The surge they say is working – and American support is supposed to be on the upswing …or so they say. O’Hanlon and Pollack are trotted out to make their faux critical comments about the positive developments and we all look towards September (or November?) when Gen Petraeus – who can’t even keep track of arms shipments – will deliver his glowing analysis of the surge and why such success means we must stay in Iraq for another 9-10 years.
While the inherent dishonesty of the O’Hanlon/Pollack “report” has been dissected by Glenn Greenwald and others here and elsewhere – and congressional visitors have noted that success does not look so successful when they can only move short distances around the Baghdad region via helicopter (as Congresswoman Jan Scharkowsky reported on a press briefing call this past Friday), we’re not supposed to notice.
Yet even a quick review of the news from Iraq shows how the disaster simply grows. Scan these headlines on Aswat Iraq’s English site – this does not look like success.
Or look at today’s report in The Guardian (UK) “Fatigue Cripples US Army in Iraq – hardly “positive” news.
Or turn to that “good war” in Afghanistan where our Nato allies are describing US forces as “Cowboys” and one British Senior Officer has asked that US Special Forces leave his district after yet more air strikes killed yet more Afghan civilians.
The same tactics of desperation are used over and over in Iraq. As Michael Schwartz accounts in his must-read analysis of American strategic failures in Iraq, the US military is shifting to a reliance on air power in a desperate attempt to lower US casualties and fabricate “positive” news for domestic consumption:
These localized applications of “overwhelming” force, when meeting sustained resistance, lead to the calling in of air power or, in some cases, artillery fire. A strategy guaranteed to kill and wound guerrillas and local inhabitants alike, destroy homes, generate more refugees, wreck local economies, and, in the end, create ghostly, uninhabitable former neighborhoods.
Ironically (but logically), while target communities have been crippled by such prolonged operations, both the insurgency and the jihadists have only grown stronger. The attacks swell the ranks of the insurgency, while a small but sufficient supply of embittered individuals become willing to sacrifice their lives to achieve some measure of revenge against the American occupation and/or its Shia allies.
(snip)
While all this goes on, desperate American military leaders have embraced, amplified, and expanded their anti-al-Qaeda-in-Iraq alliance with local guerrillas in al-Anbar Province — so much for dismantling Iraqi militias — and are lurching toward a new set of disasters.
(snip)
As Mahmoud Othman, a veteran Iraqi politician, put it, “The Americans are defeated. They haven’t achieved any of their aims.”
As the spin becomes ever more frantic, it’s up to us to keep reminding our “leadership” that we are paying attention to the real reports and we are not feeling more “positive.” We worked hard to elect a majority and we expect them to actually end the occupation – not after the next election or with some complicated cover-up that leaves tens of thousands of residual forces – we expect them to get us out – now.
Photo: A man stands in his house that was damaged during a U.S. military air strike in Baghdad’s Sadr City August 8, 2007. A U.S. helicopter strike in Baghdad’s crowded Shi’ite slum of Sadr City killed 13 people and wounded eight early on Wednesday, hospital sources said. U.S. military officials did not immediately respond to queries about the incident. REUTERS/Kareem Raheem (IRAQ)
h/t to Jerid – thanks!
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hmm
Zed
G’day!
In the Middle East, something’s gotta give.
Have we created a mid east “Hotel California” you can check out but never leave.
Hiya Siun!
This is exactly what I wrote about today.
petedownunder @ 3
G’day mate
argosfalcon @ 7
Good evening y’all!
At this point the view here is that this Middle East violence is going to spread.
snarKassandra @ 8
yes this is life on a swiftly tilting planet.
With all the news of arms shipments caught or misplaced one has to wonder how many guns and other weapons are slipping through and why?
Jan Schakowsky, D-IL (9th).
Imagine being an Iraqi and never knowing if there will be an American air strike. Reverse the situation and imagine if it were happening here. I will never understand this.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 9
Yep. The long slow fuze has been winding its way through the sands of ancient Mesopotamia.
There are many flashpoints.
*Turks and Iraqi Kurds.
*Israel and Hezbollah.
*Fatah and Hamas.
*Israel and Hamas.
*Israel and Syria.
*Lebanon(renewed civil war)
*Pakistan(internal strife)
*Afghanistan(internal strife)
*Saudi Arabia(internal strife)
*US/Iraq(see all of the above).
-GSD
Those neo-cons sure did calm the region down….(Insert Borat style “Not” here.)
Like so many bad ideas or virus’s, it’s a sellers market in the death and destruction biz. But more fun’s afoot and soon I would guess.
Evening everybody…sometimes the dog days of summer are, in fact, dogs.
TROOPS
HOME
NOW
Economic calamity here, and chaos in the sands covering the world’s most valuable pools of oil. Now I ask you… what’s that recipe for?
Oops. So many options I forgot the biggie.
*US/Iran.
-GSD
Mutant Poodle @ 16
Now I have a great affection for dogs, especially the sleeping variety, perhaps we should leave them alone.
The NYT appears to have finally figured it out.
Better late than never, or too little too late?
And if there weren’t enough fuckery in the world already …
The Yankees trail the Sox by only four games.
The media, as usual, is conflating motion with progress. General Petraeus now has one and only realistic objective: to create enough illusion of progress that congress will give the surge another Friedman. Nothing more and nothing less, all other claims are smokes.
burnspbesq @ 22
Bwaaaahhahahahah!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 18
The U.S., as the Founders designed it, is dead.
There is now the task of re-building.
The toughest sell for Petraeus and Bush, with their September Follies pitch next month?…
…the repub congers with their political asses on the line next year. :o)
Even if they move one step away from the gangplank the day after Petraeus talks up the war; give it one month, max, and they’ll be scuttling right back over to put a foot on it. :o)
Hi gang …
I really hope folks will read Schwartz’ piece at TomDispatch … he gets to much so right.
Events overwhelm me. I know every generation felt that the world was going to hell in a hand basket, but I feel in our case things definitely are. Matters are aided and abetted by too many determined to see things brought to an apocalyptic conclusion and I believe they very well may be on track to achieve their ends.
the US military is shifting to a reliance on air power in a desperate attempt to lower US casualties and fabricate “positive” news for domestic consumption:
Seymour Hersh: Warning – grisly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=
nonplussed @ 27
Shorter Nonplussed:
Pat Robertson has a chubby thinking about world events.
-GSD
And Cheney and the rest of the neo-nuts keep pushing and pushing for an attack on Iran. And the Secretary of State is impotent. And Petraeus is poised to punk us good. And then there is the Israeli military card. And we’re threatening to bomb Pakistan.
GDS if the goal is to light up the central Asian republics and the greater middle east, what better way. Like an arsonist starting smaller but long smoldering fires, waiting until conditions are right. But in a way that gives too much credit to those in the clown car, but when the circus comes to town they have to bring the elephants.
argosfalcon at 5 says-”
Have we created a mid east “Hotel California” you can check out but never leave.”
so many comments here i could comment on…i counted eight,and it was only up to eighteen…….. i might catch up on them, they are all valuable and hit a nerve….but this one…….argos, you should never doubt your voice, as i know you do, but don’t……..and i HATE the song hotel california, because of its inevitableness, its hopelessness…….but you pulled it out for a usefulness that it never had before……in my book……
Siun @ 27
It says I don’t have the right program to show this. tp://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174827/michael_schwartz_benchmarking_iraq_for_disaster
Oklahoma kiddo @ 30
“Impotent” is certainly an interesting word choice in that context … but I also think you’re assuming several facts about SecState that have never been in evidence. Beginning with the implicit assumption that she is capable of independent thought.
Melissa – thanks for catching my typo and Cassie – I’ll check the link now …
jayt @ 29
The irony, of course, is that Hersh wrote that appraisal of the change in tactics over two years ago (May, 2005), and while it should have been a signal to other reporters to start keeping track of what was going on, pretty much nada.
And, more irony, this was Nixon’s answer to the problem in Vietnam. Just start bombing the shit out of everything. If you can’t win hearts and minds on the ground, make them fear you from the air….
We are beyond brinkmanship. The only way we can “win” is by using nuclear weapons. The impression is that the plans are already in place.
Cassie, Add an ht to the beginning of that link addy.
burns at 21 says-”
The NYT appears to have finally figured it out.
Better late than never, or too little too late?”
as you have said from your comments, it’s never to late to become enlightened……….
burnspbesq @ 35
I subscribe to the concept of “equal insults”. ;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
“Win” means you have to have an opponent. Who is our opponent on whom we can drop a nuke?
Cassie – that link just did not want to link but it’s fixed now. Something kept happening in Wordpress that wiped out the first “ht” of “http” everytime I set it up … weird! and thanks for the catch!
After all those years in Vietnam, haven’t we learned that the Army can almost always convince any visiting VIP in any war zone that it’s winning, as long as the Army controls the itinerary? Jeeez.
Siun, excellent post! I would like to quibble about one point, the Army is taught to utilize ‘overwhelming firepower’, either Air strikes or Artillery! This is were I believe the fallacy is exposed! The Army is not in the business of nation-building, it’s primary function is to eradicate the ‘enemy’, period! It is the State Department’s function to foster a ‘democracy’! It is no surprise that we’re failing miserably in Iraq and Afghanistan because there is no viable follow-on support from the State Department!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
Well strategic use of biological weapons would be a good fit you get the resources and you can blame those unbelievers, I mean right now poor sanitation, limited access to clean water and health care, if something happened who would know and a great I didn’t do escape clause.
Never thought the US Army would go for “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life” as a theme song.
According to Reuters (here) the Swiss Army and the International Red Cross celebrated the 30th anniversary of the Additional Protocols to the Geneva Conventions by hosting a boot camp for high ranking officers of 60 nations to refresh their memories of the rules of war (how to treat civilians). I couldn’t tell from the article whether the U.S. participated or not; doubt it.
Air strikes in civilian neighborhoods of an occupied country= war crimes. You wouldn’t know it from the MSM, though.
Jonathan @ 41
Give that man a Kewpie doll! He’s figured out something that three generations of American military leadership can’t seem to get their heads around, i.e., all that shiny air hardware can’t help you win over the hearts and minds of a civilian population when you use it to bomb the shit out of them.
There has been a bizarre new talking point from the righty’s as of late. It is to the effect that the anti-war folks “Don’t care about Iraqis.”
If the US pulls out they say that genocide will ensue and the anti-war folks(65-70% of Americans) just don’t care about the Iraqis.
This argument from the same quarter that was laughing about “shock and awe”. That pooh-poohed any reports of Iraqi civilian casualties. That claimed that Abu Ghraib was the equivalent of “frat pranks”. That advocated nuking Iraq to get rid of the insurgents, carpet bombing, you name it.
The never ending and shifting lines of argument are tough to keep up with.
-GSD
Jonathan @ 42
Perceived opponents. And will “win” nothing. ;0)
Jonathan @ 25
I discussed that precise idea with workmates back in 1992. There is no great simple improvement, though I think Republicans have considered provoking a crisis to force a new Constitutional Congress. Of course, they may have intended to have all the cards for that pok*r game.
Ladies and gentlemen. Please bow your heads in respect.
Tommy Thompson is ending his run for president.
-GSD
Laura … precisely.
I asked Rep Scharkowsky during the press call if they had been briefed on the bombing of residential neighborhoods and civilian populations. She said there was a little discussion in Afghanistan but that in Iraq it was not mentioned – then she said “and no one asked.”
GSD @ 51
Gosh. I wonder why.
kirk murphy at 47 says-”
Never thought the US Army would go for “Always Look on the Bright Side of Life” as a theme song.”
or ’save it, save it for a rainy day’…….
GSD @ 52
Umm, I don’t think Thompson was actually running. More like crawling toward the Presidency.
GSD @ 49
That, mon ami, is the point. They have managed to create a state of affairs where we are always playing defense. That needs to stop. I’m not sure what the equivalent of forcing a turnover is in this context, but we need to do it, and then we need to run the fucking ball down their fucking throats. [/bad sports analogy]
It is to the effect that the anti-war folks “Don’t care about Iraqis.”
Interesting progression from Repub’s talking about how the Iraqi’s have never even thanked us for all we’ve done for them.
Twain @ 54
What has interested me — but I’m not a political student — is why the good people of Wisconsin ever elected Tommy Thompson governor. Was it just about welfare? If so, why?
Siun,
An excellent observation. Everything that we assumed we knew was predicated the assumption that underlying their actions were both reason and good will. To assume otherwise was to throw what we knew about America away. That was, and remains, the central problem with dealing with these people.
They prey on our feelings, that after all is said and done we ARE the good guys. Well, as Dylan observed recently, Things Have Changed.
Instead of dealing with these rational observations of irrational actions it would be much better if we could simply start over and start questioning the assumptions that we are predicating our own judgements of their behavior upon. The fault lies now with them, for, in their minds, they are doing exactly what they believe they should be doing. The problem lies with us for we are still giving them the benefit of the doubt by not questioning the essential truths that underlie their actions.
Reality: they are simply there because it seemed like a good idea to test out some of their pet theories. When these theories failed they have NO FUCKING CLUE what to do and are too embarrassed to admit their own ignorance and are constantly tap dancing to distract us from the realization that they are ignorant fools who are bankrupting our country, killing our citizens, and ruining an entire country.
Siun @ 53
Yes, I caught that it your post earlier this week. No one asked. No one at all, included Rep Scharkowsky. Have you caught a single elected U.S. official decrying our war crimes? I haven’t.
One has to wonder how in the world anyone in the Bush family sleeps at night? Don’t they hear the ghosts of the dead children of Iraq crying?
burnspbesq @ 57
It might be simpler than one thinks. If just one candidate had asked, early on, “aren’t you tired of living in fear of your government? Aren’t you tired of being threatened by your own government? Aren’t you tired of liars controlling your lives?
My guess is that the response would have been overwhelming….
Jonathan @ 59
The good people of Wisconsin?????
You mean the same people who keep electing James Sensenbrenner to Congress, and gave Ann Althouse tenure at their state university’s law school?
Those good people?
The whole thing is, in whats left of my mind is whats the creepiest thing the ring of tall foreheads around little boots can do, what the hardest to identify, the hardest to trace, and the most lethal. It’s not depleted uranium, its not the nukes makes the oil hard to use don’t you know. You have to get rid of the people, no one whats to look at that option, but its easy to simulate, even easier to make happen, and how would anyone ever find out.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 62
No they don’t. Because George W. Bush is a psychopath. I wonder about Laura. But not a whole lot.
jayt-”
It is to the effect that the anti-war folks “Don’t care about Iraqis.”
Interesting progression from Repub’s talking about how the Iraqi’s have never even thanked us for all we’ve done for them.”
someone posted this earlier….an iraqi, at the national library…it is his last post….
http://www.bl.uk/iraqdiary07.html
Now putting tinfoil hat in a safe place.
burnspbesq @ 64
Russ Feingold??? ;-)
burnspbesq @ 64
Gee, I take it back. I can understand about Sensenbrenner. He comes from a particular district. Ann Althouse? Shame, shame on the University of Wisconsin Law School. Unbelievable. Disgusting, really.
Jonathan @ 66
How would you like to be the guy that she dumped to start going out with GWB? Talk about yer low self-esteem …
Re-run of MTPress with Markos and Ford now on MSNBC, left-coasters.
argosfalcon @ 68
After your last comment, ya need to keep it on…!!!
CTuttle @ 69
Blind squirrel etc.
Siun, thank you for linking to Michael Schwartz’s excellent article. I noticed that he says an estimated 1 million households now are headed by widows.
He didn’t note the total pop–I looked it up on Wiki. In 2006, it was estimated at just under 27 million. 1 in 27 Iraqis are bereaved women heading households. Imagine that in our home towns.
burnspbesq @ 71
With some hindsight, I suspect the fellow would be relieved.
I used to think the lunatics were in charge. I was wrong. It’s the maniacs who are in charge.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 77
The lunatics are advising the maniacs….
argosfalcon … I have come to wonder if the plan is to kill or drive out as many Iraqis as possible – leave a minimal “government,” just enough people to maintain the oil fields, etc …
at the same time I think the US military is not just broken but insanely incompetent and flailing about for a strategy …
no matter what, it’s the Iraqis who suffer for it
Democrats, time for that dreaded math lesson again.
I know, I know, nobody likes doing their math homework, but if you don’t, how are you going to be able to count?
Ok, enough whining and cringing! Time to show and tell! Follow along with me:
US Troop Surge x Iraqi Political Compromise = Success or Failure.
No no students! Do not use Rover’s math! It doesn’t work…EVER!
The math problem is not:
US Troop Surge plus Iraqi Political Compromise = Success or Failure.
Class, this is not addition problem. This is multiplication problem!
You Nancy, in the front row, can you do the math?
Nancy, stand up straight there honey and tell us the answer to the math question:
US Troop Surge x Zero Iraqi Political Compromise = Failure.
Now Harry, yes you in the back row, can you tell the class why Nancy got the answer she did?
X times Zero is always Zero!
Very good class! Now I want you to write down the answer to the math question…hmmm…let’s write it down in your very best handwriting and then we’ll post it so everyone can see.
Even Junya. No no Junya! Stop listening to Deadeye. Closing your eyes does not change the answer.
Junya, I think it’s about time we had your Parent/Teacher conference. You don’t seem to be getting this stuff at all.
Unless you can do this math Junya, you’re not ever going to amount to much. And I’m going to make sure that everyone knows!
Duncan Hunter was on a talking-head show with Sestak this morning. Hunter is pushing very hard the line that Iran Is Getting Nukes. Listening to him, you’d think they’re only a kilo short of a hundred-megaton bomb aimed at Washington. The neocons really want to bomb Iran, and I think they want to turn it into a glass parking lot, even if they have to lie all the way to the ninth circle of Dante’s Inferno.
Laura Doty @ 76
In a culture that does not think highly of women, at this time. But I’m so easily outraged . It’s war in all it’s ugly glory.
Siun @ 79
The current generation of U.S. military leaders were trained to defeat Warsaw Pact forces in Germany. Any surprise they’re a bit confused?
Mad Dogs – you assume that there is a legitimate Iraqi government to make political compromises – rather than a puppet regime propped up by Washington.
Mad Dog,
You are still using the same set of desired outcomes as they are. Step back and examine these outcomes and the picture will become more clear.
If the purpose of the surge is to confuse the electorate then it is working perfectly, for example.
P J Evans @ 81
And Sestak said? [LIAR! /snark]
Siun @ 79
Well, for four years, the military has adopted the same urban warfare tactics as the Israelis have used in the occupied territories, and it’s been my contention that the Israelis have done as they have in order to make life so miserable for the Palestinians that they would leave voluntarily.
But, I don’t think it was a conscious decision on the part of the U.S. to adopt those tactics. They simply saw the IDF as the experts in Middle Eastern urban warfare and went to them for advice, not thinking about the underlying strategy behind those tactics. In that sense, the displacement of Iraqis is an inevitable consequence, but not necessarily an intended one.
burnspbesq @ 83
It is true the army is trained to fight the last war. The lessons from Iraq will be applied in the next conflict.
It is like a tragic ground-hog day movie. Military progress… breathing room for political reconciliation…. new strategy…. front line troops stand down… concentrate on training Iraqis… more reconstruction projects online… just one more FU… victory is possible if we stick it out…
Repeat in six months.
But *solely* marginal military progress when everyone, including the Very Serious People on teevee have said that there is no *solely* military solution, with either marginal or non-marginal military progress.
No poliitical reconciliation. The score on the recent report card was D- on political reconciliation, and they cheated on the grade.
Reconstruction projects fall apart or are abandoned as soon as they are done, and serious regress on water electricity and oil.
And how many times can ’stand down and concentrate on training Iraqi forces’ be a new strategy?
How many times can we clear hold and build (or whatever) and have no response from the Iraqi government and then we do the same thing over again with a new name attached?
What victory is… is completely undefined.
This is the fourth of fifth time around. Who cannot notice this? Everyone notices this, except the Very Serious People on TV and the big papers.
Cheney and Bush can spend billions of bucks and kill lots of people. But they can’t abandon the crony capitalism angle, they can’t relinquish control to UN or true multinational coalition. They can’t even discuss conditions that would make it possible or attractive for UN and other countries to contribute meaningfully. Can’t even have a stinking conference, or prepare for, or consider, regional conference to talk about broader issues, reach regional agreements that might put pressure on neighbors and Iraqi factions to cooperate.
They can talk about starting a new war that might endanger the whole occupation force, though.
That is the real scandal. These incompetent warmongers are digging a strategic national security bottomless pit, killing people and wasting money, cause they want to achieve some undefined victory their way. And they shovel repetitious bull that everyone sees through. And they won’t do one dang thing that the average fool would know to do to try improve the situation.
The Democrats need to point that out if we are to get out of this mess. Timely troop redeployment is very important. But the bigger picture is also important.
burnspbesq @ 84
well they once had warsaw pact A
PC’s and fighters they gamed it at Fort Irwin and other places, are you saying our military leaders lack creativity (snark)
Well … here’s a sterling example of military justice.
This one’ll make you want to hurl … or hurl something at the nearest wall … or both.
The feeling here is that the neo-cons are interested in eliminating the ‘unwashed’. The Bush crowd is concerned with oil and empire.
For those of us who lived through Nam, we have seen it before. There is a natural progression. And anyone who served there knows what it is. In addition to all the other things we think we have to do, we have to start taking care of the boys and girls who were sent there. PTSD is no joke. Sleep disorders are no joke, broken marriages and lost jobs are no joke. And the king and his thugs keep cutting the money for the VA. Well, screw em. We sent our kids over there, and when they get back, we have to help em….and let me tell you it ain’t gonna be easy.
Consider for a moment, if you will, Lindsley, she’s white, she a corporal, she’s married to another corporal, Nathan, he’s black, and they have a little girl…well…she’s not so little now. Her name is Keshia. Lindsly’s mother takes Kisha half time, and Nathan’s mother takes her the other half…and Kisha knows what an airplane flight is, ’cause Lindsly’s mother lives in Minnesota, and Nathan’s mother lives in New Jersey. Kisha is old enough to know what’s going on. When she askes either of her grandmother’s about her parents, Her grandma’s just cry. Oh, yeah, and Lindsley is in Iraq, and Nathan is in Afghanastan. Neither are allowed to say anything about where they are, what they’re doing, or when they’ll be home.
Worse, Lindsly and Nathan have been married for four years, and have been together where there is privacy and a bed exactly four times in the last 14 months. All that horror, and strain, and they see each other four times in 14 months. This is the fourth tour for both of them…..and they are both fighting as hard to keep their marriage together over a long distance as they are fighting the King’s war. And the King just cut the money for the VA again. Lindsley, who used to be tough as nails when it came to the army spends most of her nights crying on her cot in the 3 hours sleep she gets…..you don’t see a psychiatrist in the army. Nathan, well, Nathan’s father was in Nam, and his grandfather was at Omaha Beach.” He just bites his lip and gets real quiet sometimes. Anyone who served knows what he’s thinking. What are we gonna do about them? We sent em there. We ripped Kisha out of her mother’s arms, we took away a promising career as an ad exec that Nathan was starting on. What are we gonna do? We owe them. And the government is figuring out a way not to pay them.
Before anyone sends money or asks me how they can help, let me level with you. Everything I just wrote (in this case) is FICTION. The Lindsley, and Nathan in my story don’t exist. Not in my story.
But friends, lemmie tell you. They exist. They are the husbands and wives out there, the boy-friends, and girl-friends, and all the Significant others who are as much prisoners over there as the people of Iraq. And we owe them. And the current King, and the next President isn’t gonna pay them back. They don’t know how. Look at the shape Walter Reid is in….and they responded with a publicity fix.
It IS our problem. And that is how we can support our troops. Bring em home. And let em stay home, and don’t open the can of worms that you’ll open if there’s a draft. The main one being, that I wouldn’t blame any young man who refuses to go unless all girls 18 or older are drafted too. It’s only fair. Fuck the rules about combat. The women I served with had more “balls” than some of the men.
I just want to cry, and I don’t cry that easily.
Cynic
Montag – good point! the duplication of Israeli tactics is stunning – and criminal.
Siun @ 80
It looks like your suspicions may be correct.
We just passed another milestone in Iraq, wonder why the administration hasn’t mentioned it?
Siun @ 85
Puppets or Legitamati, the results don’t change. X times Zero is still Zero.
Cynic @93
Are you a Viet Nam vet?
If so, where, when, and what unit?
http://pressesc.com/news/99409…..s-invasion
Sorry, forgot the link.
And have you noticed the Israeli government has been flying under the radar lately? The impression is there are plans afoot.
Back during 2002 when the Bush/Cheney regime was stacking the deck in order to get to what it wanted truth,facts and potential downside awareness views about Iraq were ignored and banished.
Many Americans four years later now see how going into Iraq was based on lies and a raft of very dubious desires.
The truth and facts are still being withheld or brushed aside by the Bush/Cheney regime.
American presence in Iraq puts all Americans in the same category that Hitlers Germany or Imperial Japan of the 1930’s and WW2 came to reside in as being criminal/illegal war aggressors.
Americans have no moral claim of/to being the good guys in Iraq. And all Americans must accept that and understand we all are guilty of war crimes in Iraq.
We did not pardon the Germans or Japanese after WW2 from being accountable for what had taken place during the 30’s or WW2.
We now too must fully relent to being wrong to have invaded Iraq based on lies,bad motives and arrogant ignorance.
There are war criminals now in WashDC that should be made to answer for those crimes.
Americans getting out of Iraq should be the clear choice.It is the only valid,credible choice remaining.
Sooner.Better.
Americans have much to answer for in Iraq as is and to insist staying on in Iraq reveals just how shallow and poorly founded our ruling class is and the American militarism it now condones or desires to prolong in Iraq.
That at this point in 2007 for WashDC to be seeking to surge,stay on or become a long stay presence in Iraq is criminal conduct based on illegal war making and American aggression in Iraq.
It is that simple.
What part does WashDC still not understand about this being so?
So we deal with Iran and Israel takes care of Syria. Neat.
I blame Clinton. She wants to be leader of our party and cannot even apologize for her original vote or lead the charge for full withdrawal. This not only gives cover to the Blue Dogs but compels them to stay in line with the neocons.
Off to see da wizzard…
DWD @ 86
I be not confused about the outcome. Most grade-school kids would not be confused by the outcome. X times Zero is still Zero.
Oh, please, let this be true.
montag @ 88
If you look at who the architects of the Iraq invasion were, it’s obvious that these tactics and policies were imported: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/M…..0Ak07.html
Eureka Springs @ 102
As I see it, apology is inappropriate.
In my opinion, it was wrong to attack Iraq. I don’t care about the outcome.
I do not feel confident a President HRC would be even-handed in solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Jonathon, She has to admit it was a mistake in order to lead us out of it, imo.
Eureka – good point… but where is the netroots outrage and pushback to Clinton? the demand that the other candidates do better? The insistence that the candidates disclose the real numbers behind their residual troops plans?
sigh …
Siun @ 80
IMHO, they are not merely flailing about for a strategy but rather for an objective. What do they hope realistically to achieve other than to stay for yet another Friedman, thereby, sparing the Decider the agony of admitting defeat.
Well, yes and no. To us it appears that they are lying obfusticating like hell but the truth is that if the purpose of this phony maneuver was to buy time before making decisions then it did work. You can say that any number times zero will still be zero but if the desired outcome is a problem that takes a while to figure out that the answer will still be zero . . .
I am not disagreeing with you. I am only saying that we have to stop the pretense of judging their actions on rational bases. They are not rational, they are idealogues – lunatics – who refuse to let reality interfere with their belief systems.
Cynic, I lived in that world, and of all the mistakes we are making now we made then, that is for me the hardest thing to see. I know what happens and I have paid a price. But its up to others to help and stop this madness, yet this is not the first nor will it be the last adventure down this long nightmare. Having lost so many friends to the silent war (the war that lives in your head) I hope that some how we can stop the suffering for every one. But just an old fool who still lives a bit too fast, looks at pretty girls, and dreams of cold beer at the beach.
Eureka Springs @ 109
Mistake, yes. Apology (gee, I screwed up), worthless.
montag @ 88
I think Moshe Dayan’s comment after touring South Vietnam kinda fits here:
The entire article called How Not To Fight Terrorism by Martin van Creveld – Hebrew University of Jerusalem is a very interesting, and telling read.
From the land of the Prophets, what else could you expect?
Of course the surge is working. And it will be working even better, come the September report to Congress.
Then of course, the Democratics will piss & moan for two, maybe three weeks to make it clear to the public that they aren’t happy about Iraq.
Then of course, they (the Congress) will give Bush everything he asks for and more, pissing & moaning all the while.
And life will go on, Bush winning his and the Congress winning theirs. And birds will chirp and bees will buzz and butterflies will butter. And fat-assed Americans everywhere will flip their channel from Funniest Home Videos to Idol. And the sound of Cheez Doodles crunching will fill the air, and all will be good in America.
If for no other reason than because ending our wars in Iraq & Afghanistan would put 500,000 people in the unemployment lines overnight.
And THAT is not gonna happen.
Siun @ 110
Evidently they all ate Tweetys koolaid flavored poll numbers and just accept his word that she is to be the anointed one.
I don’t believe we ever let up the bombing of Iraq. It has gone on for 2 decades.
This entire adventure is an outrage. When will sanity prevail? Probably when it’s too late.
Where are the good UFOs when you really need them?
Everyone, whether from the Republican Party or from my party who voted to attack Iraq has much blood on their hands.
Jonathan @ 108
In the long run, the (overall) outcome is the only thing that matters. But, God, the shit that happens in the meantime is abhorrent!
It’s very hard for the right to admit we are losers… that our military is good at one thing… bombing and destruction.
And John and Jane Q Public can’t face the fact that we are losers… Yea they want the troops home but the language of retreat and defeat and we’re sorry is unutterable.
And I am so damn sick and tired of the lame excuse that ‘if I had known we were getting bad intel, I would not have voted with Bush’.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 119
Yes. From the Gulf War to the so-called Iraq War. Terrible, terrible decisions to go to war.
And Bibi is coming back to be the head guy in Israel again.
And if the left uses the correct description of what we have done, and what has been done to us… we are branded commies or traitors or yellow or weak or anti American or unpatriotic.
This is a very hard pill to swallow for American and they just can’t seem to get on with it.
burnspbesq @ 106
Heh, He can give it, but, he can’t take it…
“Romney, the lone GOP holdout, has posted more videos on his YouTube channel (283 as of Sunday afternoon) than any other presidential candidate, Republican or Democrat. But he has resisted the debate, in which videotaped questions are submitted through YouTube.”
SanderO … I think the unwillingness to admit defeat spreads across the political spectrum in the US … just look at the ways so many D’s scramble to find excuses to keep funding this defeat.
H just now noticed these two headlines one above the other, over at HuffPo:
The point is that these guys are used to talking out their asses and not being called on it. But now that they are candidates in the age of youtube …
DWD @ 113
Yup, the Beyond Crazy Wing of the Totally Lunatic Party.
SanderO @ 125
SanderO — One thing liberating about having served (and having volunteered to serve) in Viet Nam is not having to take any of this shit.
Re HRC -I’ll take a sensible set of goals a serious long run vision and an outline of plan re Iraq over an apology any day. It is not a lack of apology that bothers me, it is sense that she is posturing. I get the feeling that she is pretending to run from DLC wrong thinking, cowardice and/or cluelessness on Iraq, or trying to run from that, but deep down it is still there. Which would be bad.
I don’t buy the excuse that it is bad to state a vision and and overall strategic goal, and some ideas about how to achieve that goal? Where the hell does she think long run policy goals should be re Iraq and some ideas about how to achieve them? You know, the vision thing. I remember when that was considered important. Guess its out of fashion, and I am getting old.
The depraved and degraded empty shells in the foreign policy establishment and TV types will have a field day with her if she does that… They will spout horse race and meta meta crap about how it is a ‘gaffe’, and is she really Savvy and Very Serious. But HRC can use it as an excuse to get in their faces and tell them to stop being infants. if she thinks she needs to look tough, well, that would impress me.
I don’t care so much about an apology.
Siun @ 128
You have an excellent point there Siun! Americans don’t do failure well.
With the notable exception of Junya. He’s been successful at failure his entire life. One of history’s greatest under-achievers.
However low one sets the bar, Junya can go lower.
Siun,
I reject that defeat tag that we seem to throw around so easily. If the purpose of our fight was to conquer Iraq, then we won. If our purpose was to become an occupying conquerer, then we failed; but I doubt that most Americans would care if we do not excel at such activities. This is a small segment from my book about the Holocaust. Is this what you want American soldiers to do? For this is what
successful occupying armies do . . .
Siun @ 111
They all look at the floor when Bill Richardson sez he’d get the troops out by 12/07, essentially right away. Unless Joementum Biden is there; he sez “You can’t get 160,000 troops out in six months!” Then the others all nod.
Watch next debate. It’s what happens. Then there’s no more discussion.
wesgpc @131
HRC postures?
I can imagine the repubs, just hoping she gets the nomination.
Well Its a war, we don’t see its cost, but its a war, we don’t see the dead but is a war. I have stopped watching those that play with life as if it were a game, it’s a war. I could flood the lower Mississippi with my tears, and not help ease the pain inflicted in my name. It’s a war and war builds nothing but hate, those that dance with words say this or that, but what happens on the ground in several places on the planet right now is war, we have to take a stand in our own lives, and say with fierce conviction No Not in my name.
But hey our leaders would never ask for such a costly thing if it were necessary or prolong it because it was inconvenient, or difficult. And now its time for my pills, now where did I put that hat.
Can’t find the question now, …Sorry. Jonathan @ 98… but it’s late. 4th Battalion-47th Infantry. 1967 Dinh Tuong Province – Rach Tra Tan River and a bunch of others.
Nasty business.
My family doesn’t really know what I did, I mean they know I was there, but it made a pacifist outta me, real fast. DROS’D and joined Vietnam Veterans against the war. Sorry if that offends some people. But that’s that way it goes.
If that was your group, you’ll remember me by my nick name “Big Mouth.”
Who likes failure? No one likes failure. Cheney and Bush own the failure on this one. That is why the pundits and national affairs press and bankrupt mainstream national security wonks are doing and saying dangerously transparently silly and disprovable things. They know they own the failure too. The need lots of smoke for cover. Otherwise they might have to get real jobs soon.
Lot a Democrats own it too, but organized group has to pick themselves up and forge ahead. Who else can do that by next election time? You know the consequences of not doing that: look at the clown show over at the GOP primary.
Look at it this way, Americans don’t like failure, and I think most people have a sneaking suspician that electing one of those guys would be a very dangerous and humiliating failure. So need to reassure population that they are smart cookies.
cynic @ 138
1st of the 5th cav here I core 73 to 75, and no one remembers ghosts like me.
argosfalcon @ 140
Me neither, but the way I see it, we have an obligation. We might not be carrying guns, but we have kids coming home, whose backs no one has. I thought we might get there backs!
Small reality check re: Hillary Clinton. She supported the Iraq for nearly 4 years, longer than conservative William F. Buckley or neocon Francis Fukuyama.
What does that say about her ability to see, understand, and do something about our nation’s problems?
Second, the apology to us out here in the country for Iraq is a character issue. It is about what we often say is missing from the Republicans: accountability. That Hillary like the current occupant of the Oval Office can not admit and apologize for a mistake may make her Presidential to some. To me, it makes her more Bush-like, hardly something I want to see in the next President.
Cut the crap. Get out of Iraq. Now.
cynic @ 141
I hear you if no one else will I’ll be there, there our brothers and sisters.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 143
What he said!
cynic @ 143
How long would it actually take us to get out? I haven’t a clue but would appreciate anyone answering who knows something about this.
cynic and argos – thank you for bringing the voices of Viet Nam vets to this discussion – it’s very valuable.
Head of Hillarys DLC, Harold Ford, was such an impressive man on TV today. I can’t wait for Hillary to fill all kinds of positions with men and women just like Harold.
leave no one behind, out now
argosfalcon @ 144
Apology.
Of course the “me neither” above was meant as a “no one remembers me either.” Not that I don’t remember you…I never met you, but I’ll always remember. You guys rocked.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 125
Operation Iraqi Freedom is the son of “The Project for a New American Century,” which is the son of “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm,” which was prepared for Netanyahu by the same case of neocon evil-doers who lied us into Iraqi Freedom.
for all of them out two years, current planning.Twain @ 146
Why would poor and middle class Americans vote for the super wealthy to be President? These are people who can’t really relate to any of our issues. Certainly not mine. I look at straw polls and the fix is in. The candidate has to be movie star good looking or a film/TV star and wealthy. Why? So the front guy can win under the guise, we the people were too stupid to vote for a smart candidate so we went for looks. Really :-/
Coming down with a head cold really makes me grumpy. Even when I see Obama I see a white guy. I like his wife though.
cynic @ 150
thats ok
Twain – Richardson estimates that we could get out in 3 months or so, leaving equipment behind. Mil folks I know give estimates more like 6-10 months and point out that getting out is going to be a nasty business with one route available and that route heads south through Basra where British troops are being “picked off” acc to UK reports.
What we ignore is that the Iraqis are quite skilled fighters (making the train the Iraqi forces more bs than I can cope with) and we have been a brutal occupation force. I expect them to exact a price for what we have done … as we head out.
Y’know, Petraeus isn’t all that, really. I mean he’s a tactician and a teacher. He wrote a book about counter-insurgency. Then he wrote an WaPo op-ed just before the 2004 election, saying how well we were progressing in Irak. Then he got a big promotion, another star, and an assignment to train Irakis and give them 190,000 weapons. Which he lost track of.
So why anyone expects anything other than a glowing report in September is beyond me. What’s the anti-war, anti-surge position going to be then? Because we don’t really need to wait for September. We know what he’s gonna say.
Eureka Springs @ 148
Taken down quite effectively by a guy who started a website. Jeebus.
jayt @ 29
Oh, Jayt. Thanks. If you didn’t see this when jayt first posted it, be sure to see it…
Siun @ 153
Thanks for the answer and the words “sitting ducks” come to mind. What a horror it is going to be to top off this present horror.
argosfalcon @ 152
The US Military is an amazing machine. If our equipment is as badly damaged as is rumored, we could pull our troops out by air, and blow up our equipment in place. Leave the “contractors” to cover our kids backs as we leave. It’d probably take six months to a year once the political will was in place to do it. Just start rotating people home, and not sending them back. Fill with contractors…..and then let them get their own asses out. That’s cold, but someone’s gotta cover our kids. You got any idea how many people you can fit in a C5 leaving in the middle of the night. And it’s not paperwork anymore. It’s computer disks.
Siun @ 155
Basra is already lost. We’ll have to go out through Turkey, if they’ll let us. Or Saudi Arabia, they are our friends, right?
argosfalcon @ 150
Why 2 years?
Some of this conversation points out why the issue of lying the US into war is important, and the incompetence is important, and the inability to describe what the hell we are trying to do there in specific concrete terms is important. All are important issues, to be discussed with as much good will and as constructively as possible. Which will be difficult, I admit.
Who the hell knows what Cheney or Bush think is victory? Seriously, that is a question about a fact. It is totally unknown, it has always been unknown. Bush and Cheney have had many opportunities to define it but they won’t. Or they say silly falsehoods that even the cowardly press can’t ignore anymore.
So I think worrying too much about whether this or that is a failure, or whether the US population will react to failure or mess is pointless. It is a mug’s game. We are being played.
Suppose the real goal is just to have mega air bases and troops in Iraq to pursue asinine and futile geopolitical and energy security games which require threatening to kill mass quantities as the first resort. Well, then you know there will never be victory no matter what happens. As some one said, in that case, it is the imperialism, stupid.
If the goal is to turn the US into a imperial power based solely on violence, then they can never declare victory, because staying there to bully people is the goal. And in that case they can’t describe their goal because I think the majority of the population would bury the GOP permanently if they understood.
So, if it is very unlikely we will ever find out from them what they want to do, or what they consider success, something is seriously wrong. Need to point that out. And need to remind people that the initial idea of invasion, the means used to bring it about, the execution, the attitude, their philosophy of war, nation building, peace, every single thing they have done in, every single thing they have thought about Iraq is bad, incompetent and a mess, and will continue to be just that until they, and anyone who thinks and talks like them is turned out of office.
That will take voters’ minds off failure and concentrate it on bad faith, incomeptence and dishonesty of the current administration and the GOP mini-me’s currently showing their wares.
TeddySanFran @ 135
MSM either marginalizes, trivializes or ignores the Dems who have called for immediate withdrawal. (Edwards, Kucinich, Richardson) There have been a number of calls for withdrawal, and after the large applause from the audiences, the issue is dropped. Is that to protect Hillary? why is that? what has MSM invested in Hillary that they are protecting her? Why is there such coverage of Obama implying an action in Pakistan? Is it that war sells news?
I’m tired of all the yippee crap already.
I posted this late in the previous thread…I just came home from seeing “No End In Sight” and am ready to fight these warmongers by myself. It was absolutely infuriating.
Teddy – he’s apparently saying it already. It sounds like they have a nifty powerpoint presentation they are rolling out for all the congresspeople who are popping over to Iraq for a day or two … or should I say “popping over to the Green Zone” since they do not see Iraq.
And Petraeus was one of the two commanders Col Westhusing called out in his “suicide note.“
TeddySanFran @ 156
Teddy I don’t know if you are really in San Francisco but every Thursday at noon for one hour a group of committed folks stand in front of the Federal Building on the corner of Larkin. They have been there from the day Bush rattled rockets at Afghanistan. Their perseverance changed many hearts and minds on invading a country. If you are in the area, drop by. These people never give up.
Twain @ 162
The two years 6 months for politicization of the move 6 mos for the paper work, and a year for the cycle out, the merc.s well thats why the get the pay, damn most are just paying the bills the pol.s don’t want to submit.
Siun @ 155
Much of the timeline for a departure depends upon what the underlying policy will be. That said, a reasonable timeframe would be about 9 months. The key is that we don’t have to withdraw everyone and everything to bases in the US and Europe all at once. The principal objective would be to remove troops and equipment to staging areas in Kuwait where they can be processed for a more permanent withdrawal in a more secure environment.
Teddy’s up top …
Thanks everyone.
Jonathan @ 25
Unfortunatley, the tearing down of the evil we’ve wrought is not even begun, and the world is gonna level a SEVERE wercking ball upon us for our behavior.
Only after that, will any rebuilding remotely begin. And THAT healing, will hurt worse than the old methiolate on an open cut.
new thread
Siun @ 111
perhaps it is foreshadowing of the netroots performance when/if she is the nominee. Hard questions will not be encouraged, there will be calls to mute criticism as she is ‘only tacking to the center to appeal to swing voters’ or some such shiite.
You know the conservative fringe in congress is going to trot out this report in September as their proof the surge is working. I suggest our side counters by reading aloud the articles stating the surge is not working. Better yet, bring in a big pile of them and enter them into the record.