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	<title>Comments on: The 100-Year Struggle for Mine Safety</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/</link>
	<description>Firedoglake weblog</description>
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		<title>By: nolo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-901650</link>
		<dc:creator>nolo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 06:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-901650</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[i’m posting tonight as&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://indictdickcheney.blogspot.com/2007/08/ot-about-those-missing-utah-coal-miners.html&quot;&gt;mining brass number 4733&lt;/a&gt;,&lt;br /&gt;
from a long-ago stint as&lt;br /&gt;
a hard-rock miner. . .]&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;first — excellent piece, tula!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;next — this tragedy just claimed&lt;br /&gt;
the lives of three more miners — these&lt;br /&gt;
ones being rescue workers, in the drift. . .&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;i will wait until morning, to hear&lt;br /&gt;
c.e.o. murray’s reaction, and his&lt;br /&gt;
demeanor — but it better be pretty&lt;br /&gt;
damned contrite.  there is going to&lt;br /&gt;
be a fairly compelling scientific case –&lt;br /&gt;
from a geological/mining engineeering&lt;br /&gt;
point of view — that at 1,800 feet of&lt;br /&gt;
overburden/cover, these miners were simply&lt;br /&gt;
sent by their superiors to a depth BEYOND&lt;br /&gt;
the structural limits of such a mining&lt;br /&gt;
operation — either the pillars were too&lt;br /&gt;
thin, or the drifts were correlatively&lt;br /&gt;
too wide — but in either case, coal&lt;br /&gt;
seams are simply prone to collapse under&lt;br /&gt;
the sheer weight of 1,800 feet of overburden.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;it used to be that 1,500 feet was considered&lt;br /&gt;
dangerously “too deep” in this region — and&lt;br /&gt;
the missing six men were reportedly last known&lt;br /&gt;
to be working almost 300 feet below that.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;this is an unfolding — and nowhere&lt;br /&gt;
nearly ended — tragedy. . .&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;if you believe in a higher power, ask for&lt;br /&gt;
some “&lt;em&gt;mo jo&lt;/em&gt;” for these rescuers/miners — the&lt;br /&gt;
ones actually doing the work — and the ones&lt;br /&gt;
still missing — they’re gonna’ need it,&lt;br /&gt;
come tomorrow morning. . .&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;p e a c e&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[i’m posting tonight as<br />
<a href="http://indictdickcheney.blogspot.com/2007/08/ot-about-those-missing-utah-coal-miners.html">mining brass number 4733</a>,<br />
from a long-ago stint as<br />
a hard-rock miner. . .]</p>
<p>first — excellent piece, tula!</p>
<p>next — this tragedy just claimed<br />
the lives of three more miners — these<br />
ones being rescue workers, in the drift. . .</p>
<p>i will wait until morning, to hear<br />
c.e.o. murray’s reaction, and his<br />
demeanor — but it better be pretty<br />
damned contrite.  there is going to<br />
be a fairly compelling scientific case –<br />
from a geological/mining engineeering<br />
point of view — that at 1,800 feet of<br />
overburden/cover, these miners were simply<br />
sent by their superiors to a depth BEYOND<br />
the structural limits of such a mining<br />
operation — either the pillars were too<br />
thin, or the drifts were correlatively<br />
too wide — but in either case, coal<br />
seams are simply prone to collapse under<br />
the sheer weight of 1,800 feet of overburden.</p>
<p>it used to be that 1,500 feet was considered<br />
dangerously “too deep” in this region — and<br />
the missing six men were reportedly last known<br />
to be working almost 300 feet below that.</p>
<p>this is an unfolding — and nowhere<br />
nearly ended — tragedy. . .</p>
<p>if you believe in a higher power, ask for<br />
some “<em>mo jo</em>” for these rescuers/miners — the<br />
ones actually doing the work — and the ones<br />
still missing — they’re gonna’ need it,<br />
come tomorrow morning. . .</p>
<p>p e a c e</p>
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		<title>By: Moon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900617</link>
		<dc:creator>Moon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 21:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900617</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Leave Biden alone. His wife and baby daughter were killed and his two other kids were seriously injured in an auto vs big rig accident in 1972. The mining industry and just about every other industry from banking, trucking and tele comunications to tooth paste, toys and dog food has either been deregulated, outsourced or gone unchecked. Biden could have answered her question better but as President he will only be able to enforce laws passed by Congress and it will never change until the fat cats are voted out. I might point out, he appears to be the only one talking about a potentially workable way out of Iraq before the year 2020.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leave Biden alone. His wife and baby daughter were killed and his two other kids were seriously injured in an auto vs big rig accident in 1972. The mining industry and just about every other industry from banking, trucking and tele comunications to tooth paste, toys and dog food has either been deregulated, outsourced or gone unchecked. Biden could have answered her question better but as President he will only be able to enforce laws passed by Congress and it will never change until the fat cats are voted out. I might point out, he appears to be the only one talking about a potentially workable way out of Iraq before the year 2020.</p>
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		<title>By: Wordsmith</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900380</link>
		<dc:creator>Wordsmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900380</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-900112&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;johnSwifty @ 36&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-900105&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;fdl reader @ 30&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;OT: Tom Hartmann saying Snowjob is resigning and rumours are “two more” resignations at least are coming as well.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s gone beyond the rats; now the actual spars and knees are abandoning the sinking ship.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How many more can leave before it’s nothing but Dead Eye Dick straddling a plank, adrift at sea?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In all fairness to Tony Snow - it may have more to do with his cancer and his family. His kids aren’t all that old.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-900112"><em>johnSwifty @ 36</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-900105"><em>fdl reader @ 30</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>OT: Tom Hartmann saying Snowjob is resigning and rumours are “two more” resignations at least are coming as well.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>It’s gone beyond the rats; now the actual spars and knees are abandoning the sinking ship.</p>
<p>How many more can leave before it’s nothing but Dead Eye Dick straddling a plank, adrift at sea?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>In all fairness to Tony Snow &#8211; it may have more to do with his cancer and his family. His kids aren’t all that old.</p>
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		<title>By: N=1</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900315</link>
		<dc:creator>N=1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:02:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900315</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-900265&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Tula Connell @ 94&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-900086&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Hugh @ 16&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;So Tula, do you know if there has actually been increased collection of fines since enactment of this bill?  Because since 2001 collection of fines for violations had gone steadily down.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On a somewhat related note, I saw that PBS’ Washington Week is underwritten by the National Mining Association.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This from the Mine Workers: MSHA reports an increase in assessments and revenue since the MINER Act passed. However, the Mine Workers say companies can appeal the fines, and the challenges to the fines have increased as well. Because it takes years for these cases to get through the courts, no way to tell yet whether fine collections are increasing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Tula, your posts seem to get interrupted with breaking news much too frequently!  Just wanted to say thank you again for providing such compelling posts.  I am learning so much from you and your insights!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-900265"><em>Tula Connell @ 94</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-900086"><em>Hugh @ 16</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>So Tula, do you know if there has actually been increased collection of fines since enactment of this bill?  Because since 2001 collection of fines for violations had gone steadily down.  </p>
<p>On a somewhat related note, I saw that PBS’ Washington Week is underwritten by the National Mining Association.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This from the Mine Workers: MSHA reports an increase in assessments and revenue since the MINER Act passed. However, the Mine Workers say companies can appeal the fines, and the challenges to the fines have increased as well. Because it takes years for these cases to get through the courts, no way to tell yet whether fine collections are increasing.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Tula, your posts seem to get interrupted with breaking news much too frequently!  Just wanted to say thank you again for providing such compelling posts.  I am learning so much from you and your insights!</p>
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		<title>By: Tula Connell</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900265</link>
		<dc:creator>Tula Connell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900265</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-900086&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Hugh @ 16&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;So Tula, do you know if there has actually been increased collection of fines since enactment of this bill?  Because since 2001 collection of fines for violations had gone steadily down.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On a somewhat related note, I saw that PBS’ Washington Week is underwritten by the National Mining Association.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This from the Mine Workers: MSHA reports an increase in assessments and revenue since the MINER Act passed. However, the Mine Workers say companies can appeal the fines, and the challenges to the fines have increased as well. Because it takes years for these cases to get through the courts, no way to tell yet whether fine collections are increasing.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-900086"><em>Hugh @ 16</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>So Tula, do you know if there has actually been increased collection of fines since enactment of this bill?  Because since 2001 collection of fines for violations had gone steadily down.  </p>
<p>On a somewhat related note, I saw that PBS’ Washington Week is underwritten by the National Mining Association.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This from the Mine Workers: MSHA reports an increase in assessments and revenue since the MINER Act passed. However, the Mine Workers say companies can appeal the fines, and the challenges to the fines have increased as well. Because it takes years for these cases to get through the courts, no way to tell yet whether fine collections are increasing.</p>
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		<title>By: N=1</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900263</link>
		<dc:creator>N=1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900263</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-900143&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;katymine @ 65&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;N=1  - as a nurse who left acute care after 21 years following a job injury where I was off for 11 months working “light duty” filling out workman comp forms for my fellow workers who were injured in that 2 year period where they cut ancillary staff(Orderlies). &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And in the 3 years before I left, I lost 5 co-workers from cancer. The interesting thing is all but one worked as Pharmacy Nurses mixing IV drugs and the one who wasn’t worked on the Oncology Unit….. hmmmm &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So many times I am asked why I left nursing and my response is that nursing treated me like a dirty disposable diaper. One gets soiled and there is always another cheaper new grad nurse. [all before the critical shortage}&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Oh boy, katymine!  I’m so sorry.  The CA deaths are at least worth a call to OSHA, but the usual response is silence.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The dirty disposable diaper analogy is apt. I started working in the days before gloves, and some of my first ICU patients as a fiarly new grad were AIDS patients dying from Kaposi’s sarcoma and pneumocystis carinii pneumonias.  I was on my own - no one would even come into the cubicles - there was only one sink for 15 ICU patients (I am not making this up, although I wish it had been fiction), and I worked alone in turning, moving and caring for those young, health-appearing men while they blew out lings and died almost overnight from advanced undiagnosed AIDS. I also worked without patient lift devices, without needle guards, and without equipment that was electrically safe.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m pretty sure our experiences are the norm and not the exception. In one job, I even had to take a flashlight outside and hunt the in-ground LZ landing lights for the medevac helicopter because the hospital didn’t want to pay for a minute’s worth of extra electric bills.  Had to listen for the rotors as I crawled around the grass and get out of the way if they were already coming in before I got the en code page through the ED.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’ve taken away loaded wepons (one from a police officer who was fainintg from the prospect of getting a tetanus booster) and another who was wrestling med-evac staff and trying to get out of his restraints when the loaded gun was seen in his back pants pocket.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’ve been spit on, bitten, hit, punched, pushed, pulled, shoved, knocked down, sworn at, threatened with my license, with my life, and with ever working again - that’s why nurses simply must eventually decide to stop working as employees and come together to contract their services and work as independent practice groups. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Oh - and as a parting present - no pension or retirement benefits.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-900143"><em>katymine @ 65</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>N=1  &#8211; as a nurse who left acute care after 21 years following a job injury where I was off for 11 months working “light duty” filling out workman comp forms for my fellow workers who were injured in that 2 year period where they cut ancillary staff(Orderlies). </p>
<p>And in the 3 years before I left, I lost 5 co-workers from cancer. The interesting thing is all but one worked as Pharmacy Nurses mixing IV drugs and the one who wasn’t worked on the Oncology Unit….. hmmmm </p>
<p>So many times I am asked why I left nursing and my response is that nursing treated me like a dirty disposable diaper. One gets soiled and there is always another cheaper new grad nurse. [all before the critical shortage}</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Oh boy, katymine!  I’m so sorry.  The CA deaths are at least worth a call to OSHA, but the usual response is silence.</p>
<p>The dirty disposable diaper analogy is apt. I started working in the days before gloves, and some of my first ICU patients as a fiarly new grad were AIDS patients dying from Kaposi’s sarcoma and pneumocystis carinii pneumonias.  I was on my own &#8211; no one would even come into the cubicles &#8211; there was only one sink for 15 ICU patients (I am not making this up, although I wish it had been fiction), and I worked alone in turning, moving and caring for those young, health-appearing men while they blew out lings and died almost overnight from advanced undiagnosed AIDS. I also worked without patient lift devices, without needle guards, and without equipment that was electrically safe.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure our experiences are the norm and not the exception. In one job, I even had to take a flashlight outside and hunt the in-ground LZ landing lights for the medevac helicopter because the hospital didn’t want to pay for a minute’s worth of extra electric bills.  Had to listen for the rotors as I crawled around the grass and get out of the way if they were already coming in before I got the en code page through the ED.</p>
<p>I’ve taken away loaded wepons (one from a police officer who was fainintg from the prospect of getting a tetanus booster) and another who was wrestling med-evac staff and trying to get out of his restraints when the loaded gun was seen in his back pants pocket.</p>
<p>I’ve been spit on, bitten, hit, punched, pushed, pulled, shoved, knocked down, sworn at, threatened with my license, with my life, and with ever working again &#8211; that’s why nurses simply must eventually decide to stop working as employees and come together to contract their services and work as independent practice groups. </p>
<p>Oh &#8211; and as a parting present &#8211; no pension or retirement benefits.</p>
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		<title>By: David W. Bartoo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900233</link>
		<dc:creator>David W. Bartoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900233</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;My country, step by step, becomes a mockery of herself, poor old dear. Our myths, both overt and unspoken, shall bring about our collective demise. At some point, it may fall to us… for now our lives and our fortunes (such as they are)are hostage to evil and to greed. those who have brought us to this state, feel no shame.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I confess, however, that what has been done, in our names, shames me.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My country, step by step, becomes a mockery of herself, poor old dear. Our myths, both overt and unspoken, shall bring about our collective demise. At some point, it may fall to us… for now our lives and our fortunes (such as they are)are hostage to evil and to greed. those who have brought us to this state, feel no shame.</p>
<p>I confess, however, that what has been done, in our names, shames me.</p>
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		<title>By: Peterr</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900219</link>
		<dc:creator>Peterr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900219</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;new thread on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/padilla-jury-has-a-verdict/&quot;&gt;Padilla verdict&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>new thread on <a href="http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/padilla-jury-has-a-verdict/">Padilla verdict</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900211</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900211</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-900155&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;dakine01 @ 77&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;
Can’t believe I’m actually defending snowjob but I’d guess he’s having to cover his treatment costs himself as it would be a “pre-existing condition” that the gov’t employee insurance would not be covering.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Actually I can’t believe it either and won’t until I see evidence that Snow is incurring these costs himself.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-900155"><em>dakine01 @ 77</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>
Can’t believe I’m actually defending snowjob but I’d guess he’s having to cover his treatment costs himself as it would be a “pre-existing condition” that the gov’t employee insurance would not be covering.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Actually I can’t believe it either and won’t until I see evidence that Snow is incurring these costs himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Sally</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900187</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/16/11005/#comment-900187</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Turley says Padilla can appeal.  “Conditions of confinement were such that he became mentally incompetent.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turley says Padilla can appeal.  “Conditions of confinement were such that he became mentally incompetent.”</p>
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