You may be complaining about the draconian FISA law, but George Bush doesn’t think it goes far enough. In his message on signing the fix, he says that when Congress gets back in September they need to hop to providing “meaningful liability protection” for those are “alleged to have assisted our Nation following the attacks of September 11, 2001.”
Jack Balkin responds with appropriate sarcasm:
Note the key item on this wish list: legal immunity for having participated in the illegal NSA program.
I particularly love the phrase “alleged to have assisted our Nation.” In his letter to Congress the other day Intelligence Director Michael McConnell spoke of “liability protection for those who are alleged to have helped the country stay safe after September 11, 2001.” Apparently “allegedly helped us stay safe” is Bush Administration code for telecom companies and government officials who participated in a conspiracy to perform illegal surveillance. Because what they did is illegal, we do not admit that they actually did it, we only say that they are alleged to have done it. Or perhaps the Administration is suggesting that although such parties are alleged to have helped the country stay safe, there’s no evidence that their repeated violations of federal law actually did much to promote our security. No, they couldn’t mean that.
My guess is that President Bush plans to award those who allegedly helped save the country with alleged medals.
In the future I think he’s right, we’ll be crawling with George Tenets.
Related posts:
- Netroots Nation Panel on the Public Plan
- Breaking: Fort Hood Alleged Shooter Now Confirmed Alive
- Why I Interrupted Bill Clinton’s Speech at Netroots Nation
- Can Alleged Terrorists Get Fair Trials? The Case of Aafia Siddiqui
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Barry Ritholtz – Bailout Nation: How Greed and Easy Money Corrupted Wall Street and Shook the World Economy
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
ding dong
low number?
tres
Edwards rocking at Union debate.
“For douchebaggery above and beyond the call of traditional Republicanism…”
Edwards and Hillary hit them out of the park.
Top ten!
Aigh…
This stadium thing is working for Hillary. She is not worrying about sounding shrill. And in stead, she is sounding impassioned.
I’m feeling better. Can we trust them to do what they’re saying?
Anybody doubt that we have King George, George Caesar Bush, the Tsar and the Duma, a Dictatorship: pick one.
What I do NOT understand is why the Legislative Branch is terrorized by the Executive Branch. I read words, but I do not ‘get’ it.
“liability protection for those who are alleged to have helped the country stay safe after September 11, 2001.”
I’ve been wondering if that sort of covers Halliburton and KBR and Blackwater too.
I don’t see any of the republicans having the guts to answer questions from real people out of jobs like we are seeing now. btw, whatever ever happened to the republican cnn youtube debate?
I’d love for Keith to whip his snark out and give it to ‘em good
I think that Hillary is falling flat tonight. Unions don’t trust HRC? Imagine that.
Hillary is the one the rethugs want most because they know she will be the easiest to defeat. That is why they are pushing her (tweety & Business Week)
So, they “helped” but we can’t say they “helped” because “helping” was illegal. But we need to indemnify them for the “help” they allegedly provided.
We are through the looking glass now.
Twisted Martini @ 13
He always plays it straight when he’s in this position, he’s a real pro.
Why is Biden going after Edwards? That makes no sense.
LS @ 11
The Supreme Dictator demands that it cover anyone he wants it to cover: government by edict.
Do we really give out medals that look like that? That pic makes it looks like something out of Napoleonic France or the Kaiser’s Germany or something. How very imperial.
Is Dodd getting equal time?
TeddySanFran @ 17
Biden is corporate Demo and like the DCC is supporting Hilly.
Blub @ 19
What it looks like is the Medal of Honor and that is tragic.
Edwards does look like a parvenu compared to the others.
Obama used GOP framing for his response on immigration, ugh.
And Biden dares to talk about his labor cred with that damned bankruptcy change under his belt? Asshole.
What about the alleged law of gravity? Why don’t they repeal that one as well as long as they are at it? These are not my questions, of course. They are only my alleged questions for the current alleged President. I want to be very clear about that.
And 16 Ds still rolled over for this douchebag.
If Congress had done its job, George Bush would have been lined up against a wall and shot for treason.
Instead, they’ve just given him and his hunchback Gonzo the keys to every private conversation in the USA.
I didn’t think it was possible for the Democratic Party to FUBAR at Bush’s Level.
But they did.
And now 2008 is starting to look like a GOP pickup, because if there is one thing guaranteed to alienate the voters the Ds are counting on next year in November, its demonstrating how close the relationship to jellyfish our legislators are.
There is no forgiveness for that kind of treason. None.
FISA – isn’t the real insanity of the bill the D’s allowed to come to the floor and pass that it provides a free pass to those who have broken the FISA law …
BigMitch @ 22
And we should choose our President based on what they look like.
TeddySanFran @ 17
1. Edwards is the leader in Iowa. 2. Contrast his experience, which is Biden’s strongest suit.
Regarding the FISA bill, I just wanted to share a personal flash that is helping me want, or at least be willing, to face the day.
Now that I realize what rubberstamping senators and congresspersons THOUGHT they were voting for, their vote makes sense to me. They thought that they were voting “Yes” on the other FISA bill–the Fully Intrensic Spine Abatement bill.
Here’s a definition of “cave-in” (untouched from Encarta dict.): “2. An act or instance of ceasing opposition or resistance: The vote was seen as a cave-in to the demands of the administration.”
Oh, you thought they meant that OTHER FISA bill? Now I understand.
It’s interesting to watch frauds that have bamboozled and failed the American people in an abject fashion.
Does this mean that the FISA Fiasco that was just passed does NOT include this immunity???? I thought that it did!!! I am doing the Snoopy dance right now, hoping that this is right!!!
And I am hopeful that, having been snookered once again, that the Democrats will not fall for the same trick twice. Unless, of course, your name happens to be Charlie Brown.
Bob in HI
Biden’s behaving like the putz that he is. What was that off-mike speech he just made?
TeddySanFran @ 27
Dodd is on … great to see him get time and a chance to get the attention he deserves.
Blub @ 32
From the very first debate, it was known that he couldn’t control his mouth. Remember when he gave the one word answer? Everyone knew it would be his last.
Oh god, Hillary had a good NCLB response going until she basically said, “Bush implemented it wrong.” No, Hillary, it was designed specifically to destroy public education. It’s a bad idea from soup to nuts.
Fixed.
We think Edwards would make a fine president. Anyone on that stage it’s felt would be far better than Rudy, Freddy or Mittie.
Bob Schacht @ 31
It doesn’t give them immunity for what they did in the past. It does immunize them from anything they are asked to do now.
Edwards has been my first choice. But Dodd is really acquitting himself nicely.
BigMitch @ 24
That’s interesting. Why do you think that?
he says that when Congress gets back in September they need to hop to providing “meaningful liability protection” for those are “alleged to have assisted our Nation following the attacks of September 11, 2001.”
Luckily, George Fucking Bush will never be among those “alleged’ to have assisted this Nation following 9-11.
Dodd is good. And we would be very comfortable with President Dodd.
Dodd needed to be more on point wrt the
Union Insulator’s question.
This is what I mean by expert/ise.
Dude was breaking it down to everyday
construction of our buildings. (DING!)
We have to expand the scope of energy-smart
more broadly than even MPG standards
& alternative sources. K.I.S.S.
He has obviously been witness to countless
corner-cutting.
Once any institution (building) is built,
the effects of its efficiencies or lack
thereof are longstanding and difficult to undo.
(works for laws, too)
Alas, our candidate is not on that stage tonight.
TeddySanFran @ 29
Parvenu… great word. I think it works to his benefit. It’s an outsider’s election, if we can get past the fear.
I say the best way to provide “meaningful liability” is to sign on to the ICC and let The Hague have at it.
puppethead @ 38
Actually, I think that is what she said, but in her typically round-a-bout way (which she’s said before in other fora). She said it was a bad bill only after she said that it was unfunded and implemented correctly. She has a weird rhetorical style and trips over her own message by saying whatever. I think I know what she means though, and she’s right… not that I particularly like her
eCAHNomics @ 41
Because they are talking about decades on the foreign relations committee, supporting labor, etc.
Hugh @ 41
Thanks for the clarification.
Bob in HI
is it just my imagination or is Obama a big nothing today?
BigMitch @ 51
Got it. But then Obama too?
Bob Schacht @ 50
BUT — I heard that the phone companies were lobbying for retro-active immunity. How they had time to get their shit together to do this, suggests something elsewhere described as “fuckery.”
Biden being a blowhard for decades is hardly a recommendation. Hillary is only starting her second term as Senator. Obama isn’t through his first term. Edwards was in the Senate how long? One term.
eCAHNomics @ 52
Yes, but he is on his home turf.
Register your red hot vote here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19679074/
Bob Schacht @ 50
It does, however, make it much harder to punish them for past illegalities by making them legal now.
wow … Dodd mentioned the people of Iraq and Afghanistan … and gets the essential “terrorism” v. “terrorist” point in …
Bob Schacht @ 33
I’m pretty sure it included immunity for the govt perpetrators retroactively, immunity for telecoms going forward.
“There have been no terrorists attacks since 9-11″. Wrong Keith. It is called ANTHRAX! (Some firedogs said it was weapons grade anthrax.)
PrezCandi handlers need to tell them to answer the current question. It’s rude to the person asking it to go back to previous questions, regardless of the urgency of your position. In thirty seconds, you really only have time for one answer, and audience members deserve all that time, and more of course, for the answer to their current question.
Blub @ 53
Obama is becoming ‘unlikeable’. He needs to change tactics quickly.
Blub @ 51
Just today?
Good point Teddy … the people deserve more respect
BigMitch @ 57
That’s one of the fundamental issues in the D primary: insiders with experience but dubious records in the past 6 years, or (sorta) outsiders who one might hope would change things.
You know I’ve wondered and speculated elsewhere that perhaps the new Fisa legislation that just passed was exactly “the other intelligence activities” or part of the program or whatever Gonzo wants to call it, that prompted that Ashcroft hospital bed encounter with Gonzo, Comey, Mueller. I mean it’s been said that this new legislation went above and beyond what was needed to fill the gap in the current Fisa law and the part that was deemed illegal a few months ago.
Yikes and Obama just dodges a question about honoring Bonds if he were to break the Aaron’s homerun record. Even when pressed by KO.
Hugh @ 54
I didn’t say that Biden is making himself look good — I said he is making Edwards look like a Johnny come lately. Hillary does have a point that the best preparation for 8 years in the white house is 8 years in the white house, not to mention her time in Arkansas.
Hey, I like Edwards.
Damn that Biden — he just made me into a liar.
BigMitch @ 35
He just gave another one! “Would you end no-bid contracts?” “Yup”
TeddySanFran @ 16
That all depends on what your definition of ‘now’ is.
;>)
solai @ 63
I don’t need him to change tactics. He has yet to do anything risky or stand up and be a leader on anything. I’m quite happy to see him starting to drop back.
I want someone bold. Someone PROGRESSIVE. Some one I can trust. Someone who stands up for the least of our citizens. Someone willing to take risks to heal the mess we are in.
Obama, sadly doesn’t seem to be that.
RevDeb @ 72
Amen
CTuttle @ 58
“Who would you like most to join the Race?”
Gore: 61% (6555 votes)!!! 8-)
Hugh @ 56
It is interesting that Hillary’s eight years in the WH is not cited as experience. I don’t think she was baking cookies.
Obama “look” count: 5
Steve-AR @ 73
Something wrong with baking cookies?
What puppethead said.
And I’d like to hear a presidential news conference in which the President is asked exactly who are those who “alleged to have assisted our Nation following the attacks of September 11, 2001” and why do they need “meaningful liability protection.” And as a followup, Mr. President, are you suggesting a blanket indemnity for war profiteers, war criminals, or what?
darkblack @ 71
Hi db!
TribeScribe @ 76
We’re looking, but not seeing…!!!
Hillary had good answer to campaign length; esp good about bringing brooms to DC. Heck I’d show up for that. Maybe that’s a theme for a big demonstration.
The only bright side regarding the 2008 field is that the GOP runners are either A) Fucking Fruitcakes B)Crashing and Burning C)Have More Skeletons in their Closet then Beetlejuice D) Are Utterly Forgettable or E) All of the Above.
Edwards:we need public financing of campaigns.
RevDeb @ 70
It’s the second tier of Democratic candidates (i.e. not Obama or Hillary) that appear more progressive: Dodd, Edwards, and Richardson.
Our alleged War President.
He of the undeniable firm resolve and steely gaze.
eCAHNomics @ 81
Screw the brooms! It’s pitchfork and torch time!!! ;-)
jc inOR @ 78
Why not just pardon them “class-action” in advance?
Hugh @ 84
Yep.
Tweety STFU!!!
RevDeb @ 70
And this why I’m so looking forward to attending some of your services when you arrive in PA.
Watching to see if Hillary talks to Obama.
It’s the second tier of Democratic candidates (i.e. not Obama or Hillary) that appear more progressive: Dodd, Edwards, and Richardson.
I hereby move that Kucinich be elevated to the “second tier”. For now.
Kudos to Keith may be addressed to:
viewerservices@msnbc.com, countdown@msnbc.com, dabrams@msnbc.com, kolbermann@msnbc.com,
Tweety sez Hillary was “majestic”
Chocolate jeebus on a stick, Tweety.
Thankful for Dodd, Richardson & Kucinich –
great stuff!
Hugh @ 26
So, exactly what’s on your alleged mind? ;-)
TexBetsy @ 77
I love baking cookies; but then I eat the damn things. The Silpat sheets are great.
God these commentators know nothing, they learn nothing. Still beating the war drum.
TeddySanFran @ 91
it moved.
I like Biden too.
wigwam @ 93
Allegations allegedly alleged.
Corporations want rights like American citizens. They need to be accountable to the law like American Citizens (well make that most American citizens except White House felons sentenced to
too many30 months in jail.)Breaking news —
Yankees 4, Toronto 0 in the middle of the 5th
TribeScribe @ 98
tsk,tsk
His letter was nicer than mine. I asked him when he was going to do a “Nighthorse” and make it official!
Buchanan really liked Kucinich!
God, How I HATE Tweety. Let me count the ways . . . . .
Do I really care what Willie Brown and Pat Buchanan think about the debate? Because MSNBC thinks I do.
LS @ 105
Buchanan hates NAFTA.
Buchanan talking about Hill coming close to the line between strong and strident, almost crossing it. Projection much, Pat?
Hey, guys. I don’t watch TV.
My prediction: The next president will keep U.S. troops in Iraq.
Matthews & his hyperboles…majestic! Why do Matthews & republicans have this need to turn human beings into royalty or gods? Strangest damn thing.
No FISA questions.
eCAHNomics @ 108
Me too.
Willy Brown is VERY smart.
Kill your TV. Do radio instead, AAR’s discussing the debate in a meaningful way.
solai @ 101
yes I know, serious journalism, please.
never seen tweety-clinton twitterpation
Seinfeldesque comments here before –
No, dope, it is to the Constitution. So he voted for the Republican travesty instead. What a waste of oxygen.
TeddySanFran @ 106
I changed channels to Colbert.
More realistic.
Hillary’s answer re: pakistan was great until the last sentence.
I thought Kucinich won. The Tweetzer didnt mention him. I turned the TV to Nova
Gene Robinson admiring Hillary for changing her accent from Arkansas drawl when debating in South Carolina to Midwest twang when debating in Chi-cah-go.
TSF sez: Haven’t we had eight years of a President with a fake accent? Must we have another?
Lahoma tells me she hasn’t changed her mind regarding the front runners.
BigMitch @ 114
And, like Joe Lieberman, very wealthy for someone in public service his entire life.
Based upont this forum tonight, I think Kucinich did a swell job.
puppethead @ 115
Done. Thank you!
TeddySanFran @ 121
He’s from your neck of the woods. Is he crooked or not?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 122
did he win your support?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 124
We noticed, in my house, that he was more comfortable than previously as well as less critical of his mates on the stage. I liked that.
I’m thinking Edwards-Dodd.
ironranger @ 111
I have to wonder whether or not Tweety’s slobbering fixation for Hillary is sincere or some kind of Repblikan trick.
I am so glad KO asked the questions. I only saw part of the debate, but she didn’t look too good (two shades of green) when he asked about her money intake. Barack Obama probably lied about his intake. I though Edwards answer about the difference between trial lawyers and lobbyists was fair.
Does anybody know whether or not KO asked about the new wiretapping disastor?
The FISA legislation is a gut check for the left – will we stay on it or let it pass? (”Who won the debate Keith?”) We have to be single-minded on it and not be distracted by whatever pops up next. I just came across this analysis of the immigration bill and it’s dead on:
We need to do the same; this time there should be no shelter for the Democrats.
I think Edwards is very smart and wily, and would make a good president.
ironranger @ 111
I was noticing that the media is so hyperbole loaded. Hillary and Obama are “smacking each otheraround/having a brawl/bare fisted politics”….
Enough already, everything doesn’t need to be a WWE wrestling match.
-GSD
Kucinich is someone who is not afraid to present his views proudly.
That says a lot to me.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 122
OKK, I think you and Lahoma are really smart. Why, therefore, do you watch TV? I’m not being critical. I just think all FDL persons should ignore, totally ignore, TV. Let’s have our own conversation.
Dodd has a book coming out next week. I’m buying it.
Screw the phony ass Democratic debate.
Promises, promises.
Then, thank you, Bush. May I have another?
I’m sure the Democrats will be just as ready to roll over for Bush when they come back from vacation.
RickG @ 102
He used that f*ck*ng “H” word. *omeland. Everytime I hear it makes me cringe. Nothing but fascist, authoritarian, ultra-nationalionalistic connotations. When the H word was first used, I knew this country was headed for real trouble. And here we are.
Does anybody know whether or not KO asked about the new wiretapping disastor?
No, he didn’t. Probably just ran out of time.
The duty of a sentator or any other elected representative is to the constitution and to make and enforce the laws of the land. We have other agencies that do the work of safe guarding the nation, and their work must be examined and over sight maintained. But if they want to play junior G-man have them resign their position and sign up at their favorite agency.
mui @ 127
Did not.
Rolling Stone’s Matt Taibbi on Air America here.
866-303-2270 to call in with questions.
I like the Edwards line “We have to stop playing nice” (with corps.).
I don’t know about Richardson. He says he has the most foreign experience. That can’t be right. That would have to be someone like Hillary or Dodd who had the most experience. Anyway as we asked persons during the Lamont campaign, do you really thinkLieberman’s kind of experience will serve us better?
SeamusD @ 136
that one does make me see red
Der Homeland.
-GSD
mui@129: KO was certainly a fresh breath of air. I can’t even watch these things when Wolf or Matthews moderate.
It is just weird & nauseating how Matthews goes off on these descriptive tangents about people from junior to Fred Thompson to Hillary. He just plain sounds like a stoopid 13 year old.
jayt @ 135
It would have been interesting to lead with it.
TeddySanFran @ 128
No, Dodd needs to stay in the Senate if he’s not the nominee as the R governor of CT would appoint one of her corrupt fellow Rs to replace him/
BigMitch @ 127
I like what Mr. Kucinich says and would have no problem voting for this man. I also like Dodd and Edwards.
TeddySanFran @ 140
AirAmerica streaming doesn’t work for me. Radio silence when I click on it.
TeddySanFran @ 121
Hmmm – Dick certainly sounds like he’s from Wyoming…
;>)
Mui,
Richardson does have a very deep resume.
Wiki:
William Blaine “Bill” Richardson III (born November 15, 1947) is an American politician, and the current Governor of New Mexico. He is a candidate in the 2008 United States presidential election. He has previously served as a U.S. Representative, Ambassador to the United Nations, and as the U.S. Secretary of Energy.
He also polls around 70% in New Mexico.
I would like to see him kneecap Pajama Pete Domenici.
-GSD
SeamusD @ 136
Homeland security = Heimatsicherheitsdienst. Type it in google and the official dhs.gov site comes up.
Dan @ 130
Check Christy’s posts from the last few days. She has covered this topic with a lot of the commenters offering good ways to get the point across to the elected officials.
So whom all should we indemnify, if not decorate? Cooperative ISPs and telecoms, of course. How about public library boards and administrators who put up not the least resistance? And let’s not forget the private companies who are instrumental in various operational ways; we don’t entirely know who they are, since their contracts are classified, but big deal, let’s take care of all who are taking care of us.
TribeScribe @ 146
I want to hear the candidate’s answers.
mui @ 142
He’s had all kinds of foreign appts. Check out his website. I think he’s running for SecState.
I think Kucinich would relinquish much of the powers his predecessor has declared. I think president Kucinich would support belated accountability of this administration. I think he would fight to restore many civil liberties lost since Reagan.
I think Kucinich will end needless occupations and dramatically reduce defense spending.
I am also of the opinion as a poor man in need of some health care that Kucinich is my best hope for seeing a doctor in the next twenty years.
I am a liberal to the very core of my being and I do vote in my best interest when I have a chance..
Kucinich is my chance
GSD @ 151
I have a real bad impression of him from reading Greg Palast’s book. I don’t know if it’s justified.
TribeScribe @ 146
Well, once again my e-mail suggesting that went nowhere. That darn Keith. He never writes, never calls…
solai @ 112
Are you serious? Olbermann did not ask one single wiretapping question?
mui @ 140
Richardson was an ambassador.
mui @ 142
Richardson is a former UN Ambassador and has been a diplomatic envoy to iirc North Korea amongst other locales so he probably does have the most foreign experience
mui @ 160
too preplanned possibly? I’m disappointed, it’s obviously the issue of the day.
Mui,
He’s definately from the old school establishment, no doubt. I think his pappy was an oilman or a big banker or something like that.
But compared to the Republican Rogues gallery he and all the Democrats, Mrs. Clinton included are angels.
Plus I shook his hand in NH and he’s quite genial.
-GSD
eCAHNomics @ 156
Okay so I guess I thought of him as governor. But it really bothered me when he answered kind of hawkishly in maybe it was the first debate. I was ready to consider between him and Edwards, assuming that there was no way Kucinich would get elected. His and Obama and Hillary’s answers really turned me off for good.
Richardson is like a one man diplomatic back channel to North Korea. He is the only person they trust at all. During this administration his services were used in this regard, IIRC.
Wow, really scuzzy sponsors for this event on MSNBC-Kaiser Permanente & Ciallis.
mui @ 140
Richardson: 14 years in Congress
UN Ambassador for 2 years then
Secretary of Energy for 2 years
then Governor of New Mexico since 2002
Richardson also got into some trouble for exaggerating his baseball experience, or about being drafted by a baseball team, something like that.
dakine01 @ 162
ok, ok I stand corrected.
Elliott @ 161
It would take more than an hour and a half
to explain.
GSD @ 162
His geniality is considered a liability. Too genial to members of the fair sex, according to some.
TexBetsy @ 167
This is trivial, and I am one who takes baseball seriously. He said he was drafted, when in fact he was offered a contract. In either case it occurred when he was a kid, and confusing the two is an understandable mistake.
Jonathan @ 133
Lahoma’s the smarty pants. I’m the passionate one. As to tv? There’s lots of things we like on television. Among these are Olbermann, Moyers, old and new movies and a few other things. And as to having “our own conversation”? We are, you and me, doing that now. Aren’t we? ;0)
I hate that “I’m your girl.”
mui @ 150
New issue. This corrupt, and repressive, gestapo agency is used as a haven for the more dysfunctional bushies. “Homeland Security”, should be aboished!
eCAHNomics @ 175
Lahoma almost went ballistic about that. Well… that is to say ‘ballistic’ for her. You’d have to know her quite well to know she was angry.
Frank33 @ 176
What Lieberman’s baby? Lieberman can go down in history as the one who thought it was a really great idea to have Homeland swallow FEMA and spit it out in chunks.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 174
Thanks.
Sorry about being uninformed about Richardson guys. I really thought he was a local yokel type governor. I stand corrected. Don’t correct me anymore or I’ll cry. I mean on this subject. I know now UN amb etc. etc.
“liability protection for those who are alleged to have helped the country stay safe after September 11, 2001.” Apparently “allegedly helped us stay safe” is Bush Administration code for telecom companies and government officials who participated in a conspiracy to perform illegal surveillance.
————–
This suggests a mere allegation by *anyone* alleging actions helped us stay safe would shut down litigation.
So… aside from tel cos, couldn’t that language include other countries, govt employees and officials, any kind of private contractor, members of military, war profiteers, etc.
Carefully crafted broadest brush possible language, which will now be explained to us as meaning x (terror, terror, terror). But in fact meaning a free pass for all.. and remedies for none. The brazenness is breathtaking. A very slippery slope.. I hope someone will figure out how to frame this in terms of aiding corruption, since few even begin to get the constitutional issues – but folks are noticing the corruption.
I’m just glad all these brown shirts I’ve been crocheting wont go to waste.
eCAHNomics @ 175
I thought it was just me. As a woman around Hilary’s age, I would NEVER refer to myself that way. And would not appreciate anyone else doing it. She surprised me when she said that. Trying to be folksy? I’m tired of folksy. I want smart.
mui @ 180
lol
Anybody notice the body language of the three “consultants”….
Edwards guy and Obama’s guy, both swaying, in fact, they were swaying back and forth in tandem…
Hillary’s guy stood like a rock. He almost resembles a bodyguard. Very interesting.
Edward’s guy, and Obama’s guy look like people I could comfortably have a semi-candid conversation with.
Hillary’s guy, reminds me of Ari Fleisher. His mind is going a thousand miles a minute, and his answers are measured and relatively infrequent, but his body is not moving. Interesting.
Light travels faster than sound. We read “action” before we read “sound”. Acting 101.
I have no conclusion exactly. Hillary has surrounded herself with “strength”. The others have surrounded themselves with “emotion”.
solai @ 184
Well we FDLers come down pretty hard on the uninformed. Don’t we?
solai @ 9
No.
Thanks for this edition of short answers…. :)
mui @ 180
It could be worse. I once said Hillary looked beautiful. You would have thought I had just decapitated a kitty.
mui @ 180
(((Mui)))
I only began to really learn about his achievements recently too. No biggy.
solai @ 9
We can trust Hillary to continue not being candid.
solai @ 188
Sometimes she looks very beautiful.
smapdi @ 182
Damn you!! I just spewed my beer on my keyboard!
Siun @ 60
i’m supporting Sen. Dodd – was very impressed with him at YK2. 25 years of experience and bilingual is not to be sneezed at.
solai @ 188
I could say Joe Biden is handsome (not true). But alas Kirk Murphy is here and will bring up the hair plugs.
BTW What an arrogant jerk Biden was tonight.
Richardson’s line about ‘I’m proud to continue to take your money.’ was met with a loud groan of derision. I saw so many muffed lines in that debate. I wish more of them could come out, hit their mark and deliver their line ala Spencer Tracy.
UUf. Terry MCauliffe up.
LS @ 189
Merci *wiping tear from corner of eye* You are too kind.
When Clinton was President, I was never afraid like I am now. I didn’t like NAFTA, and now the fruits of that have “evolved”, and even Hillary says it is not working.
Jeesus, I just heard Tweety say, “you have a candidate that is extremely attractive”..he needs to get laid.
When we pick our favorite we can’t help but to factor in ‘electability’. That’s why Kucinich does poorly. For whatever reason, he doesn’t seem electable. Well, I always thought of Dodd that way, too. But lately, he’s everywhere and becoming more recognizable. So, do any of you think he’s electable. Because, I’m really beginning to like him. Of course, all my money thus far has gone to Edwards. But I could support Dodd.
mui @ 194
I think Biden is a handsome man.
in reference to the post uptop——
i have to say this, i used to work for the phone company………there was legal, and there was illegal….and it was a very defined line…..there was company policy and there was you better do what you are told………but there was NEVER a doubt about what was right……..i had to work in pete rose’s neighborhood for weeks, literally in front of his house, and he came out and asked me what i was doing there, when his gambling was going on, at the same time, there was a big thing going on in cincinnati about wiretaps…quite a few happening then…….i took the heat for it…….and i was a lowly outside craft person……..everyone in the neighborhood thought i was wiretapping them……no, unless i accidentally hooked into their conversations while trying to call into the office for a test or to tell them about my next repair order……….
the things that are going on now are far removed from the people that work there………..and i have to say, i find it hard to believe that any of it impacts any of us directly………
that being said, computers can do a lot……….i said repeatedly after 911, that a mere voice print picked up by satellite could locate osama bin laden, and how we didn’t know where he was was a bunch of bullshit……voiceprints are easy……old technology……..there’s no way we didn’t know where he was……….
and fisa……..fishin’ for a mission……..fishin’ for substance……..cuz they lost the ball of using the technology they already had, and they’ve figured out how to not use it………duh……….so, they want to track interactions to match up a pattern, because he has dropped out of sight….and now they want to use fisa to track people…..that will lead nowhere……..the second bananas, they dropped the ball, they had him with technology that was already in place and they blew it……….
with 50 % of americans for impeachment, kucinich was silly to not have listed his HR333 to impeach cheney when he was asked about his legislative contributions to the current session. other than that, i believe he did the most to attract gains tonight and could be declared to have come out on top tonight.
very surprised that olbermann did not broach the subjects of impeachment or FISA, and instead wasted the last q on whether the campaigning season is too long. this is the one msm media personality to have covered the voting result irregularities, the hate-filled rightwingers like orielly, the criminality of this administration….-he has even called for them to resign, and yet he wasted the last q on something that could have been asked of the candidates anytime.
biden really pissed off people by not directly answering the FIRST audience q from the labor community; -he just had to go back to rehash a point. obama consistently burned up way too much clock, hillary didn’t really shake her tag of corporate-funded. richardson dawdled. edwards had less ‘negatives’ than all but dennis tonight, but i’m surprised that he didn’t hit a few more homeruns, especially in his response to being a trial lawyer. (he should have hammered away that we are a society of laws and through the courts is how you enforce those laws and fight the corporations.)
not as good for the candidates in some respects as some of the other debates, but they still make mincemeat out of the republican field. but who’s kidding who? the republicans have not won a presidential election since 1988; they’ve only stolen them and robbed the will of the american people with the help of a complicit msm.
one would hope this moves kucinich into the mid-level tier, with dodd, richardson and biden slipping some, but we’ll see. some very powerful q’s from the audience tonight.
Kathryn in MA @ 193
I am thinking of supporting Dodd, not cause he’ll win. But I want him to give other candidates a run for their money.
Tweety: She is a veteran of the war against the right-wing. That is, indeed, true.
jayt @ 44
So true!
How, exactly, is someone “alleged to have assisted our Nation”? I realize that English is not George’s native language, but this is twisted syntax even for him. For a gang who claim to be doing nothing wrong, they sure spend a lot of time trying to cover their collective asses.
it’s official! Edwards lost!
Cause’ Matthews said so.
Idiot
Boy Hilliary sure had some help from Dodd & Biden tonight. They were going after Obama and Edwards. Do you suppose they’ve already been promised cabinet positions?
I really cringed when Hilliary said – “I’m your girl”. YUCK! All those years of trying to keep people from referring to adult women as girls and she goes and claims the title. YUCK. Say it isn’t so Hillary.
Just getting in, and missed the debate…Some one tell me if Edwards did well, overall?
John Edwards/Wesley Clark ‘08.
Cozumel @ 205
I second that!
Cozumel @ 205
Let me guess. Hillary’s “majesty” won the day (even though I could have sworn she turned green x3 when KO asked her about her lobbyist money.)
Looking at Tenet and the pleas for protection remind me of the bad movie since 2000..from one awful event to the next. I thought the election was to make things start looking better. That said, much of talk radion (AA) was saying that the hard hits will come after the folks come back; that this bill was bad and the timing was bad but can be corrected. Esp. given the noise about danger and threats. Do we still have any hope?
To rant a bit “your girl” is ridiculous; I am also exhausted with terrorist talk. It is a way of building fear and confusion without informing or adding to the conversation (As if W could). I think the conversation and the goals could be put forward using a different language. We = Homeland; They = Terr’ists. Surely the discussion deserves better. I am surprised “aiding the terr’ists” has not been thrown into the reasons for flunking Katrina. Our newspaper today had a column with a Latino writter talking about how completely most Latino groups have turned on Gonzales after the earlier joy for one of their own. Quite poignant and strong and honest that they would speak out against so much deceit and incompetences. The truth is very powerful, so one more place where truth has taken hold and speaking out.
dmac @ 200
He is the ace. They will play him when the time is right. They know exactly where he is. Actionable to W probably means, when he says “play it”. Or…he’s dead. We are dealing with Rove/Goebbling.
In one of the debates, the question was asked about an English-only law (or something equally stupid). Dodd jumped all over that. Said we needed to learn more languages in this country. He made sense. He didn’t mince words. He didn’t just say that that would be hard for immigrants blah,blah,blah. He turned it around and said that this American aversion to foreign languages was ridiculous and was hurting America. I liked that answer.
solai @ 183
Glad to see someone else HATED what she said. I actually winced when she said it.
So..which of those candidates is going to hold the Bush/Cheney Administration legally accountable for destroying Iraq and using Nazi terminology to describe the United States of America as the “Homeland”? I am so furious about that.
Huh?
RonD @ 207
Yes, very well. Matthews said he couldn’t outdo Kucinich on labor issues so he lost his advantage there. And he did have a couple of jabs thrown at him. But then…..a man with braces on his arm talked about not being able to afford health insurance. And Edwards hit one out of the park.
I want to hear a “debate” on torture and FISA.
BigMitch @ 114
He was also a ringer on the panel discussion because he is already a Hiliary supporter.
LS @ 216
Me too!
Kind of screwed up didn’t they? They should have kept the amnesty for the anti-american perps (peeps?) in the legislation. The Dems would have still buckled.
Hey AT&T, do you really think these incompetent bumblers are going to deliver what they told you they would?
TeddySanFran @ 18
He is going after Edwards & Obama because he wants to be Secretary of Defense in a Clinton administration. I think he knows he won’t win the nomination so he is now shooting for Sec. of Defense. I guess we will know for sure if he continues to keep going after Edwards & Obama in the upcoming debates.
solai @ 212
Support him then. Maybe he and Edwards can beat Hillary/Obama in tandem. I think Dodd is sincere on that question. Ned Lamont was pretty much the same on that issue as well and I think Ned supports Dodd, as does some of Lamont’s old crew. To me being from CT, that is an endorsement indeed, although I always considered Dodd old school and his former “friendship” with Lieberman (who he disagreed with often) lethal. I am slowly liking Dodd better and better.
Thanks, Solai.
Why wouldn’t Biden wouldn’t want to stay in the Senate?
Sad to say Jane but Tenet was promoted and appointed by the Clintons. Tenet was perfect for Bush, a frat boy at heart, an asskisser par excellence and someone who was in way over his big head. The Clintons bear the responsibility for Tenet and with them again, we have will have more self serving careerists in positions of importance.
Frank33 @ 62
That investigation went very cold but I heard from somewhere that it all got closed down after they traced it to a Pentagon controlled lab. No links.
Why do we call the Anthrax thing terrorist? Because it is mean, sneaky? I really do not know how the definition applies. I think it is a word that magnifies everything. Is every treat to do harm terroristic? In contrast to a prank?
BHatten @ 225
Because of all the punditry the world had to listen through about ‘weaponisation’.
Sona, Thanks. Now I understand.
I know we have concerns about education in this country, but I think there is some way W has mangled our common language. I knew people who completely hated Pres. Clinton but would generously talk about how smart he was/could speak. I guess W was born with Alcohol syndrome or is ADD (who knows) and then I think he exaggerates the way he screws the language. Sorry. I should not get started.
Isn’t immunity after the fact an ex post facto law and therefore unconstitutional. Or does the principal only apply to making laws which would make a formerly leagal act illegal? Not forgiving past lawbreaking?
Seems to me it should work both ways. Not that there is any jeopardy for these guys in the US. The biggest dust ups will be when international courts and tribunals try to snag Americans. No way that will happen either. If a Democratic administration gave up an American to an international court the guns would come out.
The interesting thing is that what the Bush administration is demanding of Congress, giving retroactive “amnesty” to all the big-name (and small crony-run) U.S. companies that conducted criminal surveillance of U.S. citizens, PROVES that these companies were involved in illegal activities.
Well, why else would BushCo be demanding such a get-out-of-jail-free provision? If these companies hadn’t been doing anything illegal, or even remotely illegal, then BushCo wouldn’t be pushing the passage of this “amnesty” provision, would they?
LS @ 197
He may not have been referring to Hillary!
RickG @ 104
Actually, Ken, your fundamental duty as a US senator is to the oath you swore to defend *the Constitution* against all enemies foreign and domestic. Didn’t you get the memo?
This fuckhead is my senator too, unfortunately.
sona @ 226
The Anthrax attacks were called “terrorist” because they appeared intended to sow fear in the public mind by attacking fairly prominent media and government officials. Recall that the attacks actually did kill several people. The Anthrax was dessiminated through the public mails…meaning random people could have been victimized (and apparently were).
When you have to shut down Congress for a week, and several Democratic leaders are targetted…that’s serious.
It was NOT a “prank”…the attacks were very real…even if the actual Anthrax spores were not as virulent or able to spread through the atmosphere as quickly as had been originally been suggested.
That said, the FBI did little to defuse the hysteria when they learned that the spores were not weaponized, and were not of a type “only available from Iraq”, etc. There was likely good “political” reasons for keeping THAT drum beating…as well as NOT actually doing anything towrads finding those who actually threatened our leadership (Pat Leahey was one of those targetted I recall).
rapier @ 228
Ex post facto can, indeed, only occur if an individual is exposed to greater jeopardy for an act committed before a law was broken. It doesn’t work the other way. If a law is changed because it is determined as “unfair” or “unjust” all those that have prosecuted and convicted for such crimes have their sentences remitted.
To me this principle makes perfect sense. Where I have real problems is the awarding of pardons before the individual has actually been tried and convicted (a pardon suggests guilt even when the Court may find the individual innocent…I would think that something like this should be issued only when the Executive finds clear evidence of Judicial Malfeasance in the trial). In addition I have real issues with a certain type of “blanket pardon”. This is when an individual or group is “pardoned” for unspecified crimes.
Does the Executive really mean that he is enabling someone to walk away from crimes that he is absolutely unaware of? Child molestation? Murder? Treason? Smuggling narcotics out in dead soldiers bodies? That the pardon is valid for ALL POSSIBLE CRIMINAL ACTS? Well so much for the concept of “equal justice under law”.
In my view an Executive should be required to specify the Criminal Acts that the pardon covers.
Because this in no way limits or restricts the President from giving those pardons, this is likely Constitutional. He simply has to define what the pardons are for and who is covered. If he is pardoning people for “torture” he should be compelled to say so. If he is pardoning people for “domestic espionage” against US Citizens, hear too this should be required in any pardon.
It simply makes sense…as a future Justice Department and the Courts need precise guidance as to the INTENT and bounds of any pardon.
FISA bill: Some of my European friends have encountered technical problems with their photostream.
Richmond @ 15
One of the typical things that irks me when I see a general election and one guy is just slamming the other one to the mat over and over is “WHY wasn’t the dufus candidate revealed during the primary?” I think all the serious debate among Dems will help us pick the best candidate for their ideas and character and leadership (at least in theory). But, I fear it could be really nasty during the general election when question quite different than we’re now discussing will be asked — thrown at a candidate is more like it.
Repubs hurl feces really well and we need to begin considering how a candidate is going to face some rather obvious attacks and questions.
Could Gravel (for example) face questions about being out of politics since the ’70s?
Could Dodd face questions about his support for certain corporate interests the Repubs would be certain to investigate?
We Dems don’t look for dirt during a primary, but the Repubs would definitely do it in the general election campaign.
puppethead @ 38
The problem is that everybody panders to the Education “issue”, but nobody has a terrific answer. Hillary should be careful to stop stepping on that landmine.
I mean, we obviously support publicly funded education for everybody and we support aid to underfunded schools and we support fact-based education rather than faith-based crap. But, beyond that what should we call for?
With the recent SCOTUS ruling taking away efforts to integrate there should be an entre to the issue which would differentiate Dems and Repubs quite well.
Dems support equalized funding for kids (all the SC might allow for now) and integration (SC doesn’t like) to unite our people and to further education of kids about the world around them.
Repubs cringe at the thought of any of that.
The big question is HOW to achieve the integration while pugs control SCOTUS. I wish Roberts good health, but I do wish he’d stop playing in the sandbox with Repubs and stick to the Law.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
Generally I agree. He just doesn’t seem to sparkle in the eyes of the public. Maybe Veep…maybe just great senator.
Steve-AR @ 75
We’re trying to select a President, not another senator. It’s entirely different.
Hillary’s experience in the WH is probably a big plus, but it’s hard to know for certain. It’s hard to tell how much she participated and there was all that push-back against the Starr chamber. It might not have been the best experience of her life.
Anyway, we’ve broken through a lot of that and the Repubs are pretty well deflated, at least for a while.
I think we can’t completely discount the Repub slime machine with their wealth of knowledge about Hillary, but it still seems likely our next president will have it much easier than did Bill Clinton.
Neil @ 101
To have Rights you have to be a person and don’t you have to have been born in America or Naturalized to be a Person?
Corporate Personhood just ain’t natural!
OTOH, being a person living in Washington DC and not getting to vote for President is definitely unnatural.
Cozumel @ 205
Maybe Edwards should volunteer to go on Hardball to show up Tweety.
BHatten @ 225
Because it took aim at civilians and though it wasn’t likely to really kill it did instill terror in some people. It terrorized them.