One of our favorite oh so serious people is at it again. Michael O’Hanlon of the amazing high flying Iraq Touring (or should we say Green Zone touring) Pentagon PR team – has written a paper arguing for the partition of Iraq. Since this appears to be a new favorite scheme (and was supported by Dr. Porter rather strongly in our Blue America discussion yesterday) it seems like a good time to share the thoughts of an actual expert on Iraq and the partition idea.
Enter Reidar Visser - an actual expert on the regional aspects of Iraq and its history. Visser is a Research Fellow at the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs (NUPI) and specializes in the Middle East and issues of regionalism and national structures. His publications are available at his website Historiae. (I’ve quoted at length from Dr. Visser’s writings over the past year so everyone can read some solid analysis of this issue – Visser provides a solid response and he deserves to be heard.)
The Partition idea began to gain traction last year amongst Democratic leaning, “liberal” pundits and really took off with the publication of Peter Galbraith’s “The End of Iraq.” Visser reviewed Galbraith’s work for the History News Network and warned of the danger of this new “liberal” thinking taking hold amongst US policy circles. Galbraith’s argument for partition is based in his experience in Iraq but as Visser notes: “it also becomes clear that his Iraqi contacts follow a highly biased pattern, where Kurdish elites (plus Ahmad Chalabi and a few other secularists) seem to dominate.“
Galbraith writes at length of his experiences in Kurdistan – an account Visser describes as: “a blunt and autobiographical account of how a US intellectual became deeply engaged in fuelling Kurdish ideas about breaking ranks with the rest of Iraq. In considerable detail Galbraith explains how he personally fostered many of the specific Kurdish demands for federalism, including principles which in one form or another would later find their way into the current Iraqi constitution.”
Visser continues:
Galbraith is at pains to render Iraq as an “artificial” and highly fissile construct. Indeed, he accuses his political opponents of “a misreading of Iraq’s modern history” (p. 206). But as soon as he moves beyond his particular area of expertise – the Kurdish north – the narrative becomes less convincing and the arguments more strained. For instance, Galbraith on two occasions reiterates the now widespread but highly erroneous notion that current ethno-religious divisions in Iraq strongly correlate to the old administrative organization of the Ottoman Empire: Mosul was supposedly “Kurdish”, Baghdad “Sunni”, and Basra “Shiite” …
In reality, however, Mosul was essentially a mixed-race province, whereas Baghdad, though home to a large Sunni community, was probably the largest Shiite province of the Ottoman Empire – with its borders extending as far south as today’s Muthanna governorate and with all the rural territory surrounding the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala solidly Shiite, Baghdad was actually far more of a Shiite point of gravity than was Basra (which politically was Sunni-dominated). This in turn means that there was never any such close fit between ethno-religious and administrative maps as that suggested by Galbraith, and that Iraq has in fact a far longer record of ethno-religious coexistence than he seems prepared to admit.
In the Fall of last year, as Joe Biden got really wound up with his “Plan”, Visser wrote a particularly good analysis which pointed out the serious flaws of this approach:
A few days ago, an angry voice could be heard on television: “Like heck we can’t tell the Iraqis what to do.” This was Joseph Biden, the Democratic senator! Yes, it is probably true that, if the United States seriously wishes to enforce a division of Iraq – by circumventing the Iraqi constitution – it has the military capability to do so. But it would be a tragic outcome of the supposed democratization of Iraq if Washington should choose to exit by neo-imperialistically imposing a particular state structure on the country. It would alienate huge sections of the Iraqi population. It would be a gross provocation to most of Iraq’s neighbors, who view a tripartite federation as a particularly brittle state structure and a powder keg in terms of potential regional instability. And it would be the ultimate gift to al-Qaida – who would finally get the manifest evidence they have been craving in order to back up their conspiracy theory of the US as a pro-Zionist force bent on subdividing the Middle East into weak and sectarian statelets. Senator Biden would do well to consider the long-term damage to American interests that would follow from such reactions before he annexes Basra to the Middle Euphrates, merges Diyala and Kut, and rips the heart out of Mosul.
And now we have O’Hanlon and Edward P. Joseph, Visiting Scholar and Professorial Lecturer, Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University trying once again to impose their vision on the reality of Iraq:
But what a plan! In “The Case for Soft Partition in Iraq” Joseph and O’Hanlon plunge into the modalities of bringing about “the organised movement of two to five million Iraqis”, no less, in order to create a decentralised state based on three ethnic communities. There is no question about the number – it has to be three. In fact, the authors are deeply worried that the Iraqi constitution with its protection of Baghdad as a separate entity (constitutionally, the Iraqi capital is not allowed to become part of larger federal regions) may create problems with regard to the consistent implementation of their own ethnic logic; they therefore demand that the capital region be partitioned too – with the Tigris river recommended as the most suitable partition line. The absence of popular support among Iraqis (they themselves acknowledge that “Sunni and Shiite Arabs have traditionally opposed partition, hard or soft”) does not seem to deter them at all; instead they choose to focus on the “comparable” example of Bosnia-Herzegovina, “where one of us worked extensively”.
On pages 9 to 11, Joseph and O’Hanlon (who in 2006 complained loudly in the US press after having been marginalised in the sessions of the Iraq Study Group) enumerate in greater detail the supporters of their plan. They appear to be, Joseph, O’Hanlon, most Kurds, and Abd al-Aziz al-Hakim, a Shiite politician. The authors are too modest: they could have added al-Qaida, which would welcome this kind of federation as a permanent scar on Iraq that would prove to the whole world how “Western crusaders are intent on dividing the Muslims”,…
What then follows in the section on “Implementing Soft Partition” should have come with some kind of warning to the reader. Here, using cool academic language, the authors review the nuts and bolts of relocating somewhere between 2 and 5 million Iraqis in order to create new ethnic federal entities. Snippets from this part of the report probably speak best for themselves: “we advocate where possible dividing major cities along natural boundaries” (p. 16); “on the actual day of the relocation operation, Iraqi and US-led coalition forces would deploy in sufficient numbers to look for snipers, cover the flanks of the civilian convoys, inspect suspicious vehicles for explosives and conduct similar tasks” (p. 17); and finally, on p. 24, “this [internal border] control system would place some burdens on Iraq’s internal trade and other aspects of its economy. It would complicate the efforts of individuals to cross from one region to another to visit family and friends. For the most part these burdens would be bearable. For individuals or businesses that need to make frequent crossings across Iraq’s new internal borders, or those willing to pay for the privilege, an EZ pass system [sic] might be developed to expedite movements for those with important and regular business to conduct.”
As Visser notes in today’s NYT Week in Review:
“despite arguments by those in favor of partition, “Iraq has no tradition of being compartmentalized into neat, sectarian entities,” except for a relatively brief period between 1880 and World War I.
“For long periods before the 1880s, the Ottoman Empire governed these lands as one,” he said. “It is untrue that the three Ottoman provinces that became Iraq in 1921 were characterized by clear sectarian identities.”
The conclusion to his critique of the O’Hanlon paper ties it all together as he describes the fantasies of these oh so serious people which conflict with the desires of the Iraqi people:
But in general, this popular dimension is only rarely reflected in media reports from Iraq, which instead tend to focus on propaganda by sectarian political parties that have good communications skills and are able to spin small gatherings of their diehard supporters as “massive demonstrations”. The problem is highlighted by these authors themselves: Joseph and O’Hanlon assert (p. 8) that there is “strong evidence” that “violence is steadily eroding national unity” – with a footnote to a short article by American journalist Sabrina Tavernise! Instead of engaging in this kind of contrived referencing they and other partitionists should take a long look at their own arguments, deal honestly with their most glaring denials of Iraqi facts (ranging from the mameluke government of Baghdad in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century to the cross-sectarian support seen in April 2007 for Shadha Hassun, the Iraqi contestant in the Arab “Star Academy”), and then ask whether there is anything left at all. The US invasion of Iraq was based on lies; it would do irreparable damage to the entire Middle East as well as American interests in the region if also the mechanics of withdrawal should be informed by fabricated evidence.
(added emph throughout is mine)
h/t to Jerid and thanks to mfi for introducing me to Visser’s work.




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2
that close!
This one takes some reading folks – but I’m sorta tired of the pundit class announcing what should be done to Iraq … instead of supporting *Iraqi* sovereignty.
Someone, please, tell me the perfect solution for Iraq.
It’s not partition? OK.
Tell me.
Thought provoking post..I am going to do more research..along with this post I will re-link the NYT op-ed for those that haven’t read it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/opi…..oref=slogi
Jonathan @ 4
Get out. Let Iraqis solve the problem. I am convinced that nothing they come up with will be worse than what we are doing, or would be doing if we didn’t pull out.
Steve – that NYT OpEd is superb … Eureka Springs had sent it along to me and I thought it was very important to read.
Thanks for bringing it up – I had no more room!
I told ‘em downstairs.
So the bottom line is we pull out of Iraq. It is after all… not our country. Does anyone honestly think we would have gone into Iraq if there were no natural resources there? I think our government refers to these resources as “our” vital interests.
Siun you are COOKING today!
Any chance O’Hanlon will co-author a book with Scott Peterson about how to improve spousal relations.
Just how much shitty advice do people need to offer before they end up with destroyed credibility these days?
-GSD
If the CIA installed the Peacock Throne in Iran, what makes us think we can’t do it again? Bush is just nutty enough to believe Cheney.
Laura … LOL! I am tired today!
and in immense awe of Jane and Christy!
GSD – OHanlon is quite a trip, eh?
I am so glad Glen is taking him on …
But HRC (among others) instruct us we can’t just pull out.
Steve-AR @ 5
Iraq is broken.
There are no bumper sticker answers.
The US is part of the problem, and needs to leave.
Multi-lateral negotiations in the region are the only workable start, and no-one on any side can foretell the end.
Any other promise, other than to work honestly and multi-lateral, is a delusion and a lie.
Pandora’s Box, that is all I can think of. Our “leaders” have created chaos, and they are forced to stand there with their finger in the dyke….indefinitely. D’oh.
What to do?
Is Chalabi really any worse than Cheney or Rumsfeld? Or for that matter Wolfowitz or Lieberman or Bibi?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 18
Damn Okk, you have a way with words.
albert fall @ 16
I agree with you. This is why we should never have gone in.
Is Hussein worse than…
Loo Hoo. @ 21
“Was”
I should note that Visser’s work includes a lot of really good info – I don’t always agree with him politically but I sure respect his scholarship. See in particular his analysis of the BBC poll of Iraqis … he really digs in (like Marcy!)
Was.
Mr. LS, will you please stand up?
albert fall @ 16
Iraq is broken.
And the last point is highly unlikely.
It’s like that Monty Python sketch… that is one dead parrot, Kaput! finito! Kicked the bucket!
the Iraqi State is over, decomposing. US influence there is entirely and only baleful. Liberal hawks with a new kind of think-tank tested of CPR are just angling for positions in the Clinton Admin, giving her talking points to cover up continued occupation.
So lets see. we have rove all over the sunday comedies. We have a bunch of military types trying to let everyone in on the well worn facts that we are getting lied to on a daily basis. We have the UK generals telling anyone that will listen that it is time to decamp this goddamned desert and head home. We have any congress person that can get someone else to fund their latest trip heading off to Iraq so that they can come back and proclaim the genious of the general who was unsuccessful in training the Iraqi police. We have the media stooges lapdogging the concept of the true evil ones- THE IRANIANS!- and here we have a philosophical discussion regarding who the hell cares.
While the verbiage is exciting and the concepts seriously can’t be challenged, our folks are dying or being mutillated on a daily basis.
Well, as I see it- the college kids are coming back and we will have one last oppurtunity to show this govt just who owns this country! Its marching time! It is Take Back time! It is PUT UP OR SHUT UP TIME!
Loo Hoo. @ 24
??? He’s at a gig.
This is stunning. I’m frankly speechless at the grotesque idiocy of Joseph and O’Hanlon’s level of analysis and planning. This is reminiscent of another era, circa 1942:
Snippets from this part of the report probably speak best for themselves: “we advocate where possible dividing major cities along natural boundaries” (p. 16); “on the actual day of the relocation operation, Iraqi and US-led coalition forces would deploy in sufficient numbers to look for snipers, cover the flanks of the civilian convoys, inspect suspicious vehicles for explosives and conduct similar tasks” (p. 17); and finally, on p. 24, “this [internal border] control system would place some burdens on Iraq’s internal trade and other aspects of its economy. It would complicate the efforts of individuals to cross from one region to another to visit family and friends. For the most part these burdens would be bearable. For individuals or businesses that need to make frequent crossings across Iraq’s new internal borders, or those willing to pay for the privilege, an EZ pass system [sic] might be developed to expedite movements for those with important and regular business to conduct.”
TexBetsy @ 20
We should never have gone in, period. To do so was wrong.
Any discussion today about how the “war” in Iraq was handled incompetently is badly, completely, off point, in my opinion.
Which Democratic presidential candidate will respond? The next time Joe Biden claims to be the only candidate with a plan to get out of Irak an opponent needs to say, “Yeah, Joe, but it’s a stupid plan.” If this idiotic, American-centric partition plan can be derailed, much of the -mentum of Biden’s campaign ends.
Someone needs to call Biden’s bluff on this, with exactly the arguments in your excellent post, Siun. What happens to mixed families on Relocation Day? What happens to businesses that serve all ethnic minorities? What happens to communities, homes, schools? Isn’t it enough that ten percent of the population are external refugees and another ten percent are internal refugees? Why must we cause more pain — and lend credence to yet another alQ argument!! — by imposing a colonialist solution?
Good to see that the EZ Pass manufacturer has found a gravy train, though! Jeebus.
It is starting to like like the fruits of Poppy Bush’s labor may be paying off for once in getting his dissipated, loser son out of the lurch once again.
The French foreign minister has paid a surprise visit to Iraq and the UN has voted to expand their mandate in Iraq to help the development of governmental organizations.
I guess Poppy was getting tired of watching little Georgie lose his baseball game.
-GSD
Yeah, but this Visser guy just seems like some pointy-headed academic who cares all about figgerin’ out what’s happening in reality in Iraq.
What the heck does he know about sounding impressive to powerful politicians and feeling the zeitgeist of US liberal hawk politics?
Tennessean – that sorta summed up for me the immoral arrogance of the pundit class.
Perhaps they’d like to go talk to some real Iraqis – in 130 degree heat with no water, no electricity and no food … about the wonders of EZPass?
LS @ 27
Thought he was lurking about!
Loo Hoo. @ 21
I try to look at problems as opportunities, but I think this one stopped being an opportunity some time ago. At one time, the end of Saddam’s reign was an opportunity for something better, but it sure appears that neither Iraq nor our own government were ready to make something of it.
Now it’s a mess, and our best choice probably is to get out. I suspect it’s Iraq’s best option, too.
Siun,
Thanks for this excellent lead to providing an opportunity to discuss an important subject. I almost became a Kurdish specialist in Grad School (in anthropology), and instead wound up as a spec*al*st in Iranian ancient history, with some expertise in the ancient languages of Iraq. From my perspective, Iraq has mostly been a unified political construct, dominated by different power centers: the South, under the Babylonians, the North, under the Assyrians and later under the Kurds (Saladin), and sometimes the East (under the Persians, such as Cyrus).
Our national policy is for a trilateral balance that has seldom been achieved in 5000 years of Iraqi history. Such a balance has proven unstable. The best one can hope for, under normal circumstances, is for relatively benign despotism by one of the power centers.
Its a bit like trying to balance a CD with a penny, nickel, and dime on it, on the end of a pencil. It can probably be done, for a short time, with a great deal of difficulty.
I notice that your intro also does not mention the fact that Turkey will not tolerate an independent Iraqi Kurdistan, and that Iran will probably try to undermine any region dominated by the Sunni: We have to pay attention to the external dynamics as well as the internal dynamics.
I would like to hear Dr. Visser’s comments on these observations.
Bob in HI
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
The bloated conceit of the ‘Washington elite’ is based upon the fallacy that they are all such intellectually-brilliant thinkers and ‘opinion leaders’. In truth, their cozy sinecures deped almost solely on their parrot-like ideological obedience to their masters.
As we saw with the rush to war in Iraq, the large majority of them are craven, cowardly herd animals of no integrity or independent thought, easily stampeded, and ever-attentive to regurgitating the handed-down propaganda of their masters.
Most of them exhibit less evidence of a brainstem than the average machine tool.
“Hello! I am an Iraki with important and regular business. Could I please have an EZ Pass?”
GI: “Sure!”
.
.
.
{{ boom !! }}
Ethnic cleansing via EZ Pass.
Loo Hoo. @ 34
He was. He’s playin’ now. :}
Teddy .. you mean you don’t think it will work out brilliantly? pshaw!
Jonathan @ 29
I think you’re right.
This is like contemplating how a Code Blue could have gone better, if only.
If only the doc in the first place hadn’t operated on a patient who wasn’t sick or hurt, if only there had been enough staff, if only there had been oxygen around, if only the crash cart had been resupplied correctly with the right meds, if only he’d noticed the patient had no pulse…and on and on.
Mods– what happened to my comment? Did it get trapped in moderation? Did I use a bad word?
Bob in HI
Bob Schacht @ 42
it’s here. hit refresh
Good one, Margot.
Sure hope the dems hold tight after the report next month. And defund anything other than getting our troops and the Iraqis who have helped them out.
Siun @ 33
But the new EZ-pass will deflect snipers bullets, and automatically avoid roadside bombs! The developer (a joint operation of Halliburton and Microsoft) promises!
Good grief. “Spec*al*st” is a bad word? My mind is boggled. The mystery of filters eludes me.
Thanks, Mods, for doing what needed to be done.
Bob in HI
Tom Friedman has offered a very serious resolution to this problem:
Just suck it.
-GSD
Here is an interesting article indicating that Iran has been striking into the Kurdish regions of Iraq.
It would appear that this is likely another pressure point being applied by the US to undermine the Iranian regime.
The poor Kurds are being strung along and will get tossed under the bus at the most convenient time for the US.
Note also the reporter indicates that they toured the Kurdish rebel area and saw no indication of US weaponry…..in an effort to douse concerns about US supplying of anti-Iranian groups.
Yet we know that 190,000 AK47’s were misplaced under then General Petraeus. In other words, the US can supply weaponry that is not American made thus keeping their hands ostensibly clean.
Very cynical indeed.
Thank you, Siun, for bringing to light the reality of mixed
ethno-religious coexistence in Iraq.
Whatever happens, a rebuilding plan should include people of all groups working side by side, so there is ownership and pride, thus protection of the infrastructure that will support their everyday lives (and create jobs).
Deja vu much?
Of course our myopic (to put it nicely) congress is conceptualizing any human motive of protection as predicated on separated parties. But the reality of human dynamics is protection comes from shared ownership. It also flies in the face of their fractured history, to enjoy every day the fruits of their shared labors.
Those of mixed lineages already know this.
We need to get the rebuilding teams in there.
The military has them, but they are waiting in the wings until they are tapped to do their jobs (i.e, funding sent in their direction).
Watch this Alive in Baghdad clip as one example of rebuilding the infrastructure. Powerful stuff –
If congress is to authorize continuation of any funding after Sept, it should be specifically earmarked (even though Bush said no nation building).
When it comes to the vote, it will become painfully clear that they are voting on funding rebuilding over there vs. over here.
Then we can drive home everything we’ve said about defense spending.
Sorry, had to get that out there –
OT..but more immoral arrogance..
Texas defies federal court with plan to execute man who did not kill
· Controversial state law led to murder conviction
· Accomplice had sat in car 25 metres from shooting
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0…..mp;feed=12
Regardless of Iraq, the Palestinian-Israeli situation continues to fester.
The Times also has a diary showing something of the life we have given the Iraqis, by Alissa Rubin, captioned Elegies From an Iraqi Notebook.
We have done great evil, and are being led into worse.
Bob Schacht @ 46
Spe C I A L I S t
Loo Hoo. @ 43
Loo Hoo (I love your handle), I believe we’re going to have a smooth, seamless transition from the Bush regime to what comes next.
Bob Schacht @ 46
What’s wrong with the word spec*a*ist. (test)
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
What is the Iraqi’s solution? It is their country. The are extremely smart. Let them decide.
Bob Schacht @ 46
Words within words Bob…
Bob Schacht @ 45
Look closely within that word for a drug featured during most Countdown commercial breaks; the one that ends, oddly enough, with the couple in separate clawfoot bathtubs.
Bob, c*al*s is the bad word. Unfortunately, it’s embedded in a spec*al*st and soc*al*st…
Phucking Pharma.
LS @ 53
Rudyard Kipling would be appalled.
TeddySanFran @ 57
He’s dead.
Bob – glad your comment got through! I didn’t know about your studies … I’m jealous.
Visser’s own work centers on Basra and the south – and he does say a great deal about the very diverse attitudes Iraqis have towards Iran – including amongst Shiites (again, much to our pundit class’ dismay). I haven’t read comments from him on Turkey (may have simply missed that) but I’d be interested in what you think of his perspective on Iran’s role.
GSD @ 47
The Iranians are only slightly less opposed to an independent Iraqi Kurdistan than the Turks, because Iran has a sizable Kurdish population, too, in its western provinces. If the Kurdish areas of Turkey, Iran, and Iraq were allowed to unite, you’d have one of the most powerful non-Arab states in the Middle East, on a par with Turkey and Iran.
Bob in HI
LS @ 60
Hence the “would be” and not the “is”.
Steve-AR @ 49
Sean-Paul Kelley has been covering this in great detail at the Agonist. Here’s one of the latest. It’s personal for him.
I find it odd lately how nobody ever mentions Muqtada-al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army when they talk or write about the end game in Iraq. He is the undisputed spiritual leader of the majority in Iraq, the Shia. He has been formidable militarily in the past and I think he will be the leader of Iraq, maybe minus the Kurds, when the day of reckoning finally comes. The MSM and politicians seem to be ignoring him but I think he is just chilling waiting for the US to make their move so he can move in and take control when they leave or pull back to some outer perimeter of yet to be determined location. There ain’t going to be no three state everyone gets along and stays on their own side solution. What about the many inter-married sunni shia families, where do they go?
A good night OT: The Pump Handle blog has a must read that will set your hair on fire. I hope that Tula or Jane or Christy will keep the mine safety problem front and center because it reflects so many broader worker safety problems and loss of protections. This blog has been absolutely extraordinary in its description and analysis of the general and specific problems.
TexBetsy @ 52
Ah! Comes the dawn. Thanks for the explanation.
Bob in HI
The only thing that scares me anymore is WW III. And some argue it has already begun. If so… we, the United States started it under the leadership of one, George W. Bush.
I would have guessed that this information was freely available prior to the beginning of this mess, It would have been nice to have included it in the planing. Oh thats right there was no planing and no thinking about the war, just a big get r done.
All I ever hear about is what the Iranians think, the Americans think, the Norwegians think, the Saudis think. What do the Iraqis think???? It’s their country.
TexBetsy @ 61
I know. Just snarking.
Biden’s first Iowa ad promotes his “plan” and is getting TradMed traction, since he’s so serious and all:
Apparently, Biden plans to campaign on a discussion of flag-draped coffins in planes he rides home from Irak, a place he has a plan to carve up.
Again, which candidate will break away from the Biden plan and dare to call him foolish?
Get the hell out of Iraq, America.
marshen @ 65
Good points. Muqtada al-Sadr has been playing his hand well, and I think you are right that is militia will dominate in the South. The question will be, how much will he attempt to control?
As for your last question, this is one of the tragedies. Baghdad used to be an integrated city, open to all of the minorities. For an answer, look for what happened after the British partition of Pakistan and India at the time of their withdrawal sixty years ago. It was a very ugly scene, and one that I am sure is on the minds of those remaining few in this administration who are actually trying to think and plan ahead. There must be a few of them, most likely in the State Department. Condi Rice might listen to them, but Cheney won’t. And apparently Biden won’t, either.
Bob in HI
Bob, that is why the Kurds will get sold out by the US when the time is right.
-GSD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 67
Some Rightards argue that this is WW IV or V. Clearly, any sense of perspective disqualifies you from being a Rightard.
Maybe the reason O’Hanlon and the rest like partition is that Kurdistan in the North of Iraq would be inherently destablilizing to Iran, and would also be a problem for Turkey. More of the Great Game for the realpolitik crowd.
Thanks for this post, and thanks for introducing Prof Vitter’s work.
Does he have an analysis of that nice, thoughtful, and learned Prof. Friedman’s ’suck on this’ plan? I would like to read it.
Here is what is going on in Jamaica, as we speak (link per Siun earlier):
http://www.jamaicans.com/forum…..p;fpart=13
Yes, why doesn’t Barack Obama or John Edwards ask Joe Biden how his plan is different than what happened during the Indian/Pakistan partition? A million people died then.
And how does Senator MBNA plan for this to be any different on Relocation Day?
Someone needs to start calling him Senator Mountbatten.
GSD @ 74
The Kurds have been thrown under the bus for centuries. I remember Bill Safire writing about them in the 80s and 90s, explaining their cursed history.
Visser! I been groggy all day from excess summer lazing. Sorry. I will remember, Visser, when I do the internet search.
GordonM @ 76
Their intention is Perpetual War…WWII forever…..no way!!!!!
EZ Pass, good gawd! Why not just tattoo a bar code on every Iraki cheek and give them a little gps implants, like cattle. the pentagon can hire a new PR firm to tell the Irakis, Prada told us it was fashionable this year.
Cowboy fascist partitioning, now there is a winning idear.
Although it is interesting to note that the ISG report reincarnated by Blue Dogs and DLC lovin Senators seems to have lost ground over the last month.
The goal-post keeps moving in a circle.
masaccio @ 81
I think Robert Fisk called them the worlds orphans.
Sad indeed.
-GSD
If al-Sadr is canny enough a political leader to reach out to the Sunnis? If he is, he could indeed morph into the strong, unifying, nationalist leader, a “Ho Chi Minh” figure if you will, that could turn Iraq from the occupation of a nation in civil war, to a unified nation fighting to throw off an occupier. He would have the support of Iran, and the Mahdi Army could serve as the nucleus of an Iraqi Army, as all other efforts to build an Iraqi Army appear to have failed.
Eureka Springs @ 84
That’s a beauty.
Off-topic:
Sen. Leahy lands role in Batman movie
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..ahy_batman
LS – thanks for the mention of Jamaica … I am listening now to reports from there. My favorite Power160 is all static but National Radio is streaming well and you can hear the reports from Jamaicans who tell what is happening and hold each other up to get through this horror. The storm sounds worse than Ivan which mashed up by favorite part of Jamaica … gonna need a lot of help when this is done.
http://www.nationwidenewsnetwork.com/
just click on the words “listen to 550″ to stream
Reports are that the eye is passing just south, cat 4, Kingston winds sustained 130 MPH – just hitting western tip now … a long night for the people of the island.
masaccio @ 81
IIRC..The Kurds are the largest ethnic group in the world that doesn’t have a country.
Yeah, RonD – thanks to Bush, we’ll soon be ‘uniters of the Middle East!’
Kyle @ 37
This is the same mentality as a 14th century French court.
A Distant Mirror – Amazon link
RonD – the Sadrists have not been a Shia only movement and have tried to protect minorities in their area. I’m not sure what he would do in power but it’s not the simple demonized tale we get to hear.
Wes Clark at YearlyKos
During the Q&A after his address:
Entire transcript, audio, and/or video of entire address is HERE.
Siun @ 89
It is amazing to see what they are posting as it is happening. They are such great people. Did you read about the people stuck out on a barrier island earlier?
Bob Schacht @ 73
Sadr wears a black turban, meaning he’s a direct descendant of the prophet. The plan to take him out (advocated by many in the military) would be the absolute worst thing to do.
He seems to have played a pretty shrewd game so far.
That’s the real tragedy in thinking you can just take out a dictator (think Yugoslavia). All that repressed hostility towards the dictator ends up being taken out on fellow victims – just because there are those who will exploit differences in their attempt to become the new dictator. Yeah, the dictator’s favorites benefitted unfairly, but even the opposition amongst them are now fighting for their lives.
We learn nothing from our successes (post war Japan and Germany) and the exact wrong thing from our failures (Vietnam).
TeddySanFran @ 80
ah, but OHanlon just thinks the India Pakistan partition was simply not well done .. they didn’t get EZ Passes after all!
Can we please be clear about something? There has never been a plan for a democratic Iraq. A representative Iraqi government would not be a US ally. There is no way that a popularly elected government in Iraq would support Israel’s interests over Palestines, nor would regard Iran as part of an axis of evil. The only pro-American Iraqi government would be one installed by the US.
Right now, there is no sovereign government in Iraq. The US military dictates security policy. The US Congress dictates legislation that must be passed. Democratic presidential candidates spell out policies that assume no Iraqi control over their security.
Right now, there is no national defense in Iraq, other than that provided by the US. Iraq is not a functional state.
Sure, the US could try to impose the division Galbraith proposed four or five years ago. But such an imposition will have nothing to do with representative government. And it will involve ethnic cleansing, and serious disputes about access to oil resources.
But do not pretend that this is in any way different from the British awarding Iraq to the Sunnis in 1920. And don’t expect the Shi-ites to sit still for their disenfranchisement, as noted in today’s NYT op-ed page by some soldiers with real experience on the ground.
Cayman Islands in the way. They are not mountainous. Yikes!!!
jackaroyd .. that’s something we’ve been discussing here a lot. I certainly see the Green Zone government as simply puppets … and no one speaks for the Iraqi people today.
Siun @ 97
Yes, and the current Regime is so competent! Clearly they will overcome whatever stumped the English.
Washington Post: Private military contractors a US ‘crutch’ in Iraq
……….
………
Writes the Congressional Research Service in a recent report: “Iraq appears to be the first case where the U.S. government has used private contractors extensively for protecting persons and property in potentially hostile or hostile situations where host country security forces are absent or deficient.”
Of these contractors said to perform “functions once carried by the U.S. military,” recently gauged at 127,000, less than 20 percent were Americans.
………
………
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0819.html
Great piece, Xtina! This sums up very nicely what I was trying to say in the Porter thread yesterday.
OT – (I’m back and I’m OT!)
H. Clinton from the debate:
“But if you look at how we would have to take our troops out, plus the equipment, which we would not want to leave, plus what we do with the people in the Green Zone, plus what we do with the Iraqis who sided with us – thousands of them – plus, what we do with the more than 100,000 American contractors who are there – this is a massive, complicated undertaking.”
Nothing really to add… but the equipment issue – if you squint your eyes thinking really hard – opens a massive policy question. And exposes the final incompetence indignity.
Siun. In the NHC discussion, it says, “ALTHOUGH I
CANNOT EXPLAIN WHY…THE DETERMINISTIC RUN OF THE GFS IS ALONG THE
SOUTHERN END OF THE GUIDANCE ENVELOPE…WHILE THE GFS ENSEMBLE
MEMBERS ARE ALMOST UNIFORMLY ALONG THE NORTHERN EDGE”
I’m wondering why the “I cannot explain why”…comment…I’ve never seen a comment like that before from NHC.
Siun @ 93
This is my belef as well-it’s exactly why I think Sadr could indeed be the unifying nationalist. Indeed, acting as a unifying figurehead could be his most important contribution, as long as the administrations and institutions that form under him are even somewhat competent and just. All military resources being expended in inter-Iraqi warfare would then be turned on the Americans, under a unified command. At which point, the US implements the Exit strategy, if it hasn’t already exited thru Iran.
Here’s the best synopsis of Flossie I’ve read:
“Hurricane Flossie came out of the east with an attitude that she was going to terrorize the Big Isle.
With so much attention being given to Flossie, Madame Pele began to feel that she was being ignored, and that wouldn’t do!
Pele simply will not accept a secondary role here, so she arranged the earthquake(5.3) to once again focus our attention on her.
Pele’s sister, Hi’iaka, didn’t like the method used by her sister and went out to meet Flossie.
Flossie then realized that the Big Isle is a special place and, being overcome with the Hawaiian mystic, began slowing her headlong run to a mere crawl, tempered her fierce winds(Cat 2) and decided to just linger awhile, taking in the aloha and providing some much-needed rain, and a lot of interest for the national and local media.”
I can only hope for the best for Jamaica!!! *g*
*uck the equipment.
Siun @ 61
It is significant that in his review of Galbraith’s book, Visser is critical of the simplistic equation of Shi’a with Iranian interests. Visser’s excellent analysis here coincides with his own strength, because the Shi’a are best represented in the south, which is his area of interest. The one thing I would fault him on is that he fails to mention that Iraqi Shi’a, far from feeling dependent on the Shi’a of Iran, feel that the ideological center of Shi’ism is in Iraq, not Iran, at Najaf. He fails to mention that before the current Iranian regime won control, Ayatollah Komeini spent many years in exile in Iraq, and more specifically in Najaf! So Iraqi Shi’a tend to think of Iranian Shi’a as second class. This might explain Visser’s reference to “strong anti-Iranian leanings” among Iraqi Shi’a. The second reason might be that Iranian Shi’a are ethnically Persian rather than Arab, but Visser does not mention that.
Visser’s review of Galbraith’s book does not touch on Iranian attitudes towards Kurds at all.
Bob in HI
Well it’s time for Lahoma and I to do lesson plans for tomorrow. We each will deal with about 150 kids tomorrow. And I’m going to introduce many of them to the ‘unit circle’.
CTuttle @ 107
:>
President Bush signed a pre-landfall emergency disaster declaration for Texas, allowing federal equipment and supplies to be moved in now, White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said. Gov. Rick Perry asked for the declaration late Saturday morning and Bush approved it at his ranch in Crawford.
State and local officials were holding conference calls twice a day to assess the storm’s progress and further coordinate preparations.
Eureka Springs @ 108
I’m with you!!!
ccmask @ 112
When I was in a flood in TX in 2001, Bush did nothing, nothing, nothing. 12 people were killed in my neighborhood. Bastids….!!!
Sorry.
CTuttle @ 107
Good one, CTuttle!
Bob in HI
LS – login at Jamaicans.com and ask – a lotta folks there with a lotta knowledge and they are very friendly!
I’ll share a link I rarely share:
this is where the storm is hitting hardest tonight and where I yearn to go soon come:
Treasure Beach
and TB’s little website
http://www.treasurebeach.net/guide/default.cfm
BTW, Siun, I always look forward to your posts, and they are always thought-provoking and an excellent investment of time. Thank you-
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
Tangentially, that’s not a good sine (damn, where’s Punaise!).
Rob Zuber @ 88
Oh, for fuck’s sake! How many times are these guys going to deny history by saying, “Well, that’s not a good example!”?
Here we get to watch in slow motion absolutely empirical proof that those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.
I just hate thinking of all the people who are going to die directly as the result of ignorant Washington bubble-boys and their belligerent refusal to learn from events and evidence, to make the connection between what we have seen and what will result if we take certain steps. I’m not a foreign policy expert, but in 2003, I was looking at the potential invasion of Iraq and saying, “Uh, I don’t think this is such a good idea…”
It’s like Howie said, Kobe and Lucy and Katie would make better foreign policy decisions.
ccmask @ 111
Rick Perry’s hair is a national treasure.
Siun @ 116
Thanks. Goin’ there now. L
LS @ 113
I’m with both of you… though I think we should fly the planes out.
Interesting analysis in the Asiatimes. Says the US policy determining the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps as terrorists is a large step towards war and the Iranians perceive it as such.
Also indicates that any conflict would likely escalate quickly.
US Janus like policy towards Iran.
-GSD
RonD – thank you … it’s great to get to pull together my thoughts and then share in the discussions we have here and learn so much more.
GordonM @ 118
I love left-triangles. Good night. ;0)
Eureka Springs @ 108
All we hear about is how easily ruined the equipment is in the blasted desert anyway. What’s the point of bringing any of it home, to be scrapped? Unless there’s, you know, equipment. Something we would never, ever want the Irakis to have. Or their conquering neighbors.
Mrs Clinton might know more than she is letting on.
Trex … precisely! all the oh so serious folks somehow could not figure out what most of us sensible folks could suss out quite easily!
and the cost is so many dead Iraqis …
TRex @ 103
It certainly would be a good thing if he would change his views. Wonder if there is a way to bring that about.
added edit- and, if he doesn’t, no $$ from me.
RonD @ 106
I think Sadr will feel his way on this. He will consolidate his control in the south first– including control of the oil. Next, he will test the waters of Baghdad if there is any kind of power vacuum there. I don’t think he’ll try to chase too far beyond his power base, however, at least not any time soon.
IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Bob in HI
Neocons are floating partitioning trial balloons b/c partitioning is inevitable. Years of civil war will continue and Iraq will be partitioned. The only way the US can support its puppet regime in Iraq is to continue to invest (waste) blood and treasure there. As the Neocons desire to get it on with Iran, they shall abandon Iraq (save for the oiliest regions) and let the chips fall where thay may – that would be chaos, partitionment and civil war.
Maliki might be getting to the end of his leash. Last week he met with Ahmadinejad, coming up Syria’s Assad….Time for a plane accident.
-GSD
Hackworth – the big fans of partition are actually the neoliberal democrats who think hubris is a virtue.
Eureka Springs @ 107
Hold on there. The equipment is extremely valuable. Do you want to leave all those up-armored humvees, strykers and other mobile stuff there. You don’t want to leave the huge ammo dumps, the heavy weapons, the stuff we need to launch aircraft, the helicopters, and on and on. Maybe we don’t care about the Burger King and the PX, but there is way too much to leave behind.
GordonM @ 121
Heh, it could prove to be beneficial for Shrub, it could clear out all of his brush at his ranch!!! ;-)
Siun @ 133
It’s just a measure of how deluded these people are and why they must be stopped. They really think that this is a big game of Risk where they control all the pieces. They don’t understand (or just don’t care) about the lives being chewed up in the gears of their big toy.
TRex @ 120
Anyone with a High School or College course in world or Mid-East history could make the same prediction. And I got my quota of shit in my red state for saying it. That said, because the outcome was obvious, the present situation in Iraq was the desired outcome for the neo-cons and the christianists.
TRex @ 120
My 6 year old could make better foreign policy decisions.
I think that there is a disconnect between what reasonable, rational people see as wise or prudent foreign policy and what the Bushies see. I don’t believe there was ever any plan for real democracy in Iraq, it was just a way to sell the whole kit and caboodle to the gullible. Anyone with 2 functioning brain cells could see the invasion was a disaster from the get-go, hell Cheney even said so several years earlier! It has always only ever been about the oil, and, as psychotic as this sounds, the possibility of hastening Armageddon and the end of the world. I really don’t know if Bush’s embrace of religon is merely posturing, or if he truly believes that he has a pipeline to the Almighty. Either way it is going to take a long time to clean up this mess.
LS @ 55
It’s the standard we demanded of the British in 1776.
We not only had no legal authority to go into Iraq, we also violated UN resolutions when we occupied their country and overturned their government (a no no).
Of course, after committing all those horrible technical violations we went and killed about half a million innocent people — that seems even more substantial to me.
Yeah, Bush & Co are war criminals. No way around it.
We’ve gotta leave and the plans which call for keeping an embassy seem like lunacy to me.
I like Richardson’s admancy about leaving COMPLETELY, but I also think Edwards shift of attention to terrorists is worthy. He just has to be reminded the big picture has the vast majority of the militant jihadists in the Afghan-Pakistan area.
Even more comprehensively, I think that in lieu of real intelligence in the White House the last few years that it behooves us to go back to 9/11 and start over — take a new look at it with new eyes and learn what we can before jumping into the next ditch.
Politically it would be wise for the next Dem president to recall that it’s not at all uncommon for the Repubs to leave an incoming Dem president a nice heaping pile of flaming crap on the doorstep. Recall the Bay of Pigs for Kennedy and Waco & Somalia for an incoming Clinton administration. Lovely people those Repub tricksters.
So, once in office, take a few long breaths, survey the landscape and talk to people before committing to ANY policy or position.
One thing I really hated about today’s debate was that they were discussing this stuff and GS immediately changed questions to something about religion. What a maroon.
I would be surprised if there has not already been some covert approach to Sadr to discuss, say, the possibilities of what to do if Maliki were to fall: something like the US will not oppose the ascent of Sadr to power if Sadr wil continue to pump the oil. Also, what about al-Sistani? Any possibility of conflict between pro-Sadr vs. pro-Sistani forces?
GSD @ 124
That’s what I think also. My opinion of the folks who are pushing an attack on Iran is unprintable.
masaccio @ 134
I agree. We’ve given them quite enough to kill each other with, not to mention their neighbors, already.
I wonder where those 90,000 AK-47’s will surface? Texas?
Rob Zuber @ 88
“It sho is a white man’s world.”
Go Pat! Kick that bat’s robin and steal his batgirl.
I smell a whiff of Michael Ignatieff in O’Hanlon’s approach to an exit strategy for Iraq. Too much intellectual arrogance and ivory tower wonkery, not enough information, and no judgment. See Dan Kervick’s comment here for a thorough fisking of Ignatieff’s “mea culpa” in a recent NYT Magazine.
ccmask @ 143
I believe it was 190,000 AK’s of some sort.
LS @ 95
DEAN Forecast Information: NOAA
Best Satellite Images
masaccio @ 134
I was a Combat Engineer, the ammo dumps are not a major factor! The only true piece of equipment we would realistically have to leave behind is the Hummers, the Strykers and Bradley’s can all be air-lifted or shipped out of Kuwait!!! An orderly departure could realistically occur within a Friedman Unit!!! *g*
190,000 weapons, a mixture of AK’s and, IIRC, Glock pistols.
I’m in TX. I just went out. Young moon, beginning to get a ring around it. In Texas, if the Texas purple sage blooms, expect rain 48-76 hours.
RonD … from what I hear, Al Sadr has been careful to show only respect to Al Sistani and the mullahs. That doesn’t mean there a lot of love there but it does show wisdom.
And the sermons from the major mosques have been getting more heated and speaking of the people’s need to protect themselves.
So far, a lot of restraint has been shown by Sadr but someday he’ll let his forces act.
There have been battles between Mehdi army and Hakim’s SIIC … and they seem to be more frequent at least in the Iraqi press.
Stupid Hummers. I can’t fucking believe that they sent our kids off to war in a bunch of fucking SUV’s. With $25 a gallon Halliburton gas to run them.
What.
The.
Fuck.
I agree with comments above, everyone should read this editorial. I think this is much better than anything I’ve seen from the warmonger pundits in the media. I wonder if the WH ‘Petraeus’ report will be as well reasoned and argued?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08…..amaha.html
albert fall says: August 19th, 2007 at 6:21 pm:
“Multi-lateral negotiations in the region are the only workable start, and no-one on any side can foretell the end.
Any other promise, other than to work honestly and multi-lateral, is a delusion and a lie.”
I also agree, completely.
GordonM @ 118
May the circle be unbroken.
Siun @ 133
There is a certain amount of truthfulness or at least owning up to reality in raising the topic of partitionment. Even when warmonger O’Hanlon does it, his words are portentious.
It is intellectually dishonest, however, for Biden or O’Hanlon or anyone else to pretend that partitionment is something the US can plan or guide on behalf of the various Iraqi ethnic groups in any equitable manner.
The puppet regime will fail as soon as the US ceases to prop it up.
TRex @ 152
Look at it as sort of a compensation thing. Guys who drive those rediculous Hummers are trying to make up for “shortcommings” in other areas. My idiot step-brother drives one, and he can barely afford the gas for it. Every time I see him I smack him upside the head just on general principles.
RonD @ 140
Sadr wouldn’t ever meet with Americans. He’s assume he was going to be killed, and with good reason. I doubt the Americans could find him if they wanted to.
CTuttle – since they are having trouble supplying gas to the Green Zone already, I suspect they are not likely to have the capacity to ship out anything … it will not be a pretty retreat.
TRex @ 152
Our generation drove around Vietnam in Jeeps. Given the choice, I think I’d take the Hummer.
The problem isn’t the vehicle, it’s where the front lines are. When there aren’t any, logistics vehicles like Jeeps and Hummers will never have enough armor.
tryggth @ 123
Of course we should. Another point how much time and $$ will we actually lose if we leave a bunch of “equipment” at 12 billion a week occupation costs plus cost of shipping out of Irak and storage gawd knows where.
Mommy I cant leave the burning house (and yes I started the fire) because my equipment is here.
Ctuttle and everyone .. if you don’t keep an eye on Main and Central, you might want to. Lurch is a veteran who provides really valuable info on the miitary situation in Iraq inc. the state of supplies, etc
Main and Central
OT: Hummer owner lives with his momma, gets his widdle Big Truck vandalized.
Steve-AR @ 146
Oh yeah. That’s right.
GSD @ 124
Kurds Flee as Iran Guard Shells Iraq
madmommy – To Bush, “democracy” is gov’t by the rich, for the rich.
On the equipment: we’ll blow up everything we can. At least, if someone with a measurable IQ is giving the orders.
Loo Hoo. @ 157
There have been skirmishes between Iran and the Kurds for a while – same with the Turks. The Kurdish rebels have been making incursions into Iran and Turkey … and those countries are hitting back.
Of course, there are reports that we have managed to get a lot of weapons to those rebels … and it sure is convenient that we now fuss about the Iran Guards fighting back.
Siun @ 158
Sorry, too much of an optimist, however, I know I’ve mentioned flashbacks of Saigon ‘75, before…!!! *g*
ccmask @ 163
Who knows, at this point? We’ve put hundreds of thousands of those things into the hands of Iraqi security forces. Many, maybe most, have been sold or stolen at least once, I think. They’re one of the few things many Iraqi cops and soldiers have they can sell for cash.
RonD @ 140
Sadr and Sistani play different roles. Sistani is not merely an ayatollah, he has been the Grand Ayatollah since 1992. Sistani is the Grand Ayatollah in Najaf. I think it is more likely that they will team up. For the relationship between Sistani and Sadr, see the Wiki article cited above. Sadr’s strength comes from his militia. Sistani’s strength comes from the reverence given him by legions of Shi’a clerics in Iraq. Sistani has disclaimed any interest in politics; but anyone who wants to lead Shi’a Iraq will probably seek his favor.
And yes, Sistani is Iranian in origin, but that doesn’t mean that he thinks he is inferior in any way to the Iranian ayatollahs. In fact, he accepts wilayat al-faqih (the authority of jurists) but does not agree with Ayatollah Khamenei’s definition for it. (See Wiki).
Bob in HI
wesgpc @ 153
I think Richardson, the one who sometimes doesn’t think on his feet, has proposed the same. Too bad Bush has pit all sides against each other, marginalizing the Baathists, causing the professionals to flee, upholding Sadaam’s anti-union policies, etc. Come to think of it, Bush has done for Iraq what the Shah did for Iran. Will the result come as a surprise?
As far as removing ammo and bombs.. Does anyone think that kind of stuff will not be sold off to the highest bidders by whomever gets the removal contract?
I wouldn’t believe we removed it or destroyed it no matter how many flashy pictures they show us on youtube.
Siun @ 161
Mahalo Nui Loa, Siun!!! Kewl site!!!
GordonM @ 165
At this point it is quite a stretch to expect that someone with a measurable IQ is in charge of anything. One always hopes, though.
Bad news politically, I read today that only 27 or so reps in the House have signed on to the AG impeachment. That is depressing.
I’m gonna start saving so I can makes donations to the Congressional races next year. I think revitalizing the Congress is the most important thing, more important than who is President. That is out of our control anyway, since the nomination process is in the hands of selfish state houses and out of our control. Who knows, if somebody can make a buck off it, maybe the caususes and primaries will be moved up to Christmas 2007, so can fold them into Holiday shopping and ski season. and state marketing promotional plans. As long as the next President is not Giuliani, who is revealing himself to be true bad news from every angle, perhaps even Worse Than GW Bush, I will be glad.
Right now it looks like the Congress is going the way of the Roman Senate, a bunch of headless, gutless nothings, bought cowards, except for a plucky band of progressives and a few aging warriors (and warrioresses?, warriotrixes?) who are not numersous enough to make much difference.
Follow up on the Iraqi Army dis-banding as recently discussed here with Charles Ferguson, maker of the documentary No End In Sight.
Washington Post
Thursday, November 20, 2003
Wrong Turn at a Postwar Crossroads?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..ge=printer
It was a roomful of “Yes Men”!
They were certainly saying “yes” to Rumsfeld and Cheney.
Eureka Springs @ 172
It’s probably already all sold, simply awaiting delivery.
G’Damn!!!!!
“A major disaster is looming in northern Iraq because the wall of the Mosul Dam that holds back the Tigris river north of Mosul city is in danger of imminent collapse, a report by the Independent newspaper said on Wednesday.
Quoting experts, the newspaper said that flood waters could destroy 70% of Ninewa province and “inflict heavy damage 190 miles (300km) downstream along the Tigris.” According to the report, “This would mean heavy damage to cities such as Tikrit and Samarra and the floods could reach as far as Baghdad.”
Citing “fundamental and irreversible flaws existing in the dam’s foundation,” a recent report by the US Army Corps of Engineers indicated that the safety of the dam against a potential catastrophic collapse “cannot be guaranteed.”
Today, we had Minnesota flooding, Oklahoma flooding…now this…this is seriously serious too. Why does it strike me as interesting to hear the citation of the US Army Corps of Engineers…color me cynical…
Eureka Springs @ 172
What’s $12 billion between friends? The equipment issue is a big fat smoke screen. Color it gone no matter what they resolve to do with it.
Eureka Springs @ 172
There will probably be grounds for doubt. It’s hard to imagine the situation being stable enough over there to be assured that things went as planned, assuming there was a plan this time, of course.
Thanks, Bob. Also,an alliance does seem far more mutually beneficial than a war, especially since Sadr has an army, and Sistani doesn’t.
Eureka Springs @ 172
Our EOD and Engineers can destroy it readily, generally in place, too!!!
Great post, Siun. I was unaware of Visser’s thoughts before this. Thank you for bringing his work and words to my (our) attention. Thanks to you and Bob in HI and jackroyd @98 and many others on this thread for a most illuminating discussion. Because of dedicated people like you, I feel like I know a bit more about Iraq (and particularly, the Kurds) today than I did yesterday.
Now, if only Senator “Bankruptcy” Biden and the rest of the “liberal hawks” would listen to these wise words.
Gosh…these think tanker types sure seem to be able to reduce some tough,deeply seated ME problems down to the essential “solution” do they not?
Apply this Iraq-into-three parts “solution” to the evergreen Israeli-Palestinian conflict and see how that would go over.
Jerusalem divided? Fully separate and equally sovereign Arab Palestine and Israel?
No Israeli over-rule of Arab Palesinian air space,water rights,border control or martial activity?
Israel would not do it. Does not want to do it. Will not do it.
The Americans continue to allow that to be the case and in truth condone and promote Israeli refusal to proceed in any meaningful truly two-state solution with Arab Palestinians.
Yet then these likely very same Americans turn around and proceed to suggest three-part breakup for Iraq.
Is that not incredibly presumptuous and contemptuous on the part of American think tanker types?
These Americans then prepared/willing to float such ideas about Iraq and evidently doing so with little awareness of how unfounded such thinking is or distills to?
The Americans have little credibility anymore in the ME as is these days due to the slant/tilt the Americans have/show for Israeli takes and conduct.
It should be plainly evident that American actions taken and ongoing conduct in Iraq is not credible as is after four years plus of American ineptness, ignorance and arrogance.
Perhaps a better term for some WashDC think tanks would be stink tanks.
They surely do come up with some thinking that just plain stinks when subjected to real world tests and summary experience.
CTuttle, I just hope they get those orders to do so..)
Cliff Varnell @ 176
It is clear who was “somebody” to Slocombe (just folks inside the neo-con bubble). It is also clear that he didn’t even think of asking anyone over at the State Department. Who are they? Nobodies.
Bob in HI
eureka at 84 says-”
EZ Pass, good gawd! Why not just tattoo a bar code on every Iraki cheek and give them a little gps implants, like cattle. the pentagon can hire a new PR firm to tell the Irakis, Prada told us it was fashionable this year.
Cowboy fascist partitioning, now there is a winning idear.
Although it is interesting to note that the ISG report reincarnated by Blue Dogs and DLC lovin Senators seems to have lost ground over the last month.
The goal-post keeps moving in a circle.”
i heard a report/interview on npr recently where the troops patrolling have a new portable ‘tool’ they’re using……..does eyeprints, fingerprints and dna……yes, portable dna tests…….they use it to validate if someone belongs in a area……said it has made things better…they’re working on getting them shipped to all of the units…..scared me to death…….
same as a few years ago, right after 911, when on a holiday weekend, they started using the eye scanner on the public on staten island…a trial they said…noone said a word about it, scared me to death…….
wesgpc @ 175
It appears that only 27 house Democrats would like any netroots support.
“Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall.”
Why give some GOP actor a soundbite in the 2020’s?
No partition.
LS @ 177
All together now: “who could have predicted…”
Eureka Springs @ 185
Dang, everyone’s the pessimist around here… No hope in dope… eh??? 8-)
Teddy and Late Night are up top!
Cliff Varnell @ 176
Slocomome, a man, a plan, a canal
What a wazoo!
Who dreamed up the labor policy, Mitch McConnell in close consultation with Margaret Chao and Grover Norquist?
TeddySanFran is upstairs
shootthatarrow>>> @ 184
A woman featured on a recent Democracy Now program described Think tanker types as people paid to think by corporations that make the tanks.
Bob in HI
Only 27 to impeach AGAG … good lord!
Siun @ 196
It’s run out the clock time. It seems to me the best we can hope for is the Democrats will undo a bunch of the police-state acts of the present regime, after having first seen to their election…but it strikes me as more likely that they will want to use those powers for their own ends.
Meet the New Boss. Same as the Old Boss.
Bob Schacht @ 195
Wasn’t that Naomi Klein? I’m very much looking forward to her book.
(My version of the joke: “AEI – putting the tank in think tank since 1979!”).
RonD – that’s my guess too.
It’s gonna be a long haul revolution, eh?
thought provoking, but, imo, off the mark regarding iraq.
discussing the rape of iraq in traditional war terms is futile.
ie; while walking through the forest, i encounter a wombat.
ah, just a wombat, no worries.
me mates told me that wombats are remarkably feline in appearance, ’bout 400 lbs, with kinda yellow and dark stripes, and very shy of human contact.
oops…..
the rape of iraq is a crime.
it should be discussed and dealt with as such.
peas!
Eureka Springs @ 160
No, no… its an issue I heard about during the debate. Its like keeping the lids of those plastic olive containers.
Long Haul Revolution.
Yeah. I like that.
RonD @ 86
Sadr appears intent on participating in the partioning of Baghdad. The Mahdi militia (JAM) actually organizes the acts that “clear” previously integrated neighborhoods in Iraq, then take over and “rent out” the empty homes and apartments to refuges.
I’m not very hopeful that his leadership would lead to a “unified” Iraq.
Siun @ 93
I’d like to hear more about his “protection of minorities”. Protecting from whom? ASFAIK there’s been a general “ethnic cleansing” in areas of Baghdad that have come under Mahdi Army control.
Sadr’s tentative alliances with Sunni’s have principally been efforts to bring down Maliki’s government. That seems to be in line with his attempts to become the principal Shiite political figure, and sideline SCIRI.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00700.html
The Sadrists then establish control of the vacated homes and apartments and get paid “rent” and businesses pay “protection money”. The Mahdi Army tightly controls the distribution of food staples, fuel, and other necessities in their areas of hegemony. They are the “law”. All under the nose of the US occupiers. They don’t need to confront the latter directly.
And as the British withdraw from the South the Sadrists are rapidly taking on SCIRI. Street battles are now raging, and the SCIRI Governors are being taken out by assassination…two in the last few days.
http://english.aljazeera.net/N…..E1A8EB.htm
Sadr’s men are being trained, and served in Lebanon with Hezbollah during the Israeli invasion. Thus they have acquired increasing tactical and technical skills that place them on a par with the Iranian-trained Badr Brigades of SCIRI.
Eureka Springs @ 108
Indeed. Blow it to bits with the left over munitions.
As for the contractors…well…they should start exitting now unless the get agreements in the areas controlled by militias that THEY will protect them because those areas want/need water, electricity, etc.
Bob Schacht @ 109
There is actually closer ideological and political affinity between Iraqi Shiism and Hezbollah, than with Iran. In fact the founders of Hezbollah, Massoud and Nasrallah, were students of Sadr’s father, The Grand Ayatollah. Sadr doesn’t seem particularly attracted to being under the thumb of the Iranian clerics, or beholden to them. THAT is one of his main concerns with the clerics and military factions associated with SCIRI it seems, who fled into exile. Thus Moqtada’s appeal to the young, and those who remained behind.
Saw a few comments about the missing weapons. David Isenberg, in an article in the Asia Times, contends that the 190,000 is only the tip of the iceberg and that unaccounted for weapons involve Bosnia, the Italian Mafia and Russian arms dealer who was contracted by the Pentagon. His piece can be found at:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/M…..7Ak01.html