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	<title>Comments on: California Split</title>
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		<title>By: Jake Fegan</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-904446</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Fegan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-904446</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Easiest and most democratic solution: the candidate with the most votes wins the election.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Easiest and most democratic solution: the candidate with the most votes wins the election.</p>
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		<title>By: Praedor Atrebates</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-904326</link>
		<dc:creator>Praedor Atrebates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-904326</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It must not pass, but if it does, it WILL spend the end of the electoral college.  Why?  Because it will virtually assure that so long as there is an electoral college, the popular vote will be VERY much out of sinc with the electoral vote.  It will mean a GOPer president getting elected with a much worse popular vote spread vs his/her rival than between Bush/Gore.  Can you imagine how long the people would allow the electoral college to remain if each time there is an election the Dem wins by 100,000s of votes in the popular vote but keeps losing substantially in the electoral?  No WAY that lasts more than one or two election cycles at best.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It must not pass, but if it does, it WILL spend the end of the electoral college.  Why?  Because it will virtually assure that so long as there is an electoral college, the popular vote will be VERY much out of sinc with the electoral vote.  It will mean a GOPer president getting elected with a much worse popular vote spread vs his/her rival than between Bush/Gore.  Can you imagine how long the people would allow the electoral college to remain if each time there is an election the Dem wins by 100,000s of votes in the popular vote but keeps losing substantially in the electoral?  No WAY that lasts more than one or two election cycles at best.</p>
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		<title>By: oldtree</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-904169</link>
		<dc:creator>oldtree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-904169</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;the people of california aren’t quite a stupid as this.   The state that told their legislature what to do on numerous occasions can’t be compared to the states in this country that don’t even allow the elective voting process.   there are states that have the initiative process, and you will find that their voters are a lot more involved with the elective process than to allow such bullshit to be forced down their throats&lt;br /&gt;
    kansas or mississippi sure,  the people are told what to do.  but the idea that this is going to happen in a blue state that has seen the effects of what they have voted for?  not a chance in hell&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the people of california aren’t quite a stupid as this.   The state that told their legislature what to do on numerous occasions can’t be compared to the states in this country that don’t even allow the elective voting process.   there are states that have the initiative process, and you will find that their voters are a lot more involved with the elective process than to allow such bullshit to be forced down their throats<br />
    kansas or mississippi sure,  the people are told what to do.  but the idea that this is going to happen in a blue state that has seen the effects of what they have voted for?  not a chance in hell</p>
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		<title>By: Mike in New Zealand</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903947</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike in New Zealand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 07:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903947</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;About the time I arrived in New Zealand they voted in a radical idea: proportional representation.  It kept the party that won with 51% of the vote from claiming 100% of the victory.  Karl Rove would not like New Zealand.  The California ballot iniative is right on if, AND ONLY IF, it’s done that way for every state.  Nothing wrong with California having the same clout as Georgia, as long as Georgia has the same clout as California. Eh, mate?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the time I arrived in New Zealand they voted in a radical idea: proportional representation.  It kept the party that won with 51% of the vote from claiming 100% of the victory.  Karl Rove would not like New Zealand.  The California ballot iniative is right on if, AND ONLY IF, it’s done that way for every state.  Nothing wrong with California having the same clout as Georgia, as long as Georgia has the same clout as California. Eh, mate?</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903933</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 07:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903933</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-903053&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;GordonM @ 55&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Heh. Even when Gray Davis was Jerry “Governor Moonbeam” Brown’s deputy governor, he still looked like he’d been dead 2 weeks. I always liked Jerry. Too bad my old friends in Oakland say he really screwed it up as mayor.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Moral of the day: never date Linda Ronstadt.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Jackson Brown is still lookin’ pretty good!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-903053"><em>GordonM @ 55</em></a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>Heh. Even when Gray Davis was Jerry “Governor Moonbeam” Brown’s deputy governor, he still looked like he’d been dead 2 weeks. I always liked Jerry. Too bad my old friends in Oakland say he really screwed it up as mayor.</p>
<p>Moral of the day: never date Linda Ronstadt.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Jackson Brown is still lookin’ pretty good!</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903929</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 06:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903929</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-903036&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Eli @ 39&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-903035&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Loo Hoo. @ 38&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Don’t lets forget that Darrell Issa bankrolled the recall of Gray Davis thinking he could become governor…hee hee!  Whatever happened to Gray?  He could take a house seat maybe.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The same CA-GOP law firm was involved in that too…&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And recall that both Arnold and Mayor Riordan were called up to Cheney’s closed meetings on the “Energy Strategy” just prior to the Energy Brokers from Texas (Enron, Pioneer, etc.) conspiring to shift energy from California at the Summer peak. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Just what was Arnold doing chatting secretly with Cheney…and why won’t he discuss this? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Seems pretty clear they were actually discussing how they were going to recall Davis…USING the deregulated Energy Brokers creating a State of Emergency in California.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;ONE MORE reason Cheney refuses to reveal his records of the Energy Policy meetings.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-903036"><em>Eli @ 39</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-903035"><em>Loo Hoo. @ 38</em></a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>Don’t lets forget that Darrell Issa bankrolled the recall of Gray Davis thinking he could become governor…hee hee!  Whatever happened to Gray?  He could take a house seat maybe.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The same CA-GOP law firm was involved in that too…</p>
</blockquote>
<p>And recall that both Arnold and Mayor Riordan were called up to Cheney’s closed meetings on the “Energy Strategy” just prior to the Energy Brokers from Texas (Enron, Pioneer, etc.) conspiring to shift energy from California at the Summer peak. </p>
<p>Just what was Arnold doing chatting secretly with Cheney…and why won’t he discuss this? </p>
<p>Seems pretty clear they were actually discussing how they were going to recall Davis…USING the deregulated Energy Brokers creating a State of Emergency in California.</p>
<p>ONE MORE reason Cheney refuses to reveal his records of the Energy Policy meetings.</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903922</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 06:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903922</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-903028&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Jonathan @ 32&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;GSD at 24&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What are your predictions 20 years from now:&lt;br /&gt;
Will a repub or a dem be president?&lt;br /&gt;
Will this country be at war?&lt;br /&gt;
Will China threaten the world environment?&lt;br /&gt;
Will there be a cultural civil war in the U.S.?&lt;br /&gt;
Will GWB look good?&lt;br /&gt;
My answers to each question:  yes&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Your first question is not a yes or no question. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If China is a threat to the world twenty years from now…what did GWB do to dampen THAT threat? Recall that he has allowed the Chinese to invest billions in American financial assets, done nothing to slow the foreign debt with China, and his own family is heavily invested in Chinese corporations…do a bit of research on brothers Neil and Marvin, and Uncle Preston. Recall his wonderful face-down of the Chinese after they took down the US spy-plane…how the Chinese dismantled and studied its technology for months. And how Bush hads basically had to go to the Chinese to negotiate with North Korea.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is already a “cultural civil war” in the US…and Bush has used this rather than unify the American people to be more tolerant of “freedom”. “They hate us for our freedoms” so he does everything he can to remove those freedoms. Young people today are far more tolerant of our differences…so the extremists on the right-wing will have to lord over the vast majority…those people will continue to regard Bush as something of a demi-God that spoke with “Jesus”. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And if there is a “civil war” then it will be by THAT MINORITY against the majority…and unless we are an unDemocratic society…then the right-wing zealots will be involved in an UnConstitutional INSURRECTION. Yes! Look up INSURRECTION in the Constitution…and find out what happens.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-903028"><em>Jonathan @ 32</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>GSD at 24</p>
<p>What are your predictions 20 years from now:<br />
Will a repub or a dem be president?<br />
Will this country be at war?<br />
Will China threaten the world environment?<br />
Will there be a cultural civil war in the U.S.?<br />
Will GWB look good?<br />
My answers to each question:  yes</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Your first question is not a yes or no question. </p>
<p>If China is a threat to the world twenty years from now…what did GWB do to dampen THAT threat? Recall that he has allowed the Chinese to invest billions in American financial assets, done nothing to slow the foreign debt with China, and his own family is heavily invested in Chinese corporations…do a bit of research on brothers Neil and Marvin, and Uncle Preston. Recall his wonderful face-down of the Chinese after they took down the US spy-plane…how the Chinese dismantled and studied its technology for months. And how Bush hads basically had to go to the Chinese to negotiate with North Korea.</p>
<p>There is already a “cultural civil war” in the US…and Bush has used this rather than unify the American people to be more tolerant of “freedom”. “They hate us for our freedoms” so he does everything he can to remove those freedoms. Young people today are far more tolerant of our differences…so the extremists on the right-wing will have to lord over the vast majority…those people will continue to regard Bush as something of a demi-God that spoke with “Jesus”. </p>
<p>And if there is a “civil war” then it will be by THAT MINORITY against the majority…and unless we are an unDemocratic society…then the right-wing zealots will be involved in an UnConstitutional INSURRECTION. Yes! Look up INSURRECTION in the Constitution…and find out what happens.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903827</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 05:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903827</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;CA would only be as influential as how far it could possibly swing either way.  It would not be worth the net 15 votes, just the couple votes that would actually be at play.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CA would only be as influential as how far it could possibly swing either way.  It would not be worth the net 15 votes, just the couple votes that would actually be at play.</p>
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		<title>By: Robbinsdale radical</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903775</link>
		<dc:creator>Robbinsdale radical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 05:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903775</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;
There is a backdoor that some states are working on, where they pledge their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote… once the total number of electoral votes so pledged equals or exceeds 270.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact&quot;&gt;great plan…&lt;/a&gt; I heard a great talk about this on C-Span yesterday. It’s pure genius. I also heard several arguments that the small-state advantage is totally washed out by the elector distribution as of today. Although North and South Dakota get three each, it still doesn’t amount to anything against all-or-nothing California and New York. 99% of the the presidential campaign money goes to 16 states. I really like this plan.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
There is a backdoor that some states are working on, where they pledge their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote… once the total number of electoral votes so pledged equals or exceeds 270.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact">great plan…</a> I heard a great talk about this on C-Span yesterday. It’s pure genius. I also heard several arguments that the small-state advantage is totally washed out by the elector distribution as of today. Although North and South Dakota get three each, it still doesn’t amount to anything against all-or-nothing California and New York. 99% of the the presidential campaign money goes to 16 states. I really like this plan.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903477</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2007 04:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/17/california-split/#comment-903477</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-903473&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Mukei @ 263&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-903082&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Eli @ 84&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m totally cool with eliminating it altogether, really.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Indeed.  That’s nearly what their preferred National Popular Vote plan does:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;…[S]tates will enter into an interstate agreement to award their Electoral College votes to the candidate who wins the nationwide popular vote. The agreement will come into effect as soon as enough states join it to make up 270 or more electoral votes.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The method will make presidential elections direct and national without a Constitutional amendment, since it preserves the office of the presidential elector. It is thoroughly constitutional because states have the power under the Constitution to decide how to award their electoral votes. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;… [E]lecting the president in a single direct national election will satisfy all the criteria of a good electoral system. It will ensure majority rule, make elections nationally competitive, reduce partisan machinations, preclude contingent outcomes, and ensure that every vote counts equally.
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This seems a reasonable expedient, given the difficulty of eliminating the electoral college outright.  To do that would require a constitutional amendment, the proposal for which would probably never make it through Congress, given Republicans’ (in particular) strong desire to maintain a system they have a chance at successfully gaming.  And the only alternative to the congressional route would be to get the states to call a constitutional convention, and God help us if that ever happened.  The only precedent we have for that is 1787 when the convention threw its limited mandate out the window, scrapped the existing government and made a new one from scratch.  I wouldn’t trust either party with their hands on something that powerful.  The Republicans are too power-crazed authoritarian to do the right thing, and the Democrats are … well … as we’ve seen.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yes, I mentioned that in the comments here somewhere, and wrote about it on my own blog a while back.  I like the idea a lot, and it may be the only way to bypass the EC.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-903473"><em>Mukei @ 263</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-903082"><em>Eli @ 84</em></a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>I’m totally cool with eliminating it altogether, really.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Indeed.  That’s nearly what their preferred National Popular Vote plan does:</p>
<blockquote><p>…[S]tates will enter into an interstate agreement to award their Electoral College votes to the candidate who wins the nationwide popular vote. The agreement will come into effect as soon as enough states join it to make up 270 or more electoral votes.  </p>
<p>The method will make presidential elections direct and national without a Constitutional amendment, since it preserves the office of the presidential elector. It is thoroughly constitutional because states have the power under the Constitution to decide how to award their electoral votes. </p>
<p>… [E]lecting the president in a single direct national election will satisfy all the criteria of a good electoral system. It will ensure majority rule, make elections nationally competitive, reduce partisan machinations, preclude contingent outcomes, and ensure that every vote counts equally.
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This seems a reasonable expedient, given the difficulty of eliminating the electoral college outright.  To do that would require a constitutional amendment, the proposal for which would probably never make it through Congress, given Republicans’ (in particular) strong desire to maintain a system they have a chance at successfully gaming.  And the only alternative to the congressional route would be to get the states to call a constitutional convention, and God help us if that ever happened.  The only precedent we have for that is 1787 when the convention threw its limited mandate out the window, scrapped the existing government and made a new one from scratch.  I wouldn’t trust either party with their hands on something that powerful.  The Republicans are too power-crazed authoritarian to do the right thing, and the Democrats are … well … as we’ve seen.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, I mentioned that in the comments here somewhere, and wrote about it on my own blog a while back.  I like the idea a lot, and it may be the only way to bypass the EC.</p>
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