Given how easily the Administration stampeded Congress into its mind-numbing, Constitution-trashing vote to allow warrantless spying on even US residents (including citizens) on the say so of the least trustworthy Attorney General in my lifetime, one wonders why the Administration even went to the trouble of sending Secretaries Rice and Gates onto the talk shows. But there they were, continuing the White House’s relentless and relentlessly misleading propaganda campaign to convince Congress and the public that General Petraeus’ Iraq surge is, guess what . . . working and should continue.
Surely the White House knows by now that a disgusted public is helplessly resigned to the fact that Congressional Democrats still have too many frightened sheep — about 41 in the House, 16 in the Senate — to stand up to a President even, as David Brooks noted on NBC, the Republicans “hate.” They also know that with enough Democratic sheep and Republican lemmings, they can take the country over any cliff they choose, and so they’ll get whatever they want in September, and continue their catastrophic war on Iraq no matter how false and misleading the claims in Petraeus’ report.
Still, you have to marvel at the orchestration and the sheer level of misdirection. Ken Pollock and Michael O’Hanlon continued their victory is possible lap on Fox News, proving that even if Glenn Greenwald exposes that you shamelessly misrepresent your record of bad advice and even worse predictions, you can still fool most of the media most of the time, and Fox News all of the time, as long as you support the President’s war policies and exploit the media’s penchant never to check the track record of the so-called “experts” they keep allowing on their shows. And with all of the right wing pundits and the Vice President pointing to their “expert” assessment, and the talking point du jour echoed by Gates, Rice and Petraeus, who can doubt that we are making progress in Iraq and should continue the present successful plan? Of course, it helps if when you define success, you count the things that don’t matter and ignore the things and people that do.
So just for the sake of history — not that it will matter in September — but because future generations trying to understand how a once great nation experienced such a rapid and thorough moral disintegration and humiliation, it’s worth pointing out a few facts just from the last week that went virtually unnoticed during the current propaganda binge:
- While US casualties were down in July compared to previous months, the level of violence against the Iraqi people has been rising. Attacks against and deaths went up for both Iraqi security forces and Iraqi civilians (up a third from the previous month). Apparently, the definition of “progress” is highly dependent on the nationality of the victims.
- The condition of such fundamental services as electricity and fresh water systems is on the verge of collapse. Clean water is an essential foundation of civilization, and it is now scarce in many areas; the electricity system is essentially non-functional — down to about 2 hours a day — which means that the ability to maintain essential services or acquire and maintain food without spoilage is endangered unless you’re lucky enough to have private micro generators and can obtain scarce fuel without being killed.
- The most important “progress” that Petraeus, Gates, and Rice keep citing appears to have been achieved by buying off the Sunni militias who, while willing to help the Americans neutralize the Sunnis’ al Qaeda rivals, are nevertheless dedicated to overthrowing the Shia-dominated, pro-Iranian central government. While Secretary Gates, appearing on CNN’s Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, denied the US is directly providing arms to the Sunni militias, he concedes the US is providing money, which I’m sure the Sunnis can figure out can be used to buy arms.
- If you’re wondering what the newly rich Sunni Sheiks are buying these days, according to a July 31 report of the US Government Accountability Office, the US military “cannot fully account for about 110,000 AK-47 assault rifles, 80,000 pistols, 135,000 items of body armour and 115,000 helmets reported as issued to Iraqi forces.” About 30 percent of the weapons intended for the Iraq security forces over the last three years are AWOL. That’s just the stuff provided courtesy of the US. I’m sure the Iranians and Saudis are equally helpful in stimulating private markets for arms. UPDATE: Almost forgot to mention the guy who was in charge of making sure this didn’t happen: General David Petraeus.
- With increased fighting in Iraq cities, the number of refugees and displaced civilians is increasing; there are now several million Iraq refugees, creating a genuine and growing humanitarian crisis.
- The al-Maliki government, already angered by the American strategy of arming Sunni warlords, has been moving perilously close to collapsing for the last month, as members of its coalition abandon the central government.
Even those closest to the Iraqi prime minister, from his own party, admit the political situation is desperate.
“I feel there is no strategy, so the people become hopeless,” said Faliy al Fayadh, an MP from the Dawa Party. “You can live without petrol, without electricity, but you can’t live without hope.”
Only an Administration mired in delusion and denial and oblivious to the human suffering it has inflicted on others would ignore these conditions while claiming the surge is bringing progress to Iraq. But with a Congress composed of unquestioning sheep and lemmings, and mindlessly centered only on American perspectives, it may not matter. If/when the Iraq adventure collapses, and the nation confronts the full horror we have created in Iraq, it may come as a complete surprise to those who lead this country.
Photo: AP Photo/Petr David Josek, US helicopter over Baghdad.
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the zed!
Good going, OC!
2?
Scarecrow!
Lindy @ 2
not bad, eh?
Many will say that the collapse of the Iraq govt. is progress.
I’d suggest siccing markfromireland on them, but it might be considered cruelty. To mfi.
“Making Progress” means that the cheeto-contingent get their puerile dreams validated by VD Hanson, Rich Lowry and all the rest of the apologists while we lose our freedom and civil liberties one piece at a time.
That kids, is “making progress” in the era of a shrubbery.
Oh, and BTW did anyone actually tell the NeoCons that the Shia and Sunni had something more than a blood feud going for centuries? Thought not. I guess that Good General Petraeus will come back and report that startling fact in a month or so. That too counts as “making progress”.
rwcole @ 6
many will say that the collapse of the US govt is in progress also….
OldCoastie @ 5
rwcole @ 6
That might not be the worst thing in the world. A more pro-American “MacArthur” type government might work quite a bit better.
Yes! Scarecrow. Great one. By the way how was it that the NYT op ed editors didn’t catch the misrepresentation of the pair before they published this crap. Shades of Judith Miller– (knowingly closing one’s eyes)?
We’re fixin ta have a giant pissing contest. The generals are gonna say that progress is being made and that we need to continue the surge—clusterfuck will pull out all the stops to get his glorius victory message across. He still has the Bully Pulpit and it will be VERY difficult to counter his bullshit.
Worth noting US casualties for this and previous Julys, to illustrate the kind of progress America’s making:
July 2007: 80
July 2006: 43
July 2005: 54
July 2004: 54
July 2003: 48
Deadliest July in Iraq for American troops so far.
Oh yeah, and the Saudi’s quietly funding the Sunni militias is “making progress” too. They get rid of their homegrown crazies in Anbar and other places and the ones that survive are better trained in urban combat against US and “allied” forces than anyone would expect.
Who says Darwin was wrong? He just understood “making progress”.
deleted by author…*g*
Happy August 6th PDB day!
I want an independent investigation of 9/11 or at the very least I want to know what was redacted out of the 9/11 Commission report regarding the Saudis. I want to know how Bandar Bush really played this country.
I wish for something to come out that would make every Congressman and woman refuse to ever endorse a policy of this administration.
Now, I’m blowing out the candles.
Scarecrow… its seems there are many who have a vested interest in keeping this insanity going, specifically being bushco, the neocons, their mouthpieces in the msm, mercinaries on all sides (let’s not forget they are getting a nice paycheck for this), the contractors building now and future re-building and people who keep gobbling up the msm bushco premise that it was ever, for one split second, about helping anyone except themselves to the oil and perpetual war. Its the stupidest damn thing I’ve ever seen and its about time those in the Washington ego bubble, and their supporters, had their faces smushed in this pile of shitmire they created and enable everyday it goes on.
Thank you for all your good posts!!! Great to see!!
By all means let’s remember this one from January 2005 as well:
Prediction
By this time next year there will be a dictator in Iraq- Clusterfuck will argue that he’s a very democratic sort of dictator- but he’ll take over and do all the things Clusterfuck’s been screamin for by fiat. It will be announced as a “temporary” situation.
US oil companies will get fat contracts and we’ll defend the dictator from his own people.
Operation Enduring Segregation
http://www.kansascity.com/news…..17995.html
rwcole @ 17
Where is Saddam when you need him?
Scarecrow, thanks for your work!
OT – Jeebus – I’m away for six days, and Reid/Pelosi have tied up the Forth Amendment and sent it off for slaughter.
I’d rather be back in the forests..
rwcole @ 17
Isn’t that what is happening here? So what you’re saying is – we’ll have exported our “democracy” to Iraq?
hey, Kirk!
good to see ya’.
A commenter somewhere wrote that the Russians destroyed their own infrastructure in order to fight Napoleon; that France blew up its own bridges, etc., in order to fight the Nazi occupation — historically, that is what happens when countries are occupied…that is not AQ, it is resistance to occupation, and it is regress not progress. It will not stop until the occupation ends.
Twain @ 20
Indeed.
kirk murphy @ 21
they always do this when you leave town, you know.
thank you Scarecrow!
Continuation of the last thread…I just got through to DiFi through her San Diego office. An aide named Graham said he couldn’t say how many people had called on the FISA issues (due to “privacy” issues, how ironic). However, he wrote down my concerns and said the Senator would issue a press release within the next several days that explains her vote. He was not able to tell me where DiFi will be during recess, and doesn’t know if she’ll post her schedule.
Good afternoon folks, and good morning to the west-coasters who sleep in late. Just filling in a little today to give Christy a break — she and Jane were on several panels, (Christy also chaired the “hot topics” discussion with Digby and others in the great hall on Friday — and I caught a great panel with Siun on world poverty. The FDL women were everywhere — and doing FDL proud.
Excellent, Scarecrow — looks like YK2 served a lot of Wheaties!
One minor correction:
Caw. Caw. Banging Molly’s pots & pans.
Today’s Bush-Karzai presser, from AP:
Yes, we’re making progress. We also believe in NOT answering direct questions.
OC Democrat @ 27
I guess Graham would claim executive privilege, if pressed on the explanation of what is private about stating how many calls she has received. It’s all about Feinstein’s privacy. They obviously don’t care about ours.
scarecrow @ 29
They always do! And so do you… glad to have some extra Scarecrow today. *g*
LS @ 16
After everything that has come out about this administration I can’t imagine what it would take. If congress hasn’t seen enough by now, IMO they will never see.
Victory is possible. We had victory in the first 6 months after the Iraq War.
We are no longer in the Iraq War now. What we are now is something else. I wish the pundits and our politicians would name it what it really is – Occupation OR police action.
Once we define it properly, we can start to make progress. If we keep calling it a war, then we will not get anywhere at all.
We had victory in the first 6 months. Bush and his administration made a horrible decision by remaining in longer than we needed to. Their reason was (and I don’t support their rationale), they were interested in getting the oil profits for American corporations, instead of letting the wealth go to the Iraqis we just liberated.
I would say that this strategy isn’t the worst, and is aligned with how America has been conducting its military for like the past 50 years. But we basically took an existing half-century policy (that is, make money go to America), and gave it to a president and Administration who were crooks and idiots. Incompetency OR corruption, there is no other way to summarize The Bush Administration in these past 7 years.
Is there linkage for the world poverty panel Siun was on? I’d love to see it if anyone has a clue where I could find it.
Biodun @ 31
If you substituted “the US under the Bush Administration” for “Iran,” Bush’s statement makes perfect sense.
OC Democrat @ 28
No posting of the schedule means she’s getting bombarded. GOOD! I will continue to try to get through in SF.
tbsa @ 33
Obviously, someone there knows a lot or they would not have redacted so much of it regarding the financing of the attacks. That could just be too threatening somehow. They think we can’t handle the truth…the rest of them are just too busy wheeling and dealing…sigh.
This is “progress” too:
LS @ 24
And that’s just what Iraqi Dr. Maryam said about Iraq when she appeared on Siun’s post here a week or two ago.
TOP TEN SIGNS IRAQ IS BECOMING VIETNAM
I only disagree with you to this extent, scarecrow. I don’t think the government is even interested in the American perspective on the Iraq situation. The American perspective on Iraq is that it’s a mess that we should get out of as soon as possible, not escalating our involvement in.
Biodun @ 38
Then where the heck are they? Is it possible they are in Florida or Nebraska enjoying themselves?
Anybody wateCAHNomics @ 41
Right.
anangryoldbroad @ 36
I’ll check with siun (if she’s not here) to see if we can get more information. A lot of the panel was focused on the need to bring free public education to children in impoverished nations. See this site.
Bushco’s idea of progress appears to be two-pronged. Genocide serves to clear the way for oil business.
It would help if the people who own and represent our media weren’t so blissfully in the tank for Bush and the GOP.
From Iraq to the true state of our economy, they crank out baloney to us in the Great Unwashed. (Which is why their dismay over Rupert Murdoch’s buying up Dow Jones is so telling: They liked him just fine when he confined himself to the tabloids or his trash TV or to media outside of the US. But now that he owns the WSJ — and worse yet for the elites, Barron’s — they are howling like stuck pigs.)
Anybody watch W’s face this morning when someone questioned Karzai about pardoning the 14 year old suicide bomber? Whew.
OT-Has anyone seen Alfred?
NYT editorial on prosecutions for political purposes right here in the USA.
Meanwhile, we now have this big “bipartisan” tent on this one issue (and I think this is is “progress” too, in this divided nation of ours):
(I’ve been lake-less for the past 24 hrs, so I apologize if this ground has been covered.)
Did anyone else get the DCCC email today, looking for money to run an ad about “the New Direction for America that Democrats are charting for America”?
Galling, really, less than 48 hours after they killed our Constitution. A few, er, low-lights:
As I’ve said so many times in the past 6.5 years, it would be laughable if not so tragic.
FWIW, here’s what I replied to Van Hollen & the DCCC….
Congressman Van Hollen–
I think your use of phrase “The best defense is a strong offense” is beyond ironic, given that Congressional democrats showed absolutely NO STRENGTH AT ALL on this weekend’s vote for FISA.
To say I’m disappointed doesn’t even begin to describe my frustration with the democratic “leadership.” The Republicans, even in a minority position, continue to dictate legislation against the American people, and I can’t even begin to imagine what possible reason there might be that they’re continuing to get away with it.
Until I begin to see any hint of strength and leadership from the Democratic “leaders” in Congress, I’ll keep my money and spend it to support candidates who WILL bring about change. Especially those who will be in a position to replace current Democratic leaders.
Or until I begin to see some sign that the current Democratic members of Congress actually have some ability or even interest in doing what’s best for our country, and not George Bush and his friends.
With deep sadness & frustration,
Loo Hoo. @ 49
I’ve been wondering…..
What is his website again?
On to plane. My best to all firedogpups.
Democracy ain’t workin in Iraq- forget the surge- that’s not even an issue- it’s like pissin in the ocean to raise the tide- the biggest problem is Clusterfuck’s democracy- it’s worthless.
LS @ 48
Can’t look at bush’s face let alone hear his voice.
Would. Stroke. Out.
Biodun @40, I remember when the leading security minister was talking to some Pundit in America, and the pundit kept on sinking one liners about Pakistan dropping the ball, and every time the pundit did this, the minister gave him a look like ‘you have no fucking idea what you are talking about’
But of course, Pakistan isn’t a very democratic country. It’s tough to decide who’s bullshitting when nearly all of the information is held only by Pakistani or American intelligence agencies.
LS, can’t remember, and my computer crashed so I lost my bookmarks. Ravings of a Rational Mind?
OC Democrat @ 28
“explains her vote”: She might as well rehash a speech from the Roman Senate, explaining why it was a good idea to let the Emperor have his way. George Caesar Bush, that’s who we have. She can explain all she wants, but the Legislative Branch has sold the Republic, OUR Republic.
It was wonderful meeting you, egregious! Safe flight.
rwcole @ 18
I don’t think so, because if there were a potential dictator around, we’d know about it already & he’d be preparing to take over instantly, as the current (laughingly-referred-to-as) govt is about to fall.
My prediction:
U.S. will leave whenever we leave. Chaos will follow, but AQ will be slaughtered. The locals will take care of them ASAP. So no terrorism worries from Iraq.
Now, about the chaos, about all I can saw is, the longer stay,the worse the post-partum repression will be. If we’d left after 6 months, as someone above suggested, there would be less problems, as ethnic cleansing has now become a downward spiral. Staying can’t make it go away; staying aggravates it.
There is no solution to Iraq except getting out.
Loo Hoo. @ 58
My computer crashed completely last week too! Everything gone. Mr. LS had to replace the hard drive….Ravings..sounds right. I’ll go look.
Alfred
Twain @ 43
“They” are in the WH plotting the next attack on us whether it be by white powder, b*#b, airplane or by ripping up what is left of the Constitution.
tbsa @ 56
His eye(s), nose, mouth…pursed up so tight they disappeared into his head almost!!
Maybe Alfred’s on vacation.
Bush keeps talking of winning but has no idea what winning means. The only thing at stake is the president’s vanity. So long as we keep backing his losing hand, he doesn’t have to admit defeat. We’re pouring blood and treasure down a rat hole so that he can keep on smikring as he plays at being commander-in-chief.
We keep arming both sides and claiming we can’t leave because the ensuing civil war would be too lethal. Duh!!
Not only don’t these idiots know what they mean by “win,” but they don’t even know whom they are fighting or why. In a news release today, our #2 in Iraq, Odierno, said that 3/4 of the attacks that killed or wounded Americans were by the Shiites, which isn’t surprising now that we’ve thrown in with the Sunni insurgents. (WaPo/AP story by Kim Gamel) So any
claims of progress against the Sunni are irrelevant. We are now paying them and arming them. Of course, we’ll have “progress” in terms of fewer attacks in their areas. “You want success we’ll buy it for you. Whatever it takes.”
IMHO, we should turn on our noise machine and start ridiculing Petraeus’s report right now. We need to find the right name to call it, e.g., Petraeus’s light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel report, or his “hopeful-signs” report. All they want it to preserve Bush’s vanity to the end of his term. And Petraeus wants another star — he knew ahead of time that this wouldn’t work, and said so. http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c…..012771.php
Liberty Lee, why don’t you just name it:
You’re talking about dumping the purple-fingered ecstasy of yore, for some strongman like Chalabi or Allawi. (did you know they’re cousins? :o))
OR: are you in favor of dispensing with sockpuppets altogether, and of cutting (in reverse) straight to the chase, with another Bremer-type pro-consul, only this one, in camo?
Because, I gotta tell you, George Bush will have one fuck of a time running THAT, with all it’s implications for point-of-a-JDAM “freedom and democracy”, past the american people as: “progress”.
Plus, I can guarantee you, that if the parliament is dissolved, even “voluntarily”, and george bush fills the vacuum with some bloody-handed exile whose main attraction is that he’s guaranteed to be user-friendly to the petro-borgs and big oil, as Drift calls them, it will mean that Gordon Brown will instantly have to make a decision as to whether or not he is willing to irrevocably stick his head into the poodle-leash noose just vacated by Tony Blair. And if he’s not willing to slather his entire Prime Minister tour with george bush’s feces, then it will mean that our troops will very soon, have to be used to deal with the militia and warlords who are taking over Basra, as we speak.
Oh. Somehow, I doubt that the end of even the vestigial “democracy” that we see hiding out in the green zone, will mean a reduction in the violence.
What scarecrow (thanks again for an informative post) is documenting here (continuously documenting, it seems) is very hard for amurkans to actually understand, that we are subjected to the most professional and omni-directional propaganda campaign ever seen. One can argue about the degree of coordination at the top, but the effect seems, to me, to be undeniable.
The lies and misdirections are almost too overwhelming to be discerned, and are so legion they almost cannot be attacked. The only antidote from this perspective is indeed here on the web. It is so sad that the majority of the Dems are part and parcel of it, and the progressive community have so few tools with which to attack the lies.
Having been in Europe over five years now, where at a distance the propaganda is plain as day, i can’t imagine how one can cope, and try to break through the web of deceit. But it must be done.
And we’re also making frank and serious “progress” on the, er, diplomatic front:
wigwam — So much for al Qaeda being the main threat, but I guess that argument only applies in the even weeks of the month.
Tanbark @ 68
The original error was that the military was NOT in charge of the occupation a la Japan or Germany. That’s what the tribes knew to expect. Now, I expect one would see the form of their Constitution observed with a Chalabi /Kurdish with Sunni Face. British forces are vestigial in any event. It would help if they remained but it is not essential if Gordon Brown’s re-election were endangered. I suspect that with a complete committment to the now-successful reconstruction effort would give the bottom up appearance to establish order for enough years for the system to develop. People forget that it took the Articles of Confedration 1
60 Minutes had a report from last year on regarding the Kurdish region. At least at that time, there were only 79 US troops in that area, and there had been zero killed.
Duh. I wonder why?
In today’s NYT, Paul Krugman says that George Bush is “deeply dishonest” – which for Krugman is like shouting. He is so correct.
72-continued Articles of Confederation 13 years to form a strong Central Government and the Constitution.
wigwam @ 67
Absolutely spot-on, wigwam. They all keep talking as if were a football game – all the ‘winning’ and ‘victory’ gibberish without the faintest clue of what’s actually happening.
I guess most of the other PB bloggers are too hung over from their frolic at Daily KOS to be posting on this outrageous take-away of Democracy with the FISA bills.
This is the first post on this subject I’ve found in any major PB sites this morning…the lead story at HuffPo is that Gulianni’s daughter is voting for Obama…
While I find that terrific, I wonder why so many of the major PB sites have so little on this horrifying capitulation by the Dems…
i think the two family system, bush and clinton, is a great idea!
what freedom or right can we give away today?
LibertyLee @ 74
Why did the US invade Iraq?
And then there’s this matter of “progressive” disintegration:
LibertyLee @ 75
The difference is that the people did not have a foreign military forcing a form of government on them.
eCAHN’s right. Just leave. While there is still an option for how and when.
If the government implodes, or if bush, Saigon-like, engineers a coup by some strongman, whose side will he be on?
Will he be a Sunni?
Watch that 60% Shiite population, react to THAT.
If he’s a Shiite, then there won’t be anymore ratting out, or hunting down of, Al Queada by the Sunnis. They’ll want every AK-47 and streetbomber they can find.
Bush is trapped. I mean balls-in-a-bench-vise trapped.
A coup of any kind, equals no more bullshit about progress or “doable”. All that will come to a screeching halt, and along with it, the participation of the Brits, in trying to cover bush and the GOP’s asses.
I’ll go you one better. I’ve got steak dinner that says that Brown has already said this to bush:
“The parliament collapses, either of it’s own weight, or if you engineer it, and we will be on the road to Kuwait so fast it will make your head swim.”
And right here, is there anyone who thinks that if/when the Brits bail, it won’t jack the pressure on bush and the repubs, to the point of unbearable?
Give Richardson this; he’s politically savvy, and nervy, to be offering the two word solution:
“Out. Now.”
Time is on his side. I like Edwards, but maybe we need to take a closer look at Richardson.
LS @ 16
It’ll never happen. You and I both know what happened to the WTC, and as little people, no one in this wonderful administration is going to tell us the truth. Want to purssue it, they’ll call you a crazy. It is a conspiracy “theory.” Actually, it’s just a conspiracy, but no one in America wants to hear that. And by this time next year, it won’t matter, because the King will take off the gloves, and we’ll all wake up and find that we haven’t lived in a democracy for quite some time now. See ya in the camps.
Way OT from a very interesting post that I will now go back to reading:
Ed S. was saying on the radio this morning that no questions wrt impeachment views were posed to the prez candidates at YK. Is this accurate?
I’ve been ‘unconnected’ mostly of late due to family obligations and am slowly catching up. Plz forgive if this has already been addressed.
Don Davis @ 41
THE TOP TEN DIFFERENCES BETWEEN VIETNAM AND IRAQ-By Don Davis
10. Vietnam: Battle between communists and corrupt dictatorship. Iraq: Battle between the 6th and 7th Centuries.
9. Guerilla tactics in both are a given — but at least in ‘Nam, our boys got to sleep with the local women.
8. Vietnam: Our troops had continuous access to dope. Iraq: only when Rumsfeld pays a visit.
7. Vietnam: Enemy tries to kill and maim us. Iraq: Enemy also flagellates themselves.
6. Vietnam: Huge anti-war rallies. Iraq: Cindy Sheehan in a pup tent.
5. Vietnam: “Best and the Brightest” rely on Domino Theory. Iraq: Neo-Cons rely on Fats Domino theory.
4. Vietnam: Jane Fonda on enemy tank. Iraq: Jane Fonda on Jesus’s flank.
3. Vietnam: McCain tortured by Reds. Iraq: McCain tortures the Blues.
2. Vietnam: SecDef with wire-rimmed glasses knew adventure was major fuck-up. Iraq: SecDef with wire-rimmed glasses is the major fuck-up.
1. Vietnam: Hard to tell which side Vietnamese civilians on. Iraq: Hard to tell which side we’re on.”
Another point lost in this embarrassment of empire is the fact the US is arguably spending 3/4 of a trillion dollars a year on its war machine 600 billion on defense/70 billion on intel/100 plus on occupational hazards, while China, next in line on spending is around 50 billion..
Aside from the moral madness this is economic suicide.
You know, I am only barely keeping tabs on Iraq Debacle any longer. The facts don’t matter. The Dems will do nothing, Bush will do what he wants (and the Dems will go along).
Hell’s bells, support for the “splurge” is up according to a rawstory article. A slight majority think it is doing some good now.
Do you honestly think that Rahm Emmanuel, Pelosi, DiFi, etc, are going to stand up for right and get us out? They wont.
Do I sound somewhat despondent? I am. I am getting to the point of not giving a f*ck and just hunkering down to take care of myself and mine. Ammo, provisions for growing my own food, ensuring access to my own water, etc, because I fully expect that besides social collapse, we are facing full-on economic collapse too. The government is 100% broken. Something that broken CANNOT be fixed, only swept out of the way and dumped in the trash.
Eureka Springs @ 82
Russia learned that the hard way.
Richardson’s my pick at the moment.
And there’s “progress” defined by ex-academic Robert Gates:
My bold.
LibertyLee @ 71
How do you define “successful”? Is it rebuilding and securing all those pipe lines? Is it ensuring that all the generating stations are working 24 hours a day? Is it maybe the constant and clean water supply? Is it maybe the….. oh what the hell I know what it is it is the perfectly safe green zone. Liberty Lee if you are interested I have bridge to nowhere to sell you
With gutless unprincipled scum both as ‘leaders’ (Har! Har!) and peons in the Democratic Congress what is the point of all the sense one reads in the blogsphere? All it does is vent frustration, I suppose.
Can these gutless fools not see that nailing Bush, one baby step at a time, is all that will stop the lunatic Occupation with its potentially lethal drain on our economy.
It has gone so far that three separate communities is now the only solution for Iraq, and Turkey is the only country with the strength and experience to carry that out.
But I do not expect too many here in this new and demonstrably ludicrously inexperienced country to understand the significance of old knowledge. It worked for hundred of years and a couple of seriously and actually knowledgeable Near/Middle East hands confirmed that in their advice in 1919 and 1927, TE Lawrence and Sir Arnold Wilson.
Listen folks,
The study of insugencies, especially when they’re occupations, is that they’re rarely won unless the occupier uses total warfare, meaning the whole population is the target of either outright killings or very severely restricted living conditions. Boer war, when territory was drawn into concentration camps, is such an example. But that doesn’t always work either-that’s what the Soviets tried in Afghanistan. Partial measures along those lines (blast barriers around Baghdad neighborhoods; during VN they herded SVN peasants into “secure” villages) almost never work.
U.S. doesn’t have guts (thank goodness) for that kind of war, so winning is out of the question.
Twain @ 73
Yes- and he clobbers HHHHHillary for similar dishonesty (big Pharma/Insurance pull this at odds with broad public interest).
Impeachment and removal from Office would take- what- 17 gooper senators?
That ain’t EVER gonna happen- better to get back to something that really CAN happen.
Instead of sending money to sell-out political candidates would we be better off forming some sort of organization to buy up media organizations?
How much capital could we raise? Would we be able to buy a national cable channel, or perhaps a number of radio stations in different parts of the country?
Air America provides content, but they don’t own any stations.
How much would it cost to buy up some small-town newspapers and start publishing a little “truth?”
LS @ 79
To rid ourselves of National Security threat Saddam Hussein and establish a geographical presence between Iran and Pakistan.
Wigwam @67,
Pretty much. That’s exactly how Bush’s 27 percent see it as too, when trying to reason with them. Usually it goes something like this:
“You don’t want al-Qaeda to win, do you?”
Or this one..
“Liberals and Democrats want America to lose”
Winning and losing. Iraq is not a fucking game! As the old proverb goes: In war, there are no winners.
eCAHNomics @ 93
total warfare will not work in a situation of occupation such as this. In the end, the local interest (however that comes to be framed) with prevail. That is why Isr*el also must come up with a viable resolution for the Palestinian issue.
Cahn
Yep- more or less my comments on the day the invasion was announced- the american public doesn’t have the stomach for the kind of bloodletting that would be required to win this thing- so why in the hell are we starting something we can’t possibly complete?
And from the newly sized Gray Lady:
Saddam a national security threat to the United States of America? Ya gotta be kiddin- like an elephant running from a sparrow..silly!!
After the way Pelosi and Reid structured the FISA votes to ensure its passage, I will never look at them the same way again. I will always view them as part of the problem, not the solution. I will take nothing they say at face value but will look for the hidden backstab.
After their disgraceful and deceitful performance with FISA, I have grave doubts about will happen on Iraq in September. We already know what General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker are going to say in their reports: complicated, some progress, must continue, if not bad things (which will be blamed on the Democrats).
Kabuki.
It is all kabuki. Petraeus and Crocker are the chief promoters of Bush’s Iraq policy. They are not impartial arbiters.
Bush lost Iraq a long time ago. His war has failed. But this will not prevent Bush and the Republicans from blaming Democrats no matter what the Democrats choose to do or not do.
O’Hanlon and Pollack both say the surge is making progress. Yes, they are hypocrites and shills. But it is also interesting to note that while they back the misnamed “surge” (i.e. longterm troop increases in Iraq), they admit that its two main pillars: a political settlement and security in Baghdad have failed.
As scarecrow notes, a quieter Anbar now is being bought by strengthening Sunni militias for a bloodier phase later in the Iraq civil war after we have left. This underlines the difference between the Washington Bush Petraeus Crocker Bergner O’Hanlon Pollack narrative and the Iraqi one. In Washington they are still playing Risk. In Iraq, the various sides are angling for advantage in the civil war.
Now with all of this known already for months, why aren’t the Democrats even now laying the groundwork for what they will do in September? Why aren’t they even now enunciating their position and consolidating their support for a policy to get us out of Iraq?
O’Hanlon, Pollack, Gates, Rice, Petraeus, and Crocker have all been trotted out in recent weeks. Bush and the Republicans are well on their way promoting their case. But where are the Democrats? Where are Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid? Caving in on FISA. Hollowing out their support in the country.
The most momentous political decision on the political landscape and the Democratic leadership is silent, invisible, clueless, and planless. They’re on vacation not just from Washington but their duties and responsibilities to their constituents and to the Constitution.
Tanbark @ 81
I had a Pakistani (iirc) taxi driver in Manhattan about 3 years ago who predicted the Sunnis would be back in power in Iraq in 4-5 years. I asked him why he thought that and he said because the Sunnis had always been in charge.
Interesting to think about but unlikely at this juncture as Shia have come too far in their power grab to be put down again.
LibertyLee @ 95
I thought it was for WMDs, or because they harbored terrists, or to spread democracy, or…
SufiLizard @ 94
Donate to democracynow.org. Best little news giant around IMHO.
LibLee @ 95:
Do you actually believe that crap?
eCAHNomics @ 105
Yep. Very fine work found there.
eCAHNomics @ 41
Every time Bush opens his mouth or his generals speak they ignore one very slaient point about Iraq….we are the aggressor.
No matter how many foreign fighters they can point to, no matter how many different variation of the al-Qaida meme they want to riff with, no matter how mych money the Saud family is giving to the Sunnis or support Iran is giving to the Shia WE ARE THE AGGRESSOR NATION.
Plain and simple. It was true of Nazi Germany and it is true of this junta of fascists.
This occupation is now and has been from day one illegal and immoral.
eCAHNomics @ 93
Rigt on. —- Malaya is te only known success, and took 16 years. I do not remember the figure, but I think the “insurgents” were less than 20% of the population, with the rest of the population utterly committed to the (British) government.
In Iraq we are agin about 95% of the population, I expect.
Saddam was ready to send them balsa wood drones loaded with bombs to Kansas. Sure he only had three- but he could build MORE.. The fact that we would nuke him back to the stone age wouldn’t have stopped him cause- well ya know- them arabs don’t value any lives- including their own…
rwcole @ 102
Well, the Israelis thought so and he really did have nukes; he flew his whole Air Force to Iran to protect it against the US even though Iran was his mortal enemy…no, Saddam was a dangerous, terror funding enemy. You all can deny it, you can write voluminous reports proving that you can’t prove a negative, but he was and always will have been; as far as the geographical positioning, forget oil, although that’s important: Iraq provides basing to back up a shaky Saudi and the heart of the Persian Gulf which is the access point to Arabia, the Persian world and the Russian world.
LibertyLee @ 97
Look at a map — your ignorance is a joke.
You surely are not still such a goon as to believe the Bus lie about Saddam, are you?
LibertyLee @ 72
The original error was allowing the AUMF to be used for the illegal invasion and occupation of another country while the idiots in the bleachers waved the fucking flag and cheered until they were hoarse.
Glad to see that we all agree that total warfare won’t work either.
Remember the original plan. It was a strongman model (Chalabi). Rummy really did want to be down to 30,000 troops within months. But they didn’t even plan well enuf to make that happen, and well, we know about Chalabi, LOL.
It must have been particularly annoying to Rummy et al when Sistani insisted on a vote!
When things started falling apart, there was no way to stop it. I thought the war was lost the day the looting began, but waited for a year to declare defeat, just in case they showed evidence of learning something. Ha ha.
LibertyLee @ 97
Ummmmm…Map:
http://www.homepagez.com/pakhi…..st-map.gif
SufiLizard @ 96
A lot of those newspapers are parts of chains. The ones that aren’t, are low-circulation and come out maybe as often as three days a week.
maunga @ 102
Some people drank ALL the koola*d.
Liberty Lee, are serious?
If Chalabi went for a walk on a Baghdad street with a bodyguard less than platoon-size, there would be fatal traffic accidents from the insurgents racing to be the first ones to get at him.
Even the Shiites don’t like him that much.
Until he was hand-picked by the neo-cons like Perle and Wolfowitz, to be the new leader of Iraq (what wizards they were!) he not BEEN in Iraq (except for the Kurdish portion) in 25 YEARS. Do you think Al Sadr with what Saddam did to HIS family would hold still for a Chalabi regime?
I remind, Moqtada will have some small say in the matter of who runs Iraq.
When ANYONE says “let’s have bush pick someone else.” They’re ignoring the fact that NO government can survive, nor even function, if it’s dependent on the american occupation of the country for it’s existence.
If there WAS a level of stability that would permit that, signing off on an ongoing presence in those superbases, the “fortress america’s” would be the kiss of death. There would be permanent insurgency, and just as now, it would cut across sectarian lines.
It’s just a fantasy that bush even has option of changing “governments” there.
The Brits are “vestigial”? Most of the oil revenues that go to Baghdad, are generated in the south, from those huge fields around Basra.
The power grid collapse is partly due to the fact that the provinces have pulled the contributions from THEIR stations, out of the national grid.
No Brits to back up the Iraqi “government” forces in Basra, equals the oil revenue faucets being torqued down in Basra. (It is also going to equal some heavy street-fighting, as the militia vie for power.)
“Vestigial” At this point, the brits have at least one of george bush’s nads in their hands. Video clips of Brit soldiers emplaning for home, and GETTING home to welcomes from their loved ones, will be daggers to bush and co. We probably won’t see them on FoxNews or CNN right away, but they’ll be a pretty good mine canary. When we DO start seeing them it will mean that the MSM has stopped culling their stories to cover bush’s ass.
Lee, I also note that you had nothing to say about the likely increase in violence if bush engineers some kind of coup in favor of a strongman. Does that mean that you think there will be “smooth handover”
Trolls. Don’t. Feed. Thank you. This has been an unpaid PSA……….
LS @ 78
Because it would be easy, and the oil would pay for it, and we would get the candy and flowers as a bonus.
Frank33 @ 119
Well, dang, in that case I should have been on board with it.
There’s still no mission in Iraq so progress can mean anything they want it to and victory is sort of a mythical thing that can be talked about but never obtained.
Come September, the Democrats will be the defeatists who are out of touch with reality and the Republicans will be the strong, protectionists. At this point, is there any doubt that Bush will keep this war going right to the end of his Presidency? Not one Republican candidate, except for Ron Paul, wants out of Iraq, so not one of them is going to win the election in 2008. But Bush will be gone by then.
Frank33 @ 109
I must have slept during the good part.
LibertyLee @ 95
Where oh where is punaise when we need him?
Nothin like givin the troops a little work out- a three week victory in Iraq- followed by a month of partyin with Iraqi women and then home again to eat all the candy.
wagonjak at 75 — Keep reading down the front page — we’ve had several on this today and also over the weekend. And we were also at YKos… Also, Glenn Greenwald and Digby have hit this, as has Atrios and several others. No idea what sites you are checking, but there has been a LOT of talk about FISA this weekend.
Let’s watch the namecalling in the threads, shall we? Don’t make me pull over this blog…
scarecrow @ 71
These guys are floundering. They’re grasping at straws. All to please a commander-in-chief who is hanging on for dear life to avoid admitting his defeat. (Pardon please the mixture of metaphors.)
But Petraeus knows and knew from the beginning. And, in September he’ll decietfully announce the progress that the Decider wants to hear. He’ll spill yet more blood for that fourth gold star. Shame on him.
Tanbark @ 119
In war you cannot predict. You can plan and then hope for the best. It’s clear at least in my mind that al-Maliki was not the best choice, and that what those who supported the war always wanted but were denied by Colin Powell’s State Department, a more military command structure to help rebuild while you did the political work needs to get done. You CAN defeat insurgencies; it has been done successfully in the Philipines and Malaysia. It does take work, and you won’t be popular, but with the objective of taking out the base for terror, that is very doable considering theat the industrial base can be controlled with the right command and control institutions. The US has NOT applied the correct military force; we can argue why; I would say because the Democrats have been pretty much stabbing our troops in the back. You will argue it is unwinnable, but the fact is that with the right tactics you can win any war with the correct correlation of forces.
Now let’s take a sharper look at Petraeus, who’s called Betrayus by the troops (for some years now). He’s the one who was in charge of training Iraqis when all those 150,000 weapons & everything else disappeared (though I’m sure it goes on to this day; we just don’t have a report on it yet). He’s the one who took 4 years to write the CI (counterinsurgency) manual, even though you could read the relevent books in a couple of weeks. And if you look at that manual, it assumes the outcome. E.G., it says things like work to win H&M, but is mighty slim on how to do that, or what the probability of the suggestions working are, and what to do if none of them work. It’s so shoddy, I couldn’t read more than a couple of paragraphs. And even if it were useful, no one’s been trained in CI anyhow.
Did y’all know that, with the exception of McMasters, no one in military did lessons learned from VN because we were never going to fight that kind of war again, and any such work would be a career-capper, which indeed it has been for McMaster who has just been passed over & is going to retire.
eCAHNomics @ 114
It must have been particularly annoying to Rummy et al when Sistani insisted on a vote!
Sir Arnold Wilson’s Report said that 130,000 troops were not nearly enough for the job. Does that figure ring a bell?
1. Armies had shorter ‘tails’ in those days, so fewer admin. troops.
2. Civilian mobility was a tad less facile — mostly camel and horse.
3. The population of Iraq was 2.5 mill., a quarter of that today.
The whole was criminally negligent and surely, surely, surely, there is an honorable news outlet which will push that fact, at last?
Meanwhile, AP, helped along by Harry Reid, the latter drunk on an anticipated vacation, spin away like crazy:
LibertyLee @ 97
A geographical presence? It was geographically present before we went in there. We wiped Fallujah off the map. Do you mean that we were going to take away their geographical presence?
Anyway, I don’t remember this being part of anyone’s argument for war, ever.
LibertyLee @ 112
Well as long as we are taking flights of fact free fantasy, what about Saddam’s deathray and his alliance with Ming the Merciless?
“Why did the U.S. invade Iraq?”
Liberty Lee:
“To rid ourselves of National Security Threat Saddam Hussein…”
Liberty, right about here, I’d like to ask you if that was snark, or if you think that Saddam really WAS a threat to our “national security”?
Because if you think that, then it follows that you think the decision to invade was a good decision, but it’s just been mishandled some. (from your posts, that’s a reasonable assumption).
Which is it? :o)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 128
But Mom,he started it…and he won’t quit touching me!!!
OK,I’ll behave now.(looking away sheepishly)
rule #1. don’t feed the trolls
LibertyLee @ 112
Cherry or grape Koolaid?
Liberty:
“Well, the Israelis thought so and he really did have nukes;”
OK- let’s stop right there- Saddam had nukes? Not even Clusterfuck claims that.
Retirin’; I’m not feeding him. Just pokin’ him a little. :o)
newtonusr @ 107
I agree that is a fine program and I love Amy Goodman, but only us already-converted-to-the-cause generally watch. We need to take a page from the right-wing play book and start buying up mainstream media outlets.
I’m not talking small stuff — not the kind of stuff any of us could afford to do ourselves, but what if we could raise several million from activists across the country? Could we start buying local television stations or newspapers or radio stations? Then we could put Democracy Now on mainstream stations and also some Andy Griffith reruns or whatever to keep people watching.
I know most are owned by big conglomerates, but occasionally a station goes up for sale.
As far as newspapers, what if we had dozens of small, local weekly pubs? These are the very people we aren’t currently reaching.
Buy a country radio station and keep the format intact, but use Air America for the news breaks instead of the syndicated propaganda.
There’s plenty of good information out there for those of us who go looking for it, but we need to find a way to feed it intravenously into the consciousness of the mainstream public.
The Right is successful because of their total domination of the mainstream media. We need to find a way to counter.
rwcole @ 139
Correct. er, Mr. rwcole is correct.
Ghostman
Biodun @ 132
Unfortunately, most of it has been to help Bush and the Republicans.
GeorgeSimian @ 132
Yaah Geog presence, fur sure. Read: control the oil fields and reshape the Middle East to remove a perceived Islamic threat to Isr*el dominance, and while we are at it promote End Times for the rabid raptur right. Its in large part all about geography (oh yes, and then there is the military-industrial complex profits).
Tanbark @ 137
I do believe that the decision to remove Saddam Hussein was the correct decision. So did Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Israel, for many different reasons. Were mistakes made? Absolutely! Don Rumsefeld and Tommy Franks admit that. We initially thought that that because Iraq was a semi-Western power that it could be saved from sectarian violence. Because the President REALLY believed in de-Baathification we allowed the Army to disband too quickly leaving a lot of weapons in exposed positions. Can it be saved? I think the recent Hanlon/Brookings Institution report says it can; we do need to tweak the political side which needs less democracy and a little more authority.
“Why did the U.S. invade Iraq?”
To get to the other side.
Richmond @ 145
The geopolitical presence and expansion of influence and removal of terror has always been the heart of the war. WMDs and establishing Western Values are other ways of saying the same thing.
Richmond @ 142
Don’t you mean rabbid rapture?
Liberty Lee needs to look at a map of the middle east,methinks.
I miss the good old days when we had won the war in Iraq. Remember the $20 million Iraq victory party. I want a party!
Christy, I’m done with him.
I just wanted him to man-up and put on the tinfoil hat. :o)
Now that he’s done that, no more poking. :o)
More AP spin:
Ghostman @ 142
The President doesn’t make that claim because the issue is past and why argue over it. But the Jordanians, Israelis, Russians and Chinese and Iraq’s own sources believe it. The evidence was there. And then purposely hidden.
anangryoldbroad @ 147
too fact-based. his head will explode.
Oh…I see…in order to establish bases in Iraq, they had to get rid of Saddam Hussein. Why didn’t I think of that.
maunga @ 146
Rabbit rapture? Rarebit rupture?
Yes, indeedy doody. And why is it the U.S. role to choose dictaors for Iraq anyhow. Would any sentient being think this would work for an instant, ignoring the morality (ha ha) of the suggestion.
There seem to be some commenters who think the U.S. should have something to say abut what goes on in Iraq. Not naming names.
Back to Moqtada. He seems to be a kind of demagogue, but does have a large following, and is a nationalist if I’ve understood what I’ve read accurately. He’ll be very important in the final outcome in Iraq.
Now it was possible to know that after the first few months, but no no no, the U.S. could not tolerate that, so they handled him in exactly the way to maximize bad outcomes.
nomolos @ 125
France. (sounds like a quip, but no…)
Since when was Iraq between Pakistan and Iran?
Where did LibertyLee go? Once he was confronted with facts, he disappeared.
SufiLizard @ 141
I like the way you’re thinking but would suggest doing things in this order:
– video and audio programming over the Internet. The start up costs are very low.
– Once the number of listeners and viewers is sufficient, add cable TV and XM radio. Doesn’t require licenses and/or transmitters.
– Eventually add powerful transmitters in Mexico beamed to major markets in the South.
What’s needed is a 24/7 network that will coordinate the programming run by folks who know how to attract thoughtful red-state audiences.
I look at the same map you do, plus I have one which has every military installation since WW I. The key is geography and correlation of force. With Israel to the West; and a semi-moderate ring of Egypt/Jordan/Saudi/Iraq surrounding the radicals in Syria and Lebanon and Iran the real problem children in the terror lands of Syria, Iraq, Iran and Pakistan can be dealt with from bases in Diego Garcia, Pakistan, Afgahnistan and Iraq. Look at the capabilities of B-52s, the B1B and the B2s and the accessability of our sub and carrier forces and the strategic aspects become a lot clearer.
rwcole @ 6
What Iragi govt?
AP – President Bush said Monday that with the right intelligence U.S. and Pakistan governments can take out al-Qaida leaders, and wouldn’t say whether he would consult first with Pakistan before ordering U.S. forces to act on their own.
Biodun @ 155
It happened after Bush lost it.
JF @ 161
Kinda like vampires & sunlight… ;)
Nola Sue @ 158
Mon vieux punaise can be online there as well. No matter where you are in the world, the Internet is always accessible, even in Patagonia or Mongolia.
SufiLizard @ 139
Where’s the money coming from to buy up these media properties? I think donations to things like ActBlue total in the low millions at most, so even if all those donations were diverted to media, you couldn’t buy much.
For Gawd’s sake, just start the discussions. “Here you go Moqtada,we are going to give you Shi’a Land!” “Here you go, (Pick one) — Allawi, here is Sunni Land.” Kurdistan is fixed.
“Now All three of you, the discussion, Gents, is quite narrow. Geography and power prevent any single on of you of controlling the oil completely. Work it out immediately or we shall give you all to Turkey! You have one month.
Other posters need to know that I am under constant moderation, so that there is a delay between the time that you can make an allegation and my answer appears. I have tried to establish a record of politeness, but my “moderation delay” does inhibit conversation.
Nola Sue @ 159
Ah, [who needs] Liberty Lee has joined us. How delightful.
JF @ 154
Nah, the clock ran out!
JF @ 161
Let’s play nice. Liberty Lee has entered to weigh his side, too. Right or wrong, if it’s civil, he is entitled.
Way.Too.Much.Troll.Feeding.Going.On.
Just ignore it.
Biodun @ 162
Mon vieux, punaise,
otherwise
Ma vieille punaise
Leadership? Hillary? Obama? No.
Biodun @ 155
Irakistan?
Regarding what some were discussion earlier, downstream, about how our reps receive our phone calls, letters, etc.:
I just spoke to my daughter who interned two years ago in Adam Shiff’s office (Dem, Burbank, CA) and she told me that when she received phone calls she took notes. If the caller was a constituent, they logged the call in a database called Congressional Resource Management (or something like that). She said most Reps use it. The keep a file in each constituent who makes contact with the office. Likewise for letters and faxes. They actually scan each piece of mail and store it in the person’s file. Interesting.
If the phone call was specific to an issue, they would keep a tally.
She also said that he would hold a meeting once or twice a week to discuss what the “big issues” were that people called or wrote about.
Also, my daughter works for a lobbyist in DC now and said she has attended meetings and has pamphlets about the most affective ways to communicate concerns to the congress. She’s going to copy and mail some stuff to me. I’ll share when I get it.
maunga @ 162
That’d be a good start. But they don’t need us to tell ‘em. They’ll do it only after we leave.
My old boss used to say when asked why he didn’t argue about some new silly rule coming down from corporate ‘You have to pick your battles’
Could this be a case of that? Knowing that the new bill doesn’t really change what BushCo is already doing, why bother to fight about it?
From WH perspective, are they doing this stuff just to rile up the dem base against their own party? It is, after all, the kind of thing they would do.
Weapons given to Iraq are missing
30 percent of arms are unaccounted for, GAO estimates
LibertyLee @ 130
And which war was it you fought in that gave you this clarity and the bright eyed hope that with the right tactics you can win any war with the correct correlation of forces???
Because, if I remember correctly, we pretty much outgunned, outmanned, and outspent the Democratic Republic of Vietnam back in the 60s and 70s but we left there with our tails betw our legs.
As far as your glib opening line “In war you cannot predict….” I seem to remember all the wingnuts making lots of predictions especially on little wolf who actually said this war would pay for itself.
How old is punaise, anyhow?
Biodun @ 167
Mais oui! But I think he sounded like he’d be awol for a while. Au revoir…
wigwam @ 158
I would say the internet, cable and XM programming currently exist. We’re now at the stage of getting this honest content into the heads of the masses.
The missing piece to this puzzle is local media outlets. Even a large transponder in Mexico will only reach the people actively searching it out.
We need to replace the 700 Club on local TV stations with Democracy Now! or a television version of the Thom Hartmann Show.
There’s a LOT of money floating around out there for liberal causes, I’m just saying all our efforts so far don’t seem to be getting us anywhere. Maybe if we directed some of our time, money and energy into a private media corporation we could get some of the great work being done on sites like FDL and other blog sites as well as Air America content, Democracy Now, Free Speech TV, Link TV etc. out into the mainstream.
Right now all that great content is only being served up to the choir. We need to start expanding our flock (to borrow evangelical terminology).
I contend the ONLY way to effectively do that is to buy up some actual media outlets.
I love that Liberty Lee hangs around in this blog providing pretty much the sole voice on dissent among us. But I really wonder how he can maintain faith in this war after the extreme bungling of it by the people who started it – and still believe their motives, which have changed many times over the years as each one becomes discredited.
One of the reasons I love this blog is that the people here can see the real disconnect between what Bush says and what he does. If you believe what he says, then there’s really not much to argue about.
Biodun @ 160
The things they teach in vacation Bible school these days… *sheesh*
Oklahoma kiddo @ 173
And Petraeus was in charge of training Iraqi troops when those particular weapons went missing.
I have always thought ‘punaise’ a lady because of the feminine handle……
OT..But Rove must love all of the sniping and infighting among the Dems and Lefty Blogs..He is getting just what he wanted out of the FISA disaster.
From TalkLeft:
Matt Stoller pens a diary that I find troubling and a vicious cheap shot at the ACLU:
Why did this bill happen suddenly this week, with little warning? Why did it create a situation where activists had basically no time to act? Where was the communications breakdown? I’ve hinted before at the rank incompetence of Anthony Romero’s ACLU. . . . We saw that their narrow legalistic strategy failed here (as it often does). The ACLU should have been coordinating with the liberal House leadership on bills like this, giving outsiders weeks of notice so organizing can actually happen. We may not have been able to stop the bill, but at least we as a movement could have fought the fight. That this did not happen suggests an immense and unforgivable incompetence at the ACLU.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2007/8/6/14447/93882
Our anger needs to be directed at the enemy.
eCAHNomics @ 171
I just feel so much better now – the adults are in charge.
I’m sure I missed this in earlier threads – but does anyone have a link to how everyone voted on the FISA fiasco on Saturday?
Thank you!
This whole business is going to end in military and fiscal disaster. The Democrats could have minimized the damage, but as Hugh above says, they are doing a Kabuki play on this because unlike the Republicans, who truly despise the public, the Democrats simply don’t trust them. We no longer have a democratic system.
The Democrats would like to take us out of the war, but don’t know how. The end game will be financial collapse, because at some point the Japanese and the Chinese are going to stop lending money to support our misbegotten imperial venture. The Libertylee’s can rail all they want about how our manifest destiny is to dominate the Middle East, but they ought to know that money talks, and it’s no longer our money that does the talking.
Nola Sue @ 159
That’s just where he says he is. I suspect he’s gone back to Remulak for further instructions.
james @ 183
demi @ 169
Thank you. Very useful information. I have noticed them doing exactly what you said when I made my calls today.
Maybe someone could do awhole post on this, or keep it in a reference file somewhere, so your info does not get lost in a comments thread.
Steve-AR @ 181
Well some of us are feeling more and more uncertain as to whether the Democratic leadership is not part of the enemy
Dee @ 183
google seems to be able to find it. If not, ask again & I’ll figure it out.
LibertyLee @ 147
I’m also curious to know what Liberty Lee thinks of how this war fits in with general Republican ideology, like small government or staying out of other people’s countries. Isn’t there a disconnect between the amount we’ve spent on this war compared to the amount of protection this war has provided? Isn’t this war really just Big Government on a massive scale where our country actually gets none of the benefits?
Biodun @ 154
In the Dictionary!
eCAHNomics @ 181
He’s in his 40s, je crois…
Steve-AR @ 191
Excellent reminder, Steve. Thank you.
But does the DCCC have to make it so hard to get along? (See me @ 52)
GeorgeSimian @ 123
maunga @ 186
A dude for sure… Last time I checked.
eCAHNomics @ 164
I never said it would be EASY or QUICK. We’d have to start small and grow. Sinclair or Clear Channel didn’t happen overnight.
A few million might buy our first outlet, TV or Radio station. Then if we managed it well we could be profitable and reinvest our profits into buying up more.
As has been said, this ain’t a sprint. This wouldn’t be a non-profit, but our activist “donors” would actually be our stockholders.
Again, I’m just brainstorming here, I haven’t worked out all the details. But I really feel things won’t change until we change the culture — and to do that we have to change the inputs into people’s minds.
maunga @ 187
That’s what we’re all wondering today.
Biodun @ 194
Why the female handle?
Biodun @ 160
First there was a war with Afghanistan/Pakistan, then there was a war with Iraq. Next, there will be a war with Iran. It’s a timeline deal in the neo-con world.
Steve-AR @ 183
Stoller is just learning from the Republicans. Pelosi, Reid, and the Democrats blew it so, of course, it is the ACLU’s fault.
LibertyLee @ 164
Liberty Lee, although we have differing perspectives, you have always been polite. It is perfectly okay to explore each other’s points-of-view. JMHO
eCAHNomics @ 194
Welcome. I did save it to a notepad page so that I could share it again at LateNight. When I get the copied pamphlets, I’ll scan and send them to CHS. For example, Katie said that they paid less attention to mass-emailed or faxed letters. Better to send them individually. Just saying.
Okay, one more. I can’t help myself. :o)
“…because Saddam had nukes…”
RWCole: “Not even clusterfuck claims that.”
Liberty Lee: (strange moniker, all things considered…)
“The president doesn’t make that claim because the issue is past and why argue over it.”
No, Liberty, you WISH it was past.
A gigantic lie the size of Mr. Rushmore, won’t fit under the denial-rug.
Besides, to the families of 3600-plus dead american troops, and the families of a half-million-plus dead Iraqis (and counting) I’ve got $20 bucks that says it’s worth arguing about.
How many Hillary’s does it take to make one Sean Penn?
Aug 6, 2:44 PM EDT
Sean Penn, Who Visited Venezuela Last Week, Shows Idealism Through Political Activism
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Sean Penn has experienced backlash for talking openly about his political beliefs, but sees such discussion as more respectable than promoting movies.
Penn, 46, has bitterly criticized President Bush, toured Iraq to observe the war there and helped rescue workers with door-to-door searches for survivors after Hurricane Katrina swamped New Orleans.
When asked if he wants the United States to win the war in Iraq, Penn replies: “I think we’re past that point in human evolution where there’s such a thing as winning wars.”
He met with Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez last week, the latest in a series of celebrities and public figures to visit Chavez, including Danny Glover, Harry Belafonte and Cindy Sheehan, who became a peace activist after her soldier son was killed in Iraq.
Heard a story last week on NPR that noted how well body shops are doing in Bagdad.
Now that’s progress: fixing bullet riddled pick-ups.
maunga @ 207
I think Mrs. Punaise bugged him to do it!
maunga @ 203
punaise: He owns a company called 3Sivund–Inverted mirror: You’re on the other side. Get it?
LibertyLee @ 166
don’t feed trolls… especially paranoid ones.
mc @ 210
NPR has been providing suspiciously optimistic stories about the recent surge. Suspicious because of how perfectly they fit into the WH talking points.
LS @ 200
Point taken Liberty Lee. I was not aware of the issues. Apologies (it seems to be my day for that, huh LS?). As LS said, you are generally polite and your postings here do usually add to the conversation. Those who do not wish to read your comments are free to ignore them.
Richmond @ 145
There was no terrorism in Iraq (except for U.S. sanctions) before the U.S. invasion, just as there were no WMDs. And installing geopolitical influence at the point of a gun is just as ridiculous as installing western values at the point of a gun. However you phrase it, W had a non-solution for a non-cause.
Hugh at 208 — Actually, Stoller has a point in that the ACLU was tracking that legislation and failed to notify a lot of us that it had gone critical until it was very late in the game. The Dems dropped the ball, absolutely, but there is also blame to go around elsewhere — and some of it goes to the ACLU on this one. Some of it also goes to bloggers, including myself, who didn’t see this coming until much later than I should have, late notification on it from third parties notwithstanding…
GeorgeSimian @ 218
I couldn’t tell if the irony was intended or not.
maunga @ 199
In French, gender is on the noun, not the person. Someone once told me that the French philosopher Roland Barthes used to like to address male guests at cocktail parties with some feminine noun like “eminence” so that he could then refer to them using the feminine form “elle”.
maunga @ 192
You work with what you have and try to improve it. I send money directly to progressive candidates and hope for a better Dem Party. With the present situation, however, we need to be “Yellow Dog” Dems.
mc @ 214
Neokeynsianism – think he suggested digging holes & filling them up.
We’re obviously not shooting up enough vehicles yet, though, since the Iraq unemployement rate is 60% or so.
BTW, did you know it takes the U.S. 250,000 bullets to kill just one Iraqi? I don’t know how that disaggregates for insurgents, regular guys, old folks, children.
Jane has a fresh thread for everyone…
Eureka Springs @ 86
all part of the master plan. just wait until the bill comes due for the babyboomers (SOc Sec, Medicare, etc.)
What the hell:
“In war you cannot predict…”
Liberty. Pish and tosh. :o)
There were LOTS of predictions.
You patriots predicted that it would be a cakewalk.
Cheyney predicted that they knew right were the WMD’s were.
Perle predicted (One of my personal fave predictions. :o) )that within a year of the invasion, “there would be a grand square in Baghdad named after George Bush.”
Perhaps, Liberty, if you make enquiries of your travel agent, he can arrange a trip, where you can stand in the center of the plaza, with an american flag draped around your shoulders, and send us a photograph?
Pssst! Do not linger there in the afterglow of your little one-man celebration of the Iraqi testimonial to george bush’s wisdom and goodness.
Someone (I forget who…there were so MANY bushturds passing out rose-tinted glasses with each stein of Koolaid) predicted that the war would pay for itself.
And there were the predictions about the Iraqis welcoming us with the much-mentioned garlands and candies.
Oh. Don’t forget: The “mission accomplished” sign, while not EXACTLY a “prediction”, would sure seem to predict that the worst was over, right?
And, bush, himself, predicted that “major combat operations have ended.”
(The sacking of Fallujah, evidently didn’t make the cut for “major combat operations”. Nor, I guess, does the splurge-attempt to put Baghdad into lockdown.)
Well, I guess we should just get ready for Petraeus’ September-assessment predictions.
See you then? :o)
Dee @ 193
Senate: S1927 vote
TiredFed @ 230
House: House Vote on S. 1927
OldCoastie @ 9
somewhere there is the phrase “a fearful symmetry….”
Funny, I don’t recall the Founding Fathers wanting (or allowing) a contingent of redcoats to hang around while they pondered the Constitution.
ah, yah, William Blake it was……
for the USSR it was Afghanistan, for us, Iraq. Surrender Monkey, much?
Tanbark @ 213
I’ll take you up on it when we get access to an airfield about 40 km from Damascus that Gen. Sadr flew into it. Until then it will have to be an unresolved issue.
Liberty Lee… .yes heavy moderation here for me too. You do have the right to have your say. And you have the right to be introduced to reality.
Don’t worry I’ve been deleted for that introduction…. you can safely spread your “views” and not be called on it on here.
Time has past to allow these “views” to continue unchallenged.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 221
The ACLU could have done some general education and outreach but the rush to pass the FISA revisions was all Pelosi and Reid. So I would assign about 2% blame to the ACLU and the rest of us. The 98% rests squarely on Pelosi, Reid, and the Democrats who made this travesty possible.
Nola Sue @ 52
i sat down and wrote a similar and long email. i mentioned that he might send his people over to have a chat with Joe Trippi, Howard Dean and John Edwards.
I also said, “Where was the leadership? What were they thinking? Were they thinkng?” und so weiter …..
Myrtle June at 234 — If you “call someone out” in a way that is threatening, rude, name-calling, or otherwise, then yes, you are pulled into moderation. Which we are very clear about — this is not your own personal “insult others any way you like space” — period. Anyone who thinks it is has stumbled onto the wrong comments section.
Either keep it civil, or we will do it for you. I think that has been, and remains, quite clear for everyone. And we try and keep it that way for a reason — if you want a rude free-for-all, feel free to look elsewhere for it.
James @ 109
it’s worthwhile to recall that all the leading candidates of the (D) party are just fine with this, they just think they could’ve managed it better.
advocates of automatic support for the party of the least worst will do their best to play this down in 08, but if you care about peace and the value of human life, then ponder now how to get someone you can support on the ballot.
Did it strike anyone else that the I-35 bridge that W. toured over the weekend is a perfect metaphor for his presidency — a catastrophic failure?
Well, hell, MC: THERE is a good way to find out who the optimists are, about Iraqi’s future.
Wuz me, the damn thing could look like Swiss cheese, and I wouldn’t waste a dinar on patching a bullet hole in MY ride.
cancer_cures @ 57
Pakistan is a nightmare. It may be the most complicated country of it’s size to even attempt to manage. I’m not a fan of Musharef but the man is a genius just to stay alive, much less keep the lid on. We will be lucky if Pakistan doesn’t just go into complete chaos.
I have a friend who works there. I really worry for her that she went back last week after her vacation.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 239
No, Christy I don’t want a rude free-for-all when it comes at me either. I’m sorry I blamed Liberty Lee for their views that promote the propaganda that has enabled this Iraq nightmare for years. I will try to find a more approriate way to say a “view” is insane without calling the person insane. Hope that helps. Thank you :-)
Libert Lee, what is it about G.W. Bush that inspires confidence? Is it his lifelong history of success at everything he does? Is it his powerful intellect? Explain why you would ever follow this man into a war in Iraq?
Hugh @ 210
Reminds me I need to send in my ACLU member renewal, Matt notwithstanding. I’ll just note that with an Administration tearing up the Constitution in 17 different ways simultaneously, keeping track of them all is not that easy. Nevertheless, we’ve done plenty of posts on FISA over the last several months, and last week Phoenix Woman and I had two back-to-back posts prior to the Senate vote. We were getting messages from the blogging community that this was in the works, though not the preciseearly warnings about Matt refers to. But that would have been impossible.
Keep in mind that the worst things happened last week, when Boehner leaked the bit about the FISA court overturning foreign-to-foreign warranteless wiretaps — it’s not clear who knew what about what needed to be fixed, if anything, because the WH has been so secretive and in the past refused to consider amendments. Then on Saturday (late Friday?) the Administration did a bait and switch on Pelosi/Reid, by first sending the NSA Director to tell them he could accept limited revisions — which they agreed to — only to have the WH pull that back and send in the real trojan horse on the last day. Reid/Pelosi can be faulted for not remembering they were dealing with completely dishonest people in the WH who could not keeps a deal, but we should not forget “they were dealing with completely dishonest people in the WH . . .” We need to stop eating our own.
Frank35@83
Dude that one will have me laughing for the rest of the day. Thanks.
Swoosh, Of the bridge situation; when junior was indulging in a little “no fault” casket-chasing there (not to be confused with showing up at Dover AFB), I was hoping that someone would have a sign for the media, that said something like:
“preventing this would have taken about 2 hours worth of Iraq.”
Liberty, I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Who is “Gen. Sadr”? :o)
Dee @ 193
in the House, none of our candidates (the ones we supported) voted in favor. the 41 Dems who did were the so-called “Blue Dogs” and most were from the South, although there was at least one from Pa, and one from Minn.
Knut Wicksell @ 194
as some have said earlier, we need to remember in this discussion that there are Democrats and there are democrats. In the Senate 16 democratic senators voted for the bill. In the House 41. MANY Democrats did the right thing and voted against it. We have weak leadership in Congress. I’m sorry, but I’ve become somewhat skeptical of Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi. I don’t know if they’re just not up to the job, or what. They’ve had six months to show better leadership. It would be different if fuckwad were still popular and the Republicans weren’t so corrupt and venal but, really, last week was just pitiful.
LibertyLee @ 235
Late to the party (what’s new?)
Riddle me this Batman:
I assume you’re speaking of WMD’s?
My rhetorical questions are: Why hold them back? Why save a lethal weapon for future use? Why send them out of your own sovereign borders to another country?
Let me explain this in a way most freepers can comprehend: Say someone breaks into your house and you have a handgun a 22, 32, 38, 44, or whatever — ok — someone breaks into your house and you have the gun in within easy access in front of you — what do you do?
Do you use the weapon to protect yourself and your family (Iraq) against the intruder (U.S.)?
Or do you take the gun, open the front door and throw it into your neighbor’s yard (Syria)? And hope for what?
What’s your choice Batman?
Liberty Lee
I agree you are entitled to your opinions and to post them here. Like most opinions yours are predictions (We can win) or wishes after the fact. (We would have won in Vietnam if the leftists let our troops do what they were there to do) What has to happen to change your mind? How lost must a cause be, before you recognize it as a lost cause?
Richmond @ 11
Because they are paid not to.
By guess who?
Impeach/Out of Iraq GENERAL STRIKE SEPT. 11th!
Buy nothing – do nothing – be you banker, baker, candle-stick maker. Stay home, go to the park. Bring this country to a standstill!
BE HEARD! Pass it on.
Its so sad that people AND the MEDIA cant figure out whats going on.
2 reasons for war.
1) War Profiteering
2) Control of oil in the middle east.
1# comments
DOD contractors were drooling at the mouth for this war.
DO you think THESE people care about how many people DIE in the process ?
Aegis Video Killing Iraqis for fun
Blackwater contractors in Iraq
They WANT this war to continue
Many of these contractors help put this Admin in power
2# comments
Its NOT oil NOW thats the problem
China is growing with the increase of oil growing faster. in 5 years it will be through the roof.
Control of Mid-East oil will be crucial 5 years from now.
Insurgents are now wearing USA body armor
and the US soldiers in the feild are dying cos they dont have them.
Bush-C0/Cheney-C0 needs to be held accountable for killing our soldiers
Whew! DonR1! Can’t thank you enough for clearing THAT up. I didn’t have a clue what “Liberty” was talking about. :o)
I was thinkin’ “Is Moqtada a closet field-grade officer for the Iranian Army? When did that happen?”
Instead, my mind is completely at ease, now that you’ve set things straight, and Lee’s post just turns out to be another piece of “They’re buried under the Kaaba in Mecca!” foil-hat stuff. :o)
What’s really neat, is that now that Saddam is wormfood, and with practically nothing left of his regime (Except the insurgency which bush, Rumsfeld, Cheyney, etc., so cleverly overlooked in their “planning”) ALLLL of those backhoe operators; those truckdrivers; those pilots and grunts to load and fly them out; are ALL so loyal to the old tyrant’s memory, that not a SINGLE EFFING ONE OF THEM, has come forward to claim about a zillion dollar reward, if they could lead CentCom to the missing WMD’s, or testify TRUTHFULLY (careful now, Lee…remember the yellowcake posse. :o) ) where the damn things went.
I mean, bush would give them the twins, if they could do that.
Of course, that still leaves the petrodactyls holding the bag for the Al Queada training camps, and the single-use aluminum tubes, and the weather-balloon-trailers. Which the Brits sold him.
And, let me be thorough here;
I’m talking about the “human rights” pea. The one that got sort of lost in the “justification” shuffle.
It’s a tough last card to be down to, for your side, in that Saddam’s worst excesses were committed during the Reagan/Bush regimes, when they were happily exchanging ass-rubs with him, until he got greedy and grabbed Kuwait and all that extra oil. At which point, he stopped being their guy, and became a threat to all of christendom.
There’s also the little matter of the Reagan administration signing off on sending Saddam those Anthrax starter-kits, and who knows what else?
What it boils down to, is that you people who helped crank up this misery, have jackshit to stand on. You got nothin’…I mean nothin’…
Deal with it.
Impeachment is a mandate for liberty
Read Richard A.Clarke “Against All Enemies” a carreer national security official runs it down. Bill Clinton did more terror fighting than Bush was willing to even think off And read “The Iron Triangle” about the Carlyle Group and the blood money they make in never ending war. I’ll take Bill Clinton over all the repubs on national security. IMPEACHMENT NOW Go to the politicos on the recess and demand it. IMPEACH