Good morning, Tempered with my stinging disappointment from last night, of course. New day, though!

Good morning Christy! A new day, a new fight. Let’s get to work.

Things will have to get better, but Byron York is really aggravating me on Washington Journal right now!

nonplussed @ 3

Things will have to get better, but Byron York is really aggravating me on Washington Journal right now!

Agreed, the worst part is that there is no counter argument (except for current caller).

Good Morning Christy and everypup!

The video was not quite what I expected. Cracked me up too, even the credits!

I go back and forth between outrage & heartbreak over the FISA thing.

Don’t these idiot Dems know that Bush is going to call them “weak on terrorism” whatever they do? Might as well stand up and get some “props” [from people like us] for doing so.

It’s tempting to stamp and scream and “never vote for a Dem,” but we’ve got to be more tactical. Mikulski, an extreme disappointment, is going to get a pithy letter from me [only the staff read & tally them anyway, so don’t waste your time composing great prose]. And I’m going to “chain letter” as many of my friends who are constituents of the Losers as I can, urging them to do the same.

Having worked in a Congressional office, I can tell you that what really hits them is not the intensity of the communications, but the numbers. So please, work on this angle: write AND call [they won’t notice the duplication].

It would be helpful if someone here would develop a list of which of the Senatorial Losers is up in 2008, 2010 etc. For instance, we can save our outrage [re campaigning, not re letters] on Mikulski (not up again ’til 10) and Webb {not up ’til 12). Who is up in 2008?

While angry, I mostly feel heartbroken: over how hard all of us worked, over the donations to ‘good guys’ we solicited from others, over the hope we had that these weak, weak people have dashed.

This is a repost – this site is too fast to keep up. I wrote the following previously – would appreciate comments, including slagging me to ignominious silence:

Totally off topic but relates to a previous post “Put Down the Shovel”by Jane.

I’ve been too busy lately to comment at all but I would be grateful if you would grant me the liberty to make some observations as a total outsider.

Youse r nuts to let being framed as Wesley Clark pointed out very poignantly at YKos – you are following the stooges rather than shaping the frame of the debate that needs to happen.

Obama wants to go into Pakistan. Well, a little bit of history wouldn’t come amiss re this option because its s**t f***ing nuts.

The Taliban comes from the Pakhtun tribal lands straddling Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Pakhtuns are the largest tribal group in the world and constitute 2% of Pakistan’s population of 167m. The Brits devised the Durand Line which split the Pakhtun tribal lands between two countries. The Pakhtuns have never accepted this. The Taliban was created through the Wahhabi intransigent doctrine pushed through Saudi funded madrassas, armed by the CIA with moneys chanelled through Pakistan’s ISI.

The Pakhtuns have never tolerated foreign occupiers – ask the Brits – they should know – they lost three wars against them, including one that spared a lone survivor out of a whole batallion to report back of the ignominy.

The Sauds are staunch American allies – never mind that 19 of them were directly involved in the 9/11 mayhem.

The Pakhtuns and the Talibs have never been to Iraq and most had never heard of Iraq until perhaps six years ago.

Pakistan is largely a secular society that would prefer a democracy to a military dictatorship but US monies keep propping up that which they do not want and that which preserves its power base by undermining civic social infrastructure and using religion as a tool to ensure the country never emerges from an emergency war footing.

Obama wants to boost the the army to go into Pakistan? Crazy – he thinks he will create history that overwrites the last 300 years? That’s just another disaster waiting to happen apart from the fact that it’s likely to convert 160m secular muslims to radical anti-Americanism. How is that going to keep you safe from ‘terrorists’?

‘Actionable’ intelligence is the qualifying baseline for Obama….but you had all the intelligence to prepare for 9/11 in anticipation of existing intelligence but didn’t have the wits to prevent it

HRC says nukes are not off the ‘table’. Hang on there, what’s that going to achieve beyond killing heaps of people and poisoning the food chain for generations? ‘Terrorists’ are not going to go away – you simply cannot nuke them all.

In all this insanity, Kucinich is a lone voice of sanity – unAmerican to Americans but to the world he suggests that the notion of a sane American is not an oxymoron.

I started this rant because I despair of the US electorate’s capacity to ‘elect’ any President with a modicum of political wisdom.

You eschew storming the Bastille while your vaunted democracy gets hijacked that would put Hitler and Stalin to shame.

It is time to shrug off the MSM framing of issues – you have a very large international audience and you have already reshaped the media dynamic so much so that no respectably professional journalist will ignore what the FDL/NH/TPM has to say – in that order.

After three disastrous defeats in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq, it is time enough to clear that vaunted ‘table’ and have options that make sense and restore national pride. The Flag be damned, where is your Constitution?

A handy guide to those who voted “yes” and their home pages:

http://pruningshears.squarespa…..votes.html

G’morning, Christy and everyone else.

On behalf of Minnesota, whose U.S. Senator Amy Klobuchar voted along with Norm Coleman on Bush’s FISA entitlement, I extend profound apologies. I voted for her last year with pretty happy heart and have felt betrayed repeatedly during her short tenure.

I will call or write. And I will get a generic response and she will call that being accountable. I think not.

Morning, Christie,

Sleepily awake with a house fulla visiting relatives…

I’m seriously pissed about FISA too, considering my congressman (Jim Cooper) and a few other Tennessee Blue Dogs voted for it. It would be next to impossible to kick his ass out, and I sure as hell wouldn’t vote for a Republican against him, so I’m stuck. I just hope to Jeebus that when whoever gets elected in 08 — provided they let us have an election — will roll this back.

Have a good day, if it’s possible.

G’morning Christy,

Had trouble sleeping last night. Rage and betrayal will do that to me sometimes. I’m curious as to how Webb and McCaskill will explain their votes.

Plus what’s this I hear there that this will be the last YearlyKos convention? According to the man himself..

link to Kos

Click through for my remarks as delivered Saturday, August 4, at the YearlyKos convention in Chicago — the last YearlyKos convention.

Seems like yesterday was not one of our better days. :(

i’ve been following tommy yum’s son, estan’s carepage. his fever is down (since 4pm yesterday) and his ANC counts are no longer neutropenic.

how’s that for good news?

Good morning, Christy!

I’m not surprised at the FISA vote and outcome.

The Dems didn’t vote that way because of any fear of Bush, either. They voted that way because they are doing the will of their “owners” – corporatist donors, military and government contracters and influential lobbyists.

So the cure is to vote out every single elected official who is not doing the will of “We, the People” at every level – local, state and federal -in 2008.

The sole way to take back what’s left of the country is to purge government of the corrupt.

Then we must purge political hacks throughout every governmental agency at all levels.

Next we must demand legislation which provides reparation (right word) for the Constitutional breaches and obscenities which have been wrought against US.

Finally, we must insist upon policy and programs which are humane, are just and which abide by the Constitution.

The original Sons of Liberty held a tea party. I suggest we have thousands of tea parties.

Our lanterns are our blogs. Our horses are our wireless and broadband and dialup connections.

Our disguises are our handles.

Our Congress is held at YearlyKos and in virtual rooms instead of at Constitution Hall.

We have the tools, we have the means, we have the motivation, we have the leadership and the membership, and most of all – we have the will.

Seven months have gone by. Seven. Only one of the 100-hour measures passed (minimum wage) and that was via caving on Iraq. Everything else is either on hold in the Senate via cloture, or is in limbo due to Repub procedural moves.

Last night was just bitter frosting on a manure layercake, courtesy of the Dems. No, I’m not giving up but, damn, this is disheartening. Seven months and we still have almost no response to subpoenas for evidence (Rove emails anyone?), much less getting past the cannon fodder 30-something Reagent zombies testifying – scratch that – taking the fifth or Executive Privilege in front of the Congressional committees. Seven months and what do we have to show? Dems using harsh language? Can’t even get Fredo – in fact, we’ll even give him more power under the new FISA capitualtion.

Many here (myself included) have been saying for months that Bush would never quit his “all in” style of bluffing. That he would actually increase his disregard for Congress. Basically daring the Dems to impeach, betting that they would fold. So far, they have.

Peevish? All of my folks are livid. Go see the acid at Daily Kos, Jesus save us.

I told you these poeple were not worth working for. I told you they’d fry your brain burnt if you’d tried to help. I told you you’d regret telling all your folks to help the Democrats “fight.”

Now try dealing with this “peevishness” for seven years, not the less than two you’re so proud of!

Actually my morning is terrible and I’m currently trying very hard to be viciously mean, when it would be easy to…..

Okay. Good luck, I’ll do what I can. I’d stay out of this, just leave it, Ms. Harden-Smith, Machiavellian fighting is obviously not your strong point.

I have to go publish. I’m stone cold with my text, but that’s trypical. Glad Chicago went well.

selise @ 12

i’ve been following tommy yum’s son, estan’s carepage. his fever is down (since 4pm yesterday) and his ANC counts are no longer neutropenic.

how’s that for good news?

It’s a ray of sunshine!

I wish someone (anyone) would explain the technical side of this to me. If you’ve got two foreign nationals you want to wiretap (or whatever) then the 4th amendment doesn’t apply (I guess). But if their communications are routed through the U.S., you are required to get a warrant? Do I have that right? Is that what we’re talking about? If it’s not an American citizen being tapped, then I assume the 4th amendment doesn’t apply. And just because the signal goes through the ether via verizon or some entity like it, why does that need a warrant? Isn’t the 4th amendment supposed to protect people, not electronics?

And if all of the above is wrong, then I really don’t get it.

Bottom line: you want to tap an American citizen, get a warrant. You’ve got 72 hours. Period.

hwmnbn @ 11

Plus what’s this I hear there that this will be the last YearlyKos convention? According to the man himself..

link to Kos

Click through for my remarks as delivered Saturday, August 4, at the YearlyKos convention in Chicago — the last YearlyKos convention.

Seems like yesterday was not one of our better days. :(

Not to worry about YKos. They’re just changing the name to ‘Netroots Nation’(or something like that).

lina @ 17

I wish someone (anyone) would explain the technical side of this to me. If you’ve got two foreign nationals you want to wiretap (or whatever) then the 4th amendment doesn’t apply (I guess). But if their communications are routed through the U.S., you are required to get a warrant? Do I have that right? Is that what we’re talking about? If it’s not an American citizen being tapped, then I assume the 4th amendment doesn’t apply. And just because the signal goes through the ether via verizon or some entity like it, why does that need a warrant? Isn’t the 4th amendment supposed to protect people, not electronics?

And if all of the above is wrong, then I really don’t get it.

Bottom line: you want to tap an American citizen, get a warrant. You’ve got 72 hours. Period.

rather than trying to summarize, and probably getting it wrong – i’ll take the easy way out and send you to balkinization. they do it much better than i could.

Good morning everyone.

mornin’ all

I wonder,how difficult is it to arrange and set up venues for a convention? I ask because,what if we held annual regional gatherings as well as a national one? Each part of the country has it’s own political quirks and it’s own needs. People who live in a particular place tend to know better how to get around obstacles also…I’m just thinking out loud about something I have no clue how to do,lol.

It just seems to me that conservatives are forever having meetings and conventions and the like,whereas liberals have little outside of major “blue”metropolitan areas(NYC,DC,LA,etc).That really needs to change,especially in the Southeast. I know the current wisdom is that Dems don’t need the South,but ya know,some of us in the South NEED the Dems. Just sayin’.

More and more often my e-mails are triggering “spam” filters and precluding legitimate communications, Comcast and Verizon have been egregious. As I reside in Europe, I have no “Zip Code” to open e-doors. Hence, with hesitation, I ask to use this forum for an open letter to Madam Speaker, Mrs. Pelosi

Dear Madam Speaker,

I am an expatriate living in Europe. I have watched the U.S. being sucked into an ever-increasing vortex of lies, un-truths, miss-statement, and other mendacities which have changed the very nature of the country from a leading citizen of the world into a nation bearing the guilt of war crimes and crimes against humanity, a pariah nation unequaled in history given the great wealth and power at its disposal.

Now I am watching with chagrin while Congress is seemingly aiding and abetting the gutting and shredding of the Constitution and the structures of government it engenders. Not only the executive administration and the courts are derelict of their oaths of office, the Congress itself has its fingerprints all over the tools of destruction and is become an active participant in the ending of the American Republic. What you smell, Madam Speaker is the burning of the remains of the Constitution.

It is usual that Generals command from the rear, that is to be expected. It is not an attribute of leaders to lead from the rear; greatness is rarely bestowed on such “leaders”. Yours is the first Madam Speaker this country has had and unless your leadership doesn’t start taking a firm hand at leadership, your exercise of position promises to parallel that of Alexander Kerenski’s loosing the government to the Bolsheviks. Just what parts of lying, mendacious, usurping, racketeering, fascists don’t you quite understand or are unable to come to grips with? Do you actually believe there are any Republicans that are not complicit in this coup-de-ètat against the people and the Constitution of the United States? God only knows how many Democrats are also complicit as well.

At this moment in time, the Republic stands in its greatest peril ever and in all likelihood will not survive. The occupier of the Whitehouse has flaunted observing the laws, has obdurately refused constituted oversight, persistently prevaricated, obstructed, destroyed public mandated records, refused to surrender mandated records, created an obscenity of the Office of Vice-President, broken fundamental laws, committed treason, and other High Crimes and Misdemeanors, and remains remiss for accountability for public funds. What makes you think you can do business as usual with these felons, are you yourself delusional as well?

Gal, what the holy hell are you waiting for, an engraved invitation for greatness? Carpe diem. Should you prove incapable to address the issues facing the nation, there will be a glass ceiling at or below your position for women that will last generations. It is not your place to take from any table, what is Constitutionally mandated and you have given oath to uphold. Fish or cut bait, you’re burning daylight.

On the back of Washington’s chair as he presided at the Constitutional Convention was a gilded carving that gave rise for Benjamin Franklin to comment as to wondering whether it was of a sunrise or sunset, and that he concluded for the former. Lady, your watch at the helm, unless you change course forthwith, that carving is of the sunset on the American Republic. I truly hope you find the stature within yourself that some of your predecessors had.

Respectfully yours – A. B.

Looking at Meteor Blades list of Dems who failed us, we need to take out the Blue Dogs in 2008.

solai @ 18

Not to worry about YKos. They’re just changing the name to ‘Netroots Nation’(or something like that).

Thanks. I’ll take all the good news you got!

anangryoldbroad @ 22

I wonder,how difficult is it to arrange and set up venues for a convention? I ask because,what if we held annual regional gatherings as well as a national one? Each part of the country has it’s own political quirks and it’s own needs. People who live in a particular place tend to know better how to get around obstacles also…I’m just thinking out loud about something I have no clue how to do,lol.

It just seems to me that conservatives are forever having meetings and conventions and the like,whereas liberals have little outside of major “blue”metropolitan areas(NYC,DC,LA,etc).That really needs to change,especially in the Southeast. I know the current wisdom is that Dems don’t need the South,but ya know,some of us in the South NEED the Dems. Just sayin’.

This is such an excellent and necessary idea whose time has come! Conventional conventions are a little complex, but unconventional meets are not – depending on the size, many local colleges, universities and churches rent large meeting spaces at minimal cost. And the sites such as meetup et al can also be used to mobilize groups of people using a no cost/low cost framework.

strongly recommend one of pow wow’s comments from last night. here’s the first paragraph:

There’s no hiding it this time. It is oh, so obvious that a deal was done. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi conspired behind closed doors to do the White House’s bidding, and then tried to hide their tracks with empty words and emptier votes. It’s one thing to abandon your branch of government. It’s quite another to do so with malice aforethought and to then attempt to cover your dastardly deed with deceptive parliamentary procedure. Reid and Pelosi own this betrayal and the unAmerican bill it produced, and their true colors are fully revealed tonight for all to see – their carefully-fabricated public facade of “honest, open” government is gone.

Hey Kurt, we miss ya…

“No matter how corrupt, greedy, and heartless our government, our corporations, our media, and our religious and charitable institutions may become, the music will still be wonderful.
If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph: THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD WAS MUSIC.

Now, during our catastrophically idiotic war in Vietnam, the music kept getting better and better. We lost that war, by the way. Order couldn’t be restored in Indochina until the people kicked us out. That war made billionaires out of millionaires. Today’s war is making trillionaires out of billionaires. Now I call that progress.”

Kurt Vonnegut

Hi Folks -

I’ve been so busy at work this week that I’ve hardly had time to even look at the evening news, not that I’d learn anything there.

Can someone please explain to me briefly what the hell happened in Congress yesterday?

Arnie@23:

Gal, what the holy hell are you waiting for, an engraved invitation for greatness? Carpe diem. Should you prove incapable to address the issues facing the nation, there will be a glass ceiling at or below your position for women that will last generations. It is not your place to take from any table, what is Constitutionally mandated and you have given oath to uphold. Fish or cut bait, you’re burning daylight.

Amen, brother, amen!!

Good morning everyone. Christy, I’d like to personally apologize to you and all the Doggies for the Indiana contingent voting with the Blue Dogs, especially Joe Donnelly and of course Sen. Evan Bayh. If it’s any consolation these guys are going to get an earful Monday morning from as many people as we can round up here in the 2nd Dist. and Joe will be hearing from me as soon as I can get a hold of him.

It has been a hard row to hoe to change these seats over to Democrats in Indiana. I blame Evan Bayh for these votes because he can sway these guys very easily and he was one of the Senate Dems who voted for this travesty. We progressive here are in constant cringe mode because we don’t want to lose those seats to the nasty guys and we work on these guys every time we see them. As you can see we still have lots of work to do.

Elliott @ 24

Looking at Meteor Blades list of Dems who failed us, we need to take out the Blue Dogs in 2008.

the problem is, i think, much deeper. the fuckery and kabuki with the house rule, the way the senate vote went down – it all appears to be a deep betrayal by the dem leadership… both in the capitulation and in not being truthful with us.

selise @ 32

Elliott @ 24

Looking at Meteor Blades list of Dems who failed us, we need to take out the Blue Dogs in 2008.

the problem is, i think, much deeper. the fuckery and kabuki with the house rule, the way the senate vote went down – it all appears to be a deep betrayal by the dem leadership… both in the capitulation and in not being truthful with us.

It’s like being stabbed in the back

Some of the threads last night were talking up the idea of giving Cindy Sheehan as much as can be afforded when she announces her run against Pelosi. I believe it is very important to send a message that we are simply not going to accept their crap lying down any more. If Cindy can meet or beat Pelosi in the first fund raising report it would, hopefully, send a jolt of fear into the spineless ones that will move them to start representing their base, defending the constitution and start holding some people accountable. Whatever Rove may have on them should be made to appear as nothing compared to our outrage. They must be made to fear US more than the rethugs.

Morning Christy -

I’m just seriously peevish about the FISA abdication. So pardon me if I get another cuppa coffee and just sit here pissed off for a while. How’s your morning?

I’m the same way. I wish I wasn’t. I wish that I could find some reason, some excuse, some…IMMINENCE, that caused a DEMOCRATIC Congress to not only turn over power from the Judiciary and the Legislature to an executive that this same legislature, not one week ago, was holding in contempt and accusing of federal crimes, but to do so without even a nod to legislative process.

As I said on another site, I’m old enough to remember the last time this country came closest to a true ‘imminent’ threat, back in October of 1962. Back then, there were no secret threats, or increased traffic or other such nonsense. Back then, the Executive rightly believed that the American people could handle being told exactly what the threat was and how dire things might be. And gee, know what? We didn’t run and hide under the bed, nor did we rise up as one and say “oh yes Mr. President, take our liberites away to deal with the big bad Russian monster and the Cuban missles at our door.” We said, ‘Ok, you’re the CoC of THE ARMED FORCES, not us. So go do your job and make us safe’. If Kennedy had even THOUGHT of trying to pull what these guys did there’d be impeachment talk from his own party.

So I tell you now, when the inevitible strawmen of “stop whining”, “would you rather have Republicans” etc. start to come down, (and they will) my answer will be that what I want is for my DEMOCRATIC Congress to act like the majority that it is, i.e. no more cot stunts, no more ’symbolic’ votes that have no chance of passing, no more one-day hearings with three weeks of nothing after. You’re in the majority now, act like it. There is no way this measure should have passed, let alone pass in the manner that it did, save for the fact that the people we pay to do the People’s business were in a hurry to leave DC and stop doing just that.

So yeah, I’ll wait until February. I’ll wiat six months and try to ignore all of the damage that can be accomplished during that period. I’ll wait and watch to see what repulsive recess appointments will be made during this break that our Reps were so keen on getting to; this depite the fact that Reid had threatened to keep the Senate in session during August to stop exactly that (yet another empty promise).

But my wallet stays closed until then. And I think that there is no shame in all of us closing our wallets until February; in all of us letting our Reps know that there is something more to fear than ‘looking weak’ in some DC pundit’s eyes.

When this bill is sunsetted, my wallet will open again.

Elliott @ 33

selise @ 32

the problem is, i think, much deeper. the fuckery and kabuki with the house rule, the way the senate vote went down – it all appears to be a deep betrayal by the dem leadership… both in the capitulation and in not being truthful with us.

It’s like being stabbed in the back

Yes it is. It’s actually being stabbed through the heart – of the Constitution. But as others have said much more eloquently than can I: the Constitution has not been altered. It is up to us to get the corrupt out of office and to elect people who will represent the will of the people and who will support and defend the Constitution. These, then, are the questions we must ask of every official and candidate:
“How will you do the the will of your constituents?”
“How will you support and defend the Constitution?”

Good morning from L.A. Thanks for the early morning chuckles I got from that vid, Christy.

Regarding the gutting of FISA- I forget what intelligence expert said this, but gathering intel in this manner is like trying to look for the needle in a haystack by adding more hay.

Of course, if you’re adding more hay to obscure what you’re really doing & the things you’re really looking for, it does make more sense, doesn’t it…

from jack balkin at balkinization…he begins:

The Party of Fear, the Party Without A Spine, and the National Surveillance State

The passage of the new FISA bill by the Senate and now the House demonstrates that the Democrats stand neither for defending civil liberties nor for checking executive power.

They stand for nothing at all.

Conversely, the new bill shows that the Republican Party can get the Democrats to surrender almost any civil liberty– indeed, to give the President just as much unchecked power as he might obtain under a Republican controlled Congress– simply by playing the fear card repeatedly and without shame.

and ends with:

I hope the Democrats are justly proud of themselves for their cowardly contributions to this slow-motion destruction of our constitutional system.

Balkin is the Knight Professor of Constitutional Law and the First Amendment and Director, The Information Society Project at Yale Law School

N=1 @ 26

anangryoldbroad @ 22

I wonder,how difficult is it to arrange and set up venues for a convention? I ask because,what if we held annual regional gatherings as well as a national one? Each part of the country has it’s own political quirks and it’s own needs. People who live in a particular place tend to know better how to get around obstacles also…I’m just thinking out loud about something I have no clue how to do,lol.

It just seems to me that conservatives are forever having meetings and conventions and the like,whereas liberals have little outside of major “blue”metropolitan areas(NYC,DC,LA,etc).That really needs to change,especially in the Southeast. I know the current wisdom is that Dems don’t need the South,but ya know,some of us in the South NEED the Dems. Just sayin’.

This is such an excellent and necessary idea whose time has come! Conventional conventions are a little complex, but unconventional meets are not – depending on the size, many local colleges, universities and churches rent large meeting spaces at minimal cost. And the sites such as meetup et al can also be used to mobilize groups of people using a no cost/low cost framework.

I live in Metro Atlanta. That’s Atlanta(Fulton County)and anywhere from 8 to 22 surrounding counties(depending on who you talk to). There’s a HUGE problem down here that stops progressive politics in it’s tracks.

Part one of that problem is the Dems here. Like our Blue Dogs that jumped ship over FISA(and god knows what else),if you get them involved with anything,it will get de-railed. If they get wind of what you’re doing,they’ll show up and undermine you or talk shit behind your back. They have a very nice and safe role as the losing team here and they do NOTHING but have cozy little breakfasts and behave like the local bidness association. There’s not a lick of outreach,no money spent on candidates, and the candidates they do run are safe,bland,GOP lite DLC types. Nothing will EVER change here until this problem is overcome.

barbara @ 9

G’morning, Christy and everyone else.

On behalf of Minnesota, whose U.S. Senator Amy Klobuchar voted along with Norm Coleman on Bush’s FISA entitlement, I extend profound apologies. I voted for her last year with pretty happy heart and have felt betrayed repeatedly during her short tenure.

I will call or write. And I will get a generic response and she will call that being accountable. I think not.

Barbara – I was flabbergasted when I read of her vote – now I am furious! What is with her???

Hoosierville says
August 5th, 2007 at 5:58 am

I blame Evan Bayh for these votes because he can sway these guys very easily and he was one of the Senate Dems who voted for this travesty. We progressive here are in constant cringe mode because we don’t want to lose those seats to the nasty guys and we work on these guys every time we see them. As you can see we still have lots of work to do.

Bayh is Lieberman-lite as far as his views about bi-partisanship. I heard him speak here in Indy; he’s basically in favor of bring not even a knife, but rather flowers and candy, to a gun fight. *But*, he usually votes correctly.

As of yesterday, his voice-mail in the D.C. office stiil had space, though I chewed some of it up. You can find all of his contact info here:

http://bayh.senate.gov/index2.html

More on Yearly Kos & blogs coming up on CSPAN 1

Coming up on CSPAN1 – The roll of blogs in the ‘08 Presidential race. Yearly Kos was mentioned.

paradox @ 15

I told you these poeple were not worth working for. I told you they’d fry your brain burnt if you’d tried to help. I told you you’d regret telling all your folks to help the Democrats “fight.”

paradox, i don’t think we were wrong to try to help some dems get elected in nov, 2006. i think we’ve been wrong in not carefully watching what they’ve been doing and holding their feet to the fire very well since then….

‘course i’m not thinking very clearly – too pissed off… so maybe i’m just full of shit.

mcjoan from Kos is current caller on CSPAN1

selise @ 27

strongly recommend one of pow wow’s comments from last night. here’s the first paragraph:

There’s no hiding it this time. It is oh, so obvious that a deal was done. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi conspired behind closed doors to do the White House’s bidding, and then tried to hide their tracks with empty words and emptier votes. It’s one thing to abandon your branch of government. It’s quite another to do so with malice aforethought and to then attempt to cover your dastardly deed with deceptive parliamentary procedure. Reid and Pelosi own this betrayal and the unAmerican bill it produced, and their true colors are fully revealed tonight for all to see – their carefully-fabricated public facade of “honest, open” government is gone.

That’s truth we can move forward with. Facts are facts.

twolf1 @ 45

mcjoan from Kos is current caller on CSPAN1

yep!

selise @ 44

paradox @ 15

I told you these poeple were not worth working for. I told you they’d fry your brain burnt if you’d tried to help. I told you you’d regret telling all your folks to help the Democrats “fight.”

paradox, i don’t think we were wrong to try to help some dems get elected in nov, 2006. i think we’ve been wrong in not carefully watching what they’ve been doing and holding their feet to the fire very well since then….

‘course i’m not thinking very clearly – too pissed off… so maybe i’m just full of shit.

No Selise,I think you have it just right. I propose that the next go-round,Blue America and other likely candidates need more scrutiny. Somehow,some of these folks got the idea it’s ok to say whatever to get elected and then once in office they can succumb to the least bit of pressure. I imagine the pressure to tow the line is enormous,but perhaps we need to pound on that point with any new candidates.

GrandpaR @ 34

Some of the threads last night were talking up the idea of giving Cindy Sheehan as much as can be afforded when she announces her run against Pelosi. I believe it is very important to send a message that we are simply not going to accept their crap lying down any more. If Cindy can meet or beat Pelosi in the first fund raising report it would, hopefully, send a jolt of fear into the spineless ones that will move them to start representing their base, defending the constitution and start holding some people accountable. Whatever Rove may have on them should be made to appear as nothing compared to our outrage. They must be made to fear US more than the rethugs.

Pelosi needs to be done. Go Cindy. I have been feeling for weeks now that the *real* answer is in how we spend our precious funds and effort.

(Sent via her webform)

Senator Mikulski,

I have long been a supporter of yours, and have voted for you many times. It is with some dismay that i now inform you that your lack of leadership in opposing the stripping of my civil rights by the Bush administration — in particular your recent vote on S. 1927 — makes a future vote for you impossible; i will support any progressive candidate who stages a primary run against you.

As a former employee of the NSA, i know all too well what that agency’s capacities are. The Church hearings were held for valid and important reasons, which you are now abnegating. That you would turn it’s unchecked usage over to an administration whose disdain for civil liberties and any balance of power is unthinkable. You disappoint me, Senator. You have lost my respect, and you have lost my vote.

Steve Coogan’s Alan Partridge would make a perfect Sunday morning chat show host.

AP: “Knowing me, Alan Partridge, knowing you Robert Gates, ah-ha!”

RG: “Ah-ha.”

And so on, from that familiar opening.

Who thinks we’re going to get Habeas Corpus back with this Congress??

*crickets*

But my wallet stays closed until then. And I think that there is no shame in all of us closing our wallets until February

Last night I replied to an email from Governor Dean (whom I admire) that I just couldn’t donate. And I told him why. I don’t even know if replies go through but I was so angry.
But my wallet’s not closed. There’s always John Edwards.

If they were going to cave they should have swaped gonzales resignation for vote

grumble grumble idiots

But my wallet stays closed until then. And I think that there is no shame in all of us closing our wallets until February; in all of us letting our Reps know that there is something more to fear than ‘looking weak’ in some DC pundit’s eyes.

When this bill is sunsetted, my wallet will open again.

I have no problem with that. Though it penalizes Dem representatives who do “get it”, they’ll just have to hear, and get sick of, “hey, it’s not necessarily you – but I’m not contributing to a party with so many persons of no courage.”

I think the message would spread quickly around the party. If *nobody* can get campaign funds, I figure the party might get its collective act together right quick.

Bayh is Lieberman-lite as far as his views about bi-partisanship. I heard him speak here in Indy; he’s basically in favor of bring not even a knife, but rather flowers and candy, to a gun fight. *But*, he usually votes correctly.

As of yesterday, his voice-mail in the D.C. office stiil had space, though I chewed some of it up. You can find all of his contact info here:

http://bayh.senate.gov/index2.html

Oh, he is soooo Lieberman, jayt. I just emailed 150 of my close personal friends (((GRIN))) with his and Joe Donnelly’s contact information along with the post by Meteor Blades about the FISA legislation and asked them to pass it on to their close personal friends.

solai @ 53

But my wallet stays closed until then. And I think that there is no shame in all of us closing our wallets until February

Last night I replied to an email from Governor Dean (whom I admire) that I just couldn’t donate. And I told him why. I don’t even know if replies go through but I was so angry.
But my wallet’s not closed. There’s always John Edwards.

I think that the enlightened progressives are demanding populist candidates. And perhaps that’s the direction that the Dems must take in order to be viable.

Or, perhaps that will be the new “third” party for the Independents.

dratty @ 35

Morning Christy -

I’m just seriously peevish about the FISA abdication. So pardon me if I get another cuppa coffee and just sit here pissed off for a while. How’s your morning?

But my wallet stays closed until then. And I think that there is no shame in all of us closing our wallets until February; in all of us letting our Reps know that there is something more to fear than ‘looking weak’ in some DC pundit’s eyes.

When this bill is sunsetted, my wallet will open again.

Our wallets are really our greatest power! There is shame in NOT holding this power close to fight for what we want!!!!!

The terrorism threat is a lie. The only evidence we have that there is a current threat comes from LIARS!!! Everything is being manipulated, even Congress. Pelosi and Reid are now shown to be LIARS too. It’s so sad but facts are facts.

anangryoldbroad @ 48

No Selise,I think you have it just right. I propose that the next go-round,Blue America and other likely candidates need more scrutiny. Somehow,some of these folks got the idea it’s ok to say whatever to get elected and then once in office they can succumb to the least bit of pressure. I imagine the pressure to tow the line is enormous,but perhaps we need to pound on that point with any new candidates.

i think howie has done a fabulous job of vetting candidates – but no one can see into the future, and i’m sure he’s learning from the 2006 experience. i especially like how he’s informed us of when our candidates have seriously fucked up.

but many of us particiated in other things, for example, moveon’s calling gotv program… and with that we just ended up in calling up for whatever dems they thought could help win the house. there was a lot more done here than via blue america.

i was thinking more about the rest of the dems, especially the leadership. and their crappy communication. there’s been a lot of kabuki since january and it’s be hard (for me at least) to try to see through the fog they’ve been usingto obsure what’s going down.

solai @ 53

But my wallet stays closed until then. And I think that there is no shame in all of us closing our wallets until February

Last night I replied to an email from Governor Dean (whom I admire) that I just couldn’t donate. And I told him why. I don’t even know if replies go through but I was so angry.
But my wallet’s not closed. There’s always John Edwards.

I should have made myself more clear. I meant to the D’s (DNC, DSCC, DCCC) not to individual Pres candidates. I happen to consider that race a whole separate compartment.

selise @ 38

“Balkin is the Knight Professor of Constitutional Law and the First Amendment and Director, The Information Society Project at Yale Law School.”

Now THOSE are the credentials of someone I’m willing to listen too about the Constitution AND electronic surveillance.

It’s a glorious Sunday morning in southwestern OK. Today is the annual Senior Citizens big bash. Briskit, pinto beans, rolls, gravy, salad, ice tea, coffee or milk. Bread pudding,
Texas watermelon and ice cream, and music, dominoes, cards and horse-shoes for after. I help cook, and my pal helps serve it up. We will have about three hundred seniors with their families in two shifts. Life is good here by the Red River. Oh, and we are both on KP. Lord I feel like I just stepped off the train in Willoughby. ;0)

I also think(and I’m just full of…thoughts today so buckle up,lol)that we cannot forget that before this gawdawful FISA crap,the Executive Branch had ALL the authority,and then some that it ever needed to “stop the threat of terrorism”. Besides that,this administration don’t need no stinking laws anyway,they prove it over and over. This latest bunch of crap was to give cover to the illegal shit they’ve been doing since they got their filthy mitts on the government. We need to be ramming this down the throats of our congresscritters.

GrandpaR @ 34

Some of the threads last night were talking up the idea of giving Cindy Sheehan as much as can be afforded when she announces her run against Pelosi. I believe it is very important to send a message that we are simply not going to accept their crap lying down any more. If Cindy can meet or beat Pelosi in the first fund raising report it would, hopefully, send a jolt of fear into the spineless ones that will move them to start representing their base, defending the constitution and start holding some people accountable. Whatever Rove may have on them should be made to appear as nothing compared to our outrage. They must be made to fear US more than the rethugs.

Everyone here on FDL, over at KOS, wherever, who is pissed at the Dems in congress should now focus on one thing: getting Cindy Sheehan elected. And then focus on getting one more seat. And then another. One at a time, rather than spreading progressive support across an array of Dem candidates. The objective must be not just to help elect progressives (Carney7 Webb?), but also to help eject entrenched Dems from their insulated seats of power. The enemy of the progressives isn’t really the Repubs. They’ll self-destruct, as is happening. Besides, Repubs can, to their advantage, drain energy and resources away from the progressive movement. No, the real enemy of each and every progressive is each and every Dem who voted for Bush on FISA.

OKK — for last two days it feels like Twilight Zone for me too but not necessarily the “Willoughby” episode.

Did I not hear incorrectly or did the last CSPAN caller say: “I wish the bloggers would start investigating. They need to get online.”

jayt @ 55

But my wallet stays closed until then. And I think that there is no shame in all of us closing our wallets until February; in all of us letting our Reps know that there is something more to fear than ‘looking weak’ in some DC pundit’s eyes.

When this bill is sunsetted, my wallet will open again.

I have no problem with that. Though it penalizes Dem representatives who do “get it”, they’ll just have to hear, and get sick of, “hey, it’s not necessarily you – but I’m not contributing to a party with so many persons of no courage.”

I think the message would spread quickly around the party. If *nobody* can get campaign funds, I figure the party might get its collective act together right quick.

Exactly! Campaign donation boycott, Anyone?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 62

It’s a glorious Sunday morning in southwestern OK. Today is the annual Senior Citizens big bash. Briskit, pinto beans, rolls, gravy, salad, ice tea, coffee or milk. Bread pudding,
Texas watermelon and ice cream, and music, dominoes, cards and horse-shoes for after. I help cook, and my pal helps serve it up. We will have about three hundred seniors with their families in two shifts. Life is good here by the Red River. Oh, and we are both on KP. Lord I feel like I just stepped off the train in Willoughby. ;0)

What a glorious bash, OK!

the dems are doing a great job raising money this cycle. looks like the big money has swung to the Ds.

and that means the party may not be so desperate for our money this cycle (as they were in 2006)….

i don’t have lots of money to donate, so what i do probably doesn’t matter… but at the moment, i’m inclined to donate to primary challengers.

twolf1 @ 66

Did I not hear incorrectly or did the last CSPAN caller say: “I wish the bloggers would start investigating. They need to get online.”

you heard correctly. first time i’ve laughed out loud in the last few days. thank you caller!

Seems like the 9/11 conspiracy people have organized a CSPAN call in. This is the 3rd one in the last 10 mins.

I think the Sheean over Pelosi is misplaced-just my opinion. I am not happy with all that Pelosi does (or generally doesn’t do)but -GIVEN THE REALITY OF HOW WASHINGTON WORKS- i think keeping Pelosi, and keeping the heat on her, is good.

BTW she has asked Conyers for amendments asap…
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661
9h/t to crooksandliars)

They better be talking about this.

Last week two Brookings Institution “scholars”, O’Hanlon and Pollack did a road show on how great our military escalation is going in Iraq. You know, I didn’t realize what a bunch of phony apologists those “think tankers” O’Hanlon and Pollack were until Frank Rich outed them today. Bottom feeder sell-outs like O’Hanlona and Pollack are truly the scum of the Earth. In the grand tradition of Fox and the Fox-Republicans, these partisan cheerleaders disguised as non-partisan experts try to pass themselves off as something they’re not. In the process, US soldiers are dying and being wounded because of the denial and idiotic foreign policy that posers like O’Hanlon and Pollack enable through their deceit. What a way to make a living. I guess they can continue it down in Hell after they are through.

In contrast to claims of military successes, back in reality, I believe the statistics of Americans dead in Iraq last month were 81, the same number as in February and March, before the most recent escalation started. Iraqi casualties rose 33% over the prior month. And by the way on the political front a Sunni faction walked out of the government.

http://select.nytimes.com/2007…..-1.html?hp

twolf1 @ 66

Did I not hear incorrectly or did the last CSPAN caller say: “I wish the bloggers would start investigating. They need to get online.”

I dunno, I wasn’t listening to that call, you must be ROTFL

oops

http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661

Check out this post on Avian intelligence over at the science blogs. It’s changed the way I look at my bird feeders and the Carolina Wrens nesting in my garage.

How’s my morninig? I’m pissed. Thers’ post down below sums much of it up. It’s been discussed all over the net, but this “bipartisan” crap is nauseating, and 41 Reps(along w/ the idiot Senators)- if you’ll please excuse the term- need to be bitch-slapped. Of course, passing the bill is irrelevant, since dipwad is going to do whatever he wants regardless of laws. His utter contempt for the American people and the constitution is clear.
I hate to admit, but there’s an upside to this: when the next horrific act of teerism occurs, it won’t be able to claim (though he no doubt will anyway) that he was tied down by the “partisan” Democrats. But it’s Bullshit.

call c-span now!!!!!!!!!

ruffian @ 72

I think the Sheean over Pelosi is misplaced-just my opinion. I am not happy with all that Pelosi does (or generally doesn’t do)but -GIVEN THE REALITY OF HOW WASHINGTON WORKS- i think keeping Pelosi, and keeping the heat on her, is good.

BTW she has asked Conyers for amendments asap…
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661
9h/t to crooksandliars)

i don’t think sheean is going to beat pelosi…. but i do really like the idea of voicing my opinion of pelosi’s leadership by sending cindy sheehan’s campaign some money. i’ll keep calling pelosi’s office, but it doesn’t appear she’s listening.

ruffian @ 72

I think the Sheean over Pelosi is misplaced-just my opinion. I am not happy with all that Pelosi does (or generally doesn’t do)but -GIVEN THE REALITY OF HOW WASHINGTON WORKS- i think keeping Pelosi, and keeping the heat on her, is good.

BTW she has asked Conyers for amendments asap…
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661
9h/t to crooksandliars)

I do not believe this is true. I’m sorry but this is more lies from liars.

carolyn13 @ 76

Check out this post on Avian intelligence over at the science blogs. It’s changed the way I look at my bird feeders and the Carolina Wrens nesting in my garage.

Thanks for the neat link- I need to think about good things this morning.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 62

It’s a glorious Sunday morning in southwestern OK. Today is the annual Senior Citizens big bash. Briskit, pinto beans, rolls, gravy, salad, ice tea, coffee or milk. Bread pudding,
Texas watermelon and ice cream, and music, dominoes, cards and horse-shoes for after. I help cook, and my pal helps serve it up. We will have about three hundred seniors with their families in two shifts. Life is good here by the Red River. Oh, and we are both on KP. Lord I feel like I just stepped off the train in Willoughby. ;0)

Don’t ever stop posting here, OKK. You’re a real morale booster this a.m. Have a wonderful time today w/those folks.

One of my fave Twilight Zone eps, too :-)

Exactly! Campaign donation boycott, Anyone?

I haven’t donated since they re-funded the war with no deadline.
Nobody’s noticed. And therein lies the problem.

carolyn13 @ 76

Check out this post on Avian intelligence over at the science blogs. It’s changed the way I look at my bird feeders and the Carolina Wrens nesting in my garage.

what an interesting link on bird-brains, thanks!

fdl reader @ 80

ruffian @ 72

I think the Sheean over Pelosi is misplaced-just my opinion. I am not happy with all that Pelosi does (or generally doesn’t do)but -GIVEN THE REALITY OF HOW WASHINGTON WORKS- i think keeping Pelosi, and keeping the heat on her, is good.

BTW she has asked Conyers for amendments asap…
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661
9h/t to crooksandliars)

I do not believe this is true. I’m sorry but this is more lies from liars.

?? You don’t beleive that Pelosi asked that ? Or you don’t “beleive” my opinion? And please watch who is being referred to as a liar here..I take offense to being caled a liar as to my OPINION…but perhaps I misunderstand your meaning

Sona @ #7:
In all this insanity, Kucinich is a lone voice of sanity – unAmerican to Americans but to the world he suggests that the notion of a sane American is not an oxymoron.

right.on.

twolf1 @ 71

Seems like the 9/11 conspiracy people have organized a CSPAN call in. This is the 3rd one in the last 10 mins.

That is because Daily Kos is censoring people who propose 9-11 was an inside job. The evidence is significant, $100,000 to Atta from ISI, the many warnings to Ashcroft which were ignored and the close Bush/BinLaden business and personal relationship. The evidence is also conclusive that Zelikow totally covered up and obstructed the 9-11 Commission.

OT
but it just popped back into my mind:

at noon today, from Book TV
Pulitzer Prize-winning author and biologist
Edward O. Wilson will be our guest for In Depth on August 5th (LIVE Noon-3pm ET). Mr. Wilson, who has taught at Harvard University since the mid-1950s and is currently university research professor there, was named one of America’s 25 most influential people by Time magazine in 1996. His books include: “Sociobiology: The New Synthesis” (1975) “On Human Nature” (1978, awarded Pulitzer Prize), “The Ants” (1990, awarded Pulitzer Prize), “The Diversity of Life” (1992), “Consilience:The Unity of Knowledge” (1998), “The Creation: An Appeal to Save Life on Earth” (2006) and “Nature Revealed: Selected Writings 1949-2006” (2006). You can participate by calling in during the program or by e-mailing your questions/comments to booktv@c-span.org.

[my bold]

ruffian @ 85

?? You don’t beleive that Pelosi asked that ? Or you don’t “beleive” my opinion? And please watch who is being referred to as a liar here..I take offense to being caled a liar as to my OPINION…but perhaps I misunderstand your meaning

in my opinion, it’s kabuki. no amendment is going to be passed with a veto proof margin in this congress. horse was let out of the barn door yesterday. if she didn’t want bad law, she shouldn’t have facilited it on friday and saturday.

Selise~ah so Thanks for clarification

selise @ 89

ruffian @ 85

?? You don’t beleive that Pelosi asked that ? Or you don’t “beleive” my opinion? And please watch who is being referred to as a liar here..I take offense to being caled a liar as to my OPINION…but perhaps I misunderstand your meaning

in my opinion, it’s kabuki. no amendment is going to be passed with a veto proof margin in this congress. horse was let out of the barn door yesterday. if she didn’t want bad law, she shouldn’t have facilited it on friday and saturday.

Kabuki and hand-wringing CYA.

solai @ 83

Exactly! Campaign donation boycott, Anyone?

I haven’t donated since they re-funded the war with no deadline.
Nobody’s noticed. And therein lies the problem.

They would if the so-called ‘netroots nation’ did it as a whole…and publicized the fact that it was doing that.

ruffian @ 85

fdl reader @ 80

I do not believe this is true. I’m sorry but this is more lies from liars.

?? You don’t beleive that Pelosi asked that ? Or you don’t “beleive” my opinion? And please watch who is being referred to as a liar here..I take offense to being caled a liar as to my OPINION…but perhaps I misunderstand your meaning

ruffian: I’m sorry!!!!!!

I believe what Pelosi and Conyers are doing is more kabuki!!!!!

Thanks for the link!

ruffian @ 72

I think the Sheean over Pelosi is misplaced-just my opinion. I am not happy with all that Pelosi does (or generally doesn’t do)but -GIVEN THE REALITY OF HOW WASHINGTON WORKS- i think keeping Pelosi, and keeping the heat on her, is good.

BTW she has asked Conyers for amendments asap…
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661
9h/t to crooksandliars)

and the comments section is currently closed.

1,600 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:

I understand your anger this mornin’ and respect the real understanding and frustration you carry because of the tremendous energy and sacrifice you have invested in tryin’ ta turn this country around these last few years. However, two things have happened in the last two days that point us to ONE single goal, which, if acheived, will create the space to dismantle the entire fascist infrastructure built over the last 26 years.

The debate at Yearly Kos exposed Mrs. Clinton in front of those who matter most to whether or not she acheives the White House on behalf of the oligarchy …the progressive netroots saw with crystaline clarity that Mrs. Clinton is the embodiment of the old corporate “money equals speech” politics. Then last night the Clinton faction of the Democratic Party joined with the corporate fascists to shred the Constitution. These two events a provide the direction signs to avoid the political bridge collapse on the freeway to liberty.

If we can succeed in getting any one of four candidates nominated other than Mrs. Clinton, then we will provide the political space and capture an historical moment to really change things. Chris Dodd, John Edwards or Al Gore are capable of leading this country out of the fascist sewer…and, in my opinion, Al Gore is the non-candidate candidate who best represents the opportunity to create a political future for American democracy.

But just the process of fighting out the nomination process can bring into focus for all non-fascist voters just what we need to irradicate from our politics…if we succeed in stoppin’ Mrs. Clinton, we save our politics, it’s just that simple.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WE HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT AIN’T US!!

sona @ 7

This is a repost – this site is too fast to keep up. I wrote the following previously – would appreciate comments, including slagging me to ignominious silence: [Mod:snip]

It is time to shrug off the MSM framing of issues – you have a very large international audience and you have already reshaped the media dynamic so much so that no respectably professional journalist will ignore what the FDL/NH/TPM has to say – in that order.

After three disastrous defeats in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq, it is time enough to clear that vaunted ‘table’ and have options that make sense and restore national pride. The Flag be damned, where is your Constitution?

Bravo.

Good morning everyone. I’ve got to stop staying up late with you all because then I have trouble getting to sleep afterwards. Especially on a night like last night.

Sona-I agree with everything you say. I especially like the way you (& many others here) give the short version of history with the facts that are the most germaine for foreign policy. I doubt Obama knows one twit about the Pahtuns, so has no clue howto deal with them. My favorite war blog is War Nerd, Gary Brecher, not only because he’s got the most knowledge of anyone I’ve read, but also because he’s way over the top with irreverance. My kinda guy. Here’s where you can scan his columns:
http://www.exile.ru/archive/by….._nerd.html
Here’s his description of Pushtuns:

Pushtuns are — now how can I say this nicely? — insane. The craziest Taliban rules,

and here’s the full article:
http://www.exile.ru/2006-Septe….._nerd.html
(If you’re worried about being spied on, please not that this site has a Russian url. Very subversive.)

Anyway, thanks sona.

Now to read the rest of the comments.

selise @ 19

lina @ 17

I wish someone (anyone) would explain the technical side of this to me. If you’ve got two foreign nationals you want to wiretap (or whatever) then the 4th amendment doesn’t apply (I guess). But if their communications are routed through the U.S., you are required to get a warrant? Do I have that right? Is that what we’re talking about? If it’s not an American citizen being tapped, then I assume the 4th amendment doesn’t apply. And just because the signal goes through the ether via verizon or some entity like it, why does that need a warrant? Isn’t the 4th amendment supposed to protect people, not electronics?

And if all of the above is wrong, then I really don’t get it.

Bottom line: you want to tap an American citizen, get a warrant. You’ve got 72 hours. Period.

rather than trying to summarize, and probably getting it wrong – i’ll take the easy way out and send you to balkinization. they do it much better than i could.

I want to second that recommendation. But it’s confined to the legal technicalities and doesn’t get at the communications technology issues. What I’m going to say is somewhat speculative.

The holy grail of surveillance is pretty much available from a technology perspective. Disk drives are cheap enough that government can store (in perpetuity) everything about everyone, everything that gets transmitted over the phone system, all data, voice, and pictures. They can do a preliminiary scan of all of this data as it is coming in and later do a more intense scan of “interesting” stuff. The technology is available. All they need is permission, well not really permission but rather reasonable assurance that they can’t be successfully prosecuted for collecting all of this and scanning it for “interesting” stuff.

But as we know, “interesting” is in the mind of the beholder. So long as they can say that they were only interested in foreigners and especially terrorists, their scanners can sift through everything. Should their scanners come upon something that might be different for another reason, they really shouldn’t take special note of it. Wink. Wink. How are you going to prove anything in court?

Lindy_94

It’s my understanding that The Gravel doesn’t allow comments on any post.

retirin’ in five @ 91

Kabuki and hand-wringing CYA.

good point. it’s hard work “to run out the clock on the Bush presidency while being just oppositional enough to keep the base sullen instead of mutinous, avoid the terrifying political risks of mounting any genuine challenge to despotic powers asserted by a despised president…”

aw fdlreader~I am sorry for being a bit touchy-so peeved and al. Not surprised one bit. But still peeved.

re:spying & sites. If anyone here thinks that they are NOT being spied upon now~well, I would rethink that.

This just makes legal what they have been doing all along (IMHO)and we are all on their lists!

ruffian @ 72

I think the Sheean over Pelosi is misplaced-just my opinion. I am not happy with all that Pelosi does (or generally doesn’t do)but -GIVEN THE REALITY OF HOW WASHINGTON WORKS- i think keeping Pelosi, and keeping the heat on her, is good.

BTW she has asked Conyers for amendments asap…
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661
9h/t to crooksandliars)

God damn it! Pelosi doesn’t get it. The problem is not to get amendments quickly, but rather to get them right, which takes time. And that’s what was wrong with this rushed exercise these past few days. So far as I can tell, the FISA fix was both unnecessary and effectively has repealed FISA. Perhaps I’m wrong, but how would anyone without a lot of background in communications technology know?

BTW, under TSP the government was apparently listening in on virtually all long-distance land-based communications in the continental United States: the Internet, the telephone system, everything. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/…..klein.html

Coming soon to a corporeal reality near you

Yes America, you are now last years Best Foreign Language film!

Another inside job. Pat Tillman, was murdered covertly, then the killer and those who ordered it are allowed to escape punishment.
________________________
The “secret back-channel message” was a memo known as a P4 that McChrystal wrote on April 29, 2004, to Gen. John Abizaid, head of Central Command, and to two other generals.

The P4 noted rumors that Bush and other top officials “might include comments about Cpl. Tillman’s heroism and his approved Silver Star medal in speeches.” He warned that it “might cause public embarrassment” if the circumstances of Tillman’s death were released.

At this point, I think we need to stop looking quite so much at R vs D and start looking VERY CLOSELY at the money.

Who is funded by what? Which politicians are beholden to which huge corporations?

I think we need to build such a list and in addition press for campaign reforms — I know we have, in general, there’s been bits and pieces all over — but what we need is a huge demand for an end to lobbying practices, hidden corporate strings, the lot.

Because until then, politicians of all stripes will betray us.

If the threat for the FISA fix was real Rove already would have Chimpy dressed up in his flight suit with a bullhorn in hand.

If it was real and 40 Dem Senators and 185 Dem Congressman knew it and voted against stopping it the decibal level eminating from FOX would shatter windows.

Morning, all–

Just watching Gates on MTP. Anyone else think he looks mighty “rode hard & put up wet”?

He can barely look at Russert, and his responses seem positively defeated. Must not have been a very encouraging trip with Condi this week.

Maybe there’s a glimmer of hope for some reality-based thinking in OUR White House?

Back to read comments…

I just e-mailed my congressional delegation about FISA, and other things.

I told Mike McNulty my thanks for voting against it – and also thanked him for nearly giving the House Republicans a collective stroke.

I wrote to Chuck Schumer, thanked him as well – and also let him know how I feel about protecting tax loopholes for hedge fund managers.

I thanked Hillary Clinton for not voting for FISA – and mentioned I thought Edwards was right on lobbyists, but also hoped she’d vote for AMTRAK funding.

It never hurts to let them know you’re paying attention.

NorskeFlamethrower @ 95

1,600 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:

I understand your anger this mornin’ and respect the real understanding and frustration you carry because of the tremendous energy and sacrifice you have invested in tryin’ ta turn this country around these last few years. However, two things have happened in the last two days that point us to ONE single goal, which, if acheived, will create the space to dismantle the entire fascist infrastructure built over the last 26 years.

The debate at Yearly Kos exposed Mrs. Clinton in front of those who matter most to whether or not she acheives the White House on behalf of the oligarchy …the progressive netroots saw with crystaline clarity that Mrs. Clinton is the embodiment of the old corporate “money equals speech” politics. Then last night the Clinton faction of the Democratic Party joined with the corporate fascists to shred the Constitution. These two events a provide the direction signs to avoid the political bridge collapse on the freeway to liberty.

If we can succeed in getting any one of four candidates nominated other than Mrs. Clinton, then we will provide the political space and capture an historical moment to really change things. Chris Dodd, John Edwards or Al Gore are capable of leading this country out of the fascist sewer…and, in my opinion, Al Gore is the non-candidate candidate who best represents the opportunity to create a political future for American democracy.

But just the process of fighting out the nomination process can bring into focus for all non-fascist voters just what we need to irradicate from our politics…if we succeed in stoppin’ Mrs. Clinton, we save our politics, it’s just that simple.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WE HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY AND IT AIN’T US!!

So far as I can tell, Clinton is very much a creature of the DLC and A*P*C. She’d be an improvement over Bush but she’d not undo the damage.

I can’t tell about Obama, and apparently nobody can. He gives a good speech and would attack the tribal areas of Pakistan but not with nukes. Does he have a clue as to the political and military ramifications of such an attack. Or is this just something that sounds good on the campaign trail?

WRT conventions – if you have a science fiction convention in your area or your state, talk to its committee about a class on organizing and running conventions. There’s a lot of accumulated knowledge there: some conventions have been run every year for sixty years (Worldcon and Westercon come immediately to mind).

OT but just wanted to share a letter just sent to Nancy Pelosi. I would encourage everyone to let her know your thoughts.

Madame Speaker:

With the House of Representatives rubber stamp of George W. Bush’s FISA legislation it becomes painfully clear that the Democrats in Congress believe in nothing. Unwilling to check Executive overreach and willing to go along with the chipping away of the bedrock of our Republic, the Constitution, the Democrats under your leadership have no shame. One can’t help but wonder, just what do Democrats believe in if it’s not the Constitution? How disturbing to learn that the Congress of the United States has acquiesed to the demands of a craven and most likely criminal administration. You obviously are not a student of history. This is truly a pity because due to your ignorance of history the nation and it’s citizens in the long run will only suffer. Rights so easily sacrificied on the alter of fear and demagogery are not easily won back. For that, the nation has you and a Democratic Congress, more interested in narrow political calibrations concerning the next election than in an underlying faith in the wisdom of the Founders gift to the American people, the Constitution, to thank.

Should historians, in perhaps a not to distant future, write on the decline of the United States as a constitutional republic they will undoubtebly have much to say on the failure of a Congress willing to tolerate Executive excess and a willingness to surrunder Constitutional guarantees with barely a wimper.

Given the abysmal failure of the Democratic controlled Congress can anyone be surprised that it’s approval ratings are at historic lows? One can only draw a small glimmer of hope in the cowardly betrayal of our Constitution that in the elections in 2008 those candidates that stood behind the Constitution will be rewarded and those that turned a blind eye will suffer resounding electoral defeat.

A great Democrat once said “we have nothing to fear but fear itselt.” Todays Democratic Congress under your leadership have nothing but fear to offer the people and that, Madame, is a prescription for tyranny.

This just makes legal what they have been doing all along (IMHO)and we are all on their lists!

The FISA vote changed precisely nothing in a practical sense. The spying which has been going on will, and would have, continued no matter which way Congress voted. The spying we don’t even know about will continue unabated as well. This whole thing was simply put forward by GFB (George Fucking Bush) as a legal CYA disguised as an imminent terror threat.

So as a practical matter, nothing has changed, with a couple of exceptions. Legal liability for illegal spying has been diminished but not necessarily lost altogether, because there is no doubt that what Congress just authorized is only the tip of the illegal spying iceberg.

The other change is of course the full-blown and very public Democratic meltdown of this weekend. I am not in favor of an August recess this year, but if it has to happen, it’s good that it’s now. Gonna be hard for a lot of Dem’s to show their faces at the moment.

I think that a t-shirt with this on it might sell:

The War on Terror is Over -
The Terrorists have Won

Does anyone actually believe that someone with Pelosi’s political instincts and ability is not aware of how her constituents are thinking and reacting? She MUST know!! That she has done nothing to stop this slow motion train-wreck can only have one of a couple explanations that make any sense to me. 1) She is afraid of something of which we know nothing. (very possible given this administration) or 2) she is being a very cynical, calculating politician betting that all of the crap of this administration will cave in on the rethugs in ‘08 and the Dems will somehow emerge with all the power that the Cons spent 30 odd years building. (Something they’ll let happen when pigs fly!) Perhaps there are some scenarios that I have missed? In either of these cases, however, her responses are not what I want to see in a representative. She may be a delightful person, I suspect she is, but unless there are better explanations for her actions, I believe she’s gotta go!

Here’s Steve Benen over at TPM. My bold:

Caroline Fredrickson, the Washington legislative director for the ACLU, said the other day that Democrats “have a Pavlovian reaction: Whenever the president says the word ‘terrorism,’ they roll over and play dead.”

It’s obviously not all Dems. In giving the president sweeping new surveillance powers, 16 Dems broke ranks in the Senate and 41 in the House. The New York Times explained their motivation.

[W]ith the Senate already in recess, Democrats confronted the choice of allowing the administration’s bill to reach the floor and be approved mainly by Republicans or letting it die.

If it had stalled, that would have left Democratic lawmakers, long anxious about appearing weak on national security issues, facing an August spent fending off charges from Republicans that they had left Americans exposed to threats.

I’m curious, these Dems realize that Republicans are going to call them “weak on terror” anyway, right?

–Steve Benen

I’m surprised Kos allowed Kuchinich to grace the stage never mind speak in the debate.

Playing nice when someone is determined to kick the crap out of you,no matter what,gets you nothing. Except kicked.

jayt @ 111

This just makes legal what they have been doing all along (IMHO)and we are all on their lists!

The FISA vote changed precisely nothing in a practical sense. The spying which has been going on will, and would have, continued no matter which way Congress voted. The spying we don’t even know about will continue unabated as well. This whole thing was simply put forward by GFB (George Fucking Bush) as a legal CYA disguised as an imminent terror threat.

So as a practical matter, nothing has changed, with a couple of exceptions. Legal liability for illegal spying has been diminished but not necessarily lost altogether, because there is no doubt that what Congress just authorized is only the tip of the illegal spying iceberg.

The other change is of course the full-blown and very public Democratic meltdown of this weekend. I am not in favor of an August recess this year, but if it has to happen, it’s good that it’s now. Gonna be hard for a lot of Dem’s to show their faces at the moment.

I resent the removal of liabilities for the illegal spying. I reserve the right for redress!

OK, I’ve done a bit of reading and I think that it all boils down to Reid and Pelosi looking at a big Democratic win in 2008 and they want to keep all that power for themselves.

Nothing else makes sense to me.

sangemon @ 118

OK, I’ve done a bit of reading and I think that it all boils down to Reid and Pelosi looking at a big Democratic win in 2008 and they want to keep all that power for themselves.

Nothing else makes sense to me.

well, unless of course it’s all a sham. a spectacle. a dog and pony show. political theatre. ‘let’s pretend to not like each other’s politics.’

sangemon @ 118

OK, I’ve done a bit of reading and I think that it all boils down to Reid and Pelosi looking at a big Democratic win in 2008 and they want to keep all that power for themselves.

Nothing else makes sense to me.

glenn greenwald agrees.

GrandpaR @ 34

Some of the threads last night were talking up the idea of giving Cindy Sheehan as much as can be afforded when she announces her run against Pelosi. I believe it is very important to send a message that we are simply not going to accept their crap lying down any more. If Cindy can meet or beat Pelosi in the first fund raising report it would, hopefully, send a jolt of fear into the spineless ones that will move them to start representing their base, defending the constitution and start holding some people accountable. Whatever Rove may have on them should be made to appear as nothing compared to our outrage. They must be made to fear US more than the rethugs.

That was me. It would be a symbolic jesture, but I know from dealing with party regulars that even more than poll #s, even more than how many bodies you can put in the field, even more than how well yyour message is recieved–the single most important indicator for party bosses is how much $ you raise.

They truly believe that money talks and bullshit walks.

If you want to get Pelosi to pay attantion, you cause her to lose that first sundraising cycle. Then she will start tal=king phone calls seriously.

Oh, and when you donate to Sheehan, call or e-mail Pelosi’s office and tell her that you did, and why you did it.

Fox Noise: O’Hanlon is talking about the Iraq war that he loves so much. We need a FU or FU and a half to see if the surge is working. To you kossacks, that is a one Friedman Unit=6 months.

We’re almost out the door. But before we go my friend has made the suggestion that we invite a rep from the DLC to explain what it is exactly they do.

Bluetoe @ 110

OT but just wanted to share a letter just sent to Nancy Pelosi. I would encourage everyone to let her know your thoughts.

Madame Speaker:

With the House of Representatives rubber stamp of George W. Bush’s FISA legislation it becomes painfully clear that the Democrats in Congress believe in nothing. Unwilling to check Executive overreach and willing to go along with the chipping away of the bedrock of our Republic, the Constitution, the Democrats under your leadership have no shame. One can’t help but wonder, just what do Democrats believe in if it’s not the Constitution? How disturbing to learn that the Congress of the United States has acquiesed to the demands of a craven and most likely criminal administration. You obviously are not a student of history. This is truly a pity because due to your ignorance of history the nation and it’s citizens in the long run will only suffer. Rights so easily sacrificied on the alter of fear and demagogery are not easily won back. For that, the nation has you and a Democratic Congress, more interested in narrow political calibrations concerning the next election than in an underlying faith in the wisdom of the Founders gift to the American people, the Constitution, to thank.

Should historians, in perhaps a not to distant future, write on the decline of the United States as a constitutional republic they will undoubtebly have much to say on the failure of a Congress willing to tolerate Executive excess and a willingness to surrunder Constitutional guarantees with barely a wimper.

Given the abysmal failure of the Democratic controlled Congress can anyone be surprised that it’s approval ratings are at historic lows? One can only draw a small glimmer of hope in the cowardly betrayal of our Constitution that in the elections in 2008 those candidates that stood behind the Constitution will be rewarded and those that turned a blind eye will suffer resounding electoral defeat.

A great Democrat once said “we have nothing to fear but fear itselt.” Todays Democratic Congress under your leadership have nothing but fear to offer the people and that, Madame, is a prescription for tyranny.

The Speaker’s response:

Dear Bluetoe,

Thank you for your recent letter, in which you express concern about excesses on the part of the Bush White House.

As you know, I share your concern.

Let’s fight together to put a Democrat in the White House and to maintain Democratic control in congress.

Working together, we can make a difference.

Thank you again.

Sincerely,

Nancy Pelosi

ruffian @ 100: Thanks & no worries at all. I *meant* to be more careful than that. And I will be my *usual* careful self just as soon as I stop spitting nails and pull all the nails out of my computer screen.

Anybody got the time/place of the interfaith service? Thanks.

looseheadprop @ 121

That was me. It would be a symbolic jesture, but I know from dealing with party regulars that even more than poll #s, even more than how many bodies you can put in the field, even more than how well yyour message is recieved–the single most important indicator for party bosses is how much $ you raise.

They truly believe that money talks and bullshit walks.

If you want to get Pelosi to pay attantion, you cause her to lose that first sundraising cycle. Then she will start tal=king phone calls seriously.

Oh, and when you donate to Sheehan, call or e-mail Pelosi’s office and tell her that you did, and why you did it.

your idea appeals to me – alot. some $ to sheehan and a note why to pelosi.

[CHS notes: Did I mention no allusions to physical threats in any form to public figures were allowed on this blog? I thought I had…and I dont want to have to explain to the Federal Marshalls service or the Secret Service what our privacy policies are by cell phone from Chicago. Capice?]

Morning All just making the rounds, and thought I’d pop in take the Lakes temperature after last nights series of unfortunate events.

Pelosi sent a letter to Conyers and Reyes, asking that the law be changed when congress reconvenes. A little late, Pelosi.

http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661

‘Morning, all you FirePups!! Rest up, we’re are going to need to tanned, rested and ready to kick some ass tomorrow morning.

egregious–hey, sorry not to catch up with you again; I’m sitting in ORD, flight delayed now twice. Ugh. Should have taken a later flight, I guess.

jayt @ 111

This just makes legal what they have been doing all along (IMHO)and we are all on their lists!

The FISA vote changed precisely nothing in a practical sense. The spying which has been going on will, and would have, continued no matter which way Congress voted. The spying we don’t even know about will continue unabated as well. This whole thing was simply put forward by GFB (George Fucking Bush) as a legal CYA disguised as an imminent terror threat.

So as a practical matter, nothing has changed, with a couple of exceptions. Legal liability for illegal spying has been diminished but not necessarily lost altogether, because there is no doubt that what Congress just authorized is only the tip of the illegal spying iceberg.

The other change is of course the full-blown and very public Democratic meltdown of this weekend. I am not in favor of an August recess this year, but if it has to happen, it’s good that it’s now. Gonna be hard for a lot of Dem’s to show their faces at the moment.

And Bush has managed (with a lot of Dem cooperation) to make the Dems complicit in the FISA mess … just like the IRAQ surge and the MCA and the original authorization for war.

Nola Sue @ 106

Morning, all–

Just watching Gates on MTP. Anyone else think he looks mighty “rode hard & put up wet”?

He can barely look at Russert, and his responses seem positively defeated. Must not have been a very encouraging trip with Condi this week.

Maybe there’s a glimmer of hope for some reality-based thinking in OUR White House?

Back to read comments…

He does seem very subdued and low energy. Could just be jet lag?

argosfalcon @ 129

Morning All just making the rounds, and thought I’d pop in take the Lakes temperature after last nights series of unfortunate events.

the temperature is blue

Here is the only logical explanation I can come up with for the behavior of Congress, why even good guys voted for this monster.

I am not asking anyone to believe any kind of theory, only to walk thru this “if – then” approach.

If you had an element of the government that was willing to terrorize its own citizens, not just once but multiple times, an event could be arranged for August and blamed on the Dems if they didn’t pass this.

The result would be not only damage to part of the country, but anger that would end up in Dems being branded as traitors. All the momentum we are building to restore constitutional government and end the war would evaporate.

Pelosi said that only about half of what is going on is known to the public. Maybe it’s an iceberg, and the dark part is greater than we see. I give her the benefit of the doubt in steering us away from another titanic disaster.

argosfalcon @ 129

Morning All just making the rounds, and thought I’d pop in take the Lakes temperature after last nights series of unfortunate events.

Even the skeeters aren’t lighting- surface temp pretty much @ the boil…

Newsweek: Looking For a Leaker

Aug. 13, 2007 issue – The controversy over President Bush’s warrantless surveillance program took another surprise turn last week when a team of FBI agents, armed with a classified search warrant, raided the suburban Washington home of a former Justice Department lawyer. The lawyer, Thomas M. Tamm, previously worked in Justice’s Office of Intelligence Policy and Review (OIPR)—the supersecret unit that oversees surveillance of terrorist and espionage targets. The agents seized Tamm’s desktop computer, two of his children’s laptops and a cache of personal files. Tamm and his lawyer, Paul Kemp, declined any comment. So did the FBI. But two legal sources who asked not to be identified talking about an ongoing case told NEWSWEEK the raid was related to a Justice criminal probe into who leaked details of the warrantless eavesdropping program to the news media. The raid appears to be the first significant development in the probe since The New York Times reported in December 2005 that Bush had authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on the international phone calls and e-mails of U.S. residents without court warrants. (At the time, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said of the leak: “This is really hurting national security; this has really hurt our country.”)

(snip)

wigwam @ 101

ruffian @ 72

I think the Sheean over Pelosi is misplaced-just my opinion. I am not happy with all that Pelosi does (or generally doesn’t do)but -GIVEN THE REALITY OF HOW WASHINGTON WORKS- i think keeping Pelosi, and keeping the heat on her, is good.

BTW she has asked Conyers for amendments asap…
http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661
9h/t to crooksandliars)

God damn it! Pelosi doesn’t get it. The problem is not to get amendments quickly, but rather to get them right, which takes time. And that’s what was wrong with this rushed exercise these past few days. So far as I can tell, the FISA fix was both unnecessary and effectively has repealed FISA. Perhaps I’m wrong, but how would anyone without a lot of background in communications technology know?

BTW, under TSP the government was apparently listening in on virtually all long-distance land-based communications in the continental United States: the Internet, the telephone system, everything. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/…..klein.html

Yo uknow one the thing (many) things that po’s me about this.

The judical Branch stood up for the Constitution last March when it ruled against the WH. We had fuctioning democracy. All Congress had to do was sit on it’s hands and NOT pass any changes to FISA and the Executive Branch would have remained checked and balanced
(and further violations by SHrub would have added to the list of possible criminal offense for which he might have been tried later).

All they needed to do was nothing. and they couldn’t even get that right!

Do you sense something dark in the water, too, egregious? I have a feeling that the administration has been extorting performance from Congress: Chertoff’s ominous “gut feeling”, executive orders freezing assets with a simultaneous declaration of a national security, other niggling little datapoints…

Nobody launches new product in August, remember. I think they are gaming us all with that in mind.

Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 137

Newsweek: Looking For a Leaker

Aug. 13, 2007 issue – The controversy over President Bush’s warrantless surveillance program took another surprise turn last week when a team of FBI agents, armed with a classified search warrant, raided the suburban Washington home of a former Justice Department lawyer. The lawyer, Thomas M. Tamm, previously worked in Justice’s Office of Intelligence Policy and Review (OIPR)—the supersecret unit that oversees surveillance of terrorist and espionage targets. The agents seized Tamm’s desktop computer, two of his children’s laptops and a cache of personal files. Tamm and his lawyer, Paul Kemp, declined any comment. So did the FBI. But two legal sources who asked not to be identified talking about an ongoing case told NEWSWEEK the raid was related to a Justice criminal probe into who leaked details of the warrantless eavesdropping program to the news media. The raid appears to be the first significant development in the probe since The New York Times reported in December 2005 that Bush had authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on the international phone calls and e-mails of U.S. residents without court warrants. (At the time, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said of the leak: “This is really hurting national security; this has really hurt our country.”)

(snip)

they came for Thomas Tamm…

egregious @ 135 –

could be. but her actions on h.con.r.21, pulling the iran language from the iraq supplemental and then not following through on her promise for a stand alone bill, her secret trade deal with bush… all those things and more are evidence against giving her the benefit of the doubt.

she wants me to trust her? then she needs to start telling us the truth – unvarnished, without spin or kabuki.

So when these illustrious gentlemen and women return home on their vacation/fund raising tours will they feel the geothermal heat beneath their feet? Or now having been in Washington so long that they once again have forgotten that they were there protect the Constitution and the rights of the citizens of this country.

“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” James Madison

selise @ 120

sangemon @ 118

OK, I’ve done a bit of reading and I think that it all boils down to Reid and Pelosi looking at a big Democratic win in 2008 and they want to keep all that power for themselves.

Nothing else makes sense to me.

glenn greenwald agrees.

I have been hearing that from ex-Clinton WH folks for months now.

That is THE MOST assanine thing I have heard. it’s not right when Goopers do it, it’s not right if Dems do it.

This is supposed to be a nation of laws not men. This should also be a nation of laws not political parties

Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 137 –

all leakers and reporters are fucked now. leaks are the justification for spying on them all.

looseheadprop @ 144

I have been hearing that from ex-Clinton WH folks for months now.

That is THE MOST assanine thing I have heard. it’s not right when Goopers do it, it’s not right if Dems do it.

This is supposed to be a nation of laws not men. This should also be a nation of laws not political parties

wow. so it’s not just inference.

dean said that dems put the country before the party. too bad pelosi and reid don’t think like that.

once again – stupid and imoral.

we’re becoming a nation of unjust laws, unjustly applied.

Democrats hear us ROAR!

We, the People, want Confrontation with the evil that is this administration, not Cowardice in the face of their fear-mongering!

Confrontation! NOT Cowardice!

looseheadprop @ 144

selise @ 120

glenn greenwald agrees.

I have been hearing that from ex-Clinton WH folks for months now.

That is THE MOST assanine thing I have heard. it’s not right when Goopers do it, it’s not right if Dems do it.

This is supposed to be a nation of laws not men. This should also be a nation of laws not political parties

Right!

The think that galls me most is that the Ds are now following the Rs’ M.O.: party above country.

It’s wrong when they do it, and it wrong when we do it.

Which is why, IMO, the single most important issue we need to focus on (’scusing saving our Constitution, of course) is public campaign financing. Until we get the money out, we’ll never make meaningful change to anything else: war, energy, healthcare, environment, etc.

The Newspeak Hour has started here in Florida and rather than waste my time on that dribble, I thought I’d revisit a speech made in April of 1964. My motivation was various rumblings I’ve heard and read about the possibility of BushCo canceling the election in 2008. Not that I would put anything past this pack of jackals…nah, that ain’t right, that’s an insult to jackals…this pack of thieves, but hope springs eternal. Have a listen to 50 minutes of Malcolm X on 12 April 1964. The Ballot or The Bullet.

http://www.brothermalcolm.net/…..aid13.html

Two parts, you can download it or listen online. It’s RealAudio and your system may require a codec upgrade, which the player does automatically. Hey, this stuff was digitized when Windoze 95 dinosaurs ruled the earth, chill.

egregious @ 135

Here is the only logical explanation I can come up with for the behavior of Congress, why even good guys voted for this monster.

I am not asking anyone to believe any kind of theory, only to walk thru this “if – then” approach.

If you had an element of the government that was willing to terrorize its own citizens, not just once but multiple times, an event could be arranged for August and blamed on the Dems if they didn’t pass this.

The result would be not only damage to part of the country, but anger that would end up in Dems being branded as traitors. All the momentum we are building to restore constitutional government and end the war would evaporate.

Pelosi said that only about half of what is going on is known to the public. Maybe it’s an iceberg, and the dark part is greater than we see. I give her the benefit of the doubt in steering us away from another titanic disaster.

EG,
I f you are suggesting that Pelosi has reason to believe that the WH would phyically harm Amrican citzens in order to stage a mock Terrorist event–

Then Pelosi had an obligation to blow the whistle. Out loud. And intead of caving in to gutting the constitutiton she could have propsed legilaion to empower a new special prosecutor law.

i think coming on the heels of apress conferenvce outing such a plot, that legislation would pass on unanimous consent.

Therefore, I can’t buy into you theory. It cuts the other way

New Thread From Christy

a bit of good news
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…../#comments
upstairs

“ The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government – lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.” Patrick Henry

testing

n=1
you still here?

in the middle of the night, i had my am radio tuned to 1030 boston-don’t know the call letters……..there was an advertisement for a nursing care facility’s job fair……they listed a ton of jobs…..
thursday, August 9th 9-2?-not sure of the time……..

was half-asleep, think they said the name was brooksea care facility, in peabody…….had a contact person, but didn’t get that, the radio station could tell you………they did have a website- ericson.com/careers…………

hope it helps.

Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 137

Newsweek: Looking For a Leaker

Aug. 13, 2007 issue – The controversy over President Bush’s warrantless surveillance program took another surprise turn last week when a team of FBI agents, armed with a classified search warrant, raided the suburban Washington home of a former Justice Department lawyer. The lawyer, Thomas M. Tamm, previously worked in Justice’s Office of Intelligence Policy and Review (OIPR)—the supersecret unit that oversees surveillance of terrorist and espionage targets. The agents seized Tamm’s desktop computer, two of his children’s laptops and a cache of personal files. Tamm and his lawyer, Paul Kemp, declined any comment. So did the FBI. But two legal sources who asked not to be identified talking about an ongoing case told NEWSWEEK the raid was related to a Justice criminal probe into who leaked details of the warrantless eavesdropping program to the news media. The raid appears to be the first significant development in the probe since The New York Times reported in December 2005 that Bush had authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on the international phone calls and e-mails of U.S. residents without court warrants. (At the time, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said of the leak: “This is really hurting national security; this has really hurt our country.”)

(snip)

Very interesting. It he was smart enough to be the leaker, I’m hoping he was smart enough to leave no tracks. Deep Throat managed it for 30 years. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for Mr. Tamm, though it is ominous that they showed up at his door.

sona @ 7

This is a repost – this site is too fast to keep up. I wrote the following previously – would appreciate comments, including slagging me to ignominious silence:

Totally off topic but relates to a previous post “Put Down the Shovel”by Jane.

I’ve been too busy lately to comment at all but I would be grateful if you would grant me the liberty to make some observations as a total outsider.

Youse r nuts to let being framed as Wesley Clark pointed out very poignantly at YKos – you are following the stooges rather than shaping the frame of the debate that needs to happen.

Obama wants to go into Pakistan. Well, a little bit of history wouldn’t come amiss re this option because its s**t f***ing nuts.

The Taliban comes from the Pakhtun tribal lands straddling Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Pakhtuns are the largest tribal group in the world and constitute 2% of Pakistan’s population of 167m. The Brits devised the Durand Line which split the Pakhtun tribal lands between two countries. The Pakhtuns have never accepted this. The Taliban was created through the Wahhabi intransigent doctrine pushed through Saudi funded madrassas, armed by the CIA with moneys chanelled through Pakistan’s ISI.

The Pakhtuns have never tolerated foreign occupiers – ask the Brits – they should know – they lost three wars against them, including one that spared a lone survivor out of a whole batallion to report back of the ignominy.

The Sauds are staunch American allies – never mind that 19 of them were directly involved in the 9/11 mayhem.

The Pakhtuns and the Talibs have never been to Iraq and most had never heard of Iraq until perhaps six years ago.

Pakistan is largely a secular society that would prefer a democracy to a military dictatorship but US monies keep propping up that which they do not want and that which preserves its power base by undermining civic social infrastructure and using religion as a tool to ensure the country never emerges from an emergency war footing.

Obama wants to boost the the army to go into Pakistan? Crazy – he thinks he will create history that overwrites the last 300 years? That’s just another disaster waiting to happen apart from the fact that it’s likely to convert 160m secular muslims to radical anti-Americanism. How is that going to keep you safe from ‘terrorists’?

‘Actionable’ intelligence is the qualifying baseline for Obama….but you had all the intelligence to prepare for 9/11 in anticipation of existing intelligence but didn’t have the wits to prevent it

HRC says nukes are not off the ‘table’. Hang on there, what’s that going to achieve beyond killing heaps of people and poisoning the food chain for generations? ‘Terrorists’ are not going to go away – you simply cannot nuke them all.

In all this insanity, Kucinich is a lone voice of sanity – unAmerican to Americans but to the world he suggests that the notion of a sane American is not an oxymoron.

I started this rant because I despair of the US electorate’s capacity to ‘elect’ any President with a modicum of political wisdom.

You eschew storming the Bastille while your vaunted democracy gets hijacked that would put Hitler and Stalin to shame.

It is time to shrug off the MSM framing of issues – you have a very large international audience and you have already reshaped the media dynamic so much so that no respectably professional journalist will ignore what the FDL/NH/TPM has to say – in that order.

After three disastrous defeats in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq, it is time enough to clear that vaunted ‘table’ and have options that make sense and restore national pride. The Flag be damned, where is your Constitution?

good post.

Nola Sue @ 148

looseheadprop @ 144

I have been hearing that from ex-Clinton WH folks for months now.

That is THE MOST assanine thing I have heard. it’s not right when Goopers do it, it’s not right if Dems do it.

This is supposed to be a nation of laws not men. This should also be a nation of laws not political parties

Right!

The think that galls me most is that the Ds are now following the Rs’ M.O.: party above country.

It’s wrong when they do it, and it wrong when we do it.

Which is why, IMO, the single most important issue we need to focus on (’scusing saving our Constitution, of course) is public campaign financing. Until we get the money out, we’ll never make meaningful change to anything else: war, energy, healthcare, environment, etc.

So how do you get the people who profit most from money being in politics to vote against that? They are the ones that make the laws,they aren’t gonna do away with the money.They might make a dinner here or a trip there illegal,but at the end of the day,it doesn’t make a dent in the corruption. All our elected officials are wealthy,they like money. IMO it’s money that’s coming before country,before party,before everything else.

eCAHNomics @ 96

/em>

My favorite war blog is War Nerd, Gary Brecher, not only because he’s got the most knowledge of anyone I’ve read, but also because he’s way over the top with irreverance. My kinda guy. Here’s where you can scan his columns:
http://www.exile.ru/archive/by….._nerd.html
Here’s his description of Pushtuns:
and here’s the full article:
http://www.exile.ru/2006-Septe….._nerd.html
(If you’re worried about being spied on, please not that this site has a Russian url. Very subversive.)

Wow; you call that irreverant? He sounds like a racist to me.

looseheadprop @ 150

egregious @ 135

Here is the only logical explanation I can come up with for the behavior of Congress, why even good guys voted for this monster.

I am not asking anyone to believe any kind of theory, only to walk thru this “if – then” approach.

If you had an element of the government that was willing to terrorize its own citizens, not just once but multiple times, an event could be arranged for August and blamed on the Dems if they didn’t pass this.

The result would be not only damage to part of the country, but anger that would end up in Dems being branded as traitors. All the momentum we are building to restore constitutional government and end the war would evaporate.

Pelosi said that only about half of what is going on is known to the public. Maybe it’s an iceberg, and the dark part is greater than we see. I give her the benefit of the doubt in steering us away from another titanic disaster.

EG,
I f you are suggesting that Pelosi has reason to believe that the WH would phyically harm Amrican citzens in order to stage a mock Terrorist event–

Then Pelosi had an obligation to blow the whistle. Out loud. And intead of caving in to gutting the constitutiton she could have propsed legilaion to empower a new special prosecutor law.

i think coming on the heels of apress conferenvce outing such a plot, that legislation would pass on unanimous consent.

Therefore, I can’t buy into you theory. It cuts the other way

This is one of the more powerful exchanges I have read here or on any site! It takes us back to Anthrax (and still no findings), 9/11 and Tillman. I am a rationalist and think that there must have been some reason that they thought was viable. But the sham of what they did sticks in the throat. And, I can’t help but think that for far too many it was the 1) STILL anxiousthat they would be labeled back home as soft on terra; 2) sticking to a policy to use this to shovel more blame on the rethugs later (i.e. they did everything they were asked to do and the Preznit and his party still fucked up- the Constitution be damned, as well as our soldiers. And by the way, this is just a prelude for September when they WILL vote to continue th Surge because, well, just because (since there is NO evidence it is working).

anangryoldbroad @ 158

Nola Sue @ 148

Right!

The think that galls me most is that the Ds are now following the Rs’ M.O.: party above country.

It’s wrong when they do it, and it wrong when we do it.

Which is why, IMO, the single most important issue we need to focus on (’scusing saving our Constitution, of course) is public campaign financing. Until we get the money out, we’ll never make meaningful change to anything else: war, energy, healthcare, environment, etc.

So how do you get the people who profit most from money being in politics to vote against that? They are the ones that make the laws,they aren’t gonna do away with the money.They might make a dinner here or a trip there illegal,but at the end of the day,it doesn’t make a dent in the corruption. All our elected officials are wealthy,they like money. IMO it’s money that’s coming before country,before party,before everything else.

We’re getting EPUd here, and I’m definitely no expert. But from what I’ve understood, many politicians would be glad to ditch the fundraising part of their job description. And we’d be glad to have them focused on doing their jobs and not beholden to big-money interests.

Millineryman @ 98

Lindy_94

It’s my understanding that The Gravel doesn’t allow comments on any post.

Comments can be sent via the Contact page.

Richmond @ 160

looseheadprop @ 150

EG,
I f you are suggesting that Pelosi has reason to believe that the WH would phyically harm Amrican citzens in order to stage a mock Terrorist event–

Then Pelosi had an obligation to blow the whistle. Out loud. And intead of caving in to gutting the constitutiton she could have propsed legilaion to empower a new special prosecutor law.

i think coming on the heels of apress conferenvce outing such a plot, that legislation would pass on unanimous consent.

Therefore, I can’t buy into you theory. It cuts the other way

This is one of the more powerful exchanges I have read here or on any site! It takes us back to Anthrax (and still no findings), 9/11 and Tillman. I am a rationalist and think that there must have been some reason that they thought was viable. But the sham of what they did sticks in the throat. And, I can’t help but think that for far too many it was the 1) STILL anxiousthat they would be labeled back home as soft on terra; 2) sticking to a policy to use this to shovel more blame on the rethugs later (i.e. they did everything they were asked to do and the Preznit and his party still fucked up- the Constitution be damned, as well as our soldiers. And by the way, this is just a prelude for September when they WILL vote to continue th Surge because, well, just because (since there is NO evidence it is working).

I don’t get it though, no matter what the Dems do, the Rethuglicans will always say the same damn things. They’ll always blame the Dems.

Hoosierville @ 56

Bayh is Lieberman-lite as far as his views about bi-partisanship. I heard him speak here in Indy; he’s basically in favor of bring not even a knife, but rather flowers and candy, to a gun fight. *But*, he usually votes correctly.

As of yesterday, his voice-mail in the D.C. office stiil had space, though I chewed some of it up. You can find all of his contact info here:

http://bayh.senate.gov/index2.html

Oh, he is soooo Lieberman, jayt. I just emailed 150 of my close personal friends (((GRIN))) with his and Joe Donnelly’s contact information along with the post by Meteor Blades about the FISA legislation and asked them to pass it on to their close personal friends.

Bayh is a DLC’er.

Never take counsel of your fears — Andrew Jackson.

Rayne @ 139

Do you sense something dark in the water, too, egregious? I have a feeling that the administration has been extorting performance from Congress: Chertoff’s ominous “gut feeling”, executive orders freezing assets with a simultaneous declaration of a national security, other niggling little datapoints…

Nobody launches new product in August, remember. I think they are gaming us all with that in mind.

How long have I been saying this????

Everything is being done in the open and not one Democratic congress person…not fucking one….can say s/he was unaware of what was happening.

I’ve been reading and re-reading everything I can get my hands on about how Hitler came to power. The Night and Fog order whereby people just disappeared and weren’t heard from again, the laws to “purify” the civil service thereby removing Jews and other suspect people from positions where they could have helped stop the movement.

Most importantly, a secret meeting Hitler held with the leading industrialists in 1932; this followed a similar meeting at Himmler’s house where Himmler laid out Hitler’s program in stark detail, right down to the Final Solution.

I equate this with Bush’s meeting with influential Christian fundies to which no media was privy and of which we know nothing to this day and Cheney’s secret energy task force.

I believe Bush and Cheney told their zealot Christain buddies that all civil liberties would be suspended but that this was needed to correct the wayward direction America was headed.

Cheney told his oil company buddies that there would be a free-for-all for American businesses and that there would be tons and tons of profits to be made because the administration was going to do away with regulation and tax burdens and that there would be absolutely no repercussions.

In all these things they have been right…Deocrats have been shut down just like the social democrats and socilaists were shot down in the run up to WWII.

If what occurred after WWII is any indication, there will be NO punishments for the people who have ruined this country and none of them will ever see jail. If you doubt me read up on what happened when it came time to prosecute former Nazis and denazify German industries….the Allies were the biggest impediment to investigating and prosecuting war criminal.

anangryoldbroad @ 22

…

It just seems to me that conservatives are forever having meetings and conventions and the like,whereas liberals have little outside of major “blue”metropolitan areas(NYC,DC,LA,etc).That really needs to change,especially in the Southeast. I know the current wisdom is that Dems don’t need the South,but ya know,some of us in the South NEED the Dems. Just sayin’.

I suspect there are plenty in the South who didn’t quite feel the shock of not receiving federal government assistance when Katrina devastated the Gulf coast. We’ll probably have to have more of those destroying Red states before the public gets the idea (finally) that they DO need government and Dems are pretty good at that.

I’d suggest ripping out all the interstate highways to let ‘em know what it’s like to do without federal government help, but I’ve been chided for even suggesting that. Now we’ve got Katrina and they still don’t know that ’small government, low taxes’ Republicans will let NOLA die and bridges collapse without blinking an eye.

It is amazing that it is the US policy to increase the chances of
accidental nuclear war. This has been commented on in depth in my
blog. Why isn’t anyone doing anything about this insanity? We should start a campaign to change the policy. I think the arguments in my blog can help. Or would you prefer that we all be annihilated? It is not only Bush, it is all those who can act, like you, but are not.

RM

–
click on

Science blog
impunv.wordpress.com
or
impunv.blogspot.com

Political blog
randomabsurdities.wordpress.com