TREX!!!

zed?

Tres para Hillary….?

I’ll take a dos!

Zed for what?

Ok, quatro, whatever!

Hola!

It’s Giuliani Time !!

et tu?

(whew) was starting to worry you were having connection problems, TRex. Glad to see your computer is up.

Welcome home, Trex! We missed you.

Thanks alot…nightmares…Ghouliani time..once a cheater, always a cheater. Judy’s dreaming.

Sometimes I feel like a thankless child – Van Morrison in an alternate universe

If Andrew has daddy issues, perhaps I could help him work them out? He’s a knockout.

was downstairs told?

hey, firepups, not that fdl needs any hits, but i linked to teddysanfran’s essay on y2kos for tomorrow’s guest stint at crooks & liars blog round up!

no need to thank me…

upon edit:

hey teddy! luved the rogers&hammerstein joke!

Ykos is up on C-Span

skippy @ 15

hey, firepups, not that fdl needs any hits, but i linked to teddysanfran’s essay on y2kos for tomorrow’s guest stint at crooks & liars blog round up!

no need to thank me…

WOOHOO…. let me say thanks anyway, skippy! Teddy’s always worth reading.

BigMitch @ 16

Ykos is up on C-Span

Thanks.

TeddySanFran @ 14

If Andrew has daddy issues, perhaps I could help him work them out? He’s a knockout.

You like your redheads, don’t you, Teddy?

TeddySanFran @ 13

If Andrew has daddy issues, perhaps I could help him work them out? He’s a knockout.

How could he not have “daddy issues?”

If you had a father who was as big an asshole as is Rudy and who liked your mother’s clothes a lot….

media & 2006 panel discussion

thx, suzanne!

am digging the huge blog microphone that c&l has lent me…stop by and check out the blog round up every day this week!

“Why, this is very midsummer madness”

;>)

OT: The Decider recently issued two executive
orders freezing, without prior notice, all assets of anyone
(organizations and citizens included) whom the Secretary of the
Treasury determines to

“pose a significant risk of … undermining efforts to promote
economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to
provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people.”
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news…..717-3.html

or to

“pose a significant risk of [assisting] actions … that have the
purpose or effect of undermining Lebanon’s democratic processes or
institutions, contributing to the breakdown of the rule of law in
Lebanon” or to have assisted or be the spouse or dependent child of
anyone whose property is thus blocked.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news…..802-1.html

The second of these would clearly criminalize many supporters of
Israel. And, per the Professor Michel Chossudovsky, the first of
these criminalizes the anti-war movement:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/i…..p;aid=6377

Obviously these groups are not the immediate targets of these
orders, but note that pacificists were not the original targets
of the espionage act. Nevertheless Eugene Debs was imprisoned under
it for arguing against WW I. Per the Wikipedia:

On June 16, 1918, Debs made a speech in Canton, Ohio in opposition
to World War I and was arrested under the Espionage Act of 1917. He
was convicted, sentenced to serve ten years in prison and
disenfranchised for life.

[…]

Debs appealed his conviction to the Supreme Court. In its ruling on
Debs v. United States, the court examined several statements Debs
had made regarding World War I. While Debs had carefully guarded
his speeches in an attempt to comply with the Espionage Act, the
Court found he still had the intention and effect of obstructing
the draft and recruitment for the war. Among other things, the
Court cited Debs’s praise for those imprisoned for obstructing the
draft. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. stated in his opinion
that little attention was needed since Debs’ case was essentially
the same as that of Schenck v. United States, in which the Court
had upheld a similar conviction. In the decision Holmes wrote that
free speech does not include “the right to shout ‘fire’ in a
crowded theater.”

Per Justice Louis Brandeis:

Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect
liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to
freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by
evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in
insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without
understanding.

BigMitch @ 21

media & 2006 panel discussion

Mahalo, Mitch! Yeah, go ahead and gloat!!!

Boy, Caroline is a beautiful woman. Look at that creamy skin. She has rather a Celtic noblewoman look about her, doesn’t she?

If anyone is watching c-span and recognizes someone, please just shout out his/her name.

Suzanne @ 14

was downstairs told?

I have a question. How do you make the “upstairs thread” link for downstairs, where it says “new thread”? Just for future reference, if you have a moment.

Mitch,

You had better weather in Anchorage and Palmer today than we had in Seattle. I’m not complaining, ’cause I’ve been chained to the computer to write music most of the day, so the clouds didn’t bother me.

I’ve noticed when driving southbound on the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle that people are averaging about 55 or more MPH since the Minneapolis bridge collapse. Something about that 4-mile-long massive deck overhead that should have been replaced 25 years ago seems to be speeding people right along. Next week the viaduct will be very crowded in Seattle, because I-5 downtown is getting some long overdue repairs to joints that could give. Any minute…

New Logic board-check

New battery-check

I’m all ready for impeachment. It’s still on the table, right? I’ve been lost without a puter.

skippy @ 22

thx, suzanne!

am digging the huge blog microphone that c&l has lent me…stop by and check out the blog round up every day this week!

will do skippy – it is on my must read daily list, in between firedoglake and skippy the bush kangaroo.

LS @ 28

Suzanne @ 14

was downstairs told?

I have a question. How do you make the “upstairs thread” link for downstairs, where it says “new thread”? Just for future reference, if you have a moment.

If you’re in FF, just copy and paste the url!

Hey, ET, I sent you an email about Diane Benson, a few days ago. Do you have email access?

We could run Al Sharpton against anyone the Gopers could throw at us and still win in a landslide.

As one who was to perform at Cortlandt St beneath the towers on 9/11, just looking at Rudy’s picture brings on deep revulsion.

EPU’d from downstairs: The Weekly World News is going under!

Average media credibility will be going down. Who will tell us who the space alien is endorsing?

Of course, they’re only thankless children if they actually have something they should be thankful for.

I know people like calling Rudy “Ghouliani”, I quite like it myself but I call him Figjam. It stands for “Fuck I’m good, just ask me”.

ReneND @ 31

New Logic board-check

New battery-check

I’m all ready for impeachment. It’s still on the table, right? I’ve been lost without a puter.

High five, baby. This is my first night back online myself. Whew!

Although I have to confess, it was a relief not to have to drag the thing around that massive convention center. Jesus christ. That place was about as hospitable as the surface of an iceberg.

Well I guess Caroline gets her hair and makeup tips from her Mom and not her Dad.

skippy @ 16

hey, firepups, not that fdl needs any hits, but i linked to teddysanfran’s essay on y2kos for tomorrow’s guest stint at crooks & liars blog round up!

no need to thank me…

upon edit:

hey teddy! luved the rogers&hammerstein joke!

thx skippy!

LS @ 28

Suzanne @ 14

was downstairs told?

I have a question. How do you make the “upstairs thread” link for downstairs, where it says “new thread”? Just for future reference, if you have a moment.

LS, the same way as I make any embedded link. Here is a good primer

They have identified 4 bridges in Austin that need to be “replaced”, not fixed, “replaced”…in the last day or so. Comforting…although I’m glad it has come to light.

CTuttle @ 32

LS @ 28

I have a question. How do you make the “upstairs thread” link for downstairs, where it says “new thread”? Just for future reference, if you have a moment.

If you’re in FF, just copy and paste the url!

Thanks.

Sheila is my hero! Boehner’s smug-ass smirk boils my blood!!!

LS @ 29

Suzanne @ 14

was downstairs told?

I have a question. How do you make the “upstairs thread” link for downstairs, where it says “new thread”? Just for future reference, if you have a moment.

While on the new thread, highlight the URL in your browser bar. Then copy it (I use CTRL C). Now go to the old thead, type the words “new thread,” or “Threadilicious,” if you prefer. Highlight what you have typed, and then click on Link above the comment box. You will see a box which has “http:” in it. Put your cursor there, and then paste. (CTRL V works for me.) Click next. Click next. and Submit.

TRex @ 38

ReneND @ 31

New Logic board-check

New battery-check

I’m all ready for impeachment. It’s still on the table, right? I’ve been lost without a puter.

High five, baby. This is my first night back online myself. Whew!

Although I have to confess, it was a relief not to have to drag the thing around that massive convention center. Jesus christ. That place was about as hospitable as the surface of an iceberg.

You’d think with 3 ibooks in this house we could cobble SOMETHING together. But no.

Can I just take a moment to give a huge thanks to all the mods? Seriously, you are angels. I know you’re kept busy, especially when the comments are flying, but I didn’t fully appreciate the work you do until this weekend.

I posted the Sheila Jackson Lee speech about the FISA changes, and Jane linked to it here. Then Crooks and Liars did too, and today Randi Rhodes. It’s all good, but OMG, the comments on YouTube ranged from the good, the weird, the stupid and the downright trollish. I spent a lot of today hitting “remove” and cleaning out the trash.

I tip my hat and raise my glass to all mods everywhere. You keep the conversations on track (more or less) and respectful. Salute!

G’night, gang! Home again, home again, but I’ve been sitting here reading for an hour, too tired to actually compose a coherent comment. See you all tomorrow.

Night Red.

Ed*ard Teller @ 30

I’ve noticed when driving southbound on the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle that people are averaging about 55 or more MPH since the Minneapolis bridge collapse. Something about that 4-mile-long massive deck overhead that should have been replaced 25 years ago seems to be speeding people right along. Next week the viaduct will be very crowded in Seattle, because I-5 downtown is getting some long overdue repairs to joints that could give. Any minute…

Ed*ard, let’s just say that I pray nobody we love is on it when it finally gives way. I’m sure you also saw the video dramatization a few months back of what exactly will happen to 520 with another windstorm of the magnitude we all had in December.

We’re trying to figure out how we’ll be getting to Safeco without driving on the Viaduct these days, for example.

Stay safe,
-S

Mutant Poodle @ 35

EPU’d from downstairs: The Weekly World News is going under!

Average media credibility will be going down. Who will tell us who the space alien is endorsing?

They were coming too close to the truth.

;>)

darkblack @ 24

“Why, this is very midsummer madness”

;>)

Thank you db!

TheOtherWA @ 46

Can I just take a moment to give a huge thanks to all the mods? Seriously, you are angels. I know you’re kept busy, especially when the comments are flying, but I didn’t fully appreciate the work you do until this weekend.

I posted the Sheila Jackson Lee speech about the FISA changes, and Jane linked to it here. Then Crooks and Liars did too, and today Randi Rhodes. It’s all good, but OMG, the comments on YouTube ranged from the good, the weird, the stupid and the downright trollish. I spent a lot of today hitting “remove” and cleaning out the trash.

I tip my hat and raise my glass to all mods everywhere. You keep the conversations on track (more or less) and respectful. Salute!

On behalf of the Late Nite Mod Squad, thank you.

darkblack @ 50

Mutant Poodle @ 35

EPU’d from downstairs: The Weekly World News is going under!

Average media credibility will be going down. Who will tell us who the space alien is endorsing?

They were coming too close to the truth.

;>)

With any luck, that one will find a place in the George W. Bush Presidential Library…. :)

Suzanne, you’re most welcome!

Folks, I think we should leave the daughter out of it. She has enough problems having that jerk for a father, and it seems she’d rather not be in the public eye.

Whoa…

Rudy as King Lear! Man dat’s just frightful.

But don’t worry The President got him some help to take on Osama!

Strategerie @ 50

Ed*ard Teller @ 30

I’ve noticed when driving southbound on the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle that people are averaging about 55 or more MPH since the Minneapolis bridge collapse. Something about that 4-mile-long massive deck overhead that should have been replaced 25 years ago seems to be speeding people right along. Next week the viaduct will be very crowded in Seattle, because I-5 downtown is getting some long overdue repairs to joints that could give. Any minute…

Ed*ard, let’s just say that I pray nobody we love is on it when it finally gives way. I’m sure you also saw the video dramatization a few months back of what exactly will happen to 520 with another windstorm of the magnitude we all had in December.

We’re trying to figure out how we’ll be getting to Safeco without driving on the Viaduct these days, for example.

Stay safe,
-S

How to get to Safeco? Practice, practice, practice.

persiflage @ 37

I quite like it myself but I call him Figjam. It stands for “Fuck I’m good, just ask me”.

Persiflage, my husband works for a company owned by Australians. “Figjam” was one of the first phrases they taught us, closely followed by “Go on, you good thing”!

-S

Well, I think I will call it a night. Take care and enjoy the snark.

g’nite dr (pause)dick

Wigwam @ 25: That was really great stuff about Debs, WWI, free speech, Holmes, and Brandeis. Wow. I knew that First Amendment doctrine was primitive back in those days, but Holmes? Had no idea his “fire in a crowded theater” phrase was issued in the Debs case. When did Holmes have his epiphany?

Figjam. I’m using that. Oh yeah.

Subway Serenade @ 35

We could run Al Sharpton against anyone the Gopers could throw at us and still win in a landslide.

As one who was to perform at Cortlandt St beneath the towers on 9/11, just looking at Rudy’s picture brings on deep revulsion.

Timely point you make regarding our upcoming landslide, as Harold Ford Jr and Martin O’Malley are warning against anything but centrism in a shoddily illogical Op-Ed in tomorrow’s Pravda on the Potomac:

With President Bush and the Republican Party on the rocks, many Democrats think the 2008 election will be, to borrow a favorite GOP phrase, a cakewalk. Some liberals are so confident about Democratic prospects that they contend the centrism that vaulted Democrats to victory in the 1990s no longer matters.

The temptation to ignore the vital center is nothing new. Every four years, in the heat of the nominating process, liberals and conservatives alike dream of a world in which swing voters don’t exist. Some on the left would love to pretend that groups such as the Democratic Leadership Council, the party’s leading centrist voice, aren’t needed anymore.

But for Democrats, taking the center for granted next year would be a greater mistake than ever before. George W. Bush is handing us Democrats our Hoover moment. Independents, swing voters and even some Republicans who haven’t voted our way in more than a decade are willing to hear us out. With an ambitious common-sense agenda, the progressive center has a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to win back the White House, expand its margins in Congress and build a political and governing majority that could last a generation.

blah blah blah corporatist bullshit blah don’t mention we’ve both endorsed Hillary blah blah blah

BigMitch wrote: How to get to Safeco? Practice, practice, practice.

LOL!

Seriously, wouldn’t the crumbling infrastructure be enough to keep the congresscritters in Washington through August figuring out what to do, let alone the FISA debacle?

I know I’m confused…

-S

Maybe I’m just touchy cause my ex-husband decided once he got a new family that my daughter, the only product of his first marriage was disposable, but my opinion of any man that puts a new wife before a child is that he is a selfish bastard. Rudy’s track record with his kids says a lot about the kind of man he is, and the man he isn’t.

Valley Girl @ 34

Hey, ET, I sent you an email about Diane Benson, a few days ago. Do you have email access?

I’m getting incoming for some strange reason, but can’t send out on my regular account. I’m going to have to create a gmail account before I leave Seattle to send out PDF’s and MP-3s of my new music piece when I finish it about Thursday.

I was hoping you’d stop by so I could let you know what’s up. Diane is up against the old school Dem machine, and we’ll need all he help we can get. I tried to start her ActBlue page before I came down to Seattle, but they weren’t running it yet, last I checked. I’m going to Diane’s regular weekly volunteer meeting in Anchorage on the 13th, so I’ll pass on your encouragement and that of others here that I’ve noted.

Big Mitch says the Dem machine will be unkind to Diane. Actually he said they’ll screw her any chance they get, because she’s an outsider. She’s also an Alaska Native and both party’s machines have always felt people of color look real good in the second slot on a ticket or as a state Representative or Senator in a largely Native or African-American district. Period.

I got this message from Andrea Lang, Diane’s interim campaign co-ordinator:

Diane Benson received a standing ovation after addressing the weekly gathering of the Bartlett Democratic Club at the Debarr Denneys on Thursday, August 2nd. Diane’s topic was “Corruption, Election and Politics”. The packed full house was very overwhelmingly receptive to Diane’s impassioned remarks on empowering Democrats and her views on subjects ranging from the most recent Minneapolis bridge collapse, the health care crisis and social security to veterans and military concerns.

Diane’s already creamed one Metcalfe – Ray – in the 2006 primary, and she’s going to cream another one – Jake – in 2008. Howie’s waiting for Diane to get it together, last he told me.

OTOH, it is okay to yell “Theater” in a crowded firehouse.

On a more serious note, I found this site helpful in explaining the FISA debacle.

TRex @ 38

Although I have to confess, it was a relief not to have to drag the thing around that massive convention center. Jesus christ. That place was about as hospitable as the surface of an iceberg.

The Hyatt was hideous retro eighties smegma and yet my heart always sank as I left it for McCormickville. Every time.

GabrielOak @ 62

Wigwam @ 25: That was really great stuff about Debs, WWI, free speech, Holmes, and Brandeis. Wow. I knew that First Amendment doctrine was primitive back in those days, but Holmes? Had no idea his “fire in a crowded theater” phrase was issued in the Debs case. When did Holmes have his epiphany?

I too was shocked at Holmes. (Apparently they were afraid that Debs and other pacifists would dry up the supply of recruits.)

I’ve been arguing with a friend who see nothing wrong with those Exec Orders because they aren’t targeted at U.S. citizens and besides we can fight them in court. I wrote that up by way of arguing with him and thought folks here might enjoy it.

Suz- thanks to you and all of the mods for the work that you do. Because of that hard work, FDL commenters are able to talk all kinds of issues that would drive other sites to issue general bans on many topics that are just too troublesome to discuss. The mods really do deserve kudos, for having the good sense to allow discussion on many difficult issues to continue in a polite, informed and respectful way, issues that might turn into flame wars on other sites.

BigMitch @ 58

How to get to Safeco? Practice, practice, practice.

Isaac Stern said THAT?

Strategerie @ 58

persiflage @ 37

I quite like it myself but I call him Figjam. It stands for “Fuck I’m good, just ask me”.

Persiflage, my husband works for a company owned by Australians. “Figjam” was one of the first phrases they taught us, closely followed by “Go on, you good thing”!

-S

I’m glad to see the more sophisticated bits of our culture spreading around the world!

Valley Girl @ 70

Suz- thanks to you and all of the mods for the work that you do. Because of that hard work, FDL commenters are able to talk all kinds of issues that would drive other sites to issue general bans on many topics that are just too troublesome to discuss. The mods really do deserve kudos, for having the good sense to allow discussion on many difficult issues to continue in a polite, informed and respectful way, issues that might turn into flame wars on other sites.

Thanks, VG. All that hard work you put in back in the day built a firm foundation for the Lake.

TheOtherWA @ 62

Figjam. I’m using that. Oh yeah.

Your’re welcome to it OtherWA. BTW, which “other” WA are you?

Suz- I was the expert in Chinese spam, among other things ;)

ET: “I’m going to Diane’s regular weekly volunteer meeting in Anchorage on the 13th..” Touch base with me when you get to AK, and I’ll see you there.

Good night, all. See you tomorrow, fresh and ready for a new fight!

Valley Girl @ 75

Suz- I was the expert in Chinese spam, among other things ;)

I still thank you for it, VG – persistant is about the only positive thing i can say about the spammers.

My grandma had a saying that fits Rudy: “If you buy him for what he is worth, and sell him for what he thinks he is worth, you would be rich!”

persiflage @ 74

TheOtherWA @ 62

Figjam. I’m using that. Oh yeah.

Your’re welcome to it OtherWA. BTW, which “other” WA are you?

Washington state. The Washington with a few more sane people than that city on the east coast. ;)

Valley Girl @ 75

Suz- I was the expert in Chinese spam, among other things ;)

Is that better with A*P*C cabbage or x*n*phobic bok choy? *s*

Valley Girl @ 71

Suz- thanks to you and all of the mods for the work that you do. Because of that hard work, FDL commenters are able to talk all kinds of issues that would drive other sites to issue general bans on many topics that are just too troublesome to discuss. The mods really do deserve kudos, for having the good sense to allow discussion on many difficult issues to continue in a polite, informed and respectful way, issues that might turn into flame wars on other sites.

What Valley Girl said.

TheOtherWA @ 80

persiflage @ 74

Your’re welcome to it OtherWA. BTW, which “other” WA are you?

Washington state. The Washington with a few more sane people than that city on the east coast. ;)

Ah, I live in Western Australia which is yet another WA.

BigMitch @ 77

ET: “I’m going to Diane’s regular weekly volunteer meeting in Anchorage on the 13th..” Touch base with me when you get to AK, and I’ll see you there.

Big grin for Big Mitch!

Isaac Stern said THAT?

No, it was Joshua Bell, but no one recognized him.

ET- thanks. I sorta gathered you were having some kind of email probs. I was really impressed by Diane Benson. I don’t know what Howie means by waiting for her to get it together. When you get back to email, let me know. My attitude about BA candidates- if they win, great. If not, what they have done to spread the progressive message is equally worthy of our support. I gave $$ to Benson, tks to you and eg, and would happily do so again.

wigwam @ 70

GabrielOak @ 62

Wigwam @ 25: That was really great stuff about Debs, WWI, free speech, Holmes, and Brandeis. Wow. I knew that First Amendment doctrine was primitive back in those days, but Holmes? Had no idea his “fire in a crowded theater” phrase was issued in the Debs case. When did Holmes have his epiphany?

I too was shocked at Holmes. (Apparently they were afraid that Debs and other pacifists would dry up the supply of recruits.)

I’ve been arguing with a friend who see nothing wrong with those Exec Orders because they aren’t targeted at U.S. citizens and besides we can fight them in court. I wrote that up by way of arguing with him and thought folks here might enjoy it.

Thank you, certainly did. You know, they could sentence Debs to ten years for supposedly violating the Espionage Act of 1917 when he gave speeches against the war, but the same Act is still on the books today, I believe, and you can’t touch Darth Cheney or Scooter Libby with it. I wish Fitz were here to explain that one.

Re Massa’a primary opponent droping out:
localpaper had article- Kuhl’s opponent drops out~never mentioned Massa’s name in entire article.
I thought it was very strange~any ideas?

so, all you news-addicts here, and policy wonks — What is your verdict?

Did the traditional media do an adequate job of explaining the FISA fuckery?

Ed*ward Teller
A few weeks ago you posted a link to a rag that you had composed. I had trouble getting back into FDL to tell you how very much I enjoyed it. I grew up listening to an English pianist called Winifred Atwell who played lots of rags. What a wonderful talent you have and thank you for bringing back some wonderful memories.

TRex @ 86

Isaac Stern said THAT?

No, it was Joshua Bell, but no one recognized him.

According to Wiki it was arthur rubenstein.

persiflage @ 73

Persiflage, I met the rum bottle with the bear on it the other day. Have I mentioned that I love Australia, and I’ve never even been there?

-S

BigMitch @ 90

so, all you news-addicts here, and policy wonks — What is your verdict?

Did the traditional media do an adequate job of explaining the FISA fuckery?

Did MSM cover that one? I hadn’t noticed. Maybe someone has a link.

One is tempted to write “it’s starting” but perhaps it’s more accurate to write that “we are starting to be told.”

As British Leave, Basra Deteriorates
Violence Rises in Shiite City Once Called a Success Story
By Karen DeYoung and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 7, 2007; Page A01

As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq’s Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.

Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by “the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors,” a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.

Recall Dick’s hail of Basra only six months ago:

After Saddam Hussein was overthrown in April 2003, British forces took control of the region, and the cosmopolitan port city of Basra thrived with trade, arts and universities. As recently as February, Vice President Cheney hailed Basra as a part of Iraq “where things are going pretty well.”

They lie.

Then they lie some more.

And when you’re not listening, they lie again.

Then they start lying anew.

persiflage @83

Ah, I live in Western Australia which is yet another WA.

Cool! We’ll have to compare notes sometime. Unfortunately, work starts early tomorrow, and I have to get to bed. Sweet dreams, everyone.

TeddySanFran @ 94

One is tempted to write “it’s starting” but perhaps it’s more accurate to write that “we are starting to be told.”

As British Leave, Basra Deteriorates
Violence Rises in Shiite City Once Called a Success Story
By Karen DeYoung and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 7, 2007; Page A01

As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq’s Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.

Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by “the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors,” a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.

Recall Dick’s hail of Basra only six months ago:

After Saddam Hussein was overthrown in April 2003, British forces took control of the region, and the cosmopolitan port city of Basra thrived with trade, arts and universities. As recently as February, Vice President Cheney hailed Basra as a part of Iraq “where things are going pretty well.”

They lie.

Then they lie some more.

And when you’re not listening, they lie again.

Then they start lying anew.

Because they spin their own reality…

Eureka Springs @ 81

Valley Girl @ 75

Suz- I was the expert in Chinese spam, among other things ;)

Is that better with A*P*C cabbage or x*n*phobic bok choy? *s*

Sorry, even tho that is something I gave spec*ai* focus to, I have never ordered take-out online.

BigMitch @ 68

OTOH, it is okay to yell “Theater” in a crowded firehouse.

On a more serious note, I found this site helpful in explaining the FISA debacle.

Thanks, Mitch.

It seem to me that the current FISA fix gives Bush carte blanche to tap everything. “It always reasonable to suspect. How do you know that this traffic isn’t being relayed overseas?”

Ultimately, we’ll probably have to treat traffic that crosses the border like cellphone traffic. There’s no legal protection for traffic that involves a cellphone at either end.

Well, I don’t know about Barack Obama, but I hope Caroline will support the Democratic nominee: Edwards or Gore. *wishful thinking*

Valley Girl @ 87

ET- thanks. I sorta gathered you were having some kind of email probs. I was really impressed by Diane Benson. I don’t know what Howie means by waiting for her to get it together. When you get back to email, let me know. My attitude about BA candidates- if they win, great. If not, what they have done to spread the progressive message is equally worthy of our support. I gave $$ to Benson, tks to you and eg, and would happily do so again.

Diane isn’t a techie. She was president ogf the Alaska Native Sisterhood (she’s stepped down this year to devote more time to her campaign), is heavily involved in researching women’s issues, especially those having to do with women of color, preserving the traditional values of her Tlingit people, and writing things down by hand. She’s somewhat savvy on computers and the web, but it is sometimes an uphill battle getting her to trust what is happening in the netroots nationally. From her perspective, and from the Alaska perspective in general, the web is something different than what many of us here are understanding it is becoming. Rather rapidly. I’m not complaining about Howie. He has the patience of, well, of Howie Klein.

Subway Serenade @ 94

BigMitch @ 90

so, all you news-addicts here, and policy wonks — What is your verdict?

Did the traditional media do an adequate job of explaining the FISA fuckery?

Did MSM cover that one? I hadn’t noticed. Maybe someone has a link.

I wouldn’t know (which is why I asked.) I don’t watch tradmed, except K.O. and c-span

However, I happened to catch Lehrer show on PBS (Newshour) and it had a good debate. Reich was represented by a lawyer who was formerly with NSC or some such, and the anti-Chamberlain position was represented by a woman for the Center for National Security Studies. This is the group whose link I posted at #68 supra.

Strategerie @ 93

persiflage @ 73

Persiflage, I met the rum bottle with the bear on it the other day. Have I mentioned that I love Australia, and I’ve never even been there?

You need to watch out for the the Overproof version, it’s a killer. And how Australian is it to use a polar bear as the logo for a bottle of rum?

-S

Suzanne @ 79

Valley Girl @ 75

Suz- I was the expert in Chinese spam, among other things ;)

I still thank you for it, VG – persistant is about the only positive thing i can say about the spammers.

Chinese spam? Intriguing. Qu’est-ce que c’est? Or should I not ask?

wigwam @ 99

BigMitch @ 68

OTOH, it is okay to yell “Theater” in a crowded firehouse.

On a more serious note, I found this site helpful in explaining the FISA debacle.

Thanks, Mitch.

It seem to me that the current FISA fix gives Bush carte blanche to tap everything. “It always reasonable to suspect. How do you know that this traffic isn’t being relayed overseas?”

Ultimately, we’ll probably have to treat traffic that crosses the border like cellphone traffic. There’s no legal protection for traffic that involves a cellphone at either end.

Heh, ‘You have communication problems, you need to pull over so we can mine your sim chip!’ I’m sure the Border Patrol would utilize it!!!

GabrielOak @ 88

wigwam @ 70

I too was shocked at Holmes. (Apparently they were afraid that Debs and other pacifists would dry up the supply of recruits.)

I’ve been arguing with a friend who see nothing wrong with those Exec Orders because they aren’t targeted at U.S. citizens and besides we can fight them in court. I wrote that up by way of arguing with him and thought folks here might enjoy it.

Thank you, certainly did. You know, they could sentence Debs to ten years for supposedly violating the Espionage Act of 1917 when he gave speeches against the war, but the same Act is still on the books today, I believe, and you can’t touch Darth Cheney or Scooter Libby with it. I wish Fitz were here to explain that one.

Per Fitz at Libby’s indictment:

And all I’ll say is that if national defense information which is involved because her affiliation with the CIA, whether or not she was covert, was classified, if that was intentionally transmitted, that would violate the statute known as Section 793, which is the Espionage Act.

That is a difficult statute to interpret. It’s a statute you ought to carefully apply.

I think there are people out there who would argue that you would never use that to prosecute the transmission of classified information, because they think that would convert that statute into what is in England the Official Secrets Act.

Let me back up. The average American may not appreciate that there’s no law that’s specifically just says, “If you give classified information to somebody else, it is a crime.”

There may be an Official Secrets Act in England. There are some narrow statutes, and there is this one statute that has some flexibility in it.

So there are people who should argue that you should never use that statute because it would become like the Official Secrets Act.

ET- thanks for explaining that. If/when you talk to her, you can mention that she got $$ from many of us, bec. of the ActBlue page. (And, I got a thank you letter back!) Maybe that will help. And, that her message will resonate beyond Alaska.

Damn, it’s a repeat on TDS.

I’m bidding another fond adieu to the Lake! Aloha Oe, Ya’ll!!! 8-)

:( TDS is a rerun. Are they on recess for the month of August with everyone else?

CTuttle @ 109

I’m bidding another fond adieu to the Lake! Aloha Oe, Ya’ll!!! 8-)

Wait. I just wanted you to know there’s a reason why I didn’t crow about you know who winning tonight. Apparently it really pissed off someone.

And enjoy your fondu.

Hey Valley Girl, how ya doing?

mui- I couldn’t read it, but an educated person knew some of the characters, and told me most of it was, er… not anything that would pass the filter if in English.

Why another repeat of TDS?

BigMitch @ 90

so, all you news-addicts here, and policy wonks — What is your verdict?

Did the traditional media do an adequate job of explaining the FISA fuckery?

Even the blogs seemed a bit shallow, especially on the technical aspects. The best was balkinization.blogspot.com, which had extensive legal analysis and a lot of scoop on the politics. But some commenter referenced http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/…..klein.html which was some help on the technical side of things.

Millineryman @ 113

Hey Valley Girl, how ya doing?

Okay. The rental car company has not contacted me about the cosmetic damage I did to the car, while backing into a ditch. That is good. And you? I hope to keep our phone date sometime soon.

wigwam @ 105

I think there are people out there who would argue that you would never use that to prosecute the transmission of classified information, because they think that would convert that statute into what is in England the Official Secrets Act.

Let me back up. The average American may not appreciate that there’s no law that’s specifically just says, “If you give classified information to somebody else, it is a crime.”

There may be an Official Secrets Act in England. There are some narrow statutes, and there is this one statute that has some flexibility in it.

So there are people who should argue that you should never use that statute because it would become like the Official Secrets Act.

When the Espionage Act was being debated in Congress, the Wilson administration specifically wanted the press included in it. Congress refused (so, that’s part of the legislative history any court would consider in the application of the act).

Unfortunately, Judge Bates is gradually undoing that one in the Franklin/A*P*C officials case, since he’s issued rulings that include the press as recipients of information which could be prosecuted, making of the 1917 Espionage Act a de facto official secrets act.

Wigwam @ 106: Thank you for that juicy morsel as well. It appears that Fitz gave this at least a fair amount of thought. Yeah, I guess when there is so much leaking of classified information in Washington, a law like the Espionage Act would create problems of where to draw the line. But that’s what prosecutorial discretion is for, no? But the Plame leak was so egregious, you know, I mean, give me a break. It was insidious. Anyway, thanks again.

Valley Girl @ 107

ET- thanks for explaining that. If/when you talk to her, you can mention that she got $$ from many of us, bec. of the ActBlue page. (And, I got a thank you letter back!) Maybe that will help. And, that her message will resonate beyond Alaska.

VG, Diane is SO thankful for the help she got from you and dozens of others here in 2006. People should realize the minefield she walks as she tries to tackle the problems of corruption in Alaskan politics in search of representing us in the national legislature.

Although Republicans are being highlighted now, the path of both parties through our 50-year history as a state is rife with examples of corruption and ineptness. Diane, like Sarah Palin, the GOP maverick who is now governor there, is an outsider. Unlike Palin, who is an Evangelical Christian with a HUGE base of support from that community, Benson is a returnee to the Dems after leaving them in the wake of the Exxon Valdez, and isn’t White. A bit hard to explain, maybe. Maybe not.

Valley Girl @ 117

Millineryman @ 113

Hey Valley Girl, how ya doing?

Okay. The rental car company has not contacted me about the cosmetic damage I did to the car, while backing into a ditch. That is good. And you? I hope to keep our phone date sometime soon.

That’s good, watch your credit card statement though. I’m doing good, can’t sleep tonight. Looking forward to our phone date.

wigwam @ 116

BigMitch @ 90

so, all you news-addicts here, and policy wonks — What is your verdict?

Did the traditional media do an adequate job of explaining the FISA fuckery?

Even the blogs seemed a bit shallow, especially on the technical aspects. The best was balkinization.blogspot.com, which had extensive legal analysis and a lot of scoop on the politics. But some commenter referenced http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/…..klein.html which was some help on the technical side of things.

It seems to me that if it was impossible to listen in on a call from abroad to America, or from America to abroad, then all a foreign agent outside America would have to do to call another and escape surveillance is patch it through a repeater in America, which is probably available at Radio Shack. Techies, am I right so far?

Somewhat Off Topic, but, hey, Guilliani’s kid is NOT a full topic and it’s late night . . . free range rants, right?

Of White Elephants . . And Our Future

Millineryman @ 121

Valley Girl @ 117

Okay. The rental car company has not contacted me about the cosmetic damage I did to the car, while backing into a ditch. That is good. And you? I hope to keep our phone date sometime soon.

That’s good, watch your credit card statement though. I’m doing good, can’t sleep tonight. Looking forward to our phone date.

I don’t know if you followed my Maine travails, but my debit card was cancelled while there, bec. the Credit Union switched to a different “provider”. My new debit card was sent while I was away. Pain. So, after a lot of long phone conversations, the Credit Union wired me cash to Maine. I paid cash for the rental. haha. Will try to phone soon. ;)

Valley Girl @ 114

mui- I couldn’t read it, but an educated person knew some of the characters, and told me most of it was, er… not anything that would pass the filter if in English.

Valley Girl @ 114
I’ll imitate a friend of mine and say, Ha Chinese Porn? No such thing. You sure it wasn’t Japanese. They share some of the same characters you know and the Japanese are far more enterprising in the profession.

LS,
The paper yesterday had a list of about 11 nearby bridges in poor or serious condition. The one that’s very heavily travelled, like 60,000 cars a day, is in serious condition.

Mitch@122 continued

Hearing no objection…

If so, that is a serious problem with the NSA’s technical ability to surveil foreign to foreign phone calls, which, are not protected by the 4th A. and which, I think we ought to be listening to.

Now, a lot of phone calls go over optical cable, and it is possible that some of that passes through America, even if the terminii are both abroad. If so, there is a possible legal obstacle to snooping on that, too.

If this new FISA law merely closed these two loopholes, is it the catastrophe we think it is?

CHS & firepups — the “You Work For Me” tour is rollin’ –
Bill Nelson (D-FL) confronted by a blogger who
had just returned from YKC07.

Beautiful.

montag @ 118

wigwam @ 105

I think there are people out there who would argue that you would never use that to prosecute the transmission of classified information, because they think that would convert that statute into what is in England the Official Secrets Act.

Let me back up. The average American may not appreciate that there’s no law that’s specifically just says, “If you give classified information to somebody else, it is a crime.”

There may be an Official Secrets Act in England. There are some narrow statutes, and there is this one statute that has some flexibility in it.

So there are people who should argue that you should never use that statute because it would become like the Official Secrets Act.

When the Espionage Act was being debated in Congress, the Wilson administration specifically wanted the press included in it. Congress refused (so, that’s part of the legislative history any court would consider in the application of the act).

Unfortunately, Judge Bates is gradually undoing that one in the Franklin/A*P*C officials case, since he’s issued rulings that include the press as recipients of information which could be prosecuted, making of the 1917 Espionage Act a de facto official secrets act.

Ah ha. Very interesting. Thanks.

I remain surprised that Fitz didn’t go after prosecution for the underlying crime, either IIPA or Espionage Act.

It looked to me like he had everything he needed except perhaps proof that Libby knew that Plame was covert in the sense of the IIPA. But IIRC he knew that her affiliation with the CIA was classified, and his security classification required him to get the details before blabbing.

VG_124

Looking forward to our chat. I think I’m signing off. Have a nice night.

BigMitch @ 121

wigwam @ 116

Even the blogs seemed a bit shallow, especially on the technical aspects. The best was balkinization.blogspot.com, which had extensive legal analysis and a lot of scoop on the politics. But some commenter referenced http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/…..klein.html which was some help on the technical side of things.

It seems to me that if it was impossible to listen in on a call from abroad to America, or from America to abroad, then all a foreign agent outside America would have to do to call another and escape surveillance is patch it through a repeater in America, which is probably available at Radio Shack. Techies, am I right so far?

Except that, legally, it’s been possible to listen to incoming calls–even with FISA–all one needed was a warrant with probable cause (and that standard is looser when one is considering intelligence collection than when one is seeking a criminal warrant).

So, it was never about technical impossibility. It was about the legal requirements. In actuality, any signal which originates outside the U.S. and at some point is emitted at radio frequency is fair game–it all gets vacuumed up by the signals satellites (what were once described as the Ryolite class). What required a warrant was listening in on the other side of the conversation originating in the U.S.

As best as I can determine from the text of the S.1927.ES is that the Bushies want to just grab all the calls going through American routers and sample/select/mine those along with using phone company call records by entirely different standards–”reasonable belief,” rather than the previous, higher, standard of “probable cause.”

It’s never been about the ability of the bad guys to technically evade signals detection. It’s been about the Bushies wanting to evade the necessary hassles implicit in the 4th Amendment.

Argh@125 my opera browser repeats quotes so I have to cut and paste and scrape.

mui @ 124

Valley Girl @ 114

mui- I couldn’t read it, but an educated person knew some of the characters, and told me most of it was, er… not anything that would pass the filter if in English.

Valley Girl @ 114
I’ll imitate a friend of mine and say, Ha Chinese Porn? No such thing. You sure it wasn’t Japanese. They share some of the same characters you know and the Japanese are far more enterprising in the profession.

No, not Japanese. I checked that out. But, just because it appeared to be Chinese spam, I didn’t necessarily draw the conclusion that it originated from a true person of Chinese sensibilities. Spammers are very clever. I identified it as “Chinese spam” in shorthand, bec. those were the characters. No slight meant.

CTuttle @ 109

I’m bidding another fond adieu to the Lake! Aloha Oe, Ya’ll!!! 8-)

Fondue.

Montag — duly noted.

BUT, there is something that is hard for me to grasp. Jim Webb doesn’t strike me as a pussy who caved to the Bushies. Something is up, and I don’t think he was trading away a carrying a concealed weapon charge.

What could it be? I am 100% with you that for the Bushies it’s a raw power grab with a side of sow fear and “we have nothing to sell but fear itself.” But there are some Dems who went along, and it’s too many to support the “they were being blackmailed” hypothesis.

Center for National Security Studies
I have an email pal in Scotland and according to CNSS our correspondence is fair game.

Valley Girl @ 133

mui @ 124

I’ll imitate a friend of mine and say, Ha Chinese Porn? No such thing. You sure it wasn’t Japanese. They share some of the same characters you know and the Japanese are far more enterprising in the profession.

No, not Japanese. I checked that out. But, just because it appeared to be Chinese spam, I didn’t necessarily draw the conclusion that it originated from a true person of Chinese sensibilities. Spammers are very clever. I identified it as “Chinese spam” in shorthand, bec. those were the characters. No slight meant.

Yes, yes you must be right. A counterfeit Chinese. (actually I’m joking, there is Chinese porn. Although Ive only seen softcore stuff.)

Suzanne @ 110

:( TDS is a rerun. Are they on recess for the month of August with everyone else?

heh

BigMitch @ 134

Montag — duly noted.

BUT, there is something that is hard for me to grasp. Jim Webb doesn’t strike me as a pussy who caved to the Bushies. Something is up, and I don’t think he was trading away a carrying a concealed weapon charge.

What could it be? I am 100% with you that for the Bushies it’s a raw power grab a side of sow fear and “we have nothing to sell but fear itself.” But there are some Dems who went along, and it’s too many to support the “they were being blackmailed” hypothesis.

If amnesty truly is in that FISA bill, imho, that is what they wanted most of all and the bully fear political gaming to be able to keep on doing what they have been is just icing on the cake. It’s simply what they do because they can get away with it.

I often wonder why we don’t hear many corporations complaining about this because they must have an awful lot of sensitive communications across international lines.

larue @ 123

Somewhat Off Topic, but, hey, Guilliani’s kid is NOT a full topic and it’s late night . . . free range rants, right?

Of White Elephants . . And Our Future

Larue, thanks for that. Avnery is one of my all-time favorite commentators.

mui- thanks! I got a laugh from your comment. And, no matter what the language, spammers are a nuisance. Even if they’re not promoting porn. Just T*xas H*oldem p*k*r, or whatever. ;)

~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~

smapdi @ 136

Center for National Security Studies
I have an email pal in Scotland and according to CNSS our correspondence is fair game.

Continuing my train of thought from #127 above —

Sure, smapdi. That would be because in order to gain access to electronic communication where both terminii are off shore, if my suppositions are correct, then it would be necessary to vacuum up all communications where even one end was in Scotland.

larue @ 123

Somewhat Off Topic, but, hey, Guilliani’s kid is NOT a full topic and it’s late night . . . free range rants, right?

Of White Elephants . . And Our Future

Very cool. Like putting St. Bernard puppies in each of your neighbor’s kids Easter baskets. They’re cute little puppies!

BigMitch @ 134

Montag — duly noted.

BUT, there is something that is hard for me to grasp. Jim Webb doesn’t strike me as a pussy who caved to the Bushies. Something is up, and I don’t think he was trading away a carrying a concealed weapon charge.

What could it be? I am 100% with you that for the Bushies it’s a raw power grab a side of sow fear and “we have nothing to sell but fear itself.” But there are some Dems who went along, and it’s too many to support the “they were being blackmailed” hypothesis.

Maybe Webb will tell us, eventually. But, here’s a thought. At roughly the same time that all this “imminent danger” talk was being circulated, there were remarks about Adam Gahdan (”Azzam of America”) activating sleeper cells. Now, much of this is likely more bullshit ala Zubaydeh. But, keep in mind that the Bushies have been restricting any intelligence knowledge to the so-called Gang of Eight. Everyone else has to base their votes on whatever vague BS they can acquire–including Webb.

My guess is that Webb, being more of Republican outlook than a wary Dem, accepted the imminent threat as legitimate and gave `em what they wanted, in large part because he’s not privy to any genuine data–as with virtually all of Congress.

Maybe we’ll find that their impetus to enable this atrocity depended upon the sunset provisions (which, of course, the Bushies will ignore, but that suspicion might not have been a factor in the decision to vote for the legislation).

that’s it for me tonight folks. i’ll see ya’ll tomorrow night – same bat time same bat channel.

The Lurking Mod will be watching the threads and available if needed.

BigMitch @ 135

Montag — duly noted.

BUT, there is something that is hard for me to grasp. Jim Webb doesn’t strike me as a pussy who caved to the Bushies. Something is up, and I don’t think he was trading away a carrying a concealed weapon charge.

What could it be? I am 100% with you that for the Bushies it’s a raw power grab with a side of sow fear and “we have nothing to sell but fear itself.” But there are some Dems who went along, and it’s too many to support the “they were being blackmailed” hypothesis.

What is the upper limit on the number of potential blackmailees? If each had a meeting like DiFi’s with Mike McConnell, and he opened a file with a picture on top… wouldn’t that get lots of votes, with the picture changing for each ‘critter?

Loo Hoo. @ 134

CTuttle @ 109

I’m bidding another fond adieu to the Lake! Aloha Oe, Ya’ll!!! 8-)

Fondue.

If I was to be a gentlemanly lady, I would kiss your hand (make you squeamish as heck), look into your eyes and say: Not adieu, but au revoir.

Eureka Springs @ 139

If amnesty truly is in that FISA bill, imho, that is what they wanted most of all and the bully fear political gaming to be able to keep on doing what they have been is just icing on the cake. It’s simply what they do because they can get away with it.

I think you may be onto something here. Something that stinks to high heavens.

I often wonder why we don’t hear many corporations complaining about this because they must have an awful lot of sensitive communications across international lines.

Thing one: I suspect that there is an office in the United States Government that steals trade secrets and gives them to U.S. corps. Probably with a title like “Office of Trade Competitiveness.”

Thing two: They are in bed with the fascists. That’s the very definition of the corporate state. And they are scared shitless of getting out of bed with them.

I guess I dont deserve a 4th amendment just for knowing someone outside the US.

Ed*ard Teller @ 120

Valley Girl @ 107

ET- thanks for explaining that. If/when you talk to her, you can mention that she got $$ from many of us, bec. of the ActBlue page. (And, I got a thank you letter back!) Maybe that will help. And, that her message will resonate beyond Alaska.

VG, Diane is SO thankful for the help she got from you and dozens of others here in 2006. People should realize the minefield she walks as she tries to tackle the problems of corruption in Alaskan politics in search of representing us in the national legislature.

Although Republicans are being highlighted now, the path of both parties through our 50-year history as a state is rife with examples of corruption and ineptness. Diane, like Sarah Palin, the GOP maverick who is now governor there, is an outsider. Unlike Palin, who is an Evangelical Christian with a HUGE base of support from that community, Benson is a returnee to the Dems after leaving them in the wake of the Exxon Valdez, and isn’t White. A bit hard to explain, maybe. Maybe not.

My gut is screaming that a *lot* of Dem corruption is being collected – for strategic release closer to the elections..

I’m to bed now.

G’nite all, see you tomorrow!

Something about this level of fuckery is hard for me to believe. And I pride myself on being the guy who would never underestimate the capacity of this gang of thugs for mendacity.

In other news:

Padilla defense announces that they will call no witnesses and present no evidence. High stakes gamble.

BigMitch @ 127

Mitch@122 continued

Hearing no objection…

If so, that is a serious problem with the NSA’s technical ability to surveil foreign to foreign phone calls, which, are not protected by the 4th A. and which, I think we ought to be listening to.

Now, a lot of phone calls go over optical cable, and it is possible that some of that passes through America, even if the terminii are both abroad. If so, there is a possible legal obstacle to snooping on that, too.

If this new FISA law merely closed these two loopholes, is it the catastrophe we think it is?

If I understand correctly, the NSA can now warrantlessly tap all calls that AGAG “reasonably suspects” might cross the border. And I see no limit to what AGAG might be able to convince a court he “reasonably suspects.”

AFAIK, it’s technically feasible to determine to restrict surveillance to foreign-to-foreign calls and cross-border calls.

BigMitch @ 150

Something about this level of fuckery is hard for me to believe. And I pride myself on being the guy who would never underestimate the capacity of this gang of thugs for mendacity.

Two things to keep in mind… they remember the flap over Bush’s indifference to the August 6, 2001, memo just as much as do we. They want to show Bush engaged at this time, and that a Democratic Congress is not. It’s, once again, very much driven by politics.

The second? Card’s Aphorism: you never bring out a new product in August. Something is coming up in September to justify (likely) more troops going to the region.

Oh lovely. Granted, who knows. They may get paranoid enough that even my simple canadian and american mixed family would be suspect. Just because mom calls grandma over in sarnia regularly. yeeesh.

But i wouldn’t put it past the idiots. I get calls from grandma myself. (talking to non americans! doesn’t like the Shrub! SUSPECT!)

Eureka Springs @139

If amnesty truly is in that FISA bill, imho, that is what they wanted most of all and the bully fear political gaming to be able to keep on doing what they have been is just icing on the cake. It’s simply what they do because they can get away with it.

I often wonder why we don’t hear many corporations complaining about this because they must have an awful lot of sensitive communications across international lines.

—————-

yep, that’s where I am.

montag @ 154

BigMitch @ 150

Something about this level of fuckery is hard for me to believe. And I pride myself on being the guy who would never underestimate the capacity of this gang of thugs for mendacity.

Two things to keep in mind… they remember the flap over Bush’s indifference to the August 6, 2001, memo just as much as do we. They want to show Bush engaged at this time, and that a Democratic Congress is not. It’s, once again, very much driven by politics.

The second? Card’s Aphorism: you never bring out a new product in August. Something is coming up in September to justify (likely) more troops going to the region.

I don’t think that the government is directly responsible (as opposed to negligently responsible) for 9-11.

For the same reasons, I don’t believe the government would do a false-flag operation in the coming september to justify more troops to Iraq. At least not one on American soil.

Therefore, it is reasonable to entertain the possibility that they do expect something big and soon. Further, that they shared this with enough dems who believed it, including Nancy Pelosi, whom I would expect to be sceptical, even after dinner, and that these dems persuaded others. Or else they fucking lied.

Here is what the Wikipedia says that (unfixed) FISA says:

Without a court order

The President may authorize, through the Attorney General, electronic surveillance without a court order for the period of one year provided it is only for foreign intelligence information; targeting foreign powers as defined by 50 U.S.C. or their agents; and there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party.

The Attorney General is required to make a certification of these conditions under seal to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court[8], and report on their compliance to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

[…]

With a court order

Alternatively, the government may seek a court order permitting the surveillance using the FISA court. Approval of a FISA application requires the court find probable cause that the target of the surveillance be a “foreign power” or an “agent of a foreign power”, and that the places at which surveillance is requested is used or will be used by that foreign power or its agent. In addition, the court must find that the proposed surveillance meet certain “minimization requirements” for information pertaining to US persons.

Jay Leno: President Bush knew the [FISA] bill would pass because he had bugs planted in both houses of Congress.

Ha fuckin’ ha.

BigMitch @ 158

montag @ 154

Two things to keep in mind… they remember the flap over Bush’s indifference to the August 6, 2001, memo just as much as do we. They want to show Bush engaged at this time, and that a Democratic Congress is not. It’s, once again, very much driven by politics.

The second? Card’s Aphorism: you never bring out a new product in August. Something is coming up in September to justify (likely) more troops going to the region.

I don’t think that the government is directly responsible (as opposed to negligently responsible) for 9-11.

For the same reasons, I don’t believe the government would do a false-flag operation in the coming september to justify more troops to Iraq. At least not one on American soil.

Therefore, it is reasonable to entertain the possibility that they do expect something big and soon. Further, that they shared this with enough dems who believed it, including Nancy Pelosi, whom I would expect to be sceptical, even after dinner, and that these dems persuaded others. Or else they fucking lied.

They are by now the boys who cried “wolf.” Nobody in their right mind would give them any credence.

wigwam @ 160

BigMitch @ 158

Therefore, it is reasonable to entertain the possibility that they do expect something big and soon. Further, that they shared this with enough dems who believed it, … Or else they fucking lied.

They are by now the boys who cried “wolf.” Nobody in their right mind would give them any credence.

I’ll take that as a vote for option #2.

wigwam @ 154

BigMitch @ 127

Mitch@122 continued

Hearing no objection…

If so, that is a serious problem with the NSA’s technical ability to surveil foreign to foreign phone calls, which, are not protected by the 4th A. and which, I think we ought to be listening to.

Now, a lot of phone calls go over optical cable, and it is possible that some of that passes through America, even if the terminii are both abroad. If so, there is a possible legal obstacle to snooping on that, too.

If this new FISA law merely closed these two loopholes, is it the catastrophe we think it is?

If I understand correctly, the NSA can now warrantlessly tap all calls that AGAG “reasonably suspects” might cross the border. And I see no limit to what AGAG might be able to convince a court he “reasonably suspects.”

AFAIK, it’s technically feasible to determine to restrict surveillance to foreign-to-foreign calls and cross-border calls.

That’s a comfort (Not) to those of us who must make calls abroad.

BigMitch >

“… I suspect that there is an office in the United States Government that steals trade secrets and gives them to U.S. corps…”

One doesn`t have to wait to steal the trade secret, just monitor development of “stuff” using technology which is being discussed & pipe the development details to certain parties that are able to duplicate it during the process and claim it was developed by those genius Americans – beat them to the punch so to phrase it

Industrial Espionage is an old game & can be very rewarding for those with access to data pipelines of certain agencies funded by tax collections

There is much fuckery that flows from this type behavior that hasn`t really been thought about yet

Miracles happen, must be God on our side !!!

Yea, sure…

“…the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion…but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.” – Samuel P. Huntington

What’s The Iraq Scene Like?

Just Read It

That’s a comfort (Not) to those of us who must make calls abroad.

Exactly. Particularly those of us with family that isn’t american. Joy. More unofficial isolationism.

moderator I screwed up again @163. Sorry dealing with different equipment.

smapdi @ 149

I guess I dont deserve a 4th amendment just for knowing someone outside the US.

When I see your name, I think of Finland. And “My Friend Flicka.”

Loo Hoo. @ 143

larue @ 123

Somewhat Off Topic, but, hey, Guilliani’s kid is NOT a full topic and it’s late night . . . free range rants, right?

Very cool. Like putting St. Bernard puppies in each of your neighbor’s kids Easter baskets. They’re cute little puppies!

Of White Elephants . . And Our Future

Que? Ya lost me on the analogy . . .

Montag @144
My guess is that Webb, being more of Republican outlook than a wary Dem, accepted the imminent threat as legitimate and gave `em what they wanted, in large part because he’s not privy to any genuine data–as with virtually all of Congress.

Maybe we’ll find that their impetus to enable this atrocity depended upon the sunset provisions (which, of course, the Bushies will ignore, but that suspicion might not have been a factor in the decision to vote for the legislation).
========

I’m doing a lot of me tooing tonight, but that’s pretty much where I’ve come down on Webb’s vote. His orientation is different (more authoritarian), and he trusts them more.

aliasofwestgate @ 166

That’s a comfort (Not) to those of us who must make calls abroad.

Exactly. Particularly those of us with family that isn’t american. Joy. More unofficial isolationism.

Well it’s tyrannical. There’s a sense of being watched potentially. Self censorship. People in Asia talk about potential words that may be triggers. Can’t remember what they are, but the list is ridiculous. A click click sound and cut offs starts to acquire new significance in the mind.

mui @ 137

Valley Girl @ 133

No, not Japanese. I checked that out. But, just because it appeared to be Chinese spam, I didn’t necessarily draw the conclusion that it originated from a true person of Chinese sensibilities. Spammers are very clever. I identified it as “Chinese spam” in shorthand, bec. those were the characters. No slight meant.

Yes, yes you must be right. A counterfeit Chinese. (actually I’m joking, there is Chinese porn. Although Ive only seen softcore stuff.)

good you clarified that. i was about to contradict you …..

TeddySanFran @ 95

One is tempted to write “it’s starting” but perhaps it’s more accurate to write that “we are starting to be told.”

As British Leave, Basra Deteriorates
Violence Rises in Shiite City Once Called a Success Story
By Karen DeYoung and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 7, 2007; Page A01

As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq’s Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.

Three major Shiite political groups are locked in a bloody conflict that has left the city in the hands of militias and criminal gangs, whose control extends to municipal offices and neighborhood streets. The city is plagued by “the systematic misuse of official institutions, political assassinations, tribal vendettas, neighborhood vigilantism and enforcement of social mores, together with the rise of criminal mafias that increasingly intermingle with political actors,” a recent report by the International Crisis Group said.

Recall Dick’s hail of Basra only six months ago:

After Saddam Hussein was overthrown in April 2003, British forces took control of the region, and the cosmopolitan port city of Basra thrived with trade, arts and universities. As recently as February, Vice President Cheney hailed Basra as a part of Iraq “where things are going pretty well.”

They lie.

Then they lie some more.

And when you’re not listening, they lie again.

Then they start lying anew.

Yeah, but, let’s not forget, that’s not civil war, according to . . . um . . . well, you know, it’s one of yer own.

We don’t understand what’s happening, we’re just the damned who will PAY for our transgressions, never MIND what anyone else is reporting, from the ground.

1) We HAVE to go. Get out. Period.
2) It WILL get worse when we leave. Period.

And that’s it.

Period.

BigMitch @ 156

I don’t think that the government is directly responsible (as opposed to negligently responsible) for 9-11.

For the same reasons, I don’t believe the government would do a false-flag operation in the coming september to justify more troops to Iraq. At least not one on American soil.

Therefore, it is reasonable to entertain the possibility that they do expect something big and soon. Further, that they shared this with enough dems who believed it, including Nancy Pelosi, whom I would expect to be sceptical, even after dinner, and that these dems persuaded others. Or else they fucking lied.

Not suggesting any false flag operation. But, fact is fact–they were negligent in addressing the impending threat in the summer of 2001. They’re using their own negligence, then, to obtain what they want, now, by throwing it back on the Democrats. That’s always been their stock in trade, their modus operandi.

I mentioned Zubaydeh for a reason. Gahdan is probably of the same ilk. Gahdan is simply a useful idiot, and any suggestion that he’s a mastermind of some sleeper cell system in this country is laughable. But, I think that’s the drivel that the WH has been planting in and around the Beltway as happening in August.

Finally, these people have lied about everything else to get what they want, so, why not something like this?

There doesn’t actually need to be any false flag operation to assert, without evidence, that something is in progress, or that a nation not involved with something is. My guess is that Petraeus will supply a wishy-washy, maybe this, maybe that report in September, which those in Congress–even some Republicans–may find insufficiently helpful in covering their asses with their constituencies. But, if the Bushies suddenly, in September, find evidence (helpfully, with the aid of their newly-minted intelligence law) that there’s some conspiratorial arrangement between, say, al-Qaeda and Iran, sleeper cells of Hizbollah, or whatever, they get a win-win-win-win situation from it.

Don’t know what that evidence or arrangement may be, but the Bushies put a shitload of stock in September being the break point, so that tells me they’re working hard to get out of it what they’ve intended all along, even if they have to lie about it all.

They just don’t care about deceiving the public, or even getting caught at it–as long as they can hand the public and Congress something remotely plausible to justify what they intend to do. If you want to know the whys of what’s happening now, look ahead to September.

Margot-
Flicka? Finland? ..hitting wiki, imdb…
I got it from jon stewart. Smapdi was the kid who wrote in for the ‘news for kids’ segment back in the day.
(nice to meet you!)

I’ve done all the speculating I am capable of. I will say good night and take a tour of the toobz to see what others are guessing at. One thing that makes this FISA capitulation suspect is that it was mostly done out in the open. Something is not right.

fahrender @ 171

mui @ 137

Yes, yes you must be right. A counterfeit Chinese. (actually I’m joking, there is Chinese porn. Although Ive only seen softcore stuff.)

good you clarified that. i was about to contradict you …..

Then of course, I would have to hypocritically deny.

mui @ 175

fahrender @ 171

good you clarified that. i was about to contradict you …..

Then of course, I would have to hypocritically deny.

far be it for me to engender such a thing …..

Re: corporations not complaining about their overseas calls being monitored.

Actually, there have been quite a few who’ve complained–European corporations, specifically about the ECHELON program, which enables both technical and political sharing of raw signals intelligence between some of our allies (in fact, I think there was a suit to that effect a year or two ago, which was dismissed). That suit alleged that corporate secrets compiled by the NSA and analyzed by the CIA were routinely transmitted to U.S. government agencies not directly involved in spying activity, such as the Commerce Dept. And that such was done with the knowledge of participating countries such as Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

So, yes, some corporations have complained. :)

Late even to the Late Late party, but – welcome back TRex and all you FDLs who got to go the the convention. Missed you!

montag @ 174

BigMitch @ 156

I don’t think that the government is directly responsible (as opposed to negligently responsible) for 9-11.

For the same reasons, I don’t believe the government would do a false-flag operation in the coming september to justify more troops to Iraq. At least not one on American soil.

Therefore, it is reasonable to entertain the possibility that they do expect something big and soon. Further, that they shared this with enough dems who believed it, including Nancy Pelosi, whom I would expect to be sceptical, even after dinner, and that these dems persuaded others. Or else they fucking lied.

Not suggesting any false flag operation. But, fact is fact–they were negligent in addressing the impending threat in the summer of 2001. They’re using their own negligence, then, to obtain what they want, now, by throwing it back on the Democrats. That’s always been their stock in trade, their modus operandi.

I mentioned Zubaydeh for a reason. Gahdan is probably of the same ilk. Gahdan is simply a useful idiot, and any suggestion that he’s a mastermind of some sleeper cell system in this country is laughable. But, I think that’s the drivel that the WH has been planting in and around the Beltway as happening in August.

Finally, these people have lied about everything else to get what they want, so, why not something like this?

There doesn’t actually need to be any false flag operation to assert, without evidence, that something is in progress, or that a nation not involved with something is. My guess is that Petraeus will supply a wishy-washy, maybe this, maybe that report in September, which those in Congress–even some Republicans–may find insufficiently helpful in covering their asses with their constituencies. But, if the Bushies suddenly, in September, find evidence (helpfully, with the aid of their newly-minted intelligence law) that there’s some conspiratorial arrangement between, say, al-Qaeda and Iran, sleeper cells of Hizbollah, or whatever, they get a win-win-win-win situation from it.

Don’t know what that evidence or arrangement may be, but the Bushies put a shitload of stock in September being the break point, so that tells me they’re working hard to get out of it what they’ve intended all along, even if they have to lie about it all.

They just don’t care about deceiving the public, or even getting caught at it–as long as they can hand the public and Congress something remotely plausible to justify what they intend to do. If you want to know the whys of what’s happening now, look ahead to September.

They are taking it one FU at a time.

The passage of the new FISA bill by the Senate and now the House demonstrates that the Democrats stand neither for defending civil liberties nor for checking executive power.
They stand for nothing at all.

Conversely, the new bill shows that the Republican Party can get the Democrats to surrender almost any civil liberty– indeed, to give the President just as much unchecked power as he might obtain under a Republican controlled Congress– simply by playing the fear card repeatedly and without shame.

from http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..e-and.html

good to see some more discussion of false flag terror here.

the drug of fear is all they have, and the last hit is wearing off.

here is a link to a pledge to prevent the next false flag attack:

http://911blogger.com/files/Pledge2.pdf

intended to be offered to military and law enforcement personnel.

They may have already thwarted some of Cheney’s evil plans, though we may never know.

from http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/

Bush now seeks retroactive immunity for his co-conspirators in warrantless surveillance:

When Congress returns in September the Intelligence committees and leaders in both parties will need to complete work on the comprehensive reforms requested by Director McConnell, including the important issue of providing meaningful liability protection to those who are alleged to have assisted our Nation following the attacks of September 11, 2001.

See: http://balkin.blogspot.com/

WARNING WILL ROBINSON!!!!

Just wanted to point out that every time I have posted on FDL for the last two months I’ve been abroad . That would make all our conversos quite subject to the prying eyes of the NSA, as I read the current contents of the law.

And that would also include the emails back home to my family. they can follow my movements, my international banking transactions (though I wish they would tell VISA Int’l that a mundane ATM withdrawal where I’m staying isn’t a case of fraud or funding terrorists; or perhaps THEY HAVE told them the opposite?). All of this stuff would appear to comply with the new law that strips the FISA Court from any oversight role. It’s simply up to NSA Director McConnell.

BTW Anyone consider4 that some of the “terrorist chatter” that may have been used to scare the beejebus out of Webb, Feinstein, and Klobuchar was right on this website?

I recall some brouhaha over a statement “we will stop at an arbitrary number of 10,014″ being used by some guy from the Gorilla Guides and what that “meant”. Such bulldada could easily be used to generate fear amongst Congresscritters. I can only imagine what sort of stuff the moderators and filters catch, as well. But all of that would be “actionable information” by the NSA and DOJ…and it’s already over “The Toobz” long before the mods and FDL filters can clean it up.

And does “cleaning up” a post with disputable threats or violent implications make one complicit with those groups. I’d suggest that the DOJ would just LOVE to shut down FDL, dKos and other bloggers under one of Bush’s recent Executive Orders.

I was never really sure why the Yahoo! Discussion boards were shut down almost a year back (supposedly temporary, but they lied), but the LACK of moderation and the slanderous and threatening statements that were replete there was the reason given. But imagine what a field day the NSA would have on THOSE BOARDS.

And just imagine what wonderful tidbits Hillary will be able to retrieve on her grand “Right Wing Conspiracy” when HER NSA Director is in charge ;-)

wigwam @ 181

Bush now seeks retroactive immunity for his co-conspirators in warrantless surveillance:

When Congress returns in September the Intelligence committees and leaders in both parties will need to complete work on the comprehensive reforms requested by Director McConnell, including the important issue of providing meaningful liability protection to those who are alleged to have assisted our Nation following the attacks of September 11, 2001.

See: http://balkin.blogspot.com/

I suppose it would endanger our national security interests to have public hearings as to who needs this liability protection and for what assistance. Maybe a couple of private briefings would do the job.

Morning all.

Maybe you all knew this but it certainly shocked me.

I just learned, through listening to an interview with Joe Darby, the man who revealed the Abu Ghraib scandal, on a show called “The Choice” on BBC, that Rummy named Joe Darby right at the start of the first press conference on the subject, without warning him or his family he would do so, although he had been guaranteed anonymity AND WHILE HE WAS STILL ON SERVICE IN IRAQ. So that sorted him then, didn’t it?

Joe Darby’s life, as it was, was ruined.His wife was persecuted, they had to leave their town behind. This seems to me to be even worse than the outing of Valerie Wilson, who is able to fight back.Is there nothing these guys won’t stoop to?

The show’s probably on the BBC Listen Again site. If so go and listen to it.

wigwam @ 183

Bush now seeks retroactive immunity for his co-conspirators in warrantless surveillance:

When Congress returns in September the Intelligence committees and leaders in both parties will need to complete work on the comprehensive reforms requested by Director McConnell, including the important issue of providing meaningful liability protection to those who are alleged to have assisted our Nation following the attacks of September 11, 2001.

See: http://balkin.blogspot.com/

Essentially Bush wants Congress to issue the “Blanket Pardon” for all the crimes undertaken during his Administration (torture, violations of habeas corpus, domestic espionage, murder, illegal use of Executive Orders to avoid judicial “search and seizures” of property, etc.).

If Congress issues the “Blanket Pardon” then they have truly absolved him of 90% of his impeachable crimes.

And he doesn’t have to bear the onus of pardoning all his crooks himself.

Congress should simply say…criminal acts are criminal acts…and that if Bush wants to Pardon these individuals he has that power.

And then they should pas a law stating that in any blanket pardon the President MUST specify the ACTs and INDIVIDUALS (or a specified class of individuals) covered in order to provide the Courts with guidance to avoid inappropriate remediation of crimes not intended, or individuals not covered.

For example, in the case of Carter’s General Amnesty of Vietnam War draft evaders the amnesty was limited to those who had not YET been sworn into service during the Vietnam War era. It gave no amnesty for deserters, or crimes committed while in uniform. In fact, thePentagon recently acted to NOT clear the US soldier who deserted while serving in Korea…even though that service was during the Vietnam War…and the individual was concerned about his possible deployment to that theater.

George Washington’s “blanket pardon” of those involved in the Shay’s Rebellion was not actually complete. Washington stated that those who took up arms but had not committed any act of violence would be pardoned. He later pardoned some of those who served terms AFTER there had been several executions.

In both of these cases the pardons were delineated, and clearly prescribed the amnesty or pardon to specified classes of individuals by stifling court action on a specific class of crimes.

Only in the case of Richard Nixon were unspecified crimes during an entire term of office (what I refer to as a “license to kill” pardon) issued. Yet even this pardon was restricted…it didn’t keep Colson, Ehrlichman and others from jail. ASFAIK the courts have never ruled whether such a “universal pardon” is legal.

But Congress should have the power to insist that a President enunciate precisely the laws and individuals covered by a pardon. This does not constrain a Presidents right to pardon…it merely states that such pardons contain adequate information so that Courts can understand what the pardon actually “pardons”.
And Congress can also insist that the President enunciate the rationales for the public interest that such pardons strengthen. Again, this doesn’t constrain the Presidents RIGHT to pardon…it simply requires him to explain them.

Chetnolian @ 186

Morning all.

Maybe you all knew this but it certainly shocked me.

I just learned, through listening to an interview with Joe Darby, the man who revealed the Abu Ghraib scandal, on a show called “The Choice” on BBC, that Rummy named Joe Darby right at the start of the first press conference on the subject, without warning him or his family he would do so, although he had been guaranteed anonymity AND WHILE HE WAS STILL ON SERVICE IN IRAQ. So that sorted him then, didn’t it?

Joe Darby’s life, as it was, was ruined.His wife was persecuted, they had to leave their town behind. This seems to me to be even worse than the outing of Valerie Wilson, who is able to fight back.Is there nothing these guys won’t stoop to?

The show’s probably on the BBC Listen Again site. If so go and listen to it.

Jesus H. Criminey! I think that somehow we’ve got to get a Whistleblower’s Network going for people who do the right thing and have this sort of stuff happen to them.

Meanwhile Lynndie England is a legal assistant and has been appointed to the Board of Recreation in West Virginia! She only spent 18 months in the brig, much of it while awaiting trial.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap…..ngland.php

As British Leave, Basra Deteriorates
Violence Rises in Shiite City Once Called a Success Story

By Karen DeYoung and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 7, 2007; Page A01

As British forces pull back from Basra in southern Iraq, Shiite militias there have escalated a violent battle against each other for political supremacy and control over oil resources, deepening concerns among some U.S. officials in Baghdad that elements of Iraq’s Shiite-dominated national government will turn on one another once U.S. troops begin to draw down.

WAPO

cinnamonape @ 188

Chetnolian @ 186

Morning all.

Maybe you all knew this but it certainly shocked me.

I just learned, through listening to an interview with Joe Darby, the man who revealed the Abu Ghraib scandal, on a show called “The Choice” on BBC, that Rummy named Joe Darby right at the start of the first press conference on the subject, without warning him or his family he would do so, although he had been guaranteed anonymity AND WHILE HE WAS STILL ON SERVICE IN IRAQ. So that sorted him then, didn’t it?

Joe Darby’s life, as it was, was ruined.His wife was persecuted, they had to leave their town behind. This seems to me to be even worse than the outing of Valerie Wilson, who is able to fight back.Is there nothing these guys won’t stoop to?

The show’s probably on the BBC Listen Again site. If so go and listen to it.

Jesus H. Criminey! I think that somehow we’ve got to get a Whistleblower’s Network going for people who do the right thing and have this sort of stuff happen to them.

Meanwhile Lynndie England is a legal assistant and has been appointed to the Board of Recreation in West Virginia! She only spent 18 months in the brig, much of it while awaiting trial.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap…..ngland.php

She was in the stockade not the brig, the brig is for squids and the stockade is for dofaces.

I seem to remember that brother Andrew made a statement in the last year that he “had his mother’s character”.

Sorry Mod, I AM using the edit function but it keeps duplicating

Good morning, pups. The NYT has Bobo and Judith Warner today. Bobo’s having some sort of existential melt down. He’s got a rumination on baby names. Judith Warner has some honesty on the “Partial Birth” ban.

http://mgpaquin.wordpress.com/

Coffee and tea are ready, and there are bagels and cream cheese. LOTS of cream cheese. Have a good day.

Good morning!

Thanks for the coffee Marion. You rock.

I knew about Darby. Rumsfeld said he just wanted to thank him by name. And it got zero press as far as I know. They are ruthless. Not just towards enemies of America but towards Americans themselves. The most despicable administration ever.
I think I’m going to have another bad day.

Current concern is Thomas Tann. Is there anything Congress can do to save him?

Solai,

Let’s not let these criminals define what makes a good or bad day for us.

I am going to have a good day, because I’m going back out there to fight.

Let’s kick some butt, and let’s enjoy each other’s company while we do it.

Klein: “Awful lot of anger and vitriol from those blogs out there. . . “

raven @ 198

Klein: “Awful lot of anger and vitriol from those blogs out there. . . “

Good morning.

If you’re not angry, you’re not breathing.

eCAHNomics @ 199

raven @ 198

Klein: “Awful lot of anger and vitriol from those blogs out there. . . “

Good morning.

If you’re not angry, you’re not breathing.

In with the good and out with the bad. . .

Anger is energy. We need to focus.

Glenn Greenwald & David Griffin on FISA on C-SPAN right now.

I’ll give it a try, e, but no promises.

eCAHNomics @ 202

Glenn Greenwald & David Griffin on FISA on C-SPAN right now.

Beat me to it! *g*

Raven,

How is your wife doing about her dad?

solai @ 195

[snip]
I think I’m going to have another bad day.

I’m tryin’ to remember when there *wasn’t* a bad day under the rule of bushco.

egregious @ 205

Raven,

How is your wife doing about her dad?

As well as she can. We all felt lucky that he lived a rich 10 years after his wife passed away. He went out fighting and in good humor so she’s at peace in that sense. The rest is just time.

thanks for caring

(((((Raven and family)))))

Sending love your way. Sounds like your father in law was an amazing person.

egregious @ 197

Solai,

Let’s not let these criminals define what makes a good or bad day for us.

I am going to have a good day, because I’m going back out there to fight.

Let’s kick some butt, and let’s enjoy each other’s company while we do it.

AMEN! The bastards have already taken enough away from us,stolen from us and our future,lied,lied,and lied some more. They WANT us to give up,be depressed,isolate ourselves.

No.

Well crap,let me try that again,lol.

(((adding hugs to raven and family)))

No way can we let these thugs ruin our day. That’s what they want. For us to be sad,give up,isolate ourselves. We can’t let them win. They’ve already stolen enough from us.

Glenn Greenwald/David Rivkin on C-span talking about FISA legislation
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs…..mp;Code=CS

Feisty callers on WJ.

Glenn is rockin on CSPAN. He is speaking to Rivkin with a grasp on the facts AND passion.

I have hope.

It’s the “if you’re not doing anything wrong” excuse.

Boston1775 @ 213

Glenn is rockin on CSPAN. He is speaking to Rivkin with a grasp on the facts AND passion.

I have hope.

Why is he listed as a “former” constitutional lawyer?

Glenn’s awesome.

Good morning all. I really need to focus on work today so I won’t be joining in much.

I’ve been thinking more and more about how important impeachment hearings could be. Our problem right now is there is no way for us to continuously, repeatedly, visibly get out the story of how corrupt this regime has been out into the MSM. We need a single consistent forum to develop this as the gripping narrative it is and we need lots of repetition.

The only way that forum can be created is through impeachment hearings. That is where we need to focus our energy.

I M P E A C H ! ! !

Kathleen,

You often call in to the radio and tv talk shows, right? Can you give us some suggestions about how to do this, and which programs you recommend we try?

Thanks!

eCAHNomics @ 212

Feisty callers on WJ.

eCAHN -

Is it my imagination or is the airhead host*ess* giving Rivken a lot more talk time than Greenwald?

Oh, gag me! another of the idjits with, “Well, if you’re not doing anything wrong, why do you have anything to worry about?”

raven – full time blogger now?

Boston1775 @ 220

raven – full time blogger now?

Maybe so, thanks.

C-Span has “David B. Rivkin Jr”. He is a neo-con lawyer who supports torture.

Frank33 @ 222

C-Span has “David B. Rivkin Jr”. He is a neo-con lawyer who supports torture.

And Glen.

Why is he listed as a “former” constitutional lawyer?

I have always been at a loss about that. And Rivkin is a disgusting toad(y).

raven @ 215

Boston1775 @ 213

Glenn is rockin on CSPAN. He is speaking to Rivkin with a grasp on the facts AND passion.

I have hope.

Why is he listed as a “former” constitutional lawyer?

Because he’s talking about our former Constitution.

Glenn rocks!
Rivkin is a disingenuous obtuse issahole.

egregious @ 225

raven @ 215

Why is he listed as a “former” constitutional lawyer?

Because he’s talking about our former Constitution.

DING

Thanks for the clarification, Egregious!

Waccamaw @ 219

eCAHNomics @ 212

Feisty callers on WJ.

eCAHN -

Is it my imagination or is the airhead host*ess* giving Rivken a lot more talk time than Greenwald?

Oh, gag me! another of the idjits with, “Well, if you’re not doing anything wrong, why do you have anything to worry about?”

I don’t watch WJ much any more because the pols who appear do not answer Qs there anymore than on MTP. However, Greta (or Gretchen or whatever) is relatively new & notparticularly adept. Yes, Griffin’s getting more time & she isn’t stopping it. But in such circumstances it’s also up to Glenn to insert himself. He did it once, but needs training on how to do it often. The righties have been trained on filibustering air time.

raven @ 223

Frank33 @ 222

C-Span has “David B. Rivkin Jr”. He is a neo-con lawyer who supports torture.

And Glen.

Greenwald was on “Democracy Now” yesterday. I saw Mike Stark on C-span. He was quite outspoken in a good way.

Rivkin kinda sneers as the guy on the phone talks of a tyrannical dictatorship.

Rivkin argues that we have MORE checks and balances. He is now saying that Gonzales and McConnell should do the oversight. Makes this funny joke: Who would you like to do oversight, the Department of Agriculture?

See how Griffin just inserted himself? That’s the technique. Then he got the host to ask a Q, giving him even more time. Glenn is good but he needs alot more media training.

Folks – This is an FYI for Upstate New York progressives: Rep. Maurice Hinchey will be supporting the Tioga County Democrats at Hickories park (right off the Rt.17/I86 exit just east of Owego, NY on Thursday evening at 6 p.m. Hinchey has put in a censure motion which mirrors Feingold’s. He’s also very supportive of other Democratic candidates in the Upstate area, so people who are supporting Massa against Randy Kuhl might want to meet Hinchey as well.

Here is my question for Glenn Greenwald and David Rivkin

If it is determined that there are enemies of the nation within the Bush administration can they be wiretapped by the NSA?

I sure hope so.

Rivkin: “Cindy Shaheen was not surveiled.” This worthless Nazi piece of garbage would destroy the Constitution.

TobyWollin @ 233

Folks – This is an FYI for Upstate New York progressives: Rep. Maurice Hinchey will be supporting the Tioga County Democrats at Hickories park (right off the Rt.17/I86 exit just east of Owego, NY on Thursday evening at 6 p.m. Hinchey has put in a censure motion which mirrors Feingold’s. He’s also very supportive of other Democratic candidates in the Upstate area, so people who are supporting Massa against Randy Kuhl might want to meet Hinchey as well.

Hinchey rocks.

If the new FISA legislation is to be used to wiretap enemies of our nation. Start with Rove, Ledeen, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Cheney, Wolfowitz.

I like to think that the NSA might be wiretapping the real enemies of this nation, most of them are operating within the Bush administration.

New thread…

Kathleen @ 237

If the new FISA legislation is to be used to wiretap enemies of our nation. Start with Rove, Ledeen, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Cheney, Wolfowitz.

I like to think that the NSA might be wiretapping the real enemies of this nation, most of them are operating within the Bush administration.

Don’t hold your breath. Them what holds the power get to stick it to everyone else.

The quality of the comments and questions have really improved on WJ over the years.

Kathleen @ 240

The quality of the comments and questions have really improved on WJ over the years.

Kathleen -

Haven’t been watching for many years but it sure seems under bushco the callers who support him have generally become a lot more stupid. Could be an irrational reaction on my part. *g*

Hey folks, thanks for the alert on Greenwald on WJ. Watching it now.

Impeach/Out of Iraq GENERAL STRIKE SEPT.11th

Buy nothing – do nothing! Bring this country to a standstill!

Pass it on. Post a sign.

montag @ 179

Re: corporations not complaining about their overseas calls being monitored.

Actually, there have been quite a few who’ve complained–European corporations, specifically about the ECHELON program, which enables both technical and political sharing of raw signals intelligence between some of our allies (in fact, I think there was a suit to that effect a year or two ago, which was dismissed). That suit alleged that corporate secrets compiled by the NSA and analyzed by the CIA were routinely transmitted to U.S. government agencies not directly involved in spying activity, such as the Commerce Dept. And that such was done with the knowledge of participating countries such as Canada, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

So, yes, some corporations have complained. :)

ECHELON was supposedly terminated shortly after it was outed.
But there’s still ProMIS and that ain’t going away any time soon.

ReneND @ 31

New Logic board-check

New battery-check

I’m all ready for impeachment. It’s still on the table, right? I’ve been lost without a puter.

I suspect we’ll see the Hinchey/Feingold censure vote and then if all goes well we’ll be moving on to the impeachment of Gonzales. I can’t imagine anything standing in the way of that right now. There’s certainly plenty of evidence for ‘lying to Congress’, ‘incompetence’, ‘politicization of DoJ business’, ‘allowing WH interference and involvement in DoJ cases and selection of cases to prosecute’.

montag @ 118

wigwam @ 105

I think there are people out there who would argue that you would never use that to prosecute the transmission of classified information, because they think that would convert that statute into what is in England the Official Secrets Act.

Let me back up. The average American may not appreciate that there’s no law that’s specifically just says, “If you give classified information to somebody else, it is a crime.”

There may be an Official Secrets Act in England. There are some narrow statutes, and there is this one statute that has some flexibility in it.

So there are people who should argue that you should never use that statute because it would become like the Official Secrets Act.

When the Espionage Act was being debated in Congress, the Wilson administration specifically wanted the press included in it. Congress refused (so, that’s part of the legislative history any court would consider in the application of the act).

Unfortunately, Judge Bates is gradually undoing that one in the Franklin/A*P*C officials case, since he’s issued rulings that include the press as recipients of information which could be prosecuted, making of the 1917 Espionage Act a de facto official secrets act.

Possibly the worst things Wilson & FDR did was muck around in the Alien & Sedition area. They were worried they wouldn’t have the unity and power they needed to handle national emergencies.

Now, even today, we’re still carrying that burden and the modern Conservatives are using it.

Margot @ 126

LS,
The paper yesterday had a list of about 11 nearby bridges in poor or serious condition. The one that’s very heavily travelled, like 60,000 cars a day, is in serious condition.

I suspect there will be a LOT of bridges (especially with older construction methods) getting inspected very soon.

However, I don’t know if Congress needs to intercede to make that happen.

daCascadian @ 164

“…the West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion…but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.” – Samuel P. Huntington

Huntington was one of the ’20s Robber Baron railroad men and he was completely familiar with using force.

What he may have overlooked was that we were strong enough to use that force, at least in part, because of our Democratic Society and our consistent belief that if our cause was based on what was Right, then we couldn’t fail. Force, as history shows, often fails when the spirit isn’t agreeable.

Teddy Roosevelt said it isn’t a question of who will win, but whether the cause is Righteous. Even Reagan understood that.

What’s our reason for being in Iraq? Last time Helen Thomas asked Georgie Boy he just brushed her off. We have no Just Cause, at least none that shall be uttered in public.