again

Dong

How did Gordon Brown get Sean Connery’s voice transplanted into him?

Ravin!

the British, who *decided* to get out, cut and ran.

Ergo, they were, by (republican) definition, “defeated”.

The British know that handling defeat is part of being a power player. Their defeat in North America preceded their victory over Napoleon and their consolidation of a global empire that made them the most powerful nation on Earth.

I thought they said they were leaving because everything is so hunky dory…

Pth, pth, pth.

Gives whole new meaning to “clusterf**k”, eh?

Damn, caught napping, top ten?

Payback for demanding the release of five Brits from Gitmo.

So, does that mean that there are a whole bunch of armed, pissed off occupation resisters out of control and on their own in Basra…grrrreat!! I wonder if they’ll stay in the south? No wonder they said things are going to get worse. Heckava job.

America is only getting uglier and uglier by the day.

-GSD

Travesty, thy name is Bu’ush.

EPU’d item:

Pelosi Action Alert:

For all you Connecticut residents, take note.

Nancy Pelosi will be in Stamford on Thursday, August 9 at a fundraiser for Chris Murphy.

This is your chance to chat with Nancy about FISA.

Here are all the details:

Speaker of the House
Nancy Pelosi

Thursday, August 9th
12:00 – 1:30 pm

Il Falco Restaurant

59 Broad Street, Stamford

$250 ~ Guest $500 ~ Friend
$1,000 ~ Supporter $2,300 ~ Host

Paid for by the Committee to Re-Elect Chris Murphy.
Contributions are not tax deductible.
Corporate contributions are prohibited.

Description:

Where:
59 Broad Street
Stamford, CT
06902
When: 12:00 PM – 01:30 PM

http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/event.do?eventId=695

whew. gettin’ heated downstairs.

LS @ 11

So, does that mean that there are a whole bunch of armed, pissed off occupation resisters out of control and on their own in Basra…grrrreat!! I wonder if they’ll stay in the south? No wonder they said things are going to get worse. Heckava job.

And, when it comes time for us to Declare Victory and leave, we gotta get out through the south.

Doesn’t that kind of depend on having an agreed upon definition of victory? From my perspective here in room in the trees near the lake it seems that there really is not an agreed upon goal let alone an agreed upon strategy for achieving that goal so anyone talking about defeat or victory is simply farting into the wind and telling people the flowers are lovely . . . .

*xyz @ 14

EPU’d item:

Pelosi Action Alert:

For all you Connecticut residents, take note.

Nancy Pelosi will be in Stamford on Thursday, August 9 at a fundraiser for Chris Murphy.

This is your chance to chat with Nancy about FISA.

Here are all the details:

Speaker of the House
Nancy Pelosi

Thursday, August 9th
12:00 – 1:30 pm

Il Falco Restaurant

59 Broad Street, Stamford

$250 ~ Guest $500 ~ Friend
$1,000 ~ Supporter $2,300 ~ Host

Paid for by the Committee to Re-Elect Chris Murphy.
Contributions are not tax deductible.
Corporate contributions are prohibited.

Description:

Where:
59 Broad Street
Stamford, CT
06902
When: 12:00 PM – 01:30 PM

http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/event.do?eventId=695

Nice catch. They can run, but they can’t hide!

Murdoch lieutenant praises Brown

Gordon Brown will turn out to be a “formidable” prime minister, according to the News International executive chairman, Les Hinton.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk…..67,00.html

i guess the british don’t have a victory that US forces have in baghdad

May Gordon Brown prove be the (hu)man that George Bush can never even hope to be.

And, when it comes time for us to Declare Victory and leave, we gotta get out through the south.

What a coincidence. Now we can’t leave Irak because the British fucked up the escape route, I’m guessing.

http://www.commondreams.org/ar…..8/04/2981/

George W. Bush is churning out executive orders and Presidential directives just as fast as Dick Cheney’s lawyers can fill up yellow legal pads.

The power that he is asserting-no, grabbing-with these executive orders is astonishing and alarming. Such power imperils our liberties and our democratic system of government.

Two weeks ago, Bush issued an extraordinary executive order entitled, “Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq.”

I just heard about this on Democracy Now

What’s the British equivalent of “cheese-eating surrender monkeys”?

On a serious note, my god what poor diplomacy. Won’t be long before we’ve got the kind of “friendly” relationship with the UK that we now have with Russia. Anyone who interferes with the Bush Fantasy Empire becomes an enemy of the homeland.

I think this is the beginning of the “gets worse before it gets better” phase as the Bush dead-enders act more and more recklessly before they’re utterly defeated.

jayt @ 22

And, when it comes time for us to Declare Victory and leave, we gotta get out through the south.

What a coincidence. Now we can’t leave Irak because the British fucked up the escape route, I’m guessing.

it’s never Bush’s fault, not ever.

jayt @ 22

I noticed this over at Swopa’s place.

Someone at the Pentagon needs to read the Anabasis, starting yesterday.

puppethead @ 24

What’s the British equivalent of “cheese-eating surrender monkeys”?

On a serious note, my god what poor diplomacy. Won’t be long before we’ve got the kind of “friendly” relationship with the UK that we now have with Russia. Anyone who interferes with the Bush Fantasy Empire becomes an enemy of the homeland.

I think this is the beginning of the “gets worse before it gets better” phase as the Bush dead-enders act more and more recklessly before they’re utterly defeated.

Like I said, wait until they really unleash upon those enemies of the state who have failed to support the leader enough.

The Bunker Days are almost upon us.

-GSD

Unfortunately, the British experience in the South is probably a harbinger of what awaits us when we finally decide to withdraw. It ain’t gonna be pretty, but due to BushCo incompetence, it really can’t be avoided.

Bush’s strategy isn’t really to win; on some level, even he understands that. What he doesn’t want is to lose badly, especially not on his watch. Its going to come down to Vietnam all over again.

So he & Cheney are planning right now on how to blame the final conflagration on the Democrats. This is what the Blue Dogs fear the most.

Bob in HI

Bob, the only problem with their (Bush/Cheney) strategy is that the window of opportunity is closing fast.

They must also be haunted by the knowledge that they are always wrong in whatever they do.

-GSD

randiego @ 15

whew. gettin’ heated downstairs.

I concur…

GSD @ 29

Bob, the only problem with their (Bush/Cheney) strategy is that the window of opportunity is closing fast.

They must also be haunted by the knowledge that they are always wrong in whatever they do.

-GSD

I don’t think they are haunted at all.

CTuttle @ 30

randiego @ 15

whew. gettin’ heated downstairs.

I concur…

yeah, bring up an non-controversial subject like the draft and the fur starts flyin!

Like I said, wait until they really unleash upon those enemies of the state who have failed to support the leader enough.

I’m not worried. I’ve supported everything the president has done – everything. He’s a genius, a man’s man, a visionary, history will glorify his name… can’t get enough of him.

Hi NSA! Please just ignore all those other previous comments left here under my name – wasn’t me, nope, nuh-uh, must have been some other good-lookin’ guy.

There, that oughta do it.

When anyone connected to Rupert Murdoch (Hinton; Gordon Brown) praises someone, I am suspect.

CTuttle @ 30

randiego @ 15

whew. gettin’ heated downstairs.

I concur…

yeah. Jeez, if I said that kinda stuff I’d have been GROUNDED……

randiego @ 32

CTuttle @ 30

I concur…

yeah, bring up an non-controversial subject like the draft and the fur starts flyin!

“…non-controversial…???” ;-)

OT: Democracy Now has a wonderful program today.

John Pilger, author and filmmaker, is giving a lengthy speech about journalism, propaganda, war, how citizens are duped.

It’s probably available at Democracy Now’s website (dot org, I believe).

Interesting discussion of Hillary here. (Including more blogging from my husband Demetrius than I’ve seen all year!)

Renee in Ohio @ 38

Interesting discussion of Hillary here. (Including more blogging from my husband Demetrius than I’ve seen all year!)

Ya crackin’ the whip…?!!! 8-)

From the top!

Well ‘Intelligence’ can be a great misnomer. But the dorks are at the WaPo for not having the discernment to know the statement is bullshit.

By what measure was this ‘Intelligence’ man mouthing off?

Number of soldiers proportionately patrolling/administered territory?

Comparative size of British ‘butcher’s bill’? (Partial quote from Wavell)

Number of Iraqi dead?

On all counts, sadly, the figures are invidious to the US ones.

Thusly spake Jacqrat downstairs @ 321:

Jacqrat says:
August 7th, 2007 at 3:32 pm

[snip]

Is it too late to craft a suitable “Kiss Float” to follow Nancy and others around this August?

I think that is a really great idea! Base it on one of Nancy’s kissy-poo sessions with Georgie boy (there are too many to choose from). Democrats did NOT win last November on a ticket of making nice to George. So far as I am concerned, Pelosi has sold out.

Bob in HI

Elliott @ 31

GSD @ 29

Bob, the only problem with their (Bush/Cheney) strategy is that the window of opportunity is closing fast.

They must also be haunted by the knowledge that they are always wrong in whatever they do.

-GSD

I don’t think they are haunted at all.

Yup! They be the “haunters”. We be the “hauntees”.

I’m sure Shrub will never utter; “Heckuva job, Gordon Brownie!” ;-)

We have a pretty full plate. Let’s review what is on it.

(1) Defend the Constitution from the assault by those who would seize power. (Short term)

(2) To end the rule of a cravenly criminal administration (Medium term)

(3) To end an illegal war based on lies, that is disasterous to U.S. long term interests.

We took a big hit on (1) with the FISA capitulation. We took a hit on (2) when we took impeachment off the table, though some say that doing so was necessary to prevent the administration from continuing in a different guise. So far, I haven’t seen a single accomplishment on (3) and it is not because we didn’t have an opportunity.

Given this record, it is unwise to take the next presidential election for granted.

oddmommy @ 35

CTuttle @ 30

I concur…

yeah. Jeez, if I said that kinda stuff I’d have been GROUNDED……

Did we have a troll infestation? I got outa there just before the cannons started firing.

Bob in HI

Is anyone going to be live-blogging the big event? Lots of foreign policy implications. Of course, I refer to the Yankee-Blue Jay game.

BigMitch @ 46

Is anyone going to be live-blogging the big event? Lots of foreign policy implications. Of course, I refer to the Yankee-Blue Jay game.

you got a favorite in this one, Mitch?

;)

candidates are taking the stage.

The candidates are lining up now — I sure hope they put the hook on Tucker Carlson. Bleah!

Teddy ygm

All that talk about taking two years to withdraw and the cost of cleaning the equipment is more pony talk. It assumes we leave on our own terms, in an orderly fashion.

The increasingly likely scenario is that our military is going to face a full-scale bugout with either a mad dash under fire to Kuwait or an attempt at a massive airlift. Both will be extremely dangerous. And 90% or more of the equipment will be left behind.

The phased withdrawal and Hillary’s stabilization force of 75,000 or whatever to leave behind is a dangerously naive fantasy.

I thought the Brits basically declared “mission accomplished” in Basra before they started planning their pullout :)

Bob Schacht @ 45

Did we have a troll infestation?

Is it useful to introduce the possibility that the proper definition of “troll” is not merely anyone anybody personally disagrees with? I think that was a good discussion downstairs, and the disagreements seemed to revolve around the very legitimate question of whether or not it would be helpful to revive military conscription.

ygm=?

Sometimes we in this house feel we just want to wind the Democrats up.

GSD @ 29

Bob, the only problem with their (Bush/Cheney) strategy is that the window of opportunity is closing fast.

They must also be haunted by the knowledge that they are always wrong in whatever they do.

-GSD

It ain’t closing anywhere near fast enough for me. Who knew two weeks ago that they could pull off this FISA stunt and get away with it? How many more FISA fiascos do we have to suffer through before someone takes Pelosi by the shoulders and shakes some sense into her? Smelling salts don’t seem strong enough at this point.

I don’t know if we can actually find a pix of Pelosi kissing George to make a “Kiss float”, but we ought to be able to find a pix of Pelosi and Bush shaking hands and grinning at each other over a bare table.

Bob in HI

And America has been defeated in the North. What is the point?

Time to buy shares in Crescent Sea Condo Development LTD, Iranian Stock Exchange. The rumour is that the Mullahs are taking a goodly position in these shares.

Elliott @ 47

BigMitch @ 46

Is anyone going to be live-blogging the big event? Lots of foreign policy implications. Of course, I refer to the Yankee-Blue Jay game.

you got a favorite in this one, Mitch?

;)

Let the games be played!!! ;-)

BigMitch @ 53

ygm=?

you got mail

I do think they are haunted because imposters always live in fear of being exposed.

-GSD

CTuttle @ 36

randiego @ 32

yeah, bring up an non-controversial subject like the draft and the fur starts flyin!

“…non-controversial…???” ;-)

snarkage. sorry.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 54

Sometimes we in this house feel we just want to wind the Democrats up.

Not required with Repugs. Batteries always included.

Looks like Gravel is not there today.

I hope Keith isn’t hampered too much by the labor subject of the debate, and is allowed to ask some stuff of his own.

MSNBC wouldn’t take questions – said I had to go through AFL-CIO. I sent one anyway.

If there weren’t enough parallels to Vietnam
It’s easy for soldiers to score herion in Afghanistan

Thank you, ellie

Craig Johnson @ 56

And America has been defeated in the North. What is the point?

Defeatothugs all around :)

GSD @ 59

I do think they are haunted because imposters always live in fear of being exposed.

-GSD

I wish I could agree with you, but I cannot,
they are without souls.

It’s felt the imperative is to defeat the Republicans soundly in 2008. And then deal, harshly if necessary, with the Democrats.

Blub @ 52

I thought the Brits basically declared “mission accomplished” in Basra before they started planning their pullout :)

Bob Schacht @ 45

Did we have a troll infestation?

Is it useful to introduce the possibility that the proper definition of “troll” is not merely anyone anybody personally disagrees with? I think that was a good discussion downstairs, and the disagreements seemed to revolve around the very legitimate question of whether or not it would be helpful to revive military conscription.

Good discussions are fine. But when they start descending into name calling and hostile language, they are no longer “good”, IMHO.

Bob in HI

Millineryman @ 64

If there weren’t enough parallels to Vietnam
It’s easy for soldiers to score herion in Afghanistan

I saw that, makes me sick to my stomach.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 68

It’s felt the imperative is to defeat the Republicans soundly in 2008. And then deal, harshly if necessary, with the Democrats.

This is job 1, IMHO

GSD @ 59

I do think they are haunted because imposters always live in fear of being exposed.

-GSD

Generally I’d agree with you on this, but I’m more leaning to the undeniable fact that Junya and Deadeye are far, far beyond this soul-searching.

Is there an evil equivalent to Nirvana?

1st question to Dodd, whom I like more an more every day

Hillary’s dad was a Bears fan.

Is there an evil equivalent to Nirvana?

You’re soaking in it.

This is a long read, but there is an amazing similarity of the framing of propaganda so familiar to us now – chilling and shocking:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb36.htm

Mad Dogs @ 72

GSD @ 59

I do think they are haunted because imposters always live in fear of being exposed.

-GSD

Generally I’d agree with you on this, but I’m more leaning to the undeniable fact that Junya and Deadeye are far, far beyond this soul-searching.

Is there an evil equivalent to Nirvana?

Um … Faux Noise ?!!

Oklahoma kiddo @ 68

It’s felt the imperative is to defeat the Republicans soundly in 2008. And then deal, harshly if necessary, with the Democrats.

Speaking personally, I was kind of hoping that was the strategy in ‘06. I think that we need to demand that Dem presidential candidates swear pledges that they WILL personally commit to undo, as president, shrub’s acts of overreach, within the first 90 days of being in office.. Patriot Act, MCA, the FISA law or whatever it’ll be renewed as by that time, tax cuts for the rich, etc etc. Whatever else they campaign on, we should force them to undo shrub’s damage.. otherwise, it’ll be business as usual once they’re elected in ‘08, just like it’s business as usual for the Dem congress we elected in ‘06

Mad Dogs @ 72

Generally I’d agree with you on this, but I’m more leaning to the undeniable fact that Junya and Deadeye are far, far beyond this soul-searching.

Is there an evil equivalent to Nirvana?

far be it from me to criticize another person’s religion, or sincerity, but ….

Bob Schacht @ 69

Blub @ 52

I thought the Brits basically declared “mission accomplished” in Basra before they started planning their pullout :)

Is it useful to introduce the possibility that the proper definition of “troll” is not merely anyone anybody personally disagrees with? I think that was a good discussion downstairs, and the disagreements seemed to revolve around the very legitimate question of whether or not it would be helpful to revive military conscription.

Good discussions are fine. But when they start descending into name calling and hostile language, they are no longer “good”, IMHO.

Bob in HI

Spirited debate is a good thing, yet they usually devolve into the mud slinging mode to defend the indefensible!!!

Uh, oh. Seems like Obama wants to talk about Pakistan.

Petrocelli @ 77

Mad Dogs @ 72

Generally I’d agree with you on this, but I’m more leaning to the undeniable fact that Junya and Deadeye are far, far beyond this soul-searching.

Is there an evil equivalent to Nirvana?

Um … Faux Noise ?!!

Mi Amigo!!! Que Pasa? 8-)

solai @ 81

Uh, oh. Seems like Obama wants to talk about Pakistan.

…not voting for him.

CTuttle @ 82

Petrocelli @ 77

Um … Faux Noise ?!!

Mi Amigo!!! Que Pasa? 8-)

Hey CT, thought I’d watch TV with y’all until I get called for dinner … *g*

I read powwow’s timeline of events on FISA vote and wonder what the general opinion is: Is Whitehouse (D-RI) still a Good Guy? To me, it sounded as though he was working on the right side, but I was putting lots of hope between the lines. (There was that participation in the unanimous vote on Liebrman’s casus belli bill.)

Gravel couldn’t afford the hotel bill or something? I hear Chicago’s expensive…

hi pups

basra is ‘lost’ & run by rival shi’ite gangs & ‘mafia’ altho three of four south provinces are ‘tamedl by the brits. basra is the port we leave from if we leave

Hmmm… I’m luvin’ Edwards!!!

LS @ 76

This is a long read, but there is an amazing similarity of the framing of propaganda so familiar to us now – chilling and shocking:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb36.htm

This part looks so familiar:

Is your confidence in the Führer greater, more faithful and more unshakable than ever before? Are you absolutely and completely ready to follow him wherever he goes and do all that is necessary to bring the war to a victorious end? (The crowd rises as one man. It displays unprecedented enthusiasm. Thousands of voices join in shouting: “Führer command, we follow!” A wave of shouts of Heil flows through the hall. As if by command, the flags and standards are raised as the highest expression of the sacred moment in which the crowd honors the Führer.

I can see it now. Junya and Deadeye on their knees in the Oval Office chanting: “I have a dream.”

Go Edwards Go !!!

TeddySanFran @ 87

hi pups

basra is ‘lost’ & run by rival shi’ite gangs & ‘mafia’ altho three of four south provinces are ‘tamedl by the brits. basra is the port we leave from if we leave

Hi Teddy, liked the video!

don’t like the prognosis, tho.

Petrocelli @ 84

CTuttle @ 82

Mi Amigo!!! Que Pasa? 8-)

Hey CT, thought I’d watch TV with y’all until I get called for dinner … *g*

Ya watchin’ the Debate?

TeddySanFran @ 87

hi pups

basra is ‘lost’ & run by rival shi’ite gangs & ‘mafia’ altho three of four south provinces are ‘tamedl by the brits. basra is the port we leave from if we leave

uh oh. Good point. Welp.I hope somebody is holding that road into Kuwait, and that we still have some Kurdish friends, ’cause having unimpeded access to an exit in a theater fire is very good thing, and this show is definitely on fire…

I assume So!!! *g*

CTuttle @ 88

Hmmm… I’m luvin’ Edwards!!!

Great minds … *g*

KO: Should public money subsidize sports stadiums?

Kucinich’s answer — instead of spending all that money on stadiums, why not just buy the team?

Good idea!

Kucinich is my choice.. and Elizabeth Edwards

CTuttle @ 92

Petrocelli @ 84

Hey CT, thought I’d watch TV with y’all until I get called for dinner … *g*

Ya watchin’ the Debate?

Biden is already sounding flustered … easy Joe … no pressure …

KO: Obama, you voted to fund building this stadium. Was that a good call?

Obama: Yes, because it created jobs.

Dennis is hitting all the high points! No Nafta, WTO… Uhoh, gotta run Ya’ll, I’m dvr’ing the Debate!!! ;-)

LS @ 76

This is a long read, but there is an amazing similarity of the framing of propaganda so familiar to us now – chilling and shocking:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb36.htm

You had me at “delivered to a carefully selected audience in Berlin”

CTuttle @ 94

I assume So!!! *g*

Canadians are so smart, we answer our own questions … *g*

We (Lahoma and I) are looking at the forum. Perhaps we will change our minds on one or two things. Or about one or two people. We’ll see.

BigMitch @ 101

LS @ 76

This is a long read, but there is an amazing similarity of the framing of propaganda so familiar to us now – chilling and shocking:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb36.htm

You had me at “delivered to a carefully selected audience in Berlin”

So much of it is uncanny and no speechwriter’s accident either.

BigMitch @ 71

Oklahoma kiddo @ 68

It’s felt the imperative is to defeat the Republicans soundly in 2008. And then deal, harshly if necessary, with the Democrats.

This is job 1, IMHO

Absolutely!! Any Dem is better than any Republican. If we don’t take back the machinery of govt in ‘08, we can kiss our asses good by. The fascists have been working for decades to get to this point; if we don’t have the same resolve, we deserve to loose. (Am I correct that the FISA “thing” has brought “concern trolls” to FDL? I think the posts by “new” screen names about how they aren’t giving another dime to the party, blah..blah.; one guy even called it the “Democrat Party”..oh well, I guess it’s a sign of FDL success.)

CTuttle @ 100

Dennis

…not voting for him either.

I take it this isn’t a stirring debate?

We do not like NAFTA, CAFTA, the DLC, and the ‘third way’.

Um Obama … Canada does not have a President … not that I’d expect you to know that …

Steve-AR @ 105

BigMitch @ 71

This is job 1, IMHO

Absolutely!! Any Dem is better than any Republican. If we don’t take back the machinery of govt in ‘08, we can kiss our asses good by. The fascists have been working for decades to get to this point; if we don’t have the same resolve, we deserve to loose. (Am I correct that the FISA “thing” has brought “concern trolls” to FDL? I think the posts by “new” screen names about how they aren’t giving another dime to the party, blah..blah.; one guy even called it the “Democrat Party”..oh well, I guess it’s a sign of FDL success.)

Steve — You have a conspiratorial mind. It’s a good thing.

Any democrat is better than any republican: think supreme court justices and you will see why this is so absolutely true.

Elliott @ 107

I take it this isn’t a stirring debate?

Not yet. Keith has reserved the right for ‘discretionary’ questions for himself, though…

jayt @ 111

Elliott @ 107

I take it this isn’t a stirring debate?

Not yet. Keith has reserved the right for ‘discretionary’ questions for himself, though…

thanks!

Talking about NAFTA. Nobody likes it. Especially Richardson.

behindthefall @ 85

I read powwow’s timeline of events on FISA vote and wonder what the general opinion is: Is Whitehouse (D-RI) still a Good Guy? To me, it sounded as though he was working on the right side, but I was putting lots of hope between the lines. (There was that participation in the unanimous vote on Liebrman’s casus belli bill.)

Are any of them really good guys?

Remember all those subpoenies that the Democratic Senators and Representatives (including Whitehouse) were “threatening”?

You know, for Kindasleeza Rice, Rover, Bolton, Miers, and the rest of the mug’s gallery that is this administration.

Jest how many of them have been issued? Jest how many are ever going to be issued?

What did the Democrat say to the Repug: “My Kabuki or yours?”

Take the Prime Minister of Canada to the Mat, Biden ?!!

WTF ?!!

TeddySanFran @ 87

hi pups

basra is ‘lost’ & run by rival shi’ite gangs & ‘mafia’ altho three of four south provinces are ‘tamedl by the brits. basra is the port we leave from if we leave

What was that old adage? A storm in every port?

“Eastern Bolshevism is not only a doctrine of terrorism, it is also the practice of terrorism. It strives for its goals with an infernal thoroughness, using every resource at its disposal, regardless of the welfare, prosperity or peace of the peoples it ruthlessly oppresses. What would England and America do if, in the worst case, Europe fell into Bolshevism’s arms? Will London perhaps persuade Bolshevism to stop at the English Channel? I have already said that Bolshevism has its foreign legions in the form of communist parties in every democratic nation. None of these states can think it is immune to domestic Bolshevism.”

solai @ 113

Talking about NAFTA. Nobody likes it. Especially Richardson.

I do

This is the first dem debate where I’m not cheering. Refusing to be Charlie Brown, I guess.

And we dislike intensly ‘outsourcing’.

Kucinch looks good on NAFTA.

Edwards takes a hard shot at Hillary.

Petrocelli @ 115

Take the Prime Minister of Canada to the Mat, Biden ?!!

WTF ?!!

Huh? What did he do now!

Kucinich does stir the pot, doesn’t he?

Can’t help it – I like him.

Blub @ 118

solai @ 113

Talking about NAFTA. Nobody likes it. Especially Richardson.

I do

NAFTA would only work if you can ALSO legally work anywhere within the block. Otherwise the companies just outsource to the spot with the cheapest labor, who are held there through border and immigrant policies…

solai @ 113

Talking about NAFTA. Nobody likes it. Especially Richardson.

A little pre-mature, eh?

Kucinich, I believe.

Blub @ 118

solai @ 113

Talking about NAFTA. Nobody likes it. Especially Richardson.

I do

NAFTA was a lot better for the US than it was for Canada.

BigMitch @ 71

Oklahoma kiddo @ 68

It’s felt the imperative is to defeat the Republicans soundly in 2008. And then deal, harshly if necessary, with the Democrats.

This is job 1, IMHO

Not for me. Job #1 is to defend the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law. Job #2 is to expose those who are playing fast and loose with the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law.

Bob in HI

PB @ 124

Blub @ 118

I do

NAFTA would only work if you can ALSO legally work anywhere within the block. Otherwise the companies just outsource to the spot with the cheapest labor, who are held there through border and immigrant policies…

And the places with the cheapest labour are not signatories to NAFTA.

Obama gets a soft ball and misses horribly. (T-shirt question.)

I’d like to see a hardball question about Sherman anti-trust.

“As countless letters from the homeland and the front have shown, by the way, the entire German people agrees. Everyone knows that if we lose, all will be destroyed.”

Oklahoma kiddo @ 68

It’s felt the imperative is to defeat the Republicans soundly in 2008. And then deal, harshly if necessary, with the Democrats.

Yep, and yes – it’s necessary!

Obama talking about the tax credits for companies that move factories abroad.
This has been talked about for years. And absolutely no action.

Petrocelli @ 115

Take the Prime Minister of Canada to the Mat, Biden ?!!

WTF ?!!

The menace to the north. You can feel the cold that emanates from there, especially in the winter. Evil I tell you, evil.

“We are therefore compelled to adopt a series of measures that are not essential for the war effort in themselves, but seem necessary to maintain moral at home and at the front. The optics of the war, that is, how things outwardly appear, is of decisive importance in this fourth year of war. In view of the superhuman sacrifices that the front makes each day, it has a basic right to expect that no one at home claims the right to ignore the war and its demands. And not only the front demands this, but the overwhelming part of the homeland”

Bob,

If Dems don’t win big in 2008 you can kiss the Constitution good-bye. If you make protecting the constituion job one, and blow the election, you will not have preserved the Constitution for your children.

Oh, is it the fault of the brits? Yikes!

—Betsy back in Texas

PB @ 124

NAFTA would only work if you can ALSO legally work anywhere within the block. Otherwise the companies just outsource to the spot with the cheapest labor, who are held there through border and immigrant policies…

…agree that it needs to be supplemented with broad development support for Mexico and real productivity growth there.. but outsourcing is going to happen. Would you rather that good jobs go to the cheaplaborstan of the moment or would you rather see Mexico increase in prosperity and join with the US and Canada in true economic partnership? I’m sorry, but half my city is in Mexico. Mexican prosperity IS my prosperity.

Anyone else watching the dems debate on MSNBC?

TexBetsy @ 140

Anyone else watching the dems debate on MSNBC?

vicariously

Oooh, Hilary showing some anger at the
Bush adm debt.

Has this link been mentioned yet?

At YearlyKos, Netroots Come of Age
The Nation – By Ari Melber – Aug 6, 2007 (News Analysis) – Full Story
Clinton strained to mold her meeting back into a controlled event. She was the only candidate to use her staff as a buffer, tapping her Internet director, Peter Daou, to pick questions and bringing three other senior aides onstage, though none of them spoke. She filibustered most of the time, taking more than eleven minutes to answer the first question alone–a simple query about fixing the unpopular No Child Left Behind Act. That softball came from an official with the National Education Association, who either didn’t know or didn’t care that this scarce time was carved out for bloggers and activists without insider access, not for interest-group sponsors. More »

You can review this story.

Bob in HI

TexBetsy @ 140

Anyone else watching the dems debate on MSNBC?

Yup.

OT, but … R.I.P., NYT

The NYT recently raised its weekday cost from $1 to $1.25. This weekend it cropped its format from 8-column to 6-column. Keeping the height and the number of pages the same, each word would cost 67% more.

To keep the same number of words in the newspaper, and thus the same level of reportage, 1/4 more pages would have to appear. However, the number of pages so far is actually less than or equal to the number of pages before the change: the front section today has 20 pages, the Metro has a mere 6.

Think what you will of the MSM, if we are to have the tools necessary to turn around this — OK, I’ll use the word — Bush dictatorship, the NYT would have been a powerful lever. I think we have just seen the lever fracture and crumble; the NYT is on its way to becoming either a local rag or a tabloid.

First they lost Russell Baker, then they went for color that worked less than half the time, then the typeface got sloppy, then the intellectual honesty went, and now there is not even space for content.

R.I.P., NYT.

Did KO ask them about FISA?

I love Kucinich. Not voting for him, but he really speaks his mind.

Kucinich – “used to be a myth that if you dug a hole deep enough, you’d end up in China – well, we’re there”!

jayt @ 148

Kucinich – “used to be a myth that if you dug a hole deep enough, you’d end up in China – well, we’re there”!

That was a great line.

jayt @ 148

Kucinich – “used to be a myth that if you dug a hole deep enough, you’d end up in China – well, we’re there”!

he gets extra points for that one!

LS @ 146

Did KO ask them about FISA?

Not yet. Maybe he won’t. Maybe these will all be labor questions. I hope not.

Lahoma is making popcorn with lots of butter. And the smell is killing me.

Blub @ 139

PB @ 124

NAFTA would only work if you can ALSO legally work anywhere within the block. Otherwise the companies just outsource to the spot with the cheapest labor, who are held there through border and immigrant policies…

…agree that it needs to be supplemented with broad development support for Mexico and real productivity growth there.. but outsourcing is going to happen. Would you rather that good jobs go to the cheaplaborstan of the moment or would you rather see Mexico increase in prosperity and join with the US and Canada in true economic partnership? I’m sorry, but half my city is in Mexico. Mexican prosperity IS my prosperity.

Thank you – I agree with your main point here. Though I question that what we have between Canada and the US is a true economic partnership. That’s not how it looks from my side of the border.

LS @ 146

Did KO ask them about FISA?

No. Nafta.

Iraq questions after the break.

No way is Keith gonna let FISA go unanswered, imo.

TexBetsy @ 140

Anyone else watching the dems debate on MSNBC?

We’re there.

This Forum is everything it needs to be
at this moment in time. effin great!

BigMitch @ 121

Edwards takes a hard shot at Hillary.

He’s going for “angry young man on a mission” and it’s working for me.

Everything OKK says makes damn good sense to me.

Obama is losing me on Iraq and Pakistan.

“What happens if we leave Irak and Al-Qaeda takes over?”

Richardson – strike one
Obama – strike two.
Biden – lets the pitch go.

why doesn’t somebody say that Al-Qaeda will get its ass kicked if left to the Iraqi’s?

It really does appear to me that Kucinich is winning this debate. I can’t figure out why he is summarily dismissed as a candidate, when he really has a lot of very good ideas, perhaps the best of all of them. Yet he’s not taken nearly as seriously. Why?

TexBetsy @ 138

Oh, is it the fault of the brits? Yikes!

—Betsy back in Texas

Blaming our lonely & onliest ally seems a short-sighted approach, doesn’t it? I wonder if this intelligence spokesman is the one from Cheney’s shop who arrived in Baghdad not so long ago.

How was your trip home, TexB?

Edwards,

Canned speech, that is non-responsive to KO’s question.

Yet he’s (Kucinich) not taken nearly as seriously. Why?

‘Cause he’s short and funny-looking?

BigMitch @ 137

Bob,

If Dems don’t win big in 2008 you can kiss the Constitution good-bye. If you make protecting the constituion job one, and blow the election, you will not have preserved the Constitution for your children.

You are making the assumption that IF Democrats win big in 2000, THEN the Constitution will be safe because the Democrats will fix everything. I am not that confident. I am worried that if Democrats win big in 2008 without making an issue of the Constitutional abuses, they will be perfectly happy to keep all the executive powers that Georgie has grabbed for the president, and our country will slide into Fascism anyway.

I am making a different assumption: That if we make defending the Constitution Job #1, we will
(a) win points from the electorate for doing the right thing, and win big;
(b) win over the Bruce Fein/Bob Barr Republicans who actually care about the Constitution, and succeed in starting the impeachment bandwagon rolling
(c) educate the public about what is really at stake (most of them have no idea)
(d) restore public confidence in the impeachment process.

In other words, I see defending the Constitution as full of plusses. If we do it right, besides all of the above, we can beat back Republican whining that we’re just a bunch of vindictive hate mongers who want to beat up on Bush. Please remember that is a Republican talking point.

Bob in HI

Kucinich really is progressive on Iraq.

TeddySanFran @ 163

TexBetsy @ 138

Oh, is it the fault of the brits? Yikes!

—Betsy back in Texas

Blaming our lonely & onliest ally seems a short-sighted approach, doesn’t it? I wonder if this intelligence spokesman is the one from Cheney’s shop who arrived in Baghdad not so long ago.

How was your trip home, TexB?

Trip home was uneventful after I got the wheelchair tire fixed TWICE this morning. ;)

TeddySanFran @ 163

TexBetsy @ 138

Oh, is it the fault of the brits? Yikes!

—Betsy back in Texas

Blaming our lonely & onliest ally seems a short-sighted approach, doesn’t it? I wonder if this intelligence spokesman is the one from Cheney’s shop who arrived in Baghdad not so long ago.

How was your trip home, TexB?

The Brits may have lost in the south – but there is some wisdom in leaving when you are in a war you aren’t winning and can’t win. Too bad the Americans don’t have that much sense.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 167

Kucinich really is progressive on Iraq.

He’s wonderful, and I thought he won the first debate as well.

Keith nails Obama on his late decision on the supplemental.

Iraq: if al Qaeda took over Iraq, then what? A thoroughly stupid question.

Richardson: withdraw, protect US, prosecute war on terror

Obama: no good options, phased redeployment, troops in the region

Biden: soft partition

Hillary: redeploying carefully, responsibly; pressure on Iraqi government; diplomacy

Dodd: withdraw over 7 months; no arms to Saudis if no support for us in Iraq

Edwards: 50,000 out now; try for reconciliation; regional diplomacy; if things go south, must plan for

Kucinich: get out of Iraq now; international peace keeping force

jayt @ 161

“What happens if we leave Irak and Al-Qaeda takes over?”

Richardson – strike one
Obama – strike two.
Biden – lets the pitch go.

why doesn’t somebody say that Al-Qaeda will get its ass kicked if left to the Iraqi’s?

If America withdraws from Iraq, Iraq will be over-run by Iraqis.

I think that the hypothetical Iraq question is going to backfire on the dems. I can hear Rove’s machine starting to crank up.

If America withdraws from Iraq, Iraq will be over-run by Iraqis.

No! Anything but that. (Running from the room in horror.)

Keith asks why Hill waited until after Barack voted.

She ain’t gonna answer that. Wonder if he’ll follow up.

TeddySanFran @ 176

Keith asks why Hill waited until after Barack voted.

She ain’t gonna answer that. Wonder if he’ll follow up.

No followup.

Fern @ 153

Thank you – I agree with your main point here. Though I question that what we have between Canada and the US is a true economic partnership. That’s not how it looks from my side of the border.

For me, the same logic should apply to Canada as well… the US should stop acting like a trade bully with Canada because of lobbyists (like Abramofo) who want to protect some insignificant corner of some US resource or ag industry. The US, Canada and Mexico are one economy, and the politicians need to start behaving like it is what it is. Increasing and maturing linkages, trade and otherwise, between these three counries, should be, in my opinion, the centerpiece of the foreign policies of all three countries. We’re each others’ back yard, and the US has to find ways to make the other two countries feel more comfortable with its vast size and otherwise overcome its habit of being somewhat obnoxious toward its neighbors.

Hugh @ 172

Iraq: if al Qaeda took over Iraq, then what? A thoroughly stupid question.

Richardson: withdraw, protect US, prosecute war on terror

Obama: no good options, phased redeployment, troops in the region

Biden: soft partition

Hillary: redeploying carefully, responsibly; pressure on Iraqi government; diplomacy

Dodd: withdraw over 7 months; no arms to Saudis if no support for us in Iraq

Edwards: 50,000 out now; try for reconciliation; regional diplomacy; if things go south, must plan for

Kucinich: get out of Iraq now; international peace keeping force

International peace keeping force??? He’s nuts. 1. Who’s gonna sign up for that? 2. There has to be a peace before you can keep a peace. 3. What’s a small peacekeeping force going to be able to do that the largest military in the world hasn’t been able to do.

If this I Kucinich’s wisdom on Iraq it’s a good thing he isn’t a contender.

BigMitch @ 110

Steve-AR @ 105

Absolutely!! Any Dem is better than any Republican. If we don’t take back the machinery of govt in ‘08, we can kiss our asses good by. The fascists have been working for decades to get to this point; if we don’t have the same resolve, we deserve to loose. (Am I correct that the FISA “thing” has brought “concern trolls” to FDL? I think the posts by “new” screen names about how they aren’t giving another dime to the party, blah..blah.; one guy even called it the “Democrat Party”..oh well, I guess it’s a sign of FDL success.)

Steve — You have a conspiratorial mind. It’s a good thing.

Any democrat is better than any republican: think supreme court justices and you will see why this is so absolutely true.

If this situation was a simple conspiracy, it would be much easier to deal with. The origins and the money go back to the FDR/New Deal haters of the ’30’s. Over the past couple of decades, either by design or by the “law” of natural attraction of “scum”, the 28%ers got involved. The only common thread seems to be destruction of the Constitution. If we no longer have an effective Constitution, I think it will be the Theocrats who will end up on top, especially if the economy goes into the tank and there is another depression. (How’s that for tin-foil thinking)

jayt @ 165

Yet he’s (Kucinich) not taken nearly as seriously. Why?

‘Cause he’s short and funny-looking?

‘for me, it’s because he’s an economic isolationist, who’s just wrong.

Did Dodd vote for the Iraqi war?

Musharif sharply critical of Obama today.

solai @ 182

Did Dodd vote for the Iraqi war?

Yup

Barack Obama doesn’t want to debate. He wants to make speeches about the AUMF.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 108

We do not like NAFTA, CAFTA, the DLC, and the ‘third way’.

Respectfully: So why…would you vote for Hillary? Why would you vote for the Dem in 2008, and then look out?

Ghoulianai will once again say – “You’ll notice that NOT ONE of the Democratic candidates said the words “Islamo-terrorism”?

And I’ll pre-answer him: Yes, isn’t it a lovely thing?

edit: oops, HRC just came very close.

solai @ 174

I think that the hypothetical Iraq question is going to backfire on the dems. I can hear Rove’s machine starting to crank up.

Handwringing. What’s your alternative?

Clinton is losing me.

Hill: If you’re running for President, you shouldn’t always say everything you think.

Blub @ 178

Fern @ 153

Thank you – I agree with your main point here. Though I question that what we have between Canada and the US is a true economic partnership. That’s not how it looks from my side of the border.

For me, the same logic should apply to Canada as well… the US should stop acting like a trade bully with Canada because of lobbyists (like Abramofo) who want to protect some insignificant corner of some US resource or ag industry. The US, Canada and Mexico are one economy, and the politicians need to start behaving like it is what it is. Increasing and maturing linkages, trade and otherwise, between these three counries, should be, in my opinion, the centerpiece of the foreign policies of all three countries. We’re each others’ back yard, and the US has to find ways to make the other two countries feel more comfortable with its vast size and otherwise overcome its habit of being somewhat obnoxious toward its neighbors.

Would be nice. Me, I’m scared about what is going to happen with Arctic oil and gas deposits – we’re going to be caught between the US and Russia fighting over our oil.

TeddySanFran @ 189

Hill: If you’re running for President, you shouldn’t always say everything you think.

She’s still doing better than Obama.

Jonathan @ 185

Oklahoma kiddo @ 108

We do not like NAFTA, CAFTA, the DLC, and the ‘third way’.

Respectfully: So why…would you vote for Hillary? Why would you vote for the Dem in 2008, and then look out?

If the choice is between Clinton and whatever Republican, then I will vote for Senator Clinton.

It’s all Bush’s fault, no matter how anybody turns it around.

Nevermind Pakistan, go get Bush – he’s got nukes too.

Sigh, no cleavage. Get Rudy G.

Not clear on why Hillary got boo’ed. I think she said the right thing. I tell my children the same: every thought that comes into their head does not deserve a place in their mouth.

TeddySanFran @ 189

Hill: If you’re running for President, you shouldn’t always say everything you think.

Correct.

behindthefall @ 145

OT, but … R.I.P., NYT

It’s a loss of our cultural history and what was a great institution when it was a “paper of record.”

But I started wishing for the demise of the NYT when Judy’s and Cheney’s machinations were discovered. And after they ‘held’ the surveillance story for a year. And now we know that they held it on the basis of WH bullying and lying.

There have to be consequences and this is good consequences.

Try reading McClatchy instead.

Blub @ 139

PB @ 124

NAFTA would only work if you can ALSO legally work anywhere within the block. Otherwise the companies just outsource to the spot with the cheapest labor, who are held there through border and immigrant policies…

…agree that it needs to be supplemented with broad development support for Mexico and real productivity growth there.. but outsourcing is going to happen. Would you rather that good jobs go to the cheaplaborstan of the moment or would you rather see Mexico increase in prosperity and join with the US and Canada in true economic partnership? I’m sorry, but half my city is in Mexico. Mexican prosperity IS my prosperity.

Here’s my point: the reason outsourcing works at all is because of a pay differential between two regions. The reason this differential can be maintained is because of the existence of borders and immigration laws which prevent people from moving to where they can earn more money. Now, the reason people can’t demand a better deal is because they can’t make the threat of just leaving where they are for somewhere else.

Now, I hold out no real hope that we’ll eliminate the entire notion of “illegal” immigration any time soon, but that’s what props up the entire problem caused by free trade regions and outsourcing.

Of course I want prosperity for all (and what I propose would fall hardest on the most prosperous in the immediate and short run as people shift to the better paying regions, until it evens out) but NAFTA, immigration control, and the like all work quite against that ideal.

I wish someone would drag Whitehouse to one of these debates so that we could see what else he has.

Draft Whitehouse? Edwards/Whitehouse?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 196

TeddySanFran @ 189

Hill: If you’re running for President, you shouldn’t always say everything you think.

Correct.

so why did she get jeered?

As a debate moderator, KO ROCKS!

A star is born!

But we already knew that ; )

Fern @ 190

Would be nice. Me, I’m scared about what is going to happen with Arctic oil and gas deposits – we’re going to be caught between the US and Russia fighting over our oil.

yeah.. been sort of following that. Russia just claimed Santa Claus’ Village, literally. I don’t know how the US could conceivably assert a claim, though? Maybe to the straits directly north of Alaska, but that’s it. There’s no contiguous territory or any other historical basis. Canada may have a debate with Denmark and Russia, but it really shouldn’t with the US. If we do assert a claim, we’re just being good ole’ fashioned military conquerors and we might as well annoint shrub Caesar.

behindthefall @ 199

I wish someone would drag Whitehouse to one of these debates so that we could see what else he has.

Draft Whitehouse? Edwards/Whitehouse?

I love Whitehouse but I want him to restore the honor in the Department of Justice, so it’s Whitehouse for AG for me.

I don’t get MSNBC on the tube and the online feed just went dead.. Anyone else having similar problems?

BigMitch @ 183

Musharif sharply critical of Obama today.

I think Pakistan is where Iran was ~1976,1977. Except Pakistan has nukes and Bush gave them the capacity to make a lot more of them.

Blub @ 202

Fern @ 190

Would be nice. Me, I’m scared about what is going to happen with Arctic oil and gas deposits – we’re going to be caught between the US and Russia fighting over our oil.

yeah.. been sort of following that. Russia just claimed Santa Claus’ Village, literally. I don’t know how the US could conceivably assert a claim, though? Maybe to the straits directly north of Alaska, but that’s it. There’s no contiguous territory or any other historical basis. Canada may have a debate with Denmark and Russia, but it really shouldn’t with the US. If we do assert a claim, we’re just being good ole’ fashioned military conquerors and we might as well annoint shrub Caesar.

Americans have also been increasing their presence in Arctic waters. And they’ve been pretty flexible in their interpretation of international law of late. They have no legal claim to Iraqi oil either.

randiego @ 187

solai @ 174

I think that the hypothetical Iraq question is going to backfire on the dems. I can hear Rove’s machine starting to crank up.

Handwringing. What’s your alternative?

You say ‘I won’t answer hypotheticals but I will say this…..if i were CIC, I would actually listen to the military, and the diplomats and our allies to achieve the best possible scenario when we leave Iraq.

Obama is on his home turf, and not doing very well. This debate is of transcendent importance to Edwards, and he hasn’t gotten to second base. I think Hillary has the right answers but between her history with Nafta, and the jeering, she isn’t winning. Dodd is doing great! Kucinich is still short, even though he gives the best answers and gets the best applause.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 196

TeddySanFran @ 189

Hill: If you’re running for President, you shouldn’t always say everything you think.

Correct.

That is, I should say, a bit of a disingenuous statement, Senator.

Cozumel @ 201

As a debate moderator, KO ROCKS!

A star is born!

But we already knew that ; )

DING!

jayt @ 165

Yet he’s (Kucinich) not taken nearly as seriously. Why?

‘Cause he’s short and funny-looking?

So is that a good enough reason?

I think Hillary blew it by saying anyone running for president shouldn’t always be candid.

BigMitch @ 208

Obama is on his home turf, and not doing very well. This debate is of transcendent importance to Edwards, and he hasn’t gotten to second base. I think Hillary has the right answers but between her history with Nafta, and the jeering, she isn’t winning. Dodd is doing great! Kucinich is still short, even though he gives the best answers and gets the best applause.

I think Dodd is the one who’s been seriously under-appreciated.

Before you can win in ‘08, make sure the election actually happens. And i don’t mean stuff like fair, open, correct or such technicalities.

Hilary was too candid in saying anyone running for president shouldn’t always be candid.

BigMitch @ 195

Not clear on why Hillary got boo’ed. I think she said the right thing. I tell my children the same: every thought that comes into their head does not deserve a place in their mouth.

Well, she voted to go into Iraq, a sovereign nation (thinking Hussein had WMDs), she didn’t worry about destabilizing Iraq at the time, and she voted for continuing the funding over the years…It is hypocritical of her to then turn on Obama and starts lecturing him in a matronizing way, when he’s saying go in and get Bin Ladin where he is being harbored, because he attacked the US. What is missing from Obama’s comments are a follow-up about controlling or removing nukes sold to Pakistan by the U.S. The funny thing is, no one mentions that most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia with a couple from Yemen and Egypt. Smoke and mirrors.

ironranger @ 215

Hilary was too candid in saying anyone running for president shouldn’t always be candid.

!

PB @ 198

NAFTA, immigration control, and the like all work quite against that ideal.

I don’t know. I agree with you in concept, but I also think that Mexico can do a lot with economic growth in general, and productivity growth in particular. Growth would decrease the immigration pressures. My point on NAFTA is that the US and Canada and Mexico are different… we have a special responsibility to bind the three countries together in recognition of the fact that, geographically and culturally, our futures are really as one big whole. We really don’t have much choice about it, unless we plan on building Hadrian’s Wall and shooting from it. Cutting my city in half and shooting people trying to move through its neighborhoods is not an acceptable solution, and trade protectionism is just one more barrier. Heck, I’d vote for my state’s secession before I’d tolerate that… and I’m only being a little snarkish there.

Oh, man, now all the people who’ve lost their jobs are asking questions. I find this heartbreaking.

ironranger @ 215

Hilary was too candid in saying anyone running for president shouldn’t always be candid.

HA! Who would have predicted: A Clinton’s ship gets sunk because the candidate was too candid.

Ironic, n’est pas?

Steve-AR @ 205

BigMitch @ 183

Musharif sharply critical of Obama today.

I think Pakistan is where Iran was ~1976,1977. Except Pakistan has nukes and Bush gave them the capacity to make a lot more of them.

Bush didn’t give them more capacity. They are doing that on their own. I think that you are thinking of our nuclear deal with India. Also AQ Khan is still out there and the Pakistanis have apparently eased up his house arrest, at least that was the report.

Fern @ 153

Blub @ 139

…agree that it needs to be supplemented with broad development support for Mexico and real productivity growth there.. but outsourcing is going to happen. Would you rather that good jobs go to the cheaplaborstan of the moment or would you rather see Mexico increase in prosperity and join with the US and Canada in true economic partnership? I’m sorry, but half my city is in Mexico. Mexican prosperity IS my prosperity.

Thank you – I agree with your main point here. Though I question that what we have between Canada and the US is a true economic partnership. That’s not how it looks from my side of the border.

The US lumber lobby and the WH have been brutal with Canada on the softwood lumber matter for years, absolutely refusing to follow NAFTA. Canada won every international adjudication on it and the US refused to budge. Finally they made all the Canadian lumber companies agree not to sue anymore to get peace in the industry and sign a deal and now the US is already starting new action against the Canadian industry. It’s disgusting.

And there were Canadian industry funds/fees/reparations that ended up in the WH political coffers last year. I kid you not. I don’t have any links but anyone who’s interested could try googling on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) and “As It Happens.” If you really want to look at this and can’t find anything catch me when I show up in a thread and I’ll try and find the stuff for you.

I’m an American resident of Canada.

Lahoma advises me that thus far she has taken a measure of the man and thinks Kucinich stands taller than the rest.

Fern @ 213

BigMitch @ 208

Obama is on his home turf, and not doing very well. This debate is of transcendent importance to Edwards, and he hasn’t gotten to second base. I think Hillary has the right answers but between her history with Nafta, and the jeering, she isn’t winning. Dodd is doing great! Kucinich is still short, even though he gives the best answers and gets the best applause.

I think Dodd is the one who’s been seriously under-appreciated.

You mean it’s not a two-person race between Hillary and Barack?

Bob Schacht @ 143

Has this link been mentioned yet?

At YearlyKos, Netroots Come of Age
The Nation – By Ari Melber – Aug 6, 2007 (News Analysis) – Full Story
Clinton strained to mold her meeting back into a controlled event. She was the only candidate to use her staff as a buffer, tapping her Internet director, Peter Daou, to pick questions and bringing three other senior aides onstage, though none of them spoke. She filibustered most of the time, taking more than eleven minutes to answer the first question alone–a simple query about fixing the unpopular No Child Left Behind Act. That softball came from an official with the National Education Association, who either didn’t know or didn’t care that this scarce time was carved out for bloggers and activists without insider access, not for interest-group sponsors. More »

You can review this story.

Bob in HI

I know its tacky to respond to my own comment, but here’s the conclusion of the Nation article:

Amid all this hoopla and political intrigue, it is easy to lose sight of the convention’s DNA. A self-organized band of activists and volunteers built one of the most important gatherings in modern politics from scratch in just two years–an achievement most organizations, think tanks and even well-funded corporate PACs could not match. That success is sparking understandable growing pains and fundamental questions about how to maintain the gathering’s egalitarian, open and participatory ethic. The Democratic establishment knows it must now listen to its netrooots base. The trick is ensuring that the full range of netroots activists are empowered to speak up for themselves.

Actually, I think the Netroots did exactly what Howard Dean envisioned several years ago, when he was drafting a Democratic version of Newt Gingrich’s old plan for a Republican takeover.

Have we really become “of age”? Do we know what to do with that? I hope so!

Bob in HI

Elliott @ 203

behindthefall @ 199

I wish someone would drag Whitehouse to one of these debates so that we could see what else he has.

Draft Whitehouse? Edwards/Whitehouse?

I love Whitehouse but I want him to restore the honor in the Department of Justice, so it’s Whitehouse for AG for me.

My belief is that s**t runs downhill, so you put your most principled person in the highest spot and let the influence percolate. Also, I like the idea of having someone highly intellgent in the Oval Office. Imagine the level of competence that would demand of the briefers!

Dodd and Richardson continue to impress me …
Obama is playing warmonger these days, HRC is just so wrong and Edwards plan sounded mighty unlike getting out to me.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 223

Lahoma advises me that thus far she has taken a measure of the man and thinks Kucinich stands taller than the rest.

That may be because we’ve lost trust in the rest.

behindthefall @ 145

OT, but … R.I.P., NYT

The NYT recently raised its weekday cost from $1 to $1.25. This weekend it cropped its format from 8-column to 6-column. Keeping the height and the number of pages the same, each word would cost 67% more.

To keep the same number of words in the newspaper, and thus the same level of reportage, 1/4 more pages would have to appear. However, the number of pages so far is actually less than or equal to the number of pages before the change: the front section today has 20 pages, the Metro has a mere 6.

Think what you will of the MSM, if we are to have the tools necessary to turn around this — OK, I’ll use the word — Bush dictatorship, the NYT would have been a powerful lever. I think we have just seen the lever fracture and crumble; the NYT is on its way to becoming either a local rag or a tabloid.

First they lost Russell Baker, then they went for color that worked less than half the time, then the typeface got sloppy, then the intellectual honesty went, and now there is not even space for content.

R.I.P., NYT.

Few will shed a tear for what has become a disgrace in American journalism. The thought of Friedman, Gordon and Brooks on the unemployment line is tantalizing but sure they will latch on to another intellectually dishonest rag.

Okay, how many are crying?

Fern @ 206

They have no legal claim to Iraqi oil either.

ah.. but we’re fighting AQ and we need those oil revenues to help pay for that fight! :)

who are we going to fight in Canada? Nunavut secessionists? French speakers? Vancouver real estate developers?

Ann in AZ @ 211

jayt @ 165

Yet he’s (Kucinich) not taken nearly as seriously. Why?

‘Cause he’s short and funny-looking?

So is that a good enough reason?

I didn’t say that – in fact, I think he’s winning this debate.

Fact remains, however, that looks are important, especially in a presidential candidate.

BigMitch @ 195

Not clear on why Hillary got boo’ed. I think she said the right thing. I tell my children the same: every thought that comes into their head does not deserve a place in their mouth.

Hillary is not supposed to be a child. I want our candidates to tell the truth. George Bush surely wasn’t candid both times he ran.

Big Mitch@220: I am quite fond of ironic moments…been a big help in surviving the last 6 years.

upstairs

One right down the middle for Edwards

Oklahoma kiddo @ 212

I think Hillary blew it by saying anyone running for president shouldn’t always be candid.

Hillary represents old politics. She is for taking money from lobbyists, not being candid, not apologizing for her mistakes, keeping nukes on the table, etc. She remains distrustful of the blogosphere.

Hillary may be the front runner and she may be better than any of the Republicans but she is no progressive.

Hugh @ 221

Steve-AR @ 205

I think Pakistan is where Iran was ~1976,1977. Except Pakistan has nukes and Bush gave them the capacity to make a lot more of them.

Bush didn’t give them more capacity. They are doing that on their own. I think that you are thinking of our nuclear deal with India. Also AQ Khan is still out there and the Pakistanis have apparently eased up his house arrest, at least that was the report.

I don’t have the reference available, but there was story that “Bush” gave Pakistan the “capacity” to increase bomb production. OBTW he didn’t tell Congress.

Jane upstairs ….

ironranger @ 215

Hilary was too candid in saying anyone running for president shouldn’t always be candid.

So Hillary is not being candid…Then the lobbyists do buy influence?

Many argue that the lack of candor on the part of candidates and incumbents is the root of the problem.

Hugh @ 221

Steve-AR @ 205

I think Pakistan is where Iran was ~1976,1977. Except Pakistan has nukes and Bush gave them the capacity to make a lot more of them.

Bush didn’t give them more capacity. They are doing that on their own. I think that you are thinking of our nuclear deal with India. Also AQ Khan is still out there and the Pakistanis have apparently eased up his house arrest, at least that was the report.

Besides nukes, Pakistan also has the ISI, the most powerful and subtle intelligence force in the Middle East and Central Asia. Who controls the ISI? No one. Certainly not Musharraf. He tried to take them on several years ago, and got his pants handed back to him, cleaned and pressed. He has probably made a secret deal with them, defining what each of them are permitted to do, and what they are not permitted to do.

Bob in HI

Obama talks stupid on immigration, ugh. Using GOP framing.

Blub @ 202

Fern @ 190

Would be nice. Me, I’m scared about what is going to happen with Arctic oil and gas deposits – we’re going to be caught between the US and Russia fighting over our oil.

yeah.. been sort of following that. Russia just claimed Santa Claus’ Village, literally. I don’t know how the US could conceivably assert a claim, though? Maybe to the straits directly north of Alaska, but that’s it. There’s no contiguous territory or any other historical basis. Canada may have a debate with Denmark and Russia, but it really shouldn’t with the US. If we do assert a claim, we’re just being good ole’ fashioned military conquerors and we might as well annoint shrub Caesar.

The worry in Canada is that the US will exert increasing power over our gas, oil, and water resources, regardless of Canadian sovereignty. There are many mechanisms, especially because of NAFTA.

Hugh @ 237

Oklahoma kiddo @ 212

I think Hillary blew it by saying anyone running for president shouldn’t always be candid.

Hillary represents old politics. She is for taking money from lobbyists, not being candid, not apologizing for her mistakes, keeping nukes on the table, etc. She remains distrustful of the blogosphere.

Hillary may be the front runner and she may be better than any of the Republicans but she is no progressive.

Yes. This Senator is not a progressive.

Hillary is the only one pinning the occupation and failed policies of Iraq on Bush and the republicans over and over. She looks more powerful though with bigger hair. She’s looking a little flat and worn out today. She also empahasizes the importance of unity in the party by pointing out that what other candidates have to say is important and there is a common thread of philosophical agreement among them. They did pretty much collectively slap down Obama on Afganistan.

Kucinich does the job on ’single payer’.

Agree with Clinton on EveryChildScr*wed

Steve-AR @ 238

Hugh @ 221

Bush didn’t give them more capacity. They are doing that on their own. I think that you are thinking of our nuclear deal with India. Also AQ Khan is still out there and the Pakistanis have apparently eased up his house arrest, at least that was the report.

I don’t have the reference available, but there was story that “Bush” gave Pakistan the “capacity” to increase bomb production. OBTW he didn’t tell Congress.

I found one story..Bush gave Pakistan a “pass” on building a new reactor, I presume because they are “good on terror”. Didn’t inform Congress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/…..00995.html

Steve-AR #249

The Pakistanis were going to do that anyway. It doesn’t depend upon us at all. Bush could kick up a fuss but he needs the Pakistanis too much for GWOT. The Pakistanis are, in fact, building this facility to counter the freed up capacity that the US-India deal will create.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 167

Kucinich really is progressive on Iraq.

He is also the only one who offers sensible options for healthcare.

That pretty well does it for allies then. Except maybe for Uzbekistan.

Fern @ 179

International peace keeping force??? He’s nuts. 1. Who’s gonna sign up for that? 2. There has to be a peace before you can keep a peace. 3. What’s a small peacekeeping force going to be able to do that the largest military in the world hasn’t been able to do.

If this I Kucinich’s wisdom on Iraq it’s a good thing he isn’t a contender.

Its just a scramble to make the world pick up the mess. Funny that – the world opinion counted for nowt when it disagreed to this preemptive warcrime back in 2002-03.

On the issue of British withdrawal from Basra – they are leaving all their Iraqi support staff to be slaughtered. Contrast this with what the Danes did. They about 400 troops in all in Iraq but they evacuated all their Iraqi staff and their families – 200 people in total. While the Brits are calling it a day before it becomes impossible for them to do so safely, it really is so very unethical to throw these people to the wolves.

Blub @ 181

jayt @ 165

Yet he’s (Kucinich) not taken nearly as seriously. Why?

‘Cause he’s short and funny-looking?

‘for me, it’s because he’s an economic isolationist, who’s just wrong.

Opposing NAFTA or CAFTA is not economic islationism. Both these FTAs work to favour the US arms twisting others to open up their economies for US’ benefit. The way it works across in Canada is this: a lot of primary products are exported to the US (much not paid for promptly) to be value added and the finished product reimported back into Canada which does not promote economic development in Canada itself. The consequences have proved to be particularly dire for the Atlantic provinces of Canada which are the poorer eastern areas in the country. For FTAs to work, you must have free movement of labour too as happens across the EU but the USA isn’t really interested in much else besides hegemonic control, politically and economically.

Steve-AR @ 205

BigMitch @ 183

Musharif sharply critical of Obama today.

I think Pakistan is where Iran was ~1976,1977. Except Pakistan has nukes and Bush gave them the capacity to make a lot more of them.

You may have the wrong country here – there is no nuclear deal signed with Pakistan. AQ Khan remains free and a lot of military aid in conventional weapons, including missiles, still flows into Pakistan which keeps Musharraff in power.

Steve-AR @ 238

Bush overtly and explicitly denied Pakistan any help in further developing their nuclear capacity. The deal with India refers to civilian nuclear capacity in return for UN inspections of civilian sites. No, the USA did not sell either Pakistan or India nuclear technology. AQ Khan stole Pakistan’s knowhow from Europe and he is free as far as I can make out. India did not acquire it from the Russians either – it was genuinely homegrown – technological knowhow is not limited to white peoples! Also, the USA had very little choice because India was pursuing using thorium in preference to uranium because the country has plenty of it. Also, it cannot be reprocessed for military nukes.

Teddy; when your “Operation Iraq Freedom” is unspinnably imploding around your ears, you go on the scapegoat-hunt with the “scapegoats” you have; not the ones you wish you had.

The Holy Writ-Shreik of:

“BILL CLINTON’S DICK!!!”

won’t cut it for this one.

The Brits seem to be showing a fair degree of reluctance to kill their troops and Iraqis, in order to validate bloodyhanded bullshit, and to try to keep the bush administration from having to eat their murderous loon-crusade, instead of taking the responsibility for it.

AW.Com had a piece on a few weeks ago, in which the writer talked about CentCom’s being very pissed that the Brits wouldn’t go out every day to mix it up with the militias down there, and instead, were pulling back “behind the wire” at the Basra Airport.

With them scheduled to reduce their level by another 500 (at least) before the end of the year it’s not going to get any better.

I’m not sure what effect they have on keeping the Kuwait-to-Baghdad highway open, which is the lifeline for the occupation of Iraq, but when they leave, the Shiites in the south will be a lot more rambunctious about expressing their new-found “freedom”, and if they decide to go after that lifeline, it’s going to take a substantial number of americans to protect it.

Plus, the symbolism of the Brits leaving will initially be worse than the real reduction in troops there.
I don’t see how Gordon Brown can keep them there long enough to allow bush and his administration to hang on and ooze out of office after the elections.

One more headache-in-waiting for goatboy.

“Hillary is the only one pinning the occupation and failed policies of Iraq on Bush and the republicans over and over…”

Marshhen, this is internet comedy, right?

She can’t even admit straight-up, that she made a mistake when she voted to authorize the invasion. Which is why she can’t say the invasion ITSELF was a mistake.

Do you think that she can get elected 15 months from now, if she won’t pronounce what’s going on in Iraq a mistake?

A few months before the mid-terms, When Bush was initially floating an escalation trial balloon, she spoke in favor of it.

As I’ve been saying, she only discovered her REAL inner antiwar self, when she took a look at the polls just before the mid-terms.

She also merrily supported Joe Lieberman when he lost in the Connecticut primary to Ned Lamont. I know, she finally offered tepid support for Lamont, in the general election, when he lost, but she had zippo choice in that; staying with Jolting Joe would have been political suicide.

BTW, Do we need to remind you that Lieberman makes Trent Lott look like Jane Fonda?

Obama has spoken out consistently against the war.

John Edwards had already unequivocally eaten HIS authorization vote, 3 times, when I saw him in Georgetown, S.C. a couple of weeks ago. He did it again, saying: “I was wrong. Just wrong”

No farting; no tapdancing. Just “wrong”.

If you go see Hillary speak, ask her if her vote was a mistake, and then ask her if the invasion was a mistake…

And after she answers, ask YOURSELF, why you’re supporting her.

Oops! We can bet money that that statement about the Brits being “defeated” will show up in the London newspapers tomorrow. :o)

GSD @ 12

America is only getting uglier and uglier by the day.

-GSD

You’ve got that right! Disgusting behavior towards one of your allies.

sona @ 254

Blub @ 181

‘for me, it’s because he’s an economic isolationist, who’s just wrong.

Opposing NAFTA or CAFTA is not economic islationism. Both these FTAs work to favour the US arms twisting others to open up their economies for US’ benefit. The way it works across in Canada is this: a lot of primary products are exported to the US (much not paid for promptly) to be value added and the finished product reimported back into Canada which does not promote economic development in Canada itself. The consequences have proved to be particularly dire for the Atlantic provinces of Canada which are the poorer eastern areas in the country. For FTAs to work, you must have free movement of labour too as happens across the EU but the USA isn’t really interested in much else besides hegemonic control, politically and economically.

Yep… NAFTA and CAFTA are designed to work in favor of the U.S. of A. Otherwise, they won’t play.

Bob Schacht @ 28

Unfortunately, the British experience in the South is probably a harbinger of what awaits us when we finally decide to withdraw. It ain’t gonna be pretty, but due to BushCo incompetence, it really can’t be avoided.

Bush’s strategy isn’t really to win; on some level, even he understands that. What he doesn’t want is to lose badly, especially not on his watch. Its going to come down to Vietnam all over again.

So he & Cheney are planning right now on how to blame the final conflagration on the Democrats. This is what the Blue Dogs fear the most.

Bob in HI

Sounds like something my buddy Tanbark has been saying for a few years . . . I’m finally coming on board with it . . . we HAVE to make sure the PetroTurds eat this debacle. Every last drop and byte of if.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 108

We do not like NAFTA, CAFTA, the DLC, and the ‘third way’.

“We” in this house concur.
*G*

And honey is Canadian, via Nova Scotia.

I hear they have GREAT seafood, and pubs with lots of my kind of music. Wonder if she can get me in . . ;-)

Let’s all watch as Bush/Cheney and their rabid minions attempt to pin this catastrophe on the very people that came to their aid.

This planted comment is meant to lay the foundation for the Bush-Cheney noise machine to explain to this country and its true believers why Great Britain’s bugout of Iraq under Brown, starting in October is of little importance. “They lost the stomach for the fight and we will and can do a better job” sort of propaganda. I am still waiting for one of the front running Democratic candidates to say the decades of corporate colonialism which got us into this mess will cease the day they take office.