Why do I get the feeling the American people are being prepared for a very long and hostile occupation of Iraq? What are the self-described “serious persons” trying to tell us?
A New York Times article Saturday highlighted the fact the leading Democratic candidates’ “withdrawal” plans all require leaving unspecified numbers of US troops in Iraq indefinitely to continue fighting al Qaeda [in Iraq], train Iraqi security forces and/or prevent either internal genocide (Edwards) or external invasions (Clinton, Obama, Biden). All of this has been apparent for months, but given all the Michael Gordon articles about the threats to Iraq posed by al Qaeda and Iran, this latest Times article seemed calculated to dispel the illusion that a Democratic President would bring most of the US forces home.
Monday’s Times lead editorial indirectly criticizes these plans while arguing, as best I can tell, that there may be no other acceptable option short of complete withdrawal, which the Times has never endorsed. After noting the British strategy of pulling back its forces and limiting their mission to training and some counter-insurgency efforts, to allow a substantial reduction in direct combat, the editorial, like the Washington Post article a week ago, declares the British phased withdrawal strategy is failing in Basra.
There simply aren’t reliable, effective and impartial Iraqi forces ready to keep the cities safe, nor are they likely to exist any time soon. And insurgents are not going to stop attacking Americans just because the Americans announce that they’re out of the fight.
In Basra — after four years of British tutelage — police forces are infiltrated by sectarian militias. The British departure will cede huge areas to criminal gangs and rival Shiite militias. Without Iraqis capable of taking over, the phased drawdown of British troops has turned ugly. The remaining British troops hunkered down in the city at Basra Palace are under fire from all directions. Those at the airbase are regularly bombarded.
And Basra should be easier than Baghdad. Most of the population is Shiite, and neither Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia nor other Sunni insurgent groups have a significant presence. Elsewhere in Iraq, where internal rivalries are overshadowed by the Sunni insurgency, sectarian civil war and rampant ethnic cleansing, a reduced American force might find itself in an even worse predicament. The clear lesson of the British experience is that going partway is not a realistic option.
George Bush once said his strategy was to lock the next President into his long term Iraq occupation plans. He apparently reasoned that if he could bury the US deeply enough in the Iraq quagmire, no one would have the stomach or wisdom to get us out. He may be right.
Of course, if the US is going to stay another 10 years in a country of resentful and warring Sunni and Shia militias and surrounded on all sides by neighbors threatening to intervene, it’s going to need a much bigger Army, one fed by a more efficient recruiting method than the all-volunteer system is proving for unpopular wars. So I suspect this trial balloon was intentional, notwithstanding the immediate denials. Countdown’s KO has more: see the video “Feeling a draft.”
Photo: AFP/DoD/HO File: The Pentagon
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Guten Morgen scarecrow.
They will draft illegal immigrants with the promise of citizenship
caw caw Scarecrow. Thanks for sharing this with us.
I, for one, am not opposed to a draft per se. I do believe that it would have to be “universal”, no avoidance because of birthright, money or colour.
The positives of a draft are that we would get people into the streets to protest the garbage out of DC and we could finally see a revolution to take back the country.
Although I did not like being chased by nixon’s dogs at least the MSM (at the time) could not avoid reporting it.
I, on the other hand, helped a lot of people get to Canada to avoid the draft and would do so again.
Good morning all.
We can’t stay. We can’t leave. But we can’t admit that the whole thing was a failure. Yes?
The words reason and Bush do not belong in the same sentence.
nomolos, i have a pair of teens at my place who will be eligible in 3 and 5 yrs.
TexBetsy @ 5
The wheel is turning and you can’t slow down
You can’t let go and you can’t hold on
You can’t go back and you can’t stand still
If the thunder don’t get you then the lightning will
Bill Maher brought up the idea on CNN’s “Larry King Live” last night, that a draft would finally get enough Americans off their asses and bring this Iraq war into nearly every living room.
Balad. The key is there.
Seems to me with a volunteer army you need to have people who are willing to serve.
At some point they will run out of “patriots” and have to resort to a draft. Or do you think there are enough trigger happy youths who will want nothing better than to take up arms for America.. my country right or wrong, I will serve if asked.
At some point the domestic situation will take such a heavy hit that the lazy Americans will drag themselves away from teevee and get their pots and pans and scream … “enough is enough”.
But we are not there yet and out protest gene is recessive. Where is the American public? Why are they so sheepish?
There was lots of talk about the meaning of the 06 vote… Is that the best they can do at democracy? When will they take their rights to have a government of, for and by the people and take it back from the military industrial complex, the mega corporations and their lobbyists and their stooges who pose as congress critters?
When?
We have the internet and anyone who can click a mouse can find the facts. What gives?
I know… they will give immigrants a pass if they go kill a gook for uncle sam… saved again.
Maybe the stock market will crash and wake up the people… Something has to.
It’s obvious to me the surge is an escalation.
And it wouldn’t surprise me if BushCo attacks Iran.
I just don’t see how this country can fight an even bigger fight.
Elliott @ 12
Stop assuming that the plan involves “winning”.
Crazy Horse @ 1
Hey, Crazy? Where are you these days? Still chasing windmills?
Hey they are following the Brave New World scenario… perpetual war… and 1984 forever. We all read about it and didn’t believe we would live through it.
We are.
Let’s face it, we needed a new enemy after the Cold War, so long term plans in the Middle East fulfills that goal.
Thanks to an indifferent public and a weak Congress, G.W.B. has won.
I imagine Bush 8 years from now, the elder stateman, advising Clinton (in her second term) on the best way to complete the transition to an all-mercenary army and calm the public about the 50,000th American troop death.
TexBetsy @ 13
Winning is defined in different ways. One way is the profit margin for a military contractor. Another is influence and control on markets (oil, energy, war supplies and services), and a fourth is on market share of building infrastructure – they keep breaking it, we keep building it.
And again, folks, the Army may be broken, but not so its sisters – Air Force and Navy. Balad is the key.
The ME is soooooooo kewl… it’s the new enemy to replace the evil communism… and they have all that oil too. Kewl… and they are sub human with bizarre beliefs… gotta stamp our that disease… kewl…
We can all get rich on this new one… kewl.
TexBetsy @ 7
Start prepping now to get them the hell outa here. We used to run a bus every Sunday night from Harvard square for young, scared, boys who did not want to kill anyone, did not want to die and were willing to leave all family and friends to go to a strange (!) country to live.
Even though I was drafted I refused to pick up a gun despite all the crap from training sergeants
and various officers. You have to tell your kids to trust their conscience and resist, resist, resist.
If no one from the Bush family is willing to serve, why should anyone? Yet another place where Bush gets a pass because no one in the media will even ask that question.
nomolos @ 4
I have to say my first reaction to that statement is that you’re too old or infirm to go yourself. And, you have no understanding of how the draft is ultimately manipulated. The poor and powerless in society always go, rather than the well-to-do and comfortably powerful. Just look around at the current leaders of this country as proof of that.
And, it would place tens of thousands of more people in the battlefield for years, to kill and be killed, before anyone sensible put a stop to it all.
Therefore, you are completely confused or conflicted about the draft. Being in favor of it and simultaneously professing to act contrary to it is hardly logical or sensible.
Forgot this required reading link – Scarecrow – are you familiar with this? It’s the playbill with the actors’ names and roles, or think of it as a listing of the winning team members.
OK really back to lurkdom, as my little Hitlers were crawling all through the threads here and through my blog last night.
SanderO @ 15
An economy that only grows for the top 10 per cent certainly would support this notion. Make people poor so that the military is the only option.
N=1 @ 18
They aren’t getting my kid. He’ll be 18 in less than 5 yrs. They can’t have him. Not for this.
SanderO @ 19
Yeppers, and the oil will pay for it all… Why it will be a walkover, mission accomplished in no time, major combat operations ended.
The snake oil has never been lathered on so thick.
SanderO @ 11
A couple of weeks ago I was sitting in the Des Moines International Airport, waiting for a flight to Chicago. I noticed about 9 or 10 young men, nervously waiting for the flight. They were all holding a packet of papers, comparing notes. All 10 of them were bound for Camp Pendelton in San Diego to begin Marine Corp basic training.
I asked them where they were from. They all were from small, rural towns in Iowa. I asked them what made them decide to join the Military. After we got past the youthful male bravado – it boiled down to a financial decision. These kids had no means for college. No good job prospects and Uncle Sam was offering a 10,000 dollar bonus for completing the right type of training – Recon!
The Army is offering a 20,000 dollar quick deployment bonus. If bribery is no longer working, the draft is the only option this President has left.
Poor Iraqis. It’s gonna be a long and winding road to extract the US from their bosom. But like growing oak trees, the sooner we start, the sooner we see some results.
Scarecrow,
would we really bomb Iran?
anangryoldbroad @ 25
My nephew is in the army. May be hard to talk my son into something else.
Elliott @ 30
Requires qualification. If it were up to Cheney, yes.
Thunderbird @ 9
I agree. Yet, as the mother of 2 sons in their 20s, I pray it doesn’t happen.
We now know that hundreds of thousands of weapons are illegally imported into Iraq. How can the Mafia, international arms dealers, Iraqi government “officials” and probably Doug Feith, get away with this? How can all the electronic surveillance, spy satellites, spy aircraft, and so on, fail to discover this? How can the military and Petraeus, who was commanding Iraqi training, have failed. How many of our soldiers and Iraqis will become casualties from these weapons?
Incredibly, these weapons are being supplied to the “insurgents”. There is one obvious answer to this critical failure. The Bushies are behind these weapons deals one way or another.
It’ our grand children’s tax dollars at work!
Someone is getting off on all that oil.
The army recruiters are criminals, predators and almost child molestors.
if the Iranian army is a terrorist organization, is the Iranian gov’t a terrorist organization? and if that is the case are nations trading with Iran going to have their business accounts frozen?…
montag @ 22
Just my point, and I have been there and done that. I am a vet (but never with a gun).
Frankly the people would be in the streets before any of them could get to the battlefield
Nope neither confuse or conflicted. I am opposed to any and all military service, I am a confirmed and absolute peacnik. But I do believe that there has to be some universal movement to take back the country and I believe that trying to institute a draft.. as long as it WAS universal.. would be a great catalyst.
Sorry you misread.
Solai @ 33
As a 25 year-old man with no wife or children who is not the eldest-born son, I am praying as well.
montag @ 32
Well, all the neocons think it’s a great idea. Congress is not demanding we put on the brakes, and Bush has nothing to lose. I think we’re relying on sensible people in the Pentagon realizing that they have 160,000 troops in a very vulnerable position.
When al-Maliki visited Iran, last week, it wouldn’t suprise me that part of the discussions behind the scenes was about what the Iraqis would do if the US attacked their friends in Iran. Bush must have been thinking about that when he lectured al Maliki on how the Iranians were not playing a “constructive” role in Iraq.
Bush will be gone in 18 months. Iran will always be next door to Iraq, and I assume Shia on both sides of the border can look at a map.
Frank33 @ 34
Hey along with those weapons, let’s fly over a few pallets of $100 bills to spread around… You know for the “reconstruction” ;)
Scarecrow
There are a series of posts and comments at Democracy Arsenal, of which the most recent is here , kicked off by Glenn Greenwald’s attack on the “serious” foreign policy establishment. The site is set up by the National Security Network, and looks to be the out-of-office breeding grounds for democratic party hopefuls for foreign policy positions:
The group is set up by Rand Beers, and the leader on the blog site is Suzanne Nossel, who has a most interesting background.
Not only are the posts interesting, the comments are helpful, particularly, I think, in the one I linked.
Great post. Scarecrow
My brother is a Canadian citizen, he emigrated during Vietnam.
We have 2 20 somethings who wont be drafted but I wonder if the US can financially last long enough to support this endless war
nomolos @ 37
I didn’t misread. But, I do read history. The last time, that sort of thinking took seventeen years to fix, 58,000 American lives and 300,000 seriously wounded, along with the lives of two million Vietnamese.
Some solution.
If you think it would create some miraculous turnaround in events today, you weren’t paying attention the last time….
masaccio @ 41
The group is set up by Rand Beers, and the leader on the blog site is Suzanne Nossel, who has a most interesting background.
Not only are the posts interesting, the comments are helpful, particularly, I think, in the one I linked.
Thanks for the link. Greenwald was lamenting the foreign policy establishment and how it seems to universally accept American hegemony as necessary and good.
Is anyone surprised that the Ds are too chicken to get out of Iraq?
So the “leading Democratic candidates” turn out to be followers, in every sense, of the most clueless and destructive person to run this country since King George III blew it for Britain. If this country is to come back to its senses, the leadership will have to improve on this. And if any of them truly care about the Americans and Iraqis who are caught up in this pointless calamity, they are going to have to do some basic thinking about how to stop doing wrong.
Let’s take the points from the Times one at a time, leaving US troops to:
1. Continue fighting al Qaeda [in Iraq]. How would they know? Can anyone tell me how we are identifying and targeting al Qaeda in Iraq now? No one has a satisfactory answer. We don’t know who or where they are unless they tell us, and we never will.
2. Train Iraqi security forces and/or prevent either internal genocide (Edwards). Train them in what that they do not already know or that they cannot learn from other Iraqis? Is there a new, high-tech cure for internal genocide that requires extensive training? Are the weapons and techniques especially complex? Or are we hoping that, given enough training, we can finally get them to behave how we want them to? If the Iraqis can’t do this and we have also failed, what will change in the years to come?
3. Train Iraqi security forces and/or prevent external invasions (Clinton, Obama, Biden). The Iraqis used to be capable of fending off external invasions? Are they now dependent on US troops to defend themselves from their neighbors? If U.S. troops cannot unify the country internally, what role can they play in preventing an outside invasion?
The emerging Democratic “strategy” reads like nonsense. If none of the candidates is capable of talking these vague intentions through to their logical conclusions, they aren’t qualified to lead this country out of the mess that many of them had a role in creating.
The simple message is “bend over – again!”
We elected democrats to stop the war.
They turned into turncoats – “Republican Lite”.
Now they are prepping you so they can do it again.
more fuckery: Iran’s Revoultionary Guard Labeled Terrorists by Bush
So now that they are terrorists, we can go after ‘em, eh?
TiredFed @ 48
Sure sounds like it.
There will be no long war without re-institution of the draft. I don’t believe that is possible, as no likely President has the political clout to make it happen. It was hard enough for Roosevelt in 1940. To reopen the question of universal military service will be to open the question why it is necessary. This means talking in public about the American imperial mission. Talking about in public to Americans means talking about it to the rest of the world. You see where I’m going. A draft intended to ensure American domination of the middle east is diplomatically unsustainable. It would almost guarantee an anti-American coalition of the Europeans and the Russians to prevent what they would rightly regard as a power grab.
I don’t think it’s going to happen. What is more crucial for those of us who oppose the war and any extension of it is to make sure that we don’t get blamed for the ultimate defeat. Defending oneself against ‘weakness of will’ theories that the Neocons espouse is like proving a negative. Impossible to say that staying a little longer wouldn’t work. It’s the Cas*no addict’s logic.
If it comes to a draft we have to make sure there’s a debate. No midnight compromises.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
SanderO @ 11
Just because they don’t share your world view does not mean everyone who joins the military is a “trigger happy youth”.
What’s the State Department got to say about the Iranian Guard? I’ve missed it if it’s been covered.
It’s about time we spent more attention on the “homeland” bridges, tunnels, rails, power grid, etc. and more time developing our own young people. The cost of training the Iraqi army/police would go a long way in training teachers and students in the skills that would benefit us here.
‘Attention! Your attention, please! A newsflash has this moment arrived from the Malabar front. Our forces in South India have won a glorious victory. I am authorized to say that the action we are now reporting may well bring the war within measurable distance of its end. Here is the newsflash —’
smapdi @ 54
“We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia. Eurasia is our ally. Eurasia has always been our ally.”
eCAHNomics @ 45
Interesting comment. We all know Cheny went in with no intention of ever leaving: permanent bases & billion dollar embassy & “green zone”. These investments have already been made.
Part of the problem with any viable Iraq solution is the Bush White House. If a Democrat elected after Bush thinks they can find a solution that will reduce violence or produce the appearance of stability and “pay” off” the investment… They would be hard pressed not to want to take advantage of the strategic position. Even if it means keeping some troops. That’s just a fact.
But if it happens with a Democrat in charge, the cons will scream it’s a “failure”… Wait and see, and stock up on the popcorn.
Elliott @ 52
somehow, I don’t think State would be in favor of this, but then, who listens to them these days? This is more Cheney policy – label them terrorists so we can chase them back across the border and into Iran (hot pursuit). They plan to announce this new policy before the UN meets in September.
TiredFed @ 57
Rolling out a new product just after Labor Day….
This issue led to the most interesting discussion I saw at YKos, Taylor Marsh and Digby.
Taylor’s point was the one I’ve been making in comments at various places for some time now. There is no Iraqi national defense force. There is no air power. There is no armor. There is no logistical capability. There is no functioning command and control structure. They are surrounded by mutually hostile countries, all with interests in some area of Iraq. The US can’t simply pull out. The civil war would be long, bloody and while the ultimate consequence would seem to be most likely a Shi-ite autocracy, it’s impossible to know.
Digby’s response was, essentially, that this was all true three years ago. If anything, the expected post-withdrawal environment is worse than it was then, with the middle class largely gone, and sectarian lines drawn more deeply. Continuing to take turns attacking one sectarian group after another will not solve any of the difficulties Taylor was citing.
This leaves democratic candidates for president in a very difficult spot, because they have to support withdrawal, but they also have to be aware of the scenario Taylor described–which would leave the next president and his or her party to blame for the resulting conflagration. This conflagration could easily spread across the middle east,states which are mostly governed by leaders who are mostly unpopular.
So, not to put too fine a point on it, I think the presidential candidates are all lying about their plans when they give their 30 second sound bite answers. I think they all buy into the prevailing thinking in Washington, which is a permanent occupation by about 50,000 troops.
Nobody wants to say that out loud, including our feckless media. (Jay Carney conceded to me in a side conversation that this was the prevailing Beltway view.) We really need to confront this issue, and get some attention paid to these plans. The US will never be able to get out unless these issues are confronted and dealt with.
great post scarecrow, I hit on this yesterday
it seems the neo fascists in the pnac plan for unending war is comming to fruition and unless we make the public aware they WILL be succesfull
they are actually talking about some kind of “ten year occupation” and even THAT is understated with some disclaimers like “about ten years”
and it’s bizzare the democrats aren’t ALL OVER THESE MILITARY MORONS
this president GUARANTEED a quick engagement, they GUARANTEED little investment
AND WE KNOW AS A FACT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN DOING WHATEVER IT CAN TO SADDLE ADMINISTRATIONS IN THE FUTURE WITH A SITUATION THAT MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO LEAVE
looK, I don’t have the link, maybe someone else can come up with it, but this has been reported not too long ago;
thhat the president intended to make it impossible for the next administration to leave Iraq
we need to get to that link, we need to provide that proof
MAYBE we can inocculate ourselves from the SICK plans of the pnac but time is short
WE CANNOT ALLOW THE MANIACS IN THE PNAC TO SUCCEED
“George Bush once said his strategy was to lock the next President into his long term Iraq occupation plans. He apparently reasoned that if he could bury the US deeply enough in the Iraq quagmire, no one would have the stomach or wisdom to get us out. He may be right.”
If HRC is our next president this will happen. It will be seamless.
Raven,
Not everyone who embarks on a military war is a trigger happy grunt. But the ones being recruited are more than willing to kill whomever they are told to. You don’t question rank.
We seriously need to downsize the us DOD and get off the attack posture and empireRus world view.
jim oconnor @ 61
that’s what I’m talking about, we need to find that link and go viral
WE NEED TO INOCULATE THE PUBLIC FROM THEIR LUNACY
Anyone notice how quickly we managed to blame AQ for the latest insurgent mass-bombing/killing yesterday? Took ‘em all of an hour or so to issue their conclusion. We must have some darn good invesigators :)… or there’s a little form with an autoblame key on snowjob’s PC:
On *date*, *insert bad thing*. We have determined that *press 1 for AQ* *press 2 for Iran* *press 3 for Democrat Congress* *press 4 for Hillary Clinton* *press 5 for extremist blogosphere* was responsible.
One might actually miss the good ‘ole days when they had to torture somebody before they could issue a press statement blaming AQ.
off to work
c u L8tr
If these screwups won’t serve why should any other person’s child serve? Maybe we should just have a draft for those who are gung-ho on this travesty we call the “Iraq War”?
One should not be surprised that this would be a long war. President Bush envisaged anywhere between a thirty and a hundred year war to eradicate Islamo-Fascism. And no, you don’t need a draft. Monetary and private incentives, along with recent advances in robotics and automation, will supply the firepower. There is no need for a Kent State to deal with the involuntary servitude of a draft. Most Conservatives wouldn’t go for it either; they remember Vietnam too, and will not stand for losing that way again.
N=1 @ 23
Are you able to capture their IP addys? I’d start reporting them to their ISP’s if you’re able to trace them.
If you have comments enabled, set them to moderated.
And if they are really getting to be excessive, contact your state AG’s office; along with stalking, tell them you’re worried about ID theft if they’re able to pinpoint you.
Keep records and be sure to save a copy off your PC to another location.
It’s a hassle, but they can be dealt with.
TiredFed @ 48
more fuckery: Iran’s Revoultionary Guard Labeled Terrorists by Bush
So now that they are terrorists, we can go after ‘em, eh?
Time for Congress to get their asses back to work – now. I think the Bush admin has changed its mind, and decided that August is the *perfect* time to roll out a new
productwar.spinoza @ 2
This is basically what the Roman Empire did.
perris @ 63
Yeah… Go Viral…;)
bookwoman @ 66
Never happen. Ask Mr. “Five Deferments” Cheney.
That’s always the problem with any sort of conscription.
Thirty years from now, all those self-important shits will have avoided this war, and will be plotting the next one….
TexasEllen @ 53
Yes — it’s called an “opportunity cost” and I talk about that in the next thread.
Knut Wicksell @ 50
not without a
pearl harbor911 type event.which it does appear my government is trying very hard to provoke.
….
and i was feeling a bit hopeful this morning… until reading this post. i fear scarecrow’s right… it may be hard for
LBJthe D presidential candidates to get us out ofvietnamiraq, for fear of being labeled as the person/party who lost the war.Why does an Iraq have to exist? Why can’t these people settle up their scores and make their own borders. Why is their mess or craziness OUR problem?
If the entire world wants to help out… and if asked.. then they should help them sort out their borders.
Let the Kurds have their state… Let the Shia have their’s or go with Iran and let the Sunni have theirs. Who cares?
Oh I forgot… it’s the oil.
TiredFed @ 57
I didn’t think anybody listened to State much anymore, either.
And add in all the weapons sales and deals we’ve been strewing around lately.
It’s obviously MADNESS!
why can’t everybody see that?
quake @ 69
Not illegals, but they kind of already do this… they promise Philippino and Guatemalan nationals citizenship if they enlist for 5 yr billets. Our country outsources war.
eCAHNomics @ 45
They aren’t chicken. That just not the right question. The right question is what is motivating Congress not to take action to get the US out?
The answer is here.
Would someone refresh my swiss-cheese memory and tell me who the CA congresswoman is who responded that she had to vote for the military contractors needs in her district over the needs of her voting constituents? Links to that exchange? Thanks-
SanderO @ 62
I have no problem with your position in terms of “getting off the attack posture”. It has been, and always will be, fundamental to military training for troops to follow orders. There is now a component that stresses “legal” orders but I submit to you that people in the military damn well better be prepared to kill.
N=1 @ 78
Loretta Sanchez.
Louise Slaughter???
montag @ 43
You answer nomolos better than I could have here and @22. I’m sure that nomolos is against the war, but I think he’s unwittingly making the same perverse, warmongering argument that has been fashionable among “liberal hawks” for a long time. He’s in good company, though: Charlie Rangel notoriously made this same foolish argument as a kind of political demonstration.
quake @ 70
Which was successful for more than a thousand years. It’s a winning formula as long as you don’t grant the citizenship to the enemy.
Rayne @ 68
Some, yes, and dumb enough to do it from work, but “work” places are Columbia Health Care and other Fristian bastions of right wingnuttery. Also have involved several state boards of nursing and medicine – so you can figure out the backgrounds of some of these folks. I moderate all comments, but still they are escalating.
I am sure that this exchange will be mentioned by the end of the day in their cess pool.
I think the military needs to think in terms of DEFENDING our shores… not securing our interests which are oil and corporate interests.
Everyone will defend themselves. What the USA DOD is not defense… it’s attack attack attack. Sorry Trex
jayakroyd at 59: yes, that’s the discussion I’m tapping into. Carney’s view seems to be prevalent, but no one says it out loud.
N=1 @ 78
Loretta Sanchez
jayt @ 69
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ari_Fleischer
Remember Ari selling the war? He said something on Air Force One to the effect that summer was the best news cycle to start hostilities.
janda @ 24
I see that happening around us in our own neighborhood. It’s so sad.
Morning Scarecrow & Dawgs.
Thank you for this post. Depressing, but who ever said we had to be happy-go-lucky?! Aint in the stars for the forseeable future, thanks to the booooshcrowd & enablers.
Did anyone else catch creepy w00ls*y interview last night? Grab for yer garlic necklace kids. They’ve let him out into the light again to scare the bejeebers out of us yet agin. Talkin’ absolute need to b*mb Irn rather than let them go nukulur. those eyes, those ears – i keep expecting him to levitate and whoosh away suddenly. evil…
i do believe he just undid all of Karen Hughes’ fine diplomatic work with that one interview…
a crying shame… no wonder rover was choking up, leaving all his best buddies…
N=1 @ 78
Sanchez.
newtonusr @ 87
Thanks so much! I amended my story to use that as an examplar. Boy are you manly foul-mouthed fem bloggers fast and accurate!
quake @ 70
speaking of rome (from the finacial times):
N=1 @ 90
I can’t recall a time, until now, when I would have been proud to be caled “Fem-Anything”.
LibertyLee @ 67
I’m really looking forward to those robots being able to tell the difference between a loyal vs disloyal, militant versus peaceful, pro-American vs anti-American Shia, Sunni, Kurd or that minority sect that got blown up yesterday. Some robot. War will be so much easier. Do you understand how insane this sounds? And how insane it is to talk about a 30-100 year war? Or to think it would be a good thing?
I don’t think you’ve ever been in a war.
Another difficulty is that the administration has said, over and over again, that it is promoting democracy in the middle east, especially in Iraq.
The administration, and the rest of the Beltway insiders, also expect Iraq to be a US client state, more or less indefinitely.
These two elements are mutually inconsistent. It’s impossible to imagine a scenario where a government that was representative of the Iraqi people would also support providing military bases constructed in opposition to Iran’s government, and in support of Israel. I also mentioned this to Carney. His reply was “That’s your opinion.” I wasn’t smart enough to reply, as I should have, with something like “Yeah, and it’s also my opinion the US won’t elect a 35 year old Muslim woman as president in my lifetime.”
The point is that we are pursuing chimerical foreign policy goals. That pursuit seems to be shared by all the Serious Foreign Policy professionals that Atrios has been deriding lately, regardless of party affiliation or media branding of their think-tank’s position on the political spectrum.
This is a very serious problem, because it is not being confronted by, as far as I can tell, anybody.
As with the withdrawal question, the alternatives are all unacceptable, so the goals are just restated, and somehow, like Mr Micawaber, we are hoping that something will turn up.
It is this mindset, I believe, that will leave the US in an indefinite quagmire unless someone, somehow, somewhere forces the issues onto the table.
But right now, it is completely, utterly FUBAR. Nobody wants to say so. Because there is no path, and no possible good outcome, there is tremendous pressure to remain in stasis.
Late Breaking News
Dan in Canada @ 36
The Americans may want to think long and hard about declaring the entire army of a nation to be a terrorist organization – you know, precedent and all. Because just at the moment it would be hard to beat the US army as a perpetrator of terror.
On proxy wars:
Remember the Star Trek with the war fought was essentially a computer war game but the losers had to sacrifice x number of citizens when their side lost the battle?
raven @ 95
The focus has been on the huge number of deaths and wounded, but some of the articles also mention that another key bridge near Baghdad was destroyed, further restricting the ability of US/Iraq military being able to quickly move troops around the map. Looks more like former Iraq/Saddam era army — the guys who were disbanded and left unemployed and who raided the stockpiles of munitions before the US thought to secure them, thanks to Rumsfeld, et al.
Scarecrow @ 94
You’re phrasing reminds me of how last year they were explicitly broaching the idea of another “Thirty Year War”. You might remember op-eds by David Brooks and some vile little neocon speck who thankfully disappeared by the name of David Rothkopf in the Washington Post. Aside from the blithe murderousness of the the thoughts, their historical illiteracy was just as hair raising: the Thirty Years War was a meaningless series of campaigns among mercenary gangs with religion as the ostensible cause.
sorry to go on at such length, but one more thing.
Speaking, again at YKos, with xyz*, he made the argument that getting sucked into a discussion about what would happen after a withdrawal and so on and so forth would be a mistake. Rather, he said, we should start pulling troops out as soon as we can, and keep on doing it for as long as we can–that if the US doesn’t start drawing down forces, then it can never finish.
There is merit to this argument. But it also relies on a sort of willful suspension of disbelief.
The administration has done nothing to work towards an independent, self-sufficient Iraq. I haven’t heard any plans from any democrats for doing that either, other than Richardson’s rather half-baked plan of a a regional security agreement. Even if the toothpick were to come out clean on such a plan, it seems very unlikely to me that such an agreement would be reached between four such disparate players as Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Riddle:
We cross the seas, your oil to seize
We bomb your town, make you kneel down
With DU particles we defile your air
Our troops are expendable, We don’t care.
Who are we?
OT:
Anyone catch this from RawStory? Link
Looks like George is allowing Law Enforcement access to the Government Spy Satellites. Access that was previously only given to Nasa and US. Geological agency for scientific purposes.
Wow, thanks Democratic leaders for allowing George Bush to spy on us. (FISA) I hope you are proud.
This has all been calculated to blow up in the face of a Democratic president, so they can spend the next generation blaming him/her for “losing” Iraq.
TiredFed @ 48
See Scarecrow’s prior post. Hard to believe the Dems didn’t see this coming and passed the “enabling resolution” practically unanimously. The idea that this administration would seek a “meaningless” resolution is absurd – they never do anything without some kind of return on investment (they’re rich Rethugs, after all). So the only question is whether it’s propaganda or something they’ll actually use. Dems decided propaganda and they appear to be wrong.
nomolos @ 37
If the draft is indeed what gets people out on the streets, I am all for it. The one thing I fear is death in the streets. I don’t think police these days will be too kind in breaking up the protests.
jayackroyd @ 95
I think you’re right all over.
brendan @ 82
Yeah, I know, his is a political stance. But, the reality is that a draft enables the continuance of war. Hell, there are hundreds of thousands of White Russians and Georgians in this country because they were escaping conscription in 1900-1915, and no one here said, “hey, you have to go back and ‘fight for your country.’”
It’s a damned hard lesson for this country to learn, but it had no business doing what it did in Iraq (and, when the real reasons come out, in Afghanistan, as well). The army’s going to get very beat up, but adding more raw recruits to that meat grinder will only perpetuate everyone’s misery, and proportionally increase the death and destruction.
Just like Vietnam. *sigh*
SanderO @ 85
Precisely. When was the last time the US fought a purely defensive war?
Joe Klein @106:
“If the draft is indeed what gets people out on the streets, I am all for it. The one thing I fear is death in the streets. I don’t think police these days will be too kind in breaking up the protests.”
I can’t overstate how perverse this reasoning is. Right, once they start drafting our kids, then we’ll really have them where we want them…
Scarecrow @ 99
Deadenders?
Access to the high-tech surveillance tools would, for the first time, allow Homeland Security and law-enforcement officials to see real-time, high-resolution images and data, which would allow them, for example, to identify smuggler staging areas, a gang safehouse, or possibly even a building being used by would-be terrorists to manufacture chemical weapons. (my bold)
Mmmm,possibly even a building – mmm like an individual’s home? Haven’t we already heard many many times about DEA and FBI agents kicking down doors in homes and apartments…and getting it WRONG?
http://online.wsj.com/article/…..tors_picks
Sacanagem @ 104
Do you ever read a blog called “The Cunning Realist”? This is what he says about that, “Whoever sits in the Oval Office on Inauguration Day 2009 is going to own Iraq just as Nixon owned Vietnam after 1968. To be sure, the extent of that ownership — in both the public’s mind and the history books — will depend on what happens in Iraq after 2008. But those hoping for a dramatic change in policy may be disappointed. Occupations tend to be self-perpetuating. And remember, Nixon had huge anti-Communist credibility but still felt compelled to prove his toughness once in office. If Hillary wins, will she have any less to prove as a Democrat and a woman?”
N=1 @ 91
take care! y’hear? ;->
raven @ 110
Ah, and there are only “a few deadenders.”
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 113
Ding
Scarecrow @ 99
Yes, I noticed the thing about the bridge. And it seems like there have been a lot of bridges taken out. How many avenues are now open for US soldiers to leave Baghdad should they wish/need to. Could end up like the remaining Brits in Basra or wherever they are – only more so.
montag @ 108
There’s also this fallacious premise in the argument that they would institute a broad, “democratic” draft. Well, of course they wouldn’t do that. As other commenters have said, illegal immigrants would be the optimal pool of draftees.
“I think the military needs to think in terms of DEFENDING our shores… not securing our interests which are oil and corporate interests.
Everyone will defend themselves. What the USA DOD is not defense… it’s attack attack attack. Sorry Trex
Precisely. When was the last time the US fought a purely defensive war?”
What a concept. You mean like protecting the US on 9-11-01?
Scarecrow @ 115
Yea, and after Tet 68 there were only a few VC left. “And it’s the same old song, with a different beat. . . “
May I ask your indulgence on one more thread — all in the same series.
brendan @ 110
Brendan:
I know it is not logical, but what else is gonna end our participation in the mess that is Iraq? Do you really think Hillary will? She’s as beholden to the military-industrial complex as the Decider. Who do you think funds Brookings(home of Pollack and O’Hanlon)? Who is one of Hillary’s biggest backers?
I was for a draft when I thought it would end the war. A draft now would secure the Escalation.
Adie @ 114
Thanks, Adie. I may be goin’ down, but I’m goin’ writing all the way….
LibertyLee @ 67
Liberty, nice to hear from you. As usual you are so wrong. Specifically, Kommander Guy does not “envision” anything. But he does understand war profiteering. His grandpa worked for the Nazis, and made lots of money.
But “Islamofascist”, really? Fascism of course began with Mussolini, you know what country he was from? (Clue, not an Islamic country.) Since you all know so much, this is a 30 to 100 year war, why do you not know the basic fact of military inteligence? Where are they? How many of them are there? 200? 2000? 20,000. How do they find time to watch CNN?
But your most hilarious comment is the Money and Robots will win the war! Of course the American dollar is sinking faster than John McCain. But also haven’t you seen I Robot?
jayackroyd @ 101
It doesn’t rely on “willful suspension of disbelief”. It relies on a humble acknowledgement that we Democrats, much less the Bush administration, have no predictive ability about Iraq. Voters already heard about a supposed “Plan” from Kerry; they have stopped listening to this mumbo-jumbo and just want out.
Why would we trust the Pentagon folks when we can’t even trust them to film a huge plane flying into their building. With all those security cameras, satellites and all. Give me a break. Until we know why there is not public footage, we will continue to be shammed. The cart is way in front of the horse. Many people seem to care about the lack of Pentagon attack footage. Those who do are met with the same defamation as those who are against the war. Any thing seem fishy?
This is distressing. As I see it, the only answer is for the 2008 (Dem?) President to immeidately pull all forces out of Iraq, initiate diplomatic talks with countries in the region, issue formal apologies to the people of Iraq, and most importantly bring war crimes indictiments against Bush, Cheney, Rice and many others from the Bush administration.
None of that will happen, I know. That’s why I probaby will not be voting in 2008.
If we stay in Iraq for another decade (or another century, as McCain recently suggested), none of it will matter. The U.S. hegemony that these clowns hope to preserve will have gone the way of the buggy whip.
Iraq’s energy reserves will be useless to us. The economy will have collapsed under the weight of the military. Global power will have shifted. We will be seen as the fools packing sand in some Third World backwater while the power players move forward.
Foreign news services such as the BBC are already commenting on the U.S. in the past tense.
I really don’t think people realize where we’ve gotten ourselves under George Bush. The real magnitude of the disaster, and the deadend road we’re on.
MayDaze @ 104
see also kagro x’s post:
N=1 @ 82
Then they really need to learn more about the internet, that IP addresses are just like telephone numbers and can be traced right back to the desk and login of the individuals.
Scarecrow,
Please, please expunge the word “War” from your thinking about our presence in Iraq. It is an Occupation.
Unless all of us, Democratic, Republican and Independent, who are against the ridiculous “adventure” (whether we were for or against te initial invasion), continually hammer against the Occupation we are reducing the chances of success at weakening the Bush/Cheney position.
If at every opportunity “They” are pulled up and told to use the right word, ‘Occupation’ we are reducing their chances of their emoting about War!
I have been in favor of a draft for many years. First and foremost, national service is good for the nation and it is good for the citizenry. There is a huge gulf now between the haves and have nots. They have almost no common bond and share no experiences. I think this is a partial cure for Edwards “Two Americas”. The disadvantaged get work experience and self-discipline and the advantaged get a taste of real life.
Second there are certainly jobs that need doing, a la the ’30s CCC, low tech, high muscle things.
Third our current military needs help. If we don’t have the guts to end the mission, then we owe it to the volunteers to send help. We must do one or the other.
As an unintended consequence, it may help end the war.
The draft may be a random lottery, as I knew (#23), but it must be inescapeable. No deferments permitted at all. None. If your number comes up, you go.
Maybe reward volunteers with choice of training, or assignments, or an extra stripe. Then fill out the roster with draftees.
Used to be that most everyone had common experiences, ie, the military. Now not so much.
“Why would we trust the Pentagon folks when we can’t even trust them to film a huge plane flying into their building. With all those security cameras, satellites and all. Give me a break.”
Bingo.
Putting aside their currupt tendencies, these simply are very overrated people.
Elliott @ 123
Exactly. Nothing like an assured source of soldiers to keep a war going. No soldiers, no war – at least not on the present scale.
Except there are still lots of soldiers – remember those 730 or so American bases in over 130 countries? I think they are still there.
jayackroyd @ 59
I think this buys into the standard war hawk argument, which stokes alarm about the consequences of leaving, while assuming we can prevent those consequences (and not contribute to them) if we stay. (And yes, this is clearly Beltway CW now.) As the situation continues to not improve, our best-case scenario is that our forces continue to keep a lid on the civil war, and our worst case scenario is that the regional conflagration occurs anyway with our troops in the middle of it.
Couple this with the fact that the Bush Administration has been cannibalizing our military in order to keep the war going and avoid admitting their failure, and it cannot continue. I’m inclined to think that some of the candidates have foreign policy advisors capable of recognizing these facts, and are capable of understanding that the Republicans are going to try to blame us no matter what happens.
The only course that’s in our national interest is to try to get out, and I’m actually more inclined to think the candidates are lying about how many troops they’ll keep there (because they want to look moderate and “strong” to the general electorate) than that they’re lying about how many they’ll pull out.
Morning, all! I don’t know if this got addressed further down, but seeing two comments near the top about drafting immigrants: the military already has a history — back at least through WWI — of granting naturalization (a step toward citizenship) and then later citizenship to people who enlisted. A few years ago, Bush signed legislation to make citizenship immediate on enlistment. So that option’s already there. (References: linky and linky, and linky)
The thing that bothers me is the amount of construction we’re doing over there — to put together compounds from which we could conceivably sit and control key parts of Iraq for decades more. That speaks of a far different plan than anyone really hints at publicly. (linky)
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 122
The draft will not end our participation in the mess; it will lengthen it. I am a pessimist and believe our foreign policy is completely impervious the popular will; as pertains to foreign policy our system of government is empire, not republican democracy. That said, there is one success the public, led by the left, have had in the past thirty years: not allowing a draft.
It’s a grim way to look at things, but by resisting politically, we won’t stop the war politically, but we will hopefully make it increasingly impossible to enlarge the war. Ultimately we’ll be broken military and financially by the rest of the world.
George Orwell was more prophetic than he knew. All it took was some idiot in charge with a “gut” feeling about what to do with his life (and in the process everyone elses).
You know what they say about old bold pilots that drive by the “seat of their pants” (that “gut” feeling)? There are no old bold ones.
theWalrus @ 128
I understand your pain. Still, even if you do not vote for a democrat, it is more important to vote against any Republican in the ‘08 cycle. It important to keep voting against the GOP until they purge the neocons from their leadership. So please vote.
With respect and kindness.
My country has violated the “social contract” — that is, betrayed us — too many times to count now. A draft would be, for me, the final betrayal.
To those who long for a draft because they think it will motivate people to rise up, think again. It will indeed motivate people, but many of them will rise up and leave the country, thus ceasing the political fight.
I will be one on them. I will not allow my child to even register for a draft. The government is stealing my freedom, my dignity, my pride, my money, my safety and security, and my country. They can have my child only over my dead body.
And I’m not alone — I know many parents who will be right alongside me.
Toby Wollin @ 112
I am also thinking of anti-war groups meeting in a person’s home, say….
New one upstairs, surprised no one’s said anything yet…
Frank33 @ 125
You must have missed the Robotic Warfighting display last week in Washington. The leading developers of software and hardware for robotics were showing the warfighting capabilities of automated devices. Some of the finest intelligence has been gathered by Predator drones which has resulted in the capture or killing of many of Al Qaeda. And the nice thing about them is that if you lose one, you don’t lose your warfighter operator.
The President and his advisers are smarter than they have been given credit for. They know there are a billion Muslims out there, and some are indeed in Italy, but most are in the Middle East and many are here. This is a long war, to be fought with overt AND covert means.
Scarecrow @ 94
I believe it was called the Crusades the last time. What should we call it this time (and for the next thousand years or so)? You know, some folks say they have read history, but clearly have not learned from it.
seepeesate @ 141
They’ll need to go through more than just my dead body to get to my sons. Like the saying on my nephew’s T-shirt: “You fight me, you fight the whole family.”
Richmond @ 142
Or CongressCritters meeting in their offices?
seepeesate @ 141
I have a sixteen year old daughter, and I intend to get her a passport soon. If there is a draft, we have family in a neutral european country that would hopefully take her in. It’s probably not too soon to begin making plans. And am I enraged to even be contemplating this? BIG TIME.
selise @ 130
those pesky staffers will have to get out their erasers: “(8) Nothing in this Act should be construed as giving the President the authority to use military force against Iran.” I’m sure it won’t be too hard to erase this little proviso.
seepeesate @ 141
see? what a motivator – to force people to actually leave the country. I’m all for a draft, men and women.
Bullshit. This kind of thinking simply allows us to distance ourselves from the kids – and yes, they’re kids – who are over there. I see who is going from Vermont – and a lot of Vermonters are there. They aren’t the middle class college bound crowd – not a one. It’s the blue collar, dad and mom aren’t paying for college, work in a gas station after high school or running chair lifts for rich folks. Dim economic prospects, and they are being HOUNDED by recruiters. Add in the fact that like most Americans, they have been lied to about this war and they have no clue what the reality is. They sign up in a flush of optimism, then they come around with sick feeling of dread before they have to report – what have I gotten myself into? But then it’s too late.
brendan @ 138
agreed. plus – two wrongs don’t make a right.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 122
Using the draft as a political tool sucks. You are using people, and people’s lives as a political tool. Isn’t that the kind of political calculation that makes us despise chimp?
This topic makes my blood boil, and here’s why. A draft is a poor man’s army. Bullshit the rich and priveleged won’t get deferments. And everyone calling for the draft? Are you personally willing to go and fight, to achieve your political ends? If you are not PERSONALLY willing to be drafted, or to pack your son or daughter off, then back off.
carolyn urban @ 153 –
amen
For me, mandatory uni-fucking-versal service with military or other kind of service in this country would be a step in the right direction. What we have now is a bunch of whiny ass people who don’t have any investment in anything except their god-given right to go to the mall.
TiredFed @ 145
We shall call it the Triumph of the West. Western technology with the infrastructure of intelligence gathering combined with the warfighting abilities of the electonrically enhanced soldier will finally Triumph the West over the forces that started in Parthia and Arabia but shall be finally extinguished by the USA and the West.
raven @ 155
I’m good with this. Let everyone, no exceptions, roll up their sleeves and get to work. How about letting high school grads help rebuild our infrastructure? Clean up our streets? Mentor the kids with no one at home? I’m with you here, let’s get all these kids in touch with what it takes to run this country. Off the couch, into the streets. As long as we’re not talking about mandatory military, you’ve got no argument from me.
As we wait for the (highly predictable) Petraeus Report in September, it is the group of reports coming in from insiders, politicians and news people that make the future look even grimmer than previously imagined.
Example: Generals in Iraq are predicting that, in order to hold things together while the country is worked out politically we will probably have to stay there for nine or ten years…
Under The LobsterScope
[Mod Note; Edited for length.]
carolyn urban @ 156
Alas, neva haapen but that’ what we think!
SanderO @ 11
If there’s any silver lining to the Bush administration maybe it’s that his craziness will eventually touch enough people that they will be stirred from their slumbers and stand up and say “Doh”. If, however, they just sleep we get fascism and deserve it.
Watch the movie Swordfish with John Travolta and Halle Berry for an idea of the ideas these nuts use.
How many dead would you say is enough if it’s to protect America? 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 1,000,000, 10,000,000,000?
At what point do you say you won’t give any more lives?
At what point can you stand to be called ‘traitor’ or ‘coward’ and you won’t flinch?
Besides, the movie is fun entertainment.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 113
If we want to get out of Iraq we had better elect someone who is strong enough to face down those monsters and say, “Enough.” Is that Hillary “Goldwater girl” Clinton, Barack “Osama” Obama or maybe John Edwards?
I pick Edwards.