(Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983 via the National Security Archive.)
Because nothing says success like repeating the same old failed and dangerous idiocy:
…There are many more where those came from. At least three U.S. government agencies are now investigating the massive “disappearance” and diversion of weapons Washington intended for Iraqi government forces that instead have spread to militants and organized gangs across the region. The potential size of the traffic is stunning. A report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office last month showed that since 2004, some 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols, bought with U.S. money for Iraqi security forces, have gone missing.
At retail prices in the United States, a Glock 19 costs about $500. On the black market in Turkey, it can fetch up to $3,500, according to the national police. A senior Turkish security official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of diplomatic sensitivities, said his government estimates some 20,000 U.S.-bought Glock 9mm pistols have been brought from Iraq into his country over the last three years. “The problem on our side is that this corruption is so big they [the Iraqi and U.S. governments] cannot stop it,” said the official.
The U.S. military has investigated the problem repeatedly—and the losses look more appalling every time. Major U.S. arms transfers began when Gen. David Petraeus was commander of the Multi-National Security Transition Command—Iraq (MNSTC-I), better known as Minsticky. Its mission was to train, arm and organize Iraq’s military and police forces, but the Iraqis’ weapons came via the State Department, and the supply line was actually run by private contractors. A certain sense of drama militated against good bookkeeping, too. In a recent radio interview, Petraeus—now the commander of all Coalition forces in Iraq—reminisced about helicopters ferrying weapons to Iraqi troops under fire at night in Najaf. Men were “kicking two battalions’ worth of equipment off the ramp and getting out of there while we could,” he said…. (emphasis mine)
Read the whole article. It gets worse. Gen. Petraeus was in charge of this failed “kick ‘em off the ‘copters” strategy. And there is no real accounting of all of this.
We are arming by proxy the very people who are trying to cause chaos and harm to allies in the region, and to destablize what little peace is left in the Middle East and elsewhere. With the incompetence and lax control over the Bush Administration’s pals with no-bid crony contracts and, with well over 80,000 missing and unaccounted for Glocks in play, alone, what could possibly go wrong? Because arming Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein worked out so well for us through the years, didn’t it?
The Bush Administration: the dangerous failure that keeps on giving, for generations to come…
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the zed?!
3?
HA!
OldCoastie @ 1
Congrats, OC…!!!
On a roll today aren’t y’all?
single digits!
Well wash my foul mouth out with the truth.
Insane. Impeach.
Dead liiiiiinksssssah!
Mainewebreport dropped all the pages and comments, awwhhhh.
:(
Actually, their whole page is down… ironic timing.
Cheney prolley just writes it all off as “free market enterprise”… and would be happy if Halliburton was reaping the benefits.
Twice Jackass Tweety has asked John if Elizabeth is a “battle ax”.
Off Topic:
Rover will be on MTP this Sunday. (Now that’s a surprise!)
Send Monsignor Timmeh some suggestions as to what questions he should ask Turdblossom.
Sorry-EPU’d Current pic of Flossie…
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/west/cpac/wv-l.jpg
“Multi-National Security Transition Command—Iraq (MNSTC-I), better known as Minsticky”
As in “Sticky Fingers?”
God Christy. This really pisses me off. Jon Stewart has a great piece on this too – well a funny one, anyway. The cost of it is disgusting too, thinking what that money could have done here.
Do you wonder if they never got the armaments at all, but just paid Halliburton the money and “pretended” to acquire them and pass them out (aka lose them). There may be something fishy here. I would be curious if there is any troop knowledge of this.
The idea that George Bush gets to “call someone or in this case Iran’s elite military guard” terrorists and then have full permission to go after them is
ludicrous
terrifying
more of the same
all of the above.
Who is next? Crimaliens? Leftist bloggers?
This from HuffPost:
Despite Bush’s repeated statements that the (September Iraq) report will reflect evaluations by Petraeus and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, administration officials said it would actually be written by the White House, with inputs from officials throughout the government.
And we should trust these people, why??
raven @ 10
Honestly, that man should be off the air and in treatment.
And Karl’s first priority upon leaving the WH is to use guns on doves. The symbolism is rich.
“The Bush Administration: the dangerous failure that keeps on giving, for generations to come…
Junya has been successful at failing his entire life.
raven-i left you an epu’s response at 270 in last thread……..
We arm all sides.
barbara @ 16
Bush keeps yammering over and over that he will “listen to what General Petraues has to say about Iraq.”
Apparently W will listen in the same way that Edgar Bergen listened to Charlie McCarthy.
I think the list of “same old failed and dangerous idiocy” is getting too long and developing too many patterns to be due to “idiocy”. Every “screw-up” in Iraq..too few troops, not securing the arms dumps, disbanding the Iraqi military…..loosing 200,000 weapons, all result in increase chaos and death. Spreading the war to Iran; is this the Ledeen’s “creative destruction” put into practice?
http://www.amconmag.com/06_30_03/feature.html
Let’s review:
$12 billion of missing cash
190K missing guns
Gee, I wonder why there’s a problem with the militias?
George Bush, Dick Cheney, and some members of Congress are holding our troops hostage in Irak… and now they are arming many sides of a civil war which will clearly result in increased injury and death of our men and women in uniform.
War criminals.
People often ask — just last night at a Meetup, in fact — wasn’t the war and subsequent occupation of Iraq all about oil?
No, not really. Oil was only part of it; they couldn’t get to it with Saddam in the way.
But the real reason is that the Oil-for-Food program was grossly inefficient as a money laundering scam. The current occupation makes Oil-for-Food look like a blip in comparison to the amount of money these people could clear.
And now they not only got a mess of money for no-bid contracts for guns; they can turn around and sell them for many times more than their cost in cash.
[sigh] If only the money was coming back to pay off the debt we owe for this war.
As I read it:
Promote Patraeus to high position because of his incompetency in security.
Patraeus is less likely to prove the Bush Administration wrong when he knows the reprucussions could be revealing his track record and using that as an excuse to fire him from his position and demote him further.
Now, a strong general with an immaculate record would not mind at all looking at the president and saying outright, ‘Mr president, our surge has had negligable improvements. In some areas, it has made things worse’
Will Patreus say this? No. He knows if he does, the unnaccountability for the firearms will be broadcasted as reason to get rid of him. The side-effect for us who are trying to stop the war, is we cannot effectively use General Patraeus’ report as reason to get out of Iraq, because Patraeus was a reckless, irresponsible general who endangered the lives of American soldiers with his ignorance.
So. As a result, Patraeus doesn’t want to lose his position. He parrots the Administration’s talking points. If he’s out of line, he past haunts him and he’s toast on principled grounds.
1. We went into Iraq, leaving 95% of their arms depots, dumps and bunkers unguarded. Within weeks, all the good stuff was gone.
2. We disbanded their military and police forces. Those peoples’ weapons disappeared.
3. We brought in hundreds of thousands of weapons for the new model military and police. Those guns have now disappeared.
4. The Iraqi govenment also brought in hundreds of thousands of new weapons.
5. The Saudis have smuggled many weapons in and out of Iraq.
Clearly, to all but the most rabid lambs and foul-mouthed fem-bloggers here, this must be an Iranian plot….
Would anyone be surprised if most of those weapons have “made in Iran” stamped on them?
That way when the ‘insurgents’ are caught with them, the Big Dick gets his war with Iran.
Kevster @ 22
Actually, it’s more accurate to say ‘like Charlie McCarthy listened to Edgar Bergan’.
After all, Charlie McCarthy was the dummy in that relationship.
Tom @ 24
I thought it was $13 Bil. that was airlifted into Baghdad originally…!!!
Just for the record, here is another weapons deal for 40,000 assault rifles through England. The transport of tens of thousands of weapons cannot be easily concealed. There is customs, bank transactions, security and so on. These weapons are being spread around the region, and will have the effect of “destabilization”. This like the Tillman murder, is too hot for the corporate journalists, because it goes to the top of the corruption.
________________
http://observer.guardian.co.uk…..78,00.html
Documents obtained by The Observer show Procurement Management Services (PMS) had a contract to provide assault rifles to Ziad Cattan, the former head of military procurement at the Iraq Defence Ministry.
PMS was licensed by the DTI, now known as the Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR), to import at least 40,000 assault rifles and AK-47s to Britain from the former Yugoslavia.
Last night the department declined to shed light on whether it knew that, in 2005, PMS also had at least one contract to supply some 300 7.62mm light-machineguns from the former Yugoslavia to Cattan at the Iraq Defence Ministry. Until mid-2005, Cattan, who used to run a pizza parlour in Poland, was responsible for overseeing the importation of weapons into Iraq. A warrant has been issued for his arrest amid allegations he illegally made millions of dollars in corrupt deals.
There is no Foreign Office record of any British company being granted a licence to transport guns between Bosnia and Baghdad.
So sad, so true. And its not merely incompetence. BushCo. actually set out to lock in changes that a new administration could not reverse by merely flipping a switch. The malevolence was intentional. Of course, there was also incompetence, and in some cases that incompetence may prevent the Bushies from setting some of their changes in concrete.
Bob in HI
And Cheney is bitchin’ about Iran sending in IED’s.
Irony?
Let’s not forget about the munitions dumps we didn’t bother guarding right after we went in.
There are enough armaments, explosives and small arms floating around over there for them to invade Texas.
Now come on folks, you can’t have war without guns! Good grief. How do you expect Bush to fight an enemy that doesn’t have guns? Hell, the way things are going here at home, I better get me one of them AK-47s. You never know when Lil’ Georgie will declare martial law and order the arrest of all liberals. You ask how can he tell a liberal? The same way he can tell Al Qaeda in Iraq from Sunni insurgants, if we kill ‘em, they’re Al Qaeda. Now which end do the bullets come out of this thing…
Rayne@26: well, the war will eventually pay for itself, you know..
Geez…I wonder if Iraqi’s are killing US soldiers for their AK-47’s so they can sell it to feed their families.
Tom @36,
Yeah, and to think Wolfowitz said something as stupid as that and somehow ended up leading the World Bank for years.
cancer_cures @ 38
a prime example of all that is wrong with BushCo
This just makes me feel all warm and secure.
On the other hand, I can’t wait for “No one could have foreseen the loss of 190,000 AK-47 assault weapons…”
The Republican GOP Mantra: Incompetence will be rewarded. Take a look at this piece over at the HUFFPO: Barry Rosenberg’s Billions Wasted
From Stephen F. Hayes’ WSJ puff piece on the Dick, which Christy cited:
Wow! That’s news! So the US air defense system wasn’t a total failure on 9/11?
Now, perhaps, Mr. Cheney would please inform us exactly which flight was ordered shot down…Hmmm?
Rove regarding Bush critics:
“They misunderestimate him.”
For someone who is supposed to have a way with words, that is a good one. Wonder if that was accidentally on purpose, or just illiterate.
“Originated as a malapropism of “underestimated” by US President George Walker Bush in a speech on September 26, 2001.” Langmaker.
JohnJ @ 29
The problem with that is that we already know goddamned well where they were made.
“…Pusillanimous Pussy-footers…” A blast from the past, that defines our current crop of Dems perfectly!!! ;-)
A small sample of Michael Ledeen..neocon theorist..
Ledeen has gained notoriety in recent months for the following paragraph in his latest book, The War Against the Terror Masters. In what reads like a prophetic approval of the policy of chaos now being visited on Iraq, Ledeen wrote,
Creative destruction is our middle name, both within our own society and abroad. We tear down the old order every day, from business to science, literature, art, architecture, and cinema to politics and the law. Our enemies have always hated this whirlwind of energy and creativity, which menaces their traditions (whatever they may be) and shames them for their inability to keep pace. Seeing America undo traditional societies, they fear us, for they do not wish to be undone. They cannot feel secure so long as we are there, for our very existence—our existence, not our politics—threatens their legitimacy. They must attack us in order to survive, just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission.
http://www.amconmag.com/06_30_03/feature.html
They just hadn’t counted on the Iraqi’s fighting back..Iraq was to have been the demonstration project..the example for Iran and Syria….Hasn’t quite worked out as planned, but the result may be even better then they expected. Maybe Iraq will be the “initiator” for a chain reaction of death and destruction in the Middle East.
CTuttle @ 31
Well, what’s a billion or two between friends?
Cliff Varnell @ 42
Indeed. In case anyone missed this old article including the NORAD tapes, it is a must read.
PB (peanut butter) @ 47
…or our enemies!!! *g*
madness, madness, madness
TeddySanFran @ 50
Feel better, Teddy? ;-)
Steve-AR @ 46
What Ledeen, typical of colonialists, fails to recognize is that the ability to destroy does not, in and of itself, grant the ability to impose the new form of your choice, or any form at all, in its place. Destruction only destroys, and the destroyer of cultures seldom has the power to create a new one, no matter how fucking much energy and creativity he thinks he has to offer.
I said it this morning, and I’ll say it again:
You can’t have a war without an enemy, and you can’t have an enemy that has no weapons.
That’s War 101
You can debate the degree of intent vs incompetance on the part of Bush & Co., but the fact remains…these people did not want to be done in June or July of 2003.
Bustednuckles @ 34
no. he’s pissed because he thinks all the profits that come from selling weapons belong to his cronies by rights. iran is not allowed to horn in on his business.
Elliott @ 21
So if the US declares a big chunk of the Iranian Army a terrorist organization and wants to bomb Iran because it is supplying arms to insurgents/resistance in Iraq, THEN
they could declare themselves a terrorist organization for supplying arms to insurgents/resistance in Iraq, and them bomb themselves senseless.
Logical, no?
Rayne @ 26
DING!
OT..A little creative destruction at home..
WASHINGTON — Sales of existing homes fell in 41 states during the April-June quarter while home prices were down in one-third of the metropolitan areas surveyed, a real estate trade group reported Wednesday.
The new figures from the National Association of Realtors underscored the severity of the current housing slump, the worst downturn in 16 years.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wi…..ome-sales/
Eureka Springs @ 48
thanks
Steve-AR @ 56
Sixteen years, eh? Guess you can’t blame this one on Clinton, Shrubby Boy.
Steve-AR @ 56
You should see the comments about this on the real-estate blog at the LA Times. Some of the people are, um, trollish. A lot of unhidden racism there from people, most of whom moved from CA to OK and other points in ‘flyover country’, and are also happy to have concealed-carry weapons easily available to them.
Steve-AR @ 56
Yes. And food prices are rising sharply. (per Drudge).
I can’t stand the thought of what is going to happen to our troops on their way out…
What “allies”? The “Coalition of the Willing” has dried up. Now our troops face our misplaced weapons alone.
Richmond @60: Yes — look for the price of milk to go over $5 a gallon…if you need butter for Yule baking, buy it now and freeze it.
Loo Hoo. @ 61
I believe the relevant text is the Anabasis aka “The Retreat Up-Country.”
What Ledeen, typical of colonialists, fails to recognize is that the ability to destroy does not, in and of itself, grant the ability to impose the new form of your choice, or any form at all, in its place. Destruction only destroys, and the destroyer of cultures seldom has the power to create a new one, no matter how fucking much energy and creativity he thinks he has to offer.
Steve-AR @ 56
foreclosures in my city are up almost 4x over last year. and it’s hard to see how this doesn’t get worse since the we’ve only started on the arm resetting bubble.
Loo Hoo. @ 61
You and me both…I’m very worried about what could happen “before” they try to get out. Bridges are being blown up all around Baghdad, and Basra is under siege. Now the north is experiencing enormous civilian casualties. Meanwhile, W/Cheney is ramping up war right next door. It is insane. I will say one thing; if the troops get trapped, there will be a draft to go in and get them. All hell will break loose. I hope things go the other way.
@ 65..I screwed up the quotes..sorry
It was 1977. I was doing business with Indonesia. Through some networking and some luck, I landed some nice contracts that helped me get my business started. A high profile interior design firm called me and I met the the woman heading up their SF office. My word, she was beautiful, stunning taste, gracious and enviable. I felt like I was in Cartier in Paris. My own presentation was very simple and modest.
M and I were the odd couple. I liked her and she appreciated and like me. After that we had little in common. In the course of many conversations she learned I was Quaker, nonviolent in perspective and was in a business that supported the local Indonesian people. She was creating a theme in several high end hotel suites and used many of my products.
We were in my car, driving to a meeting together, because her red convertible Mercedes was stolen. It was a gift from her husband. As usual, she was stunningly dressed. I asked what her husband did for a living? She looks embarrassed and says it would be opposite of what I believe. She was genuinely embarrassed. He and his partners sold weapons to Third World countries. He had been with the Pentagon for years. His partners were from the Pentagon and other US Government agencies. She was quite open with the information.
Her words resound to this day. “If you want to make lots of money, sell arms to other countries.” I asked how she felt about this. She said she was upset at first but he explained to her that it was no more than business and if these people wanted to kill each other, so be it. It was none of his concern. I suggested that those weapons could be used against us at some point. She responded that these people didn’t have the smarts to do that.
So, how do they get weapons? From the same people invading their country. Business is good. Really good. M and I worked together for several months but I saw her differently. She went to her weekly facials, enjoyed a luxurious spa, shopped in New York and wore exquisite designer clothes. She often went to state dinners.
wigwam at 62 — If you read the article, the inicident that they talk about at the start happened IN TURKEY. If you think those arms are just staying in Iraq, you are fooling yourself. And that is enormous trouble for law enforcement…everywhere.
Brisingamen @ 63
geez! And the cows won’t be getting much more corn because it will all be going to big-corp owned ethenal fuel. Sweet!
Loo Hoo. @ 61
As bad as it will be I think it’s much better than if they stay. The troops have full air support with one air base in southern Irak which has more traffic than any other airport in the world. Also we need to leave a whole lot of stuff behind (hopefully blow up a lot of weapons)..any argument to the contrary looks weak with so much news of weaponry lost and or provided to various factions of Irakis.
selise @ 66
I have posted this before..My GF’s mother has a friend who works in the loan dept of a bank…The friend said she had been very busy, not writing new loans but processing defaults which were coming in at the rate of17 per hour. This is in a small city of ~53k population.
QuakerGirl @ 69
Movie: Lord of War
Loo Hoo. @ 61
They’ll make it out (if they don’t depart thru Iran). Those convoys will be guarded by Apache gunships, Spectres, fighters, as well as a free-fire zone for a considerable distance around. You will not see a desperate, cut-off Army in Iraq having to run the gauntlet to Kuwait. There would have to be a serious degradation of the Air Force for that to happen.
selise @ 66
Foreclosures way up, property values down, tax revenues based on property values down. Local schools will be in an even worse state in many places.
Shuster is in for Tucker.
RonD @ 75
That is what Mr. LS told me.
Yeah, On MSNBC it is Shuster instead of TuKKKer.
OT – Shuster in for Tucker – topic… are we going to war with Iran?
Steve-AR @ 65
Which all sounds very much like a fancy ideological dress-up for doomed ambition to me. And I disagree that it isn’t incompetence or idiocy that is stirring up the shit just because Ledeen and his fellow travelers want to dress it up as a master plan.
Eureka Springs @72 — Agreed!
Leave the stuff behind, get the people out.
Not one item of equipment is worth a human life. (If possible give the medical items to the local hospitals.)
jayt @ 80
Reminds of..”Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you and who’s army????” Oh, yeah…
Insane.
TeddySanFran @ 50
Madness is watching the Fed burn billions of tax dollars trying to save Wall Street.
Government debt limit is meaningless.
RonD @ 75
And that is the conundrum isn’t it? Having to inflict massive casualties on Iraqi civilians in-order to extract our troops.
Eureka Springs @ 72
The troops, if they have to leave precipitously, will go out much as they came in. They’ll get massive air support, and will probably take only about 150 to 200 percent of the casualties they took going in.
LS @ 83
Reminds of..”Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you and who’s army????” Oh, yeah…
Insane.
Looks like Shuster inherited a Tucker-picked “expert”.
Thanks, Ron. Sure hope you and Mr. LS are right.
Bush Co Things To Do:
1. Start War check
2. Empty country’s surplus into no bid Halliburton contract. check
3. Ransack the country we invade oil, art, money, gubment contracts. check
4. Blame the locals. check
5. Let them “accidently” get arms so they can keep fighting. Oops! check
6. Continue war. check
7. Ignore all else. check
8. Block opposition. check
9. Repeat.
Which all sounds very much like a fancy ideological dress-up for doomed ambition to me. And I disagree that it isn’t incompetence or idiocy that is stirring up the shit just because Ledeen and his fellow travelers want to dress it up as a master plan.
“The questions is, is the president true to his word”…
Ummmmmm. Don’t you get it yet?
Steve-AR @ 46
So, destruction is creative? How positively Orwellian. And well understood by Lewis Carroll, in Alice in Wonderland.
Ledeen is a dangerous criminal, sowing seeds of destruction wherever he goes.
Bob in HI
This stuff is lifted straight from the writings of Italian fascists before World War I. I think Ledeen specialized in them at one time. Match obviously made in heaven.
Knut Wicksell @ 92
I think the source is a little darker and hotter than heaven.
And just why *shouldn’t* Iran have a nuclear weapon? The crazy Bush-alike Iranian mouthpiece has no power – it still belongs to the religious faction. Israel, India, Pakistan, Israel, and almost certainly Saudi Arabia have ‘em. Hell, in their situation I’d want one too.
Since when did Mutually Assured Destruction become a non-starter?
eureka at 25 says-”George Bush, Dick Cheney, and some members of Congress are holding our troops hostage in Irak… and now they are arming many sides of a civil war which will clearly result in increased injury and death of our men and women in uniform.
War criminals.”
yeah, i think that, too……have for a long time…….playing all sides against the middle……
What happens when an immovable object meets an irresistible force? They will destruct. Iraq has no good options. No one has a good answer. There aren’t even gradations of worse. It’s like getting an “F”. Has anyone ever received an “F” plus or “F” minus. We long ago passed the point of no return.
O. M. G.
Texas executions…400 this month:
http://www.rawstory.com/showou…../20283686/
LS @ 91
The president isn’t even true to his wife, why then would you expect him to be true to his word?
Light infantry and Marines can move fast and light, but moving that heavy armor…Abrams, Bradleys, Strikers, artillery, hundreds if not thousands of Humvees, much of which can’t be left behind, as this would be tantamount to equipping the enemy with our latest technology, and destroying it in place is politically infeasible: the Reptilian Right wouldn’t stand for it. I’m sure FOX news would love to run footage of US troops destroying their own equipment while saying,”See what the Democrats are making our troops do!”…this is why it’s said that amateurs talk tactics, while professionals talk logistics.
My fear is they will depart Iraq thru Iran, in a highly-organized fashion.
LS @ 97
Jesus Christ on a bun with French fries! Is that motherfucker Perry getting a nice hard-on from this?
LS @ 98
Correction. Not this month.
rayne left you an epu’d comment last thread at 280
Eureka Springs @ 48
Extra! Extra!
China’s tallest building defies post 911 physics does not come crashing to the ground during fire
john in sacramento @ 104
No jet fuel.
once upon a time, I was at a party at the lake… not a FireDog lake… a different one… with people getting pretty loose… one drunken buffoon whom I am embarassed to admit I rather liked previous to this event started ranting about how to deal with the ‘Indian problem’
- the province I live in has a large native demographic, and many of them are low-income and, naturally enough, often at odds with the law –
said buffoon suggested that the answer was in buying whiskey and guns and dropping them off in Indian communities… and then waiting for them to run out of ammunition…
why do I smell the same sort of creepy racist dumbfuck policy in these ‘missing’ weapons?
Loo Hoo. @ 61
Which may be one of the reasons Georgie Boy doesn’t want to preside over a withdrawal.
It is likely to be messy.
Bob in hi
LS @ 105
oops..WTC7 – no jet fuel either.
LS @ 97
O. M. G.
Texas executions…400 this month:
http://www.rawstory.com/showou…../20283686/
That’s 400 since 1982.
Still, not enough!! Come on Abu – let’s get this shit moving – if you let prisoners just hang around, they might be found to be innocent through DNA testing or some other communist tactic. I mean, look at Illinois, fer chrissakes!
jayt @ 107
That’s 400 since 1982.
Still, not enough!! Come on Abu – let’s get this shit moving – if you let prisoners just hang around, they might be found to be innocent through DNA testing or some other communist tactic.
I’m not sure I feel much better. Not in a state with a lousy history of competent court-appointed defense counsel and a long history of racism.
yellow elephant at 30 says-”Actually, it’s more accurate to say ‘like Charlie McCarthy listened to Edgar Bergan’.
After all, Charlie McCarthy was the dummy in that relationship.”
welcome yellow elephant….(channeling egregious)
jayt @ 95
I can see why, but…Saudi Arabia has nukes? Linky,please?
Dan in Canada @ 105
Dan, I think you might be right… same kind of brain working in the WH.
john in sacramento @ 104
Building probably has an internal support system — the WTC towers support came from the ’skin’ of the building and heat from the jet fuel fires passed the maximum the steel could handle — major structural failure.
Steve-AR @ 73
wow. hard to see how we get through this without a lot of pain to a lot of people.
Why do people still think this is incompentence? This is the plan and they have been executing perfectly. The idea is to make sure Iraq is completely unstable so that they cannot govern themselves, and they cant control their own oil. Making Iraq oil available to the market will just force prices down anyway, and who wants that?
RonD @ 109
No hard data, just a personal belief that the Oil Administration wouldn’t leave their buddies without a working bomb or two.
test from ifone at Dulles. Loved the press release
Some wonder if this gives Rove more time to launch a swiftboat campaign against Hillary Clinton.
Q asked by Shuster
Hi eg!
I know there are many good people in Texas. It’s a big state with lots of diversity. Like the South, it attracts people who love doing violence to others. Jim Crow Lite just found another expression to do its dirty work. State execution.
I know I’ll get flack from Christians but if a cross, a symbol of execution by the state, same as the electric chair, is the symbol of the religion, how does one suppose that enters the psyche? It certainly doesn’t represent the nonviolence teaching of Jesus.
jayt @ 117
http://www.forbes.com/finance/…..29000.html
My friend’s brother is a cop who signed up (as a private contractor) to train cops in Iraq after the invasion. He was there in 2004-2005, and started out as a die-hard true believer but when he got back he was completely disillusioned; he told us back then that as soon as the weapons went in the front door of the police station, they were being sold out the back door to the insurgents. Multiply by however many police stations, and another couple of years, and you don’t even need to wonder about those weapons that were pushed off the back of a helicopter.
Hi egregious. You missed a real party last thread!
LS @ 98
This is obscene
frank 33 at 32-
i believe there was a russian arms dealer involved,sorry, i can’t find the link…….was about two days ago.
egregious @ 118
I’m jealous, eg!!! :P
Brisingamen @ 114
Who said the towers had “skin support” whatever that is. There were massive support columns in the towers.
Shuster: “Dick Cheney is the most liked person in the Bush Administration.”
Whaaaaaaaaaat?
Hi Egregious, how’s the vacation?
LS @ 120
Well I’ll be damned. A gut feeling turned sour.
LS @ 104
Kerosene
LS @ 128
It seems like Schuster is trying to talk Tucker talk today.
Quaker Girl at 69,
You know, I will frequently wonder from now on when I look at an expensively dressed, obviously spa-prepped woman driving a ridiculously expensive car, (and there are an awful lot of them in Scottsdale,) if she is living off the blood money of arms sales. I already know someone with more money than she ought to have because her husband is a high ranking military contractor. She, like the woman you mentioned, has lost not a wink of sleep over what her husband does to provide for her blatantly extravagant lifestyle.
LS @ 127
Surely he must have said most disliked??????? Bush would probably fire him if heard that Cheney was more popular than he.
David @ 35
Just guessing that it will be CheneLieb about Feb-March 2008. Just mere months after Congress having (repeatedly) abrogated the Constitution accepts Bush’s resignation and appoints Lieberman VP for the new Crusade (Iran).
What “sunset clause”?
Loo Hoo. @ 133
He has to read a script.
The problem as I see it.
FDL readers want out of Iraq.
Want to deal with immigration.
Want in some cases to love Jesus.
I buy all this.
People on the Right want:
bibles in the school
to kill liberals
to overturn roe v. wade
People in the middle want a simple answer.
The left offers a complex answer.
Those on the right offer a simple answer.
I’d had a dreadful day, yesterday, woke up in the middle of the night, still upset and read Late Nite and Late Late Nite.
Comedy extravaganza – couldn’t keep quiet.
A solid gold night followed by us fighting back.
Priceless
Brisingamen @ 113
Untrue. Or do you imply that these and these were somehow removed after the construction was finished?
Twain @ 135
I’m pretty sure he said “liked”, but I think he is leading up to dispute that sentiment.
Rove opens his yapper with Limballs
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes…..ex.html?hp
Fern @ 123
The article says 398 executions since 1982. It doesn’t say 400 this month.
RonD @ 100
Most of that stuff is spent, based on the last report I heard. Strip them for parts & dump whats left in the gulf, ala Viet Nam & WWII Pacific. The bean counters can justify it all on paper. Not worth rebuilding, and destined for the reserves even if it is. As for what FOX will say? pffffffttttt.
Thanks, LS! I’m not surprised they’re working on it, just doubt they’ve anything usable yet. Testing the bugger is going to be the rub…If I was an IAEA guy, I’d be looking at Saudi Arabia, Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea, Iran, Brazil, Egypt, and Georgia.
Jonathan @ 138
The simple answer on the right is always to get rid of people who are not like them – whoever them is.
Tithonia @ 143
True. But in light of even the vague information we now have on the frequency with which innocent persons receive the death penalty on a national scale, combined with the racism involved both nationally and in Texas, plus the reputation of the Texas court system for appointing indifferent or incompetent defense counsel in capital cases, I think we can sustain the use of the word “obscene.”
Tithonia @ 143
It was a mistake. I corrected it above. Sorry for it being misleading. It is still obscene.
dmac @ 125
The KGB colonel Victor Bout, is one of them. There are probably lots of these “Merchants of Death”. Doug Feith is rumored to be part of secret deals. (He is the dumbest guy on the planet.) I think Sibel Edmunds may have hinted at some of this-she knows a lot though, and is being muzzled.
Shuster, “if Karl Rove is a man, he will come on a show like this one”.
Tithonia @ 143
Okay, I guess there are degrees of obscene-ness.
RonD @ 145
Don’t forget South Carolina. Secession always works better when you have a “deterrent.”
Shuster challenges Rove to come on *his* show and answer questions! Woooot!!!
richmond at 71 says-”geez! And the cows won’t be getting much more corn because it will all be going to big-corp owned ethenal fuel. Sweet!”
i asked our local extension agent about this-noticed that there used to be soy fields and corn, more corn now.
he said, yeah, because of the ethanol, more corn……………
Schuster sez “Karl Rove needs to come on a show like this and answer some questions about Scooter Libby!”
He seems to think Leahy and Conyers will not enjoy Karl’s press tour (Rush) although his upcoming appearance on Timmeh’s wee programme is not mentioned….
OldCoastie @ 150
And if Karl Rove is a pansy-assed coward who only antes at a table where he already stacked the deck, he will probably STILL come on Tucker’s show.
Fern @ 151
Don’t be giving Gonzo and his newest toy any ideas or incentives, gang…
Fred Fielding is invited to get into the tangle with Shuster.
I wasn’t commenting on the relative obscenity. I am opposed to the death penalty.
Boston1775 @ 120
Hey Boston
Heh, Moveon sent me this e-mail…
https://pol.moveon.org/donate/cheneyvideo.html?r=2879&id=10983-8522235-U8BUN6
George The Brilliant Bush offers his beliefs on how his presidency will be viewed:
“Don’t worry. History will get it right and we’ll both be dead.”
-GSD
Just guessing that it will be CheneLieb about Feb-March 2008. Just mere months after Congress having (repeatedly) abrogated the Constitution accepts Bush’s resignation and appoints Lieberman VP for the new Crusade (Iran).
Don’t know about that one, but because of the early primaries, which lock the nominees in place for long enough for the public to grow to hate all of ‘em, there has probably never been another election so prone to a viable third-party challenge.
Tithonia @ 159
Clearly, you are a wise woman.
LS @ 145
LS – I believe what you say is so. But I wonder about those from the right who venture onto this site who are written off as trolls and who are largely ignored instead of being engaged.
Kevster @ 22
Puhleeeeeeeze! Mr. Decider didn’t listen to Shinseki, he didn’t listen to Abizaid, he didn’t listen to Franks let us not dignify this miserable failure’s attempts to shift blame for The MeatGrinder from his skanky lil’ ass.
Mr. Decider is a big, big liar and any discussion of what he says should start from that established fact.
Schuster warns Rove that he better be prepared for Tim Russert…
Brisingamen @ 114
Sorry to disagree, but incorrect on both counts. There was massive internal structural elements in WTC 1 & 2, and jet fuel burns relatively cool.
Well, there is a pattern. Bush started with blowing up frogs, then he became dictator of Texas and executed as many people as he could, then he got into the white house and now the nasty little sociopath is killing people on such a massive scale there is no way to even keep track anymore. Most mass murderers don’t get the opportunities Bush has had. And make no mistake, Rudy is the kind of sociopath that will make Dubya look like a angelic choirboy.
http://washingtontimes.com/app…../108130003
Unfortunately, the legislation fails to provide retroactive liability protection for companies who could face lawsuits from privacy ideologues for cooperating with government requests to monitor terrorist suspects’ communications. The key question today is whether Mr. Reid and Mrs. Pelosi are serious about fighting what will almost certainly be a losing battle on FISA once again or are simply parroting silly rhetoric in an effort to satiate the bloggers and the rest of the lunatic fringe.
GSD @ 162
Has he forgotten all the others that have died and all those who will die but don’t have to? Has he ever thought about them?
GSD @ 161
They’ll just have to buy up Houghton Mifflin.
Loo Hoo. @ 124
What can i say no wifi on plane. Sending this fm taxi
Jonathan @ 165
I wouldn’t say that… We do feed the trolls, they just don’t like what we feed’em!!! *g*
Spokesperson from the AEI (PR Lady) just hung up on the evening call-in news show here in Canada. The questions about naming the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization were just a *little* too difficult. When she started to get into trouble she said “well, I can’t give you exact details because I don’t have the president’s executive order in front of me …” and then “I have to run to another appointment … good bye.”
Ack.
I *love* the way Shuster is openly taunting Rove and calling him out.
Piss off, David Gregory.
But, but Ramesh Ponnuru sez the Democrats are the party of death.
I’m so confused.
-GSD
Ed*ard Teller @ 152
A secessionist movement with a nuclear weapon? Hmmm.
dmac @ 96
Alfred Nobel invented dynamite and became extremely wealthy by converting an iron and steel mill into an armaments manufacturing plant before WW I. That company, Bofors, sold its best armaments to both sides during WW-II. Wiki doesn’t tell me if Bofors sold to both sides in WW-I.
Sometime in high school I remember reading about international munitions companies who freely sold to anyone, making money from both sides of many conflicts.
It is those kind of companies that form, IMHO, the backbone of the Bilderberg Group and the Trilateral Commission, through their top people and consultants.
Not even Orwell foresaw the extent to which large international companies are controlling the world. His vision was that the large companies would take over whole countries, and compete with each other from that political base. He did not see that, while Big Business would wield influence in politics, that it would get even bigger by fanning conflicts and selling to both sides.
I know it might sound like I’ve been brainwashed by the loony conspiracy groups, but I give you Exhibit A: Halliburton. Now, what was that you were saying?
Bob in HI
Brisingamen @ 112
I wasn’t going to start on this but, they had an internal support system — think of a bed of nails — which is how they were designed to sustain a direct hit from a jet, in that the plane would hit and go through the exterior like a pencil might in a screen door and also to have flexibility in hurricane force winds.
They were also designed with and coated with asbestos per NYC FD, NY State, and NIST code against any possible fires
They were very well designed engineering-wise
Ok, done talking about this subject. Gotta go grab a bite to eat anyway
Marretta @ 134
Marretta – You are smart to wonder. Reflecting back I realize this is the time we were armingWarlords in Afghanistan. To my sisters I have to ask what it does to your soul. How do you get into bed with the guy? This is truly sleeping with the enemy.
Jonathan @ 138
My simple answer:
Medical Security. We need it, we deserve it, we vote for it. Period.
Mike Huckabee up with Shuster. He (Huckabee) seems incredibly likable *ducks*; am I nuts?
SeamusD @ 128 is correct
from physicist Stephen Jones.
plenty of images at http://physics911.net/stevenjones
the north tower also burned out of control on feb 13, 1975, and did not fall, and neither did WTC 7. amazing.
http://www.whatreallyhappened……_fire.html
eureka at 72 says-”As bad as it will be I think it’s much better than if they stay. The troops have full air support with one air base in southern Irak which has more traffic than any other airport in the world. Also we need to leave a whole lot of stuff behind (hopefully blow up a lot of weapons)..any argument to the contrary looks weak with so much news of weaponry lost and or provided to various factions of Irakis.”
i have a friend that just went over there, as a contractor, i tried to talk him out of it, no go, construction, he will be working on a base…….they are building on bases in a major way, all over iraq, many of them………daily…………..bases……building……..haven’t heard from him, so don’t know the latest, but that is what he was hired to do………….they aren’t pulling out, they are building, there were a number of bases that he could have gone to, all of them are building permanent structures right now……kbr…….he had friends already over there already doing the same thing for 80 thousand base pay………another guy, a friend of his, is delivering fuel in convoys, he makes 120,000………no rent, no utilities………no jobs, they’re doing it………insane, i say……….but they didn’;t listen to me. he is one of the most gifted musicians i’ve ever heard, would play for me in my living room………can build anything construction oriented……is a pacifist and a health food freak……….took the money….i am sick with it…….
CTuttle @ 174
Did you read what that “troll” Donald Douglas said about his reasons for commenting on “left wing blogs”? I went to his site, and pulled off what he had written a couple of threads back. He thinks we are a fifth column enemy bent on destroying America. There are other commenters with differing opinions…even we often disagree..when that happens it is usually hashed out in a polite and civil way. There is a difference. I welcome differing views myself.
LS at 169,
Do the rest of the lunatic fringe feel satiated? I’m not feeling it yet.
LS @ 170
I think the word they were looking for was “placate” not “satiate”. Either way, not placated or satiated until I see real results.
Boston1775 @ 183
Kind of guy you’d like to have a beer with?
Boston1775 @ 183
And he’d going on about how great Iraq is. Will the country swallow this stuff
EvilDrPuma @ 189
Not if you are Michael Moore…he kinda attacked him for being overweight…Moore is trying to lose weight, and I’m sure it is not easy.
EvilDrPuma @ 189
Shuster just said, “You ignore him at your own political peril.” I think he’s the kind of guy you might feel safe letting him babysit your kids.
CTuttle @173
Was in ROTC in the 1960s.
Guy in my ROTC unit, a hard-core pro-Vietnam war supporter, spent a lot of time — a bunch of time — reading Mao’s little red book.
Lesson from the 1960s: To defeat your enemy you must know your enemy. (Yeah, I know we took a hike from Vietnam. But the principle about knowing your enemy is valid.)
LS @ 191
From what I know of Huckabee, he might try applying some of that Christian principle of compassion. It’s not like he was never there himself.
Doesn’t sound very likable to me.
EvilDrPuma @ 194
It’s kinda like ex-smoker lecturing I guess. He’s a lot more likable than any neocon, that is for sure. Plus, he plays bass.
Hilo is getting more national recognition besides Flossie’s attention… Go, Hilo!!!
http://www.hawaiitribune-heral…..orts01.txt
Jonathon — Which is why the Goldwater “Conscience of a Conservative” tome is back in my “to read” pile again, along with my battered old copy of Buckley’s “God And Man At Yale.” Although today’s conservatives are so far from that, I can’t begin to detail…but I will when I get finished with my read throughs, believe me.
EvilDrPuma @ 189
From wiki:
I agree likeable does not equate to bright.
CTuttle @ 194
Are you damp?
LS @ 186
Eggsactly!!! I embrace them, too! As long as it’s civil…!!!
CTuttle @ 127
Am a sucker for tech toys. We gotta build new capacity to stay on top of events. If that simultaneously happens to be fun i can handle that :) sent from driveway
Whoa – Creationism? – That did it. I’m done on Huckabee.
Boston1775 @ 183
As an Arkansan let me say you are not nuts, just not informed.. He is a southern baptist minister who fits almost every bad stereotype that comes with that title in a truthy biased environment.
He won second place with 18 percent in Iowas straw poll with over half of his financial support coming from pro flat taxers.
Huckster is not very bright.. Don Young (R-AK) is one of his major DC fund raisers. and just today this whacko is taking heat for supporting him from the pulpit..
If the Huck makes it to a VP nomination, Dan Quayle will look much better.
New thread!
LS @ 186
He came over here representing himself as a misunderstood educator trying to promote dialog, when in truth, he is just another reactionary rightard so fearful of change that he would give up all our freedoms so that he and his friends can feel safe.
Loo Hoo. @ 167
Fact: Russert’s Meet The Press is Bushco’s reliable first choice for the dissemination of Republican propaganda.
Rove need only prepare to receive a big wet kiss (or better) from Pumpkinhead.
Schuster would do well to stop pretending that Russert will play gotcha with Karl. It only catapults the myth of a SCLM (so called liberal media).
When Pumkinhead gets finished with Rove, no one will believe that Rove is not a fine, friendly, chubby, bald fellow who loves his mother and country.
New threadiness…
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..a/#respond
Edwards is sounding great on Hardball. All the right answers imo.
Bustednuckles @ 130
Family, friends, lounging around on the beach, heaping plates of seafood, what’s not to like? It was a lovely week.
Good deal EG.
bob in hi at 179, you got it right……….but they ‘ain’t’ gonna win………
GSD @ 162
Of course, by “history” he means Karl Rove’s next book.
Bob in HI
quaker girl at 181 says-”Marretta – You are smart to wonder. Reflecting back I realize this is the time we were armingWarlords in Afghanistan. To my sisters I have to ask what it does to your soul. How do you get into bed with the guy? This is truly sleeping with the enemy.”
gimme a break……….plenty out there…..i know a few who sold out for health insurance.
i wonder sometimes what i would sell out for…….i wonder……..hmmmmmm………but haven’t yet………had my chances, and didn’t……….everyone has their selling point, it’s all a part of the bargain………i don’t fault them for it, just feel sorry for them, the payoff is a hard reality.
Loo Hoo. @ 61
This is my greatest concern too. Who is investigating this really? Webb and the other new Senators. But will they be able to expand the Commission to conduct this investigation?
Christy…that photo is worth several thousand words in expressing the ongoing duplicity of American ME policies and the blowback those policies have opened to repeatedly.
Showing such photos should/could become a home page feature of FireDogLake in these times and surely moreso with Iran being put in the crosshairs of American ME militarism and crazed ignorance.
These are indeed precarious times…I am thankful for the work FDL does…day after day.
Thanks Christy. Stay with it.
jayt @ 95
I think maybe the idea is that if they have nuclear power they will have little need to sell their oil to us (or the world).
But, fear of brown people of another religion might be part of it. It’s just that among the business Republicans there isn’t as much fear of the brown folks. So, it’s probably just about money.
Boston1775 @ 183
Not at all. He was a preacher or somethin’, so he has to be likable. But, that doesn’t make him the right guy to be president in a secular government.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 197
I haven’t seen very many speeches of Goldwater, but for some reason I get the feeling Hillary was quite sympatico with his style. As you read the book, I wonder if you could imagine Hillary saying the things he said.
Recently she’s acting as though she has the Dem nomination and has gone on to attacking Bush. That seems forward-thinking and confident, but I wonder if it isn’t just avoidance of the intellectual fight with other Dem candidates. She’s been quite the turtle, refusing to divulge her health care plan and saying very little new stuff. So, what I wonder is if Goldwater was somewhat like that too. Was he the type to studiously work out his ideas, pop out to rant a bit and then retreat into a shell and isolate himself. I can easily imagine Hillary doing that and it also fits with what I saw of her during Clinton I.
Her ideas are obviously not the same as Goldwater’s, but she’s so close to the vest of late that it’s hard to know what her ideas are, or if she even has any.
Gunga Djinn @ 168
You might be interested in these analyses by MIT Structural Scientists.
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/…..apers.html
www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
MarkH @ 216
Actually if they have nuclear power they would have less need to use it DOMESTICALLY, and could sell more of it…thus taking Iran out of a precarious economic condition. THAT recession is what the Bushies have long hoped would precipitate a popular revolution in Iran.
THEY WANT TO KEEP IRAN IMPOVERISHED!