The verdict is in and the Washington Post actually gets it right: the Democrats allowed themselves be be stampeded into passing a wholesale gutting of FISA that goes far beyond any rationale the President’s misleading statements covered and far beyond every description the President has given of his Terrorist Surveillance Program for the past two years.
To call this legislation ill-considered is to give it too much credit: It was scarcely considered at all. Instead, it was strong-armed through both chambers by an administration that seized the opportunity to write its warrantless wiretapping program into law — or, more precisely, to write it out from under any real legal restrictions.
After telling Congress and the public that the reason they needed to revise FISA was to ensure they could spy on foreign-to-foreign communications that might be routed through US facilities (to close an alleged loophole created by a FISA court ruling that such surveillance required a warrant), the White House went for broke. The New York Times now reports that the Administration actually had very different reasons to make wholesale changes in FISA:
Congressional aides and others familiar with the details of the law said that its impact went far beyond the small fixes that administration officials had said were needed to gather information about foreign terrorists. They said seemingly subtle changes in legislative language would sharply alter the legal limits on the government’s ability to monitor millions of phone calls and e-mail messages going in and out of the United States.
. . .
“This more or less legalizes the N.S.A. program,” said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies in Washington, who has studied the new legislation.
Under just some of the revisions, NSA can spy on any call you make to or receive from another country (or a place the AG reasonable believes is to/from another country), without a warrant, as long as Alberto Gonzales and the Director NSA claim they reasonably believe it involves “foreign intelligence.” There doesn’t have to be any connection with a foreign power with whom we are war or terrorist group. Just you and your foreign friends is enough. The FISA court may examine the overall process in some undefined, rubberstamp way, but it cannot consider the reasonableness of your individual case. Any pretense that the 4th Amendment applies is gone.
So you can be involved in totally innocent calls or e-mails with a friend or your cousin in London, and the government can spy on your communications without a warrant, without your knowledge and without the knowedge or approval of the FISA court. You can’t get access to what they learned or what they did with that information. All you’ll know is that you or your friend/cousin/kid/colleague can’t get on a plane. Or someone disappears. Oh, and as a result of the 6th Circuit Court overturning a District Court’s ruling that the original TSP was unconstitutional, you don’t have standing to challenge this wholesale eviseration of the 4th Amendment. No court review; just Alberto and Rove.
Bear in mind that every time you open up the comments section of Firedoglake, you are in communication with other readers in other countries. Facebook is now a venue for spying. Or maybe your kids are travelling in Europe and want to call or e-mail home. Or you order something from a Danish firm. Would you trust Alberto Gonzales to decide whether spying on you was reasonable, knowing he never had to be accountable to anyone? Do you trust Karl Rove to deal with the information they gather?
Virtually every Republican, plus 41 Democrats in the House and 16 in the Senate think saying “no” to giving the government such unchecked powers in violation of the 4th Amendment was either unreasonable or would have jeopardized their reelection.
We are a nation represented by sheep.
For more details on the FISA changes, start here and here.
Related posts:
- House Judiciary Committee to Propose PATRIOT and FISA Reforms
- Obama’s New State Secrets Policy is Reaffirmation Of Bush’s Policy
- Alaska Blogger Shannyn Moore Wins 2009 Steve Gilliard Journalism Grant at Netroots Nation
- FISA v AUMF: Bush Wiretap Program Based on Lies
- Surveillance Program Violates Fourth Amendment, DNI Blair’s Office Says





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a wella wella
FISA is subject, Glenn Greenwald is one of the guests on Amy Goodman right now:
http://www.democracynow.org/
Hi Scarecrow! Good morning.
Democracy is officially DOA.
I don’t think we should underestimate the other motivation mentioned by the Times for the FISA changes — to try and get the major telecommunications providers off the legal hook.
Caw, caw! Good morning Scarecrow. It was great to meet you at last.
Impeachment of them all is the only answer. Anything less than that is capitulation by the party that claims to be for the common man and civil rights.
Take these people down or suffer the consequences.
Marjory Cohen on DN:
This D Congress has remained terrorized by the Bush Administration.
Did anyone really think this wasn’t going on anyway?
Does anyone have any insight as to why Reid and Pelosi let this come up for a vote in the first place? I was struck in the Senate proceedings by how flustered and weak Reid looked and how clearly the Repugs had the initiative. Why is that?
rootless2 @ 10
They’re afraid of losing in 2008. No more, no less.
TO 10: Good question. On the other thread part of the discussion was about things we may be doing during the break. Any more ideas? Good Morning.
Good morning, Scarecrow:
Don’t get your straw too scorched – this is one very hot topic.
I agree with everything but your sheep analogy – prostitutes is what they are – working for corporatist, donor and lobbyist pimps.
raven @ 9
Of course we knew. But now it’s legal.
montag @ 11
They should be very much more afraid of losing now.
It’s particularly scary when read next to the NYT oped about suspicious prosecutions against Democrats.
How can you be pressing for a criminal indictment of the Attorney General and at the same time give him more power and less oversight? Politicians really boggle the mind.
N=1 @ 15
Agreed. Capitulation is failure.
I feel like the same thing happened when they voted for the war. Is it possible that in secret sessions they are telling the congress something that is scaring them into believing that this is necessary or that at the very least they are so afraid of being wrong and america being attacked and blood loss being blamed on them that they just feel they cannot take the risk?
I am sick about this. Maybe I am just rationalizing. But I heard a senator, can’t remember who, who sounded really afraid. He said something like, “after they the intelligence committee presented new information, I felt this was necessary.”
I don’t know. I just can’t get my head around it. It’s like the torture bills that allows torture. I just can’t fathom that they are letting our democracy slide into the abyss.
It’s like my favorite team lost or alot worse. I don’t want to read the papers or check the blogs. I feel there is no leader and no chance for america to be great ever again.
If it costs me democracy, I don’t want to be “safe”, but I fear I am alone in this principle.
It’s like when I am confronted by an angry hateful god in the representation of one of my friends or acquaintances…I say “I’d rather go to hell than to believe in a hateful god.”
I am there.
An excellent blog about all things 4th amendment is called Chronicles of Dissent. It’s blogroll worthy as a great topical reference.
By the way, plenty of people are arguing that we should be proud of the 180 Democrats who voted against this. You know, that’s great, except that one thing gets forgotten in that: Nancy Pelosi had the absolute right to make this a “caucus vote” and to say that a vote for this would be a vote against her leadership. Republican leaders did that for years to keep their troops in line on critical votes that may have gone against a particular congressman’s wishes. But she didn’t do that. She released enough Democrats to vote this piece of crap through. I like Nancy Pelosi, but it may be time for congress to consider a new leader. She doesn’t seem to have what it takes to knock heads. Granted, that’s mostly Hoyer’s job, the “impeachment off the table” crap is starting to wear thin.
DN: FBI raiding one of its own attys homes. How unusual is that?
Katie Jensen @ 18
It is beside the point if they were told about an imminent attack – it’s the means of data gathering that are in question. The time frame already allows for data gathering with after the fact warrants. There is no reason to break the 4th Amendment.
If reps and sens are so uninformed about the Constitution, then perhaps they need a competency test before they are allowed to legislate – a la NCLB. Wonder how many would pass that test.
Don’t you people feel like we are pissing into the wind?
The blogs are keeping us in touch so we are better informed… but we are losing ground to the fascists.
It’s was past the time for direct action and stop with this politics light which the blogs seem to be.
Witness DK07… it’s like any other corporate convention.
Time to think outside the box a little.
Actually, the economy is crashing and that will change the landscape in a radical way.
Americans can do gradual change.. they need some sort of big event to wake them up from their lethargy.
So is this about legalizing what they’ve been doing all along, or is this a brazen new step?
Frankly, this scares the living crap out of me. Should scare all of us.
So why, why, why did MY senator (Amy Klobuchar) vote for this? Why did my adopted rep, Tim Walz (I have John Kline, and therefore don’t have a representative) vote for this? And why aren’t they telling us?
Somewhere along the line, I read a thoughtful treatise on what progressives believe/stand for. One of the principal tenets was transparency. Another was that elected progressives trust the people with the truth.
So what do we have here? Regressives?
The willingness of Pelosi and Reid to grant additional powers to Gonzales after he came in and mocked congress as powerless and irrelevant is astonishing. It makes all their investigations seem even more futile and weak.
N=1 @ 22
I know of 57 who don’t have a fuckin’ clue.
A handy guide to those who voted “yes” and their home pages:
http://pruningshears.squarespa…..votes.html
raven @ 9
Yes! I must admit I expected much better. Kerry decided not to show up to vote, and in the Senate our side lost by one vote. I expected much better of him considering how impassioned he has become about the war.
Good Morning Scarecrow!
I have a relative who lives half way around the world and we are in constant touch through email, mail and telephone. I used to be take care what I said so as not to cause any suspicion for him where he lived.
And then one day a couple years ago, I realized I was taking more care about what our government might be interested in.
It was a sobering moment.
And I still worry that he’ll “inadvertently” end up on the no fly list.
Okay, I am breathing and trying to get to my wisest least emotional place. I don’t believe in power and control. I don’t believe in using intimidation. I do believe that our congress acts best when the folks voted in, vote their hearts and minds, not like sheep following Pelosi, either.
I don’t believe the answer is to use the republican process which has been so powerful of brow beating each other into submission.
I think this is one of those times that the only thing that will bring me relief is a superfluous line like “let go and let god.”
I have to believe that either the human race just insn’t meant to survive, or their is some way in which this is the proper path. Maybe the proper path is our self destruction, but whatever it is, it’s bigger than my grasp.
I am too disheartened to think about it in any other terms. I have written letters, I have made phone calls. Never have I been so active in trying to change a direction that felt so perilous. Can you imagine how Einstein must have felt as he watched them use his knowledge to for power and control?? If he could take it, I guess then we should be able to find a way to hug our children tighter, kiss them on the checks, smell their necks, revel in real life. Cause that’s what most important today.
I called my Democratic congressman about this on Friday, I’m definitely giving his office an earful this morning.
For all the good it will do. We should hold a large, national wake for our Constitution. “Farewell, we barely knew thee…”
I’m just sick over this!
rootless2 @ 25
I thought at least they would get a new AG out of their capitulation. These guys get nothing, absolutely nothing, out of their ceding our rights. But as Raven correctly points out, they have been doing this forever.
eCAHNomics @ 2
thanks for the heads up.
Good morning everyone. Bought your pitchfork?
Yes! I must admit I expected much better. Kerry decided not to show up to vote, and in the Senate our side lost by one vote. I expected much better of him considering how impassioned he has become about the war.
Sheeeeet. The way he let the swiftboat motherfuckers roll his ass there is nothing he does or doesn’t do surprises me. “Reporting for Duty” my dying ass.
N=1 @ 13
I’m sticking with sheep, because the MSM will use it. They won’t call our reps whores.
Greenwald on DN: All illegal & war crimes policies & practices of W, have now been bipartisanized by D congress.
SufiLizard @ 31
Either that, or hold huge gatherings where the people vow to protect and defend the Constitution, since no one in elected office seems very interested in that.
Scarecrow @ 33
As a former farmer, I believe that pitchforks are only useful in experienced hands. Let’s choose another implement – a manure spreader comes to mind.
egregious @ 6
It was nice to meet you. btw, I still owe you for breakfast.
Katie Jensen @ 30
Good luck with that.
rootless2 @ 25
I can’t make any sense of this at all, we’re talking Alberto Gonzales here.
i want to draw everyone’s attention to this excellent comment by pow wow – all about how the house leadership gamed the rules to get this atrocity passed – instead of the bad, but not as grossly out of line, dem negotiated version.
Katie Jensen @ 30
Einstein eventually got the hell out of Germany, right at the beginning of the Nazi regime. The story goes, that it was after the Nazis paid a visit to him, confiscated his kitchen utensils, announced them as banned weapons, then trashed his sailboat. He figured that that was the point it was time to leave, for good, and it almost certainly saved his life.
Wonder if it will be Germany taking fleeing U.S. intellectuals and political refugees in, this time?
We are losing our county one slice at a time. We notice, the netroots sees, but the country has no clue.
I just cannot believe that our Dem leaders are so stupid. I dont believe it. Something is going on and it may continue to get worse. Even Webb, our hero voted for this thing.
N=1 @ 19
Thanks.
Note to Pelosi:
Put the Constitution back on the table.
Scarecrow @ 33
no torches, tho ;)
N=1 @ 22
I haven’t been able to get my tinfoil hat off all weekend. Who better to know of an imminent attack then the planners. (Did they ever figure out who it was who tried to kill Leahy with weapons grade anthrax?)
Washington Journal now doing call-in segment on topic:
Congress Expands Surveillance Powers
I’ve wasted a lot of time on Google trying to find a site that shows how my Representative voted on the FISA bill – anyone?
Richmond @ 28
Kerry’s absence is interesting, but didn’t make a difference by itself. Once they had 60 votes, it didn’t matter who showed up to vote no.
Here is one but there are others
http://www.democraticundergrou…..15;1519118
tpres2000 @ 50
Previous posts and comments give the 41 Democratic reps voting “yes.” Look around here–you’ll find them.
no congressional hearings weekly update today. congress is on their august recess.
just as well, because today i could give a flying fuck about congresses’ useless “oversight” hearings.
On the other hand, a pitchfork in angry, inexperienced hands might just concentrate their minds.
Scarecrow @ 51
I didn’ mean that his was the ONLY vote that mattered but was one of them. Also I think from the vantage of votes that numbers count as well even if one loses.
Greenwald on DN: Ds still believe terrorism fears & also consultant tells them they must be “strong on terrorism.”
C-Span’s Washington Journal discussing FISA
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs…..mp;Code=CS
eCAHNomics @ 57
“Land of the Free, Home of the Brave” is no longer operative.
I don’t believe this was poorly considered. Someone thought this through very carefully. Something is rottener than we think.
selise @ 54
First off, (((((FDL))))).
And a repeat from yesterday – those of us who value the Constitution and grieve what’s being done to it are venting a lot right now. So please give everyone a lot of room to shout, rage, virtually throw things, have tantrums – and don’t take it personally or react. We’re all on the same team. Horizontal violence can happen when members of a generally oppressed group can’t make their feelings known to the powers that be. So instead, they lash out at others in their group because it’s safer. Recognize that, and support each other through this so that we can come together and coalesce around the next steps.
So why isn’t Reid out front explaining to the 75% of the nation that considers Bush a desperate, coniving loser, how so many Senate Democrats joined the Republican surrender monkeys in polishing his crown?
I linked to this previously:
http://pruningshears.squarespa…..votes.html
montag @ 53
snowbird42 @ 44
Part of “our” problem is putting certain people (like Webb) up on pedastals, thinking that “finally, someone will save us.” Then they make a vote or two that we disagree with (not this vote – this one was a travesty – but in general), and we drop them. We should have no “heroes.”
Scarecrow @ 51
i beg to disagree. it did matter who showed up to call this the atrocity that it is.
anna parenna @ 60
99% of the those voting “yes” didn’t know what the fuck they voting for or against.
Dumbfucks, all of `em.
selise @ 54
Amen, Sister!
It’s beginning to appear we’d be better off if they NEVER came back.
selise @ 42
Selise: This was indeed an extraordinary bit of work. I mentioned last night that it would be great to have Powwow’s contribution up front and center to discuss more fully (it is a bit hard to find in the comments of last night). Mods: any possibility?
montag @ 59
That was part of my emails to Pelosi & Reid.
Well, it’s Recess Appointment time again, Kiddies! Since our “Leaders” apparently feel that Mr. Bush can do no additional harm to us through appointing a few more right-wing ideologues to key positions throughout the Government while they are out to “recess”, we can watch this train wreck unfold for the next month.
W & co. won’t be able to resist slapping us in the face (kicking us in the groin?) with a few well considered choices.
Cohen on DN: What lawyers are doing about illegal war. Some efforts with soldiers & some efforts to convince congress. Doesn’t sound very effective.
Cheney got everything he wanted and more–a loathing and disgust by many Democrats for their own party.
eCAHNomics @ 69
Good on you for saying so.
Katie Jensen @ 30
pure wisdom. thank you.
“(to close an alleged loophole created by a FISA court ruling that such surveillance required a warrant)”
Does anyone know the date of this ruling?
Ghostman
you know the real problem with this cave?
it gives the president an out when weighed against his crimes…if congress gave him the power when pressed with the issues he presented then he wasn’t wrong to take the power before he presented those issues
what kind of morons did we get elected?
As many people were traveling yesterday, I’m gonna be lazy and repeat what I posted in response to Christy’s post about being ’seriously peeved’ about the vote, so forgive me if you already read this:
A day later, and I realized that another thing that I’ll wait for with my wallet closed will be the utter capitualion next month when Petraeus tells these sheep that things are getting better and any opposition to the surge evaporates like splashed pool water on an August day.
Pelosi was in hiding during the public phase of the House’s capitulation.
One point made clear was the falseness of the Democrats prior excuses about how they could not change Congressional agendas or stop bills when they were in the minority. Somehow the Republicans can stop bills, set the agenda, and stampede the Congress in the minority, yet the Democrats cannot take any action in the majority.
perris @ 76
Big ones.
Notice how our Democratic leaders are still intimidated by the possibility of being labeled soft on terrorism?
I can hear Karl Rove now: Tell them that if a terrorist attack was to “somehow” happen while you are on recess….the whole country will be blaming the Democrats for not passing this legislation that fixes a loophole.”
I also believe that the Democratic leaders see this expanded power and are licking their chops in anticipation for when they control the executive branch.
I expected more from the Democratic party.
There may well be a small movement starting, akin to our previous “Rubber Stamp” gig, but this time targetted at Democrats over their capitulation (AGAIN) to Bush on FISA:
Knee Pads.
The idea is to send knee pads to those who voted for the FISA bill. My Senator Treason is Bayh. He is going to get a pair of knee pads from me.
perris @ 76
The kind that want to keep getting elected.
I am also waiting for a formal complaint in Congress against Boner for revealing classified information (state secrets) on TV. AND for an investigation of the people in the White House who leaked classified information to the NYTimes that have been used to suggest that Gonzales didn’t lie. How do we know the White house sources didn’t lie in talking to the NYTimes reporters. (alas, this also takes us back to the Iraq war build up – lies, and no accountability by the Dems).
I take some small amount of comfort from the belief that if NSA were to actually use all of the data-acqusition rights it now has, it is unlikely that it has the tools or the headcount to actually analyze all of the data and generate actual intelligence that could be used to suppress domestic dissent.
Of course, that means they probably can’t identify a real terrorist threat …
I gather that the changes also capture anyone who might be communicating abroad and is therefore monitored constantly. I think the language could be interpreted that way.
Both Greenwald & Cohen argued on democracynow that the Ds in congress will only get worse wrt terrorism when renewal comes up, because it’ll be closer to 08 election.
Everyone replay this morning’s program when it gets posted. It’s a must listen.
I’m very torn about my one and only Representative in the state voting for the FISA changes. Because this morning I read in the local paper that during one of NWA’s many flight cancellations, he anonymously gave up his seat the next day so a National Guard soldier could get home.
I think his vote was sincere, not sheep-ish, for whatever reasons. But at the same time, my trust in my government has been shaken over and over and over again.
And that is Bush’s “Mission Accomplished.”
We have to consider that “Other Intelligence Activities” or just the generic “Terrorist Surveillance Program”, collects information on each and every citizen. This is probably outsourced to friends and family of the loyal bushies, and companies such as Choicepoint.
Without accountability these private corporate spies can get away with about anything. The most we can do is to bring a spotlight on them.
I myself assume that all phone, internet, and all other traditional repressive spy tactics are being used. I would also suspect them of secretly recruiting, their own “informants” to locally monitor anti-corporate and anti-war dissent, using the Stasi model.
For example, Choicepoint, who helped steal the 2000 election, by voter caging, advertises itself,
Praedor Atrebates @ 81
The idea is to send knee pads to those who voted for the FISA bill. My Senator Treason is Bayh. He is going to get a pair of knee pads from me.
A good idea for the slightly more affluent than I.
Magic marker on them: “I blow Bush.”
The saddest thing is that this country, of all, had the capacity for such amazing greatness and beauty. Once upon a time we could have become that beacon of morality and justice, but it seems we have reached the endgame.
For some solace I try to go back to the book The Great Turning , written by David Korten. (He also wrote When Corporations Rule the World) He proposes the possiblity that we are at a turning point, in which he “details a grassroots strategy for advancing a momentous turning toward a future of as-yet-unrealized human potential” He believes we can move toward an “Earth Community”–a “life-centered, egalitarian, sustainable way of ordering human society based on democratic principles of partnership”.
I so want to believe we are capable of moving away from this unacceptable empire we have become and renew ourselves as the “earth community” Korten envisions. I need to believe this country is capable of this change in the midst of the current American tragedy of unimaginable proportions.
Richmond @ 83
I hope you’re prepared for a long wait
Richmond @ 28
sorry, but we didnt lose by one vote. the ayes were 60. look at the list of ayes for someone to blame, not for someone who voted no or didnt show up. it would not have mattered if he had shown up and voted no.
Richmond @ 83
That would require the Democrats to play the game to win and Bob Somersby compared the Democrats to the “Washington Generals”.
Perhaps it is time, as the The Stylistics wrote in ‘People make the World Go ‘Round’ for…
“Go underground young man.”
Those republicans just really want a civil war in the end I guess.
Richmond @ 56
Yes, I agree. I just meant that even if he voted, not, there were still 60 yes votes. To turn this around, we need to change the votes of those who voted yes.
Frank33 @ 88
Ding
We could start the “The Bull Moose” Party?
So did Pelosi sell out her party at supper with the Pres. Why? I cant get my head around it.
Too little too late! Pelosi, reid! What leadership. Can you folks honestly feel that you want anyone to contribute a single dime to the dems? You gotta be kidding. You see what the goopers did the other night? Took their bats and balls and walked out. Well, that is exactly what the folks in this country need to do. Walk Out!
Praedor Atrebates @ 81
Can’t we find something cheaper? How about paper bags (take th bags off your heads) or plastic bag twists (stop twisting in the wind) or pieces of string (you got strung up), or paint chips (you got painted in the corner), or a piece of wood (you got taken to the woodshed), or panty hose (you got hosed), or some screws (you screwed us) or some nails (you got nailed)? This also was my problem with the rubber stamp campaign and the brick campaign before. It is not just the cost (though that is critical for many) it is the difficulty of finding some of the stuff.
ArchTeryx @ 43
I thought she meant on this side of the ocean.
billjpa @ 99
The president of France is vacationing in New Hampshire, maybe we could all hitch a ride with him.
We can’t handle the truth?
We live in a secretive state.
If the Prez and Congress think we will be attacked…
Use his instant declassification powers and
tell the PEOPLE…
I hate secrets!
The Nation can handle it…
eCAHNomics @ 57
If the Ds believe they must be “strong on terroism”, when will they start dealing with the lopsided and blind support of Israel? When we start dealing with this conflict in a fair and balanced way, terroism in the middle east will be reduced. The I/P conflict is a thorn in the side of most of the countries in the middle east, when will we deal with this issue fairly?
Not going to happen any time soon since the Israeli lobby has the Democratic party in lock down on this issue. The I/P conflict is where the left turns right (wrong).
Unless we start pushing this topic it is not going to be discussed at any of the debates.
Richmond @ 100
Id rather see a campaign around “no more money”
It might have more effect than symbolic stuff.
anna parenna @ 60
oh yes, like the last little provision to extend the effect for another year. oh yes, they thought this out well (somewhere in the bowels of the White House).
Ghostman @ 75
No, it’s secret; Boehner only leaked that it happened, as part of the scheme to frighten congresscritters. I suspect cheney used his 4th branch insta-declassification wand.
burnspbesq @ 84
The point is that when it comes to politics they use this strategically. I think I remember in the Kerry campaign when they were using the issue of what was said in his phone calls to/from France. How many of the Dems go on junkets (Pelosi now on one) abroad, they can listen in on those as well).
Richmond @ 68
i email christy and scarecrow this morning asking them if they would allow/invite pow wow (if willing) to write a front page post or two for us – to give some sunlight to how the system was gamed.
tpres2000 @ 50
Here is a WaPo website that has the votes recorded and analyzed various ways.
JF @ 64
but there is something different here – Webb voted aye, Mikulski voted aye. and Landrieu voted yes, then no, then yes. they have some explaining to do, but there’s something different here.
TiredFed @ 111
I bet nobody really want to hear my opinion of Webb again do you?
barbara @ 24
It is both a legalization of the patently illegal from before AND it gives them a step to extend beyond that (and then scare the Dems…or the GOP in control of Congress again after the abject failures of the Dems since 06) so they can get legislative (thought still illegal) sanction for THAT.
This is the end of the free Republic of the United States and the DE FACTO official beginning of the Police States of America (PSA…get used to it). This FISA bill was the Enabling Act of 2007. Nothing less.
Prairie Sunshine @ 87
Tim Walz?
TiredFed @ 111
And who’s explanation could we ever trust?
Id rather see a campaign around “no more money”
It might have more effect than symbolic stuff.
Agree, I’m done with symbols. Especially ones that just give Bill O’Reilly another pretext for bashing progressive blogs.
perris @ 76
so it would seem. if they just got Bush (and more importantly Cheney) off the hook for violating FISA (and a few other laws along the way), that avenue as grounds for impeachment has just been closed off, permanently.
raven @ 102
He’s a rightie and Bush supporter.
Scarecrow @ 107
Hmmm. Of course, ya’ll see where I’m going here. If this was a ruling from weeks, or several months ago…then the “problem” should have been addressed immediately by the WH.
Still so very much of this mess shrouded in smoke.
Ghostman
Richmond @ 118
Maybe that means he’d have more room :)
I am so deeply depressed today, it is hard to be angry. I listen to stream of Republican callers on the Washington journal who are delighted with their “If you’re not doing anything wrong…” routine & I want to puke. These people have absolutely no idea.
Thanks Selise on emailing on the Powwow piece!
Callers into C-Span are pissed with the Democrats in regard to the expansion of FISA.
What I can’t understand is why the D’s did not stay in session to debate this legislation. This would have demostrated to the American public how serious they are about understanding this expansion and would have helped the American public come to a deeper understanding of their decision, if there are more serious reasons or evidence as to why they voted the way they did.
This would have also benefitted their fund raising efforts. Americans are pissed.
Richmond @ 68
selise @ 42
Selise: This was indeed an extraordinary bit of work. I mentioned last night that it would be great to have Powwow’s contribution up front and center to discuss more fully (it is a bit hard to find in the comments of last night). Mods: any possibility?
I read powwow’s comment; unfortunately, much of the procedural and parliamentary meanderings still leave me with one question:
Does all of this indicate mere gross ineptitude or an active desire to eventually, and somehow, make sure that the prez got what he was demanding?
Surely, the leadership had the whip count showing that the vote on the Senate version was going to be a failure for Dem’s. So what was the reason that it was allowed to proceed?
(okay, maybe more than one question)
montag @ 11
Well then they better think again. As far as I’m concerned, electing Democrats last time did no good at all. We now know for a fact that the Democrats are a large part of the problem. You think I’m going to bother to help elect turncoat Democrats who don’t know any better than to vote the way these did? The most I’m gonna do is send each of these 57 worthless pieces of trash a letter telling them that they are part of the problem, not part of the solution and don’t deserve another shot at public office.
snowbird42 @ 105
Alternative: KY jelly. Or if there is a company out there that can/does print the Constitution on a roll of toilet paper…
In any case, I have already been on the “no more money” gig since Alito. I quit giving money to ANY groups that played a roll in getting him on the courts (ie, NARAL, the Democrapic Party, any and all candidates of that party). I cannot give less than zero dollars…and besides, so many of you have been giving money up the ying-yang that the Dems have brought in money hand-over-fist, that it is now too late to fix that. They are swimming in sucker money.
The last thing I can do is withhold my vote. And I intend to. I will NOT vote Democrap in 08. They have cut every single American loose to deal with dictatorship so I am cutting them loose. At least with the GOP I am never ever fooled. The Dems smile at you and slide a knife in your back while the GOPers TELL you they are going to stick a knife in your heart and then they do it. Plain as day.
I prefer the honest criminal over the lying shithead criminal.
nonplussed @ 121
That’s because they’re all hoping for jobs at the camps. Fuck `em.
You know how we delivered rubber stamps to Congress?
How about we deliver doormats to the ones who deserve it, as our next action?
All of the callers that I’ve heard so far on C-Span keep mentioning “probable cause” wrt the TSP. How did that meme get started? The standard is “reasonably believe”. (which has no place in a law having to do with criminal investigations).
egregious @ 128
I like the kneepads suggestion better.
Agree with “no more money.” Which means that every phone call and every email and every snail-mailed fundraising communication must be returned with that message.
Talked about that last night with friends. We agreed to purchase a large stack of postcards. We’re going to fire them off to our own reps and, where appropriate, to others with increasing frequency and specificity and urgency about what is chilling our spine.
Note to Congress: Your constituents have spines. Eat your hearts out.
TiredFed @ 111
I agree that this vote was, somehow, different. My point was a general one – we always find someone to look to as a “savior,” and then get disillousioned when they cast a vote or two against what we feen they should have. Then we move on to the next “savior.”
egregious @ 128
Doormats are too expensive to send (and replace). How about a roll of toilet paper (flattened) writtened with the words: “Fourth Amendment- down to toilet”
Ghostman 119: only thing I’ve seen is that the FISA court ruling apparently happened months ago. Recall that back in January(?) the Administration announced they were putting the TSP back under the FISA courts? The shortly thereafter, according to the selective leaks, they got this court ruling. The story doesn’t hang together, because the ruling reportedly applied to foreign-to-foreign commo, not US to/from foreign. It’s all behind the veil.
Baa Baa Baa. The Blue Dog Democrats should be renamed the Blue Sheep Democrats.
I am especially upset at my Sentor Webb for voting for the bill.
I think it is time we consider alternatives to these two sheepish parties.
nonplussed @ 70
Okay, here’s my bet:
Sometime around August 15 Abu Gonzo resigns and we have a new recess-appointed atrocity…these guys always have someone worse waiting in the wings. My worst nightmare: John Yoo.
Scarecrow @ 116
Screw BO! Why are you so afraid of him?
egregious @ 128
You know how we delivered rubber stamps to Congress?
How about we deliver doormats to the ones who deserve it, as our next action?
Doormats? How about two marbles each? With the notation that ‘these are obviously not a set of balls, but it’s an improvement over what you’ve shown to date’?
raven @ 112
he’s no saint, and he’s just barely a Dem, but he’s one of them where it counts. and I sure like what he’s said to Jr.
barbara @ 131
And we should have franking privileges for sending postcards to Congress.
Their right hands don’t know who their left hands are doing.
jayt @ 129
Quite the opposite. Probable cause is the higher standard. The latest mod to FISA allows “reasonable belief” on the part of the ODNI or AGAG, and with that, we’re fucked.
JF @ 14
If it wasn’t legal before and it was going on then why wasn’t anyone punished for the violations? It’s only illegal if you get caught and there are consequences. They have been caught, they have admitted abuses and there have never been any consequences for these violations.
Elliott @ 115
speaking for myself alone, I would trust Barbara’s explanation. But it had better be a good one, like she didn’t know what she was doing.
Scarecrow @ 134
Scarecrow, is there anyone you trust who can see behind the veil?
Folks in the blogosphere, Callers into C-Span, pissed with the Dems.
I really do not get it? Why not stay in session longer to discuss the details, the reasons that they caved. Were they provided additional evidence about potential “terroist acts”? They could have stayed in session and used that time to inform the American public about why they voted the way they did?
I hope that there are solid reasons why they voted the way they did. They knew this would not help with their fund raising so there have to be reasons…I hope
Greenwald points out that the Democrats had time to set the agenda – to craft a FISA fix that included strong reporting requirements and perhaps also some felony penalties for hiding information from Congress and to then pass it and hammer Bush for not signing it. But instead, they waited for Bush to take the initiative. The lack of basic legislative and political competence shown here is incredible. Just incredible.
rxbusa @ 136
this is why I’m dreading this recess, just dreading it.
montag @ 142
You’re right of course, and that’s what I was getting at, or at least trying to.
Additional coffee, the all-purpose cure for muddy posting, on the way.
Elliott @ 145
We don’t even know who really gets to see behind all the veils. There is no transparency here, so there can be no trust. Even Ronald Reagan could figure that out.
Thanks Harry and Nancy!
You sold my constitutional rights for a few weeks of vacation. What a bargain!
Thanks so much!
.
1. Wouldn’t new AG have to be confirmed by Senate? Or can W put in an acting & just stonewall confirmation until he’s out of office?
2. If he could get away with it, new AG might be David Addington, “Cheney’s Cheney.”
3. But I don’t see any reason why W would think he should get rid of AGAG, who is doing everything Yoo or Addington would do anyway.
montag @ 11
They just might manage to do so at the rate they’re going. I’ll be voting libertarian or independent unless I see something drastic in the next 60 days (say, impeachment proceedings). Now how many presidential votes will be drained from democrats if an independent runs and actually gets press or debate time?
My message to Barbara Mikulski (Sen, D, MD).
In Reference to your FISA vote: SHAME ON YOU.
You have lost my vote in perpetuity. I hope you enjoy your vacation, and I hope you enjoy a permanent one soon.
The Washington Post sums up my feelings most succinctly:
To call this legislation ill-considered is to give it too much credit: It was scarcely considered at all. Instead, it was strong-armed through both chambers by an administration that seized the opportunity to write its warrantless wiretapping program into law — or, more precisely, to write it out from under any real legal restrictions.
JF @ 14
It’s not just that it’s legal. It’s that the blame for it being legal can now be squarely placed on Democrats. These people are the reason why none of the Republicans in power will be impeached during this term. Not Gonzo, not Rove, not Cheney. These 57 people have proved that “we” don’t have a majority in Congress. I don’t think “We, the People” have a majority in Congress. This is what Obey was shouting about when he said “We don’t have the votes!” This is surely a big blow for truth, justice and the American way.
The New York Times is telling everybody how stupid and weak the Charlie Brown Democrats are for allowing Lucy to trick the football away again.
This is the same New York Times that regurgitated and recycled WH war propaganda via Judith Miller and others. Instead of performing basic due dilligence.
Today, as planned, the NYT has made a mockery of the spineless Democrats, while pretending to be on their side.
The Dems must realize that principles sometimes matter. They must also understand that the corporatocracy is always going to knife them in the back, whether they take a principled stand or not.
#154 was from Bilbo, not Biblo. Sorry
If our Reps were shown solid evidence that there were more reasons to fear a “terroist act” with in the U.S., would our Reps be able to discuss this?
Or would they be bound to secrecy based on the status of the intelligence?
TiredFed @ 144
You know, that was really a depressing answer.
eCAHNomics @ 152
When I called Reid’s office, and was told that there is no plan in place to deter recess appointments, I told the staffer to write down two names:
“Attorney General John Yoo”, and “Attorney General David Addington”.
SP (at work) @ 153
There are no independents running. Wishful thinking, at this point. Previous runs by independents have drained votes from independents, right-wing and left-wing, without much changing the overall outcome (Nader naysayers belay the complaints, now).
Third-party candidates just lose. Period.
eCAHNomics @ 152
But Gonzo is a known quantity. Outside the blogs, who knows who Yoo and Addington are? Bush would just say “Gonzo gone, problem solved,” and most people would just accept it.
eCAHNomics @ 152
If Addington were appointed by Bush we should definitely take to the streets.
hackworth @ 156
And I hope you saw Krugman’s piece clobbering Hillary. (By the way big difference between editorial page and news sections. Ditto Wall St. Journal).
N=1 @ 61
Thanks, N=1, that is such a good awareness for us to keep ~ for vent we must ~ and you provide this message with the perfect tone. Thanks!
eCAHNomics @ 152
Answers: 1. No. Recess appointment would last until the next Congress (Jan 2009). 2. Yes. 3. It’s always nicer not to have an albatross hanging around your neck. Better photo ops.
Pete @ 135
Let us be fair, and emphasize also this is a Repiglican Spying Program to support a Repiglican war. They deserve most of the blame. When the primaries come next summer, the clever thing would be for anti-war challengers against all pro-war congress kritters.
Kathleen @ 146
Your wish is hollow and pointless. THERE WAS NO GOOD, VALID REASON FOR WHAT THEY DID TO THE CONSTITUTION. They caved, as they ALWAYS do, and now they expect to come home on their little vacations and receive adoring donations and thank yous from their victims.
He is a traitor, in the truest, most accurate definition of the term. Treason. Treason. Treason.
[Mod Note; Comment edited by mod. Please, no references of violence towards anyone, or anything that may be perceived as such. Thank you.]
With corporations having such control over the administration, could another offshoot to the domestic spying be that the corporations want to know what we are buying and what we are talking about in terms of products so that their advertising could be more useful to them? Also, could corporations be trying to listen in on their competition to get a leg up on the market? Just a thought.
Al Franken has a great video up — on his site and here:
http://www.alternet.org/environment/58886/
Democrats ought to clone it. He speaks clearly to Democratic values. [Only one problem: he mentions Amy Kohlbar (sp?) and praises her. I guess this was made before last week’s vote.]
Let’s all send Steney Hoyer and Rahm Emanuel a copy.
montag @ 161
Bloomberg. And yes, he would do far more damage to Dems than Rethugs. He figured in the Lieberman fiasco.
Kathleen @ 158
Virtually all of them don’t know fuck-all about the intelligence details, because they’ve never been briefed on them. That’s the bone-deep godawful truth. They don’t fuckin’ know shit.
Elliott @ 159
yeah, I know. but the alternatives are much harder to consider.
Scarecrow @ 134
Double Hmmmm! (chuckle) More seriously, if dates are even “in the ballpark”, this means the WH left our national security wide open for a period of time. It also means that the timing of this last-minute “Fix Fisa Emergency” was far more for political reasons than national security interests.
I think the date of the FISA ruling is a key….whether the date ever gets published? Perhaps not. The veil, indeed.
Ghostman
Pete @ 135
or maybe Blue Star Democrats
Scarecrow @ 150
You know, this too is a really depressing answer. Maybe I should say distressing.
The more I learn here (and environs)the harder and harder it is for me to trust anyone of “The Establishment”
Kathleen @ 158
Irrelevant. There is NO threat possible that makes rendering the Constitution and Bill of Rights null and void. NEVER EVER can a threat EVER rise to the level that it eradicates the organizing and controlling documents of this country. No excuses possible. Period. Treason!
AP) Tragic Error at Tysons
Several visiting Democratic Congressional leaders were mistakenly plucked and partially processed at a chicken processing plant when workers were unable to distinguish them from the other caged and terrified poultry. The gutting process revealed the error when plant workers called over supervisors to examine the already gutless carcasses. Fortunately, after some minor tailoring repairs on their suits which were then restuffed, the Democratic leaders were able to continue their tour, apparently unharmed.
You need directions to his office? Or a free parking place? *g*
[Edited: Edited by Mod. Let’s back off from calls for violence, even in jest. N=1 has a helpful comment at 61. SC.]
The ones I find most incomprehensible are the Blue Dogs who had signed up to co-sponsor Impeachment of Abu yet voted for this atrocity to give Abu all this power on trust.
Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
jayt @ 124
it looks like an active intent to:
1) get the bush version passed, not the one negotiated by the dems in the intelligence committees
2) to deceive us (by allow most dems to vote no – so it looks like our problem is with a subset of the dems in congress).
this is far, far worse than sheep. there are some board collies out there hearding the sheep… and they have a “D” on their name tag.
N=1 @ 15
Amen!! They [Dems who folded] just don’t have a CLUE about a) how weak this makes them look; and b) how pissed their “base” [us] is going to be.
No, we’re not stupid enough to vote for Repubs or Greens, but it’s gonna be a lot harder for the “Traitors” to get us to work for them or give money to them. [We’ll be giving our money via ActBlue instead.]
Oh, and DCCC, shut the f*** up. Don’t try asking ME for $$$$.
Praedor@ 168. Can’t help trying to look at it from another angle. This is not going to help them with fund raising, they are not getting appreciation…there has to be some other reason why they voted this way.
This vote is not going to get them more money, votes or appreciation.
Richmond @ 28
I think something needs clarification here. People seem to be attacking those who didn’t vote as if they voted “for” the measure by default. It simply isn’t true. In this case an “ABSENCE” or Abstention was equivalent to a “No” vote.
In the Senate Bush only needed to pull 60 votes. He got over that threshhold with the help of Democratic Senators like Feinstein and Webb.
Kerry’s absence meant nada in terms of the outcome. His vote, or that of Boxer, and others would have only added to the vote tally in the nays…but not reach the 41 necessary to block the measure.
But if a SINGLE ONE of those that voted aye had defected the bill would have gone down to defeat.
Bush would have then have called a “special session” until the Senate passed a measure that he wouldn’t veto.
The House vote was a little different…THERE it was based upon a percentage of the votes…50%.
dakine01 @ 180
Yes, it does. In the former instance, it was a mere gesture. In the latter, it counted. Blue Dogs have their tails between their legs and are heading for the hills.
montag @ 172
Bayh, Feinstein, Nelson and Mikulski are all on the Senate Intel committee where this bill ostensibly came from. They all voted aye. Why?
montag @ 172
Are you sure they have never been briefed?
TiredFed @ 186
They aren’t in the Gang of Eight (the only people that get briefings (read: edicts) from the Bushies).
There’s no guarantee whatsoever that they received any relevant and useful info in committee that related directly to this bill.
My guess is that they were told something vague and that influenced their votes. That’s not to excuse them. They caved in to Bush, and they fucked up. Period.
If Jim Webb’s vote doesn’t drive home the reality that all politicians are nothing but lying two faced sold-out hustlers then nothing does.
So now, instead of the Democrats getting a month of being called weak on terror, they’ll get a month of being called defeatists in Iraq.
That deadline in Sept. has already been spun off. Patreaus will come in a make his presentation, but the message has already been sent. The “surge” needs time to work. Even though it’s not working, there will be a couple straws of progress that Bush will be able to grasp and claim that there’s gold in the pile of hay somewhere.
Richmond @ 108
Or to Syria? Or calling FROM Iraq?
Has anyone heard Jim Webb’s expanation for his vote?
cathy @ 192
He’s a Republican with a kid in Iraq. No other explanation necessary.
cinnamonape @ 191
Or troops calling home or to journalists.
Gregor @ 189
I don’t agree with this. There are lots of courageous honorable people, just not enough.
Kathleen @ 163
Been asking this question for weeks, but can’t find an answer anywhere. It being a Cabinet position, not sure how this would work. But it’s the thing I have feared all along. And the only thing we have to fear is BushCo itself.
smack @ 143
USA Today
Because it’s next to impossible to prove you’ve had your calls monitored. These 2 lawyers know their calls were through a mistake only and had proof.
It’s ridiculous and chilling at the same time.
I read about this at TPM Muckraker this morning.
Tiredfed @ 166
Thanks. Yep.
Richmond @ 194
It is clear the fix was in on this in both houses of Congress. It was just a question of whom would go down for the vote.
Scarecrow @ 195
People yea, politicians . . .?
Sheep? Come on. Birds of a feather flock together. Which means, to switch metaphors, that the Congressional Democrats are now exactly and precisely like the fascist swine Republicans. Let’s hear it now! OINK, OINK, OINK!
Scarecrow @ 195
I SO want to agree with you, Scarecrow. But this session has shattered faith all over the place. Who is trustworthy? Who is our touchstone in Congress? I don’t think it’s Pelosi or Reid, but I honestly don’t know any more (if, indeed, I ever did).
jayt @ 179
[Mod Note; Comment edited by mod. Please, no references of violence towards anyone, or anything that may be perceived as such. Thank you.]
I have a question or two :)
Obviously, The Congress is not going to stop this expanding madness.
What can be done on a State by State basis?
Can State Houses revoke/refuse federal law?
If individual States determine that the ‘Federal Government’ has overstepped its limits, can they step up to protect ‘THEIR’ people of said States?
What if every State House stood up and said ‘We ARE the People and you will no longer do this!’.
Is there a way to do this? and, If not, how do we do it?
eCAHNomics @ 152
1. I think recess appointments are allowed if the Senate is out more than 10 days. That’s how Bolton got appointed, for example. And it would be good for the rest of W’s term
2&3 I pretty much agree with that.
Kathleen @ 123
Hear! Hear! They could have stated that they regretted not coming back for the recess to meet with constituents and fundraise, but were doing the nations work balancing the Security needs of the country with our Constitutional freedoms. And then given a website for donations and comments!
Once again the Democratic Congress would trump the Republican one…stating that they had passed more Bills, and sent even more to the President who vetoed them (yes send up scores and make it HI
SufiLizard @ 31
I’ve said before, and I’ll say again [sorry]:
I used to work in a Congressional office. What gets their attention is mail [or phone calls, e-mail]. LOTS of mail.
You don’t have to be articulate or persuasive. In a Senate office especially, the Senator is not going to see what you wrote. [That genuine-looking signature on the “thank you” letter will be written with an auto-pen.]
Mail comes into the office [the DC office, anyway] and is opened & sorted by the lowest person on the staff totem pole. It’s “tallied” — X many letters “for” an issue; Y many letters “against,” and the results are relayed to the Senator/Rep.
Someone on the staff is assigned to write a vanilla/milquetoast response. [”Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. I will certainly keep them in mind when this issue comes to the floor.” Barf.]
So your eloquent prose and flawless reasoning are not going to sway the day. The full mailbags of polite but angry letters will.
Go sit at your breakfast table, write a SHORT note, identifying yourself as a constituent, and give ‘em a POLITE earful. Send one note to the DC office of your Critter, another [one or two] to the “District Office(s)” — it will be listed in your phone book.
Tell as many of your friends, family, co-workers, etc. to do likewise. Offer to provide them with names, addresses, text.
You can both call, write & e-mail. It’s not like they’re going to check. You just want to generate a “man, are they pissed” reaction at the Congressional office.
Good luck.
Oh, and a little missive to Pelosi & Reid, while not really “effective,” may help your blood pressure as well.
I don’t mean to discourage the very effective tactic of showing up at one of the district “meet & greets” when the Critter is home. But mail is easy and effective (well, as effective as can be given the current situation).
Yo, it’s against FDL policy to be talking about doing violence. Get with the program.
cinnamonape @ 184
kerry could have been present – not just to vote “no”, but to try to convince ONE of his fellow senators to vote no.
p.s. am i the only one haveing trouble posting and refreshing this morning? (i’ve given up on preview)
Praedor Atrebates @ 81
I’m a Hoosier too, and for the first time in my life I’m actually represented in the House by a Democrat (Donnelly) but he voted for this atrocity. I’m utterly appalled — I’ve never felt so betrayed!
Mauimom@207:
I suggest sending post cards (especially if you’re writing to DC) to more quickly bypass security scrutiny.
For the next few weeks in particular, write to the critters’ home office.
cathy @ 192
Webb’s Statement on FISA Vote
This is interesting. I guess until people we know and love start being hauled off to court will we start understanding the ramifications of this bullshit. America is full of easily frightened people.
I guess that whole walkout crap the repubs pulled was just a smokescreen.
Let’s just say,for the sake of discussion that in essence there aren’t really two parties,but one that’s on a limited continuum. Now what?
Protesting doesn’t stop governments determined to overrule their own people.This government is not in the least bit afraid of the people. Why should they be? The government has the big guns,the power and money on it’s side. Anyone who thinks they wouldn’t use weapons on their own people isn’t paying attention. If people will lie,cover up,steal and murder they are capable of anything. It’s really past time to think it can’t happen here.
This is a wake-up call, folks.
We need to follow Christy’s advice and actually go to the town meetings and get into all of their faces-Democrat and Republican alike. We can’t just sit here and whine in the blogosphere echo chamber. Our outrage needs to find voice and traction in the places that really matter.
Don’t give up. Ever.
This is a long battle and the Blue Dogs that supported this travesty will pay. That includes you, Sen Feinstein.
Millineryman @ 212
thanks!
raven @ 208
I am not advocating or even actually threatening violence. I am expressing my honest, real, feelings here. I will not visit his offices because of that feeling. Instead, I am inundating him with angry emails and phonecalls.
mauimom @ 207
I concur. I worked one summer in the Senate. And was the one who did those tallies and typed out the 2 line boiler plate responses. Those NRA people got in a zillion letters, and that is why they counted so much. Ditto, I assume now (but not then), the Christian right and neo-cons.
More wisdom from Scarecrow in the new thread upstairs.
In Need Of A Civics Lesson
New thread upstairs.
Millineryman @ 212
It is NOT an explanation, it is a vapid and empty excuse. He is a moral coward and has violated his oath, both the one he took when he joined the Navy and the one he took upon entering the Senate. He is (politically) dead to me. I want him out. ASAP. Unfortunately, that means 5 years from now.
Scarecrow @ 195
i don’t disagree with you scarecrow – i just don’t know who they are… there’s too much active obscuring going on.
… here’s how i’ll tell who all the courageous and honorable people in congress are – whoever will step forward and tell us (naming names) exactly how this went down. ‘cuz everyone of them who continues to protect their corrupt colleagues is neither courageous nor honorable.
Praedor Atrebates @ 177
I was very impressed with both Sheldon Whitehouse and Russ Feingold’s stance on the Senate side. I think they had the clearest message on the Constitutionality breech that the legislation makes. They also did something that I at least found telling – they looked directly at the Senators they believed are making the breech, and they spoke directly to them.
New thread upstairs
Here’s the deal. I cannot continue to assume that all the politician’s including Webb are just a bunch of lying scoundrels. It doesn’t fit my very democratic world view. We have to remember that when we say “we the people” it includes the ones that got voted into office, even if our capitalistic corporate system has major flaws…these are still human beings. It’s far too cynical for my tastes to believe that all these folks are “bad” or “stupid”.
It fits the republican world view of “don’t trust anyone that isn’t rich or doesn’t share my opinion”. I can’t go there right now, and such view points are not helpful to sorting out the truth. Power and control is contagious. The abused woman eventually ends up beating her kids or at least yelling at them.
I will instead assume that Pow wow’s comments are far closer to reality. I will look for facts, the kernal of truth. I will try to consider the opposing view just for a second to see if their might be a kernal of truth.
I just realized that this idea that they are all a bunch of bad guys is WAY too black and white and likely not accurate. It’s emotional, it’s hard. I don’t agree with the position, but I need to try to understand exactly the truth of why good people have been manipulated, controlled, or convinced of the this path.
I love you all, but it just isn’t black and white. Remember the authoritarian personality thinks in this way, and yes, group think makes it contagious…cause it’s emotion that makes us go there. But it’s not helpful.
I need the grey areas, I need the truth. I pray that my higher power will help me be open to what truly is.
I was stupid to defend either Harry, or Nancy.
What was I thinking?
As far as we know, everything the intelligence committee is being told are lies from LIARS. This is just so sick. And DiFi says she is confused, while Webb says he’s listening to the committee. What fuckery. Same goes for ANYTHING we *think* we know about secret rulings. It is *ALL* Politics, folks.
God Bless Glenn Greenwald for his clarity.
Thanks Scarecrow for the best summary I have seen: heck if the WP and the NYT are getting it right already things are still shifting. Or maybe the WH doesn’t have to spin anything anymore.
Scarecrow @ 116: This is my view, too. Thank you for your leadership.
Montag ..Tired Fred .
If they were provided with more intelligence that fed their fears about another “terroist attack” can they discuss this? If they did receive such intelligence did they have enough time to confirm that the intelligence was valid? Why not stay in session to discuss the legislation longer? Or did they simply roll over as many here at FDL keep repeating?
I will be asking Congressman Wilson (we gave up Ted Strickland in our district to run for Governor of Ohio, Wilson moved into Strickland’s spot running on Teds coattails) along with Congressman Zack Space (Ohio’s 18th congressional district..Ney crapped all over this district), these questions.
mauimom @ 207
Could I please cross post this to my blog as a reference guide? Thank you so much for writing this – it is very helpful!
Katie Jensen @ 225
Ever consider that your world view is itself broken and in need of replacement? A static worldview is what has the neocons pushing unending war all over the place. It is what has Bush and Cheney remaining resolute in their failures to stay the course.
They do NOT have information that we are not privy to. I say again, it is NOT POSSIBLE for there to be a valid threat that can render the Bill of Rights dispensable. It is NOT POSSIBLE for there to be a threat that makes it OK to kill the Constitution and Bill of Rights. THAT is the only static worldview necessary to see that the Webbs and the Feinsteins ARE black in the black-vs-white world. They are not grays, they are BLACK. They violated their oaths and they have spat upon the Bill of Rights. Period. THAT is black and white.
Your worldview is shakey because it is running up against reality and not dealing well with it.
Praeder,
I am not suggesting that there IS a valid threat. I am suggesting that I don’t believe in good and bad, right and wrong. There is a reason for this madness. There always is, even if we don’t want to know.
that was supposed to be “threat”, not “thread”, there is ALWAYS a valid “thread” on FDL.
[Mod Note; I fixed it for you.]
Katie Jensen @ 231
Who doesn’t want to know? I do not believe it is possible to have a free country or a democracy in which the government keeps ANY secrets from the People that actually run the country. Secrecy is ANTI-democratic. There is NOTHING that is validly kept secret (beyond intelligence capabilities and informants, as well as specific military capabilities and movements). Everything else that is secret is done primarily to cover up illegal and unconstitutional activities on the part of the criminals in the government. It is almost NEVER EVER about real “national security”.
[Mod Note; Comment edited by mod. Please, no advocating violence towards anyone, or anything that may be perceived as such. Thank you.]
During the very time Congress was debating codifying President Bush’s lawbreaking by revising FISA, Alberto Gonzales’ DOJ was raiding the home of a former Justice official to identify the person who first brought the illicit program to light.
For the disturbing details of selective retribution by the White House, see:
“Payback Time: FBI Raids Home of Suspected NSA Leaker.”
Katie Jensen said:
“Is it possible that in secret sessions they are telling the congress something that is scaring them into believing that this is necessary or that at the very least they are so afraid of being wrong and america being attacked and blood loss being blamed on them that they just feel they cannot take the risk?”
Congress doesn’t have to be told anything in secret. They are not dumb, they’re just playing it. They know that 9/11 was not Al Qaeda, or just Al Qaeda. They got attacked with anthrax right after 9/11. They’ve been warned recently by Brezinski, who told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to beware false flag terror. They’ve heard Chertoff, Santorum, ad naseaum drooling over a terrorist event. They know that if they don’t give in on this, there will be an event of some sort while they are on recess, and that it will be blamed on those that didn’t vote for the bill. And all the oh-so-intelligent, tin-foil-mocking, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” fools at Daily Kos, and their spooky leader Marcos Zuniga, are reaping what they have sown with their ignorance and mockery. Rant over.
Represented by sheep AND elected by sheep.
Well now that freedom is dead. I say we at least have fun with it and start calling everyone in the Saudi phone book to talk about the Constitution and how our government is run by the crooked, the evil and the cowardly.
Maybe then someone in the NSA will realize what they’re doing is wrong.
And maybe we can all have a big ‘We love torture’ party in Gitmo.
Baaah. Baaaah. Baaaah.
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The part I like best is the way the Democratic leadership spent months telling us what a horrible, no-good, lying son of a bitch Al Gonzales was — and then cleared the way for passage of a bill that gives him the authority to wiretap just about anyone anywhere at any time.
I’d call them jellyfish, but even jellyfish have the ability to tell light from dark.
The Bush faction are people that have bent/ broken rule and rule to get what they want. The question is how many more rules are they breaking.
Are Democrats waking up in the morning to find dead horse heads in their beds?
Hey! With bush’s ratings so high, the successes in domestic and foreign policies, stock-market rising, housing boom, Iraq and Afghanistan stable and the oil flowing cheaply and with Republicans in the majority in Congress and Senate, why wouldn’t the Democrats give bush everything he … what? Huh?, Really?
never mind
N=1: absolutely you may cross-post this. I’m flattered. Please LMK if I can expand on it in any way. I’m at aol.com
SOMEBODY, READ THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA – Congress cannot legally and arbitrarily override the Fourth Amendment. Only the STATES can amend the Constitution, and it requires an Amendment to remove an existing amendment (see #18 & 21). We need a lawsuit, and if the whole concept of FISA (secret courts are also unconstitutional (see #6)) & this new law aren’t struck down, the States need to impeach all three branches of the Federal government. It’s just sick to appease al Qaeda by taking away all that our country is supposed to stand for.
How about asking Democratic representatives who voted for the new FISA law:
“Exactly how did Bush blackmail you to vote that way?”
I wonder sometimes if the ability to remotely turn on cell phones and then listen in on conversations nearby may have contributed to the horsehead in the bed. No one expects a private conversation to be monitered – its something, I guess, we’ll all have to get used to.
I may still vote Democratic (no choice there)but I will no longer write checks.
The Dems are hollow inside and no match for Bush & his 28%ers. Too bad for us.
/agree Dianne
I still can’t stand Nader for his election year 2000 betrayal but it’s a sad sign of the times when i can finally see what he means when he spoke ill of the dems back then.
judyinnm @ 243
The problem with a lawsuit is no one will ever be able to prove they have standing since whether or not you are impacted is classified. If there ever is a Supreme Court that believes in the constitution again, one of the doctrines that needs to be reexamined is the notion of standing. It is an important legal concept and needs to be kept but it also needs to be fixed to allow judicial redress of the kinds of power grabs made by this administration.
The concept of Democratic spinelessness has become the conventional wisdom now. Chris Floyd’s article makes much more sense: http://www.chris-floyd.com/Art…..Democrats/
Do Democrats who knuckled under to Bush’s demand believe that they have spared themselves from harsh campaign attacks? They’ll still get accused of trying to cut and run, of letting down the troops, and of being soft on terror; by implication, if not explicitly, they’ll still get labeled as cowards if not traitors. And they won’t have a vote protecting the Constitution to fall back on.
Traitor meet Traitor I am a bigger Traitor then you are no I am I comprimised the Bill of Rights so what I gave you the power now will you please say something nice to me or or I’ll stick my tongue out at you.
Moron leading Moron reading and Comprehension not required if any sense of loyalty or commitment to the American people Please DO NOT apply, both parties say SCREW YOU AMERICA.
snowbird42 @ 44
Sometimes you’ve just gotta trust they’re doing the right thing. After all, they seemed trustworthy before. Why shouldn’t they be now?
Have a little faith and wait a while to see how it plays out.
“We are a nation represented by sheep.”
Close, but actually, I think
“We are a nation of sheep.” Represented by cowards?