Last week Rudy Guiliani’s health plan adviser, market think-tanker Sally Pipes, was unleashed to attack Mitt Romney for being . . . well, a closet socialist for supporting a form of universal health insurance while governor of Massachusetts. Even worse for Pipes: Romney, was “in cahoots” with that liberal Ted Kennedy.
Ms. Pipes, who advocates a free-market approach that “would deregulate the individual market and allow insurance companies to design policies that are attractive to the non-needy uninsured,” accused Mitt Romney of supporting a plan that attempts to provide universal coverage by requiring either individuals or businesses to purchase health insurance, while assisting those least able to pay, a scheme that Pipes fears might eventually evolve into the dreaded single payer approach. So despite the fact that Romney actually vetoed the separate bill that required businesses to provide health insurance (the Legislature overrode the veto), he apparently committed the sin of at least trying to make sure that all residents of his state were covered one way or another.
On Wednesday, Romney retaliated, nailing Guiliani for having continued New York City’s history of providing sanctuary to undocumented immigrants, a policy he inherited after it was adopted under Mayor Koch in 1989. No suprise there for any mayor of New York, a city built on successive waves of immigrants who took seriously the inscription on the Statue of Liberty as they processed through Ellis Island. But that was then. According to Mr. Romney, Mayor Guiliani should now be rejected as the Republican standard bearer because . . .
“He instructed city workers not to provide information to the federal government that would allow them to enforce the law. New York City was the poster child for sanctuary cities in the country.”
Mitt also finds offensive statements like this from Rudy back in 1994:
“Some of the hardest-working and most productive people in this city are undocumented aliens,” Giuliani said at the time. “If you come here and you work hard and you happen to be in an undocumented status, you’re one of the people who we want in this city. You’re somebody that we want to protect, and we want you to get out from under what is often a life of being like a fugitive, which is really unfair.”
Rather than confirm he held these views, Guiliani tried to divert attention to his efforts to make NYC a law-abiding town, as reporters recalled his attacks on McCain for supporting “amnesty” for those illegal aliens Mr. Mayor once found to be the backbone of this city.
Mitt Romney, of course, is the man who claims that “Jesus Christ is my personal saviour.” I’m still trying to figure out what that confession really means for public policy, but so far it includes a willingness to double the size of Guantanamo for those who missed out on salvation because they pray to Mohammed rather than Jesus, and a willingness to have all of us become federal informants any time we think the men mowing Romney’s lawn might not have the right identity cards.
But at least now we know the Republican front runners believe that the way to win the nomination of what’s left of the party of Lincoln is to deny or minimize some part of the humanity and sense of decency they once had.
Photo: Joshua Lott/Reuters, Ames Iowa Republican Debate
Related posts:
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- Please Welcome Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner, Candidate for US Senate
- Late Night: Republicans to Re-Enact Famous Death Scene From “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” on the Floor of the House
- Franken-Coleman Update: How to Elect Republicans
- Queens NY GOP Won’t Dump Pagan Candidate
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yo yo
Congrats Raven.
What bothers me is that all this bowin’ by the Pubs up is going to make Hillary try to be even tougher. If she gets elected she’ll have to pounce on the first target of opportunity to show she’s got cajones.
Now to read.
raven @ 3
Cojones
acc to wikipedia
If only these posts were required reading before anyone could vote. We would be in great shape as a country. Nice job scarecrow.
ReneND @ 6
Thanks. I thought everyone was required to read FDL!
raven @ 3
My hope is that their meanness competition will give our candidate plenty of room to go for the nice people vote.
mack @ 5
You left out the best part!
ReneND @ 6
So true. I keep trying to subversively refer friends of various ideological stripes here on targeted grounds: honey bees, law & order. Get them here for something I know they’ll find interesting and hope they’ll notice something akin to common sense. (This only works on those without true lizard brains.)
Hi Scarecrow:
Two posts simultaneously? Which one is the topic of the moment?
I still can’t figure for the life of me how anyone could still believe that any of the Republican candidates have the welfare of the American people at heart. I have always argued that the average American is more ignorant and gullible than most people are willing to admit, but it takes a special kind of ignorance to listen to any of these guys and think that they are anything but self-serving power mongers and shameless liars to boot. The people who haven’t learned the painful lessons that the Bush presidency has thrust upon us will never learn.
NolaSue – my husband and I talked to the local guy for Maurice Hinchey (Go Maurice!!)and I advised him to start religiously(ahem) reading FDL. When I described all the coverage over the past 10 days about FISA and the voting, etc. he was very very impressed.
Marretta @ 11
People are scared, plain and simple.
Raven,
Actually the spanish word I use to describe most of the candidates would be cabron.
Caw, CAW! G’ Morning Scarecrow and everyone:
Health stories all over the dayam place, but this one goes straight to supporting the troops and torture.
Gadhafi’s son, who regularly serves as the father’s spokesperson, verified that the Tripoli Six – the nurses and physician – were tortured. However, in the US, Bush would not consider what happened to them torture.
This should bring home the vulnerability of the troops now that the Geneva Conventions are on the toilet paper spool along with the Constitution.
Also, recently Leavitt put on a sham HHS pandemic flu “leadership” blog, where the HHS spewed its propaganda and Bush water carrying talking points. No discussion or response to commenters was ever made, except by guest contributor, DemFrom CT, who repeatedly tried to make nice with the HHS and was totally used and abused as his thanks. The Asst. Sec, John Agwunobi, posted information that was wrong and/or misleading. Well, he has now jumped ship directly to Wal-Mart, where he will serve as its propaganda mouthpiece health and wellness director. Meanwhile, an FDL reader provided a great reference link about the actual cost to tax payers when a Wal-Mart hits town.
Need. Coffee. Now.
Marretta @ 11
What Raven said
Fear
Scary terrists (want to kill you in your bed)
Scary brown people (tho we steal their slang)
Scary homosexuals (want to recruit your children by offering them marriage)
Morning, Scarecrow & all–
Scarecrow @ 7 …
Great post, and I really think you’re on to something here.
A while back, during one of the more heated immigration moments, I heard Ed Schulz dealing with a strongly “send him ‘em home, cut ‘em off”-type caller. Schulz did a great job of luring this guy & his position to the scenario of a pregnant woman without legal standing (or healthcare) at the ER with an unborn baby in crisis.
The fool illustrated his own meanness beautifully. Not to mention the inherent problem with so-called Christians espousing this kind of intolerance within their brand of Christianity.
I say, let’s keep forcing them to talk.
mack @ 14
I was thinking more of Hill’s necessary machismo.
I spent the day with Spanish faculty yesterday, wonder what they would think?
I’m scared too. It scares the daylights out of me that people get so worked up about being killed by a terrorist that they are willing to put one of these republican thugs in the whitehouse. The ones that kill me are the ones that admit that Bush has been a disaster, but say that Rudy would be just wonderful as president. They are like the mythical people who watch the same movie over and over hoping for a different ending.
I’m swimming in “red” in ND. Believe me, I wish FDL were required reading. Although, they are unusually quiet. Maybe they’re thinkin’.
Ed Schultz is here in Fargo.
Great post. And (OT somewhat, apart from the fact that cojones are involved a bit), I’d like to point out that it sure would’ve been great if OldBar’s reproductive strategy hadn’t been “garbage in, garbage out.”
raven @ 18
Guerro
^_^
Marretta @ 19
I think the country is moving in a very different direction than the bluster from the Repubs would have us believe. With only 35% identifying themselves as Republican, even the “base” is shrinking. Their messages of meanness and hate get amplified by the progressive community’s scrutiny of them – cockroaches always look big and scary when a light is shined on them. However, when natural surroundings give them cover, their ability to “shock and awe” is diminished. I think that holds true with the general public, who are now pretty thoroughly disgusted with the Repubs, and the effects that the Repubs have had on their own lives – rotten schools, unsustainable wages, inability to get out of debt, high gas costs, high utility costs, food prices rising, healthcare unaffordability, etc.
Rick DeVille @ 21
707!!! (Mixed with a spew alert, of both types — laughing & eeeeeewwwww!)
Oh, and apparently if you are a Republican, having accepted Jesus as your personal lord and savior means that you can freely ignore every single one of his teachings while hiding beneath the protection the invocation of his name affords to bigots, misogynists and rich greedy amoral white men.
mack @ 22
Guerro
^_^
How’d you know I was Norske? Man, they were a real bunch of luddites!
Marretta @ 25
Wow. Perfect. Could you put that on a button for me? I would wear it everyday. Really.
N=1,
Beautifully put. It is difficult to keep perspective in a red state. Thanks for reminding me that critical thinking and sanity do exist.
Maretta,
I think the answer is to call cowardice whenever you see it.
It is not brave to bully thousands because you are afraid of dozens.
The US response to September 11 after the first 3 months or so has made us weaker and obviously so.
Because our nation, as a whole, enabled the terrorist’s objective. We have changed our way of life and our concepts of liberty, sovereignty, torture and privacy. And weakened our influence in the world as well.
Oklahoma City did not acheive this.
Principly because there was a measured response.
The US invasion of Iraq was that of a cowardly bully – all bluster and no thought. And our children will pay the price.
Now this could make for good questions for a R YouTube debate! “How, as a Christian, do you explain denying emergency medical treatment to someone just because they are in our country illegally?”
Oh. Never mind. For some reason, they have scheduling conflicts for a YouTube debate.
Marretta @ 28
It is hard to keep perspective. Here in East TN the paper is so red. They hear 9 hours of hate per day on AM radio and you must belong to a church. Our little Dem group struggles.
Rene at 27,
I have a lot of respect for Jesus and his teachings, and a great disrespect for those who twist the beauty, truth and wisdom of his words for their own evil purposes.
I want a bumper-sticker that says “WWPPD?” (Prince of Peace)
Mack,
Remember the commercial that ran not too long after 9-11 that talked about how the terrorists had changed America and showed the American street that was just full of American flags? Now I shudder remembering that commercial, thinking about all death and destruction that has been sanitized by wrapping it in those flags. Not to mention the flag draped coffins.
Marretta @ 25
Doesn’t confession and repentance get you off the hook? And you can do it over and over, as long as your timing is right and you don’t get hit by a car crossing the street to your church.
I showed a relative(preachers wife) the youtube of Bush giving the world the “finger”. It was the one where he laughs about his one finger salute. She about fainted. It had to change her opinion.
The party of Lincoln exists no longer. In its place is now the party of Bush.
Knut Wicksell @ 35
Only in the fundamental Christianist denominations – Assemblies of God, many of the megachurches, pentacostals, etc. There are many other denominations which emphasize social justice, individual and collective responsibility and service. Mennonites, Friends (Quakers), Universal Unitarians, United Methodists, etc. are a few that come to mind.
Knut Wicksell @ 35
If it didn’t, Bush would not pretend to be a Christian.
Rene at 36,
In that case one finger was literally worth a thousand words, huh? LOL!
Marretta @ 40
I like to think it was her REAL come to Jesus moment. Whenever she sees that guy pretending, she will think of that youtube. I’m so glad I did it.
Scarecrow, if you change “mean” to “tough”, and accept the fact that a lot of these followers of the Muslim religion are trying to wipe out not just the USA but all of Western Civilization; and when you realized that Americans ARE electing the Leader of the Free World, then yes, I do think that voters are still looking for the candidates that will be the toughest against the Aggressor Muslims. I think a Rudy/Huckabee or a Fred/Rudy ticket or a Rudy/Fred ticket would be great…
well, mitt is a mormon isn’t he?
don’t mormons think someone else is their savior?
don’t mormonst think they are going to be a god in their own universe when they pass away?
so mit has to make it clear to the christians that he is still among them by claiming Jesus is his personal savior
I used to work with a bunch of “Left Behind” Christians and gradually noted a running theme that delighted them. The worse the sins committed before the individual was “Born Again,” the better. They used to sit around the lunch room bragging about all the sins they had indulged in before being cleansed in the blood of Jesus. One day I just snapped and pointed out to them that there were a lot of people out there who followed Jesus who had been “born right the first time,” and my guess was that they took a dim view of the get out of jail free card these evangelicals had woven into their particular sect of Christianity. These are the folks that Bush and his buddies can fool with all their talk about God.
Marretta @ 19
Ya know, I read the other day that the weakening of driving hour limits for truck drivers would result in several thousand more deaths on US highways – many more than killed on 9/11. So from that perspective, the Bush appointee to the Highway Safety/Traffic Commission (??) at the Department of Transportation is more danger to Americans than al Qaeda.
I’m sure there are lots of examples like that. I may put together a list.
N=1 @ 23
Well,you can only hate so many people before that comes to your own doorstep. Sooner or later,most sane people(sane being the operative word)realize there’s a gay person in their family they care about,or a single mom(or dad),or a minority,or someone of a different faith. The more hate you radiate,the more chance it’ll swirl around and bite you in the ass.
I find it hard to beleive that a country who put a man on the moon in less than a decade cannot figure out how to multi task and give up the notion that there’s only one way to do things(like farm,raise a family,fix the infrastructure,fund healthcare,eliminate defense spending and still keep people employed,educate children,etc,etc…). We can,the media and the politicians are just SAYING we can’t. Fuck’em,they don’t know Dick(except Cheney).
perris @ 42
Well, I didn’t mean to get into the Mormon thing — and certainly don’t want to diss Christian (good morning, Dad) – I just always find the contrasts interesting, especially from those who make a show of their faith.
“Born right the first time”…I’m writin’ that down.
Scarecrow at 44,
Oh, please do! That take on things is one of my husband’s favorite rants. “You are more likely to be killed by fill-in-the-blank than by a terrorist attack. People who spend all their time being afraid of terrorists are like the toddlers who are afraid of being flushed down the toilet. No sense of proportion.
Knut Wicksell @ 35
I think genuine repentence is a prerequisite to grace. Sincerity matters, and recidivism counts against that.
ReneND @ 27
My wife gave me a great button the other day that I think might work for you. It says:
“Make the scary republican go away”
Marretta @ 48
I’ll bet your husband’s favorite movie is Sleepless in Seattle.
And you should be careful around toilets.
bluejeansntshirt @ 51
there’s also the tshirt my daughter wears proudly: “republicans for voldemort.”
ReneND @ 48
I know a member of the pagan clergy(yes,there is indeed such a thing)who has that bumpersticker on her car.
Try the Northern Sun website,they have all kinds of cool things like that on teeshirts,posters,pins,coffee mugs etc…
(she says,drinking coffee out of her Northern Sun “Ladies Sewing Circle and Terrorist Society” Mug,lol)
Marretta @ 49
That’s not the point, is it? More soldiers were killed in a single day on D-Day than the entirety of the Iraq War…but we didn’t stop fighting tyranny because it was tough, we did it because we had too…
Scarecrow @ 50
Dietrich Bonhoeffer deals with this in his book The Cost of Discipleship and calls it “cheap grace,” which was earned for us at a great sacrifice. Grace is a treasure and not to be viewed as an instant replay button.
what amazes me is how this caricature of the uninformed, jingoistic bully has become for all itents and purposes, the republican ideal candidate.
The Daily Show did a wonderful hatched job on Romney and his chicken hawk sons last night.It was hysterical.
I bought a button on ebay last week. Homely little pic of boosh . Under him says
Because the truth just isn’t good enough.
since before man rose to walk on two legs, there has ALWAYS been universal health care.
even DOGS have universal health care
we care for our young, we care for out sick and we care for our elderly, it’s a pack thing
Angry old broad,
My best friend is a Wiccan Priestess. She was the celebrant at my “pagan light” wedding ceremony that was a recreation of a celtic handfasting. She has a pagan clergy sticker on her car and a “My Goddess Gave Birth to Your God.” bumper sticker.
My all time favorite Northern Sun bumper sticker is “Where are we going and what am I doing in this handbasket?” My daughers is “If you can’t trust me with a choice why would you trust me with a baby?”
Marretta @ 25
Back in college (waaaaaay back), one of my English professors stated that part of the fun of having an English degree is that it proves to the world that you know the right way to write, and can therefore stretch the rules with the understanding that you’re conscious of the errors you make. Sentence fragments and that. Using them colloquials. Dialogue. As befits what you’re writing and stuff.
All this is well and good in creative writing, but it’s certainly not a valid parallel argument when it comes to Bible usage among so-called believers. “We say we’re Christians and know better, so we can ignore the rules when it suits our little story.”
Wrong.
Mornin Pups, Great buttons HERE. And remember “Peace is not Treason”
[Mod: link repaired by moderator. Gotta delete the first http:// ]
Marretta @ 25
Marretta, that one floors me every time, too. Do they even listen to themselves??
egregious @ 55
It’s an interesting theory, the notion that humans need absolution because of some original flaw in the design they were given instead of chose. I could never sort that out.
And speaking of republics………..
http://www.9news.com/news/top-…..ryid=75200
Colorado’s top federal judge having, shall we say, slight problems in the morals department.
A little google identifies him as having been appointed by bush the elder in 1989; guess we can assume his political affiliation. *g*
Rick DeVille @ 62
you guys should watch this movie
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
get past the intro and to the explanation of christianity
the information is intriquing to say the least
The Science Blogs would be a great place for you (and especially you, Scarecrow) to check on the relationship between Bush and Repub policy and the effects on individual and public health and safety.
If you fuck with the Goopers’ money – they’ll turn on their own mothers.
Bush’s Ideology would likely melt precipitously in the heat of angry investors.
Let’s see what the Market cooks-up today?
bluejeansntshirt @ 63
Linky no work. [Link repaired by moderator]
Here you go, Scarecrow:
Deaths from Katrina: at least 1,800
Deaths from easily preventable hospital errors: a conservative estimate is between 44,000 to 98,000 per year.
Another estimate of deaths due to easily preventable hospital error is calculated at 195,000 per year.
radiofreewill @ 69
It is down 137 already. Gosh I am only a millionaire now, just yesterday I was a billionaire. How will I get by? Help please.
Scarecrow @ 63
I can’t figure out why we got kicked out of the Garden of Eden for eating from the Tree of Knowledge. I can see it if we were eating from the Tree of Lies and Disinformation…
But Knowledge is a beautiful thing, and actually useful if you want to be practical about it.
N=1 @ 67
thanks for the link. If you see stuff that fits the point I’m going for, send it along. We’ll make a Hugh’s list of these.
Mrs. Pipes, the Giuliani advisor who is promoting an unregulated health care approach, gave the game away by saying that a free market approach is vital for what she called “the non-needy uninsured”.
the only uninsured people i know who are not “needy” when it comes to health care are the very wealthy.
how very Republican
ReneND @ 69
Sorry. Try here.
Boston1775 @ 70
Wow. The hospital numbers are scary but seem improbable. egregious?
Scarecrow says: Scarecrow @ 63
Thought about that one long and hard. Decided that those involved with the theory may have seen the potential of said theory.
Scarecrow @ 65
Original flaw = flawed operating system
contrition and absolution = software patch
Make more sense? The real challenge is whether the original flaw was in the BIOS, or the OS installed by the original “owners”…
once again in case everyone missed it, for those that challenge religion as a principle of morality
have a look at this video there are a few parts, the second part deals with 9/11 and we’ve all seen that already, the third deals with the pnac and we know about that as well
the fourth deals with the central bank and I have to admit I knew nothing about the history of the central bank, I don’t know if the conclusions are valid but it is intriquing
the most intriguing part though is the foundation of modern religion
it is really a must see, get past the intro and you won’t be able to stop watching
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
where do we get the paperwork to secede from this corrupt union?
isn’t there a government department that has this printed out, numbered, 0984098034680349803496039643096039 or something very like it?
how many folks do we need to make a country that values the one we started? is there a painful threshold?
Can we turn the GOP primary into a reality show? This will be much better than watching steroided-out goons and trash talking hoochie mamas slap fighting each other to be the last person on the island or in the mansion.
-GSD
Elliott @ 73
there was a GREAT short story, I don’t remember the author but it goes like this;
the maker set this test time and again throughout the universe until he found the man and women that stood proud they took from the fruit of knowledge
and THOSE are the people he chose to stand by his side
interesting take to be sure and the author obviously agrees with you elliot
Scarecrow @ 76
An underestimate if anything. A really stupid hospital error was nearly the death of me, ironically while I was studying public health at a well known eastern medical center.
EgrDau has this as one of her professional research interests. It’s a huge problem. People would really be shocked if these stories were aggregated.
Scarecrow @ 74
Michael Leavitt’s HHS head-in-the-sand approach to pandemic flu planning – but those are unknown future death tolls.
The Institute for Healthcare Improvement and the Institute of Medicine both put out accurate measures of preventable morbidity and mortality in reports on their respective sites.
The Republicans are just trying to put off an economic collapse. Hand this and war over to the Dems.
Early Friday, the New York Fed announced a three-day repurchase agreement, or “repo,” to inject liquidity into the market. The Fed said early Friday it would accept $19 billion in mortgage backed securities. The move came after the fed funds rate, the rate banks charge each other for overnight loans, ticked above 6 percent again Friday — well above the Fed’s target of 5.25 percent and a sign that credit was becoming harder to obtain.
The Fed stepped in after the same occurrence Thursday, injecting a larger-than-normal $24 billion in temporary reserves to the U.S. banking system. In a repo, the Fed arranges to buy securities from dealers, who then deposit the money the Fed has paid them into commercial banks.
Forget what the official dogma is, the actual facts are that most ‘believers’ who are ‘born again’ into Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour engage in Magical Thinking – “I’m saved and all my sins are already forgiven, including the ones I have yet to commit. All I have to do is call on Jesus when I’m dying and I’ll go to Heaven.”
That’s it. The salve that greases the hateful, hypocritical immorality of the Goopers.
They are ’saved’ and have ‘carte blanche’ to do whatever they want – lie, cheat, steal, wound, kill, etc the ‘unbelievers’ – until they play their ‘Ace’ on their deathbed.
Jesus is their ‘Saviour’ and they can kill unbelievers in his name until they die.
That.does.not.make.sense.
Scarecrow @ 77
The hospital morbidity and mortality numbers are on the low side. AHRQ is a reliable data collection and analysis agency.
Perris: I promise to watch the film when I get home. Along with another one over on SteveAudio’s blog. Thanks.
oldtree @ 81
It’s probably not permitted. Civil War settled that. These days, it’s really hard to cancel your cable company.
Politics has become a nasty and filthy business. Just why do all these rich Republicans want to be prez. Public service? The pay perhaps? I don’t think so.
egregious @ 84
Got anything on food poisoning?
I was blown away at the numbers — something like 7-plus MILLION Americans get food poisoning of one form or another, with tens of thousands hospitalized, and thousands killed by same.
I’d like to see how much worse it’s gotten under an administration that believes government should be drowned in the bathtub rather than improve food inspections. Suspect that increases in food-borne illnesses may also be taxing our healthcare system.
Of course, somebody is making a profit on this, like Big Pharma; they make far more on the drug therapy than the farmer does on the spinach in question (or pick some other food product), and in turn donate more $$ to the RNC.
Rayne @ 79
I guess you believe in either Bill Gates or Steven Jobs.
Scarecrow, I deliberately left out the far higher numbers. I’ll go back and try to find them.
“savior” or “saviour” ??
oldtree @ 81
Here’s one attempt: http://www.vermontrepublic.org/
How many of us can fit in Vermont?
Linda Aiken reported out research via the IOM which demonstrates a clear link between survival and recovery rates when baccalaureate-educated nurses provide direct care to patients. With every patient assigned to an individual nurse over a 1:4 nurse:patient ratio, the death rate rises by 7% IIRC. When nursing assistants provide the direct care and there are fewer supervising nurses, the death and complication rates rise even more dramatically.
Scarecrow @ 95
As in “Save yer own ass…mine’s covered.”
Rayne @ 79
God as Windows? Now I can grok that…
Back to theology, the original design flaw became evident once we collectively began to realize our own mortality [the true Eden knowledge, I argue] and faced a classic prisoners’ dilemma. If everyone acted in a selfish way the human race would die out. We needed to figure out something to counteract that. Hence religion.
This is how I try to explain faith to friends. I’m a pre-Nicean Christian myself.
Scarecrow @ 77
Believe ‘em.
Scarecrow @ 93
here is a theory I developed myself, I don’t think I’ve heard anyone else come up with it
I beleive religion is because we know we are going to die and we don’t want to
religion gives us imortality, we can’t accept that when we are gone we will not see what came of our work
Scarecrow @ 93
Heh. If you only knew…
Actually, I believe that humans design technology in unconscious tandem with the architecture of the human genome and menome. It’s archetypal, comes out of our deepest recesses that we can’t access directly with our conscious. Earliest computers were more like our most primitive, reptilian brain, able to respond to simple stimuli; later computers were able to do higher processing, evolving not unlike our own brains did.
Religion is part of the human menome, a subset of culture that is replicable and transferable (key criteria for memes), and works to regulate many human functions like reproduction at software level in order to override on-board, wet-wired presets imbedded in the genome. But religion can be highly flawed – ha! minor understatement there – and we often have either patches or complete purges when the software labeled “religion” fails.
Scarecrow, et al.
Original Sin/flaw/etc is easier to understand if expressed as I hear it weekly.
“Recognizing that we are imperfect beings”
Absolution from your imperfections makes it easier to get beyond them and serve others.
As observed earlier here, absolution is not liscense to go forth and sin again, it is the Grace which enables us to serve.
egregious @ 100
Well, religion is one answer. Farming is another. Farming works. :)
N=1 @ 97
Yup. This is why I argued, in a thread waaaay downstairs now, that nurses should be paid the same as doctors. The two are concentrating on *different* aspects of health care, *each* equally necessary! Diagnosis, treatment, and care are all equally balanced needs.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 91
The Bush family has shown them that the office holder and their family have nearly unlimited plunder gathering opportunities.
Rayne @ 103
Hence the Protestant Reformation. Tho I still love my Orthodox and Catholic sisters and brothers, and people of faith everywhere as unified in the search for higher meaning.
Re: the original post, don’t ever underestimate the Republican message. What we see as blatant fear mongering and lack of basic decency, fully half of this country sees as pragmatism and the idea that no one should expect handouts from the government. It’s not a matter of arguing the points better, it’s realizing that much of this country hears through a set of biases that make our message inaudible, even offensive. Just look at the election of 2004, when you’d think it was obvious what a disaster Bush already was – but half this country stood up and yelled, “That’s my guy!” It’s completely disorienting, but it has to be understood if we want to win votes.
Here’s the link to the M&M statistics used by the IOM and AHRQ.
M&M = Morbidity (complications rate) and Mortality (death rate)
IOM = Institute of Medicine
AHRQ = Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality
Scarecrow @ 95
Queen’s or American English, or French/Canadian?
egregious @ 100
Are there lots of pre-Nicean Christians? The concept intrigues me.
There are some really smart people here, but you guys who knew about the hospitals and didn’t tell us worry me.
Rayne @ 103
our brain works so much like a vm (virtual memorory) operating system it is stunning
there is ram, L1, L2, (newly aquired information, REALLY new aquired information)there
that is disposable unless we save it to the hardrive
there are backround services that take priority over current operations and so on
the more you know about an operating system and compare it to the human brain the more stunned you are of the similarities
Scarecrow @ 105
Only until people realize it’s easier to steal your crops than to grow their own. Hence the catchy communist revolution. Is farming alone sustainable in the long run? Ask people from Ukraine, where millions perished when the communists took all their food.
Scarecrow @ 113
I’ve already ranted at length about hospitals in various countries, including the near death experience.
Lotta problems out there. Got to keep working.
Rayne @ 111
Jeez, ask a simple question . . .
I vote with egregious on the hospital numbers being a lowball. My doctor always teases me about my blood pressure spiking when I am in his office, (white coat syndrome,) and I point out that I know enough about the medical profession to be justifiably nervous of an office visit, much less a trip to the hospital.
perris @ 114
Gives new meaning to “in His image,” doesn’t it? Heh.
jhaygood @ 109
But, no one SHOULD expect handouts from the government. Hard work and do it yourself is what made this country great! Liberty flows from that very simple idea….
Good morning all!
Here’s my take this AM.
Shorter Republican Pres candidates:
“You’re fucked up”
“No, you’re fucked up!”
“NO, you’re fucked up!!”
“NO, YOU’RE FUCKED UP!!!”
Shorter Democratic Pres candidates:
“Some of my best friends are
homosexualqueer, er, gay.”As I recall, Jesus came along and said, “Don’t change anything about the Law in the Old Testament, except the line about ‘an eye for eye, a tooth for a tooth.’
That part I want you to put down, and instead practice ‘loving your enemies as yourself.’
The Goopers, by and large, missed that part.
Scarecrow @ 105
Don’t want to forget brush ranching since the Preznit will soon be harvesting yet another brush crop. It’s not just work. It’s hard work.
mc @ 120
File under: Wish I’d said that.
Scarecrow @ 77
Here’s from a Penna report on HAI (hospital acquired infections)
see how much money can be saved treating patients carefully!?
Badwater @ 122
Well, I guess egregious would say, dumb farmers raising brush are the problem, because he thinks stealing from the good farmers is the solution so that he and his friends don’t need to work. But George is a deeply religious man, or so he says, so there’s a glitch in the theory somewhere.
PB @ 119
Exactly, although I prefer not to think of the universal entity as either a His or Her since it creates “all of the above”, including those we puny humans have yet to discover.
After reading Stephen Wolfram’s A New Kind of Science, I am more and more convinced we are part of a vast, self-computing system, and that our efforts to understand it will never be realized because the system is computational irreducible. It would be far better to question what it is we should be doing with the limitations we have to our ability to perceive and compute than make attempts to solve the massiveness that is the universe.
In other words, it’s the Tower of Babel; do not look to see “God” by building a ladder, rather work on salvation by helping each other transcend their human problems. How very archetypal.
I’m endeavouring to be more accurate with my spelling.
This is why Ted Kennedy’s bill to bring college costs back to this earth will help us in so many ways.
If we don’t have to incur horrendous debt to educate a first grade teacher or a nurse, we will have more teachers and nurses. However, if kids have to leave school with $50,000 in debt they have a terrible time getting started.
Scarecrow @ 126
And you believe Bush? Why start now.
LibertyLee @ 120
“Handouts” is the Republican framing… not the truth. Which is the point I meant to make.
Anybody else experiencing weirdness with editing posts or with using tags?
Seems like I’ve had more problems with these in the last two weeks.
BTW: computational should have been computationally.
Scarecrow @ 113
Sheesh – I’ve been blogging about that for a year – but because I speak to it from a nursing perspective, it doesn’t get respect – not from the progressive community, the feminist community, nor the healthcare community – which itself is very heavily physician-centric. Come on over and visit. It’s there – probably ad nauseum, but it’s there.
jhaygood @ 131
No, if you get tax dollars from the government for a non-defense purpose, that’s a handout. Which defeats self-enterprise and initiative and makes us slaves to the government.
Rayne @ 132
I’ve been having weirdness with my posts,
but that’s got nothing to do with editing features or using tags. )
are you still at the greatest great lake?
N=1
If you can, keep bringing that sassy voice over here. I think you’ve found your audience.
Generally speaking the conservatives believe that men and women were born evil. The liberals do not share this attitude.
The Leviathan, by Thomas Hobbes is better suited to the Republicans than is the GOP’s hypocritical paraise of New Testemant.
I’m worried that the RNC is trying to remake Cheney’s public image for a run for president. The writer of the book, Cheney, has been all over the media. He is apparently paid by Murdoch somehow.
ola
I’m listening to Joshua Bell right now. The Divine resides in his violin.
Morning gang. Fresh thread up and running…and now for more coffee…
Christy has a new thread ready.
Boston1775 @ 136
Thanks, Boston1775, but it’s not a sassy voice- it’s a despairing one.
mc @ 140
Absolutely – at onement/atonement/a tone ment
N=1 @ 143
We have to choose?
So if the Republicans think handouts are so bad, why do they keep giving them to the rich and to corporations? Some democratic genius needs to find a frame for corporate welfare that mirrors the knee jerk response that most people have to the endless variations of the welfare queen.
Rayne at 127
“…our efforts to understand it will never be realized because the system is computational irreducible.”
The irreducible system produces all manifestations and absorbs them back.
A wave can’t know the ocean, but the ocean knows all waves.
The unquestioned assumption of personal separateness – ego – is the mental/psychic blinders that limit our experience to being waves – temporary in time and continuously changing form (ie – always getting older.)
We assume that everything about ‘us’ is temporary and tied to our body. When our body dies – ‘we’ die.
That’s only true if you believe your ‘essence’ – that which is behind your eyes and between your ears – is limited to separateness trapped in your body.
Spiritual practice can be about transforming the ‘center of your awareness’ from the assumed separateness of the wave of manifestation to the center of being in the ocean – our true home, our original Eden – wholly beyond time and space, where transformation of form is a natural and continuous cycle radiating contentment and peace.
Rayne @ 102
Except usually, when the failing religion ends up purging healthy ones. Some religions are a lot like cancer.
Wow! Morning all. It’s a little early for me, on the leftcoast, to fully get with this theological discussion, but I’m hugely impressed with what a lot of you are saying. I’ve never heard a discussion with the depth and thoughtfulness of this one among church-going folks. Of course, that doesn’t stop me from attending. But Bonhoeffer before 8:00 am, is pretty heady stuff.
I can’t help thinking that in the same way that when a religion devolves to a place where they think they know everything, they lose everything, that maybe the Repulican party may be going down, down, down.
Thanks all for sharing your thoughts and insights. Let’s continue to share the faith without works is nothing concept to all.
realworld @ 148
Actually, religion is virus-like, as are many memes. A meme can take out a lot of healthy memes in order to take resources for its own perpetuation.
But as one might have noted by reading Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs and Steel, viruses have a built-in limiter. They will kill off 90% of its hosts; going beyond that threshhold is suicide. So other religions may always have a niche in the 10% of the community that must necessarily escape the self-destructive tendencies of so-called “successful” religions.
Hospital acquired infections are costly – in terms of patient suffering, preventable deaths and financial costs.
Infections contracted during stays at hospitals in Massachusetts cost between $200 million and $473 million annually, as a result of extended hospital stays and the costs of medications and surgeries, according to a state report released on Wednesday, the Boston Globe reports. The report — compiled from various sources and mandated as a part of health care reform legislation — issued 135 recommendations to prevent the spread of bacteria that causes infections (Smith, Boston Globe, 8/9).
egregious @ 100
That’s a modification of the Hobbes model of the rise of civilization from “savagery”. But the problem wth it is that it presumes that humans somehow transcended selfishness, which was the “natural state”.
Any Primatologist or Sociobiologist will tell you that unbridled selfishness is absent in ALL social animals…there are a whole grab-bag of unstated contracts, cooperation, recipricol altruism, kin-selection, deferred gratifications, and complex social organizations with different strategic roles.
In fact, it goes back even further…hard to see how “SELF”-ishness somehow meshes with Darwinian selection when parental (particularly maternal) care and sacrifice is essential to getting surviving offspring into the next generation.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 137
Perhaps, but The Leviathan’s view that humans had to be coerced into civilization by laws that were rigidly enforced flies in the face of what we know about non-human Primate Social Organization. Quite simply, Sociality and such features as cooperation and altruism are embedded into the genetic-developmental fabric of most mammals.
LibertyLee @ 120
Yeah…didn’t Franklin say “Surely we must hang separately, or we will surely be hung together”?
And all those solitary Calistogas crossing the Great Divide avoiding the well-worn rutted trails of the Mormon and Oregon Trails ended up
fertilizing the wildflowers.
I think the only American to do anything exclusively on his own was the Unibomber!
LibertyLee @ 42
You sound like a Tom “Nuke Mecca and Medina” Tancredo manto me. You should check in with him!
Try Bedlam State Memorial Hospital
ReneND @ 36
That’s a very cruel thing to do…hilarious, but cruel. I mean, opening someone’s eyes to the REAL world has got to be a shock.
Sounds like Matrix. Did she take the red pill? Did you call her ‘coppertop’? Heh.
LS @ 138
But, Murdoch is also funding Hillary. Are we looking at a Clinton/Cheney ‘08 ticket?
For an interesting read on the subject of food supply and Civilization’s growth you might read Ismael or My Ismael or The Story of B, all by Daniel Quinn. I favor B.
Quinn tells an interesting tale which you aren’t likely to get anywhere else.