Atrios links to a post by Ed Cone regarding a column written by Michael Skube, who dismisses blogs with a wave of his lordly hand:
He quotes a study that finds that “the typical blog is written by a teenage girl who uses it twice a month.”
“navel-gazing goes but so far.”
Skube says, “A reporter, if he’s worthy of being called one, respects the craft’s cardinal rules: accuracy, impartiality, fairness, verification, proper attribution.”
[]
He was uncomfortable with the lack of editors at blogs. I asked if he was familiar with the concept of peer editing, which is how blogs correct each other. He said he’d heard of it, as used by students in public schools, where “the peers who edit are the people least suited to do it.” (my emphasis)
When Ellen Goodman wrote a piece in the Boston Globe about the dearth of women in the liberal blogosphere, I contacted her to challenge that assertion. She said that her failure to mention or quote even one single successful woman blogger was due to her “word limit.” In her article she also cited a study of the “90 top political blogs” and concluded from looking this over that in the liberal blogosphere men are more likely to link to men, but the fact is that the 90 top political blogs aren’t all liberal and include a large number of conservative blogs. I asked to see the research because I had serious questions about the methodology and the conclusions she reached. She told me to contact her again after Labor Day and she’d check to see if the researcher was comfortable being contacted.
If I say in a post that 61% of Americans think Congress shouldn’t fund the war without timetables, I link to the source of my information because my “peer editors” know that there’s a difference between a Washington Post poll or a Rassmussen poll or a Quinnipiac poll and they want to be able to look at the way that questions are phrased, the sampling and the methodology. I’d have my ass summarily handed to me in a bold and public fashion if I tried to fob off statistics with some obvious flaws that I based my entire thesis upon and then refused to produce them when asked.
I guess our “peer editors” are a bit more exacting than those at the Boston Globe.
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uno!?!
zed?
Ha! a birthday zed!
dos
Jane!!
On the internet, there’s no excuse for not linking in sources. Pity this is’t applied across the board.
I used to like Ellen Goodman, she was funny as hell. Whatever has happened to her?
OldCoastie @ 3
Happy birthday to you! Happy to contribute to your birthday present via competition for the zed ;-)
What do they call it when you raise your glass?
Toast.
Peer editing works great for me.
I gets to learn stuff and things.
so Goodman essentially said that the premise of her article was dictated by her word limit??
geez, that’s a stretch…
Ohio police ticket man for “littering” after he posts an “Impeach Bush” sign in a public park. Rant ensues:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..tment.html
I just put my 5,000th piece of litter up in Berkeley.
Then why are almost all of our estimable and respectable “journalists” writing blogs?
OldCoastie @ 10
It’s ridiculous. No, she started out with a premise and selected the facts to fit. I freaking HATE this, and have seen it in place for decades, never mind the rampant presence of it now. Newsweek and Time magazine were early offenders.
Jane, just goes with the narrative that there are no female bloggers. Blogging without a codpiece is not acceptable.
bg @ 5
How was everyone’s weekend?
psst, Jane – it’s Monday…
The impression I have from commenting on a few blogs it that I darn well better have my stuff together (as in biblioigraphy, etc.) or I’m going to catch hell.
scarlet p. @ 11
A milestone for everybody’s favorite litterbug!
Ah just one more post that makes me say- Jane- I love you & your writing!!!
How does Skube reconcile his attitude about the lack of editors on blogs (as he sees it) with his admission to Josh Marshall that his editor added unchecked information into his opinion column? Skube seemed to have no problem with unsubstantiated truthiness being put into something under his name:
So much for Skube’s “cardinal rules.”
I may not be a peer, but your linky to Ellen Goodman’s article no worky.
Boston Globe is owned by the New York Times. We all know how exacting the NYT editorial standards are.
I asked to see the research because I had serious questions about the methodology and the conclusions she reached. She told me to contact her again after Labor Day and she’d check to see if the researcher was comfortable being contacted.
you nailed it jane, it’s obvious she has no “research” to back herself up
what she is doing is ‘researching to see if there might be research’ which she will then use as a referance even if that research is a tortured stretch
The blogosphere is a much more severe (and tireless) and thorough critical atmosphere than any so-called MSM peer-editor context. These days, politicians in general are really spooked by the blogosphere. And these days, hardly any day passes without MSM, especially cable MSM, obsessing about it–and about YouTube, which as a vlog I consider part of the blogosphere.
oops, sorry, misread – the weekend was HOT! (but not in a good way)
OldCoastie @ 16
Uh, please note that she asked how our weekend was, i.e., past tense; not is which would have been present tense.
Oh, and Happy Birthday.
MayDaze @ 21
Thank you for that graphic demonstration. Fixed.
Maybe it’s just me but I believe blogging is an expression that comes from a compelled personal response…
You work with your particular strengths and your passion…
But it’s good to do your homework too…
Further adventures in stoopit logic:
That’s like saying no one should read Michael Cunningham’s The Hours because LindaR wrote Carleson Peak (which, tellingly, has no link).
He quotes a study that finds that “the typical blog is written by a teenage girl who uses it twice a month.”
Well, FDL ain’t typical. If that’s what a blog is.
We had HOT weather this weekend. I made some jam. I read. I rested.
May I say that Ellen Goodman can go fuck herself?
Thanks.
Jane,
Your point about citing sources illustrates one of the reasons I’ve become addicted to the better blogs such as FDL. “Research” is my middle name, and as such, I always want to see the sources. Hyperlinks were one of the greatest inventions of html code, and a fantastic advance in serious research. As an occasional blogger myself, I appreciate the additional work it takes to provide good source links, and how the pressure to provide good source information prevents me (sometimes) from blathering on like an idiot.
The FDL comment interface that makes it easy to embed a link, rather than pasting a long and ugly url into a narrative, adds much to the value of the comments. I appreciate it!
To me, any essay without footnotes is essentially an opinion piece, of dubious value. The lead posts on FDL, and many of the comments, elevate the discourse appreciably. Thanks for shaping the standards of FDL, and FDL traditions, the way you have done!
Bob in HI
You know I am more uncomfortable about the lack of editors at the New York Times and the Washington Post. Oh and by the way, blogs have many, many editors. They are called commenters.
Stop, you’re killing me here. The media have gone in the toilet during the Bush Administration. Reporters have been reduced to lazy, sloppy, unprofessional shills and stenographers. The critique of the liberal blogosphere is precisely the absence of accuracy, impartiality, fairness, verification, and proper attribution. What kind of cloud cuckooland is Skube inhabiting that he hasn’t noticed? Why is it that traditional media have such problems in recognizing that unkempt drunk in the mirror as themselves?
peanutbutter @ 6
She became a serious writer?
Seriously, I experienced the same shift as you, and am equally disappointed.
Bob in HI
Written by teenage girl and used twice a month. Oh Cassie?
Don’t worry all the FDL columnists….I mean, you were teenagers once…..wern’t you?
I guess then FDL’s Cassie (snarkykassandra) would be untypical?
Bustednuckles @ 9
And I learns to expound my vocabulary, too!
Bob in HI
perris @ 23
There’s probably research and it may even reach the conclusions she says it does but either it doesn’t look at the “90 top political blogs” or there’s nothing you can gleen specifically about the liberal blogosphere from it. How do you come by the “90 top political blogs?” Are we talking traffic or Technorati links? How do you determine “male?” How does the person conducting the research account for pseudonymous bloggers of indeterminate gender? How are group blogs with a mixuture of male and female bloggers accounted for? Does the rain in Spain stay mainly on the plane?
I’m not surprised she doesn’t want to produce it because there have to be a lot of assumptions made and we’d probably quite rightly pick them apart. Unless you actually know the people and understand how various blogs are run (which she wouldn’t, because she didn’t talk to anybody who did) you’re probably reaching a whole lot of bad conclusions.
Hugh @ 33
Pulitzer’s kind of in the shitter ever since they gave it to Sue Schmidt.
Biodun @ 12
And why is one of the best FDL “led” by a woman?
Phuck em. They’re afraid of us!
dave @ 31
Hmm, do you have a link for that? You know, journalistic integrity.
It’s been over a year now since we decided not to buy newspapers any more. We live in a one-paper town so journalistic standards range from poor to non-existent. We keep well-informed by reading blogs, online papers and ezines. We have much less paper to recycle and we’re not paying to have our intelligence insulted. All in all, a good result.
How was your weekend, Jane?
I keep admiring this photo, from APoD yesterday.
Also, I found a handsprinkler at the big-box store yesterday that looks remarkably like a ray-gun, complete to trigger-guard. Oooh, Halloween prop (however, probably not safe for airplanes and government buildings)! (The trip was in search of hose bibb and garden hosen, which I did get.)
Jane Hamsher @ 15
Too short, even though we had a holiday last Friday. I only got halfway through my list of projects, and failed to clear off some table space. But I got to see my Congress critter!
Bob in HI
Hugh @ 33
Fact:
I know that an FDLer who is writing his/her doctoral dissertation has said (on this blog several weeks ago) that the thinking and material on FDL has helped frame and focus the arguments in his/her dissertation considerably. (Don’t worry I won’t reveal your handle.)
I have a reward system for my math students. Any kid that catches a mistake I make in class gets special recognition and 5 bonus points to be factored into their grade at the end of the term. And these guys watch me like a hawk. It’s works pretty well. That’s what I call bottom-up editing.
Jane,
Hope this doesn’t count against your or my “word-count” *g*
So people should rely on newspapers for accuracy because of editorial review rather than Blogs?
NO ONE should rely on ANY writer without checking facts- everyone fucks up
Who is Shakira and why is she bumping and grinding on the bottom of my screen?
Basically, we have better people on this blog than the uh….I can’t call them the msm, they’re so far out of the main stream it’s not even funny…..but then they do, with a couple of exceptions. And if the msm gets discredited completely, I doubt they’ll stay.
Hurricane Dean. I’ve been watching the motion of the eye on NHC loop. Cozumel thinks it’s going to get missed, because they’ve been saying it is going to hit in Chetumal, but from what I can tell, it is slipping a little north, and I think it’s going to hit Tulum. That is bad for Cozumel.
Interesting that FDL even fact checks other supposed journalists:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..som-smear/
I guess that’s another way FDL is atypical. This blog even does the job of teevee journalists.
(Hmm, oxymoron? teevee, journalist. You decide.)
Apparently, Dick Cheney doesn’t feel he should have to respond to the sobpoenas from the SJC.
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0820.html
Hugh @ 33
Indeed. The decentralized and comprehensive pool of commenters does a far more effective job at teasing out lack of research, poorly supported facts and so on. What the media is probably really afraid of is that the huge pool of commenters working to verify and fact check blows every single editor, no matter how good, completely out of the water. And for free!
persiflage @ 42
I mentioned this last week, but I’d like to invite others to join me. I’m canceling my L.A. Times subscription and plan to send the subscription fees to FDL instead.
This argument of Ellen Goodman has a lot of potential.
Alberto Gonzales: I didn’t lie to Congress about the NSA program and the Attorney firings, it was just that the hearings were too short.
George Bush: I didn’t add the part about how Iraq was going to be an unmitagated disaster because there wasn’t enough space on the teleprompter.
Dick Cheney: When I said in 1994 that invading Iraq was a really stupid idea they cut to a commercial before I got to say, “Except in the case of terrorist attack.”
I don’t know why she is at the bottom of your screen but you could at least share.
Every time that I have read newspaper articles about something of which I had personal knowledge, the reporters got a least some part of the story wrong. Not a minor nitpick, a major error. Of course, none of these were earth-shattering issues, but the lack of accuracy and attention to detail was striking.
Back in the early 90’s, Ellen Goodman ran a series of articles about repressed memory and therapists who were helping women remember abuse in their childhood.. I witnessed lives shatter (needlessly, imo) as a result of that series.. stopped reading her then.
Oh, and as for copy editors, try making a mistake upstairs. We’re all watching down here. Fact checkers….uh….I wouldn’t say the Emptywheel and Looseheadprop and Christy, and I could go on…..(by that I mean, everyone who writes here) need fact checkers. You learn more about why some of the crap the King is trying to pull is important when you read FDL than you do when you read the NYT. Just read an article about more power grabbing by the king…in the NYT…..NO BACKGROUND AT ALL. It wouldn’t fly here!
My peer editor says “Go mow the lawn.”
Does this rub me the wrong way. Ellen Goodman wouldn’t have a word limit if she were a wordsmith. On the subject of research, I’ve done some serious research before publications that included field research, cross-checking, multiple interviews from many perspectives, studied numerous publications, employed cross referencing necessary to ensure accuracy. Finally, I was ready for the first draft to go to the editor. Next came several rewrites. Finally I was ready for publication. Grant you it was the University of California Press but my point is research is arduous. If your findings are not solid, don’t include them. It means the facts aren’t there to support your premise. Research is what I call hard labor and a labor of love.
So, where is this researcher she will contact to see if she is interested in explaining her “facts”? What a howl! Lady Gooman must think readers just swallow what she says as “the holy word”. Question, always question.
Thanks Jane for not letting her get by with throwing out anything without valid support of the facts. Enough of this off-the-wall fact finding.
Jane Hamsher @ 38
yep — V E R I F I C A T I O N
essential to reporting and justice
*g*
i’m a guy.
i blog.
i link to here and TNH all the time.
i come here ALL the time.
Not because we are all feministing here.
i get that from Amanda at Pandagon.
i came here because FDL is run by women.
BUT Not just because it is run by women:
BECAUSE:
these women offer analysis, insight, vision, knowledge, experience, expertise, commitment, and passion to the causes I believe in.
and they’re profane and good naturedly fem about it.
(well, unclaimed territories, is okay too. )(but i snark.)
Well, Central Ohio just got the remains of Tropical Depression Erin. Looks like monsoon season* in Columbus has arrived early this year.
*Normally October, but this year has been real strange.
I think Skobe is looking at too many teenage girl blogs and not enough political blogs, not enough technology blogs, not enough astronomy blogs, not enough art blogs, not enough music blogs, not enough automobile tuning and interest blogs, not enough sports blogs, not enough NPO blogs.
Go to a technology forum and see the debates and arguments rage over the minutae details. Go to a classic cars forum and see how fast a correction is made by a poster. It’s amazing and powerful. Peer correction nearly real-time, and people don’t have to wait an entire month with a corrections box tucked away in a magazine or newspaper.
Jane Hamsher @ 38
This is exactly right. It should be Journalism 101, but it seems like the MSM doesn’t care much about professional journalism any more. There are really good journalists “out there,” but they don’t get enough attention.
Incidently, Jane, you’re rediscovering the canons of academic research. Good job! :-)
Bob in HI
PS: I do want to thank Ms. Goodman for calling me a teenage girl. Haven’t been confused with one for decades.
bg @ 43
Went to a Yankee game. They won. Didn’t have a hot dog but had lots of fun.
She’s a Colombian/Lebanese pop singer. I kinda like her.
MayDaze @ 59
In my case, in every single case, it was clear in retrospect the reporter had already written the story and literally only “heard” what supported the story they had in mind. Arrrrrrrrrrgggghhhhhhh
Brisingamen @ 66
We have had NO rain in Georgia, none, zip, zilch. It’s been hotter than a well diggers ass in the Mohave and more humid than the frickin Mekong Delta!
Brisingamen @ 66
I’m sure Erin will be nicer to Ohio than she was to Oklahoma – big floods NW of the City.
If these people really knew what they were talking about they’d get busy and cover that Presidential Summit up in Canada. Who knows what’s really going on that good investigative journalism could find out. I’ve only seen about 30 seconds of coverage on CNN Headline news, along with his arrival. Why should Americans have to scour the Canadian press to find out about the protests. Something we didn’t get to see back in 2004 when Junior visited Canada “Canadian citizens who took to the streets to welcome him, carrying signs reading, “U.S. Out Of Iraq,” and “Go Home Mother Fucker.”
QuakerGirl @ 69
Did you get you flowers?
You know, when national MSM descended on Minneapolis after the I-35W bridge collapsed, the reporters got some basic facts wrong about the Twin Cities: the location of the key bridges across the river in Minneapolis, some basic facts about local politics, and so on. I wasn’t surprised in the least. But quite a few of my blogosphere-free friends certainly were. I was delighted to tell them that if MSM could get the facts wrong here in this locale, then think of the case in every other locale in the the US, much less in the world.
mc @ 53
i would call this damning our heroes with faint praise.
that bar is set way beneath FDL.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 48
I’ll never understand why more teachers/professors don’t do what you do.
Tithonia @ 71
Not my style, but she is very talented.
(Oh yeah, and for you rusties, NY has a new album coming out. The man’s got a lot to say these days.)
yellowdog jim @ 65
’scuse me….I’m not a feminist….whatever that means. I just don’t fucking care who is writing if it’s right, well done, factual….that’s got nothing to do with a person’s sex. And even some of the articles I’ve seen here that you MIGHT class as feminist, are not bashing men. They are simply declaring for women’s rights, and I, being a male old fart, don’t see that women’s rights is a women’s issue. It’s an all of us issue. We have some of the best information on the web. Like I say, and then I’ll shut up….they’re afraid of us, with good reason. If they’re act was together, they might not have so much to fear. But they are all such a crock of the proverbial substance, that the readers are coming here.
Sadly, this dork Skube *teaches* at a school in North Carolina.
[hangs head in shame]
From his Elon faculty bio:
Skube remarks, “ I’m congenitally contrarian. I’m a person of many shortcomings, but I have a sense of what I’m about and there are things I do well.”
Writes no better than he “remarks”.
QuakerGirl @ 69
i’d like to visit your blog.
please?
Raven @73 — My Mom is saying similar things about the weather in Northern Virginia this year.
It was hot/dry here in Ohio until the 2nd week of August, and then the rains came. Unfortunately, most have been thunderstorms, when we need 24 hour soaking rains to break the drought.
MayDaze @74 — saw that on the news this morning — Auwe! We’ve got some flash flood watches up, but so far no problems. (Knock wood)
raven @ 76
The only flowers I got were the ones I bought for myself this morning at my favorite nursery.
Hookers for Hillary? From CNN:
Hugh @ 57
There, fixed it for you. ;-)
QuakerGirl @ 85
QuakerGirl @ 85
That’s what I meant.
Hmm. I wonder what that might mean…
mc @ 80
I heard it’s supposed to be titled “Chrome Dreams II”. I also heard that the first Archives series is now delayed until next year. :-(
As far as the LA Times and reporting goes, the can get something wrong in almost any story. Like saying Titan is a moon of Jupiter (!), or the story where one of the several people ‘interviewed’ was a co-worker, who said later about the only thing they got right was his name. He was specifically including the quotes attributed to him, too.
MayDaze @ 74
Erin hit Northern Indiana last night. Not nearly as bad as being on the coast I’m sure, but there was enough thunder and lightning to make sure I got woken up by scared kids crawling into bed with us and then every 20 minutes with a small knee in the crotch.
And there has been quite a bit of rain all day. On my drive in to work I think my tires touched actual pavement a couple of times.
All-in-all it sure beats getting the full force of one of these things, but it still kind of sucks.
Biodun @ 89
Lysistrata, anyone?
peanutbutter @ 55
Part of the degradation in modern Journalism comes from the Corporate News budget cutting. And editors get cut, so less editing gets done. Editing is regarded by management as a burdensome expense. So there is a crossover here, between the declining editing of print journalism, and the rising citizen editing of the blogs. And I suspect that a lot of the Corporate Editing is devoted to maximizing entertainment value rather than accuracy, relevance, verifiability, etc.
Bob in HI
Wasn’t it Arianna who said that the good thing about blogs is that they “show their workings”. That is, good blogs link to their sources so you can see how the writer has reached his/her conclusions. That’s one thing I like about blogs like FDL, you’re encouraged to go and read the sources for yourself and make up your own mind. Newspapers are so desperate to be seen as authoritative that they dare not treat their readers like intelligent adults the way that blogs do.
Biodun @ 24
There are a number of reasons why there is more fact-checking in the good blogs than in the press. A simple one is that the owners of the traditional media simply cut fact-checking out of their budget. I remember when I worked as a proof-reader for the Digest of the Soviet Press, which was basically a CIA-financed translation operation. Our editors checked everything, and I mean everything. I raised this issue with an ex-student of mine who was op-ed editor for one of Conrad Black’s rags, and he admitted that they had sliced deep into the editorial staff. I mean, who knows the difference? Not the unwashed public who buy the stuff or watch it on Teevee.
Another reason is that there are some very tech-savvy people here who know how to chase down the links, and a whole lot of semi-retired academics who do or used to do this stuff for a living in an environment that, believe me, is infinitely tougher on people making mistakes than the news environment. Let’s face it. There are more pros in our camp than in theirs, and that’s the simple start and end of it.
The fine folks at The Group News Blog;
http://www.groupnewsblog.net/
link to the latest info about Ws GWOT (data provided at Center for American Progress);
http://www.americanprogress.or…..index.html
Some startling numbers for sure. Read the entire thing.
84% can’t be wrong. Can they?
mc @ 80
Neil?
linky?
Wow, that quote about peer-editing is pretty priceless. I have a related story to tell. I have been involved in the internet and open-source (mostly scientific) software for about 20 years. After various diversions into commercial software during large projects, I eventually found that the quality, durability, and even customer service of free, open-source software was far superior to almost any commercial software. The applicable (unattributable) quotation from the Open Source Software movement is: “Never, ever, underestimate the collective IQ of the internet!” The Open Source historian Eric Raymond wrote an interesting book called ‘The Cathedral and the Bazaar’ that is quite illuminating on this subject. Although there is quite a bit of geek-speak in it, I would recommend it to anyone as a valuable perspective on the ethos of what eventually turned into the blogosphere and all the other new media.
OT: There will be many Peace Actions in DC in September. I would strongly recommend showing up.
Guess what the the N.Y. Times journalists use for research? Wikipedia and their own archives. Saw that on C Span. Quit reading the Times after the second debate in ‘04 when they essentially said there was a debate. As a former psych. nurse, I knew Bush had some serious mental problems. Have also heard or read that the N.Y. Times has 1,000,000 subscriptions…which doesn’t seem like a lot. So if this is true…the rest of them must be in serious trouble. Hence…jealous of you.
1,573 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Patriots:
You go, gal!! The assault on blogs by the corporate print media is an indication of the “last throws” of relevance for print journamalism. Indeed, for over 25 years newspapers have been losin’ readership and influence in opinion-makin’ to talkin’ heads and “cable guys”. Newspapers will soon be simply advertisin’ broadsheets with little or no “news” coverage and one page editorials.
Don’t let the bastards off the floor when you see stuff like Skube’s er Goodman’s but don’t spend too much time on ‘em…the only difference between print “journalists” and dinosaurs is we won’t be able ta get oil from dead journalists.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE BASTARDS AREN’T GUNNA GIVE UP!!
raven @ 86
Madams for Madame President?
scarlet p. @ 11
It’s great that you’re doing this and I aplaude your courage and ingenuity. But doing it in Berkely is like preaching to the Choir.
Hey, we need a T shirt.
I’m a foul-mouthed fem-blog reader!
Or something…I’m sure someone can come up with something better….
Ya just gotta love all the attention being paid to these Irrelevant Great Unwashed blogs. LOL!
Lotta MSM Sour Graping going on these days.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 87
Thanks for the editing.
Dear Jane,
Should I grow up really really fast and not be a teenage girl anymore?
Or, can you prove her partially right and find me some more girl writers for youthinkleft.com?
Thank you!
Dear Jane, et. Al.:
I read this blog, thinkprogress, etc for reasoned, logical and in depth analysis and excellent reporting/analysis of court proceedings, congressional hearings and the news. You and yours do what journalists (traditional media) have rarely done. That is cutting through linguistic parsing, unnamed sources, and lazy reporting to glimpse at truth.
Why give these products of the offspring of inner breeding more bandwidth?
Raven @88
Thanks for remembering I went off to the nursery this morning. Molly had a good time. Every one there is her good friend including customers. So her morning was filled with oohs and aahs, lots of pets, admiration (which she can’t get enough of) and oodles of baby-talk. This is what she brings out in people. How can a six pound fur ball get such major attention?
I keep hoping I receive some flowers from a mysterious stranger but it never happens. So, I do something better, I buy my own. That way I get exactly what I like to suit my own taste.
Dismissing blogs is the modern equivalent of dismissing the ‘liberal’ media. Both are a passion of Repubics, mostly because they object to the content since it puts them in a nonfavorable, and accurate, light.
cynic @ 81
Guys like cynic and jim are the real men.
cynic @ 81
okay, i AM a feminist.
BECAUSE it is an all of us issue.
(that, and i LIKE to male bash: men are so boring!)
SnarKassandra @ 107
Keep it up Cassie. You put out the younger version of what they got here. The truth. Enjoy being a teenage girl while you can. It doesn’t last!
OT: Just noted the news that Leona Helmsley is dead at 87.
I’m guessing her last words were, “Only little people d–AAAACK!”
Hi Jane,
Sorry to be OT, but here’s the NY link:
http://www.thrasherswheat.org/wheatfield.html
I’m hoping Howie weighs in soon with his impressions of Neil’s new work.
once again the traditional media shows why I quite wasting my time reading or watching them.they just cant stop lying.thanks firedogs for putting the truth out there.
Jane,I read about about this at TBogg the other day. It sounds like you and Michelle Malkin had the same email exchange with Ms. Goodman.
TBogg link
EvilDrPuma @ 114
Another example of an evil blog comment. Somebody notify O’Reilly. hahahahahaha
Brisingamen @ 93
I sure hope so..for Hillary or any Dem.
I haven’t looked at a newspaper or TV news in ages. They blather about nonsense. FDL covers real issues.
Funny, I sent Ellen Goodman the following letter the day she wrote the “E-male” article. I did not receive a response. I think it’s safe to say she’s now aware of FDL:
Dear Ms. Goodman,
With all due respect, your E-male article is overblown. If you were tuned in to the blogosphere or you had done some additional research you might have discovered that a number of the most prominent voices coming from the netroots are female.
Jane Hamsher and Christy Hardin Smith have created a powerhouse blog at “Firedoglake” (heavily populated by smart, politically active, patriotic women) as has Marcy Wheeler at “The Next Hurrah” (Plamegate central along with FDL) and of course one of the earliest voices from the lefty netroots was Wonkette. Arianna Huffington’s “Huffington Post” is among the most widely read political blogs in existence. I could go on, but I think you see the point.
The turnout at YearlyKos is not a reflection of what comprises the liberal blogosphere, it’s a reflection of who among “We the People” (whom actually do make up the “angry” left blogosphere) could find the resources and/or the time to attend as we bust our asses trying to survive under yet another disastrous (for us common folks) GOP presidency. As with talk radio and it’s ratio of listeners to callers (
I thought that a lot of women went to YKos. Right?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 48
This says so much about what it is to be an engaged learner! One of the troubles with old ideas about media is too much focus on the “product” which consumers are supposed to “buy.” Blogs are far more focused on the process, blogs encourage engagement.
I still read my local paper. I buy the paper itself, but engage with the content. Somehow the producers of newspapers and magazines don’t quite understand this distinction.
TJ @ 111
That is so nice.
Thanks!
well, actually, i’m a dog, but don’t tell anyone.
SnarKassandra @ 122
Well, yeah, but Goodman is rounding to the nearest zero. It’s a methodological difference.
SnarKassandra @ 122
Yeah but we wore men’s clothing to confuse them.
yellowdog jim @ 124
As long as you aren’t a blue dog.
More blog fact checking and ball busting..
After 9/11, Rudy wasn’t a rescue worker — he was a Yankee
Giuliani said he spent as much time at ground zero as many rescue workers. Where was he really? Much of the time, at baseball games.
By Alex Koppelman
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/200…..=whitelist
You said “ass” you foul mouthed fem you.
Steve-AR @ 128
Rudy done hit himself a foul ball.
TJ @ 127
democratic blue blood, in a yellowdog’s body.
A note about the surge of troops into Iraq. Could it be a policy of
deception to mask the true intent of the troop build which is to
pre-position a larger force to implement the next front in the
war on Terror. Is it going to be Syria or Iran first. According to
Libermann today sounds like Syria is being put into play.
My dog Jake tells me that all these attacks on the blogs is right
out of the playbook of cyber-warfare.
SnarKassandra @ 107
I think you’re doing just great as-is. Keep up the good work.
i’m a guy.
I’m 61.
I blog. (non-politically)
I too come here ALL the time -
Because of the consistently high level of intelligence in evidence, and the true patriotism proffered by the writers and commenters.
Can’t begin to say the same of the MSM Courtiers.
But what lodges in the memory, and sometimes knifes us in the heart, is the fidelity with which a writer observes and tells. The word has lost its luster, but we once called that reporting.
Yeah, Skube, we still call what you do bloviating.
so guess what?
it’s the lead right now on think progress;
AGAIN cheney is claiming he is NOT part of the executive office
leahey ALSO claims the president actually tried to BAR congress from issueing subpeona
NANCY PELOSI WHAT ARE YOU WATING FOR?
EvilDrPuma @ 125
Well that explains it.
Geez, Ellen, it’s going to take you that long to pull a Stephen Glass?
And if you think that Jane’s going to forget about this come Labor Day, you’d better think again!
Saying “the typical blog is written by a teenage girl who uses it twice a month” is like saying “the typical printed page is a boring business letter that no one else cares about” and claiming that justifies dismissing all newspapers.
The existence of blogging software and services lets anyone publish about anything, but you have to be willfully ignorant to believe (or pretend to believe) that you can’t find the ones that seriously discuss news and politics.
perris @ 136
If the clock runs out, maybe all the hard things that need to be done will go away when the clock stops ticking. I’ve thought this through from many angles and this is the best I can come up with. : [
perris @ 136
ok, this HAS to be the water shed moment, the vice president is now MORE powerfull then the president, bot figuretively AND on paper
this is it boys and girls, the democrats HAVE GOT TO DO SOMETHING before it is too late
SnarKassandra @ 122
Yup. Look at any of the pictures of the crowds, and it’s plain to see that the entire line of attack was an exercise in deception.
here’s the lead on think progress;
joel achenback wrote today about blogs’ influence…….and the exchange that is happening between us all.
full disclosure-i found fiiredoglake because of him……..
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..newsletter
achenbacH NOT achenback………so many more words i type have ck and not ch
dmac I like that article.
MayDaze @ 59
Ditto.
Sometimes I’ll have a phone message from a reporter asking to talk with me about some aspect of the tax law (my arera of work).
I refuse.
The reporters with whom I’ve dealt have been only interested in writing a story. A story that’s a little catchy. Maybe even a little entertaining. Maybe having a clever turn of phrase.
If detail and accuracy get in the way of the story, screw ‘em.
Perris @143
Thanks for the post. That is just what my crystal ball said last week – no show, no listen to Congress, up yours.
Well, they are consistent and predictable.
perris @ 136
A “Dos Equis” clone of KKKarl Rove isn’t going to do nada.
Link please; ASAP !
The administration is “double-dog daring” Nancy to bring impeachment proceedings against it.
Certainly, Nancy now has an opening to put it back on the table. But, she has GOT to line up the R votes. That will take some serious arm-twisting, negotiating, sweet-talking during the next two weeks.
Yeah, it’s hard work but c’mon, it’s only the Constitution at stake here.
OT
On the earlier thread there was talk about Sara Taylor’s oath to the president err consititution. I had read about the loyalty oaths supporters had to take to get in to bush’s campaign audiences.
Here’s a old non dated pledge I some how missed.
TSA To Require Loyalty Oath to Fly!
by Kamal El-Din
Unconfirmed sources report that airline security will soon include a loyalty oath to the President of the United States. Specially trained TSA Political Officers will be stationed near metal detectors to administer the oaths. Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge says the oaths will play a big roll in ensuring the security of the American public.
The use of loyalty oaths to screen airline passengers has apparently been in the works for some months. The idea to use the oaths was sparked by the presidents re-election committee. The Bush Cheney campaign has been requiring loyalty oaths for people to gain admission to ‘public’ campaign events. The system has worked so well in providing the President a docile crowd the TSA decided it could work for the airlines.
…
The following is a draft copy of the oath that all airline passengers will be required to sign:
“I (full name) do herby endorse George W. Bush for re-election to the Presidency of the United States. I also promise to send ($100 or $1000 or $100,000) to the president’s campaign when I get home. I further promise not to support any criminal investigations of the president or the vice-president after the election.”
The ACLU is said to be studying the plan in detail to see if it violates any civil liberties. Vern Scruggs of the ACLU said, “We are going to take a long hard look at this plan. But I have to tell you, if this plan will make us safer we won’t mind giving up a civil liberty here or there.” Oath
dmac @ 144
Thanks for the linky. And here’s an especially nice snip:
One more thing: Good writing remains good writing regardless of platform. The Web tends to be a chattier place, more off-the-cuff, but it is still a place where readers appreciate a well-crafted sentence, a nuanced thought, a fully elucidated thesis and commentary undergirded by fact, honesty and a generosity of spirit.
And the readers who don’t like that stuff? A buncha jerks.
Perfect description of the Lake.
A case in point of a blog that has become a more valuable investigative tool than the type of place where Ellen Goodman hangs out is TPM and, especially in terms of our Alaska corruption stories, TPM Muckraker. Laura McGann alone has outdone ALL Alaska’s MSM outlets combined. That issue has come up there today in the (it seems) daily stories there about Don Young and Ted Stevens.
Laura has compiled information from various news sources, but has also gotten on the phone and dug stuff out herself. She’s yet to get anything wrong.
and jane, i am glad that you are posting about the legitimacy of bloggers again……i was in on the internet in its infancy, back when the only people with email were with nasa or nerds (i was one of the first people in my area with an email address)……then i went without a computer for about 10 years…..i was again new to the internet in october of last year…..blogging was new to me…….i avoided them, except for blogs by my friends’ children(adults)……
then i started exploring a bit…….and i found the lake……been here ever since……it is reliable, astute, diligent, intelligent and trustworthy………i wouldn’t waste my time if it weren’t all of these things………
keep stating what you know to be true, but don’t let it get under your skin, changes are happening, i can see that from my perspective on what the net started out to be, what i thought it was last october, and what i know it to be now………and i spend most of my net time being informed right here at the lake……..and i am a news junkie, so it took a lot to draw me in…….
i wish i could donate more to the site in the way of moolah though, this month’s extra cash, which i don’t have a lot of, went to blue america, figured you wouldn’t mind…….
next month will be back to ((((fdl))))
I don’t know who coined the term “Newsreaders,” for the pretty people who read the teleprompt on nightly news programs, but I love it as a descriptive phrase. Even better if the news part is in sardonic quotes. Considering the sheer volume of attacks against the blogosphere lately, which has reached critical mass since the Democratic candidates appeared at YKos gathering, I’d say the powers that be, aka the corporate overlords have figured out that our David is connecting with a few stones against their carefully constructed Goliath. You don’t have to be a right-wing fundi left-behind nutbar to know how that biblical contest turned out. Somebody is running scared, which is why they are lashing out at us. Thanks for continuing to call them on their lies and hypocrisy.
The Globe’s arrogance is applied equally to all parts of the political spectrum. Blogging from the political right, I find it equally unappealing.
puppethead @ 20
That was funny. I think bloggers should keep in mind the George M. Cohan quote, “I don’t care what you say about me, as long as you say something about me, and as long as you spell my name right.” Newspapers ought to be scared though. They’ve lost classifieds to the internet and are going to lose their news audience if they don’t start taking the business a lot more seriously. If they think they can keep peoples trust and, at the same time, allow themselves to be used as tools by various interests, they’re going to be left with nothing but their home-and-garden an sports sections.
iHeartFoulMouthedFemBloggers @ 134
see my comment #65 above:
i’m 56 (or 57?)
i like your blog.
(OffT: my daily has a music article for you:
Jimmy Reed Highway
mc @ 151
That’s because they think she’ll crash and burn. I think, tactically, the better way to do it is to begin by removing Abu.. something for which they may, if they push, have the votes to do and may be able to get done quickly. If that succeeds, and the centrists in the party see it succeed, there should be more support/confidence for going after dick-wags-shrub with seriousness.
Meanwhile, OT, but the fundies unite for no good…
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/…..index.html
waccamaw at 153 says-”Thanks for the linky. And here’s an especially nice snip:
One more thing: Good writing remains good writing regardless of platform. The Web tends to be a chattier place, more off-the-cuff, but it is still a place where readers appreciate a well-crafted sentence, a nuanced thought, a fully elucidated thesis and commentary undergirded by fact, honesty and a generosity of spirit.
And the readers who don’t like that stuff? A buncha jerks.
Perfect description of the Lake.”
yes, i thought so, too…i really liked what he wrote, started out as soft writing, but he said a lot in it….i often wonder if he reads here, because his blog is where i got the link from in the first place……..his blog is a wonderful bunch of people…….haven’t been there in a while, but will always have a fond place in my heart.
i really like joel achenbach. and froomkin, been reading them both since i was back online back in october………
yellowdog jim @ 159
Way cool. Thank you!
BobbyG
Sort of on topic..Isn’t this interesting…
SECAUCUS, N.J., August 20, 2007 – MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann will bring his unique take on the day’s events, from politics to pop culture, to a primetime network audience this Sunday night. A special edition of “Countdown with Keith Olbermann” will air on Sunday, August 26th at 7 p.m. ET/6 p.m. CT on NBC, leading into the network’s “Sunday Night Football” pre-season NFL matchup between the Philadelphia Eagles and the Pittsburgh Steelers, live at 8 p.m. ET. Olbermann is joining the network’s “Football Night in America” studio team this season. The special edition of “Countdown” will be broadcast live from MSNBC’s studios.
http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/n….._65388.asp
If they decided to have Countdown before every Sunday Nite football…the wing-nuts’ heads will explode..it just might push O’Reilly into complete insanity.
who is skube?
oh, i found it.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 79
I used to give 5 points to students in my English classes who brought in published grammatical errors. Not too hard to find examples, unfortunately.
waccamaw-my161 i said-” because his blog is where i got the link from in the first place”
MEANT to say, because his blog is where i got the link TO FIREDOGLAKE in the first place……..
steve ar at 163
that is incredible!!!!!!!! people will watch anything leading up to a football game!!!!!!!! even if they don’t agree with it, and it will rub off when they realize it’s the truth! hurrah!
Y’all know there’s a new post, right?
OT – Froomkin’s up with more on Rove. In particular, his high-visiblity trashing of Hillary Clinton, and the “please-don’t-throw-me-in-the-briar-patch” quality of it.
In this regard, I noticed the other day he was praising the acumen of one Rahm Emanuel . . .
Oklahoma,
My daughter was an honors student. She loved teachers like you. Too many of her teachers, even ones who taught her IB or AP classes became angry when their students caught mistakes or errors. I could never figure out why they chose to teach gifted students and take the chance that one or several of those students would catch them making mistakes if they couldn’t handle it. It seemed to me that a good percentage of her teachers really resented bright students capable of critical thinking and some actively punished it.
oregondave @ 170
He. That’s a new tactic for Turdblossom… see how many Dems you can hit with spitwads from the peanut gallery. Praise away Karl. We’ll even give him a l ist of people to praise… beginning with Lieberling. Please Karl, tell us how good of a job he’s been doing.
iHeartFoulMouthedFemBloggers @ 162
pleasure’s mine.
as long as we are giving our newspapers a hard time;
once in a while there’s gold in them thar dead trees.
The Globe has a great Sports page though. Go Pats. As far as journalism, in reporting on the Padilla conviction, to give some background, the Globe stated, “Padilla’s attorneys claimed he was tortured, but the government denied it.” So hard edged . . .
Other Pat @ 166
My Father used to do this with us (me and my brothers)– give us his version of “history”, bending it out of shape until we squealed, “No, Daddy!”– or however it was that we expressed our grasp of the absurd. That was mostly on vacation car trips, however, when we were not in a position to check facts. At the dinner table, he’d just challenge us to “Look it up” in the dictionary or encyclopedia. When they moved out of the house I grew up in, they tried to get one of us to take the old set of encyclopedias that we’d grown up on, but by then, those volumes had only sentimental value. My Father really set the tone for our family about “getting our facts straight.”
Bob in HI
Sorry, here’s the link.
bobschacht @ 175
Aunt Betsy says “Show me how you know that is true.”
sunshine at 176
link didn’t work………
jane, jane, jane.
don’t you know that if it isn’t on wood pulp it can’t be accurate? and vice versa?
OK kiddo @ 48,
I love that idea! What lucky kids to have you for a teacher.
dmac @ 178
http://216.109.125.130/search/…..F-8&p=“Oath to the President” -sara&fr=ush-news&u=www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=704&w=”oath to the president”&d=Gzzkd-ljPR_w&icp=1&.intl=us
Maybe you should tell Ellen Goodman to get in touch with Senator Collins. Clearly, even Senator Collins knows that the blogosphere isn’t 100% male.
dmac @ 178
Try this link. http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=704
If it doesn’t work put these 3 lines all together in a search engine to get it.
“oath to president” -sara unconfirmed sources
sunshine @ 183
my girls!
i love my bloggergals!
jane, christy, marcy, jerralyn, arianna
and cookiejill.
not to mention danispies, my head chef with tonight’s chef d’oeuvre!
i am sous-sous chef sur les pointes!
http://www.danispies.com/
What about Digby? You don’t love Digby?
I guess everybody’s gone home.
I stopped reading Goodman years ago. She’s a hit n’ run sniper. Makes broad generalizations about groups of people, no nuance. I didn’t like all the snipes at childless women, but in all fairness she has a lot of targets. Thank goddess I don’t pick up many newspapers anymore and see her columns. It was always tempting to go over to her tantrum-in-writing because she’s one of the very few female columnists out there. I usually finished the article disappointed, because I couldn’t talk some sense back to her.
That article you linked to spent most of the those precious words analyzing the reason for a conclusion she didn’t really establish to anyone’s satisfaction. How to establish what constitutes a male or female political blogosphere? Isn’t Arianna the most read? Wouldn’t Firedoglake be the most linked? Digby, while she doesn’t have the high traffic, is THE liberal bloggers blogger, and she’s probably the most influential.
Shakira ROCKS!
This Skube sounds a little creepy, hanging around all these teenage girl blogs. I suggest he turn his gaze on a more mature target, like Shakira.
By the way, blog and blogger went through my spell checker.
jawbone @ 186
i loved her when she was a guy.
tee hee.
And that, Scarlet, is why you are among my heroes.
for real.
scarlet p. @ 11
Actually, that is why you are one of my heroes. Still for real.
So Ellen doesn’t have room to name names, but Skube says his editors add names without telling him. And Judith Miller apparently didn’t have editors, or certainly they would have seen that she was just making stuff up…it makes my head ache.
Shortly after one of my first times as a panelist on my local public radio station’s weekly political roundtable, I emailed an MSM editorial writer with whom I’d been on the panel because, in an editorial she’d written, she’d made assertions about statistics, but didn’t provide a single citation. She just wrote, “studies say that…” then, nothing.
Now, this writer has what people would agree, more or less, are good credentials – Ivy League, years of experience and, from what I could tell, a deep knowledge base.
But in that editorial? Nada.
And, exactly as you write, Jane, when bloggers talk numbers, I know I feel a compulsion to provide a link (partly because when I’m the reader, I want the link too – so I can, you know – check it out for myself??).
So, I emailed this editorial board person and said, hey, those statistics, those reports. What were they? Can you send me the link? And hey, is that normal practice – to just say, “the studies say…” because, you know, I could never get away with that.
And you know what she wrote back? No room. She didn’t want to use up her word count.
I just rolled my eyes and sighed and thought, you know, if that’s what they’re going to allow themselves to say is okay? They deserve to go the way of the dinosaurs, because blogs are providing a superior product, period.
Say, I’s got a buncha boys that can come around if yer facts don get checked, unnerstand?
I personally don’t give a damn about the gender of people in the blogosphere or the MSM.
In fact, when reading the New York Times (up until around the time Bush attacked Iraq in March 2003, I used to not even note the name of the journalist whose byline was above a front-page article.
And then I noticed how slanted and propagandist certain of these NY Times’ pre-war front-page stories were, at which time I glanced up and saw the name Judith Miller. In my view, the byline could have just as easily been of a male NY Times reporter.
Facts are facts. Truth is true. There is no gender involved where facts and truth are concerned.
Today, when I surf the internet or peruse a MSM publication, I look only for the facts and hope that truth will be revealed…which is one reason I check out Firedoglake each day.
Consistently, Firedoglake presents the facts, in service to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Thank you.
Firedoglake is my favorite blog, and its comments section is my favorite comments section. I learn so much that is important every day from FDL itself and from your readers. I have always been fond of Ellen Goodman, whose columns I first began to read about 40 years ago in the Boston Globe. I’m disappointed in her sloppiness and her cavalier response to Jane’s questions. I intend to let her know that.
Thanks to all of you who are thinking and writing and reading and enriching our lives with your contributions to FDL.
As if! If she weren’t such a bloody cow, I’d say she was a wanker.