James Risen and Eric Lichtblau, the New York Times reporters who originally broke the warrantless domestic spying story, report further on the recent legislation gutting the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Their report on two recent meetings between Bush Administration/Department of Justice lawyers, concerned members of Congress and others opposed to the FISA gutting have confirmed that the statute the Administration stampeded Congress into passing goes well beyond the so-called intelligence “gap” reportedly created by the FISA Court when it declared that foreign-to-foreign communications routed through the US could not be monitored except under FISA’s warrant requirements.
Broad new surveillance powers approved by Congress this month could allow the Bush administration to conduct spy operations that go well beyond wiretapping to include — without court approval — certain types of physical searches on American soil and the collection of Americans’ business records, Democratic Congressional officials and other experts said. . . .
The dispute illustrates how lawmakers, in a frenetic, end-of-session scramble, passed legislation they may not have fully understood and may have given the administration more surveillance powers than it sought.
It also offers a case study in how changing a few words in a complex piece of legislation has the potential to fundamentally alter the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, a landmark national security law. . . .
Several legal experts said that by redefining the meaning of “electronic surveillance,” the new law narrows the types of communications covered in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, known as FISA, by indirectly giving the government the power to use intelligence collection methods far beyond wiretapping that previously required court approval if conducted inside the United States.
These new powers include the collection of business records, physical searches and so-called “trap and trace” operations, analyzing specific calling patterns.
I don’t know which claim is less credible: Is it the Administration’s argument, which Risen/Lichtblau report without comment, that they never intended such an overly broad gutting of FISA and do not intend to interpret the new statute that way, even though we know the DNI McConnell reportedly agreed to a narrower statute worked out with Congressional Democrats, only to have that version replaced by a much broader bill written by the White House? Or is it the Democrats claiming they are surprised that the Administration so badly misled them? How many examples of total duplicity does it take before the Democrats learn they cannot trust this Administration on any matter and should never cave to any Administration threat, especially when Constitutional rights are directly at stake?
The facts reported by Risen/Lichtblau are appalling on several levels. Above all, they confirm that even ignoring the leadership failures to coordinate their strategies in the final days before passage, Congressional Democrats were recklessly irresponsible in hastily passing a bill they failed to read and understand and still cannot explain to the public. They passed it even though they knew that the bill’s subject matter involved critical issues of Constitutional rights, individual and business privacy, and problematic domestic spying by the NSA, an organization that was never meant to spy on American citizens.
The Democrats also knew the Administration’s history in willfully violating the warrant requirements of FISA, and they knew the Administration has yet to explain what it is doing and how it can be legally justified. They knew the Administration had engaged in activities that were so blatantly unlawful that the previous Attorney General, the acting Attorney General and the Director of the FBI were prepared to resign if the activities continued. Yet knowing all this, they passed a bill written entirely by the Administration and never vetted through hearings that gutted FISA, a 28 year old statute that had been carefully crafted and updated after extensive public hearings. They recklessly gutted a statute designed to protect our rights against government abuses that had occurred during the Nixon and prior administrations, abuses that, given the Bush/Cheney regime’s history and statements, the Democrats knew were probably at risk here.
Second, the article confirms the suspicions that the Administration knowingly misled Congress, claiming a limited FISA amendment was necessary to correct the foreign-to-foreign intelligence gap when in fact they knew that the bill language they drafted went far beyond that limited fix. The Administration denies it would ever interpret the statute in ways that pushed an extreme view of executive power; are we to believe this from an administration that has never held back on pushing extreme views of executive powers?
Third, the article reveals that in the Administration’s view, there never was a foreign-to-foreign intelligence gap at all. The Bush attorneys told meeting attendees they believed that the President had inherent Constitutional Authority to gather foreign-to-foreign intelligence without complying with either the new statute or FISA’s warrant requirements. This means that if Congress had done nothing to change FISA provisions that arguably limit foreign to foreign surveillance, the Administration believed it could have continued warrantless surveillance of foreign-to-foreign communications, just as it had been doing all along without Congressional objection. (There is a separate question whether statutes other than FISA restricted the executive’s authority to conduct strictly foreign communications, but even it that is true, it would not require that FISA be gutted.)
To be sure, the FISA Court had reportedly held that foreign-to-foreign communications that are routed through the US fell under the FISA definition of “electronic surveillance” that triggers FISA’s warrant requirements. But it can be argued that this result was a consequence of technological changes that Congress never considered or intended. FISA was designed to deal with “electronic surveillance” of communications in which at least one party was lawfully in the US — the protections were meant for persons in the US, not persons outside the US. If Congress never intended exclusively foreign-to-foreign communications to be the types of “electronic surveillance” Congress intended to regulate through FISA, that fact would seem to affect the arguments about the President’s inherent Article II powers.
So I’d like to see more legal discussion of this issue. The argument would be that under Youngstown, where Congress intended to regulate in an area and did so, such as by stating expressly that FISA’s warrant provisions are the exclusive method when dealing with electronic surveillance of communications involving persons within the US, the argument for inherent Presidential power to do otherwise — without a FISA warrant — is very weak. But where there is no clear indication that Congress intended that result to apply to foreign-to-foreign communications, the arguments for inherent Presidential powers is much stronger, because there is no clear Congressional intent to limit the President’s authority.
To be sure, given the ambiguity, a limited FISA carve-out for such foreign-to-foreign communications would have been appropriate — not that the Administration would have accepted such a limited fix; it rejected that during the discussions with Congress. That limited fix would have provided clarity and avoided dispute and legal risks. But it is simply not true that the Administration believed intelligence gathering of strictly foreign communications could not occur. The Administration’s argument that we were confronted with a dangerous gap in our ability to conduct foreign intelligence, an argument leaked to the media by the Administration and Republican Congressmen and which was used to stampede Congress into enacting another unconstitutional law, gutting long-time and carefully thought out protections for individual rights, was simply a lie. How many times will Congressional Democrats allow themselves to be stampeded by an Administration that simply cannot be trusted to deal in good faith on anything that matters?
If this analysis is correct, it may be that the best course of action in fixing this mess is to do nothing; let the awful statute expire, rather than engage an untrustworthy Administration in negotiations that could extend the worst provisions further. The Democrats could attempt to pass a “clean,” limited fix and nothing more, but there seems little hope that the White House or their Congressional supporters would agree to pass it. The Democrats should have the good sense to say, “fine; we tried, but you’re asking that we do something that violates the Constitution and we won’t even consider that. Let the law expire.”
Until then, we have a another unconscionable mess to clean up when the lawless Bush/Cheney/Gonzales regime is finally removed from office. Don’t count on it happening before then, because nothing truly important to the public welfare that requires the regime to stop its lawlessness and lying is likely to occur as long as this dishonest gang remains in office.
For other useful background and perspectives, start with emptywheel here and the links at The Next Hurrah, Anonymous Liberal here, as well as Marty Lederman here and here, and Glenn Greenwald here.
Related posts:
- FISA v AUMF: Bush Wiretap Program Based on Lies
- BREAKING: Stunning al-Haramain Filing Shames Obama; Shows Duplicity of Officials
- Holder Refuses to Stand by Statements Saying Violating FISA Breaks the Law
- House Judiciary Committee to Propose PATRIOT and FISA Reforms
- Can Skittles help fix the PATRIOT Act and FISA?





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Scarecrow! caw caw!
Scarecrow!
Good morning Scarecrow!
Morning S’crow
Uh, Scarecrow, in the title, wouldn’t that be “duplicity?”
I’m trying not to think too much about it, it fills me with despair. We are becoming East Germany day by day…
Congress will yet again allow themselves to be bullied into extending (and worsening) it.
Wanna bet?
montag @ 5
Probably. Dublicity means twice the lying.
But I’ll fix.
No, that’s a sucker bet.
I am hoping the Democrats are getting an earful about their rush to adjourn. As I recall Risen came out with an article a full week before the duplicitous deed.They cannot plead ignorance.
per Greenwald’s article (last “here” in post),
sure wish Dodd were climbing higher in the polls.
Seems like he would actually do something to
restore integrity to due process and behave
as a leader entrusted with the Constitution
should behave.
Does anyone else sense Dodd’s brand of genuine commitment
out of the other candidates?
What I find genuinely curious is that, in the case of strictly foreign intelligence, the standards for obtaining a warrant are much lower than for domestic criminal warrants (and this would seem to be borne out by overwhelming tendency of the FISA court to approve government warrants in the last thirty years).
So, why, ultimately, does it matter that foreign communications are routed through a U.S. switch, when the warrant process enables taps?
What the hell was Congress thinking in the first place? FISA is pretty much wide open in this regard, and the time limits to apply for warrants after the fact has been extended in other legislation, as I recall.
It seems quite clear that the administration has been determined to do away with the FISA warrant process entirely, and that means, quite simply, they are up to no good at all. Given all the extra storage and retrieval capacity that NSA has been adding over the last couple of years, it seems obvious that what they really want to do is just snag everything in the pipes and sort it out later.
Yo Congress: would you please READ this stuff before you vote on it? Especially when you are ripping up the Constitution? Thank you.
George Bush is a voyeur.
With Rove almost gone to do dirty GOP election missions, which means Cheney is taking over the reigns of gov’t completely, wonder how long before we’re in Iran. Up to our neck. Iran is coming. Make no mistake.
Congress will cave – again – because they haven’t figured out yet, in spite of everything (including being told what will happen if they cave) that standing up to Bushco will help them at the next election as well as in those polls they’re so fond of citing.
I’d like to see a gigantic political demonstration at every federal office building in the country, all on the same day, preferably at the same time, with people making noise (clapping in unison, stamping feet in unison, pounding pitchforks and torches on the ground in unison). Just to make them see how many people are against the way things are being run. (If it takes people there with boomboxes playing ‘We Will Rock You’, then get people to do it. It’s the noise level and the feeling of unity.)
montag @ 12
The Administration was hardly crippled, even under FISA. Note that we have never been given a satisfactory answer to the question, “why can’t you comply with the warrant requirements (and its delay variations) already in FISA.”
But I’m making a different argument, though I’m not a practicing attorney and certainly not a Constitutional lawyer. Some very smart person may explain why this argument is all wet.
OKK –yep
AP – American forces are tracking about 50 members of an elite Iranian force who have crossed the border into southern Iraq to train Shiite militia fighters, a top U.S. general said Sunday. The French foreign minister, meanwhile, arrived in Baghdad on a groundbreaking visit after years of icy relations with the United States over Iraq.
I can only accept the “I didn’t know it was thaaat bad” so many times. It was the Dem’s responsibilty to know what they voted for, the R’s I’ve completely given up on, if Bush asks, they just cave. I have no doubt the R’s would vote to make Congress honorary only (as long as they could keep some perks and pork).
off topic, jackaroyd and christy, here’s a pic I took of a green footed booby and it’s chick a few years ago… Green foot
AnnieW @ 20
I don’t regard discussions of green-footed boobies as OT.
AZ Matt @ 14
He best loves to watch torture snuff vids with Rove… Until recently that is, Rove is gone.
Scarecrow @ 18
I guess I’m belaboring the obvious again–perhaps my argument predates even the initial Patriot Act. What’s been going on for six years, at least, with regard to intelligence law has nothing to do with the logistical and bureaucratic errors leading to 9/11, and yet, yelling, “booga booga!” works like a charm, every time. *sigh*
Shorter Bush administration: All your data belongs to us.
If the Dems were smart, they won’t commit any vital campaign strategies to e-mail. What we’re looking at here is a virtual watergate break in.
How many examples of these “mistakes” does it take for people to realize that the Democrats are just as complicit in bringing about the tragic situation this country is in as the Cheney Admin?
And that their leading Presidential candidates, if elected, most likely would not end the war, restore habeas corpus, and roll back the abrogation of the Constitution?
I thought the cleanup was supposed to begin when the (D)’s retook control of Congress?
If you ponder just the hypothetical that the (D) Party is actually working in concert with the neo-con (R) Party to consolidate a corporatist, authoritarian State in the husk of the American Constitutional Republic, does this provide a working explanatory framework for all these ‘mistakes’, missed opportunities, and procedural kabuki?
Oh, and by the way, it would only take 41 Senators to end the war with a courageous filibuster.
And it would only take a simple majority to pass a Resolution of Impeachment in the House.
Let them stand up and be counted, or be considered complicit.
This legislation needs to be trashed- no one in congress covered themselves with glory in this botched 11th hour bill. The only good news is that it has a sunset provision- so it requires affirmative action by both the congress and the white house to keep it going.
Dems can threaten to let the thing die if clusterfuck doesn’t go along with something sane.
Just what is needed- another bullshit theoretical conversation! Come on folks- wake the hell up. What does the chimp have to say to make it clear- HE WILL DO WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO AND ANYONE THAT WANTS TYO CHALLENGE HIM CAN GO SCREW THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!
That is all and you all can talk till you turn blue!
That is why he has to be impeached now. Not later, not tomorrow , not next week but right now. Reid should call congress back and initiate actions need to Impeach this lying son of a bitch.
I saw the thread from the night they passed this.
If all of you knew that this bill was dangerous and you knew it had stuff in it that wasn’t necessary, why didn’t congress know?
rwcole @ 26
Nah, they can threaten all they like. Then we’ll have another unspecified terrorist threat against Congress and they’ll cave again.
SnarKassandra @ 29
They probably did know, Cassie. What’s going on now is some rather inelegant and obvious ass-covering.
DiFi’s was the worst.
I need to be clear on this. Are we saying that the ‘greatest’ nation on earth, chock full of rugged individualist, Republicans, and conservatives, and fanatically protective of their privacy is worried about a silly little thing like FISA?
AZ Matt @ 15
let’s think it through, shall we?
With the limitless types technology (to wit, the slip the other day about wireless wiretapping surveillance — was that a reference to this?)
and
that the EQ of those with access to use it is apparently far outstripped
by the IQ of the technology, (what BoR?)…
sometimes it seems that the endgame cannot be something along the lines of
satellites down or off — ain’t gonna happen
instead, we’re all gonna have to get real comfy with
Teh Nekkid — ultimate transparency.
in the meantime, it’s a hoot to think that someone would find
my conversations with my cats anything resembling national interest.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 33
Umm, I don’t think Republicans’ privacy is in jeopardy here….
thanks scarecrow. great post.
they do know this. it’s just that the number of dems in congress that act like they care, is very, very small. (see jeralyn’s important post on this). she tells the story of another last minute push to undermine our rights just before the august recess, this time by a democratic president aided by democratic congressmembers. that time the conservative republicans were successful in pushing back.
i hope everyone will read jeralyn’s reminder of what happened in 1996. her conclusion:
Scarecrow –
What connection, if any, do you see in the timing of the FISA stampede and Karl Rove’s impending departure from the White House?
Want to pick on someone? Pick on Reid for allowing Lieberman to pluck the fruits (caucus, etc.) of the Democratic vine. And of course there are some very bad Dems out there.
Lieberman, appearing on CBS’s Face the Nation, said, “I think we’ve got to be prepared to take aggressive military action against the Iranians to stop them from killing Americans in Iraq. And to me that would include a strike over the border into Iran, where we have good evidence that they have a base at which they are training these people coming back into Iraq to kill our soldiers.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..60705.html
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 36
See how much y’all are teaching me about how to ask good questions!
Once a technology exists that provides useful information to the govt.- the odds are that it will be used. It would require an organization with 100 times the strength of the ACLU to stop it. The ingredients of a police state are already available. We will have one soon.
Records of fingerprints
Cameras in public places
Satelites
Govt. access to all forms of electronic communication and financial records.
The govt. trusts itself to do the right thing.
In just over a year we will probably have a dem in the White House- goopers should consider that.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 36
I don’t see one. Marcy probably had the best speculation on timing/reasons — he may be one or two steps ahead of two or three different investigations.
I agree with perris that the question of *business* privacy might interest a lot of mainstream Republicans.
The government has all their business data and communications and is prepared to sell to the highest bidder. Ok, strictly speaking not the government, but only because they put it out to contractors.
Does anyone listen to Lieberman who doesn’t ALREADY agree with him? Not exactly an opinion changer in my opinion.
rwcole @ 39
What leads you to believe that this isn’t already a full-fledged police state? I’m asking this sincerely – not from a point of reference of sarcasm.
montag @ 12
I did some research into this at the time when NYT first exposed it, and it’s even worse than an “overwhelming tendency.” Before GWB’s illegal program began (or at least, when it began to the best of the public’s knowledge), the FISA Court had approved every single warrant request made of it since its inception. There were two (I believe that’s the right number, iirc) that were initially rejected, but approved upon revision.
How badly did this administration’s shit have to stink for the FISA Court–which had been rubberstamping requests for almost 30 years beforehand, ultimately giving the green light to every single one–to start rejecting them?
Scarecrow @ 17
Classified.
N
I don’t yet see people who disagree with the administration disappearing in the middle of the night never to be seen again. If this were a full blown police state- it would be happening.
One aspect of this law and the implications of the law being over looked is that of plain old fashioned industrial espionage. The administration is now empowered to alert cronies of the adminstration insiders to what their competition is doing, when, and how. Of course we know they wouldn’t ever do that either. Now excuse me while I stand up and let the monkees fly out of my ass.
rwcole @ 46
Unless they are in Iraq or any muslim nation and they disagree. Then they are enemy combatants.
If the police state comes, it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a bible.
The FISA “thing” is just another “shiny object”. We need to focus on getting these criminals out of office. From TPM:
But just as striking as the sloppy lawmaking was the administration’s response.
…Bush administration officials have already signaled that, in their view, the president retains his constitutional authority to do whatever it takes to protect the country, regardless of any action Congress takes. At a tense meeting last week with lawyers from a range of private groups active in the wiretapping issue, senior Justice Department officials refused to commit the administration to adhering to the limits laid out in the new legislation and left open the possibility that the president could once again use what they have said in other instances is his constitutional authority to act outside the regulations set by Congress.
That’s the important thing to remember: the White House considers the legislation “just advisory,” so it doesn’t much matter whether or not lawmakers gave up too much authority to the president. He’s going to do what he wants to do.
–Steve Benen
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/024639.php
rwcole @ 49
We have a book about that!
rwcole @ 46
Maybe they have disappeared in plain sight – like a Congress that approves anti-Constitutional legislation without any apparent reason for doing so….
We’ve had the age of reason, the age of enlightenment and so on. But this has got to be the age of hypocrisy. Thinking about Rudy the G and the GOP family values thingy here.
And while I’m on Rudy’s case (and secrecy), I think I’d like to know a lot more about Giuliani’s super-secret business dealings. Calling for Bernie here.
Helpless Dancer @ 24
If the Dems were smart they’d begin making a BIG STINK claiming that this is being used to spy on THEM.
That the voters will understand.
The police state will protect us from the enemies of the flag and the bible- dirty moslem hippies.
Apparently Harry Reid listens to Joe Lieberman.
Most americans could care less about interception of messages from outside the country…They’ve never BEEN outside the country- let alone called there. It’s damned hard to get the general public to take this one seriously. For that reason, we’ll probably lose.
SnarKassandra @ 29
and add in selise at 35
then try my new framework for a fit … they knew it would be bad, but not how bad, and they didn’t care.
This whole “they were afraid the meanies would call them soft on Terra” figleaf is less and less functional, with the Dear Leader at under 30% approval rating, and rampant electoral gains looking un-fuck-up-able for 08.
But we know the Cheneyites are, shall we say, very strongly motivated to retain their hold on power, and are acting rather blase about their dismal poll numbers, at least in the Presidential race…
perhaps the (D) hare should not be relaxing and coasting into 08 on the momentum of having passed a minimum wage bill and having initiated some investigations that are predictably stonewalled?
perhaps impeachment proceedings are the only way they will get to grasp the levers of executive branch power? could they be motivated by that?
rwcole @ 26
The bill may expire, but as I understand it the targets of the surveillance brought in under this iteration of the the bill will not expire.
Anyone have anything on this?
Gotta say it. The planet needs Gore. This nation needs Gore. Gore in ‘08.
Steve Pordon @ 45
As I recall, there were four turned down, and two of those were eventually approved later, out of something like 24,000.
Quibble with the words, but I thought “overwhelming tendency” pretty well covered it. :)
It’s not an idle question, though, about why warrants are so onerous to this administration. The implementation of national security letters is a subset of this phenomenon, and the volume of those has been truly extraordinary. That suggests that the breadth of their indifference is extraordinary, as well.
M’self, I think we’re probably not going to find out the details of all this until long after I’m dead, but those details will show that this administration’s fanatical determination to keep Republicans in power forever also extended to using the intelligence services for domestic political purposes. The one thing these guys really learned from Nixon, Watergate and FISA is, “don’t get caught.”
SnarKassandra @ 28
in many cases it may just be that the leadership didn’t give them time to read it (or have their staff study it). for example, on friday afternoon (aug 3) the house leadership brought up h.res.600 (the rule to allow voting on a fisa bill – but not specifiying which one) for a vote before they could even tell the congress which bill it would be (or what would be in it). it was such a fracked up process, those of us who were watching it were shocked and outraged.
bottom line though – at least the leadership knew (and the people on the intelligence committees). from them, the “we didn’t know” is an attempt to disown responsibility…. sorta like when alberto gonzoles doesn’t “remember”.
GW Clusterfuck has been rollin hisself up a giant power snowball. If a dem moves into the White House- the snowball will be there for em to use.
montag @ 34
I do, when things happen like the GOP controlled Senate Judiciary marching in lock-step with war lies… It happens for a reason: Carrot and Stick, Rove style with Hoover era (plus 25) intel resources.
I don’t think that people here understand the careful consideration that our extremely legitimate chief executive is giving to operating within Constitutional limits.
You see, Bush is operating under the precisely crafted Theory Of We Get To Do Whatever The Fuck We Want, and so he’s doing whatever the fuck he wants. Simple, when looked at in the right way.
A few questions about the act:
1. Is “physical search” as contemplated in the law a term of art? What does it mean? Luggage? DNA? Body cavities?
2. Is the act’s sunset provision really for only six months, or can it be extended to a year?
3. And a more meta question: I’ve always understood that Reid was a master of the legislative art and the arcana of Senate procedure. How on earth did he come to pass a Republican bill?
Finally, I think the post missed the quote of the day from an unnamed administration official: “The intent here was pure.”
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!
sangemon @ 59
Marcy has said that one of the provisions allows Gonzales to authorize surveillance for up to a year. It this is correct, arguably some surveillance could start the day before the statute expires, and continue after that for some time, under the expired bill’s authority.
Scarecrow @ 8:58 am -
I agree with your comment and suspect that he will be embroiled in more than three investigations after Congress returns from its August recess.
SnarKassandra @ 28
sort of reminds me of the debate going on now about WMD. Dems trusted and believed the Busher and lots of us outside didnt.
N=1 @ 52
hundreds of muslim immigrants were disappeared right after 911. i think (hope?) most of them were seen again – even if they were deporting illegally and to the wrong country.
so the US can surveil, wiretap – whatever -anyone who isnt a US citizen in the US without a warrant. And UK can do the same to US citizens in the US…then MI6 MI5 – whatever – shares with CIA, RNC–no more privacy any way any how.
lambert strether @ 65
Several quotes in the article could use a point by point rebuttal. It’s written from the point of view that everyone was working in good faith, so gosh, we didn’t mean for this to happen, and we’d never exploit it.
Attention Democratic party:
I’m watching. I watched as you caved on the war votes, helped to pass the MCA, and with the FISA vote. I also heard you when you said that you don’t have to worry about losing the progressive vote because we “have nowhere else to go”.
Well, screw you. If you want my vote and support, I need to see two things. A serious push to repeal the MCA, and to let this FISA expansion expire. If those don’t happen, then I’ll damn well find somewhere else to go, because to continue to support you is no different than supporting the Republican party.
As it stands now, it’s hard to escape the notion that you’re playing us all for fools.
(Yes, there is a difference between the parties — but not enough of one. The problem, as I see it, is nonpartisan: both parties are being run by people who are corporatist and couldn’t care less about the US, its citizens, or the Constitution, so long as their rich benefactors keep raking in the bucks.)
Yes, I’m furious at you, Democratic party. That I’m even angrier at the Republicans doesn’t help you one little bit.
peterboy @ 70
There is no limit even if you are a citizen; I think the AG and DNI have to determine it’s reasonable to believe that the conversation you’re in is related to foreign intelligence. Citizens can be part of the conversation, as long as one party who is the “target” is reasonably believed to be oversees — and it may be you.
Scarecrow -
Have you read Marcy’s most current TNH post? Why Rove Resigned?
Steve-AR @ 50
i think the FISA “thing” is very important, because it gives us a reality check on where our dems in congress are – and it’s ain’t pretty…. but we needed to know this.
If we had kept up the work that President Carter started (Camp David) in solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, then perhaps we would not have found ourselves in the Middle East mess (of our own creating). Who knows? Perhaps there would have never been a ‘9-11′ if peace between the Palestinians and Israelis had become a reality. I don’t have a lot of faith in my party’s front runners to solve this situatuion.
If the GOP captures the WH again in 2008, it won’t be Republicans who put them there. It will be ‘Democrats’ and ‘Independents’ who do.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 74
I have now. I wish the woman would slow down — you know, only one scandal a week or something.
Seepeesate @ 72
ding ding, da ding ding!
But what if we nominate a neo-con in (D) clothing who says that first-strike use of nuclear bombs against a country that doesn’t threaten the USA is an option that is always “on the table”?
would that help?
montag @ 61
Not to be pedantic about it, but I believe there is a strong (small though it may be) difference between “most” applications and “all” applications when discussing this with people. In 1997, FISC denied one application and asked the government to revise it, but the government withdrew the request voluntarily because it was moot by then. In 2002, two requests are listed “approved as modified” (presumably denied the first time around). In 2003 they rejected 4 requests outright, which were not modified by the administration, probably because the administration had their illegal surveillance framework in place by then. The annual reports can be read here: http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/#rept
Again, I’m not trying to be an ass about it. I believe there’s a small but very important distinction to be made, and the fact that FISC approved every single request thrown at them for 25 years until GWB came along is striking.
The government, the Republicans, the Democrats, and who knows who else, are watching everything that gets posted on any and all blogs.
sporkovat @ 58 –
i don’t think any other explanation works – they just didn’t care.
but the party isn’t a monolith – i do think we have evidence that there are people who did care (feingold and whitehouse, for example)… but, they were undermined by their leadership.
if we can find a way to make them care (not about our rights – about the consequences of undermining our rights)… then we can expect better behavior. that’s one reason i’m very grateful to christy for her “they work for us” campaign.
This morning on NPR, I heard a clip from Hillary calling the Republicans a bunch of Yo-Yos. She said their leadership has basically been that the American People are on their own.
YOYO= You’re on your own
I was in a meeting with Sen Dodd that weekend and he made it clear – very clear – that the bill was no surprise and was extensively discussed and caucused … the claims they did not know what they were passing are false.
Sangemon – the bill allows them to extend warrantless wiretapping of targets for one year after initiated … so Gonzales can start whatever he wants at the end of the six months – and it will continue for a year.
The problem is; is that my party, the Demo’s think there is no place for me to run. It’s either going to be HRC or Obama, or the GOP. And they could be right. And I resent it profoundly.
Well, I just watched Kit Bond (E. Liar Maximus-Missouri) tell Leslie that he personally wrote the FISA Bill and everybody who said it gave the Administration expanded powers to spy on Americans was just flat wrong. He suggested that we needed to read the Bill so we knew what we were talking about.
EPU’d from last thread–cite to article about troops’ eye view in Iraq:
One quote that caught my eye:
A few nights ago, for example, we witnessed the death of one American soldier and the critical wounding of two others when a lethal armor-piercing explosive was detonated between an Iraqi Army checkpoint and a police one. Local Iraqis readily testified to American investigators that Iraqi police and Army officers escorted the triggermen and helped plant the bomb. These civilians highlighted their own predicament: had they informed the Americans of the bomb before the incident, the Iraqi Army, the police or the local Shiite militia would have killed their families.
Iraq is not going to be a whole and stable country during Bush’s term, or maybe ever.
Bush has not provided an honest definition of what the military mission is…and likely he cannot…and in the absence of defining a mission, every statement of success, or exhortation to “victory” is an utter lie.
Siun @ 84
wow. that’s even worse than what i had inferred from the evidence – that it couldn’t have been a surprise to anyone on the intelligence committees or in the leadership (unless, of course, they didn’t care and so weren’t paying attention).
Folks are always telling me: kiddo there IS light shining between the two parties. And I respond; not on fundraising techniques there isn’t. The Democratic Party. The party of choice? Sure, if you choose the DLC and their candidates.
selise @ 75
I agree..but again the bottom line is electing as many Dems as possible in ‘08. Anything that causes divisions and “back biting” among the Dems is bad for the country. I send money only to progressives but in the general election the most reactionary Dems is still better than any Republican. We have got to hold things together for the next 16 months and hope we have elections in ‘08.
Scarecrow, Thank you so much for this post. Kit Bond was just on CNN discussing this bill and pounding on Wolfs desk calling all Dems liars.. Of course his credentials as a member of the intel committee were constantly repeated by Wolf and Kit had the entire studio to himself…no opposing view or detailed questions at all.
nonplussed @ 86
He also said that the President can search and seize based on the powers he has under Article 2. He said that Clinton used it to search Aldrich Ames without a warrant.
Everything W does is based on falling back on Article 2, or the abuse thereof.
Rove’s Hatch Act violations will never be prosecuted, but maybe one could make the case for RICO with regard to all of the RNC stuff.
If you believe that the constitution allows the unitary executive to do whatever the fuck it wants, then it is a truism that no piece of legislation adds to that power.
On the other hand- if you are sane- well that’s different.
rwcole @ 63
That is a very concerning paradox, isn’t it. Bush is just the moronic, psychopathic front-man for “The Party” but the increasing consolidation of extra-Constitutional power during the run-up to the ‘08 elections???
The options come down to:
Support the goopers
Support the dems
Move to Canada.
November 2008 may be the end of a 39 year affiliation for me and the Democratic Party. As things stand now (subject to abrupt change) I will vote for the nominee of my party. After that? It all depends. I’m just about fed up.
Go down to the local 7-11 or whatever and steal a candy bar. And if you’re caught you will go to jail. Cheney, Rove, Libby and Bush will never spend one second in jail. Now that’s justice.
rwcole @ 96
Bonjour!
-GSD
The Dems claim they were hoodwinked is pure, unadulterated BS in my estimation. How much longer are they going to be allowed to use the incompetence dodge every time they act in support of further lawlessness?
It’s time to wake up and realize they aren’t on our side, or the side of the constitution. Pelosi and Reid are playing for the other team when it comes to stripping us of our rights.
Breaking News:
The Whitehouse announces the engagement of Karl Rove and David Gregory.
-GSD
rwcole @ 96
Moving to Canada will be classified as giving “aid and comfort” and will allow the confiscation of all assets.
Steve-AR @ 90
well, i agree with your goals… but i’m no longer convinced of your tactics… having serious doubts here…
my support is not unconditional. and i don’t think it’s working out that the dem leadership thinks it is… if that means they don’t have to actually do any of the things they promised us.
lets cut right to the chase – the dems will do nothing – they’ve proven it time after time – as i have no legal knowledge just gut feelings – they are afraid of doing anything that smacks of decisiveness – its disheartening to say the least…
GSD @ 101
How I enjoy your comments. Don’t know what the GSD signifies, but I get a mental image of a lovely German Shepherd Dog – smart, powerful message, and underappreciated wit and charm. ;^)
OK kiddo, I am watching this mornings debate and Kucinich just gets better and better.. Almost every time he responds he has a detailed plan if not actual legislation proposed and on the table for so many of the issues raised.
As good as the Dems look when all are standing up trying to tell us what we want to hear.. Kucinich cuts to the chase, has a plan of action, and sounds better than anyone else on the stage.
LS @ 92
Bond is playing some semantic games here. Ames’ house was searched by the FBI as part of a foreign intelligence operation, on Clinton’s orders, but, at the time, FISA only covered foreign intelligence electronic surveillance. Therefore, at the time, there was no law which covered that circumstance. Clinton probably should have gotten a domestic warrant (and probably could have gotten one), but it wasn’t illegal at the time, because the information leading to Ames was generated by foreign intelligence surveillance.
What Bond also does not mention is that a Republican Congress, a year later, added physical searches under the warrant requirements of FISA. At that time, the law changed, and Bush’s so-called inherent Article 2 powers–in such instances–were limited by act of Congress. Congress was effectively limiting the President’s powers and yet, Clinton signed the bill.
It’s possible that deep in the REAL gooper think tank- buried in an undisclosed location- there was some discussion a decade ago about the future of the party..
“With the growth of the hispanic and other immigrant population and with addition to the underclass- we will not be able to sustain a majority in this country past 2010 or so- no matter how successful we are. There is no way that we can count on holding either branch of congress in the long run. We MIGHT, however, through artful use of the electoral system, manage to hold the White House the majority of the time- which will mean holding power over the courts as well.
We will need to build the power of the presidency well beyond it’s present level to make congress largely irrelevent. A strengthened presidency supported by a compliant court system will give us all the virtues of a dictatorship while maintaining the appearance of a democracy”
Don’t know if anything like this happened- but the bastards BEHAVE as if it did.
Scarecrow:
Thanks again for writing such a thought-provoking post. If it isn’t out of line or too intrusive, would you share a bit about your point of reference? Are you coming at this from a legal tack, a political analysis tack – something else? You are so well-versed on so many topics that I don’t get a sense of how you come at these subjects. Just my own curiosity (and admiration)….
rwcole @ 96
uh, no. there’s lots more options.
for example – some people are working to change the dems from the inside. other people are supporting social movement politics. there’s no end of options.
blacks in this country didn’t end jim crow and get the vote (well, major progress anyway) by supporting one political party. they got it by demanding their rights.
my ignorant read of history is that that our goals are most likely to be furthered if there are people working both within and outside the electoral system. we’re all on the same side here, even if we choose different tactics.
Again, we read that Congress is voting on things they have not read. The majority of these Congress people are lawyers. Seems to me, this is Congressional malpractice. Good grief, I doubt these guys would sign a personal contract they had not read, but they will sign off in a state of blissful ignorance when it’s only their constituents involved. It’s time for a new branch of branch of goverment, “The Department of Quarterly Performance Reviews.” Poor review for two quarters and you’re fired.
N=1,
Quite a flattering portrayal.
It is the acronym for Granite State Destroyer. That is a song by a NH band called Scissorfight. The line from the song I really liked was ‘Weed, guns and axes, we don’t pay our taxes, ’cause we don’t exist on any government list’….
Anyhow, the name Granite State Destroyer sounded a little too much like a rightwing troll……all machismo and all so I cropped it to GSD.
Thanks.
-GSD
The revolution will not be televised cause only three combatanst showed up- and they’re 66 years old and on dope.
rwcole @ 94
FISA isn’t a shiny object, it’s the pulse on a dying truine government.
FISC has been reduced to perfunctory activity.
They will review, up to four months after the fact,
heavily redacted reporting (i.e., not the 5W’s regarding
instances of Teh Pogram(s), just that it *did* happen)
Congress gets twice yearly reporting or somesuch.
There’s never been any hitch in the wwp.
It’s not like the NSA was standing around
toe-tapping, waiting for the go-ahead.
If the Constitution is just a gd piece of paper,
what makes anyone think legislation
will be effective?
Congress knows this.
Where is the question WHY? What is it exactly that these clowns are trying to accomplish with this extra power? They don’t have enough time left in office to totally take over the country, unless they are ready to turn the troops loose in the countryside, but they are stuck in Iraq, so what can they do? I don’t think it’s possible for them to overwhelm the American people at this late juncture. So why are they doing it? Along with this why is another-why are the Dems still so timid? There is something we are not knowing here methinks.
Five soldiers quit cause the revolution couldn’t supply a macrobiotic diet.
Smelly stories coming from Ira…..The US is “tracking” 50 members of the Iranian Quds force.
My, what a great strategy to announce that publicly. They’ll never guess they are being tracked now.
I am sickened at how mendacious the Pentagon propagandists have become…..using domestic propaganda used to be illegal, now it is essential.
-GSD
juslin @ 104
well of course they won’t do anything if we don’t do our part.
it’s hard to realize that they aren’t on our side… but that doesn’t give us an out. we don’t get to cave just because congress did.
If I were a part of a gooper conspiracy, I’d put a law and order “nuke the moslems” guy at the head of the ticket- like- say RUDEE- and arrange 9/11 redeux for just before the election.
OT…here is a good article on the REAL…Miss Piggy Rover
http://www.commondreams.org/ar…..225/print/
Cassie:
You & other young people give me hope. Keep up the great work.
Have you & your young blogger friends been able to find many other bloggers around the country in your age group focusing on politics? Another young person I can think of is Ava Lowery of Peace Takes Courage. I’m also wondering about the young woman, now in college, who was in the documentary about the Texas high school in a very conservative town who with her like-minded friends actively stood up for gay teens. Do you know of her (can’t remember her name or the name of the doc) & if she has a blog? Young political bloggers, whatever the number, should network & link up too.
I will not be surprised if I see you have an important role in helping our country return to reason. Molly Ivins must be cheering you on.
N=1 == none of the above (= tackless?). My fear is that the Dems, recognizing they’ve made a huge blunder, will try to fix it by compromising with those who don’t care about the Constitution, and thus come up with a replacement bill that compromises us permanently. I’d rather the awful statute sunset without a replacement as long as Bush in President, and we can try to fix it under a new President. So I argue the Dems should not fear a “gap” in the meantime.
Doing it now, with Bush in office and the Dems behaving as though some of them don’t get it, is dangerous. It is not a comfortable position, but I can’t see a better one.
I don’t agree the Dems or their leadership are hopeless. They have good people and some rotten apples, and they would do better with a better President — so I try to distinguish.
GSD @ 117
Bearded Bright Shiny Things.
GSD @ 112
Ha! I love it! Forgot that GSDs also have lovely sets of choppers that can make a terrifying snarl with just the right provocation! :^)
Clamberite @ 115
Because the Republican plan has been directed at one thing–keeping the party in the White House forever, either literally or practically–and they have consistently believed that this acquisition of power will make that possible.
selise had the legislative story on how the FISA revision was passed in the House with a link to pow wow’s parallel story on the Senate action here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/9/175141/9215
It is clear that passage of the FISA revisions was orchestrated by the Democratic leaders Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid together.
As for content, the Democrats had a bill which addressed the problem so they can’t really say that they didn’t know what was going on. Having their own bill gave them a standard for comparison and it was clear that the Bush bill went considerably further. Nevertheless, they bailed on their own bill.
I have heard many explanations for why the Democrats caved. I have found only one of them credible. It is the most venal. They wanted to leave for their month’s vacation. They had plans which a longer stay in Washington getting a good bill through would have disrupted. If the House had backed the Democratic bill, the Senate would have likely been called back into town by Bush. There woul have had to have been a conference committee, more votes, a possible veto, and 1 to 2 weeks of their vacation gone.
So they passed a sh*tty bill with a 6 month sunset and rode into the sunset themselves, thinking no one would care, notice, or put together the story of their cowardice and complicity.
The goopers are dinosaurs as a political party–they won’t last another decade. That gives them the freedom of “nothin much to lose”.
Steve-AR @ 90
I used to think this way as well, but my mind is in the process of changing. There have to be minimum standards, and it seems to me that the bare minimum should be upholding the Constitution, not undermining it.
I’m also having another attitude change. A few years back, I reached the point where the Republican party was so clearly unamerican and immoral that anyone who continued to willingly be identified with them became highly suspect no matter how good they were otherwise.
I’m starting to think this way about the Democratic party as well. I know there are good Dems, and I almost certainly will continue to vote for them. However, even for them, willingly affiliating with the party may become a minus with me nonetheless.
I’m not quite there yet, but unless the Democrats suddenly change their patterns of behavior real soon, it’s looking like I’ll get there in time for the election.
Scarecrow,
Thanks for this! The FISA bill stinks from top to bottom. We should write our reps complaining about Dem leadership incompetence. We need better leadership than we are getting!!!
Bob in HI
Last week I asked Al Franken what he made of the recent vote on the FISA bill. He said he thought it was a mistake and that Congress should have remained in session to work out the details of the bill.
- Tom
selise @ 110
Well said! And thanks for cooling my ire just a tad. :)
Siun has a new thread ready.
rwcole @ 108
sharp & spot on, rwc.
this is exactly what an amoral political strategist would concoct for permanency.
throw em a bone and put a bow on it.
“taking over the dem party” won’t work unless the american public changes their minds about a lot of things first. It will only lead to a gooper domination.
The ugly truth is that the people most to blame for what’s goin on in this country are the average joe blows who value tax cuts and bombs over civil liberties and justice.
I zedded!!!!!!!!!! Yeay !!!
Siun upstairs.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..e/#respond
rwcole @ 127
“Freedom’s just another word for nothin left to lose”……?
Somehow, I don’t think Kris K had the repubs in mind when he wrote that….
Scarecrow @ 122
Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking that I wasn’t following your argument, but I was. I also am concerned about the “danger” factor in allowing (hoping) that it will simply expire and what can and is being wrought in the meantime. Let’s just say that I have some first hand experience on the receiving end of the 2004 Ohio Republican coup, and that people are being disappeared via voter suppression and domestic terrorism by government.
I believe that everyone is under surveillance by a variety of means, and that data mining is being conducted in every facet of all of our lives. This FISA loophole is the size of a noose, and Congress may be the ones standing on the platform staring into it.
I’m beginning to think that it’s our country that needs to be liberated, and the question is, liberated by whom? What’s left of our citizenry? Another country?
Oh, Canada!
In the words of TeddySanFran:
If only the children of light were even half so attentive as the children of darkness.
Canada’s not so bad. Their english is better than their french- they are sane about war- they have universal health care- and in some parts of the country they make decent beer…
It’s just so fuckin COLD!!
selise @ 103
With the increasing power grab by the Republican party…for example:
..Bush administration officials have already signaled that, in their view, the president retains his constitutional authority to do whatever it takes to protect the country, regardless of any action Congress takes. At a tense meeting last week with
rwcole @ 139
I think we will stay in the US and fight for America.
SteveR
Sounds about right..Last time we “took over the democratic party” we got “Nixon”.
SnarKassandra @ 141
That’s a beautiful statement.
Per Scarecrow:
So what happens when this law expires? Does the previous FISA law go back into effect?
I think that Bush would veto any bill that any of us would think reasonable.
Millineryman @ 143
Yeah but I skipped the part about never having left Texas and being scared of ice and cold weather.
Here’s my legislative agenda for the next 16 months. DON’T do a fuckin thing. Anything you try to do with the narrow majority and a gooper in the White House will be so fascist infected that it will be worse than useless.
OK Dems- I don’t want to see any legislative calendar- just investigations.
SnarKassandra @ 145
Doesn’t matter if you’re scared about ice and cold weather. You not scared about fighting the injustice you see, and that’s more powerful than ice and cold weather.
Cassie:
Being a Minnesotan, I am scared of poisonous snakes, spiders & hot, hot weather!
I am curious about how many other young politca bloggers you know of, re: my questions @121
rwcole @ 146
Yes, I think that would be fully acceptable. Spend the rest of the term investigating all the wrongdoing. But to be serious, impeachment has to be specifically put back on the table or it’s all just more dog-and-pony.
seep
You think that this bunch of clowns who couldn’t get enough votes to block FISA could muster enough for impeachement?
It’s a fantasy–won’t happen- waste of time to think about in my opinion.
These are the writers we have at youthinkleft.
#
Writers
* Alex Habrock
* Aryeh
* Brendon Schweers
* Brittany Leach
* Bryce McCloskey
* Daisy Bond
* David Kirk
* David Robinson
* Emily Oppenheimer
* FrecklesCassie
* Hilary Leewong
Also, Asher has a blog at http://www.LeftWingKid.com
And there’s a bunch of kids who broke off from our blog and they are at http://www.thinkyouth.net/
ESTRAGON:
We’ve no rights any more?
VLADIMIR:
You’d make me laugh if it wasn’t prohibited.
ESTRAGON:
We’ve lost our rights?
VLADIMIR:
We got rid of them.
-Waiting for Godot
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMz1-Kgz_DI
Cassie@151:
Thanks.
I’m hoping that young people are reading smart politcal blogs, if they are not blogging themselves.
Cassie:
Hove you discovered Sinclair Lewis yet? Easiest to read in the chronological order he wrote, but don’t miss these:
Main Street
Babbitt
Arrowsmith
It Can’t Happen Here
Elmer Gantry
Also, Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle is a must read on your list.
Bob Herbert and Barbara Ehrenreich are contemporary writers who often explore some of the same themes that you question.
Don’t forget to investigate the National Forensic League (NFL). I believe that participating in the NFL could give you and your fellow bloggers a real leg up in the college scholarship and sociopolitical arenas. Here’s a link to the Texas info on the website.
RW — I know, but one can dream, right?
Although I don’t think the FISA problem had as much to do with being unable to muster votes as with actively wanting the legislation to pass.
And I’m not asking for success. Just an honest and energetic effort.
“YoYo” (you’re on your own) sounds Libertarian to me- is the GOP trying to (once again) find another base to hook into?
I’m also past hope on impeachment and thus I’m beyond ashamed for what’s to come.
The GOP convention is in my town and I expected to demonstrate. I’ve already heard that the “demonstration area” is fenced in and “out-of-the-way” so no news media will be picking that part up. Now, I feel that even showing up with a sign will get me arrested and I might disappear with hundreds of others by that time.
OT: terrible flooding in south Minnesota…this is practically unheard of…a catastrophy for those people.
One more thing-I too have withheld money and made the statement to the Dems that they need more action if they want my support-And I’ve seen the same sentiments in other threads here; but I wonder if this is the right attitude. For while I am standing on the sidelines waiting for something to happen to please me, the Repulsives are working as a unit to steal my country right out from under my feet. Maybe I should hold my nose and quit trying to be so elite and get to work. There is no way these bastards would have gotten this far if we hadn’t (and I mean all of us) been asleep at the switch. Truly, I confess I never thought people would believe the shit these guys shovel. Here I am wrong again. We are better than them in every way except organization and lying. At least we can work on the former.
Clamberite @ 157
i’m planning on supporting howie’s blue america choices (although i don’t have much to donate) – even (especially?) his independent choices.
we don’t have to decide to either support the all the Ds or none of them. we get to pick and choose who we support.
Let’s not forget that it was AT&T who let Americans know that they were spying on our phone calls for the White House. Here’s the proof that we all received in our mailboxes:
http://blog.wired.com/27bstrok…..dwards.jpg
For those who are working out timelines, and studying House and Senate procedures, great, but beware “The Process Dodge”.
lambert strether @ 160
thanks for the warning (great link), but i think this time (which is the first time i’ve chased the ball of string) a study of the house timeline shows that the process was manipulated – by the dem leadership – to get the administration bill passed, and not the negotiated version.
marcy has more here.
Oh, don’t worry, I’m not counting on the mess being clean up before a new administration comes in.
In fact, I’m not counting on that ever happening. Never, ever, ever. I think we broke it, we bought it.
My only question is, Did the all the Democrats massively collude in letting this happening? Or was it only some of them. I’m guessing they all knew what was going down.
It’s clear to me that the lion’s share of this snooping desired by the White House has absolutely NOTHING to do with “The War On Terror”™, and is instead using up vast amounts of manpower, money and intelligence resources to allow the GOP to listen in on everything and anything concerning the Democratic Party and/or Democratic activists. They do this for strategic purposes and in the forelorn hope of picking up traces of anything remotely like a scandal, that they could use to their political advantage. Is this just pure paranoia on my part? It’s already well established in the public record that this administration has been using national resources for the benefit of their political party, far beyond what would be considered “up to the legal limit”. Trust me on this, if we ever get anything remotely like *the truth* about this destruction of FISA, you’ll be shocked at just how political and petty the entire fiasco was/is.
Oh, and by the way, watch the GOP spin on a proverbial dime if a Democrat manages to slip past the Diebold trap and actually win the Presidency. They will be screaming about personal freedom, jack-booted thugs and Big Government as though the entire Bush disaster never happened. All of this tearing up of the Constitution will become just another big chunk of Republican amnesia and they will be devoted, full time, to tearing down the power that Cheney and Bush claimed was so important to have!
Twisted Martini @ 6
Despair? It RE-fills me with blind rage every time it is brought up again. I NEVER lose my anger but seeing this shit all over again rips the scab off the wound, tears the stitches, and tears open the gash anew.
I am F*CKING FURIOUS! I will NEVER get over this. As far as I’m concerned, the Democraps are dead and have ceased to exist. I support NONE of them. There is NO WAY to regain my grudging support again short of totally gutting the abomination that they so willingly passed last month. They are 100% complicit in the unconstitutional fascist (fact, not hyperbole) power grab by government.
The Constitution is ALL about limiting government, NOT limiting the rights of citizens. They politicos of BOTH parties have turned this on its head and believe that the Constitution grants rights to the people and that these rights are extant only at the largess and discrimination of the government.
It is NOT enough to simply let this atrocity expire. The Dems have a HELL of a lot to do to not only fix this shithole legislation, but go 200% beyond to make up for it!
NEVER forgive!
It took very little time for the Democraps to demonstrate, once and for all, that they are incompetent and must NOT be trusted with control of a lemonade stand, let alone a government.
I absolutely refuse to support by money OR votes a single Democrap in 2008. It is better and more “American” to vote for independents than to vote for treasonous GOPers OR Democraps. They are ALL equally treasonous and equally criminal. They steal from the taxpayer and they steal our Constitutional rights at every opportunity. The ONLY difference is the Democraps smile at you while they stick a knife in your back, the GOPers have the integrity and honesty to express their disdain and hatred while they stab you in the chest.
I despise all of them.
Ralph @ 162
i don’t think so… but we can’t tell. and that’s because, even those who may have genuinely opposed it, aren’t telling us the truth about what happened.
who’s come out and told us what really happened? no one. and that’s a shame.
Praedor Atrebates @ 166
i don’t think feingold, whitehouse and probably others were necessarily complicit.
i do think the leadership was though – especially speaker pelosi. and i think that’s important to recognize… or refute.
sporkovat @ 25
Your frustration is understandable.
I think the Dems in Congress suspect it wouldn’t matter what they do or whether they cut off spending, that regardless of their actions Bush would keep troops over there and still bash them for “not supporting the troops in a time of war”. So, they simply accept that and move on to the next logical step — impeachment and conviction. But, there the Republicans in the Senate would prevent success. So, we (yes, WE) move on to the next step which is to ensure a Dem becomes president in 2009, that we retain a Dem Congress and that in the meantime Bush remains the lamest of ducks and that Congress continues to chip away at his administration to remove as much of the crap as possible.
It’s a slow withering process and not much fun to watch, but I think it’s the only real avenue which offers any degree of success.
Congressional Republicans are the big impediment and to change their views we have to hang Bush and all the disasters around their necks and make sure the public learns as much of that as possible. The Congressional oversight hearings are a good part of that and the political campaigns which are in progress are also useful for that educational process.
Get enough public support and you can move mountains!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 81
Maybe they’ll learn something!
ccmask @ 83
She’s become quite the humorist lately. I guess being talked about by Republicans and Karl Rove will do that to ya.
But, it’s really worse. They aren’t leaving us on our own the way Reagan Republicans tended. This Bush crowd is actively destroying things and directly harming us. Remember, through their inaction in NOLA they basically let the destruction of Katrina kill people. These guys are much worse than Reagan-era Repubs.
rwcole @ 94
Woo hoo! Well said!
montag @ 107
Bill did a lot of good for the country. It’s a shame he didn’t have a Dem Congress. All that time with Repub control had build up a very big backlog of important stuff we need to do. That is why we need new leadership. This isn’t a “change election” just because Bush was a disaster — it goes much further back than that.
That’s one reason I suggest we can’t afford a centrist or moderate like Hillary this time. I think we need someone much more interested in Progressive activism. If Obama had a bit more meat on his bones I wouldn’t hesitate to support him. But, as things stand I have to move on to the left and vote for Edwards.
I also fear what the Republican slime machine could do to Hillary or Barack “Osama” “not Black enough” Obama during a campaign. It wouldn’t be pretty.
I keep waiting for someone to ask Hillary she ever smoked marijuana and whether she inhaled.
I keep waiting to for someone to ask Barack what it’s like to use crack cocaine and whether he’ll ever kick his addiction…to cigarettes.
We Dems might be concerned with picking the best candidate based on ideas, experience, character and the like, but Republicans are interested in slamming their opponents face down into a muddy ditch.
GSD @ 117
And then they say Dems are undercutting the troops with anti-war talk. Oy!
[ Note: My first reaction was to interject in French, but it just didn’t express the frustration that ‘oy’ does. ]
Scarecrow @ 66
As I understand it, with the AG’s authorization, or sanction, or whatever they call it in the amendment, the one-year time frame would extend the surveillance in question through the Bush presidency. Just barely.
How ’bout that.
I wonder, does reading a foreign website such as the Hindu Times open a person up to “International Communications”?
“…and problematic domestic spying by the NSA, an organization that was never meant to spy on American citizens.”
Just as U.S. spy satellites were never meant to spy on American citizens, a practice that was expressly forbidden in the past, but based on an article I read the other day, is now okey-dokey.
A lot can happen in six months.
Football season will begin.
The leaves will turn.
And maybe Bush and Cheney will launch an attack against IRAN, shortly after the hot days of August pass and the milder Middle Eastern winter begins.
After which, IRAN will retaliate and somehow strike inside the United States.
Which will lead to Bush and Cheney declaring martial law, locking down our democracy, with their assuming absolute power.
Yes, a lot can happen in six months.
And the gutting of FISA, with the White House writing-in even more expansive domestic spying powers into the recently passed rushed-through law, could be another piece to add to this martial law puzzle.
Oh, and have you heard, DHS is organizing pastors into “Clergy Response Teams” to allay and quell citizen unrest…just…in…case…martial law ever is declared.
Where Bush and Cheney are concerned, always think the worst…which obviously some Democrats and even some Republicans have yet to grasp.
montag @ 12
First, aren’t these the same characters that were in the Nixon admin. They have just learned how to do things so they won’t get caught. I really believe they are spying on the opponents, just like Nixon was doing.
Plus, with that many more people able to see the cases that the DoJ is working on, they can either steer their ‘talking’ to fit the cases that are on going, or steer their lawyers to get what they want to happen.
Plus, most of those senators are lawyers, they KNOW what is going on. They know where the loopholes are, and they use them for their benefit. They are paid $160,000 , the founding fathers didn’t get that, and look what they did for us. Lot’s more than these guys.
Could anyone tell me if the Citizens Rule book is pertinent today yet. It is, or was, a way that the jury could get rid of a bad law.
Reading some of the legal things, it’s almost like they are still trying to figure out the meaning of the word “IS”. That’s what lawyers do today, some of them anyway.
montag @ 61
I think that this is precisely the reason, as well as using the information for private financial advantages.
Warrants necessitate “justification” and exposing the rationale of “terrorism” to someone in the judicial branch. The only reason that I can see in not wanting to have warrants is that they don’t want to have to develop the “terrorism” rationale. Plus they don’t want any sort of statement of record that can be used to show they CONTRIVED a false affidavit in order to obtain OTHER information.
The Bushies have started to use the argument that the warrant procedure is “too onerous” requiring large dossiers of “up to 150 pages”. But I suspect that these are actually extraordinary situations…and were submitted willingly…just to document to the FISA Courts that they were going after “big cases”.
If they seriously thought the record-keeping provision was too onerous they could have asked for a streamlined warrant process, requiring less paperwork…a summary of evidence that would be subsequently provided to the Court who could then TERMINATE the warrant if it failed to be sufficient to support the summary. This way they could get the warrant and meet the bulk of the evidentiary requirements later.
And there would be a paper trail of cases where they basically BS’d their way to to an illegal search.
THAT I suspect is why they oppose the warrants process altogether!
Under this new “law” they don’t even have to provide the records to the FISA Courts…its only required that the Atty General and the head of the NSA “concur”.
BTW…Can anyone think of a rationale for the FISA Court existence anymore if Bush can simply examine any electronic communication, anytime without requiring warrants?
LS @ 92~
He also said that the President can search and seize based on the powers he has under Article 2. He said that Clinton used it to search Aldrich Ames without a warrant.
Everything W does is based on falling back on Article 2, or the abuse thereof.
Aldrich Ames was determined to be “an agent of a foreign government”. Clinton’s ability to search without a warrant WAS questioned…by the right wing, IIRC (perhaps even Kit Bond leaves a paper trail about “Clinton’s misuse”)…when the search was made. But Ames never challenged the search in Court, he plead guilty…largely because the evidence already obtained was pretty devastating.
The FISA Law was subsequently changed with regards to the Ames case and other issues…including transformations in cell-phone and eleectronic communication. The ability to apply for a search warrant “post hoc” was one of those changes.
Scarecrow @ 122
I agree, they should just return to the old FISA law by revoking the “August” bill in September…with the narrowly drawn patch that allows ONLY foreign-to-foreign electronic communications to be surveilled with a FISC warrant. That will likely be vetoed…but then they should wait until it expires and tell Bush that they offered him the compromise to fill the gap in September and he vetoed it.
BTW Just precisely has been the “big terrorist incident” that the WH, NSA and Repugs were howling about that required this “immediate fix”! Remember that there was supposed to be some terrorist attack “imminent”? Wasn’t there supposed to be some attack planned on Washington, D.C. or something?
As of this time (here we are in the third week of August) I haven’t seen a glimmering of some big “take down” of any major terrorist operation anywhere in the world.
So exactly how effective has this “emergency law” really been in stopping this imminent operation?
Clearly the “chatter” was simply from the teeth of the Party of Fear.
I wasn’t aware that Congress had the right to violate the US Constitution’s 4th Amendment or the right to give the President permission to do so.
Have I missed something?
uh, kevin, no, they don’t
from a meeting yesterday attended by rep bean
they (the dems in the house) talked to mcconnel about a version different from the republican written one in the senate
they came up w/something mcconnel agreed to, then, after he talked w/someone in the white house, came back and said we needed this, this, and that
the house dems had two options, pass their version (still unconstitutional, but less so) and then have the need for a reconciliation of the senate passed version (that would have held up the congress from going on vaca or wouldn’t be done till after) and that was unacceptable because of the very very scary scary threats to the congress building itself, and all 535 regional offices around the country, so the house leadership (read: the person who took the salt and pepper shakers off the table) put the republican senate version up for a vote instead, that’s what passed
the worst thing about this (aside from taking white-out to parts of the 4th amendment) is that the house dems were successfully lobbied by
the terrorists who would NOT benefit from the bill, -er, were successfully lobbied by the republicans, who are disapproved of by a majority of the people of this country, to pass another rights restricting piece of legislation by succumbing to the fear as told to us by the administration, who we all know as honest and trustworthy