Jane!

Jane:

Did you get the Pelosi schedule message I left you in an earlier thread?

July 2003: 48
July 2004: 54
July 2005: 54
July 2006: 43
July 2007: 80

It really says a lot….

I would think coming home in a box would be dead enough.

hello

isn’t it time to treat the msm as a hostile witness?

Okay, before anyone says it let me say right now, it was Benjamin Disraeli, and not Mark Twain.

Biodun @ 2

Jane:

Did you get the Pelosi schedule message I left you in an earlier thread?

I did, thank you very much.

BigMitch @ 6

Okay, before anyone says it let me say right now, it was Benjamin Disraeli, and not Mark Twain.

I was just thinking about that quote…

Plus ca change,plus c’est la meme chose.

anne, I picked up your vibe.

When 80 is considered “the lowest” death toll in 2007, that is really sad. The death toll for US troops in Iraq should be zero, zed, zilch.

I know it is early to go off topic, but I am pleased to see that lefty talk radio is all over the FISA capitulation.

This issue, repleat with Friday afternoon take out the trash day history, had the potential for passing under the radar. Especially with infrastructure grabbing headlines.

However, as it turns out, the bridge collapse moved the news cycle back one business day. Friday congressional cave-in is Monday’s news.

Jane or whomsoever is meeting Pelosi, please add this to your list of questions:

Did Pelosi/Reid seek Bruce Fein’s input before bringing the FISA bill to a vote in Congress ? Or the input of any other Constitutional Scholars, for that matter?

I visited the Vietnam War Memorial in Chicago the other day. It was a pretty amazing place. Etched in the stones on the floor are all the important events during the whole Vietnam war, like “Pentagon Papers Released”, etc. This beautiful Chicago park display left me very very sad.

The lowest monthly total this year, nearly twice as many as this time last year.

This is progress?

News comes first.
Understanding comes later.
Evidently “Administration talking points” are considered news.
{/snark}

Bob in HI

michael @ 6

isn’t it time to treat the msm as a hostile witness?

[Mod Note; Comment edited by Mod. Please, no references to violence, snark or otherwise, directed towards anyone. Thank you.]

ccmask @ 15

I visited the Vietnam War Memorial in Chicago the other day. It was a pretty amazing place. Etched in the stones on the floor are all the important events during the whole Vietnam war, like “Pentagon Papers Released”, etc. This beautiful Chicago park display left me very very sad.

On the way in from the airport, did you happen to notice this site? http://cbs2chicago.com/local/l…..85813.html

From Raw Story:

“US troop levels in Iraq have hit their highest point of the more than four year old war, with the numbers swelling to nearly 162,000 because of overlapping unit rotations, a Pentagon spokesman said Tuesday.

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the number surpassed the previous high water mark in the war, about 161,000 troops in January 2005 after national elections.”

This is progress?

Why am I asking that question? Why aren’t my Reps and Senators asking it?

As a matter of fact, I think I’m going to call them up and demand that they start asking that question, too.

Excellent article today in The Guardian (UK) by Patrick Cockburn on “The Surge”. Amazing how much more accurate the stories are when the reporters aren’t “embedded”.

Stop acting like rubes.

I don’t think it’s an act.

80 was still the lowest US death toll so far in 2007 (previous lows were 81 & 83). The 8 British killed were one of their worst months, & 1 Pole (illness) made it a fairly bad month for the coalition.

One reason for slightly reduced casualties is making deals with Sunni insurgents. This is not exactly a great long term strategy. If it was getting the Sunnis deeper into political participation, maybe, but seeing as they’ve dropped out the the government completely, you have to figure that the Sunnis have their own plans for using what they get out of the deals.

The bigger lie is still the hiding of the cost to Iraqis. Over a hundred killed daily, 3 million refugees, no power, no jobs, no water, no food – the unwillingness to report on what we’ve really done to that country is orders of magnitude worse than a one week premature casualty report. In the last poll of Americans asked how many Iraqis had been killed, the median answer was 10,000. Off by a factor of 70.

ccmask @ 15

I visited the Vietnam War Memorial in Chicago the other day. It was a pretty amazing place. Etched in the stones on the floor are all the important events during the whole Vietnam war, like “Pentagon Papers Released”, etc. This beautiful Chicago park display left me very very sad.

Since the Gettysburg Address the three words “died in vain” has been an especially evocative expression. Woe unto any politician would say that in public about the troops who suffered needless deaths in Iraq. (Obama has a nice finesse: “I wouldn’t want to use words that add to the pain of their families.”)

Still, when it comes to Viet Nam it is hard to answer Phil Ochs’ memorable question: “Look at all we’ve won with the saber and the gun, and tell me was it worth it all.”

We did learn one thing in Viet Nam. We learned that a dedicated corps of anti-war activists can garner enough public support to turn the tide of history.

When we work to end the war in Iraq, we are honoring the memory of 50,000 Americans who didn’t have to die in Viet Nam.

Over at Kos someone posted about going to the Haystack Square Memorial in Chicago before leaving YearlyKos. Why do we build memorials to things we should be ashamed of? Is it to remind us when we were wrong so we won’t make the same mistake again? It doesn’t seem to be working. Some kid is still going to be the last one to die for a mistake.

Well said, Mitch.

Speaking of progress, the 5,000 Brits left in Iraq are holed up in Basra, where they are taking unprecedented amounts of fire. The city is in the hands of locals not particularly supportive of the U.S. effort to ‘pacify’ their country.

This venture is going to end up a military disaster of the first order. Up to now, it only reaches the second order.

On the other topic. I still can’t get my mind around the Reid and Pelosi’s craven surrender to Bush on FISA. Are they just holding their breath until 2008 and hoping against hope that Rove won’t pull another rabbit out of the hat? Or were they shown some information that forced them to take out an insurance policy? Some people get angry. At this point, I am only at the sick-to-my-stomach stage of grieving, you know — the one that comes right before Denial.

BigMitch @ 25

When we work to end the war in Iraq, we are honoring the memory of 50,000 Americans who didn’t have to die in Viet Nam.

Hear Hear !!!

… standing on chair and applauding …

Great post. Here is a graph.

Mack: I didn’t catch that story until now.

Also thought I would mention that my friend left the Hyatt in Chicago on Friday afternoon for a 6:55 PM flight back to Kennedy Airport in NYC. They boarded the plane at 6:30 PM. She was stuck on that plane on that runway, until 1:00 in the morning (7 hours). She left the HyAtt in a cab at 3:00 PM and arrived in her apartment in NYC at 4:30 AM.

Do not fly Jet Blue. This is criminal.

just to clarify my comment on treating the msm as a hostile witness.

i’m tired of chalking up the msm’s mistakes as ignorance, incompetence or laziness.

the cheerleading op-ed’s.
the propaganda of hanlon.
the propaganda of tillman and lynch.
judith miller
bogus terror alerts

it goes on and on. the first few times, ok, things happen, i understand. but this just keeps happening and happening.

i say start with the premise that they are purposefully lying and make them convince us otherwise.

When they tally up the soldiers deaths from combat, do they include the ones that die after being airlifted out of Iraq? Are you only considered dead if you die on the ground in Iraq?

There have been 80 or more Americans in Iraq killed every month since December 2006. Seventy or more Americans have been killed every month since September 2006. Twenty Americans have already been killed this month.

Jane, thank you for this thread. A nonviolent approach to settling international disputes and conflicts is a life long interest of mine. AFSC as well as other independent NGOs have done a stellar job in seeking out and recording facts in a war zone. They put their body out on the front line as much as the military.

Eyes Wide Open began years ago and even before it was as vast as it is now it was a powerful experience to walk among the boots of soldiers and shoes of civilians – women, children, men shoes. It was impossible to not feel the pain and suffering, such needless suffering. Loss that will affect these people for generations.

When I hear how the Iraqi people are grateful to be rid of Saddam even at such a terrible price, I cannot conceive of such a belief. If the people of Iraq wanted to get rid of Saddam so badly, they would have done so. For years their biggest problem was dealing with Bush and Reagan’s support of Saddam much like the US support of Suharto in Indonesia. Like Indonesia, the Iraqis knew their country could disintegrate into warring factions, all vying for power and control.

When will we ever learn?

I often wonder at what point the war supporters (re: Vietnam or Iraq) would say, “This is a disaster and a waste, let’s get out…” In one way I’d like to finally reach that point, to finally reach agreement, to finally know where that tipping point is in their minds. Unfortunately, reaching that point comes at an equally unknown and unacceptable cost, and may always be a Friedman away…

Iraq Is About to Become a Lot Worse

The war in Iraq is about to get worse — much worse. The Democrats’ decision to let the war run its course, while they frantically wash their hands of responsibility, means that it will sputter and stagger forward until the mission collapses. This will be sudden. The security of the Green Zone, our imperial city, will be increasingly breached. Command and control will disintegrate. And we will back out of Iraq humiliated and defeated. But this will not be the end of the conflict. It will, in fact, signal a phase of the war far deadlier and more dangerous to American interests.

Iraq no longer exists as a unified country. The experiment that was Iraq, the cobbling together of disparate and antagonistic patches of the Ottoman Empire by the victorious powers in the wake of World War I, belongs to the history books. It will never come back. The Kurds have set up a de facto state in the north, the Shiites control most of the south and the center of the country is a battleground…

…The neoconservatives — and the liberal interventionists, who still serve as the neocons’ useful idiots when it comes to Iran — have learned nothing. They talk about hitting Iran and maybe even Pakistan with airstrikes. Strikes on Iran would ensure a regional conflict. Such an action has the potential of drawing Israel into war — especially if Iran retaliates for any airstrikes by hitting Israel, as I would expect Tehran to do. There are still many in the U.S. who cling to the doctrine of pre-emptive war, a doctrine that the post-World War II Nuremberg laws define as a criminal “war of aggression.”…

Click the title for the full link.
_____

Depressing read.

Odierno is a deceitful idiot. He was the first to talk up pushing the surge into next year. He also plays up the Iran angle. Nothing he says should be taken at face value.

The Pentagon has been playing games with casualty figures both American and Iraqi for some time. Remember the claims about how many Americans (never independently substantiated) were killed by EFPs “from Iran”? Or how sectarian violence was down (well only if you were looking at Baghdad and not the rest of the country, and if you were looking only at death squad activity (the Mahdi Army had gone on vacation) and not car bombings)?

Of course, the biggest lie is that progress is being made. Millions have fled the country. Thousands of Iraqis are still being killed. Baghdad is running low on water and electricity. Iraqi children are malnourished. Both Shia and Sunnis are using the current surge not to move toward a political settlement but to position themselves better in the civil war. Meanwhile Bush and his generals deny that a civil war is happening.

And I’m not sure whether to treat this as good or bad news:

Filed at 2:30 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) — After failing to meet its recruiting goal for two consecutive months, the Army is expected to announce it met its target for July.

And officials are offering a new $20,000 bonus to recruits who sign up by the end of next month.

The Army had failed to meet its recruiting goals in May and June, raising the possibility that the unpopular Iraq war and strong economy could slow enlistment at a time when the force is fighting two wars as well as trying to increase its overall size.

eCAHNomics @ 18

michael @ 6

isn’t it time to treat the msm as a hostile witness?

[Mod Note; Comment edited by Mod. Please, no references to violence, snark or otherwise, directed towards anyone. Thank you.]

Thanks. Just being sarcastic. Didn’t even think about it that way.

When they tally up the soldiers deaths from combat, do they include the ones that die after being airlifted out of Iraq?

Yes. The Iraq Coalition Casualty Count site lists people who have died in hospitals in Germany and the US, and notes that the deaths are included in their overall totals.

ccmask @ 30

Mack: I didn’t catch that story until now.

Also thought I would mention that my friend left the Hyatt in Chicago on Friday afternoon for a 6:55 PM flight back to Kennedy Airport in NYC. They boarded the plane at 6:30 PM. She was stuck on that plane on that runway, until 1:00 in the morning (7 hours). She left the HyAtt in a cab at 3:00 PM and arrived in her apartment in NYC at 4:30 AM.

Do not fly Jet Blue. This is criminal.

Good for me. I stopped flying JetBlue when they started being only 2 hours late.

croatoan @ 40

When they tally up the soldiers deaths from combat, do they include the ones that die after being airlifted out of Iraq?

Yes. The Iraq Coalition Casualty Count site lists people who have died in hospitals in Germany and the US, and notes that the deaths are included in their overall totals.

Thanks. I’ve wondered about that for some time.

Well, Dorothy, I guess it’s a good thing we aren’t in Kansas anymore.
http://www.kansas.com/news/state/story/135962.html

QuakerGirl @ 33

Jane, thank you for this thread. A nonviolent approach to settling international disputes and conflicts is a life long interest of mine. AFSC as well as other independent NGOs have done a stellar job in seeking out and recording facts in a war zone.

Kudos to AFSC, I’m a big fan and occasional monetary supporter.

My in-laws are currently in Zimbabwe with their peace-church (BIC) and my wife has other relatives and close family friends who have been active in Palestine and other areas, working for peace.

To me, these people are the real heroes. And as far as I’m concerned, the ‘real’ Christians.

And that’s REAL courage to do what they do.

ccmask @ 30

Mack: I didn’t catch that story until now.

Also thought I would mention that my friend left the Hyatt in Chicago on Friday afternoon for a 6:55 PM flight back to Kennedy Airport in NYC. They boarded the plane at 6:30 PM. She was stuck on that plane on that runway, until 1:00 in the morning (7 hours). She left the HyAtt in a cab at 3:00 PM and arrived in her apartment in NYC at 4:30 AM.

Do not fly Jet Blue. This is criminal.

As I understand it, ther reason things like this happen is that the “departs on time” statistic is made up of when the plane pushes away from the gate. If the statistic measured when landing gear departs runway, they would have backed into the gate, had the passangers wait in the airport, and then fixed whatever the problem was. Maybe it would not have saved her any time, unless she got on another flight, but it would have made 7 hours a lot less uncomfortable.

ccmask @ 15

I visited the Vietnam War Memorial in Chicago the other day. It was a pretty amazing place. Etched in the stones on the floor are all the important events during the whole Vietnam war, like “Pentagon Papers Released”, etc. This beautiful Chicago park display left me very very sad.

And here is another one right on the lake that most people don’t know about Milton Olive, Medal of Honor.

LS @ 42

croatoan @ 40

When they tally up the soldiers deaths from combat, do they include the ones that die after being airlifted out of Iraq?

Yes. The Iraq Coalition Casualty Count site lists people who have died in hospitals in Germany and the US, and notes that the deaths are included in their overall totals.

Thanks. I’ve wondered about that for some time.

What they do not do in the media is that if there are 5 killed on any given day and 15 wounded, they don’t report it if a week later 5 of the 15 die outside of Iraq or Afghanistan.

When Bush says “stay the course”, he is really referring to the number of his relatives serving in his war. The Bush family is holding steady at zero serving.

BigMitch @24

So very true. It takes being steadfast in our commitment to nonviolence in place of a violent solution that is so costly in lives for generations to come. When a war ends, the people’s suffering doesn’t. Talk with Poles who were children in WWII and their suffering is in the front of their memory. Their children feel their suffering deeply and their grandchildren remember what their grandparents went through and how it affected their mother. No, the legacy of war has a very long shelf life.

LS @ 42

croatoan @ 40

When they tally up the soldiers deaths from combat, do they include the ones that die after being airlifted out of Iraq?

Yes. The Iraq Coalition Casualty Count site lists people who have died in hospitals in Germany and the US, and notes that the deaths are included in their overall totals.

Thanks. I’ve wondered about that for some time.

But they don’t count the suicides and the people who drink themselves to death as a result of their service. If they did they would have to build another Wall for the Nam.

Oh and by the way, we can forget about docking any troop ships at Basra — when we finally leave Iraq it will be overland. Maybe the nice Saudis and Syrians will let us out. Maybe.

raven @ 46

ccmask @ 15

I visited the Vietnam War Memorial in Chicago the other day. It was a pretty amazing place. Etched in the stones on the floor are all the important events during the whole Vietnam war, like “Pentagon Papers Released”, etc. This beautiful Chicago park display left me very very sad.

And here is another one right on the lake that most people don’t know about Milton Olive, Medal of Honor.

I wish I had known! I would have definitely paid my respects. RIP

That Rivkin guy was on Washington Journal, and as I understand it, he tried to justify spying on Americans as okay, because Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote an opinion regarding checkpoint searches for alcohol as being justified and not a breach of the 4th Amendment, because it saves lives.

QuakerGirl @ 49

BigMitch @24

So very true. It takes being steadfast in our commitment to nonviolence in place of a violent solution that is so costly in lives for generations to come. When a war ends, the people’s suffering doesn’t. Talk with Poles who were children in WWII and their suffering is in the front of their memory. Their children feel their suffering deeply and their grandchildren remember what their grandparents went through and how it affected their mother. No, the legacy of war has a very long shelf life.

I’m sorry, QuakerGirl, but I am not a pacifist, unless that term is defined to mean “one who recognizes that war is hell, and is determined that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.” In my view, fighting in WWII was the right thing to do. And the case of the Polish people in WWII is a particularly complicated one.

On Idiot quotient: NYT and Judy Miller. This clearly goes well beyond simple stupidity and ignorance. And, it has continued (Michael Gordon and the O’Hanlan and Pollock op-ed piece (they didn’t known they were pro-war eagerlings???!!!). No this is about continuing to support the cause of war. And, alas it is working (American views on the war, the surge are shifting away from reality just as the Bush admin and the Neo-con pro Middle East interventionists want). Despicable – and worse.

Madness and more madness.

ccmask @ 52

raven @ 46

And here is another one right on the lake that most people don’t know about Milton Olive, Medal of Honor.

I wish I had known! I would have definitely paid my respects. RIP

I didn’t know about the other one, thanks.

SufiLizard @ 43

QuakerGirl @ 33

Jane, thank you for this thread. A nonviolent approach to settling international disputes and conflicts is a life long interest of mine. AFSC as well as other independent NGOs have done a stellar job in seeking out and recording facts in a war zone.

Kudos to AFSC, I’m a big fan and occasional monetary supporter.

My in-laws are currently in Zimbabwe with their peace-church (BIC) and my wife has other relatives and close family friends who have been active in Palestine and other areas, working for peace.

To me, these people are the real heroes. And as far as I’m concerned, the ‘real’ Christians.

And that’s REAL courage to do what they do.

Have you ever heard any of these organizations interviewed on Washington Journal or other C-SPAN programs? I haven’t but maybe I missed it. May PBS? I expect nothing from the other stations so I won’t bother to ask. I think I need some dark chocolate to get me through this day.

Thank you for letting all of us know what your family is doing. Yes, these are the REAL heroes. They are shining lights in a world of darkness.

Judy Miller belongs back in jail for her part in these military deaths. Someday we will have the full account of how many soldiers actually died in Iraq and as a result of Bush’s War. Pray that it end soon.

ccmask — did you think she deserved the jail time she got for her role in Scooter-gate?

billy @ 25

Over at Kos someone posted about going to the Haystack Square Memorial in Chicago before leaving YearlyKos. Why do we build memorials to things we should be ashamed of? Is it to remind us when we were wrong so we won’t make the same mistake again? It doesn’t seem to be working. Some kid is still going to be the last one to die for a mistake.

Haymarket, not Haystack. It was the one Chicago landmark we visited this trip.

Just because something shameful happened there doesn’t mean it’s a “memorial to things we should be ashamed of.” It’s a memorial to people who died fighting for what they believed in, a monument to their cause, and a remembrance of the appalling things that we should work to ensure never happen again.

A memorial doesn’t magically make people realize that they’re making the same mistake (would that it did.) Do you honestly think we’d be better off if we said “that was shameful, let’s do our best to forget it?”

The (newly sized) Gray Lady spins:

LONDON, Aug. 6 — In a major reversal of policy, the British government today asked the Bush administration to release five British residents being held at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

Under former Prime Minister Tony Blair the government insisted that it had no obligation to assist the men because they were not British citizens, even though all had legal residence status here.

“We saw this as an opportunity to achieve ultimately the closure of Guantánamo,” said a British official, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

The State Department appeared to welcome the British move, which American and British officials said had been discussed by British Foreign Secretary David Miliband and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice last month.

My bold. Oh yeah?

Numbers provided by our military and their spokesmen just simply cannot be trusted. They take every opportunity to cook the books. I agree that as terrible as the death toll is of our men and women in Iraq, the death toll of the people of Iraq is far more horrific. The Bush Administration has done an excellent job of shoving the nasty little details of this war under the carpet. Most Americans don’t have a clue what has been done to the people of Iraq in their name. The memories of this war will haunt us all for generations. Those of us with eyes to see.

BigMitch @ 53

QuakerGirl @ 49

BigMitch @24

So very true. It takes being steadfast in our commitment to nonviolence in place of a violent solution that is so costly in lives for generations to come. When a war ends, the people’s suffering doesn’t. Talk with Poles who were children in WWII and their suffering is in the front of their memory. Their children feel their suffering deeply and their grandchildren remember what their grandparents went through and how it affected their mother. No, the legacy of war has a very long shelf life.�

I’m sorry, QuakerGirl, but I am not a pacifist, unless that term is defined to mean “one who recognizes that war is hell, and is determined that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.” In my view, fighting in WWII was the right thing to do. And the case of the Polish people in WWII is a particularly complicated one.

No matter where the war or under what circumstances, the consequences for the people are the same. Those who suffer the most and pay the highest price are women, children and the elderly. Far fewer professional military suffer. Most of those forty/sixty million killed in WWII were civilians.

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of “pacifist”? Not that I am trying to change your mind, just friendly curiosity.

Badwater @ 48

When Bush says “stay the course”, he is really referring to the number of his relatives serving in his war. The Bush family is holding steady at zero serving.

I don’t think Bill “William the Bloody” Kristol or his ilk have ever read Sherman or Von Clausewitz.

US casualties from Afghanistan tend to be overlooked, about 400 KIA. Including Pat Tillman. But of course the civilian deaths due to the war started by Republicans is just genocide.

There is so much criminality and war profiteering that we cannot keep track. Another example of hundreds of thousands of missing weapons makes this only more dreadful.
____________________
According to a report by Amnesty International, which investigated the sales, the US government arranged for the delivery of at least 200,000 Kalashnikov machine guns from Bosnia to Iraq in 2004-05. But though the weaponry was said to be for arming the fledgling Iraqi military, there is no evidence of the guns reaching their recipient.

We will never know the true body count in New Orleans:

http://usliberals.about.com/b/a/202370.htm

ccmask @ 58

Judy Miller belongs back in jail for her part in these military deaths. Someday we will have the full account of how many soldiers actually died in Iraq and as a result of Bush’s War. Pray that it end soon.

I can understand Tokyo Rose. I can’t understand Judith Miller. She betrayed her own country, for what?

BigMitch @ 60

ccmask — did you think she deserved the jail time she got for her role in Scooter-gate?

Yes. She wasn’t protecting a source; she never wrote a story about it. She was protecting her ability to get access to such sources in the future, that is, her career prospects.

In addition, she wasn’t even doing that in the service of the public’s right to know, she was doing it in the service of the government’s ability to spread lies anonymously and without consequence, the exact opposite of the public interest. (However, bad as it is, I’m not sure that one is a judgment I’d want the legal system to be making. But the first, definitely.)

BigMitch @ 60

ccmask — did you think she deserved the jail time she got for her role in Scooter-gate?

She deserved far worse, most especially for leading this county to invade Iraq on false premises, doing the bidding of the Neo-Cons. And in this the NYT was clearly complicit. Each American, British,and Iraqi death and injury is on their shoulders as much as it is on those of Bush, Cheney and the others.

Pure paranoid internet speculation from a DFH:

Rove told Dubya that it was important to the propaganda campaign to get a reduced casualty number feature article in the NYT and link the lower casualties to the success of the surge. If you get the figures turned in a few days early, it works in your favor – fewer deaths. If you get called on it, oh well, my bad. Honest mistake. In the meantime, the entire US media will push the story for you.

The NYT is to print media what Russert’s Meet the Pumpkin is to television. Both are excellent resources for the dissemination of White House talking points and sundry Republican spin.

Hillary was right about the existence of a vast right wing conspiracy. Unfortunately, it appears that she feels if you can’t beat them join them.

860

The number of US military dead in Iraq and Afghanistan since the Democrats won Congress and promised withdrawal

QuakerGirl @ 64

BigMitch @ 53

I’m sorry, QuakerGirl, but I am not a pacifist, unless that term is defined to mean “one who recognizes that war is hell, and is determined that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.” In my view, fighting in WWII was the right thing to do. And the case of the Polish people in WWII is a particularly complicated one.

No matter where the war or under what circumstances, the consequences for the people are the same. Those who suffer the most and pay the highest price are women, children and the elderly. Far fewer professional military suffer. Most of those forty/sixty million killed in WWII were civilians.

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of “pacifist”? Not that I am trying to change your mind, just friendly curiosity.

A pacifist is one who rejects war in all circumstances. Pacifists opposed American entry into WWII before and after Pearl Harbor. In my view, they were wrong in both time frames. I respect the opinions of Pacifists, being based upon principle and a desire for peache. But I disagree in some cases.

Good thread, Jane!

And, the dirty little unasked-by-the-MSM question is:

“If you CAN achieve a substantial reduction in our casualties, Gen. Odierno, are george bush, the republican party, and Centcom, planning to make the lockdown of Baghdad permanent, so as not to have to explain a “temporary spike” when they/you have to start drawing down?”

This big “stability” indicator sounds to me like just a one-off, for the media, and for anyone else willing to look at 5 years of lying, bloody, bullshit, through the window of a “5 O’clock Follies” Pentagon press conference, once every two weeks.

In fact, with the race on to see which one implodes first; the Iraqi “government”, or the Iraqi power grid, you guys better hustle it up with the rosy press conferences. One a week might be called for.

Judith Miller went to jail as part of a career-rehabilitation project, which, of course, ultimately failed.

Hack’:
“…if you can’t beat them, join them.”

No shit. :o)

LS @ 53

That Rivkin guy was on Washington Journal, and as I understand it, he tried to justify spying on Americans as okay, because Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote an opinion regarding checkpoint searches for alcohol as being justified and not a breach of the 4th Amendment, because it saves lives.

Rivkin is a blithering enabler of Presidential excess. He is John Yoo’s spiritual clone. He is one of these “plug-in” experts that the MSM love. Need a defense of an Administration action? Call Rivkin. He’s bad on the facts. He has zero understanding of the Constitution but he is a lawyer with a suitable pedigree so that makes him and his opinions no matter how dishones OK, right?

“Stop acting like rubes.”

;0)

jhaygood @ 35

I often wonder at what point the war supporters (re: Vietnam or Iraq) would say, “This is a disaster and a waste, let’s get out…” In one way I’d like to finally reach that point, to finally reach agreement, to finally know where that tipping point is in their minds. Unfortunately, reaching that point comes at an equally unknown and unacceptable cost, and may always be a Friedman away…

If you’re not familiar with it already, look up the concept of “sunk costs” (with regard to investing, particularly.)

No matter how bad things get, in their minds (and Bush’s) we don’t lose until we leave, and then losing is entirely the fault of those who make us leave.

Redshift @ 69

BigMitch @ 60

ccmask — did you think she deserved the jail time she got for her role in Scooter-gate?

Yes. She wasn’t protecting a source; she never wrote a story about it. She was protecting her ability to get access to such sources in the future, that is, her career prospects.

In addition, she wasn’t even doing that in the service of the public’s right to know, she was doing it in the service of the government’s ability to spread lies anonymously and without consequence, the exact opposite of the public interest. (However, bad as it is, I’m not sure that one is a judgment I’d want the legal system to be making. But the first, definitely.)

I agree. And add this: If someone tells her the name of a under-cover agent, (a) the public doesn’t have a right to know that, and (b) she is a witness to a crime. It’s as if, I went up to her and stuck a gun in her gut and said, “Your money or your life!” Then I tried to keep her off the witness stand because the communication was privileged.

Hugh @ 75

LS @ 53

That Rivkin guy was on Washington Journal, and as I understand it, he tried to justify spying on Americans as okay, because Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote an opinion regarding checkpoint searches for alcohol as being justified and not a breach of the 4th Amendment, because it saves lives.

Rivkin is a blithering enabler of Presidential excess. He is John Yoo’s spiritual clone. He is one of these “plug-in” experts that the MSM love. Need a defense of an Administration action? Call Rivkin. He’s bad on the facts. He has zero understanding of the Constitution but he is a lawyer with a suitable pedigree so that makes him and his opinions no matter how dishones OK, right?

I know. I think he’s an A-hole. I thought it was a peculiar and weak justification for him to make in defending the spying of Americans.

BigMitch @ 60

ccmask — did you think she deserved the jail time she got for her role in Scooter-gate?

Yes, I did. First of all, she shouldn’t be protected by the journalist law because she is just a fabricator & not a journalist. All those stories she published during the run up to war ended up being nothing but BS, right?

john in sacramento @ 72

860

The number of US military dead in Iraq and Afghanistan since the Democrats won Congress and promised withdrawal

KO should change his sign-off, which currently is X many days since “Mission Accomplished” was declared — this is now the more powerful, and painful, truth.

pacifist is one who rejects war in all circumstances. Pacifists opposed American entry into WWII before and after Pearl Harbor. In my view, they were wrong in both time frames. I respect the opinions of Pacifists, being based upon principle and a desire for peache. But I disagree in some cases.

Student:
Could you briefly describe idiot compassion?

Chogyam Trungpa:
Idiot compassion is the highly conceptualized idea
that you want to do good….Of course, [according to
the Mahayana teachings of Buddhism] you should do
everything for everybody; there is no selection
involved at all. But that doesn’t mean to say that you
have to be gentle all the time. Your gentleness should
have heart, strength. In order that your compassion
doesn’t become idiot compassion, you have to use your
intelligence. Otherwise, there could be self-indulgence
of thinking that you are creating a compassionate situation
when in fact you are feeding the other person’s aggression.
If you go to a shop and the shopkeeper cheats you and you
go back and let him cheat you again, that doesn’t seem to
be a very healthy thing to do for others.

~ Chogyam Trungpa

Redshift @ 77

jhaygood @ 35

I often wonder at what point the war supporters (re: Vietnam or Iraq) would say, “This is a disaster and a waste, let’s get out…” In one way I’d like to finally reach that point, to finally reach agreement, to finally know where that tipping point is in their minds. Unfortunately, reaching that point comes at an equally unknown and unacceptable cost, and may always be a Friedman away…

If you’re not familiar with it already, look up the concept of “sunk costs” (with regard to investing, particularly.)

No matter how bad things get, in their minds (and Bush’s) we don’t lose until we leave, and then losing is entirely the fault of those who make us leave.

War supporters never give up because if we only do it one more time and a little bit harder, or stay one more FU, we’ll win, and anyone who wants to leave before that is a fefeatist traitor. I’ve run into several NYC taxi drivers who were VN vets who said that we had almost won when he was there & if we’d only put his commander in charge . . . There’s even a book uut in the last year or so that rewrites history as the “truth” about VN. I know because I saw the author on Book-TV.

john in sacramento @ 72

860

The number of US military dead in Iraq and Afghanistan since the Democrats won Congress and promised withdrawal

Withdrawal from Iraq has been blocked by almost unanimous Republican warmongering. A majority in the Senate has been blocked because 60 votes are needed. Democrats have been disappointing but the Republicans have committed treason against the Constitution.

Hugh @ 77

LS @ 53

That Rivkin guy was on Washington Journal, and as I understand it, he tried to justify spying on Americans as okay, because Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote an opinion regarding checkpoint searches for alcohol as being justified and not a breach of the 4th Amendment, because it saves lives.

Rivkin is a blithering enabler of Presidential excess. He is John Yoo’s spiritual clone. He is one of these “plug-in” experts that the MSM love. Need a defense of an Administration action? Call Rivkin. He’s bad on the facts. He has zero understanding of the Constitution but he is a lawyer with a suitable pedigree so that makes him and his opinions no matter how dishones OK, right?

Hear, hear!!!

But, dear Hugh, you forgot blathering idiot as well as neocon fathead — everytime I hear/see him, not only is the Constitution in tatters and more, but my head explodes!

ccmask @ 80

BigMitch @ 60

ccmask — did you think she deserved the jail time she got for her role in Scooter-gate?

Yes, I did. First of all, she shouldn’t be protected by the journalist law because she is just a fabricator & not a journalist. All those stories she published during the run up to war ended up being nothing but BS, right?

The jail time she received was justified because she was withholding her sources, which was obstructing the investigation of the crime of outing a CIA agent.

Three items of perspective:
– June was one of the highest U.S. tolls on record.
– Petraeus is now paying and arming our formerly major opponents the Sunni insurgents.
– This month 73% of our casualties were inflicted by the Shiites, but they’ve not yet fielded their best troops.

Nola Sue @ 83

john in sacramento @ 72

860

The number of US military dead in Iraq and Afghanistan since the Democrats won Congress and promised withdrawal

KO should change his sign-off, which currently is X many days since “Mission Accomplished” was declared — this is now the more powerful, and painful, truth.

disagree. just because the democrats are feckless cavers doesn’t mean we shouldn’t keep pointing the finger at the party of war – the republicans.

QuakerGirl @ 57

SufiLizard @ 43

Have you ever heard any of these organizations interviewed on Washington Journal or other C-SPAN programs? I haven’t but maybe I missed it. May PBS? I expect nothing from the other stations so I won’t bother to ask. I think I need some dark chocolate to get me through this day.

Sadly, I don’t ever hear these groups get coverage on even the supposedly liberal side of the media let alone the mainstream.

I wish for every episode of 700 Club on television stations there was a liberal Quaker or even Mennonite or some other peace-church show.

Instead of having Robertson or Dobson represent the “Christian” point of view on news shows I wish they’d have Phil Gulley or Bishop Shelby Spong.

Knut Wicksell @ 27

Speaking of progress, the 5,000 Brits left in Iraq are holed up in Basra, where they are taking unprecedented amounts of fire. The city is in the hands of locals not particularly supportive of the U.S. effort to ‘pacify’ their country.

This venture is going to end up a military disaster of the first order. Up to now, it only reaches the second order.

On the other topic. I still can’t get my mind around the Reid and Pelosi’s craven surrender to Bush on FISA. Are they just holding their breath until 2008 and hoping against hope that Rove won’t pull another rabbit out of the hat? Or were they shown some information that forced them to take out an insurance policy? Some people get angry. At this point, I am only at the sick-to-my-stomach stage of grieving, you know — the one that comes right before Denial.

http://www.truthdig.com/report….._disaster/
Here is an article by a well respected author

By Chris Hedges

The war in Iraq is about to get worse—much worse. The Democrats’ decision to let the war run its course, while they frantically wash their hands of responsibility, means that it will sputter and stagger forward until the mission collapses. This will be sudden. The security of the Green Zone, our imperial city, will be increasingly breached. Command and control will disintegrate. And we will back out of Iraq humiliated and defeated. But this will not be the end of the conflict. It will, in fact, signal a phase of the war far deadlier and more dangerous to American interests.

Going home now…

American soldiers in Iraq are not people to this administration. They are either confirmed or possible collateral damage.

let’s also remind everyone that Iraq’s have left Iraq in droves, the fewer Iraqi’s the fewer insurgents

so maybe that’s their plan, get rid of everyone in Iraq and then the Iraqi insurgent problem will be solved

YKOS on C-SPAN 1 now.

LS @ 79

Hugh @ 75

Rivkin is a blithering enabler of Presidential excess. He is John Yoo’s spiritual clone. He is one of these “plug-in” experts that the MSM love. Need a defense of an Administration action? Call Rivkin. He’s bad on the facts. He has zero understanding of the Constitution but he is a lawyer with a suitable pedigree so that makes him and his opinions no matter how dishones OK, right?

I know. I think he’s an A-hole. I thought it was a peculiar and weak justification for him to make in defending the spying of Americans.

Yeah, I know I just see red when I see the name. IANAL but his example sucks as well. In a checkpoint you are aware that the search is being made, it is not unlimited, and you have a judicial recourse. Also you are not subjected to such a search, say everytime you go to the grocery store but you can be everytime you pick up the phone or send an email.

Frank33 @ 86

john in sacramento @ 72

860

The number of US military dead in Iraq and Afghanistan since the Democrats won Congress and promised withdrawal

Withdrawal from Iraq has been blocked by almost unanimous Republican warmongering. A majority in the Senate has been blocked because 60 votes are needed. Democrats have been disappointing but the Republicans have committed treason against the Constitution.

With all due respect, Frank, I say “Bullshit.” Sixty votes are needed to shut off debate, i.e. to stop a fillabuster. I say, put a motion on the table, (especially just before adjournment) and let the Republicans fillabuster. And talk, and talk, and talk as much as they want. When they run out of breath a 51 vote majority will carry the motion. In the mean time the American people will see who is on their side.

I may be a dope, but for the life of me, I can’t see the downside of this.

War supporters never give up because if we only do it one more time and a little bit harder, or stay one more FW, we’ll win, and anyone who wants to leave before that is a fefeatist traitor. I’ve run into several NYC taxi drivers who were VN vets who said that we had almost won when he was there & if we’d only put his commander in charge . . . There’s even a book uut in the last year or so that rewrites history as the “truth” about VN. I know because I saw the author on Book-TV.

“We were winning when I left is not only a popular saying among Nam Vets, they also put it on button”. One of the most disappointing things about the last election is that it made me realize nothing had changed in the 30 years since the end of the Vietnam War. I have stood at the Wall and listened to Rocky Blier say, “some of us were cooks, some of us were grunts, some of us were nurses but we are all together now”. Bullshit. The swiftboaters made it clear to me that nothing had changed. All the revelations of the stupidity and dereliction of duty of Mac Namara, LBJ, Nixon et al. All the studies showing atrocities were worse than what we in the VVAW said they were. None of it made a bit of difference. All a person can do is what they think is right and not worry about what others say.

And we are going to get punked by this guy Petraeus.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 100

And we are going to get punked by this guy Petraeus.

Of course.

From AntiWar.com: http://antiwar.com/quotes.php

“The question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam worth? And the answer is not very damned many.”

~Dick Cheney

About the quote: Speaking to the Discovery Institute after the first Gulf War, on 8/14/1992, when he was Secretary of Defense.

Kinda’ gets to the heart of things, huh?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 100

And we are going to get punked by this guy Petraeus.

Yup. Its already started.

Hugh @ 95

LS @ 79

I know. I think he’s an A-hole. I thought it was a peculiar and weak justification for him to make in defending the spying of Americans.

Yeah, I know I just see red when I see the name. IANAL but his example sucks as well. In a checkpoint you are aware that the search is being made, it not unlimited, and you have a judicial recourse. Also you are not subjected to such a search, say everytime you go to the grocery store but you can be everytime you pick up the phone or send an email.

He was very ably countered by Glenn Greenwald

Oklahoma kiddo @ 100

And we are going to get punked by this guy Petraeus.

yeppers. ;(

Nola Sue @ 82

john in sacramento @ 72

860

The number of US military dead in Iraq and Afghanistan since the Democrats won Congress and promised withdrawal

KO should change his sign-off, which currently is X many days since “Mission Accomplished” was declared — this is now the more powerful, and painful, truth.

Source

792 he has up to July 4, plus the 68 not counted yet through the end of the month

Richmond @ 101

Oklahoma kiddo @ 100

And we are going to get punked by this guy Petraeus.

Yup. Its already started.

NO general is going to tell the commander in chief he can’t do what he was sent to do.

BigMitch @ 72

QuakerGirl @ 64

No matter where the war or under what circumstances, the consequences for the people are the same. Those who suffer the most and pay the highest price are women, children and the elderly. Far fewer professional military suffer. Most of those forty/sixty million killed in WWII were civilians.

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of “pacifist”? Not that I am trying to change your mind, just friendly curiosity.

A pacifist is one who rejects war in all circumstances. Pacifists opposed American entry into WWII before and after Pearl Harbor. In my view, they were wrong in both time frames. I respect the opinions of Pacifists, being based upon principle and a desire for peache. But I disagree in some cases.

Thank you. Much appreciated. Yes, I see alternatives to out and out war. That’s me. Does that mean in a one on one situation I would let someone kidnap my granddaughter without a fight? I would be that person’s worse nightmare. But their are many options country to country, society to society. It offers many alternatives. War gets out of hand. It feeds on itself. After firebombing so many cities in Japan, we didn’t need to drop two Atomic bombs on them. That was aimed at civilians. There was nothing heroic in such an act. War keeps going downhill. As I said earlier, I really need to get some dark chocolate today. I do this every time the anniversary of Hiroshima rolls around (not the dark chocolate bit, the remembrance of Hiroshima).

No doubt Petraeus will recommend another Frieman Unit to give the politicos in Iraq more time.

Hugh @ 97

LS @ 79

I know. I think he’s an A-hole. I thought it was a peculiar and weak justification for him to make in defending the spying of Americans.

Yeah, I know I just see red when I see the name. IANAL but his example sucks as well. In a checkpoint you are aware that the search is being made, it is not unlimited, and you have a judicial recourse. Also you are not subjected to such a search, say everytime you go to the grocery store but you can be everytime you pick up the phone or send an email.

And the element of implied consent, and the fact that you need a license to drive a vehicle.

QuakerGirl @ 106

BigMitch @ 72

A pacifist is one who rejects war in all circumstances. Pacifists opposed American entry into WWII before and after Pearl Harbor. In my view, they were wrong in both time frames. I respect the opinions of Pacifists, being based upon principle and a desire for peache. But I disagree in some cases.

Thank you. Much appreciated. Yes, I see alternatives to out and out war. That’s me. Does that mean in a one on one situation I would let someone kidnap my granddaughter without a fight? I would be that person’s worse nightmare. But their are many options country to country, society to society. It offers many alternatives. War gets out of hand. It feeds on itself. After firebombing so many cities in Japan, we didn’t need to drop two Atomic bombs on them. That was aimed at civilians. There was nothing heroic in such an act. War keeps going downhill. As I said earlier, I really need to get some dark chocolate today. I do this every time the anniversary of Hiroshima rolls around (not the dark chocolate bit, the remembrance of Hiroshima).

Didn’t we have this discussion yesterday?

[edit] Mass killings
R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture.”[8] According to Rummel, in China alone, during 1937-45, approximately 3.9 million Chinese were killed, mostly civilians, as a direct result of the Japanese operations and 10.2 millions in the course of the war.[9]

LS @ 96

YKOS on C-SPAN 1 now.

thanks

BigMitch @ 108

Hugh @ 97

Yeah, I know I just see red when I see the name. IANAL but his example sucks as well. In a checkpoint you are aware that the search is being made, it is not unlimited, and you have a judicial recourse. Also you are not subjected to such a search, say everytime you go to the grocery store but you can be everytime you pick up the phone or send an email.

And the element of implied consent, and the fact that you need a license to drive a vehicle.

Good points. Rivkin’s argument is like calling your pillow a bird because it has feathers.

raven @ 107

NO general is going to tell the commander in chief he can’t do what he was sent to do.

well, that’s not true, the REAL patriots tell him they’re not gonna go along and he shops generals until he finds someone to do it

then the REAL patriots resign so they can raise the alarm

then congress cowars with the information and allows the administration to proceed even when they are told it will damage our country, our armed forces and our ability to defend ourselves

Hugh @ 95

LS @ 79

I know. I think he’s an A-hole. I thought it was a peculiar and weak justification for him to make in defending the spying of Americans.

Yeah, I know I just see red when I see the name. IANAL but his example sucks as well. In a checkpoint you are aware that the search is being made, it not unlimited, and you have a judicial recourse. Also you are not subjected to such a search, say everytime you go to the grocery store but you can be everytime you pick up the phone or send an email.

True. My husband is a musician and 2 years ago, he was followed into the motel parking lot after having played a festival. I watched as he was told to get out of the car and lean on the side of the car, he was then searched..then the entire car was searched. They were looking for drugs, because they had picked up other people leaving the festival and had busted some people. They ransacked the car. I walked out from the room and told them we didn’t have drugs. The officer followed me to our room and searched the bathroom with his gun drawn, because he thought someone was behind the shower curtain. He searched the entire room, including dumping out my purse. The whole time I told him this was ridiculous. He didn’t get mad, he just sounded paranoid and dumb. Then they left.

eCAHNomics @ 85

Redshift @ 77

If you’re not familiar with it already, look up the concept of “sunk costs” (with regard to investing, particularly.)

No matter how bad things get, in their minds (and Bush’s) we don’t lose until we leave, and then losing is entirely the fault of those who make us leave.

War supporters never give up because if we only do it one more time and a little bit harder, or stay one more FU, we’ll win, and anyone who wants to leave before that is a fefeatist traitor. I’ve run into several NYC taxi drivers who were VN vets who said that we had almost won when he was there & if we’d only put his commander in charge . . . There’s even a book uut in the last year or so that rewrites history as the “truth” about VN. I know because I saw the author on Book-TV.

This is why a ‘German solution’ may turn out to be the only outcome for this Iraq invasion. By that I mean, total defeat. It seems to be the only thing that a large number of people will recognize as final. Anything less leaves open the ’stab in the back’ explanation. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.

here’s a question;

if congress works for us, how can they give themselves a raise whenever they feel like it?

another question;

can we reduce thier salary to minimum wage?

raven @ 107– with all due respect– ain’t that THE shame of it all? I mean Powell got hisself a medal and a lucrative speaking tour for his spectacular and ludicrous performance at the UN and Shinseki got canned for telling the truth.

democracy, shemocracy.

eCAHNomics @ 85

War supporters never give up because if we only do it one more time and a little bit harder, or stay one more FU, we’ll win, and anyone who wants to leave before that is a fefeatist traitor. I’ve run into several NYC taxi drivers who were VN vets who said that we had almost won when he was there & if we’d only put his commander in charge . . . There’s even a book uut in the last year or so that rewrites history as the “truth” about VN. I know because I saw the author on Book-TV.

Yeah, saw him too. It inspired me to write this.

QuakerGirl @ 108

BigMitch @ 72

A pacifist is one who rejects war in all circumstances. Pacifists opposed American entry into WWII before and after Pearl Harbor. In my view, they were wrong in both time frames. I respect the opinions of Pacifists, being based upon principle and a desire for peache. But I disagree in some cases.

Thank you. Much appreciated. Yes, I see alternatives to out and out war. That’s me. Does that mean in a one on one situation I would let someone kidnap my granddaughter without a fight? I would be that person’s worse nightmare. But their are many options country to country, society to society. It offers many alternatives. War gets out of hand. It feeds on itself. After firebombing so many cities in Japan, we didn’t need to drop two Atomic bombs on them. That was aimed at civilians. There was nothing heroic in such an act. War keeps going downhill. As I said earlier, I really need to get some dark chocolate today. I do this every time the anniversary of Hiroshima rolls around (not the dark chocolate bit, the remembrance of Hiroshima).

Speaking of Chocolate from the AP via the Boston Globe.

Richmond @ 55

On Idiot quotient: NYT and Judy Miller. This clearly goes well beyond simple stupidity and ignorance. And, it has continued (Michael Gordon and the O’Hanlan and Pollock op-ed piece (they didn’t known they were pro-war eagerlings???!!!). No this is about continuing to support the cause of war. And, alas it is working (American views on the war, the surge are shifting away from reality just as the Bush admin and the Neo-con pro Middle East interventionists want). Despicable – and worse.

I don’t know if it fools Americans. It just confuses them. If only temporarily. As opposed to 30% true believers who willingly believe anything the Chimpenfuhrer shovels.

Speaking of idiot quotients. Has anyone heard of the progress of that new movie-to-be in which Kate Beckinsale (how dumb is she?) is supposed to play damsel in distress, Judy Miller?

Randi Rhodes has an interesting point. Wont the wiretapping include all the calls for tech support in India and the like. You know, when the kid calls tech support to find out how to kill something as in his video game. Imagine
How many times do we call and are routed off our “soil”?

perris @ 112

raven @ 107

NO general is going to tell the commander in chief he can’t do what he was sent to do.

well, that’s not true, the REAL patriots tell him they’re not gonna go along and he shops generals until he finds someone to do it

then the REAL patriots resign so they can raise the alarm

then congress cowars with the information and allows the administration to proceed even when they are told it will damage our country, our armed forces and our ability to defend ourselves

And the example of that general was who? Don’t tell me it’s the one who said we needed more troops. I want to know what general officer said “they were not going to do it”?

Quaker Girl,

Dark chocolate is effective against dementors too. I don’t think that is just a coincidence.

SufiLizard @ 88

QuakerGirl @ 57

SufiLizard @ 43

Have you ever heard any of these organizations interviewed on Washington Journal or other C-SPAN programs? I haven’t but maybe I missed it. May PBS? I expect nothing from the other stations so I won’t bother to ask. I think I need some dark chocolate to get me through this day.

Sadly, I don’t ever hear these groups get coverage on even the supposedly liberal side of the media let alone the mainstream.

I wish for every episode of 700 Club on television stations there was a liberal Quaker or even Mennonite or some other peace-church show.

Instead of having Robertson or Dobson represent the “Christian” point of view on news shows I wish they’d have Phil Gulley or Bishop Shelby Spong.

That is also true of Rabbi Michael Lerner. He is a wonderful man willing to go to jail for his stand on peace. One hears very little of him in the media, and that does include the liberal media.

Knut Wicksell @ 116

eCAHNomics @ 85

War supporters never give up because if we only do it one more time and a little bit harder, or stay one more FU, we’ll win, and anyone who wants to leave before that is a fefeatist traitor. I’ve run into several NYC taxi drivers who were VN vets who said that we had almost won when he was there & if we’d only put his commander in charge . . . There’s even a book uut in the last year or so that rewrites history as the “truth” about VN. I know because I saw the author on Book-TV.

This is why a ‘German solution’ may turn out to be the only outcome for this Iraq invasion. By that I mean, total defeat. It seems to be the only thing that a large number of people will recognize as final. Anything less leaves open the ’stab in the back’ explanation. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.

I hate to think of our military guys stuck in Stalingrad though.

Nola Sue @ 83

john in sacramento @ 72

860

The number of US military dead in Iraq and Afghanistan since the Democrats won Congress and promised withdrawal

KO should change his sign-off, which currently is X many days since “Mission Accomplished” was declared — this is now the more powerful, and painful, truth.

if he is as mad as we are, maybe he could start adding it to his signoff.

I’m watching YKOS, and there is a young man, who campaigned for Webb. I wonder how he feels about Webb’s FISA vote?

Knut Wicksell @ 27

Speaking of progress, the 5,000 Brits left in Iraq are holed up in Basra, where they are taking unprecedented amounts of fire. The city is in the hands of locals not particularly supportive of the U.S. effort to ‘pacify’ their country.

This venture is going to end up a military disaster of the first order. Up to now, it only reaches the second order.

On the other topic. I still can’t get my mind around the Reid and Pelosi’s craven surrender to Bush on FISA. Are they just holding their breath until 2008 and hoping against hope that Rove won’t pull another rabbit out of the hat? Or were they shown some information that forced them to take out an insurance policy? Some people get angry. At this point, I am only at the sick-to-my-stomach stage of grieving, you know — the one that comes right before Denial.

when the Brits leave Basra the Americans will probably have to be either flown out or go North through Kurdish territory and then into Turkey. I wonder if fuckwad has thought of that.

snowbird42 @ 121

Randi Rhodes has an interesting point. Wont the wiretapping include all the calls for tech support in India and the like. You know, when the kid calls tech support to find out how to kill something as in his video game. Imagine
How many times do we call and are routed off our “soil”?

How could we ever really know?

anne @ 3

July 2003: 48
July 2004: 54
July 2005: 54
July 2006: 43
July 2007: 80

It really says a lot….

Coming late to the thread, but this bears repeating:

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
John Adams (1735-1826),
“Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials.” December 1770

Mui, Stalingrad is my concern at this point in Iraq; especially, because of the electricity infrastructure failures of recent days.

Who could have possibly predicted the British withdrawal from Basra?

Jeralyn at Talk Left has an interesting point RE: wiretaps. She points to a 1996 article and how it was Democrats (Conyers, Schumer) who wanted to expand wiretapping. Interestingly, it was the conservative Republicans who fought it.

LINK

mui @ 126

Knut Wicksell @ 116

This is why a ‘German solution’ may turn out to be the only outcome for this Iraq invasion. By that I mean, total defeat. It seems to be the only thing that a large number of people will recognize as final. Anything less leaves open the ’stab in the back’ explanation. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.

I hate to think of our military guys stuck in Stalingrad though.

Total defeat for who?

snowbird42 @ 122

Randi Rhodes has an interesting point. Wont the wiretapping include all the calls for tech support in India and the like. You know, when the kid calls tech support to find out how to kill something as in his video game. Imagine
How many times do we call and are routed off our “soil”?

I heard this too. And now much of on-line banking and health records are being routed overseas, so they will also have access to all kinds of financial and medical records. Great!

GordonM @ 118

eCAHNomics @ 85

War supporters never give up because if we only do it one more time and a little bit harder, or stay one more FU, we’ll win, and anyone who wants to leave before that is a fefeatist traitor. I’ve run into several NYC taxi drivers who were VN vets who said that we had almost won when he was there & if we’d only put his commander in charge . . . There’s even a book uut in the last year or so that rewrites history as the “truth” about VN. I know because I saw the author on Book-TV.

Yeah, saw him too. It inspired me to write this.

I especially enjoyed your scholarly footnote. :-)

The Stab in the Back metaphore is especially painful to Jewish ears, since it was used to justify the Holocaust.

LS @ 132

Mui, Stalingrad is my concern at this point in Iraq; especially, because of the electricity infrastructure failures of recent days.

Figure they’ll freeze to death huh?

raven @ 135

mui @ 126

I hate to think of our military guys stuck in Stalingrad though.

Total defeat for who?

Us. Whole army swallowed up by Russia.

I wanted to say that all of this the surge is working a la “harsh critics” O’Hanlon, Pollack, and others plus the talk about lower casualty numbers is part of a concerted effort to push the war when it comes up for review in September. Even the FISA debacle can be seen as part of this. It places Democrats on the defensive and splits them. Then, of course, in September we will get Petraeus and Crocker giving their “impartial” assessments. Can you say conflict of interest?

A week ago I would have given good odds that the Democrats would be able to come up with something, that they would finally stand up to Bush. Now I am not so sure. The Democrats didn’t leave town on a high note but with their tail between their legs. I see no pushback by them to the current pro-Iraq war propaganda being dished out by this Administration. Worse, I see no plan. Maybe Pelosi and Reid have some neat plan that we have yet to see, but given how easily they were suckered and/or turned into enablers of Bush policy over FISA I doubt it.

raven @ 122

perris @ 112

well, that’s not true, the REAL patriots tell him they’re not gonna go along and he shops generals until he finds someone to do it

then the REAL patriots resign so they can raise the alarm

then congress cowars with the information and allows the administration to proceed even when they are told it will damage our country, our armed forces and our ability to defend ourselves

And the example of that general was who? Don’t tell me it’s the one who said we needed more troops. I want to know what general officer said “they were not going to do it”?

I beleive there are at least five generals who’ve resiged to speak out, I don’t have the link but here’s general eaton;

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is not competent to lead our armed forces. First, his failure to build coalitions with our allies from what he dismissively called “old Europe” has imposed far greater demands and risks on our soldiers in Iraq than necessary. Second, he alienated his allies in our own military, ignoring the advice of seasoned officers and denying subordinates any chance for input.

In sum, he has shown himself incompetent strategically, operationally and tactically, and is far more than anyone else responsible for what has happened to our important mission in Iraq. Mr. Rumsfeld must step down.

…Last, you don’t expect a secretary of defense to be criticized for tactical ineptness. Normally, tactics are the domain of the soldier on the ground. But in this case we all felt what L. Paul Bremer, the former viceroy in Iraq, has called the “8,000-mile screwdriver” reaching from the Pentagon. Commanders in the field had their discretionary financing for things like rebuilding hospitals and providing police uniforms randomly cut; money to pay Iraqi construction firms to build barracks was withheld; contracts we made for purchasing military equipment for the new Iraqi Army were rewritten back in Washington.

snowbird42 @ 122

Randi Rhodes has an interesting point. Wont the wiretapping include all the calls for tech support in India and the like. You know, when the kid calls tech support to find out how to kill something as in his video game. Imagine
How many times do we call and are routed off our “soil”?

Are there any video games involving terrorists and bombs? If not, they should develop them – beta versions that are very buggy. That should drive the NSA people batshit.

mui @ 139

raven @ 135

Total defeat for who?

Us. Whole army swallowed up by Russia.

Oh, I thought we were using Stalingrad as a metaphor for Iraq.

raven @ 137

LS @ 132

Mui, Stalingrad is my concern at this point in Iraq; especially, because of the electricity infrastructure failures of recent days.

Figure they’ll freeze to death huh?

I figure supplies, food, and water could get cut off for both troops and civilians…not freeze, swelter.

LS @ 128

I’m watching YKOS, and there is a young man, who campaigned for Webb. I wonder how he feels about Webb’s FISA vote?

Are they replaying the Macaca/Lane Hudson/Mike Stark segment again? Saw it last night. It was good.

JF @ 133

Jeralyn at Talk Left has an interesting point RE: wiretaps. She points to a 1996 article and how it was Democrats (Conyers, Schumer) who wanted to expand wiretapping. Interestingly, it was the conservative Republicans who fought it.

LINK

There’s a very expensive satellite sitting in storage at a cost of $1M / year for the last 10 years, simply because it was a pet project of VP Gore’s, and no way the GOP was going to allow it to be launched.

As Norquist admitted, the Republican version of bipartisanship is date rape.

Sparkles the Iguana @ 144

LS @ 128

I’m watching YKOS, and there is a young man, who campaigned for Webb. I wonder how he feels about Webb’s FISA vote?

Are they replaying the Macaca/Lane Hudson/Mike Stark segment again? Saw it last night. It was good.

I think so, it’s over now, I just caught the tail end, and didn’t get too much out of it.

Hugh @ 138

I wanted to say that all of this the surge is working a la “harsh critics” O’Hanlon, Pollack, and others plus the talk about lower casualty numbers is part of a concerted effort to push the war when it comes up for review in September. Even the FISA debacle can be seen as part of this. It places Democrats on the defensive and splits them. Then, of course, in September we will get Petraeus and Crocker giving their “impartial” assessments. Can you say conflict of interest?

A week ago I would have given good odds that the Democrats would be able to come up with something, that they would finally stand up to Bush. Now I am not so sure. The Democrats didn’t leave town on a high note but with their tail between their legs. I see no pushback by them to the current pro-Iraq war propaganda being dished out by this Administration. Worse, I see no plan. Maybe Pelosi and Reid have some neat plan that we have yet to see, but given how easily they were suckered and/or turned into enablers of Bush policy over FISA I doubt it.

I think they’re going to accept that Bush wants to stay in Iraq through his term and try to say “We tried to get out, but the Republicans blocked us” as a way to win the 2008 elections.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is not competent to lead our armed forces. First, his failure to build coalitions with our allies from what he dismissively called “old Europe” has imposed far greater demands and risks on our soldiers in Iraq than necessary. Second, he alienated his allies in our own military, ignoring the advice of seasoned officers and denying subordinates any chance for input.

In sum, he has shown himself incompetent strategically, operationally and tactically, and is far more than anyone else responsible for what has happened to our important mission in Iraq. Mr. Rumsfeld must step down.

…Last, you don’t expect a secretary of defense to be criticized for tactical ineptness. Normally, tactics are the domain of the soldier on the ground. But in this case we all felt what L. Paul Bremer, the former viceroy in Iraq, has called the “8,000-mile screwdriver” reaching from the Pentagon. Commanders in the field had their discretionary financing for things like rebuilding hospitals and providing police uniforms randomly cut; money to pay Iraqi construction firms to build barracks was withheld; contracts we made for purchasing military equipment for the new Iraqi Army were rewritten back in Washington.

My understanding is that these guys resigned or retired and then spoke out. I recall people saying “why didn’t you do this when you were on active duty” and they said because it wasn’t their place as active duty officers. I could be wrong.

ls at 115: paranoid and dumb. Was it a state trooper in MA?

Hugh @ 140

I wanted to say that all of this the surge is working a la “harsh critics” O’Hanlon, Pollack, and others plus the talk about lower casualty numbers is part of a concerted effort to push the war when it comes up for review in September. Even the FISA debacle can be seen as part of this. It places Democrats on the defensive and splits them. Then, of course, in September we will get Petraeus and Crocker giving their “impartial” assessments. Can you say conflict of interest?

A week ago I would have given good odds that the Democrats would be able to come up with something, that they would finally stand up to Bush. Now I am not so sure. The Democrats didn’t leave town on a high note but with their tail between their legs. I see no pushback by them to the current pro-Iraq war propaganda being dished out by this Administration. Worse, I see no plan. Maybe Pelosi and Reid have some neat plan that we have yet to see, but given how easily they were suckered and/or turned into enablers of Bush policy over FISA I doubt it.

Something in my mind always connects “surge is working” to “surge” is working for Blackwell &etc.

jim oconnor @ 149

ls at 115: paranoid and dumb. Was it a state trooper in MA?

TX

LS @ 144

raven @ 137

Figure they’ll freeze to death huh?

I figure supplies, food, and water could get cut off for both troops and civilians…not freeze, swelter.

That is entirely are fault. As Emerald City pointed out, instead of handing big checks to contractors, we could have rebuilt Iraq’s infrastructure. There is actually less electricity produced than in the days of Saddam. And we wonder why the Iraqis are so angry.

raven @ 106

Richmond @ 101

Yup. Its already started.

NO general is going to tell the commander in chief he can’t do what he was sent to do.

Patraeus’ job is not to set overall strategy, so he’ll never say we should get the hell out. His job is to work to achieve Bush’s goal (whatever that is), and he will certainly say he needs more time for that. Bush is playing this game, pretending that Patraeus will determine whether we should be in Iraq or not – and that’s just not the military’s job.

raven @ 108

QuakerGirl @ 106

Thank you. Much appreciated. Yes, I see alternatives to out and out war. That’s me. Does that mean in a one on one situation I would let someone kidnap my granddaughter without a fight? I would be that person’s worse nightmare. But their are many options country to country, society to society. It offers many alternatives. War gets out of hand. It feeds on itself. After firebombing so many cities in Japan, we didn’t need to drop two Atomic bombs on them. That was aimed at civilians. There was nothing heroic in such an act. War keeps going downhill. As I said earlier, I really need to get some dark chocolate today. I do this every time the anniversary of Hiroshima rolls around (not the dark chocolate bit, the remembrance of Hiroshima).

Didn’t we have this discussion yesterday?

[edit] Mass killings
R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture.”[8] According to Rummel, in China alone, during 1937-45, approximately 3.9 million Chinese were killed, mostly civilians, as a direct result of the Japanese operations and 10.2 millions in the course of the war.[9]

Of course the Japanese military and their government did. Many people closed their eyes to what they were doing. My Indonesian family were among the victims who suffered terribly. It affects them to this day. People’s conduct in war goes steadily down hill. Believe me, it is not a one day topic swept under the carpet until next year. It lasts every day. It goes on every day. Iraq is one great continuum.

QuakerGirl @ 125

SufiLizard @ 88

Sadly, I don’t ever hear these groups get coverage on even the supposedly liberal side of the media let alone the mainstream.

I wish for every episode of 700 Club on television stations there was a liberal Quaker or even Mennonite or some other peace-church show.

Instead of having Robertson or Dobson represent the “Christian” point of view on news shows I wish they’d have Phil Gulley or Bishop Shelby Spong.

That is also true of Rabbi Michael Lerner. He is a wonderful man willing to go to jail for his stand on peace. One hears very little of him in the media, and that does include the liberal media.

Rabbi Lerner is a controversial figure, but it can hardly be said of him that he is ignored by the liberal media. He publishes a lefty magazine called Tikkun. In my view, his anti-Israel propaganda needs to be repaired.

raven @ 123

And the example of that general was who? Don’t tell me it’s the one who said we needed more troops. I want to know what general officer said “they were not going to do it”?

here ya go

6 generals involved in Iraq who retired and then raised the alarm

fahrender @ 129

Oh goody: repeating the Anabasis.
Great idea. Not.
(The Turks will certainly have an opinion on this. Have they even looked at the maps?)

raven @ 143

mui @ 139

Us. Whole army swallowed up by Russia.

Oh, I thought we were using Stalingrad as a metaphor for Iraq.

Quite right. But it’s a scary one isn’t it. H*tler telling german soldiers they can ward of cold by putting paper bags over their heads, bears some similiarity to the Chimpenfuhrers mentality to the troops.

New thread upstairs.

dakine01 @ 120

QuakerGirl @ 108

Thank you. Much appreciated. Yes, I see alternatives to out and out war. That’s me. Does that mean in a one on one situation I would let someone kidnap my granddaughter without a fight? I would be that person’s worse nightmare. But their are many options country to country, society to society. It offers many alternatives. War gets out of hand. It feeds on itself. After firebombing so many cities in Japan, we didn’t need to drop two Atomic bombs on them. That was aimed at civilians. There was nothing heroic in such an act. War keeps going downhill. As I said earlier, I really need to get some dark chocolate today. I do this every time the anniversary of Hiroshima rolls around (not the dark chocolate bit, the remembrance of Hiroshima).

Speaking of Chocolate from the AP via the Boston Globe.

You bet I signed that petition months ago. Keep up the good fight, I say. :))

perris @ 157

raven @ 123

And the example of that general was who? Don’t tell me it’s the one who said we needed more troops. I want to know what general officer said “they were not going to do it”?

here ya go

6 generals involved in Iraq who retired and then raised the alarm

chuei hoi

randiego @ 90

Nola Sue @ 83

KO should change his sign-off, which currently is X many days since “Mission Accomplished” was declared — this is now the more powerful, and painful, truth.

disagree. just because the democrats are feckless cavers doesn’t mean we shouldn’t keep pointing the finger at the party of war – the republicans.

Certainly an excellent argument, and I’m all for marshalling our energies to make real change. But at some point, if you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem.

We’ve seen approximately ZERO evidence that the dem “leaders” are actually trying to make meaningful change. We get all excited, like some love-sick 8th grade girl ‘cuz the cute boy just looked her way, when they show some hint of a spine.

Then they cave.

WHY is a R minority STILL driving this bus? And how can we possibly sleep at night knowing the sacrifices being made by some mothers’ sons or children’s fathers? And for what? Politics?

Sorry. As one who supported MN Sen. Amy Klobuchar, former county prosecutor whose ads a year ago proclaimed she’d stand up “without fear or favor,” I’m pretty disillustioned right now. I’m very angry. Even more sad.

QuakerGirl @ 161

dakine01 @ 120

Speaking of Chocolate from the AP via the Boston Globe.

You bet I signed that petition months ago. Keep up the good fight, I say. :))

So did I but thought the update was worth mentioning…

QuakerGirl @ 155

raven @ 108

Didn’t we have this discussion yesterday?

[edit] Mass killings
R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture.”[8] According to Rummel, in China alone, during 1937-45, approximately 3.9 million Chinese were killed, mostly civilians, as a direct result of the Japanese operations and 10.2 millions in the course of the war.[9]

Of course the Japanese military and their government did. Many people closed their eyes to what they were doing. My Indonesian family were among the victims who suffered terribly. It affects them to this day. People’s conduct in war goes steadily down hill. Believe me, it is not a one day topic swept under the carpet until next year. It lasts every day. It goes on every day. Iraq is one great continuum.�

Maybe it’s part of the human condition?

anne @ 3

July 2003: 48
July 2004: 54
July 2005: 54
July 2006: 43
July 2007: 80

It really says a lot….

Even this set of statistics needs to be rounded out a bit more:

July 2001: 0 (when there was no threat)
July 2002: 0 (when there was no threat)
July 2003: 48
July 2004: 54
July 2005: 54
July 2006: 43
July 2007: 80

&, of course

Americans killed by Iraqis 9/11 2001: 0

slainte,
cl

BigMitch @ 24

ccmask @ 15

I visited the Vietnam War Memorial in Chicago the other day. It was a pretty amazing place. Etched in the stones on the floor are all the important events during the whole Vietnam war, like “Pentagon Papers Released”, etc. This beautiful Chicago park display left me very very sad.

Since the Gettysburg Address the three words “died in vain” has been an especially evocative expression. Woe unto any politician would say that in public about the troops who suffered needless deaths in Iraq. (Obama has a nice finesse: “I wouldn’t want to use words that add to the pain of their families.”)

Still, when it comes to Viet Nam it is hard to answer Phil Ochs’ memorable question: “Look at all we’ve won with the saber and the gun, and tell me was it worth it all.”

We did learn one thing in Viet Nam. We learned that a dedicated corps of anti-war activists can garner enough public support to turn the tide of history.

When we work to end the war in Iraq, we are honoring the memory of 50,000 Americans who didn’t have to die in Viet Nam.

Unfortunately, we failed to learn the underlying lessons inherent to Vietnam! We allowed the same characters to blindly lead us into another ‘Died in Vain’ travesty! Will we ever learn…???

JF @ 133

Jeralyn at Talk Left has an interesting point RE: wiretaps. She points to a 1996 article and how it was Democrats (Conyers, Schumer) who wanted to expand wiretapping. Interestingly, it was the conservative Republicans who fought it.

LINK

I about fell off my chair when I read who said this …

‘The … administration would like the Federal Government to have the capability to read any international or domestic computer communications. The FBI wants access to decode, digest, and discuss financial transactions, personal email, and proprietary information sent abroad — all in the name of national security.

[…]

The protections of the Fourth Amendment are clear. The right to protection from unlawful searches is an indivisible American value. Two hundred years of court decisions have stood in defense of this fundamental right …’”

John Ashcroft

I’m very rapidly coming to the conclusion that the Democratic leadership wanted the spying program to continue, and not that they were tricked into it

BigMitch @ 156

QuakerGirl @ 125

That is also true of Rabbi Michael Lerner. He is a wonderful man willing to go to jail for his stand on peace. One hears very little of him in the media, and that does include the liberal media.

Rabbi Lerner is a controversial figure, but it can hardly be said of him that he is ignored by the liberal media. He publishes a lefty magazine called Tikkun. In my view, his anti-Israel propaganda needs to be repaired.

Rabbi Lerner is anti-violence. His voice is needed as another perspective otherwise it is like the Bush Administration, our way or the highway. No problem with having another voice. Besides, controversy ain’t bad. The same thing was said about MLK.

Hugh @ 140

I wanted to say that all of this the surge is working a la “harsh critics” O’Hanlon, Pollack, and others plus the talk about lower casualty numbers is part of a concerted effort to push the war when it comes up for review in September. Even the FISA debacle can be seen as part of this. It places Democrats on the defensive and splits them. Then, of course, in September we will get Petraeus and Crocker giving their “impartial” assessments. Can you say conflict of interest?

A week ago I would have given good odds that the Democrats would be able to come up with something, that they would finally stand up to Bush. Now I am not so sure. The Democrats didn’t leave town on a high note but with their tail between their legs. I see no pushback by them to the current pro-Iraq war propaganda being dished out by this Administration. Worse, I see no plan. Maybe Pelosi and Reid have some neat plan that we have yet to see, but given how easily they were suckered and/or turned into enablers of Bush policy over FISA I doubt it.

Yup. You are so right on. And, I don’t see that we outside of the DC circle of power have any viable plan to counter this. It is all (as with FISA)-let’s see what will happen then we will react.

Marretta @ 124

Quaker Girl,

Dark chocolate is effective against dementors too. I don’t think that is just a coincidence.

I agree. Goodness knows there are lots of dementors around.

QuakerGirl @ 169

BigMitch @ 156

Rabbi Lerner is a controversial figure, but it can hardly be said of him that he is ignored by the liberal media. He publishes a lefty magazine called Tikkun. In my view, his anti-Israel propaganda needs to be repaired.

Rabbi Lerner is anti-violence. His voice is needed as another perspective otherwise it is like the Bush Administration, our way or the highway. No problem with having another voice. Besides, controversy ain’t bad. The same thing was said about MLK.

I second your view. Smart critical voices are always needed.

Russ Feingold:

Last week law-abiding Americans were once again forced to surrender their rights and freedoms. The event was eerily similar to the unwise passage of the PATRIOT Act some six years ago. We once again had a power hungry executive and a Senate controlled by Democrats. The only difference was that the House of Representatives is now under the control of Democrats – which makes what happened all the more troubling.

The Democratic-led Congress voted to allow the President and his administration to intercept the phone calls and emails of American citizens, without a warrant, with virtually zero judicial oversight, and no reporting whatsoever to Congress. The government is now allowed to grab any communication believed to be from outside the U.S. That includes American citizens who live overseas, service members such as those in Iraq, journalists reporting from overseas, or even Members of Congress who are abroad and call home to the United States – all without any sort of court oversight. This goes far beyond the identified problem of foreign-to-foreign communications that we all agree needed to be fixed.

JF @ 134

Jeralyn at Talk Left has an interesting point RE: wiretaps. She points to a 1996 article and how it was Democrats (Conyers, Schumer) who wanted to expand wiretapping. Interestingly, it was the conservative Republicans who fought it.

LINK

well sure. just wait until there is a democratic president and they’ll be falling all over themselves again.

CTuttle @ 167

BigMitch @ 24

Since the Gettysburg Address the three words “died in vain” has been an especially evocative expression. Woe unto any politician would say that in public about the troops who suffered needless deaths in Iraq. (Obama has a nice finesse: “I wouldn’t want to use words that add to the pain of their families.”)

Still, when it comes to Viet Nam it is hard to answer Phil Ochs’ memorable question: “Look at all we’ve won with the saber and the gun, and tell me was it worth it all.”

We did learn one thing in Viet Nam. We learned that a dedicated corps of anti-war activists can garner enough public support to turn the tide of history.

When we work to end the war in Iraq, we are honoring the memory of 50,000 Americans who didn’t have to die in Viet Nam.

Unfortunately, we failed to learn the underlying lessons inherent to Vietnam! We allowed the same characters to blindly lead us into another ‘Died in Vain’ travesty! Will we ever learn…???

I think that PNAC (The Lobby) were not the instigators of Viet Nam, though they most certainly were of Iraq.

BigMitch @ 156

QuakerGirl @ 125

That is also true of Rabbi Michael Lerner. He is a wonderful man willing to go to jail for his stand on peace. One hears very little of him in the media, and that does include the liberal media.

Rabbi Lerner is a controversial figure, but it can hardly be said of him that he is ignored by the liberal media. He publishes a lefty magazine called Tikkun. In my view, his anti-Israel propaganda needs to be repaired.

But Big Mitch, Rabbi Lerner is right about Israel, as was Rabbi Wine, so what “needs to be repaired”?

HOORAY!!

CHOCOLATE RATIONS ARE UP!!!

Knut Wicksell @ 27

Speaking of progress, the 5,000 Brits left in Iraq are holed up in Basra, where they are taking unprecedented amounts of fire. The city is in the hands of locals not particularly supportive of the U.S. effort to ‘pacify’ their country.

This venture is going to end up a military disaster of the first order. Up to now, it only reaches the second order.

On the other topic. I still can’t get my mind around the Reid and Pelosi’s craven surrender to Bush on FISA. Are they just holding their breath until 2008 and hoping against hope that Rove won’t pull another rabbit out of the hat? Or were they shown some information that forced them to take out an insurance policy? Some people get angry. At this point, I am only at the sick-to-my-stomach stage of grieving, you know — the one that comes right before Denial.

Steve Gilliard-Basra is in the way of the evacuation route troops of ours and the Brits and anyone else’s will need to take for ship boarding.

As Basra falls, so does our evac route . . . Gilley, all OVER this one, as usual . . . kahplah Gilly!

eCAHNomics @ 39

eCAHNomics @ 18

[Mod Note; Comment edited by Mod. Please, no references to violence, snark or otherwise, directed towards anyone. Thank you.]

Thanks. Just being sarcastic. Didn’t even think about it that way.

I took it as a term of law used in mockery . . . what violence?

Frank33 @ 66

…
There is so much criminality and war profiteering that we cannot keep track. Another example of hundreds of thousands of missing weapons makes this only more dreadful.
____________________
According to a report by Amnesty International, which investigated the sales, the US government arranged for the delivery of at least 200,000 Kalashnikov machine guns from Bosnia to Iraq in 2004-05. But though the weaponry was said to be for arming the fledgling Iraqi military, there is no evidence of the guns reaching their recipient.

Hmmm.
To whom might Bushies want to give Kalashnikovs?
Hmmm.

Well, it would have to be someone we could claim is being supplied by the ‘normal’ Kalashnikov supplier — Russia.

It would probably have to be someone who isn’t presently well supplied.

It might well be someone we would need to oppose, else why would Bush supply them. After all, to have war you have to ensure both sides have arms (remember the Iran-Iraq war where we supplied both sides).

Perhaps in Sudan or Pakistan or even civilian groups in Iran…it’s hard to say without more information.

BigMitch @ 98

Frank33 @ 86

Withdrawal from Iraq has been blocked by almost unanimous Republican warmongering. A majority in the Senate has been blocked because 60 votes are needed. …

…
Sixty votes are needed to shut off debate, i.e. to stop a filibuster. I say, put a motion on the table, (especially just before adjournment) and let the Republicans filibuster. And talk, and talk, and talk as much as they want. When they run out of breath a 51 vote majority will carry the motion. In the mean time the American people will see who is on their side.

I may be a dope, but for the life of me, I can’t see the downside of this.

The downside is Republicans are perfectly happy to distract Democrats from legislating and governing. It’s one of their primary goals in life.

That’s why Nancy Pelosi says she wants to get certain legislation through and not waste time on impeachment.

One might suggest that a primary goal of the war in Iraq is to waste money and focus our attention away from domestic problems. In this way they distract Dems from governing and they put us into severe debt, so there’s not so much money Dems might want to use on domestic programs. It stinks, but I think it’s a valid argument.

You might ask why they are so adamant about not letting Dems legislate and govern, but they aren’t so keen on applying their own ideology to the tasks. Well, if you’ve been listening you know they think “government is the problem, not the answer”. They don’t want much government, except to get plum contracts and handouts and tax cuts.

Democrats — governing and leading

Republicans — subverting government

perris @ 157

raven @ 123

And the example of that general was who? Don’t tell me it’s the one who said we needed more troops. I want to know what general officer said “they were not going to do it”?

here ya go

6 generals involved in Iraq who retired and then raised the alarm

What happened to the one who didn’t show up for the congressional hearing? Has he ever surfaced?