on American, Mexican and Canadian competitiveness in the global markets.
With files from the Canadian Press….
Feel free to add your own snark.
here’s the page about brian baird from npr today……
article, and the link to listen to it………
http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..d=13831832
So, Congress don’t read the bills and Bush don’t read the paper. Oy.
Scarecrow @ 107 -
well, i’m probably an outlier… but i’d be significantly less pissed at congress (especially the house) if they did something. it doesn’t have to be impeachment (although, imo, there is no excuse not to impeach gonzales).
their votes on iran, the secret trade deal, the lame “oversight” hearings where too many dems seem more interested in sound bite than in getting to the truth, fisa and most of all i hate the political theater meant to obscure what’s going on.
they could have done the right thing on all of the above – those should have been easy compared to impeachment and/or ending the iraq occupation.
they’er not even doing the “easier” stuff…
BLAST from the past:
I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood–unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.– BY JOE LIEBERMAN
Tuesday, November 29, 2005
twolf1 @ 101
respond
My reply…
Jack,
Sometimes it feels like this country is under a coup without one shot being fired.
Senator Dodd just lost this Democrats support. Impeachment requires hearings and there is so much overwhelming evidence that Bush lied us into war and countless other high crimes. Congress must investigate and hold him accountable!
Dodd is ignoring his oath of office which only looks like an acceptance that the US is run by a dictator who cares not for the constitution or rule of law.
Impeach and send him to the Hague!
montag @ 116
sorry i wasn’t clear – i meant that consideration for supreme court justice appoinments would probably be enough to get me to vote for senator clinton in the general election.
i don’t see myself voting for senator clinton in the primary (probably edwards or kucinich)
twolf1 @ 101
respond
I responded … but I was so foul-mouthed I won’t get on the air. I couldn’t help it.
fdlreader@91: I was pretty fascinated with the article. I wish I had bookmarked it. I hope it applies to humans but animals are wiser creatures judging by our numerous pets.
Maybe Baird & the other war switcheroos should be reading the dissenting opinions of the experienced people who far outnumber the few neocon nuts that have the wh ears.
Montag@116 – There are going to be at least two openings on SCOTUS during the next Presidency. So the issue IS indeed gaining the Court or losing it totally for the next few decades.
foulis @ 121
Can’t say there is anything too comforting in that lot. Eliminating redundant testing makes me a little twitchy.
selise @ 124
The Dems took over Congress and the Repubs knew they would blink first when it came to all of the oversight the Dems were talking about. Plus, the “debates” took place so soon that the leading voices for the Democrats, Biden, Kucinic, Obama and Dodd, are flying at 35,000 feet right now and don’t have the capacity to get down in the trenches and fight it out. And someone, please, tell Conyers to take a hike. Seniority is one thing, but when you are as ineffectual as that putz, someone in the Democractic leadership has to reign him in, and nominate someone else that has some cajones, figuratively, of course, to get after some real oversight. I nominate Whitehouse.
ccmask @ 112
It is also a hell of lot cheaper than doing “real” news reporting. Kinda like covering the circus. They gets the peanuts and Cracker Jacks for free.
But that’s exactly what the MSM Bosses want. “Put ‘em in the cheap seats babe, ’cause it fattens my wallet, doncha know?”
Scarecrow @ 107
It is becoming clearer to me that Democrats are all spouting the same talking points about impeachment, which must be coming from the leadership. Its all the same spineless whining that unfortunately seems to have become part of the Democratic brand. I think Glenn’s essay quoted up top is right on the money.
Bob in HI
bmaz @ 117
oh, i agree it was kabuki – but the kabuki makes it hard to figure out all the players who are responsible…
bmaz @ 80
Ding! Ding! Ding!
It is just this basic folks.
That said, I am with OK Kiddo. I wish to hell that Gore would run. If he doesn’t, then I would love to see Edwards get the nomination…but if he doesn’t and Hillary or Barack gets instead, I will work my ass off to see that he or she is elected. I was NEVER a Bill Clinton fan, but at least he was sane.
It seems to me increasingly difficult to argue that the reason the Democrats don’t oppose Bush’s policies is merely because they are weak, or divided. Surely, at some point, it becomes more plausible to argue that they really agree with Bush about certain things.
I think it’s more plausible to conclude that the main reason the Democrats won’t pull American troops out of Iraq is because, like the Republicans, they believe that it is essential to America’s strategic interests to retain military control of the oil reserves of the Persian Gulf.
If the US could maintain neo-colonial control of the world’s oil, then it could use its military power to force the Chinese and the Indians and Japanese and the Europeans to pay American oil companies a surcharge for the privilege of buying oil.
The really significant question is, why do the Democrats still believe that the goal of controlling the Middle East’s oil through force is achievable? Unlike Bush and the Republicans, they could afford politically to recognize the fact that the US army has utterly failed to achieve this goal. But they still back Bush’s policy, even though it would be very much in their political interests to break with Bush on this point. Why do they do this? One horrifying possibility that occurs to me is that the Democrats think the US can still conquer the Middle East, and take its oil, if the US is willing to use nuclear weapons against Iran. The fact that the Senate recently unanimously back the Lieberman Amendment, and accused Iran of killing US troops, suggests to me that its at least possible that the Democrats may fully expect Bush to use nuclear weapons before he leaves office.
Maddogs: The Republicans have all the campaign money they need. All they lack now is to figure out how to get it out of our wallets into their pants.
Woodhall Hollow @ 136
Yup, ditto.
Mad Dogs @ 103
Oh yeah, hoo boy. It’s fired up the base alright! Maybe enough to change the cushy world the political consultants live in. Fools!
selise @ 127
Oh. I may have misread this then. What Selise says without a doubt. My pick is Gore, but if he doesn’t run, probably Edwards.
p.s. pow wow – if you’re still around… just wanted to say thank you for all the work you did uncovering the fisa debacle.
montag@166 – if Rove isn’t fearful of Edwards he should be. His greatest fear is the Honorable Al Gore so let’s give him a real headache:
ReElect President Gore & VP Edwards 2008!
Imagine eight years of President Gore followed by eight years of President Edwards.
That ought to do the trick to take our party and country back. Hillary needs more seasoning in the U.S. Senate – who knows she may actually become a true Democrat over those sixteen years.
;~)
I think David Vitter (R-epulsive) left for Iraq today. Maybe he can do something over there.
New thread upstairs…
This country has been ahead of congress & tradmed on so many fronts for quite awhile now.
I’m about exhausted waiting for them to catch up.
bobschacht @ 134
Saturday Morning I’ll be Meeting and Greeting with Mazie at the Hilo Farmer’s Market, Impeachment will be the first question I’ll be asking…!!! *g*
ironranger @ 129
There’s a longstanding human desire to be separate from the animal world … as in we are somehow annointed by god or whatever, special, higher beings. It has coloured biological science but it hasn’t held up. Over and over again it is shown that basic human faculties are ‘enjoyed’ by animals. We aren’t that special in but a few more and more delimited ways. I am not offended, but I don’t know why.
I expect that these group/tribe behaviours have a basis in being mammals, rather than being human vs. deer. And then there are fish and all their behaviours in ’schools.’
All life is sacred and special and miraculous.
WH at 136
I have to keep reminding myself that the Supreme Court is the real prize.
The problem, in my view, is that any Supreme Court nominee going forward is going to have to pass a number of ideological screens.
I want a Supreme Court justice who adheres to the thinking behind and the framework of the Constituion.
dmac @ 122
That was the war machine mantra in Vietnam… “We are making progress. Only six or eight more months are needed to finish this off.”
The Tet offensive cut two ways. 1) It showed the anti-war population that the North was able to muster men and weapons all the way to the southern tip of the country and mount effective attacks. 2) It gave rise to the spin from the war machine that Tet was it, that Ho Chi Min had thrown in the last of his reserves, and only clean-up operations remained.
One statement is factual, and it followed years of relatively accurate action reports. The other statement may or may not be factual… But it followed a series of statements made by the war machine that have since been proven to be lies… All the way back to the beginning.
Lying liars and the lies they go to war with.
bmaz @ 130
Not exactly true. The court is already gone, on essential issues, thanks to capitulations in the last Congress–and, more to the point, at the appeals level, which is now so completely stuffed with wingers that the system already has been gamed. (How many cases did the Supreme Court accept last season? 50? 60? Out of many, many thousands.)
But, that wasn’t the point. The point was that if Rove is doing head fakes now wrt Clinton, it may well be that she’s his chosen Dem–for obvious reasons–and anything that pushes her toward a nomination may be playing into the `pugs’ hands, in which case, things may turn out much, much differently than you think or hope.
Remember, the `pugs have to have it close to steal it.
montag at 116 says-”That doesn’t seem like quite enough reason, very possibly, to move with Rove’s head fake. What if Edwards is the candidate Rove really fears?”
i read that’s who he was afraid of last time, which is why he attacked kerry……
selise @ 106
Thanks for this link to Jeralyn’s post, which provides an excellent background explanation for why so few Democratic presidential candidates are making a big deal about BushCo’s power grabs: Apparently, all except Dodd want all that power for themselves!
Its just disgusting.
Bob in HI
ccmask @ 144
I have a sneaking suspicion that he won’t use his $5.00 on a rug.
-GSD
bobschacht @ 153
i don’t think it’s all but dodd… don’t forget feingold and whitehouse – and there’s probably a bunch more… it’s just really hard to figure out where everyone stands when the process seems designed to obscure.
fdl reader @ 128
I responded, too, but I don’t like their online format where you can’t see the question you’re responding to, while you write your answer. Unfortunately, I didn’t save a copy of what I wrote, but it was along the lines of impeachment being a civic duty, and how impeachment and trial are two separate things.
Bob in HI
montag @ 151
Two is a minimum, it may well be three justices. furthermore, with a Democratic president, I would consider expanding the court if necessary to retrieve it to common sense. to me, fear of whatever the hell Karl Rove is thinking is not a good enough reason to elect Rudy over ANY democrat, even if it is Hillary. Like I said, clinton is not my choice, but she is better than any Republican by a light year.
CTuttle @ 147
Good! And please take notes and report back, at
http://pd-hawaii.com/blog/2007…..e-people/, and leave your notes in a comment.
Bob in HI
Fern @ 131
OH, where to start. Where to start. Looks like a bunch of nonsense cover for nonsense.
OK … so does that mean Canada can stop testing for BSE and the border will stay open or will the U.S. actually require honest testing for BSE in the States …?
AND … will the U.S. be civil to Canada regarding NAFTA disagreements …
And that bit about global warming? BWAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA.
selise @ 155
But Feingold and Whitehouse are not candidates for the presidency. If you can provide a link to any of the candidate’s websites equivalent to the Dodd link that I posted, I’d be grateful.
Bob in HI
bobschacht @ 160 –
thought your “all” was referring to congress, sorry. as for presidential candidates… i’d expect kucinich, gravel and paul have spoken and voted against an imperial presidency.
ironranger – thanks for bringing that up. I posted something similar on another site where someone was speculating that this idea of democracy was a failure. No – democracy is completely and totally natural and organic. The only thing that might be experimental is applying it as such a large scale. Scale makes a big difference – after all, the Amish are very successful at communism on a local scale.
montag @ 151
no, they really don’t, they kept it close because they thought they had it in the bag, there is no reason for these brazen criminals to keep it close, now that they know how much America hates them they have nothing to loose by being brazen
then they can point to the dismal ratings of democrats and say they got what they deserved
the machines are everything, the voting officials are everything
and they have somehting up thier sleeve to unload about clinton too.
they aren’t attacking her now becuase they want her to be the candidate, they have so much inunendo it will be easy to get the anti clinton vote out
a democrat is not a slam dunk, no way, no how
The Blue Dog and New Democrat Coalition are just rubber-stamp Bush wolves in sheep clothing.
That is, they claim that they are Democrats, when they really are just rubber-stamp Republicans in disguise, selected and put in office by the conservative DLC, which I’m believing more and more was (and still is) just a Republican plant, meant to subvert the progressive, liberal Democratic Party from within.
I think back over the course of the last few months and think of the stories that have come and gone:
*Impeach Bush
*Impeach Cheney
*Impeach Gonzales
*Gonzales’ lies will force him to resign
*Monica Goodling
*Sarah whatshername
*Larita Doan and her cookies and Hatch Act violation
*Iraq
*Iraq Occupation
*Deaths in Iraq
*The trillions to keep the occupation in Iraq going
*Iran
*Inherent contempt
*Harriet Myers no show after being supeonaed(sp). (I know that isn’t even close but I hope you can forgive me for not looking it up)
*Lies, lies, and more lies by anyone and everyone in the Executive Branch
*Karl Rove (ick)
*Corruption
*Scooter Libby
*Valerie Plame (see also treason by the above and our esteemed VP)
*FISA
*Card and Gonzales late night visit to the to get Ashcrofts signature to authorize a little illegal spying. Thus I guess making it suddenly legal.
*Budget Deficit
*Federal Attorney purge
*Torture
*Voter caging
*Election fraud and tampering
*SChip
*etc etc etc etc etc
And what do all of these have in common? Nothing has been done about it and for the most part after a week or so they’re forgotten. Sure they all surface from time to time but they all seem to get buried again pretty quickly. In the meantime we continue to lose our freedoms, our taxes are going to pay for an occupation of a sovereign nation while our schools fail to educate our children and our infastructure crumbles. We are a laughingstock in the world community and we are no longer #1 in anything other than shame and brutality.
No one is held accountable for anything and the criminals in the Bush administration continue business as usual w/out retribution. The people we elected and put our faith in to clean this mess up for the most part have all fallen in with the bad kids on the other side of the aisle and the people are feeling increasingly powerless to do a damn thing about it.
What is the answer? Accept things the way they are and hope to live our lives so we have a shred of happiness. Demonstrate in the streets in a way to shut down Washington DC for a few days, a week, a month, or until 1/20/2009. Or try to figure out a way to get our government working again with elected officials who remember they work for us and that they took an oath of office to defend this nation and its Constitution.
Frankly the way this country is going it’s getting dangerous to ones freedom to do anything other than the first option. I guess that’s why we need to take back the reigns as quickly as we can before the comment of the USA being a police state isn’t just a joke.
Sorry for the long-winded comment. I’m just getting extremely frustrated about the way the Democrats are acting in an attempt to go along to get along.
dmac @ 61
bodies (dead)
The Oracle..@ 164
er, when was that ” progressive, liberal Democratic Party” last sighted?
“The Blue Dogs Made me Do It!” is just the latest figleaf concealing the real story, which is that the national Democratic Party shares the same goals as the Repugs, a consolidated Corporate Authoritarian state, that imprisons more of its population per capita than any other country in the world, and is on a permanent war footing when not actually invading and bombing anyone.
The DLC is just open about it, while the rest feel the need to mouth platitudes to conceal their actual policies.
montag @ 116
imvho
bingo!
fdl reader @ 73
Her husband certainly does hump ole Poppy’s leg enough, don’t he? Maybe he’s getting hisself a bit of that Carlyle kibble on the side.
Politics do make strange bedfellows.
selise @ 142
Thank you, selise! You did an outstanding job of researching and putting it all together with links galore here and in your DailyKos diary. Everyone now has an extremely informative and easy to read resource on the FISA-gutting process, because of your efforts, that summarizes what we outsiders, some insiders and a few reporters have been able to pry out from behind the closed doors of Congress thus far:
Http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/9/175141/9215
Principled Congressional insiders: We need your help! Without accurate information about the actors involved, our aim will necessarily be wild (meaning you’ll likely get caught in the cross-fire, Senator Whitehouse, et al…). If you want allies for your cause and in your concealed caucus struggles against corrupt leadership – consider quietly giving a tip or two to the principled and trustworthy selise and FDL blogmasters, or others you know, that could help accurately guide our efforts to exert pressure where pressure is sorely needed (as someone helpfully did with the tip to Alter about Conyers).
All those in the Legislative Branch’s Democratic leadership and caucus who actively choose to simply let the rule of law – which, as to impeachment, is uniquely and solely in their hands to assert and uphold on our behalf – slide, as politically “inconvenient” to enforce (or for no stated reason at all), are quite simply choosing to actively overthrow the rule of law that was created and ratified by way of the Constitution of the United States of America. Such a lawless status quo must be condemned and overcome, for all our sakes.
Playing toy soldiers with big trucks and planes, with someone else’s actual money and someone else’s actual human lives in the balance, may seem more “fun” to Members of Congress than adhering to, and enforcing, a limited Constitutional system of government intended to protect our personal liberty and inalienable human rights, but that “fun” is going to ricochet right back in their faces, sooner or later, with the full force and fury of the violence that they have willingly unleashed and fueled at our expense – and the blowback won’t just be from the “terrorists” who have been terrorized by our military. We, the people will not give up our inalienable rights without a fight – and there are a lot more of us out here than there are of you, federal “representatives.”
At least half of us have no particular allegiance to any political party faction, and a growing contempt for both major organized political parties now in control of our bankrupt federal treasury and our secret federal police powers that are increasingly turned on us. Congressional Democrats continue to toy with that dry-powder-packed keg at their peril.
ever since J. Edgar Hoover ran the FBI like his own personal Stasi, the “secret federal police powers” have been turned on members of Congress, and no doubt used extensively for behind the scenes arm-twisting and other means of ‘persuasion.’
all the more amazing that they would cede more powers to the secret police than they already have.
I am begining to think that some Democrats are growing weary of the Democrat leadership and as a result may well sit home and not go out and vote in ‘08. I also believe that the leadership see progressives just as “worker bees”….only job is to get Democrats elected and that’s it, but not as people who should be listened to.
Its time for Dems VOTERS to start kicking some political butt and telling folks in Washington what they want. Sure we support the troops get them home now.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 7
Buh…Buh…buh…that’s what The Hill DOES. That’s what SHE IS ALL ABOUT. Triangulating, short term, tactical attempts ot GET ELECTED. That policy stuff…that’s fer BLOGGERS ‘N SUCH.
Nicely put. The ‘Political Aristocracy’ is in for a real big surprise ’cause they truly do not understand what the blogosphere is all about….
Millions of citizens ruthlessly winnowing the ‘turkey herd’ of Levins, Pelosis, Emmanuels, Schumers et. al. We will not be going away and we will be electing folks who will not just ‘fight for our rights…’ but who will protect them against all comers. ReThug or Bush Dog you moral cowards had better look out!
‘Cause we are comin’ for ya.
Visit yer nearest ActBlue page and give ‘For a Blue Majority Now!’
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
I think you are absolutely right on this. I see her as a corporatist and a manipulator who will continue the policies that screw the middle class. I pray she is not the nominee. The GOP is salivating waiting to begin the smear campaign that in my opionion will be very successful. I simply cannot understand her place in the polls. It has to be media hype.
Alecia @ 172
You are right. I know several DEMs that are so fed up they have completely tuned out. I don’t know whether they will vote or not.
There’s a real gem of a comment among many other excellent comments written in response to the post of Glenn’s that Jane links above. I hope the (professional?) writer doesn’t mind, but I think this commentary deserves as much exposure as possible – especially on the off chance that a Member of Congress might see it and remember what it was like to have a conscience – so I’m copying here a few incisive excerpts of the superbly word-crafted analysis by “Little Brother” from Page 12 of Salon’s comments (most emphasis added):
http://letters.salon.com/opini…..l?show=all
pow wow @ 170
amen.
This is the reason for Democratic “ineptitude”, “cowardice” etc. The DO NOT WANT TO WIN. Why? If the Ds get the presidency and solid majorities in both houses, they will be forced to put up or lose all future support from their base.
The only reason the Ds have any support at all is that they have fooled a large number of people into thinking that they actually favor progressive policies and would implement them if only they could take power. They (their leadership, which still leads the party) actually favor pretty much the same policies as the Rs. They support the bare minimum of progressive figleafs in order to maintain that illusion. The real function of the party is to prevent a real opposition party from forming (with a huge assist from a severely anti-democratic electoral system).
The Democrats have showed great courage and cleverness in standing up for their principles in the face of massive opposition from the base of their party. This time is very dangerous for them because the Rs have alienated so much of the electorate that the Ds may be put in power with nothing to hide behind. Look forward to more massive “blunders” and “betrayals”. The latest Gallup poll has Congress far less popular than Bush.
What I find most upsetting about the Democratic party is the lack of support for what appears to me the only two candidates that I would consider voting for, that would be Biden and Kasinich (sp). They are the only two who have given a direct answer to any major question ask of them. I am so sick and tired of Hillery and Obama I could puke. They are just more of the same shit we have now. They dance all around questions and never answer anything, and look at them in the Senate, watch when they cast their vote. Do they lead the charge and vote first, noooooooooooo. They cast their vote near the end. Do they LEAD the charge to vote or do they wait and see how the water is flowing? For once I would like to see Hillery and Obama answer one question of import with a “YES” or a “NO”.
It takes real guts to lead and I do not see that from the “TOP” candidates in this race. Biden and kasinich(sp) regardless of how I feel on the subject answered with a decisive answer. I respect someone who will say exactly where they stand. My vote will go to the one who is honest and forthright with answers and I do not think I am the only one out there that feels this way.
Like Dr. Z said over at kos – These folks are Fainting Goat Democrats
You gotta see the vid. Very appropriate.