A New York Times article this morning reports that the Bush Administration is about to crack down hard again on immigrants who may be in the country illegally, by forcing employers to fire those found to be using phony Social Security cards. Upholding our immigration laws is, you see, a matter of principle.
Of course, the problem of phony cards could be solved for both employees who need the jobs, and employers who need the workers, if there were sane immigration laws that included giving the immigrants reasonable access to real Social Security cards, so that they would be within the law, contributing and paying taxes, instead of outside the system creating enforcement issues. But that wouldn’t satisfy the Republican right wing’s desire for punishing people who “aren’t like us” just because they can.
No, the right wing insists there’s a principle of the rule of law at stake, and Lou Dobbs and Republicans just can’t stand the fact that people might be violating the laws of this country. And because those dark skin creatures aren’t like us, we need to be firm with them, and if they persist, put them in “family relocation centers” until they learn their lessons. As a Bush-appointee to the U.S. Civil Rights Commission notes, it’s the logical thing to do for a law abiding nation.
Given their respect for the law, how do you suppose the Republicans feel about Jane Mayer’s description in The New Yorker of the CIA “black sites” and their systematic use of torture. Marty Lederman summarizes this despicable reign of state-sponsored terror, all done under the Republican Admininstration’s rule of law and cheered on by the of so principled Republican right wing — i.e., virtually all of them.
As we have tried to argue repeatedly in this space, it is the conduct at these black sites, and not so much Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, that is at the heart of the scandal — or, at the very least, it’s at the CIA black sites that the problems began, and that’s where the primary action is now, after Hamdan and the MCA. This is not a case, like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, where the government simply insisted that interrogators obtain actionable intelligence, promised them legal cover, and then turned a blind eye so that unsupervised thugs could do their dirty work. That was bad enough. But as Jane explains, the CIA program is much more systematized, approved in every detail at the highest levels of government, by DOJ and by the Director of Central Intelligence, instigated and pushed by the Vice President, and supervised by psychologists hired to give it a patina of respectability and orderliness. It is an official, systematic torture regime, conducted entirely in secret, and without any accountability, let alone punishment for those who have violated clear legal norms — including the Torture Act, the War Crimes Act, and the prohibition on cruel treatment and torture in Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.
Read Mayer’s entire article and/or Marty’s excellent summary, and then think about what the law ‘n order Republican Party really believes about the sanctity of the rule of law. The Bush Administration has turned the US Government into a state sponsor of terrorism that condones aggressive wars, disappearing people via kidnapping, followed by torture, indefinite imprisonment, and phony show trials. We have become Chile under Pinochet, or Agentina, or . . . But by God we’re going to show those brown people we respect the rule of law.
Photo of Manzanar Relocation Center by Dorothea Lange, 1943.
Related posts:
- CIA Torture Report Remains Under Wraps; Has Rule of Law Resurfaced?
- On the Rule of Law and Crimes of Torture
- Jawad, Ghailani Cases Challenge US Torture Under Rule of Law
- Rule of Law Held Hostage: GOP Continues to Smear Johnsen While Reid “Works on It”
- Obama Administration “Disappointed” Italy Enforces Laws Against Kidnapping





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good morning!
I am never near the front of the line anymore.Good morning pups.
completely appalling…
this is America?
Great post.
It’s funny — just 15 minutes ago, I was walking to work amidst the crazy drivers from outside the District of Columbia who “flood” the District each morning…
I was actually wondering how many of the red light and crosswalk ignoring Virginian whites were from Prince William County and support that County’s crackdown on immigrants, legal or illegal….
Of course, as a pedestrian, I understand that there can’t be real “border security” without, you know, drivers respecting pedestrians’ right of way.
Hard working immigrants seeking to provide for their families are inspiring; violators of our real security — especially constitutional provisions that keep us free — are embarrassing.
Scarecrow: Not to go OT, but I’m waiting for one candidate to run on cutting down on the price of Worker’s Compensation. Small business’ is getting slammed paying out these fees.
Morning, all! Oh, don’t even get me started on this whole thing. It’s just crazy-making…
“Enforcing immigration laws” is a corporate shakedown. There will be selective enforcement, depending on whether the Rs get the contributions they demand. Watch Wal-mart not get scooped up.
eCAHNomics @ 7
I wonder about how they go about selecting their targets for raids. Meat packing plants in Massachusetts? Is there a pattern?
Totally OT, and Scarecrow, please forgive. But the execrable Fred Phelps and crew are coming to Minneapolis to mock the memorial services of those who died on the bridge last week. Link.
Help me understand hatred and ignorance that run this deep (or is it shallow?). Please.
ccmask @ 5
It’s called the Republican small business scam. Encourage small business; they pay all of the labor overhead and then they are the subcontractors for big business who pay next to nothing.
barbara @ 9
Wow. I think no other explanation than “publicity whores” fits at this point. I mean, WTF?
What a brilliant post to link these two issues together, even though i become ill thinking about them, and the lack of amurkan rage at how far the country’s sunk down. Congrats, scarecrow.
I respectfully disagree here.
I agree the employees need jobs and I am sympathetic to people who want a better life for their families. However, the employers who need workers and resort to hiring illegal immigrants are just unwilling to pay a living wage and as a result are creating a demand that is being filled to a great extent by those in the country illegally.
Illegal immigration is not an issue limited to border states. It is a local issue. In my town in MA it manifests itself in a growing supply of substandard housing, public school classrooms with large percentages of non-English speaking children, crowded hospital emergency rooms, drivers without auto insurance, and assorted other burdens on local services.
We are not a racist community. By and large most people in my town understand that the immigrant population is being exploited. However, my town, like many others is being left to fend for itself without any acceptable level of federal assistance.
I believe enforcement of immigration laws is a federal responsibility and the federal government has failed to carry out its responsibility in large part due to the desire of corporations to cripple organized labor. I also believe progressives need to be careful about labelling those who want our laws to be enforced as racists.
You know what is crazy in Florida? They are always saying that we should be very careful about giving out our Social Security numbers; yet, students in Florida go by their SS #’s. Their SS# is their Student #. So, when you go on a class visit and see all the work hanging on the walls done by students, instead of their names is their SS#. How crazy is that? If I wanted to get a SS#, all I have to do is visit any Florida classroom. When I went to the office to complain about it one time, they told me it was an easy way for them to track students. Unbelievable, right?
Scarecrow @ 8
I’m guessing there is a pattern, but I’ve not read anything that would add real information to my suspicions. I’ll focus some attention on it, now that it seems to have moved up on the priority list.
Well, call me crazy but I don’t want the immigrants punished for wanting to work. I instead want employers and corporations fined for hiring illegals. I want that money then to be earmarked to help those in the country have access to the things they need. Corporate america needs to pay for them to be here. There is no free lunch…But they seem to think there is. One way or the other corporate america needs to foot the bill that having them here in america costs us. (health care, social services). The people do not need to be punished at all. Perhaps those with criminal records should go home. But it’s not the human beings fault for wanting a job. It is corporate america’s fault for wanting to hire slave labor and then refusing to pay for any of the costs of housing them.
ccmask @ 14
They used to do that here a couple decades ago, but stopped for that very reason. I’m surprised that it’s still being done. The students should protest this; there’s plenty of court precedent to back them up all the way.
This is our Dick-tatorship at work. Have to make a bad pun, because the bare fact is too painful.
And I ask again: does anybody really have an explanation of why the Legislative Branch is petrified by the Executive Branch?
Here’s the fun part. If you legalize these people’s presence for the purposes of work, then the companies won’t be able to pay them dirt cheap wages because they’ll be able to protest unworkable conditions. Which they don’t do right now because with the “illegal” moniker they’ll be slapped down first time they raise their voices. It’s a vicious circle, no wonder the rethugs love it so.
I’d love to see transient work made entirely legal, with a union to boot. What a huge lovely middle finger extended that would be.
PB @ 17
Sounds like it’s being done at elementary or middle schools and those students wouldn’t have enough knowledge or awareness to protest. Their parents on the other hand should be totally up in arms over this.
Keep in mind that there is no way for most companies to assertain whether an individual employee is legal or not, considering the ease of obtaining counterfeit documents.
Katie Jensen @ 16
The Bush Immigration Bill was “free lunch” for the big corps. 4-600,000 guest workers allowed in without any comparable wage protection. That way they could cut out the sub-contractors who now hire the “illegals” and take all of the risks. The kleptocrats didn’t count on the lizard brains blocking the path for more profits at workers’ expense.
OT:
Apparently the subways in NYC are completely kaput, owing to 3 inches of rain falling before I woke up this morning. Mayor Bloomberg is advising people to delay going to work. Infrastructure decay strikes again!
I don’t understand why Bush does this. It contradicts my view of him. He’s so pro-business that he likes low-wage workers. This seems to contradict that. I would expect him to turn a blind eye. I just don’t get it.
What makes this unacceptable is that the employer isn’t frog-marched off the property along with the illegal immigrants.
I am in the odd position of being against illegal immigration, those who enable such activity and how Bush is handling this.
Were it up to me, I’d bring border control up to reasonable specs – we know who is coming into the country and when they leave, with credible enforcement. I traveled a bit, and every place I’ve been to, including Mexico, does a better job than we do.
Then I’d go after employers that hire undocumented workers.
Then I’d go after the enablers.
http://findarticles.com/p/arti….._n16058693
Then I’d deport the illegal immigrants convicted in court on criminal charges.
Then I’d start the long process of dealing with the millions of illegal immigrants here. For those who are established (families, working,in school, clean records) – I’d make them citizens.
We must end corporate exploitation of illegal immigrants, and the ricochet exploitation of American workers. I’m sure the corporate ruling class views it as a win-win situation.
But for Bush to asymmetrically attack this problem, establish concentration camps and let business off the hook is, while sadly predictable, utterly despicable.
eCAHNomics @ 23
NYC was also under a tornado warning, it expired about an hour ago.
Solai @ 24
See my 7. Also, I suspect some other political considerations going on, like embarrassing some pols on one side or the other of the issue, but I haven’t thought that one thru.
Forgive totally OT link, but thought you all might like to read a little background on Kos.
[CHS notes: I’ve disabled the link here. If you want to find this unsubstantiated dreck, you’ll have to do it with your own Google. Markos has been dealing with this conspiracy-theory idiocy long enough, and I’ll not have it peddled in the comments here at FDL. If you have questions as to why, feel free to e-mail me, but we don’t deal in character assassination without all of the facts being completely substantiated, and this one is so far out in tinfoil hat territory as to be laughable. Sorry, but there you are, and I’m not helping to spread it.]
Solai @ 24
Republics are searching for an election issue and this is the latest trial baloon. Bush, on the other hand, is just along for the ride and really doesn’t care either way.
PB @ 19
Solai @ 24
He’s pandering to his base. It was the lizard brains who sank immigration legislation, and who sank McCain’s candidacy in large part on this issue.
The lizard brains and corporatists deserve each other.
eCAHNomics @ 27
eCAHNomics @ 23
More proof that it’s all the fault of those dang liberals like Bloomberg. This stuff didn’t happen when Rudy was in charge. Moral decay is a given when Republics are not in charge. Just ask a Republic.
behindthefall @ 18
I think it’s because they are all stirring the lemonade with their hands and not one of them is clean.
I fear this is getting people used to the concept of large scale round-ups.
I wish I was mistaken.
-GSD
Lo and behold, the US is working on the largest anti-drug efforts in 7 years.
Time to round up drug dealers, immigrants and other domestic enemies of the state.
jim oconnor @ 13
And I respectfully disagree with you, as you have not provided any facts and figures. The examples you cite are those often used by the opposition, and without supporting data.
Crowded public classrooms are occurring in communities where there are few if any non-English speaking students; my kids, for example, attending an overwhelmingly white middle-class school district are subject to crowding because teachers have been pulled to do administrative work demanded by NCLB. Funding was not appropriated by the NCLB mandate, and additional revenues are impossible in this state because of the loss of manufacturing jobs to overseas competition.
Hospitals are crowded primarily because of the nature of our healthcare system. My mother, an ER nurse, worked last year in a hospital in middle Florida along the east coast. She was putting patients in meeting rooms and hallways — and nearly all of them middle to upper-middle-class white patients who live in vacation and retirement homes there — because the hospital will not pay for more beds, will not pay for expansion of the ER, will not pay even for more para-medical help to treat patients who are not in extremis. No immigrants causing the crowding; they are typically terrified to show up in the hospital unless they are at death’s door.
And in my own case, I’ve had $3000 in damage to my Honda, caused by an 80-plus-year-old white man who floored his Corvette into me, failing to yield. Apparently he didn’t see me last October, after going into Walmart to buy a firearm license for hunting deer. He was unlicensed, having had it taken away from him for reasons he failed to specify; he ran off from the scene of the accident, too. I am FAR more worried about this jackass who owns a gun than I am any so-called unlicensed immigrant — because this guy actually offered to buy me off, had the money to fix all his problems, and immigrants can barely afford food and shelter, let alone a vehicle and gasoline. I’ve yet to hear any anecdotal evidence from anyone I know that they are being hit right and left by unlicensed immigrants.
Enough fearmongering. We caused this problem of illegal immigration through the law of unintended consequences. When we signed NAFTA and CAFTA into law without ensuring they were sound legislation with minimal downsides, we set in motion economic conditions that force families to flee their homeland (which they love and prefer) in order to survive. Were they able to feed and clothe themselves and care for their children in their own country, they would not be here. And until we address the underlying cause instead of putting up fences and building concentration camps, we will not solve the problem.
Rayne_35
Well said as always.
I couldn’t finish the new yorker article.
I’m too much of a coward. How hard must it havebeen for her to learn this information and then write about it?
can’t even bear to read it.
As far as I got (and I will go back later and try to finish it) the repeated description of the meticulessness of the rcord keeping and the use of scientists to allow them to try out evil theories reminded me so very much of the the Nazi “experiments” in the concentration camps.
Rayne @ 35
Amen.
Speaking of dark skinned creatures….
It seems that at least three of those miners trapped in Utah are Mexican Nationals. It seems that the families of the victims have been ordered by the mining company “No hablar a los medios.”
Rayne @ 35
Thank You. And since most of this fear of immigrants is about people from Mexico,it might be worth Jim’s time to look at precisely how corrupt the government there is,and what exactly they happen to be doing for their own poor. The country is poor,the people who run it are not. One of the newest billionaires is from Mexico,don’t think he’s helping his fellow countrymen and women all that much.
Forgive me a long quote from a description of the aftermath of the Haymarket Riot, the site of which we visited in Chicago this weekend, but I thought it was apropos:
Moon @ 40
The whole thing is hinky. That tomato faced owner is defensive as hell.
I think he’s the perfect face of the corporate fat-cat who marches people into the mines at whatever cost.
-GSD
looseheadprop @ 37
Yes, the depravity is on the order of the nazis.
I have seen parts of this story before and we have had stories about widespread torture before.
Why doesn’t this get ANY traction. I just don’t understand.
looseheadprop @ 37
Yeah, I could only handle the Lederman summary, but he’s thorough.
Gotta jump in with a thank you to Rayne for spelling it out so well.
anangryoldbroad @ 40
Heard on the news this morning that the Mexican has now exceeded Gates as the richest person in the world. And thanks to Rovian voting manipulation, there is now a reich-wing govt in Mexico, with all the implications that we have already experienced.
As Leona Helmsley once said: Only the little people pay taxes.
We now have the Bush rule: Only the little people suffer the penalties of the law.
-GSD
Redshift @ 41
So not much has changed, unfortunately.
fdl reader @ 43
I was really stuck by how many quotes were attributed by real people with actual names.
And the importance of this article is that it brings so manyof these incidents together and lays out “THE PROGRAM”
AS for traction, maybe we bloggies can help with that?
Hi Scarecrow and all pups,
Thanks so much for these gems today Mr Crow.
Bushco and all his corporate friends look you in the eye, but are only interested in what is jingling in your pocket. My car is parked in my driveway, I stopped my post 9-11 shopping a long time ago, and certain companies are going to be putting my picture on milk containers soon.
Hit em in the pocket people, as hard and as often as you can. Use the toys you got. Don’t buy any new toys until they’ve learned their lessons well.
Rayne @ 35
“Only the little people pay taxes” and it’s working out quite well for them (ala Barbara Bush) with our booming economy & health care for all via the emergency room. Ha.
Scarecrow @ 44
No, you gotta read the New Yorker piece itself. it will make you cry.
I just wasn’t mentally prepared for it,which is why I had to stop. I will come back to it later today when I am braced for it.
This article needs much front paging. It is very important.
eCAHNomics @ 47
When I follow the news coming out of Oaxaca, one of my fears is that this presages what will happen here. We are starting to approach the sort of income differential that Mexico has and consequently will start to experience some of the same types of things, I think and in this respect the events of Oaxaca worry me greatly.
Can I make a suggestion… do not fall into the Right’s use of language by calling the illegal, the term is undocumented workers.
Repugs envoke Edwards Two Americas where the law applies to everyone else but themselves. It was glaringly obvious with Scooter.
You are exactly right Rayne….
big stories of children of undocumented workers here in Phoenix – a 13 year old girl died from a ruptured appendix because physician’s and hospitals refused to treat her because her family did not have insurance (undocumented workers). Following this incident was a infant death at a hospital ER. Both children died for two reasons, one because they were refused care because of payment and the families waited until it was too late. When they were finally seen in the ER, they were too far gone for any care to prevent their deaths.
Goopers are running hard on the immigrant issue- it was the ONLY issue my congresscritter ran on last tme around. They scream for a wall and for enforcement- but the buy who’s not enforcing anything is, embarassingly for them, a gooper.
Clusterfuck is forced to do a little raid from time to time to prove that he cares- then back to benign neglect on the issue.
I don’t think that anyone who feels the need should be allowed to come and work here- but the only way to slow down the flow is to come down hard on employers- and that’s exactly what Clusterfuck refuses to do.
Rayne @ 35
After the Berlin Wall fell, it was widely predicted that Europe would be flooded with immigrants from the East seeking better jobs. By and large, it didn’t happen, and a big factor was that Western Europe invested in economic development in Eastern Europe.
That’s the real solution to the “immigration problem,” but instead we have the GOP sending Republican political consultants to help ensure that the right-wing anti-labor candidate in Mexico wins by hook or by crook, and demagoguing on the issue here to try to hang onto their fading power.
Sorry for the OT. Had to link to this morning’s Mike Lukovich cartoon.
LINK
Redshift @ 41
I think we got about one sentence on this history when I was in grade school. Move along.
Nice to see you at YKos.
JF @ 59
That is priceless and Mike is the best. Thanks
PB @ 54
I could be wrong about this,but I think the only cushion we’ve had in America against this sort of thing happening is the middle class. I’m talking about the nearly extinct blue collar working class,the people who built this country’s infrastructure(hello? how many jobs could be created there?),worked in factories and farms,etc. These folks made a living wage,owned small homes,sent their kids to college,etc. Today’s middle class(or what is considered as such) is much different than 30 yrs ago. Because we had that strong middle class,it seems that it stood in the way of tyranny and the kind of crime family affiliations that run Mexico’s government.
I believe in the enforcement of immigration laws and all laws that have to do with illegal spying. I also believe by allowing cheap labor(for U.S. business) but needful for Mexican people,we act as a relief valve for the government of Mexico. I read somewhere, can;t remember the amount, that a good bit of money goes into the Mexican economy being sent back to Mexico.
I also think that laws need to be changed to allow more legal immigration; but not simply because people are poor. Movements originating in those countries like Mexico are needed to rectify those problems.
I think both the Prez. and Vice Prez should be not just be impeached; but criminally prosecuted for their lawbreaking.
If it can be demonstrated that our school systems and government services are improving because of immigration, I might be more convinced to change my opinion.
Strange that during these times of competition for scarce resources, wor competition I might add, no one politically mentions the ever growing overpopulation of the world. I guess no one wants to address some of the problems of not killing zygotes.
Sorry to go OT.
I have no connection to the toobz anymore, some glitch from our ISP happened while I was on vacation so I snuck in early and “borrowed” a computer in a different office.
In the meantime, I saw this story over at Raw Story.
Couple this with what has been going on at Wall Street and the housing bubble;
China threatens ‘nuclear option’ of dollar sales
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last Updated: 9:54am BST 08/08/2007
The Chinese government has begun a concerted campaign of economic threats against the United States, hinting that it may liquidate its vast holding of US treasuries if Washington imposes trade sanctions to force a yuan revaluation.
snip
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/mon…..na107a.xml
anangryoldbroad @ 61
I notice a lot of past tense when referring to the US, anrgyoldbroad. That is what is so scary – that we speak of things that would keep us from tyranny in past tense.
Good Morning Scarecrow, Pups.
Another wonderful post, Scarecrow. It’s hard enough to read these things, beautifully written as they are. I thank you deeply for going through the agony of doing the research and writing them. We have the easier job, tough as it is. I’m appreciative of your pulling things together for us, and also for the links, all of which help us go and try to smack some critters awake. We are all enablers unless and until we are actively trying to help by cleaning up our own house in the US of A.
Chinese investment in treasuries may prove to be more valuable than nuclear weapons in bending the US to it’s will.
Good morning, everyone (peering through one squinted eyelid and holding my coffee mug as if it’s my last frayed lifeline). Found a must read post today from the Pump Handle about the latest mine disaster in Utah. I was hoping Tula might be around the ‘nets today, because I think she will find it particularly interesting – and very alarming to all. (More of Bush loyalty mafia in very public action)
I think the economic concerns of workers should not be dismissed. It stands to reason that if there is a larger supply of workers, the price of labor will fall. Corporations prosper by pushing down the costs of production, including the cost of labor. For most of the things corporations need to buy, the seller has some market power also. So, car companies buy steel, and the steel companies are trying to push up their returns, fighting for more money for their product.
But there is no one to push back on labor. All of the employers can gang up on labor to push down the amount they pay. They do this to increase the payments to their shareholders, which is the only reason they recognize for anything.
So, workers see no real increase in income, despite the increase in productivity. Every day they see vast numbers of illegal immigrants. Smithville, Tennessee has several authentic Mexican restaurants where once the meat and three ruled. People don’t have to know a lot of economics to worry about their future, and illegals appear to be a likely cause of their problems.
Adie @ 66
Adie, you said that so well. And Scarecrow, yes, your posts (well, for crying out loud – the entire FDL post archives)I refer to over and over. Thank you!
More friggin candidate debates comin apparently- allowing the press to spend it’s ink on what Hillary wore and who called who a name rather than getting out of Iraq or clusterfuck’s latest crimes- the presidential election has been turned into a profit making enterprise for teevee networks- and the candidates are unpaid actors in this new teevee series-
Using immigrants to force down wages (along with the use of prison labor)is straight out of 19th century America. Too many ‘Progressives’ are being duped. This isn’t the fault of ‘la migra’, this is the fault of the Mexican (and others) government and the US’s failure to enforce the laws against employers. It’s not about the 12 million, it’s about the damage being done US workers by the presence of 12 million cheap laborers. this is more of the rich screwing the poor whether they be illegals or citizens.
Mention Lou Dobbs and I start to scream. He can’t get through a show without saying something prejudicial.
N=1 @ 68
Thanks for the link; I’ve forwarded on to Tula.
masaccio @ 69
Airline pilots, air traffic controllers and nurses are all three prime occupational examples of that, masaccio. Excellent point -
The immigration thing is an excellent red herring for bush and the GOP to use to try to keep peoples minds off the shitmire. “America for americans!” (Ein Reich! Ein volk! Ein Fuhrer!…?) will resonate, and not just with the mouthbreathers.
It’s a goood candidate for anger-transferral for the people who are pissed that what’s happening in Iraq is no longer spinnable as “we’re making progress!” to anyone with the cognitive ability of a pile of fresh dog shit sitting on the sidewalk.
U.S. casualties at their worst since the war began? Lookit the Mexicans taking over Wal-Mart.
Republican conger-eels starting to bail on the fucking of the cluster?
Macht nicht. What matters is, I saw a blonde-haired, blue-eyed prom queen holding hands with a high-school football player clearly of Latino descent.
The MSM focusing (a bit) on the Attorney General of the United States “forgetting” more in front of a senate commmittee than an aging mafioso Capo with terminal Alzheimer’s?
Don’t mean shit. Lookit the money the fence-climbers are taking out of the U.S. Treasury, while poor Halliburton and Bechtel, etc., have to beg the stingy old pentagon for another zillion dollar no-bid contract.
Y’all aint right.
There has been little of substance from either side on this issue in my opinion. The right wants to demagogue the issue- the left pretty much wants to ignore it…without alienating the growing hispanic vote.
It isn’t really clear if the govt. CAN slow down the flow of undocumented workers- even if it wanted to- which it doesn’t.
“Family relocation” centers. I can’t understand why no congress critter that I know of has stood up and said it’s wrong. Why immigration is a “hot” issue when every single American is immigrant stock (with the exception of Ms. Kiddo) really, really gets me.
And how many mommies, daddies and their children can’t afford food, medicine, school supplies back to school clothes and on and on, let alone a vacation. It’s disgusting. Yes siree. The Legislative, Executive and Judicial brances are really in touch with the people. And take a look at this pix of a happy little filthy rich family:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/…..refer=home
Aug. 8 (Bloomberg) — It’s August in Washington and the city is emptying out.
Members of Congress left over the weekend and won’t be back until Sept. 4. President George W. Bush goes tomorrow to his family’s seaside compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, for a long weekend before heading for his ranch in Crawford, Texas. Call it a recess, call it a break, just don’t call it a vacation.
For lawmakers, it’s a “district work period,” time to meet with voters, raise money or take “fact-finding” trips overseas. White House officials stress the president has regular briefings and is on call 24/7 for any emergency when he’s in Crawford, where he has spent 418 days as president.
This year, perhaps more than most, politicians are bending over backward to avoid the appearance of taking a holiday.
“It’s the optics,” said Ken Duberstein, chief of staff under President Ronald Reagan, who was known for his passion for spending time at his California ranch. “Whether you’re in Congress or the White House, you must give the impression that you’re working and not tanning, that you’re at your desk and not at the beach.”
Here are a couple of links to attempts at estimating the costs of illegal immigration.
http://www.nctimes.com/article…..2_5_04.txt
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..Aug25.html
It seems when someone tries to get a handle on these costs, they are immediately labeled racist.
I would like to see an un-biased and authoritative answer, not cooked up figures andad hominem responses.
We rightly accuse Bush of making policy on faith, rather than facts. So let’s have some facts.
Rayne points out a key truth. Part of the solution is undoing the damage of NAFTA.
rwcole @ 76
I don’t see how you can view the efforts of Kennedy et al on the immigration bill as wanting to “ignore the problem.” Wanting to address it in human terms rather than strict law enforcement terms is not ignoring it.
Someone on Digby pointed out the logical breakdown of the current winger rhetoric.
Dick Cheney and George W. Bush say we don’t torture, but them damn cowardly Democrats won’t take the gloves off and allow our boys to torture.
-GSD
NYT reporter, Bush Administration shill, and Iraq War whore Michael Gordon is at it again:
U.S. Says Iran-Supplied Bomb Kills More Troops
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08…..ref=slogin
American deaths due to EFPs were up in July. Gordon says they accounted for a third of combat deaths in that month.
Now remember that just a few days ago General Odierno was boasting how casualties were down in July. So how can things be both up and down?
Well, Gordon says that “Shiite militants carried out 73 percent of the attacks that killed or wounded American troops in Baghdad in July.”
Of course, this is not the whole country. Also Gordon talks about Shia attacks on US forces but this also represents the fact that US forces are operating more in Shia areas and are encountering more Shia forces. So the primary reasons that the proportion of US casualties due to EFPs were up in July are 1) the Sunni truce in Anbar as Americans arm Sunni militias and 2) increased US actions against Shia militias.
As for the Iranian angle, Gordon has nothing new except the same ole same ole doled out once again by himself and his man crush Ray Odierno.
The New York Times America’s premiere
papercheerleader for war.mui @ 77
Since we “all” emigrated from East Africa, we are all immigrants to the Americas.
ken melvin @ 72
Yes in large part. And when did the shift happen? When the Fed gov stopped asking employers to collect and submit data on each employee. This, as I recall was Bush. Will related data have any impact now? No, because the Gov will insist that it cannot respond in a timely way to the requests. Remember the passport fiasco this summer. Same drill.
GSD @ 81
And we don’t violate FISA or the 4th Amendment either, but the rw sites were, I’m told, relieved when Congress folded on FISA.
OTOH….some GOOD news on the legal front this morning, for a change
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
oyez
Conservatives see the law as a tool to entrench their positions and interests. Progressives see the law as having intrinsic value.
crow
I’m not an expert on the Clusterfuck bill. What was in there that would have slowed the influx of undocumented workers?
Tanbark @ 75,
I see and fear the same dynamic. Rove will be an effective Goebbels.
Progressives want to address the causes of illegal immigration. Conservatives want to use illegal immigration to make headlines.
diogenes @ 90
Frank Luntz already wears that hat. Propagandist, wordtwister, traitor to democracy.
Rayne 35. Bravo! Spot on as usual.
Thanks from Ohio, land of the unconstitutional funding system for education. Just a few years ago, after declaring the system unconstitutional twice, mind you, our OH Supremes just summarily decided not to bother dealing with the issue any more.
Oh, and just to twist the knife, they have no problem whatsoever with the snitching of more and more money (OUR tax $$!) away from increasingly troubled public schools to hand over to the private “academies” which, of course, needn’t bother meeting any particular standards for achievement or accountability.
And don’t get me started on health care system…
Oh, and Ohio’s lege? Biggest bad joke in the state. At least our new-ish Governor is pretending to care. I’ll wait and see what he actually does, but suggest not holding breath in the meantime…
realworld @ 85
Republicans create legislation to make the country into what they want. Democrats create legislation to reflect how the country is.
If course, what’s waaaycool is that somehow, the conservatives can be jiggered into ignoring the fact that for the past 6 and a half years, when the problem has come to the fore, we’ve had the GOP with locks-on-the-board in the political power situation.
And, who loves cheap, hard-working, maids-and-gardners-and-ditchdiggers more than the party of the well-to-do? :o)
Frank Luntz lives in fear of his toupee blowing off in the wind.
He and Rove are true ministers of propaganda.
-GSD
Hugh @ 81
Here’s the email I sent public@nytimes.com
Hugh @ 82
Does that mean we’ve stopped fightin al Qaeda in Iraq? I can’t keep track.
rwcole @ 88
Fences, more border patrol, tougher penalties; also requirements that those here had to return after a year or so before they could come back.
anangryoldbroad @ 62
I think that’s exactly it, myself. The middle class is the key to economic prosperity and stability. Mexico has only a tiny sliver of a middle class, if that. We’ve lost our middle class at alarming rates.
crow
Will those work in your opinion?
Yep.
Now the former Saddamists, Baathists are our bestest buddies and the guys we urged into poltical office are the bad guys because they have ties to Iran.
Can’t wait till we stab the Kurds in the back too.
-GSD
ccmask @ 14
What they’re doing is illegal, SSNs are not supposed to be used as a form of identification.
Call the SSA/OIG Hotline – 1-800-269-0271 and report this abuse. The potential for fraud and ID theft is staggering.
I really hate that ‘undocumented immigrants don’t pay taxes’.
If someone fills out a W4, even if the SSN doesn’t belong to them, those taxes will still be withheld. Clerks in stores don’t ask about immigration status before adding in sales taxes. Neither do the people who work in service stations – there’s no rebate on gas taxes if you’re undocumented.
rwcole @ 100
No. They used to shoot people climbing over the Berlin Wall, trying to gain a better life. And still they came. Something about people that these kinds of “enforcement” efforts can’t deal with.
PB @ 99
Hence the new gilded age.
The Republican right wings’ ideal era was before any of the great levelings of the playing field in the post depression era that were brought about by Roosevelt.
-GSD
P J Evans @ 103
Indeed, and if you pay any rent at all, you’re also paying property tax (unless the landlord is a complete idiot…)
Scarecrow @ 102
Walls=failure.
Hugh @ 83
I saw this too. Front page no less. Either the owners are keen to press forward with the Iran attack (pro-Neo-con,Lieberman, Perle etc. agenda) or it is related to Bush’s move against the Times with the claim they revealed security secrets (treason). Probably it is a combination of the two (hence both editorial page and the articles). Whatever its cause, it is more of the horrifyingly immoral, misguided, wrongheaded Middle East (read Is*ael [non enduring]security) movement which doubly serves to support the U.S. military industrial complex [Halliburtan].
crow
I don’t think so either- a crackdown on employers WOULD work in my opinion- but it won’t happen. That’s why I said that everyone’s really ignoring the problem.
eCAHNomics @ 107
Even the Great Wall ultimately failed.
Tanbark @ 75
;->
And Lou Dobbs booms on… King a da Hill in hisownself’s mind, but down to his core, just a one-trick pony. And that one trick’s getting awfully awfully tiresome!
GSD @ 101
1. Almost as if we’re anticipating the fall of al Maliki government? Then what?
2. There was a report a couple of weeks back of US proposed to support Turkey in helping to control Kurdish fighters. You need a scorecard.
Scarecrow @ 96
It’s really very simple. al Qaeda is the insurgency in Iraq except when it’s not. Shia militias are the insurgency except when al Qaeda is.
Current US policy is to lurch back and forth between the various sides in the Iraqi civil war while denying that there is a civil war.
BTW I just heard on NPR that Anthony Cordesman said that he was on the same trip that O’Hanlon and Pollack were on and that his assessment was a lot more pessimistic than theirs. From this we can also conclude that the surge is working except that it isn’t.
So you can see there is no reason for any confusion.
Scarecrow @ 113
The Bush Admin strategy is to hold on until they’re out of office. Then they will happily point out that things were fine on their watch. It’s not their fault.
Rumor has it Romney is considering Jeb Bush as a running mate, provided he gets the nomination.
-GSD
GSD @ 115
OMG! that’s so funny!
In my part of the United States- whole cities are rapidly turning into barrios of the most sordid variety. Undocumented workers are packed into apartments like sardines. Pick up trucks fill the streets cause there are several families in each unit and only one parking stall. Once attractive neighborhoods are now decayed and wretched slums.
It’s sad, and funny, and interesting, and frightening. There’s plenty to be afraid of for those who see their property values plummeting and their schools choked with those who hold back the progress of entire classes.
I don’t agree with they hysterical reactions of the gooper congresscritters- but I do understand why many are concerned about the problem.
OldCoastie @ 117
Romney is also looking in to bringing on the ghost of General Custer as defense secretary.
-GSD
The only tangible result I imagine resulting from those gawd-awful walls?
Demise of the few remaining ocelots and jaguars, and other beautiful and perhaps not so beautiful, but no less special, wild things that don’t understand mankind’s idiotic artificial barriers, and shouldn’t have to.
GSD @ 116
Placeholder for George P to grow up?
Christy has a new post/thread ready.
Please! Please!
No more Bushies. No more Clintons.
This *used* to be a Republic. And it’s not a monarchy again, yet.
OldCoastie @ 116
And once elected, he has promised to take a leave of absence to go to veterinary school, a career he has long admired.
GSD @ 114
If he does, he better not stand too near cliff edges or the tops of stairs with Jeb at his back. I can already see the story. Newly sworn in President Jeb Bush says, “I reached out to pull him back but he went over anyway.”
GSD @ 115
Every time I try to imagine R*mney winning the nomination, I start laughing uncontrollably…
until I remember who we’ve got now…
looseheadprop @ 50
So maybe this is the nature of the program that the president has
notacknowledged – as opposed to the one that he had acknowledged that was part of Abu G.’s testimony.Diogenes; He’s certainly BEEN an effective Goebbels, but I think, metaphorically speaking, Rossokovsky’s troops, are moving into Berlin, as we speak. :o)
I think that with what’s coming down the pike, relative to Iraq, the repubs won’t be able to drag ANY rotten fish across it, to try to hide it.
We just need to keep in mind, that we’re still 15 MONTHS from the election, and the GOP is already shitting green nickels at having to deal with the fact that they helped bush gangbang Rosemary-in-Mesopotamia, and now the kid, with horns and tail, is growing faster than the monster in the first “Alien” movie.
In what part of the good ship “Nostromo” are they going to hide?
Anyone with half-a-brain, and with an ounce of the milk of human kindness in them, wants this misery to end yesterday, but it’s not going to. All we can do now is get out and let the people living in what used to be Iraq, decide which will be more satisfying to them:
A civil war even bloodier than the one which george bush and the republicans have created for them, or making the huge compromises that just might let them live relatively at peace with each other.
BTW, Mr. Preznit; they won’t make those compromises while we (lusting after cheap access to their oil for your petro-buddies, and for military bases to use to jawbone the mid-east) occupy what’s left of their country.
Progressive Politics Matters.
New Christy thread.
Hell yes it matters.
The torture at the CIA Black sites is a terrible stain on our nation.
Now all Bush needs to do is concoct some legislation retroactively legalizing it, and he knows enough Democrats will vote for it, and it’ll be just like the FISA charade!
Maybe Rove will orchestrate that 2-step next August…
mui @ 73
I’ve stopped watching CNN (how the mighty have fallen). Thank Ghu my cable system offers BBC America — I watch them and Countdown.
I read the Disgrace, but am still mourning the Citizen Journal. Damn media consolidation.
Adie @ 126
I’ll second that emotion.
-GSD
There is a bit of inconsistency here (and I have yet to red through all the comments). I mean, this knife cuts both ways. If we object to the CIA black sites being used for torture because they are illegal then we should also be in opposition to those who break the law and come into the US illegally.
I am just noting the inconsistency is all.
I think the issue is very complicated and I don’t think there are any good solutions. Much of the blame for this also rests on the corporations who seem to want things just as they are. It benefits them. I would like to see a solution that benefits the workers but I have no idea what that would be.
GSD; thanks for the heads up.
I don’t really think that Mitt Romney (nor Barney Fife, for that matter…) 15 months from now will want to have someone with the name “bush” on the ticket with them.
Trust me; we can all relax about that. :o)
If you want to know where a lot of Bush Conservatives are, they are FOR immigration rights, but AGAINST giving government benefits for illegals. The idea that taxpayer money should go to someone who is here without even asking an invitation is anathema even to the McCain wing of the party.
Scarecrow @ 99
Scarecrow, didn’t this bill include a “National ID Card” or was I imagining that?
sunny @ 28
Thanks for the clarification..Maybe it’s a sign of FDL’s increasing influence and success, but there sure seem to be more, one time new screen name, concern trolls trashing the Dem party.
Sorry, Noen. I do not equate systematic government-generated torturing of human beings, with sneaking across a border to try to find a better life for yourself and your family.
noen,
You can make a law repealing gravity or forbidding the tide from coming in. It will have no effect. Demographics are a lot like that. Demographics happen.
Black prison sites are the opposite of this. They represent actions which are so extreme and egregious, so offensive to human norms that there was never a justification for them outside of fear and the exploitation of fear by a ruthless and immoral Administration.
Ideally the govt. would find a way to gain control over immigration so that we could make a conscious decision about who gets in and under what circumstances. It may be that the current rate of inflow is about what we need- but it would be good for us to make that decision rather than having it made for us.
Trouble is- it isn’t clear that we CAN regain control.
Steve-AR @ 136
Divide and conquer.
Hi, Liberty!:
The next republican meeting you attend, could you ask them, as good goopers, what makes them think that, after 4 and a half years (and counting) that $2.5 billion a week that’s going down the Iraq urinal, is off-the-table when we talk about “wasteful government spending”???
Hugh @ 137
You make good points. I guess if I were queen of the world, or maybe just the US, I would work to lift Mexico out of it’s third world status. I think that would go a long way to solving the problem there. We have had a policy in the US for generations now of suppressing developing nations. We keep them in poverty and extract their wealth for our needs and to the benefit of our corporations. That long standing policy is why we have masses of poor people desperate to get in.
That seems to me like the only approach that really addresses the underlying problem. I’m not that sure how you’d go about implementing it though. And even less hope that it would ever happen.
rwcole @ 118
Well, if you’re in a job that pays minimum wage, you’ll need at least four jobs to pay the rent on a place, anywhere in California. And most one-room apts come with only one parking space; bigger places with two. If you decide to rent a house, you’re talking five or six jobs at least.
SteveAR, and Christy; we aint seen nothin’, yet. Wait until the campaign really gets going, and if the Maliki government collapes, or if bush “Saigon’s” it, and the parliament, out of existence in favor of some strongman; at that point, the fur will be flying, on and off the internet.
Redshift @ 58:
While reading this post and the comments, I was thinking about these FTAs, CAFTA and NAFTA, that are touted as so necessary for everybody – never mind the lukewarm and sometime hostile reaction in many partner countries. The most successful FTA is the European Union. The difference is that the EU operates free trade and movement of goods and people with transferable health care, access to public education, tax liabilities, etc.
Bustednuckles @ 64
It will hurt China too as it will deplete its value of FE reserves. China doesn’t want to be forced to revalue its yen any faster that it thinks appropriate – Japan obliged in the late 1980s and weathered a recession for the next decade. But if the Chinese are squeezed, they have no intention of taking it lying down. If they start to act on this threat, that is the end of the US$ as the reserve currency or the petro currency. If nothing else, Iraq and Afghanistan will come to a very abrupt end.
Adie: you got it, re: Dobbs.
He’s a shameless ratings whore, with a pronounced FauxNews willingness to gin up plenty of racism and hate for a couple of more points.
It wouldn’t surprise me to see Fox lure him away from CNN. Wouldn’t bother me, either. Then he’d be in the right place.
behindthefall @ 18
Maybe all that illegal wiretaping turned up some dirt on some of these people that the administration is blackmailing them with???
They pay taxes and the repubs like it this way because the have people paying taxes and not filing returns and/or not ever elegible to recieve benefits.
I meant yuan not yen in referring to the Chinese currency @ 143.
Steve-AR @ 137
First of all, I have posted here several times under my own screen name, “sunny”, in the last 18 months or so.
Second of all, the Dem party deserves trashing. Literally.
Lastly, over the weekend, several commenters here, and a couple of front pagers as well, expressed alarm at the quasi-corporate atmosphere of YKos and many others were wondering at the motivations and actual agenda of Kos himself. And while I realize most here are unwilling to question the agenda and background of leading rock star bloggers, others are not willing to blindly follow a potential right-wing mole over the abyss. Did no one find it interesting that Kos found it necessary to ban people who even mentioned the 2004 election might have been stolen?
The link I provided was to My Left Wing, a site many here probably click regularly. The piece was documented not only by research into the background of Kos, but by his own words. Information like that is important to some who feel we need real progressive leaders.
Tanbark @ 142
Most Republicans believe that Iraq is the Central Front in the Global War on Terror and therefore does not constitute “wasteful government spending”, but in the nature of “billions for defense, not one cent for tribute”.
Liberty, if they believe that what is happening in Iraq is part of the “waronterrr” and is making us safer, and presumably, they, and you, want to continue it, could you please ask them to remind the republicans running next year to include that in their talking points when they’re making their campaign speeches?
Thanks. :o)
Greg Miller at the LA Times wrote:
A retired Navy admiral with an almost academic demeanor, McConnell, 64, has spent most of his six months in the nation’s top espionage job making quiet internal changes in the sprawling intelligence community. Among his priorities have been giving agencies more incentives to work together and fixing problems in procurement systems for spy satellites.
But last week he plunged into what became a fierce political debate with significant implications, both for the war on terrorism and for the civil liberties of American citizens. After lobbying for the legal changes for more than a year, McConnell maneuvered himself into the position of passing judgment on each proposal that surfaced during the week, angering Democrats by declaring their bills inadequate.
He also engaged in extensive negotiations with Democrats, during which his apparent changes of position left some members suggesting on the House floor that the intelligence director had become a puppet for the White House.
At one point, House Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.) expressed bewilderment that McConnell had issued a statement rejecting the Democrats’ approach one day after he had told members that their measure “significantly enhances America’s security.”
Referring to McConnell’s subsequent criticism of the Democrats’ bill, Hoyer said, “I will tell you, it doesn’t sound like the Adm. McConnell with whom I have talked over the past few weeks.”
A spokesman for McConnell rejected assertions that he had changed his position or been used for political purposes by the White House. “The White House did not play any part in rejecting that bill,” said Ross Feinstein, a McConnell spokesman. McConnell “made his own decisions. He was clear all along on what he needed in the bill.”
In handling those negotiations, McConnell was thrust into a delicate position. By tradition, the nation’s top intelligence official is supposed to be insulated from political pressure or from debates over policy. But at the same time, the director is appointed by the president and serves as his top intelligence aide.
“He is the president’s senior intelligence advisor, not Congress’ senior intelligence advisor,” said Mark Lowenthal, a former top CIA official and intelligence historian. But, he added, “I don’t think McConnell would ever allow himself to be put in the position of doing the bidding of the White House. It’s just not who the guy is.”
There were signs Tuesday that some Democrats still regarded McConnell as a trusted figure. Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.), a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, defended her vote for the Republican version of the spy bill in part by circulating a letter she had received from McConnell describing the ways that the intelligence community would safeguard U.S. citizens’ privacy under the new espionage authorities.
Other congressional officials said McConnell’s negotiations left Democrats feeling blindsided. These officials said McConnell had initially agreed to certain provisions — including a sunset clause that would cause the legislation to expire in six months — and then abruptly changed position. In the end, Democrats fought to get the sunset clause attached to the final Republican bill.
It makes you want to throw the entire GOP political apparatus into debtor’s prison with their families, incommunicado, till they pay off the damage they have caused in recent years. A secret prison site in Albania, say, sounds about right. Will anybody miss them? Or even know about the debt repayment requirement? I’m feeling so bitter about last week’s FISA fiasco that I wouldn’t mind a sprinkling of democratic congresspeople among them.
jim oconnor @ 13
Thanks for such a clear statement. I agree completely.
Although i’ve always been a “bleeding heart liberal,” this is one issue on which I tend to bleed less.
Nearly everyone who’s an “illegal immigrant” [and sorry, if they came here illegally, they’re illegal, not “undocumented’] has a compelling story for being here. But so does the individual with a compelling story who’s stuck in Sudan or Bosnia or Gabon or Tibet.
We CAN’T be the welcoming soft place to land for everyone on the entire planet — heck, we can’t even take care of those who need help who are here already. There are other ways of helping our fellow citizens of the world without a big “c’mon down.”
While the “good” side of allowing unlimited immigration [responding to the stories of individual need] is always cited, the “down” side, as articulated by the poster, is often skipped over.
It’s tempting for the Dems to try to “capture the expanding Hispanic vote” by not taking action against illegal immigration, but more leadership, more long-term thinking and less pandering are what’s needed — and a repeal of CAFTA.
“Family Relocation Centers” huh… Sounds a lot like “Reservations” to me.
Guess history can (and will) repeat itself unless we work to change…
Katie Jensen @ 16
I think you’re buying into the current situation and not using your imagination to dream up another sensible way for us to handle the whole issue.
For example, why should immigration be tied to ‘border security’? Aren’t they really two separate issues? If we’re concerned about somebody bringing drugs or nukes over the border, then that’s definitely a security problem. But, individuals and families who want to immigrate to America(?), is that a ’security’ problem?
Separate the two and you get a much better basis for thinking about our real options.
On security, our response should relate to our perceived risk. Do we guard every inch of the Canadian border, the North Atlantic border? No. We guard at road entry points and ports and we might want to guard the ports more carefully (container shipping).
On immigration we have to decide where to set the rate of in-flow for people from different parts of the globe or we have to accept anyone who wants to come and then regulate them differently when they’re here.
I suggest the latter: it’s our traditional American ideal to let the tired and down-trodden to come here for a better life. Let them work and contribute to America. We’re a big country. We can handle it.
Language?
Many people are freaked-out by non-English-speaking foreigners. Can we or should we require English-language-only for entry? I think it’s entirely debatable and with merits on both sides.
Broken down this way, isn’t it easier to handle the issues?
I say we should solve the problem and take the issue from Repubs, but Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Illinois) of the House leadership says it should be put off for a while. Eh.
PB @ 100
We might do well to recall that immigrants tend to send a large portion of their incomes back to their home countries and that helps them to build their middle-classes. As that happens and perhaps as a Progressive Democratic US government helps Mexico and others to improve their economies, then there will be less natural pressure to come to America to have a good life.
Also, allowing immigrants into America legally to work would require companies to pay at least the minimum wage to ALL their workers. That changes a lot. If they can’t hire illegals for lower-than-minimum-wage, then maybe they wouldn’t be so quick to hire them at all. Of course, those who speak American English would still do well, but those who don’t would really have to compete with American workers.
sona @ 150
You have a yen for Yuan?
Daylight come and yuan go home!
Down on the Yuannie River, long long ago.
When America stood with us against Hitler, we loved you. We believed in your myth. Now you are a torture state, and we no more believe in your myth than we do in Egypt’s or Syria’s or any other of the horrible shitholes that torture their political enemies.