For those who haven’t lost interest in democracy (41 House Democrats need not raise their hands), Matt Stoller has been engaged in a discussion with people from the ACLU about just what went wrong with the FISA bill. Basically, the Democrats seem to have gotten punk’d like they always do. BushCo. appoints some “new guy” who’s going to come in and save the day (in this case, Director of Intelligence Admiral Mike McConnell) who proceeds to make a deal with them and then betrays them.
Read Matt’s whole post, but much like the Dodd interview of yesterday regarding the Senate passage of the Military Commissions Act, the new FISA bill made its way through because of poor planning and downright bungling:
House leaders put the ‘good bill’ on the suspension calendar, which is a specific track for non-controversial legislation that requires a two thirds vote. Suspension calendar bills are often about things like naming post offices, and bills on this track do not go to the floor for amendments and debate. I asked a contact why this bill went on the suspension calendar, and she told me it’s because there had been no hearings on the bill so it couldn’t go to the floor (though she is going to get more information from a staffer who knows more about rules). McConnell, prodded by Bush, double-crossed the Democrats, and withdrew his support for the good bill, which then went down to defeat on the suspension calendar. Normally, the Senate’s awful bill and the House’s more reasonable one would be mashed together in conference, but in this case the Senate had already gone home. In other words, this was a procedural blunder. As a rule, you do not lose procedural fights like this in the House, as a friend told me it’s like ‘walking the pitcher’. The good bill should have been brought to the floor, but it was not. The whip operation, run by Clyburn, and the floor manager, Hoyer, failed to manage this properly.
That’s it. We now live in a virtual police state because the Democratic leadership screwed up.
Liberal groups, as Caroline noted, were cut out of the process by liberal leaders and Blue Dogs alike. House and Senate leaders trusted Bush, who of course double-crossed them, and trusted Mike McConnell, who is appointed by Bush as a Colin Powell-type respectable military man. And then, to add insult to injury, they rushed a complicated bill through out of fear of criticism by George Bush, the man who lied to them and prevented a FISA fix.
You have to wonder how many times they’re going to pull the football away before the Democrats get wise to the game. I realize they live in fear of being defeated in 2008 and don’t want to do anything to rock the boat, but aside from the moral argument — it really is their job to see that this stuff does not happen — the idea that standing up to George Bush on warrantless wiretapping is going to make them unpopular is patently absurd. As Glenn Greenwald has noted, that’s the argument Karl Rove tried to make before the 2006 elections and the Republicans got slaughtered. Those who tried to make it campaign issues like Nancy Johnson were hammered into humiliating defeat.
Matt says the blame for this fiasco lies at the feet of Hoyer, Clyburn, Emanuel, Pelosi and Reid. Since it’s August and these people are going to be back in their districts at some point for Town Hall meetings and other public events, it would be a great time (as Christy has noted) for people to show up and express their discontent with what happened. It’s not easy to find announcements of these events, but I did manage to find this one:
Senator Reid in Pahrump, Town Hall Meeting: Aug 15th
Senator Harry Reid will be in Pahrump Wednesday, August 15, 11:30 am till 1 pm. At the Bob Ruud Community Center, Highway 160 and Basin Street. Senator Harry Reid is scheduled for a Town Hall meeting.
If anyone can locate public events that Hoyer, Clyburn, Emanuel, Pelosi or Reid are going to be at, please leave them in the comments so that we can announce them. It would be great for people to organize Roots actions to go and pay their respects.
This one left a mark.
Related posts:
- Schumer Raises the Stakes: If Final Bill Has No Public Option, Blame Harry Reid
- Hey, Harry Reid, Stop Protecting Democrats Who Want to Filibuster the Public Option
- Teabaggers Attacking Democrats: Welcome to the Steny Show
- Steny Hoyer: “Public Option May Have to Go” for Health Bill Passage
- Nevada Phone Bank Tool for Harry Reid and Public Option Now Live





Spotlight
ha
Does one say “zed” in this instance?
Doh! I guess not.
SufiLizard @ 2
“One” says ha because “one” doesn’t like zed!
Hey Jane, hope you are well.
hey, I thought I was talking to myself downstairs.
BigMitch @ 6
There you go again.
Single digits. Hugs to Jane and apologies to Kobe. Our long lost of last January found its way home to the bank afte six months.
SufiLizard @ 2
one says ‘two’
I don’t understand why they don’t understand who they are dealing with. They seem so clueless.
I’ve had it with them – stupid is as stupid does.
I only hope the smart ones like Leahey…nail the warmongers.
hey raven, epu’d from downstairs;
perris @ 157
they were talking about the conduct of the war as much as rumsfeld and is administration of our armed forces
mack @ 9
One says two, but why is six afraid of seven? Because seven ate nine.
so,
When I looked at the vote and saw Rahm was a ‘nay’ I didn’t think through to the part where he has some responsibility as a leader.
(ya know, using Rahm and leader in the same sentence is just wrong)
WIll look for his next meet and greet at the Jewels
President Bush is coming to Bellevue, WA on August 27 for a fundraiser for Representative Fourth Reichert. How much you wanna bet I’ll be there protesting?
I don’t believe this for a second. This was deliberate. You will never convince me that Steny Hoyer just dropped the ball, and nobody noticed. This bill was too prominent, too contentious.
Who are you?
The new Number Two.
Who is Number One?”
You are Number Six
I am not a number — I am a free man!
Yeah, Seamus. Methinks Stony is cut from the Lieberman cloth. But then I’m paranoid and a DFH……..
You would think that the Democrats would have learned from their experiences with Rove and Bush and Cheney that you don’t give them what they ask for, because next time they’ll ask for more. Also they should have learned to count their fingers and check the contents of their wallets after shaking hands with anyone from Bushco.
I’d like to know what’s in the air and water systems in the Capitol. It sure seems to dumb down a lot of people.
mack @ 9
Yeah, I see that I wasn’t first. I have to admit, when I first discovered this site a couple weeks ago, I thought the race to be first to comment was kind of juvenile.
But wouldn’t you know when I thought I had the chance to be first, I jumped right on it.
at this stage you have to question the wisdom of ANYBODY that enables this adminstration.
That sums it up right there. If that’s the best the Democratic leadership can do, then they are useless.
Hmmm…looked like footage from YKOS on CNN…Hillary in that turquoise jacket.
Some how my comment disappeared
mack @ 16
Yes! I guess I’m not the only one who uses that quote from The Prisoner on occasion.
(Wasn’t that the name of the program?)
Warrantless wire-tapping WAS illegal
Boneheads.
perris @ 11
I surrendered down there. I’m still taking about some one on active duty but I get the point.
SufiLizard @ 20
Welcome to FDL! Where adults get to have thought provoking virtual conversations AND act like children all at the same time. ;})
I love the illustration chosen for this post — just perfect.
Who are they kidding? With a 2/3 majority needed there is nothing given about the outcome. The Democrats should have stuck to their guns and their bill in the House and expedited it as much as possible. Yes, they blew it but the real sellout was in the Senate. The Senate passed the Republican version of the bill under the inept leadership of Harry Reid. He then adjourned the chamber dumping the mess in the House’s lap. Way to go, Harry. Then Pelosi et al proceeded to make matters worse. All of this was eminently foreseeable and was in fact foreseen. Reid and Pelosi knew exactly what they were doing. They just didn’t expect to be called on it by us in the blogosphere.
carolyn urban @ 21
They also trusted McConnell, DNI, and he has used up his “fool me once, shame on you” card. (SecDef Gates used that up during Contragate.)
Anyone see something wrong with this picture?
Suddenly, they’re making Gonzo look downright sharp.
BigMitch @ 12
that’s my favorite riddle
LS @ 26
I’m trying to put myself in the Senator’s place. But I can’t do it. The mind reels.
So I ditto LS.
CWBaris @ 25
You can’t make something legal with an unconstitutional statute.
With the Repugs, we’ve had a “Culture of Criminality”.
With the Democrats, we have a “Culture of Cowardice”.
Those are some great choices, ain’t they voters?
dakine01 @ 29
I like it too but none of that zed shit for me!
BigMitch @ 36
you can with this SCOTUS.
How can this all be fixed? Forget six-months.
TiredFed @ 38
sad but true
BigMitch @ 31
Look they have only been lied to and double crossed by this Administration for the last 6 years. Too early to discern a pattern.
BigMitch @ 36
You’ve have responses in EPU land…
mui @ 39
In Froomkin today, there was a brief note saying that surveillance begun before the 6 month sunset can continue for up to a year.
TiredFed @ 38
Ugh. And that’s the sad truth. Democracy has slipped through our fingers.
Torches and pitchforks anyone?
TiredFed @ 38
Point taken. Now I want to cry.
raven @ 28
OK, one more. I read the article and I keep up with this stuff. Nowhere does it say anyone retired or resigned to do this. I think it’s great they spoke up but if they had retired or resigned in protest they would have said so. Am I being stubborn here?
Hugh @ 44
Sh*t I’m so deppressed.
raven @ 37
At least our kind of childish doesn’t get people killed like the “I’ll hold my breath until my face turns blue” childishness of the Bush Crime Family.
And what’s up with that zed “shit” anyway? I know in Canada, that’s how they pronounce the letter ‘z’.
I called Sen Bob Casey from PA yesterday to ask why he voted to give Bush even more authority to destroy this country. An aide said that Casey was waiting for “cooler heads to prevail”. I was furious at this. I said I didn’t want cooler heads…I wanted OUTRAGE..If he didn’t know what was at stake he should not be a Senator. I said Santorum would have voted the same way as Casey and if I had know Casey would be like this I would never had had a Casey bumper sticker on my car. I implored the aide to tell Casey to read the Constitution and uphold the oath he swore. And then I asked what was Casey doing about restoring habeus corpus? These people are disgusting.
I don’t see how attempting to change the legislation “after recess” will fly. They’ll screw up and get shot down again. They should try, but I’m sure not holding my breath. For awhile I thought she was being cunning and slick and might pull something off. My impression is that she thought she could schmooze her way and flirt her way, and I really don’t like the way she operates. Cindy Sheehan should run against her. She would not have backed down or negotiated over any of these issues. Reid is…sad to say, hopeless.
raven @ 27
check this out raven, I khow it’s not what you’re looking for but I think you’ll get a kick out of it anyway
Find me Rahm, I’ll definitely go see him.
I looked at his site and it said nothing.
SufiLizard @ 48
In earlier versions of wordpress (the blog software), when the first comment showed after getting to the thread, it displayed as comment zero/”0″, hence the “zed”
Alice B @ 50
“Waiting for cooler heads to prevail.” ??!? what does that mean?
Alice B @ 50
WTF?!?!?! OK, that almost made my head explode.
Yea, I was watching that. He makes me crazy, Drug Czar and all around expert on everything in nthe world.
mack @ 13
Rahm was been quoted yesterday in the NYT that this “FISA Surrender Bill” was so screwed up, that when he returns from vacation, he’s gonna make sure they fix things by October.
Hmmm…Rahm seems to forget that Junya “vetoes” everything the Democrats try to put into law, and with no means to override the veto, just how was Rahm intending to sell this piggy?
So what happens is that Junya will use his “Executive Powers” to “extend” the existing “FISA Surrender Bill” ad infinitum or until the end of his term, whichever comes later.
My what a great big “Strategist” you are Rahm. Feckin’ NOT!
Nola Sue @ 55
that’s what I meant to say.
This whole Democratic Party cave-in has truly affected me in ways I couldn’t imagine before last weekend. I have this empty-gut feeling like I have no representation in this democracy.
I don’t believe that the Democrats will ever put on the brakes against the shitstorm coming from Bush. I don’t see anyone standing in the way of another illegal invasion of a sovereign country.
It makes no logical sense what went down last Saturday. I can’t even imagine why a majority party would allow passage of this crap. It is to the point where I question my own sanity (especially since the vast majority of my friends and co-workers have no idea what went down).
If the 4th Amendment of our Constitution doesn’t merit a filibuster (and all of the other parliamentary tools) in its defense, then I don’t know what there is left.
This weekend, I came to the realization that the Democratic powder will be dry forever. Nancy Pelosi wants me to hold my breath, while she and her colleagues go on vacation, and she promises to clean up the mess when they get back. Unreal.
“….was waiting for cooler heads to prevail”. Gotta keep that powder dry for later.
dakine01 @ 53
Wait till Christy is live blogging asks very nicely that people limit the bullshit one liners and “zed’s and Fitz’s” rain down.
Deja vu. I feel the same way I did after the 2004 election.
BigMitch @ 46
worse yet, they gave up on a major article of impeachment for Cheney; warrantless wiretapping is his baby.
Russ Feingold:
Not sure what Raven is saying at #57.
I tend to agree with the point attributed to Gen. McCaffrey, that unless something is doen the military is going to break from the strain of the next set of troop rotations, due in April ‘08. And further, that Congress ought to do something about it.
Something such as “impeachment.”
How many times can you believe someone who says, “I didn’t mean to beat you up, again. I won’t next time. I’ll do better. I’ll get some help. I’ll take anger management classes. Honest, dear.” The Democrats are codependents. They need more help than the Repugs.
Rahm is going to be down by Lake Michigan testing the water for BP contaminants.
There is one really smart, slick, constitutional expert who does not like what is happening, and that is Bruce Fein. He’s helping prepare impeachment papers for Gonzo.
I’d like to see him come up with something to undo the FISA debacle.
LS @ 69
Yeah I enjoyed watching him on Moyers. Apparently Howie’s New Blue Rep from TN, Cohen, finds him good too.
Hey… I live in Chicago, and will attend any event where I can speak to Ram Emanuel or any of the others.
Gen. Barry McCaffrey, another fraud.
Our congress basically has two choices then. Withdrawal or draft. I’m betting that unless Congress feels more pressure, they’ll suggest a draft.
Lucy pulls the football away after promising Charlie Brown she would let him kick it this time, and he beleives her, again!
It’s just what the (D) party does to anyone who beleives they’ll change anything for the better… time for energized, politically astute folks to take their rosy (D) glasses off and look for ways to get 3rd party candidates on the ballot, so you’ll have a choice when your (D) betrays their promises, again.
Mad Dogs @ 58-
This is apparently the spin coming out of Amy Klobuchar’s office, too. Here, from MN Campaign Report, is a statement she issued:
Sorry to keep harping on this, but I think Klobuchar’s vote is one of the biggest disappointments in this whole mess, and I really want to have a strong MN swing for Christy’s “summer tour.”
Several MN Firedogs have expressed interest in pulling together for this — anyone else out there, please contact me via facebook or at susank125 at hotmail.
Time to bang Molly’s pots & pans!!!
Casey Statement on FISA Votes
Monday, August 6, 2007
WASHINGTON, DC-Following the votes on the temporary FISA bills, U.S. Senator Bob Casey (D-PA) issued the following statement:
“I voted for both versions of the temporary FISA fix in order to ensure that U.S. intelligence has the tools they need to target terrorists while a larger review of the FISA law is conducted.
“The Bond-McConnell version supported by the White House is far from ideal and I deplore the tactics employed by the Bush Administration to push its agenda through the politics of fear.
“A thorough review when cooler heads can prevail is needed for a permanent FISA fix that keeps the United States safe from terrorists while also safeguarding the rights of American citizens.”
LS @ 67
It’s not just Fein, it’s folks like Jonathon Turley and most other Constitutional lawyers as well.
Fein has credibility purely because he was a deputy AG under Reagan.
BigMitch @ 65
It’s showing up as 56 on my screen. I’m sorry I didn’t complete my thought. He is right on this one but he still drives me nuts. All his bullshit on the “war on drugs” was just stupid. He also wiped out a retreating republican guard division after the truce was signed because, supposedly, one round was fired at his outfit.
cancer_cures @ 72
Yeah. They’ll probably concoct some “trick” bill that they think surely won’t pass, and then next thing you know there will be lottery numbers. If a draft gets started again, it will take years and years to stop it, if ever.
LS @ 69
I swear FISA wasn’t a debacle but deliberate. I think there are far more NeoCons lurking under the surface among Democrats than they acknowledge.
Lahoma and I say we are pleased to know we aren’t the only ones just about fed up with our party, the Democratic Party. (fisa,etc.)
Time for the pitch forks.
Throw ALL THE BUMS OUT
Regime change for america
Constitutional convention NOW
What a bunch of incompetant slackers.
cancer_cures @ 72
And it will be blamed on Democrats so Bush gets his infinite war and Democrats suffer the political ramifications of it.
Talk about your “teflon Don.”
And none of this would have been possible without a Democratic congress almost inept enough to qualify for Bush political appointments.
Even a modicum of backbone would have been enough to stop the worst abuses, but I guess that was too much to hope for from these invertebrates.
LS @ 69
Now that’s a Big Idea. Hmmmm….
let me make a point about allowing the president to spy on people conucting bussiness outside the us
that means everyone
that’s right, everone…once you go on the internet it is international
and once the seal is broken, the protocol is met and the adminsitration will use that to justify stealing everyone’s information everywhere, not only the internet
this cave is bizzarre
How did a GOP bill even get to the floor? We can’t get no Dem Bill to the floor with out a filibuster.
been reading congressional records and rules today and just spent 35 minutes on the phone with an extremely helpful house rules committee aide – who attempted to explain to me in excruciating detail what went down last week.
it is not pretty – and as jane says… i think responsibility for this one lies with the house (and senate) leadership.
i wouldn’t have posted any comment yet, but thought i should at least let everyone know that i have been following up today with the conversations we’ve all been having in the comments – many thanks to everyone – especially pow wow (see here and here).
will add more at the bottom of this thread after i get my notes together and and read matt’s post.
Hre’s my letter to my Sen. Bill Nelson-
Dear Senator Nelson:
You work for me, so I’ve been watching you work. You should be ashamed of yourself for voting for the Bush Administration’s so-called “Protect America Act” regarding FISA “reforms.” It was a bill rushed through to a vote without public hearings and public involvement. Did you read it before you voted? It was a bill crafted by the White House, squelching basic American freedoms and giving the Executive Branch completely unfettered power to spy on Americans with no accountability. You caved in to the White House’s insistence that unchecked spying on Americans is somehow required to fight terrorism, when we all know that supplanting hundreds of years of sound constitutional protections for the public relations delusion of anti-terrorism is short-sighted and totally ineffective.
You should also be ashamed of yourself to be the only Democratic Senator on the Senate Intelligence Comm. to vote with the Republicans on May 23, against the proposal barring spending on the CIA’s Secret interrogation program for “terrorists” and on interrogation techniques that go beyond the Army Field Manual’s banning physical pressure or pain. Under this Democratic proposal, the only exception would have been when the president determined “that an individual has information about a specific and imminent threat,” and those types of threats were specifically detailed. But you voted with the Republicans then too. Your “no” vote is on this proposal is inexplicable.
All of the expert evidence before you already demonstrates that torture as an intelligence tactic simply doesn’t work effectively; it endangers our military, it damages our international prestige and it undermines our national interests. And beyond all of that, you certainly shouldn’t need me to point out the fundamental fact that it is immoral and beneath us as Americans and as sentient human beings.
As your constituent, I’m ashamed that in making these votes you purport to represent me and my values. You don’t. I’m now going to work very hard to make sure that the Democratic Senator from Florida will. Unless you shape up and start putting America’s interests over your own insecurities, you’re fired. It may take several years for me and the rest of the Democrats of Florida to get you to clear out our Democratic Senator’s desk, but for the love of America, please try not to do too much more damage on your way out.
Sincerely,
Otis
dakine01 @ 76
You are right. Turley is great. Fein seems like he can really be a prick, but it’s good to have a prick on your side in situations like this, that was my meaning.
jim oconnor @ 71
From the wikipedia
Good lord Dems. This is your moment and you’re blowing it.
Elliott @ 59 — Great minds. I’m always late, usually EPU’d. ;)
selise @ 86
thanks selise!
Show us the terrorists…
Where are the convictions?
What a bunch of rubbish. Complete fear mongering and caving in like girlymen, to quote Ahnold.
Aren’t these pols dispicable?
I kinda have the urge to run over to Pelosi and Reid and say, NO…don’t try to do anything..move out of the way, and let somebody smart and tough deal with these guys…move along…go have a cocktail…whatever…just get out of the way.
Alice B @ 86
It’s the dementors. We need to send a few boxes of dark chocolate to congress to ward them off. They can’t seem to do it by themselves.
Selise at 85: Why am I expecting to learn how McGovern #@&*ed us again on the Rules.
SufiLizard @ 20
I hang my head in shame. Same here. ARGH. :-)
Passage of this law is yet another reason why Gonzales must be impeached. The AG is half of the oversight in the law. Get another AG in there.
The people want change Democrats. What the heck does it take?
retirin’ in five @ 17
He and Emmanuel and Schumer and Lieberman. Same cloth. Same insanity. Same sell out of this country.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 98
That is surely the first move to fix this thing. Get him out, and don’t confirm another one during the rest of the term.
SeamusD @ 15
You know Bushco has been willing to get blamed for incompetence to avoid being labeld as mendacious.
Maybe Shrub taught this technique to Pelosi during their little dinner party?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 99
more pressure, more postcards, more presence.
LS @ 95
They should quit as respective heads.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 99
Perhaps a shadow Democratic Party. Get on your local ballots for primary races as a Democrat, but promote yourself as an “Independent Democrat” or a “Constitutional Democrat” or something.
We need to infiltrate the party and take it back from the spineless Charlie Browns.
Where the hell is Larry Flynt!!!!
Call me cynical but I’m not buying it anymore
Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi wanted it to pass. And get ready for another Friedman Unit for Iraq because they’re going to pass a new supplemental for that as well
Raven @ 88: You say McCaffrey was cleared by an Army investigation? Oh never mind then.
SufiLizard @ 105
Infiltrate the Repubs too.
LS @ 107
LOL – well, not really. Yaaaa. Get going!
LS @ 10
I tend to think Leahey will be encumbered by worrying about sho it really was who sent him anthrax.
jim oconnor @ 109
So was the Battalion Commander of Lt Calley’s outfit.
LS @ 101
You know, it’s like we need to storm the Department of Justice to restore her integrity.
Nola Sue @ 75
Just me and my tinfoil hat guessing here, but I think our junior Senator got a “deal” on the replacement I35W Bridge in return for her vote on the “FISA Surrender Bill”
Now we’ll always know her as Amy “A Bridge Too Far!” Klobuchar.
selise @ 87
Bless you. You rock Selise. I don’t envy having to study the rules part. Not my forte in government docs.
Hugh @ 42
Who could have predicted …?
Richmond @ 101
Absolutely no question that you are correct. Schumer further proves this with his vehement opposition to his beloved freetrade pacts when it’s affecting his Wall Street paymasters (er sorry funders)
The NeoCons run both parties.
cancer_cures @ 73
I am okay with a draft.
I wrote in Fuck the Draft:
In the past, we needed to institute a draft to protect us from the Fascism of the Axis powers. Later, we imposed a draft in the vain belief that we needed it to protect us from the totalitarianism of Chinese Communism and Soviet world domination.
Now, as Charlie Rangel argues, we may need to institute a draft to protect us from American fascism. He’s got a point there.
“… and tell ’em Big Mitch sent ya!”
However, after I heard that Iraqi doctor (Maryam) live blogging here, I changed my mind. I think that we need a military that reflects a cross section of American values.
LS @ 100
I’m still somewhat dumbfounded by the critters who have co-sponsored an Impeach Abu bill yet voted for the FISA bill giving Abu “Trust Me” powers.
Yup and what do you think of Murtha and all of his budget inserts. The Rethugs obviously have something big on it and exchanged local riches for our national interests. Shame on him too.
BigMitch @ 120
However, after I heard that Iraqi doctor (Maryam) live blogging here, I changed my mind. I think that we need a military that reflects a cross section of American values.
Mitch are you really Big?
Rove and Lieberman are laughing.
selise @ 87
I think the aides inside the leadership should be scrutinized. Are they GOP plants? I relay a call I made to the DNC and talked to someone about how the Dems could prevent another election being stolen. He proceeded to argue with me after I stated exit polls were more reliable than pre-election polls. After further discussion and arguing I stated that he sounded like a Republican. He answered,” and what is wrong with that?” Can you believe it. I called a number of Dems to tell of this. What if anything every happened is unknown to me.
raven @ 78
100% agreement re: War on Drugs. 99% agreement on your implied view re wiping out republican guard division. 1% War is hell.
Mad Dogs @ 114
Sounds plausible. They put that $200,000,000 through right then.
hehe. I think my congresscritter (Davis CA-53) must be getting a lot of flack over the FISA vote. She just put up a press release on her House website trumpeting her No vote. btw, Davis’ war withdrawal/deauth poll is still up, if anybody wants to take it. house.gov/susandavis
BigMitch @ 119
But if we had a draft now, it would bring this war to an end.
But I agree, I don’t want conscription.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 124
No Lieberman has a smug sanctimonious smirk on his face. He’s lapping it up like he’s a superstar fielding congratulatory calls from ChimpCO. What he loves most is adoration– as we all do– but his condition is quite pathological. *smoooch*
perris @ 52
And now the military is looking to the Dems for help too & they’ll be outta luck too, just like us.
Any word on Sen Boxer’s conspicuous silence yet?
Alice B @ 125
Look people like Emmanuel, Schumer, Hoyer and Lieberman in essence are Republicans. Not the rapture-right but just as willing to sell out for cash in the pocket – and then justify it as in our best interests!
QuakerGirl @ 119
Not true. Remember how Teddy got punked on no child left behind. It just happens . . .
BigMitch @ 126
Yea, I wasn’t a big fan of the Republican Guard, maybe if we’d kept going. . .
This article is NOT credible. Chris Floyd explains what’s really going on here: http://www.chris-floyd.com/Art…..Democrats/
I would only add that the main function of the Democrats seems to be to prevent a real opposition party from existing. And the Democrats DEPEND on the radical Republicans right to scare people into continuing to support the Dems.
What to do? I think that dealing with this problem is an urgent first priority. Most people who mention the problem seem to be content with schadenfreude. The fact that people who can’t admit this will never support a third party must be dealt with.
we have seen it too many times for it to be accidental. once the chicken clucks, and a panel of experts has determined that there is “no way” that it could be mistaken for a “quack”, we might lose our dignity supporting them any longer. After all, the difference is simple. Foghorn Leghorn does not look like Daffy Duck
cancer_cures @ 73
I’m not buying it either.
This is part of the correspondence from the ACLU to Matt Stoller. It sounds like they were trying to hide this bill from the public. Is there another way to read this?
And then there’s the fact that they hid it in the non-controversial section where no one would notice it.
And one last thought. I don’t think Harman ‘let it slip’. She may have been trying to warn us without doing so directly. But, that of course means that they were trying to hide it from the internet.
My rath boils over.
Froomkin links to Jane Mayer’s New Yorker article on our secret torture program. It sounds completely Nazi…..
Elliott @ 129
I’m for UNIVERSAL service. Not only military, rebuild the infrastructure all kinds of stuff we could do.
Go Alice. And Otis too.
Anyone remember the outrage when the wiretapping scandal first came out? Or how it disappeared in the fog of fear that the Bushies sprayed into the atmosphere?
The irony is that Democrats are scared of looking weak, but act weak to do it. Of course, they end up looking weak anyway.
mui @ 134
true, but you’d think these people could be learn to be quicker on their feet, and change their vote (despite any commitments) in the final floor rollcall, when they realize they’ve been had… I mean, how times do you have to get screwed before you start to at least try to stay awake on the job?
Hugh @ 31
I think you are wrong. They are more fearful of the Decider and Turd Blossom than they are of us. It shows again and again. Harry and Nancy just bend over and spread their cheeks for BushCo.
mui @ 65
Mistakes were made … who could have predicted …?
Elliott @ 128
It would not necessarily end the war at all. These guys would find a way to spin it. The sheeple might not bother to even come out in the streets for it…who knows. In fact, they would probably make it illegal to protest it. You would only be allowed to protest in free speech zones…oh, yeah…that’s already the way it is.
No draft.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 145
Now there’s a metaphor!
It’s not “bungling” when it’s deliberate, is it? The Dem “leadership” all know perfectly well what they’re doing.
The only real question about Democratic politicians of the past 10, 20, 30 years is this: Are they genuinely incompetent and cowardly? Or is their incompetence and cowardice really nothing more a smokescreen for complicity? This question is muddied by the fact that the fuckers have increasingly displayed genuine cowardice and incompetence galore ever since the Reagan Years…and possibly even earlier than that. But I tend to think they’re complicit.
At this rate, I can easily see President Hillary Clinton instituting a new draft…and then reacting with screaming, horrified outrage when the peasants don’t embrace that little plan with open arms.
I don’t read Leahy as a man who spends a lot of time worrying about his personal safety or about a reelection bid. He seems pretty focused on upholding the Constitution. Imagine that.
retirin in five says at 8-”Single digits. Hugs to Jane and apologies to Kobe. Our long lost of last January found its way home to the bank afte six months.”
if i’m understandin’ you correctly-your pet came home after six months????? congratulations!!!!!!! i had that happen, too……it was wonderful……a declawed cat that my sister nicknamed tucker the f@@ker……and i lived by a vet who did animal testing for p&g, he got animals wherever he could find them……so was scary…but tucker came home (named after the song ol dan tucker, he was rebel gray)….a friend and i helped put the vet out of business, proud to say…..he had an employee turn on him…..doncha love it…..
glad your ‘long lost’ came home……
Alice B @ 76
What cooler heads is Casey referring to?
mui @ 123
“Big” = generous of spirit, as in “That’s mighty big of you, Mitch.”
GeorgeSimian @ 142
They are weak, and they are boneheads.
fdl reader @ 131
Elliott @ 129
Not if there are exemptions and deferments. It will take years for objection to the draft to take affect. Bet the rich can still slip out and the middle class and poor are left in the trenches, again, as in every war. Even in the Civil War, if you paid $300 you avoided conscription in the Union Army so the rich never served. The grunts are forced to do the killing, face to face.
dmac @ 150
WOW! There is some good news!
LS @ 146
But once those Young College Republicans get the notice to report to the draft board, that tune they are all singing changes completely.
We are angry, and these two Democrats are going for a swim.
john in sacramento @ 108
The far right media machine has had their pumps primed. The rogues gallery just met with Bush.
Bush has set up the “it’s gonna be a tough August” line….
General Petreaus will of course offer an awe-shucks, things are tough but there’s a light at the end of the tunnel presentation.
These same pack of spineless jellyfish will run away from any Bush accountability.
They have also bought into the “if there’s an attack it must be because we aren’t represseive enough in America” trope hook, line and sinker.
The Charlie Brown pic is appropriate.
They are also too bone stupid to realize that it is the DLC/centrist wing of the Democratic Party that constantly makes the Democrats look disorganized and weak.
-GSD
BigMitch @ 152
Ahhhh!
mui @ 123
But, Oh Most Holy Milton Friedman said the draft was a bad and all those in power believed him.
fdl reader @ 131
Stuff the military. That jerkoff McCaffrey and the rest of his ilk were the type of idiots cheering on this war back in 2003; they were the sort of idiots claiming that the war would be over in 6 months
Facts are that it’s the idiotic moronic actions of the US military (eg Gen Odierno whose hamfisted moronic actions in 2003 encouraged the rapid growth of the resistance) that’s helped drag this war out
If the military gets broken as a result of a war they actively supported then SO BE IT – it’s no more than they deserve
Elliott @ 156
They will find a way to get out of it. Don’t forget who we are dealing with. They are ruthless. Only the serfs will be sent.
If the military gets broken as a result of a war they actively supported then SO BE IT – it’s no more than they deserve
Yea, but THEY aren’t in the military.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 162
And who believes Milt anymore?
Draft = cannon fodder.
It won’t work.
Casey might as well be Santorum. Some people just don’t understand that waiting for cooler heads inplies that Bush has reson on his side and thoses who know that Bush is a traitor to our country are hotheads and he doesn’t have the intellect to understand the issues and just puts his fingers in his ears and takes the easy way. Casey has been a huge disappointment. If he thinks we wanted another Santorum, he is crazy and illinformed. It is so disheartening to have such fools around.
I love it how the sunset provision actually being 18 months rather than 6 becomes “a little noticed provision.”
The text of the law is only 13 pages, in a large font.
mui @ 134
I don’t get how “it just happens….” from these hard swinging pros. OK. Maybe they could bamboozle me, a novice on the Hill, but if Teddy is still at that stage it’s because he wasn’t paying attention, had a few too many to drink or didn’t really want it to pass. Maybe I am just not giving any of them any slack any more.
LS @ 166
Infantry” cannon fodder
doesn’t matter HOW they get there
Elliott @ 157
no they won’t. The only college rethugs left are either sociopaths or flat earthers, who have no problems arguing that it’s the job of immigrant kids and the urban poor to die for their comfort.
They already have their medical excuses ready
The Christian kids who swelled their ranks a few years ago, have largely stopped going to the club meetings. The college rethugs that are left are people who have neither sense nor intelligence nor conscience.
Alice B @ 168
No way, He can’t be as bad as Santorum. Rickie was as bad as they get. And I assume Casey dresses better too.
Why can’t Russ Feingold be our Senate Leader? We need someone who knows how to play hardball.
Harry Reid is such a Charlie Brown. He and the other spineless Democrats need lessons in hardball politics from Cenk Uygur.
- Tom
Here is what I just sent to my senator, Bill Nelson of Florida. “I am dismayed that once again you voted with the Republicans to erode constitutional protections and give this duplicitous and deeply unpopular administration anything they ask for. There were other options to fix the genuine loopholes in FISA without letting the administration wiretap whomever they want, domestically or abroad while being answerable to no one. And that’s just what this bill does. The next primary election I hope a real Democrat who will stand up for his or her beliefs runs against you.”
Hillary apparently wants mandatory service to the country.
I have no problem with an all voluntary military. The problem is who is in charge of sending them to war. That is the problem.
QuakerGirl @ 155
Fair point BUT let’s face the facts – it sure as hell wasn’t 62 million RICH people who voted for that chimp back in 2004. The vast majority of the 62 million were middle class and poor. They were the same middle class and poor who were attacking the dixie chicks for daring to criticise their beloved President codpiece.
I would have ZERO problems with them having to fight in a war they wanted
Go see Hairspray and get a laugh at least the bad guys are self evident unlike the 41 fools masquerading as democrats when in reality they are no better pond scum than the opposition they let bend them over and have their goddamn way with.
raven @ 169
True!
It is interesting to see the number of our troops killed in all the July’s. This year is almost double the usual number killed in July. Last year 43 killed and this year 80. And the DOD probably kept a few hidden for the Aug numbers. Just because July is less than June does not mean that things are improving.
Rickie Santorum
Congressional Democrats didn’t get conned.
Activists who believed the Dems would fight for civil liberties were the chumps in this con game.
jim oconnor @ 97
actually not really (and it wasn’t a mcgovern aide who convinced me of this) – i think it was the house leadership… and their decision to 1) trust the administration and 2) bring it to the house floor at all that doomed us to s.1927.
i agree with most of what matt wrote, but i think he’s wrong about how easy it would have been to get the “not-so-bad bill” (i refuse to call it the “good” bill) past the house…
p.s. there may have been a lot of pressure from the conservative freshman dems on speaker pelosi (that they like s.1927 or that they needed to pass it so as not to risk their seat in 2008). but that is no excuse in my book.
p.p.s. and don’t forget the 6 D senator’s that couldn’t be bothered to vote on carl levin’s version of the fisa bill – a bill that failed on a vote of 43 – 45 (with feingold voting “yes”).
it’s going to take me a while to pull this togther with linky goodness… pease be patient and i hope you-all will check back later, because i’d really like your suggestions/corrections. i think we’re smarter when we work together.
DonR1 @ 175
All it would do is enable their “perpetual war” agenda. We couldn’t stop them from spying or the Patriot Act or invading Iraq. We would not be able to stop them from more war by way of a draft. Times are different. They are fascist.
What I can’t figure is even if they restarted the draft today, the troops produced by that draft would not be ready to deploy until this time next year.
Being generous, if we figure 90 days to restart the draft, then a year to give the appropriate training and equipping, those new troops won’t be available to deploy until after next year’s election…
LS @ 176
I have no problem with an all voluntary Hillary. Send her to the Green zone.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 145
I think this is absolutely right. A very interesting point is that they are also worried about us. That is why Nancy came out with her high profile statement about fixing it sooner rather than latter. What we need to figure out is how to make them more afraid of us because right now, fear is what is driving them. It would be risky because it might have too much success but the threat of a left wing third party would get them to sit up and pay attention. (Think “The Producers”)
john in sacramento @ 108
Just keep in mind that the US military fatality rate for a Friedman Unit is 409. (That’s since 3/03 — it’d be higher with current trends. And, of course, without civilians, other military & injured, it doesn’t reflect the true breadth of the human toll.)
If we buy off Tom Delay, maybe he can train our dem critters how to play the game the right way.
Brisingamen @ 184
neva hoppen GI
raven @ 164
True ….but the military still supported the war and encouraged it. It’s no damn secret that the idiots who participated in the abuses at abu ghraib etc were US military. I would have no problems with the military being broken as a result of a war they supported and encouraged. It was their idiotic actions that caused this war , and dragged it out. I have ZERO sympathy for the US military
mui @ 172
Didn’t want to imply Casey is as bad as Santorum, but Casey has made some votes that fly in the face of why he was elected. I will say, nobody is as bad as Santorum was. But that doesn’t give me much hope. Being not as bad as Santorum is not praise in my book.
Send Obama to Pakistan.
Harry and Nancy just bend over and spread their cheeks for BushCo.
Hey, at least he took her to dinner this time.
Carl Nyberg @ 181
Sure didn’t. They are master con artists themselves. This charade is to appease their constituents and use the “Darn conning Republicans” excuse again.
Raven — I have a question: The media keeps talking about problems WRT deploying troops after April 2008.
The impression I’m getting is that we’ve run out of troops that can be deployed — is that right?
Brisingamen @ 184
We have a standing army which is paid for with inducements to recruit. Skip the inducements and have a draft. Only a small percentage of people would be selected by the selective service. It’s too late for this war, but it might prevent the next. And besides, a military drawn from the cross-section of America has certain arguments in its favor. And it is true that the rich will invest more time and money into evading the draft. But they can be defeated.
GOPervert watch update.
A new day, a new perverted sex crime by the Family Values Party.
At least he’s not racist.
-GSD
Alice B @ 180
Take a look at the posting about this on my site. The fact is that casualties are headed down until Oct and that will be a big part of their evidence that things are working.
For years I’ve been asking why people are backing these idiots, they’re not Democrats by any definition or stretch of the imagination.
Glad to see some of you are finally catching on.
Brisingamen @ 196
That’s the conventional wisdom. The rationale for extending the Army tours from 12 to 15 months is part of an attempt to delay the problem.
Brisingamen @ 195
This is what McCafferty seems to be saying.
Why does a bill like this end up on the suspensions calendar?
So that Democrats can vote for it and tell their constituents they voted for the “good bill” (and tried to keep them “safe” that way), but the bill is still in no real danger of passing and forcing a conference.
Whoops! It didn’t pass! Gosh, now we have to reluctantly adopt the “bad bill,” so that we can have something in place. But look, I tried! You can see my name right here voting for the “good” one (and maybe even against the “bad” one). I’m a good Democrat, see?
True ….but the military still supported the war and encouraged it. It’s no damn secret that the idiots who participated in the abuses at abu ghraib etc were US military. I would have no problems with the military being broken as a result of a war they supported and encouraged. It was their idiotic actions that caused this war , and dragged it out. I have ZERO sympathy for the US military
You are casting a pretty wide net there. The “military” is Us.
realworld @ 197
It is notable that they use the number of US troop casualties as the measure of progress in their illegal occupation. Meanwhile, there is a civil war, collapse of the government, and disintegration of the infrastructure.
LS @ 183
What I know is that the US military has had to lower its recruitment standards DRASTICALLY to fill its recruiting quotas. This despite there being at least 200 million gungho military age war supporting Republicans
That tells me that those a**holes are gung ho for war ONLY if they don’t have to fight in it. Odds are that if they have to fight they’ll suddenly find that this war in Iraq is no longer so necessary. and if they do still find it necessary – let them fight and die in it
Something much more important than politics is calling me from outback…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPp5IO07D9s
Much of the military took the Shinseki as I recall in the very early days of the war.
I don’t recall a lot of cheerleading. Even guys like McCain and Hagel were very circumspect as the Andy Card/Karl Rove ad campaign began.
Once the decision was made, like good soldiers, they got in line.
If America were a vibrant democracy and not a decaying proto-fascist empire, there would be many top level military who would’ve been cashiered for rank incompetence.
-GSD
Is there any procedural rule that *required* Nancy Pelosi to vote on the Senate Bill Saturday night, or did she still have the option to keep her bill ‘on the table’ and have that one brought to a vote?
DonR1 @ 206
Come drive around Athens, Ga and look at all the frat boy SUV’s and Pickups with W sticker in the window.
“We now live in a virtual police state because the Democratic leadership screwed up.”
Announcement: You can sign up for a work permit at your local congregation, once you can validate your baptism.
People, what the fuck has happened here? Think about it. Yes, we know Bush has ran wild over the law and everything in between. But he has not dismantled anything, he has olny strengthened his hand. The Supreme Court is in his back pocket. The DOJ has publicly announced that it will not prosecute cases against the White House. Now they have the immoral authority to spy on whomever for whatever reason.
This is not the America I was born into. Our country, our birthright has been stolen. This is no different than when coups have occurred and authoritarian governments put in place. Read Iran when the Shah was installed. Read Pakistan under General Perv. Read Chile under Pinochet. Read USSR under Stalin. This is where we are. The first observable steps toward toward totalitarianism that can’t be masked as something else (like the War on Terror). This is the undeclared War on American Liberty. Led by George Benedict Arnold Bush.
I know it is not over, but these are the stakes were playing for. This is not a game.
GSD @ 197
Why don’t we have a ‘Glenn Beck’ on the left who would immediately point to this story and say on television without blinking ‘looks like the conservatives are up to their criminally-sexual ways – AGAIN -.’
Wouldn’t it be rad if we had some voice who just continually banged the social drums like how the Becks and O’Reilly’s do it?
Because, you know, this is like the 6 or 8 sex scandal in a year and all of them are GOP.
Kagro X @ 203
See! I can even eat my cake…!!! ;-)
Took the Shinseki stance…..Even Tommy Franks got Rummy to increase the number of troops for the rush into Baghdad.
The Richard Perle and Rummy fantasy model was around 40,000 or so.
-GSD
Tweety is hammering the multi-marriage rethugs.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 193
Why are we picking on Obama today??? He voted no on S.1927. So did Clinton.
If you want to bash somebody, hold my two senators to account.. one for not voting (Boxer), the other for being her usual self (DiFi)…
LS @ 166
This is exactly why it works in a democracy. Everyone has to vote with their lives at stake.
GSD @ 198
Too bad he can’t claim the first one was due to Ambi*n.
dead last @ 217
A veteran – whether active duty, retired, or national guard or reserve – is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to “The United States of America”, for an amount of “up to and including my life.”
DonR1 @ 204
First of all, there are 300,000,000 people in the US. 200,000,000 of them are NOT Repubs. Only about 40% of the population votes, and 29% or so still support the Administration. So, based on those kinds of figures, that is not really a lot of Repubs that would go. Of the draft age Repubs, most would find a way out. It won’t work. No draft.
LS @ 176
So Hillary wants manadatory service AND she will leave Iraq Januay 21, 2009???
Sorry, Hill, doesn’t add up for me.
Chris Matthews cannot handle the fact that within the Democratic Party there are differing positions on gay marriage. Is that the problem? We are not all in lockstep?
CTuttle @ 212
As I said before, there is something about this level of fuckery that I find hard to believe, and I am a guy who prides himself on being one who never underestimates the depths of depravity that Bushco is capable of.
On your specific question, is it possible that it was put on the suspension calendar when it had Admiral McConnell’s okay, and at that point it was non-controversial?
raven @ 218
*Sigh* I was one of those naive fools…!!! ;-)
fdl reader @ 220
why not? Mandatory service may be the only thing that WILL get us out on a reasonable timeframe (and prevent future unnecessary wars).
raven @ 218
It worked real well for Bush, Cheney, and most of the other jerks who got us into this war.
There’s a lot of Vermonters in Iraq – a high proportion per capita. And these aren’t kids driving around in SUV’s. I see kids who graduate high school, job prospects are daunting unless you feel good about the “service industry” – they don’t have the money for college, and they’re being swarmed by recruiters. They give it six months at the supermarket deli department after high school then they sign up.
Ill-advised? Sure. To blame for this war? No.
Rove’s Broken Military meme is being hauled out in preparation for a very unpopular draft that will be blamed on Democrats. Old Ironsides Hillary has taken the bait.
Jonah Goldberg’s Cheeto munching keyboardists will quickly change their tune when they are forced to join the army. But it will be too late.
CTuttle @ 223
Seemed like a good idea at the time!
selise @ 183
Oh, selise, this is *brilliant* work and so important for us to find out exactly what did happen and start calling their sorry asses out about it.
Thank YOU!
carolyn urban @ 225
Damn right.
TomR @ 174
I like The Young Turks usually, but Cenk is a former Republican.
raven @ 227
It was a lot easier to write that check when there was someone who was merely as dispicable as Johnson or NIxon and not as sociopathic as Bush43.
Pretty pathetic, eh?
Why did Nancy allow a vote on the Senate version, when the House version hadn’t been voted on yet?
Did she have a choice?
Kagro X @ 203
And putting it on the suspensions calendar was a way to hide it from the public.
I for one believe that we should enact a draft, and we have to get it done BEFORE shrub leaves office. There’ll be screaming crowds of several million on the Mall just in time for November….. featuring RudyG’s daughter, wearing an Donkey pin, as honorary guest speaker.
Blub @ 216
Obama said the other day he would be willing as prez to send troops to Pakistan. If this happens perhaps you would like to enlist. And as to Boxer and Feinstein, I voted for these two many times when I lived in Cali. I have no more use for them than I do Obama.
Take a look at Sen Casey’s US Senate web page…Imagine having a picture of a Democratic Senator taking an oath from Darth Cheney still being front and center for over 7 months. Get with it Casey!!! We want Cheney impeached, not highlighted. There is something sickening having Cheney issueing an oath….to the US Constitution, no less.
Enact the draft in hopes of bluffing the GOP?
When I play pok*r with the psychotic, I don’t bluff.
realworld @ 187
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Yes, indeedy, if fear is their button then yes, we do need to make them more afraid of us. Letting them know there are lots of us who are really, really angry, mounting primary challenges, and managing our $ and our volunteer contributions and telling them this is what we are doing are all really important.
They have to understand there are consequences; seems they haven’t really understood this.
Hey, the ‘netrootz has strategy!
LS @ 89
Hey LS … did you catch Fein on Bill Moyers a few weeks ago ?
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and Steny Hoyer accomplished exactly what Lieberman would have accomplished were he in any of their positions.
raven @ 204
The US military sure as hell DOES NOT include me
And yes the net is cast WIDE. I hold the ENTIRE US military responsible for the screw up in Iraq. As I remember it the conduct of the US military in Iraq and afghanistan has been to hold all Iraqis / Afghans as guilty first – need I mention that 99% of those they held at abu ghraib etc – ie 99% of those they happily tortured and raped were RELEASED without charge
Need I mention that Us troops were in possession of the photographs of what was going on at Abu G MONTHS before the media got hold of those pictures.
Damn right the entire US military is implicated in the mess in Iraq. I make no apologies for stating that. Just as they claim Iraqis are solely responsible for not doing something to prevent the chaos there; so they are SOLELY responible for the mess the US military is in
Looks like Tim Johnson will be back in September:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20163332/
Blub @ 235
He would veto it; just like he will veto any “Fix” for the FISA law.
I do not support a draft. And I think that anyone who is not either a veteran or a person of draft age who is willing to go to Iraq has no right to call for the draft.
OMG!
now, maffei may be a great guy… but hoyer should get smacked down where every possble. i just added myself to maffei’s email list, in order to get updates – which i hope will include the location and time of hoyer’s visit.
You are casting a pretty wide net there. The “military” is Us.
The US military sure as hell DOES NOT include me
And yes the net is cast WIDE. I hold the ENTIRE US military responsible for the screw up in Iraq. As I remember it the conduct of the US military in Iraq and afghanistan has been to hold all Iraqis / Afghans as guilty first – need I mention that 99% of those they held at abu ghraib etc – ie 99% of those they happily tortured and raped were RELEASED without charge
Need I mention that Us troops were in possession of the photographs of what was going on at Abu G MONTHS before the media got hold of those pictures.
Damn right the entire US military is implicated in the mess in Iraq. I make no apologies for stating that. Just as they claim Iraqis are solely responsible for not doing something to prevent the chaos there; so they are SOLELY responible for the mess the US military is in
Get a grip.
jayt @ 232
If the first Senate version had passed in the House, it would have had to go to reconcilliation, but the Senate was adjourned, and so there would have been no bill. Does that answer you question?
Blub @ 233
Living with a draft and trying to get it stopped will be worse than what is happening now. Once Pandora’s Box is open, it is hard to close it, and it will only enable the neocons. There is absolutely no guarantee that it would stop the war, future wars, or the administration. It took years to stop the war in Vietnam and the draft, and all of the lives lost while trying to get it stopped was a living nightmare.
carolyn urban @ 246
well, under the revised proposal that the Selective Service head put forward last year, to increase the registration range, I am draft age. If a draft happens, it’ll be the proposed broader range (up to 34).
Petrocelli @ 241
No. I’ve been meaning to watch it. I have heard him testify, and he’s a hardass. We need someone ruthless like him to fight the ruthless ones we need to fight.
realworld @ 199
They are ‘lying with statistics.’ The truth about the July numbers is they are double last July’s numbers, which is running with the trend over the surge. To say anything other than casualties are still trending up is a lie.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 235
Not exactly what Obama said, but all the same. One of his supporters, (Dick Durban) heard from Musharif, who said that Obama’s comments increase the risk of terrorism. I believe him.
Brisingamen @ 185
A draft is the only way I see to end this war. The outrage generated would be the final nail I think.
i say go for it.
LS @ 220
sorry – I meant to say 20 million gung ho war supporting Republicans. this is based on the 2004 election results – 62 million votes for President codpiece
As for your claim that not many Republicans would go ……maybe. But the vast majority of those who would go are those that supported and urged on this war – 70% of Americans urged on and supported this war in 2003.
I would have ZERO problems with any of them having to go to Iraq to fight and if necessary get what little brains they have blown out for a war they wanted
Sorry but BS from the likes of Shrillary Clinton, Bill Nelson, John Edwards etc that they were lied to is BS. If they claim they were lied to onthe war by, among others, GW bush, retired military (like Colon Boowel) why are they so willing to believe those same people on FISA ?
Blub @ 250
I repeat, I would like to see every person in this country give 2 years of service, military or otherwise.
US Army 66-69
So, Blub, would you go?
this has been a project of mine for years……….who should be eligible for the draft…….i was raised in a world where noone in my neighborhood had a worry about it………friends from the other side of town however, they would be gone……..i’m 48, so i came in on the tail end of the vietnam war…….my best friend is older, and knew many in vietnam…….i worked with many, who shared with me…….spend days and weeks in a manhole with someone, you talk about everything……..
i have sent many letters to reps about the draft……..that they need to have in place new legislation that if and when there is one, that there be no deferments and no exceptions……..except in the case of being sole caretaker of an elderly/disabled person or something like that…….everyone else goes………if you have some type of issue like flat feet, other physical ailment per a doctor, etc, which was used a lot in vietnam, then you can be of use in an office……..
i wish more people would write to get this legislation in place before the time comes when things will be more heated and harder to get it done………
randiego, would you go?
carolyn urban @ 258
I wouldn’t enlist, if that’s what you mean.. but if drafted, absolutely
DonR1 @ 243
ok.. this’ll probably get me in trouble on this blog, but I’m really not comfortable with this line of argument. The military isn’t supposed to be an instrument of policy.. and certainly not for this war. We’re engaged in a political war now, created by politicians to advance their political interests.. that’s it. Let’s not blame the military just because some of us don’t like men and women in uniform.
I have no problem with that – particularly with emphasis on “otherwise”
carolyn urban @ 257
Listen, I went. Korea and Vietnam. I respect the people who went and I respect the people who stood up and sad NO. What I don’t respect are thge weasel shit motherfuckers that used their family influence or school deferments to get out if it.
Must see. John Pilger for the hour on democracynow:
http://www.democracynow.org/streampage.pl
Very moving, very revealing – about journalism & war & propaganda
Blub @ 261
You aren’t in trouble IMHO. Some people like to run off at the mouth.
DonR1 @ 256
I could not support one more person being sent off into harms way based upon lies. I don’t care who they are. Two wrongs won’t make it right. We have to find another way.
raven @ 256
USAF 76-82 and I agree with universal service, NO deferments.
And please do not start with me on the profoundly disabled, for whatever reason. I do understand the problems inherent in that. But a universal service with no deferments for hemorhoids, or piles, or marriage, or college or all the other many ways that the chickenhawks used to get out of things during the last draft is not a totally bad thing. Reminds ALL of our shared needs and sacrifices.
Blub @ 259
Blub, I agree with what you have said, but Dr. Maryam sure made me rethink. Her take — and I dont know if it is representative of the entire nation of Iraq — is that most if not all G.I.s in Iraq are behaving reprehensibly.
carolyn urban @ 263
Yes, I would support a serious proposal for national service, but there should be a non-combat alternative… sort of like the Singaporean draft, which has a Civil Defense and police option.
Thanks for your answer. I feel you’re entitled to call for the draft if you’re willing to go, or send your son or daughter, husband or wife.
Otherwise, might as well go stand with the republicans.
eCAHNomics @ 265
I saw it. Wow.
I agree with DonR. Count me out too. The American Military, its enormous budget and its Corporate coat tail riders – the Media and the Military Industrial Complex – is corrupt and costs too much money and too many lives. It is also wreaks havoc on the environment. A small military with a small budget for the purpose of defense and defense only is all that we really need. We need single payer not for profit health care for all and solar and wind energy.
LS @ 252
It’s probably still on Bill Moyers’ website … positively the best News show I have ever seen !!!
raven @ 247
are facts upsetting you Raven ? Imerely used the SAME arguements made by the Us military about Iraqis against the Us military and it seems to have upset you……wonder why ?
Another point about 12 term Republican Nancy Johnson(CT) being defeated while using the scare tactic of national security, was she lost big in towns that are affluent and heavily Republican. These are the R who see that Bush’s war is bullshit.
carolyn urban @ 260
That’s not the point, but I’ll bite. I signed up for Selective Service on my 18th birthday, just like I was required to.
The current volunteer army is made up of mostly lower class poor people, who look at the military as a step up. These are the people with NO voice in this country. You start involving some upper middle class kids and you’ll see some real outrage from republicans, instead of their current kneejerk backing up their clown/leader.
BigMitch @ 254
WASHINGTON – Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Wednesday that he would possibly send troops into Pakistan to hunt down terrorists, an attempt to show strength when his chief rival has described his foreign policy skills as naive.
“Let me make this clear,” Obama said in a speech prepared for delivery at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. “There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again. It was a terrible mistake to fail to act when we had a chance to take out an al-Qaida leadership meeting in 2005. If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20070536/
DonR1 @ 274
Oh, because I’m a fascist pig hanging around a liberal blog. I’m glad you have a corner on the truth.
Pelosi Action Alert:
For all you Connecticut residents, take note.
Nancy Pelosi will be in Stamford on Thursday, August 9 at a fundraiser for Chris Murphy.
This is your chance to chat with Nancy about FISA.
Here are all the details:
Speaker of the House
Nancy Pelosi
Thursday, August 9th
12:00 – 1:30 pm
Il Falco Restaurant
59 Broad Street, Stamford
$250 ~ Guest $500 ~ Friend
$1,000 ~ Supporter $2,300 ~ Host
Paid for by the Committee to Re-Elect Chris Murphy.
Contributions are not tax deductible.
Corporate contributions are prohibited.
Description:
Where:
59 Broad Street
Stamford, CT
06902
When: 12:00 PM – 01:30 PM
http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/event.do?eventId=695
I’m with you there – and what I’m saying is, if any of these folks calling for a draft are personally unwilling to put themselves on the line, WTF
dmac @ 258
Oh? and what about real medical issues for females? Becuase they can’t just dismiss ‘endometriosis’ as a nothing disease. Debilitating pain IS a pretty good reason to not be fit for combat. Particualarly since this particular disease requires so much to manage. Medication and otherwise. It’d be a total waste to attempt to put poeple like me into a military draft. (i had attempted to go in at 17 into the AF myself, mind you. i washed out due to medical reasons.) I’m pretty sure they’d try too. Even though i can’t hold a job without having medication to get through my day without being completely incapacitated by pain.
That’s my devils advocate role for no exceptions, no deferements. Because there ARE some people out there with legit reasons to not be put in the military. I can serve outside of it–but i’m in no way fit for military bodily stress.
BigMitch @ 269
I don’t disagree.. but that happens whenever 18 year olds are put into that position, and, frankly, especially the case when the military is forced to dredge the absolute bottom of the recruiting barrel to meet the politicians demand for troops, in a hopeless war.
If the first Senate version had passed in the House, it would have had to go to reconcilliation, but the Senate was adjourned, and so there would have been no bill. Does that answer you question?
Unfortunately, no.
“There Was No Objection”
Friday, August 3, 2007
5:00 p.m. Approximate conclusion of hour-long House debate, and commencement of vote on H.Res. 600 (the 8/1/07 House Rules Committee resolution to allow consideration of motions to suspend the rules on Friday, in order to make a FISA bill and a redeployment plan from Iraq bill in order); it passed (as amended to include allowing a MN bridge money bill to be in order) 228-196.
[MN bridge money passed unanimously, upon a motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill, in this interim period.]
7:20 p.m. Approximately hour-long debate commences in the House on H.R. 3356 (the Democratic FISA bill) which the House had just agreed (at 5:00 p.m.) to entertain a motion to suspend the rules and consider (and pass provided a required 2/3rds majority approves).
7:50 p.m. A scheduled House Committee on Rules meeting commenced to discuss and vote on two special rule resolutions for Saturday action in the House [including another resolution that would allow consideration in the House of motions to suspend the rules to make an unspecified FISA bill in order on Saturday, and one that would allow same-day majority–vote House passage of any further (FISA, plus) resolutions that may be voted out of the Rules Committee on Saturday, Sunday or Monday (which otherwise require a 2/3rds vote to pass the House on the same day they are reported out of the Rules Committee)].
8:05 p.m. The Rules Committee meeting ended after passing by voice vote H.Res. 613 (which would allow consideration of Saturday motions to suspend the rules in order to make a FISA bill in order) and H.Res. 614 (which would allow same-day consideration – by majority and not 2/3rds vote – of new Rules Committee resolutions through Monday, relating to FISA, plus) and was adjourned. All indications are that the Rules Committee did not meet on Saturday.
8:08 p.m. The Senate, which had been recessed since 11:33 a.m. “subject to the call of the Chair” reassembled, and proceeded to accept a unanimous consent request as follows:
8:35 p.m. The House vote on H.R. 3356 commenced, following Speaker Pelosi’s comments on the floor (her last on the FISA issue before adjournment through August) in which she stated that leaving oversight of new surveillance powers to the Executive Branch (whether the Attorney General, the DNI, or the President through Executive Order), rather than with the Judicial Branch, was “absolutely unacceptable.”
8:55 p.m. The House vote on H.R. 3356 was concluded; it failed 218-207 (a 2/3rds majority required to suspend the rules and pass was not achieved).
9:10 p.m. Senator Whitehouse closed the debate for the Democrats in the Senate with a one-minute statement pointing out (for the benefit of Senator Feinstein and others) that an Executive Order forbidding monitoring of U.S. citizens overseas is not an independent check and balance, contrary to the assertions made to her in the halls by DNI McConnell during the debate, 20 minutes after Feinstein claimed she first saw the Democratic Levin/Rockefeller version of the FISA bill (which Whitehouse among others had spent the “graveyard shift” crafting).
9:15 p.m. Voting underway in the Senate on the McConnell/Bond FISA bill (S. 1927), needing 60 votes to pass (per the unanimous consent agreement); by 9:35 p.m., it passed 60-28.
9:20 p.m. Voting underway in the House on a motion to adjourn until Saturday; it passed and the House adjourned for the night at 9:39 p.m.
9:45 p.m. Voting underway in the Senate on the Rockefeller/Levin FISA bill (S. 2011), needing 60 votes to pass (per the unanimous consent agreement); by 9:55 p.m., it failed 43-45.
11:08 p.m. The Senate adjourned by unanimous consent agreement until September 4th.
[Timeline reconstructed thanks to liveblogging by FDL’s commenters.]
I would not go, nor would I want my children, friends, relatives to fight wars that those sending our citizens profit from. No way. That is our reality right now. Again, there is absolutely no guarantee that an uprising of the citizenry opposed to a draft would be successful in these times.
In an ideal world, yes, I support service to the country of everyone, no deferrments other than medical, however, we do not live in that kind of world.
Blub @ 132
Yeah, what was up with that?? I was so sure she had voted against it I was truly dumbfounded to find she had not voted at all! W.T.F.??
selise @ 247
i’m an idiot. here’s the link to the dkos diary – all about how to get your chance to meet hoyer. *g*
Re: the draft
This is Freakonomics 101 — Bush has concealed the cost of the war by having “volunteers” and mercenaries fight it, and by running up deficits rather than using taxes for a “Pay as you go” war.
Put the full cost of the war in front of the public, in both blood and treasure, by instituting taxes and a draft, and the 30% who don’t already hate the war come over.
solai @ 234
Kabuki-ooki! Pelosi’s been talking to Specter.
pow wow @ 285 — wow. thank you for pulling all that together.
randiego, thanks for your answer too. And let me say, I’m not trying to bait you, or put you on the spot – I appreciate your answer and I admire your willingness to serve.
And I do hear what you say. It was the draft, and the horrific casualties that ensued, that ended the Vietnam war.
But I’m still against the draft. I hate this war, and I don’t have any answers.
And to be fair: I would take up arms if need be, for the right cause. I would not go and fight in this war.
*xyz @ 280
Fantastic.
Good to see you at YK too, *xyz.
In a new draft, I would have no deferments for school. Those who used lawful deferments in the last draft (but not family influence) did nothing wrong.
USAR (70-76).
The other day the Republicans had a debate and Tommy Thompson said that he was in the military, “but I didn’t do anything special.” I liked that about him. When I was in the Army Reserves the R.A./U.S. guys called us draft dodgers. In my case, somewhat justified. But I wasn’t a hypocrite: I opposed the war and the draft.
I didn’t have to enlist in the reserves to avoid the draft — I had school deferments. I enlisted because I believed in service to my country.
albert fall @ 289
Yes. my argument exactly… it’s all hidden cost right now. Poor people with no voice, and contractors whose numbers don’t get reported.
carolyn urban @ 281
Seems like there are some bad asses here today, sign them up.
Blub @ 261
Wrong…..among those egging on this war were members of the US militaryt and retired military.
The minute that members of the Us military followed toed the chimp line in blaming Iran for the mess that THEIR INCOMPETENCE helped create (need I mention their rush to secure the oil ministry while leaving arms dumps unsecured), they CHOSE to become involved in policy
To date when challenged to produce ANY evidence of Iranian involvement all the US military have done is produce hearsay.
sorry, but the US military is TOTALLY implicated in this mess. THEY were the ones who set up and carried out the abuses at abu G etc. And don’t give me that s**t about following orders……they refused to accept that defence from Germans, Japanese etc so I sure as hell don’t see why they’re so special that they get to use that defence
QuakerGirl @ 80
Yup, there are. There are lists showing how much they got. This one os probably out of date, but check it out:
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/…..05031.html
We desperately need to cultivate a sense of civic responsibility among Americans, and to do so we have to put an end to a belief that the dirty jobs, like soldiering, are done by the poor and disenfranchised. I don’t want to fight in a war or join the military, but I do believe that any draft age person who says he’ll run away or get daddy to procure him a deferment or expects either of these scenarios to happen, is a very bad person, who symbolizes everything that is wrong with this country today.
Petrocelli @ 239
I loved Fein on Moyers (showing again this Friday night on PBS) but Fein was on Randi Rhodes on Air America yesterday and she mentioned it again today. She’s on fire about the FISA thing and her callers are even more angry. But Fein sounded to me like he hadn’t studied it carefully and he thought it was an improvement. Randi had Vargas (female constitutional scholar not the ‘news-model’) on today and they agreed that all we are hearing about FISA is bad. Fein is not measuring up on FISA.
Wrong…..among those egging on this war were members of the US militaryt and retired military. Amazing analysis, you are a genius.
aliasofwestgate @ 282
That’s why many of us are calling for a Universal service, not just for a military draft in order to accommodate those who can serve in service roles at social service agencies or other than the military.
I completely agree with this.
raven @ 296
Not sure who you are talking about, but I’m saying if we had a draft, and the cost was spread across the population evenly, we wouldn’t even have a war. That’s why I support a draft.
LS @ 266
I would have ZERO problems with those who supported this war or their spawn being sent to fight a war they wanted
Obviously others would get caught in that net as well…….that would be “collaterla damage”. As I recall they don’t seem unhappy with the US military regarding the 650,000 Iraqis they have MURDERED as being “caollateral damage”…..all we see from them is whining about 3000 GIS being killed in a war that the vast majority of them wanted and supported
We’d have to ask canada for help for implementing that, you realize? *grins* they do have mandatory universal service up there. So asking for advice would be warrented.(if the government could put down its pride and bloody well ASK)
But getting it approved and started is the hard part. I won’t be holding my breath, becuase i dont’ expect it to be done in my lifetime.
hackworth @ 273
I guess that makes three of us, thank you. I was beginning to feel like FDL had been hijacked by the DLC and Leibermanesque anti partisanship drones which we all know just supports neo con militaristic fascism and more death and mayhem around the world.
If it was so terribly wrong to kill innocents in Iraq to begin with, it certainly is wrong to encourage more of it, imo.
I guess you understand that this means that you, personally, could very well become part of that collateral damage.
Still seem like a good idea?
carolyn urban @ 303
As well as giving all Americans a stake/risk in this war I believe a draft would change the mindset inside the military. I agree that the draftee soldier’s in Vietnam who decided to stop fighting had more to do with the war’s end than did protests here.
Which is why the military doesn’t wan’t a draft.
The major part of destroying the military has been the purging of the likes of General Shinseki, Gen Eaton and others.
Bush/Cheney/Rove have done TO the US military what they have done to the Justice Dept.
Gutted it and filled it with sycophants and flunkies.
There are still honorable men left but the number is dwindling I’m afraid.
-GSD
I think it’s a powerful message that Bushco is unable to recruit enough youngsters.. Although the hypocrisy in many young neo nuts angers me.. I am thankful they are not joining up to be Cheneys global hit squad.
It is NOT true. The Dems were NOT “punked”. They are NOT the “good guys” who keep haplessly getting the shiv. WE are the “good guys” that the politicians, both parties, keep giving the shiv to. The Enabling Act of 2007 would NOT have made it through if not for the complicity of Pelosi and Reid AND Hoyer. The PARTY is punking US with the trifle “no” votes. They merely gave a little alm to the netroots in hopes that it would be enough and that we’d still love them.
NO. We must NOT still love them. We must LOATHE them and never EVER trust them. We must ALWAYS threaten them with the loss of position, loss of power, loss of funding, loss of votes. There is no lessor evil here, just plain treasonous evil. GOP evil which is in your face, and Grimma Wormtongue sneaky-assed evil that is the Dems.
BOTH parties what authoritarianism. BOTH of them have been doing this shit for decades. WHO STARTED EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION?! The Democraps, in general, Clinton specifically. What party has NOT invaded, bombed, killed, people and couped democratic governments all over the world? Dems AND GOPers do the same things. There is no difference and you are fooling yourselves if you think the Dems are “good guys” and the GOP are “bad guys”. THERE ARE NO GOOD GUYS HERE! Only dictator wannabes.
Am I too late to the party? Someone said it was getting “heated” down here – and I’m in a mood to join a Fistfight!
( I know watching *ucker Carlson upsets me; yet I continue to turn in…)
mack @ 13
I am inclined to blame Hoyer and Emmanuel for this fiasco, for being asleep at the switch.
Memo to Blue Dogs: Your vote in favor of the President’s FISA bill does not make you look strong. Instead, it makes you look like weak-kneed ninnies who lack the backbone to fight for what is right.
Bob in HI
No problem, Jacgrat, wouldn’t want to leave you out. Here’s a smack upside the head!
I think that a lot of stock is placed in Sharansky’s adage about democracies not being able to start wars of aggression, because people who have a choice would never choose to bear the human cost of a war… I still believe in this notion, but the problem is, we did start a war of aggression… which begs the question of whether or not we’re still a democracy in the purest sense of that term. Allowing our leaders to outsource war to people who have no stake in the political process, because they’re foreigners, mercenaries, or just poor and voiceless, undermines everything that this country should stand for, and enables antidemocratic people like shrubco and the neocons.
raven @ 279
You said it not me ………
I just find it so amusing how the likes of you are all sanctimonious about how special and perfect the US military are but when facts are used to shine a bright light on them, you squeal like pigs
Sure as hell wasn’t me that raped and murdered a 14 year old girl in Iraq and tried to cover it up – that was the US military
Sure as hell wasn’t me that sentenced those troopers who ADMITTED their guilt to basically 10 years including time already served….that was the US military. I might add that this sentence was barely double the time served by hundreds of those detained by the US military at Gitmo – ALL of whom have been found guilty of NOTHING
GSD @ 310
As well as cultivating the Rumsfelds, Feiths, Cambones, General Boykins and others.
-GSD
Yes, we are also witnessing the social fraying that an ongoing war causes too.
America is about to get twice as ugly.
-GSD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 278
(my bold)
This is a problem: Obama sounds like Bush talking about Iraq. Bush was wrong and Obama is wrong.
I won’t review the information about bin Laden, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Saudis here for now …
The WoT needs to be over.
Jane Hamsher @ 293
Is it too late to craft a suitable “Kiss Float” to follow Nancy and others around this August?
I’m afraid so, but maybe it’s better than being asleep.
Blub @ 316
Except that Arthur Silber makes quick mincemeat of that lie (by quoting another historian). Democracies DO attack other democracies. We have done so repeatedly. Don’t spout that lie as icing on all the other lies of the Dems and the GOP. They entire house of cards is a lie and only liars live in it.
randiego @ 277
Those lower class poor people were the ones who were happily painting BS like “boots up asses is the american way” and “courtesy of the red white and blue” on bombs and missiles etc fired at Iraq
Those “lower class poor people” aren’t the innocent parties in this mess that you imply them to be
they were gung ho and supportive of this war back in 2003…..the only reason that they may not be supportive NOW is because NOW they realise that they have a pretty damn good chance of being maimed an killed; that casualties aren’t just going to be Iraqis
God, Obama’s a fucktard. 3000 Americans did NOT die in that attack on 9/11. There were over a thousand FOREIGN NATIONALS IN THOSE BUILDINGS. Now, if you want to count the thousands slowly murdered by Bush and the EPA AFTER the initial attack (during the cleanup when the air was clean and pristine) then you may have a number…
DonR1 @ 317
Go at it mod’s tell me not to get personal.
raven @ 301
Facts upsetting you again raven ?
Facts are that among those supporting this war were: Gen colin Powell, General tommy Franks…..retired and at the time SERVING military
Whine all you want but you can’t dispute the facts which is why you’re limited to whining
other then the abortion issue there is not any difference from all the players involved they all in the same boat of corporate money doing their biddin like good soldier .they should give awards for best acting in washington. the terrorist reside in washington. here a little there a little they slowly cooking us like frogs.
fdl reader @ 320
I think he’s just demonstrating his inexperience here, not his warmongering.
Everybody knows that Pakistan’s ungoverned hill country is a problem for regional stability.. whether you’re urban Pakistani, Afghani, Indian/Kashmiri or Central Asian… If you’re Hindu in northern India you’ve known this for generations. But a presidential leader-type shouldn’t be spouting off at the mouth about invading a sovereign country, just because they’re ineffective at governance.
I don’t necessarily hold his comments against him, I just don’t plan to vote for him.
Sen Clinton baited him and he fell for it, and, frankly, judging from his reaction, she was absolutely right to do so.
With their shocking surrender over President Bush’s draconian new FISA law this weekend, Congressional Democrats snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. They not only had the votes to safeguard American civil liberties and prevent the legalization of past Bush White House criminality. On FISA as we knew it before August 5, 2007, Democrats had the law – and public opinion – on their side.
For the details, see:
“Democrats Snatch Defeat from Jaw of Victory on FISA.”
carolyn urban @ 322
Amen to that.
-GSD
Eureka Springs @ 307
In reference to the point abot the US military costing too much money……………..need I mention the FACT that I was not surprised that the Pentagon admitted it’s inability to account for 190,000 rifles it had supposedly supplied to the Iraqi military ….after all, this is the same organisation that admitted it is unable to account for $ 1 TRILLION in funds it has received !!!
And this from an organisation that lambasts the Iraqis for incompetence etc
GSD @ 330
That should be the new rethug slogan for ‘08: “Long for more sleep? Let us do your work for you. Go back to sleep. Nothing to see here. Vote Republican.”
raven @ 326
Who’s getting personal ? I merely pointed out that you called yourself a fascist pig……
alias at 282 says-”Oh? and what about real medical issues for females? Becuase they can’t just dismiss ‘endometriosis’ as a nothing disease. Debilitating pain IS a pretty good reason to not be fit for combat. Particualarly since this particular disease requires so much to manage. Medication and otherwise. It’d be a total waste to attempt to put poeple like me into a military draft. (i had attempted to go in at 17 into the AF myself, mind you. i washed out due to medical reasons.) I’m pretty sure they’d try too. Even though i can’t hold a job without having medication to get through my day without being completely incapacitated by pain.
That’s my devils advocate role for no exceptions, no deferements. Because there ARE some people out there with legit reasons to not be put in the military. I can serve outside of it–but i’m in no way fit for military bodily stress.”
i was trying to shorten my post-it was already long enough, so i didn’t go into detail…….of course you would be exempt…compassionate reasons would certainly be valid…….also someone who is the sole caregiver for minor children……you must have read my posts enough to know that that is certainly not what i meant……what i was saying, and what i mean is that noone get an exception through not so legitimate means……..
and just so ya know, i’m disabled, with the pain thing, too……..hope you feel better some day………mean it…….
I understand the mentality of the weak-kneed Democrats, but I don’t understand Republicans who are likely to give up the presidency next year. How are they ever going to make a credible claim to reign in a Democratic administration if they’ve already authorized so much power to this presidency?
jayt @ 234
jayt –
The Senate-passed version of FISA (and no other) was allowed onto the House floor on Saturday by the House leadership, and by every single Member who knew it was about to be offered but didn’t object, via a unanimous consent agreement propounded by Steny Hoyer:
Steny Hoyer the day before, during the debate on the Democratic FISA bill (H.R. 3356):
I note again that Harry Reid apparently understood exactly what would go down in the House on Saturday, or decided to force the House’s hand to follow the Senate lead, when he adjourned the Senate for the month Friday night. It is also clear from comments during the extremely limited, and sudden, FISA debate in the Senate Friday evening (30 minutes per side) that Harry Reid had no interest in keeping the Senate in session on Saturday or Monday to finish ironing out differences.
Arlen Specter and Carl Levin were discussing possible wording changes in the halls during the debate, Feinstein had yet to understand the Democratic version, and misunderstood Feingold’s objections, DNI McConnell was in the halls twisting arms, and Harry Reid couldn’t wait to gavel everything to a close, because he knew full well he had the 60 votes to pass McConnell/Bond.
The 60-vote Senate threshold rigged the vote: no way were the Democrats going to get 10 Republicans to split off for Rockefeller/Levin, but the Republicans sure got 16 Democrats to split off for McConnell/Bond. Reid didn’t even come close to allowing enough time for those opposed to this unConstitutional rush-hack-job to coherently make their case against it (while the entire Senate stood idle from 11:30 a.m. until 8 p.m., in recess). Jim Webb did a GIGANTIC favor for Mr. Reid, using his credibility to cover for Reid’s duplicity. Yet still, “no objection was heard” from a single member in the Senate either, if only on principle…
P.S. There was no risk of a 218-vote discharge petition from the Blue Dogs siding with Republicans overruling Pelosi, if she had chosen to stand with us and our Constitution, by forcing the Senate FISA bill to the floor: that Senate bill hadn’t yet been referred to a House committee from which it could be discharged, and in addition, there wasn’t time left in the session to force it to the floor (without a 2/3rds or unanimous vote), as I understand the rules, even if it had been ripe for discharging in that manner.
Blub @ 329
Sen Clinton is no better given her BS response over her Iraq war vote and repeated claims that she was lied to and misled……lied to and misled by a person she has claimed to be incompetent
What it proves is that they’re both no better than the pool of cartoon characters that the Pukes have assmebled
donr1 says-”You said it not me ………
I just find it so amusing how the likes of you are all sanctimonious about how special and perfect the US military are but when facts are used to shine a bright light on them, you squeal like pigs
Sure as hell wasn’t me that raped and murdered a 14 year old girl in Iraq and tried to cover it up – that was the US military
Sure as hell wasn’t me that sentenced those troopers who ADMITTED their guilt to basically 10 years including time already served….that was the US military. I might add that this sentence was barely double the time served by hundreds of those detained by the US military at Gitmo – ALL of whom have been found guilty of NOTHING”
i think you’re aimin’ your anger in the wrong direction here……..you obviously are unfamiliar with raven’s past comments………and took this in a direction that was meant to inflame……..be angry, but don’t take it out on people who served honorably…….and expect those who serve to do it honorably…..your all or nothing argument is showing you to be wrong, to me……anyone who argues that way loses….you’re pointin’ your gun in the wrong direction here…….
“
raven @338 – nope, but my buttons are getting pushed too. Lot of ranting, lot of blaming. That stuff’s easy.
Coming in late to this interesting – ahem – debate…
DonR1: there is a difference between the “military” – meaning the higher-ups and those making command decisions – and the “military” – meaning the kids who are dying. While I acknowledge the truth of the examples you cited, they are not the entire military. They are disgusting aberrations for which there is no forgiveness.
The average age of our KIA’s is 21 years old. As we all know (or remember) 21yo’s are stupid, immature, and easily led – especially by senior NCOs and officers. They don’t have the experience to know that “A” is correct military behavior and “B” is not, and they don’t have the maturity to refuse clearly illegal orders, much less those those in the murky gray area.
That is why, during Nuremburg, no regular member of the German Army was prosecuted for “following orders.” Camp guards, those high in the chain of command – yes. They knew that what they were doing was a violation of every moral and legal principle, and allowed it. The soldier fighting for the Fuhrer and homeland however was seen as being a victim of his country’s propaganda.
Personally, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised to discover you are a freeper troll. We’ll probably see you quoted on some right-wing blog tomorrow: “Liberals at FDL Hate Our Troops! See!!”
Okay, so DonR1, the question is still out there. Anything you are doing to help? Ever served in the military yourself? Vote? Visit your Congressional Representatives? Letters to editor? Door to door in your community?
dmac @ 340
Sorry ‘mac……I’m aiming my anger at someone who’s implied that the US military is above reproach……………their conduct not just in Iraq but in Afghanistan and Vietnam has proved that claim to be a pile of dogs**t
Need I mention that the US military gave Steven Green an HONOURABLE discharge ? Need I mention what that scumbag has been accused of ?
And don’t give me that s**t about innocent until proven guilty because there are hundreds no thousands of afghans, Iraqis etc who have been denied that right by the same US military you claim deserve that right
No one here is going to defend Green. The guy murderered a little girl. An honorable discharge is shameful. But to lump in the entire military into the Steven Green camp is ludicrous. There are honorable people in military service. There are wet behind the ears kids who felt they had no other choice. There are a bunch of people who were totally deceived by the lies following 9/11 – they think they’re actually fighting an enemy.
You’ve got your fucked up hate filled soldiers, sure. But you’ve got your fucked up hate filled people walking down the street out your front door, and commenting on blogs. So, what are you going to do about it? Serious question.
People can have passionate disagreements about issues here. That is one of the things that makes FDL what it is. But, DonR1 (and to a lesser extent Raven) there is no good to be gained by personal insults to other commenters. So, stop it.
PA_Lady @ 343
Ther is NO difference whatsoever despite your claims to the contrary.
Some of those camp guards who were prosecuted were kids as well
And do explain what the hell the US military is doing having an “immature kid” as a corporal in the US military ? you obviously did not follow Cpl Trent thomas’ “stunning defence” for his ADMITTED part in the MURDER of an innocent Iraqi – “I was following orders” !!! and who was this ‘formidable fearsome’ high up whose orders he was following ? Oh yeah – his f**king Sergeant !!!
And don’t give me that s**t about a 21 year old not knowing that rape and paedophilia are WRONG. Hell kids younger than 21 have been found guilty of similar crimes !!
Yes – rape and paedophilia are among the acts committed by the US military in Iraq – acts committed by US troops, KNOWN about US troops and COVERED up by US troops……PFC Bryan Howard admitted that HE KNEW what his comrades had raped and murdered a 14 year old kid…….he helped try and cover up the crime – his sentence ? 19 months confinement
And don’t give me that crap about him not knowing waht he did was wrong
You and raven are nothing more than apologists for those like the rapists and paedophiles Cortez, and Barker and their enablers like Spielman and Howard.
Freepers as you call them also claimed that Iraq had thoousands of tonnes of WMD ready to fire at 45 minutes notice back in 2003……The majority of the US public believed that pile of shit back then so it proves you’d believe pretty much anything
I don’t particularly hate the US military…..I’ll admit to not caring a damn about them in the same way I don’t care a damn about the catholic church – and given my comments above, I’ll leave it to you to figure out what I’m saying they have in common………
donr1 at 345 says-”Sorry ‘mac……I’m aiming my anger at someone who’s implied that the US military is above reproach……………their conduct not just in Iraq but in Afghanistan and Vietnam has proved that claim to be a pile of dogs**t”
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ok, some, but not all……you were saying all…….there are many here who served honorably, raven among them, and they are not included in that, at all…..many are active in vets organizations fighting this war……..i won’t spout off my long list of friends and relatives whom also served honorably………and my brother who died doing the same………just so ya know……….
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“Need I mention that the US military gave Steven Green an HONOURABLE discharge ? Need I mention what that scumbag has been accused of ?
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i’m not familiar with steven green, but any soldier who violates his oath should be sent to prison, and yes, be eligible for the death penalty if it applies……..
====================
And don’t give me that s**t about innocent until proven guilty because there are hundreds no thousands of afghans, Iraqis etc who have been denied that right by the same US military you claim deserve that right”
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hmmmmmmmm…….that would seem to be an obvious right. to all who post here…………
whom are you fighting?
llike i said in an earlier post, you are pointing your gun in the wrong direction…………
there’s no way that you’ve read many posts here and say what you are saying to us……we all differ widely, but we have wide open eyes……and gather facts here…….i think you are lacking in facts in what you are directing at people here……..
i know you are angry, but i really think it is misdirected, i have been around here for a while now, and i think you need to be around more to see that you’re off base with what you are saying about the commenters here………really…….
Valley Girl @ 345
Yes ma’m.
I hope that if in any of these democrats district a voter accidentally forgets to vote for the dumbass who frittered away our civil liberties. For fucks sake they don’t belong in congress if they’re that stupid.
This may be a stupid idea. What if we got the listings of the contributers to the campaigns of the Democrats who voted for FISA and started a write-in campaign to those donors asking them to not support the Congressman further until FISA is corrected? I would certainly support such an effort.
DonR1 @ 346
I am stunned that you let this guy keep this up.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 140
There’s an obvious reason for that impression. And it’s only tangentially related to the Nazi input to the early CIA and Dubya’s “we need fascism here” ancestors.
The fact is that our current interrogation procedures are, in fact, totalitarian, anti-human-rights, anti-freedom, anti-democracy, anti-Western-tradition, etc. They are just an abomination and they don’t work at getting accurate intelligence. They don’t make us safer. Quite the opposite; they produce bad intelligence inputs, and Bad Data Is Worse Than None ™.
carolyn urban @ 344
why the hell would I want to serve in the US military – an organisation that I have admitted to not caring a damn about
As for Congressional Reps…………..you mean those idiots who voted so fervently in favour of a war ? A vote they were claimed they were lied into voting for by the same person they now claim wouldn’t lie to them about FISA ?
Sorry but spongeBob Squarepants would be more effective than those clowns – and that applies to your heroes like Hillary clinton, Harry reid, Chuck schumer etc
raven @ 351
and donr1 may i add………..i was appalled at the sentences that were NOT given to us soldiers for crimes committed against the iraqi people……….so many here commented on how much dr. maryam’s reports affected them, but no comments about the lack of punishment for crimes committed by soldiers, so, i’ll give you that…….but the rest of your diatribe, i feel, is misdirected………
Blub @ 132
What about John Kerry?
raven @ 349
Thank you, raven. ;)
Steve @ 349
A little late in this immensely long (for FDL standards) thread but that is a good idea.
I still wont vote for any Dem (no worries, wont vote for a GOPer either) in 2008 but this is something I’d ally myself to. Anything to sink the boat of traitors and cowards works for me…and I am REALLY in the mood to fire a few torpedoes and sink a few boats.
okay I’m putting down my chair and getting out of this brawl…
carolyn urban @ 346
Lumping the entire US military into the Steven Green camp is ludicrous ? Far less ludicrous than the US military blaming 26 million Iraqis for attacking the WTC…………need I mention that of the 19 alleged perpetarators NONE was Iraqi ?
I’m merely apply the same treatment to the US military that they have spent the last 4 years applying to 26 million Iraqis
I’me merely applying the same treatment to the US military that the US public has been quite happy to have applied to 1.2 billion Muslims and indeed anyone who pours scorn on that codpiece they voted into the W***e House
Well, many have said we need better Democrats. So to add insult to injury, we can add rank incompetence to the list. Hmm, just like the Bush Administration.
But really, trust Bush? Why?
Trust a Bush appointee? Again, why?
What, Hoyer hasn’t been in the House long enough to figure out how things work? Or is he too busy preening in front of the mirror?
This is inexcusable. In a normal world people would get fired for these kind of failures.
I want some fucker in the Democratic party to get fired for this. I don’t care who, or how, or why, but someone needs to be kicked to the curb for this shit, then ********.
Moraines.
Edited and released by MOD
raven-”I am stunned that you let this guy keep this up.And thanks dmac, I don’t have it in me to try to reason with this guy. If he was spouting right wing shit like he is this stupidity they would have 86′d his ass by now.”
‘welcome raven………..i come from a world of diversity………oftentimes i don’t comment, but sometimes it’s in my realm and feel the need to take up the mantle……..hate is a drug, and it is on both sides…….many espoused dr. maryam, but all i heard was hate and division on purpose, as an action……..donr1 is doing the same thing she did, just from the other side…..anyone coming from the ‘i’m justified because’ realm feels their hate stronger than anything….that’s what most people don’t get….the hate is the motivation for their actions and their words, and anything else they have to say is lessened by it to anyone who looks objectively at a situation………hate in any of its forms is pointing the gun in the wrong direction……..
dmac @ 349
you aren’t familar with the antics of Steven Green – the pride of the US military ?
What rock have you been living under ?
It’s odd that you’re all so familiar with those mythical thousands of tonnes of WMD that Iraq had ready to fire at the US in 2003 but you aren’t familiar with the antics of Steven Green !!!
The right to innocent unlss proven guilty is a right that seems obvious to all ? sure as hell doesn’t seem obvious to those lick spittle dem Reps you helped elect…..I would expect BS like that from those knuckledragging pukes who get their info from a drug addicted, boil on the butt, via*ra boy but not from people who claim to have open eyes and gather facts !!
I am fed up with idiots who imply that the US military are somehow special and shouldn’t have to answer for the crimes they commit
dmac @ 361
Namasté
carolyn urban @ 308
That’s an interesting tack. I’m going to pointedly ignore the heat DonR seems to have generated.
I’m still young enough to join voluntarily – which since the Constitution, the Rule of Law, and Reason are no longer our King, I will never do – and I’m still more years away from having children old enough to get caught up.
Still – would I support a draft? Yes, I would. My father was Vietnam-age and joined the Navy to avoid serving in Vietnam. I was born in a military hospital. My ancestors have served in most, if not all, wars this country has had.
I believe in the idea of service. But the reason I would support a draft right now is that we are really in such a bad spot I think it might be necessary. Look at the recent FISA law clusterfuck. Look at the overall politicization of every branch and function of government. The real war might be, not for whatever it is we are allegedly doing in Iraq, but against incipient fascism within.
The truth is we have all the instruments of fascist government in place. Corporations make government policy. Individual rights are whittled down to a sorry nub. State police powers are virtually unlimited; if they merely allege you are connected to terrorism somehow, they now can monitor all your communications without warrant, abduct you, and torture you, with no court intervention. Once you are in a secret prison your passport means nothing. My appreciation for the second amendment has gone up.
So, yes, I would support something that would expose myself and/or members of my family to mortal danger if it meant spreading Democracy to America.
raven @ 353
Of course you’re upset……it’s clear that facts upset you
raven @ 356
Facts obviously upset you
As I said I find it so amusing that so many self righteous Americans complain about someone killing US troops who are in their country illegally but rush tothe defence of self confessed paedophiles like Cortez and Barker juts because they were wearing a fancy uniform when they raped a little kid
DonR1: One last thing before I head out for dinner: Spec. Joseph Darby, US Army
raven: G’night and good luck. *smile*
donr1-quit being an ass and answer my post——-dialogue rules here, not explosive words………..
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donr1 at 345 says-”Sorry ‘mac……I’m aiming my anger at someone who’s implied that the US military is above reproach……………their conduct not just in Iraq but in Afghanistan and Vietnam has proved that claim to be a pile of dogs**t”
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ok, some, but not all……you were saying all…….there are many here who served honorably, raven among them, and they are not included in that, at all…..many are active in vets organizations fighting this war……..i won’t spout off my long list of friends and relatives whom also served honorably………and my brother who died doing the same………just so ya know……….
==========
“Need I mention that the US military gave Steven Green an HONOURABLE discharge ? Need I mention what that scumbag has been accused of ?
==================
i’m not familiar with steven green, but any soldier who violates his oath should be sent to prison, and yes, be eligible for the death penalty if it applies……..
====================
And don’t give me that s**t about innocent until proven guilty because there are hundreds no thousands of afghans, Iraqis etc who have been denied that right by the same US military you claim deserve that right”
===================
hmmmmmmmm…….that would seem to be an obvious right. to all who post here…………
whom are you fighting?
llike i said in an earlier post, you are pointing your gun in the wrong direction…………
there’s no way that you’ve read many posts here and say what you are saying to us……we all differ widely, but we have wide open eyes……and gather facts here…….i think you are lacking in facts in what you are directing at people here……..
i know you are angry, but i really think it is misdirected, i have been around here for a while now, and i think you need to be around more to see that you’re off base with what you are saying about the commenters here………really…….
Ahhh, a new hate topic…
And with that, I’m gone.
dmac @ 357
Lack of punishment ? Hell what about the lack of prosecutions ?
For an organisation that claims to be so highly disciplined, seems to be an awfully large number that the US m