Zed!

Am I first?

It’s too late to be “thoroughly pissed and digusted.”

You’re wasting your time talking to Democrats who will stab you in the chest at the first opportunity (they don’t even bother with the back anymore.)

We need genuine change in this country and it’s not going to come from Business As Usual.

Digby’s a superstar, yeah, annnnd….

You don’t mind if we’re proud of our OWN reddhedd superstar, do ya? ;->

Adie @ 4

Digby’s a superstar, yeah, annnnd….

You don’t mind if we’re proud of our OWN reddhedd superstar, do ya? ;->

Thanks for saying that, Adie.

Man, I have GOTTA figure out how to get the YouTube sound working on my Fedora 7 Firefox browser…

Pink – Talent AND Brains… I like it!

let’s get up off our asses.

Christy, I’ve never said thanks. Thanks.

OT with apologies, but for those smitten by articulate, world-class biologists,

E.O. Wilson is being interviewed on C-Span 2

today. 12N – 3p.m. EDT, i.e., NOW!

This reminds me of a friend who recently signed blank mortgage documents because the broker told her it was necessary. She had not yet been told the interest rate and the takeout had been increased by $20,000 to cover the interest rate buydown that the $8000 loan fee wasn’t going to cover.

She felt studpid and trapped and helpless.

This is how Americans feel about what is going on in Washington. I am sure that most members of congress feel the same, but they go along with whatever is being promoted as long as they are invited to the party.

We want the firefighters to do thier job, we want our bridge inspectors to do thier jobs, and we want congress to read thier bills (at least know what is in it) and to do thier jobs. Why is it so hard? Just go back to basics, read, understand, and vote. Do the job. Thats all.

I want my damn country back.

The question I keep returning to is why are they doing it?

Christy,

Ater this heinous vote, I look forward to any ideas percolating in your brain right now. The Dems vote on FISA was depressing, infuriating, and god-awful dumb. But the one thing for sure, is that if you look back on how the conservatives built their movement, they didn’t give up when things looked bleak and we sure as hell shouldn’t either. Time to get up off our asses!

tbsa at 12 — If I had a nickel for every time I asked myself that question…

The blog threads have been alive with outrage over Pelosi and Reid’s slimy enabling of this, in a cloak-and-dagger way that makes them appear ‘clean’ of the stain.

They both like to smile in our faces and give us platitudes, but how many times have these two given us the shiv between the ribs, though admittedly with a double twist of the wrist, of course.

I’m disgusted with both of them.

Thanks for this, Christy, and for the previous post with a bit of good news. As I read, I doodled–my list of campaigns where my limited funds will go.

Tom Allen, John Hall (thanks for the reminder), Chellie Pingree (in Maine, against #$^! Susan Collins), John Edwards because he seems to be the only one talking about real change from Beltway same old same old.

Two little things I did:

Made a blog home for progressive policy bloggers, readers and commenters. Door’s open, coffee’s on – come on over, and opine as to the blog rules, write some posts, and make it a home for all forms of policy, issues and analysis. (I’m going to play host and coordinator there – I’m not a policy wonk, but I’ll continue to dabble in my healthcare pond.)

The other is to work on next steps:

Capitalizing on the breadth and depth of talent, motivation, resources and commitment of the progressive blogosphere and how it can exert its influence to bring Congress to heel and to begin to repair the breeches to the Constitution.

Would FDL consider posting a weekly or more often forum to dicuss the above? And would other group blogs such as DK, MyDD, Open Left, MLW, etc. do the same?

And a final thought: The Gavel would be a great place to focus comments for high impact. The commenters should be persistent – daily comment left, on message, and identify themselves as a member of the progressive blogosphere, as opposed to other sub-constituencies.

The end of Howard Dean’s keynote address…

When I was a freshman in college in 1968, Martin Luther King was killed, and Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. And I remember very much exactly where I was that day, and exactly what that was like. Now, these young folks under 30, they learn about Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy and John Lewis and folks like that–they learn about that in history books, but they didn’t live it the way people in my generation lived it. They see it as a moment in history–it’s history to them.

What I say to young folks is this: you need to remember that Martin Luther King was not just an ideal that we all worked towards in terms of inclusion and treating people properly. That he was a human being. It was 13 years between the Montgomery Bus Boycott and the signing of the Civil Rights Bill. Thirteen years! Not every day was a good day for Dr. King and his folks during those thirteen years. There were a lot of times that he and his folks had to get up and dust themselves off and go out and do something else that was really tough. And not all of them survived that.

And so what I say to all Americans, but particularly young people, is that this is not a one day or one election struggle. This is something we have to do every single day for the rest of our lives. (Cheers and applause.) Every single day for the rest of our lives. And when we get knocked down, we’re going to stand up again for the core principles of America. Because America was knocked down by the far right wing of the Republican party in the last 8 years, and by God we’re going to get up, and we’re going to recover, and stand up for what we used to stand up for. We are going to regain the moral leadership that made America a great country, and we are going to live again in America, and stand up, and lead the world to the Promised Land. Thank you very much.

If you look at the votes, it is the Bluedog coalition almost to a person. Centrists and rightists who’s political lives are ruled by the fear of catching the wrath of the Limbaugh/Coulter crowd.

Liebercrats.

-GSD

There’s no need to fear…

Would that notion involve sending a supply of K-Y to some people who obviously need it?

after watching DiFi do such an excellent job in the DOJ hearings and the watching her vote on FISA, I can only conclude that she is compromised in some way…

it could be business interests but it could be something else… I have no idea, but the word “compromised” sure leaps to the front of my tongue.

tbsa @ 12

The question I keep returning to is why are they doing it?

As I said before in an earlier thread, they’re looking at a big win in 2008 and want to keep the power for when they get it.

It’s disgusting.

dead last @ 10

This reminds me of a friend who recently signed blank mortgage documents because the broker told her it was necessary. She had not yet been told the interest rate and the takeout had been increased by $20,000 to cover the interest rate buydown that the $8000 loan fee wasn’t going to cover.

She felt studpid and trapped and helpless.

This is how Americans feel about what is going on in Washington. I am sure that most members of congress feel the same, but they go along with whatever is being promoted as long as they are invited to the party.

We want the firefighters to do thier jobd, we want our bridge inspectors to do thier jobs, and we want congress to read thier bills (at least know what is in it) and to do thier jobs. Why is it so hard? Just go back to basics, read, understand, and vote. Do the job. Thats all.

That should be illegal – but it also reminds me of what the Dems did on the Iraq war, the credit card issue, the bankrupcy bill, the non-action on mortgages that has caused nearly 50% increase in losses in my state. The DCC type Dems have been drinking cool-aid too long. With the 4th estate (mass media pro-Rethug) and the judiciary now also pr-Rethug -as Leahy indeed has pointed out- there is little to counter it. And in what little power we have, we need to be very strategic.

I like that Home Depot switched on support for O’Reilly. I would love to see a mass move against Savage’s local radio advertisers. It doesn’t change the Congress votes, but it does show them that we can impact business- and for them business (not the people) is the Congress’s business.

Jonathan @ 8

Christy, I’ve never said thanks. Thanks.

Me too. While reading the FISA threads yesterday, with all of the “I quit” BS, I was thinking that a CHS kick in the ass is needed about now. It was also interesting that despair attracts trolls. A lot of new screen names were showing up, talking about no more money for the “Democrat” party, we need a third party, blah, blah.

I do not understand this rush to suck pass Bush’s agenda on this FISA thing. I watched the video jane posted of Sheila Jackson Lee with tears in my eyes. I’ve known Sheila for years – ever since she was a lowly HOuston judge, I’ve worked with Sheila. She is a powerhouse. Why isn’t she in more of a leadership position? What are the White Men (and women) afraid of?

The Republicans got as far as they did by acting in unison. Obvious, and it’s what Tom Delay was all about.

Lack of central unifying organization for the Dems will result in the ‘06 revolt running out of steam, as they won’t build on it.

Can I say something hopeful? Or maybe it’s just naive…

Presidential candidates came to Yearly Kos.

That’s a BIG BO deal. First it is enough that they come and kiss the ring. Later, if you conitue to grow your power, they take direction form you.

Maybe Tula can give us some history on this, but my daddy wa aTeamster. He used to tell stories about the early days of the labor movement and how in the beinning it was considered a small miracle if apolitician was willing to be seen in the same room with labor leaders.

A generation later, Presidential cnadidates were kissing the rings of union presidents.

In only 2 short years, the blogospere has got major Dem Presidetial candidate coming to kiss the ring.

FDL has got front runners doing guest posts.

That is amazing progress in a very short time.

We have amassed incredible power in very short time. Now we have to learn how to weild it.

Maybe part of the problem is our own growing pains?

Regarding why, I just keep thinking that Karl’s database of blackmail material scares the hell out of them, individually….and if they ever admitted to each other that there’s something out there that could embarrass — or worse — these enablers, maybe, just maybe they would stand up to the bullies, hoping there’s safety in numbers. Not likely to happen, but I can always hope.

More likely it’s that they are afraid if they vote for democracy and the constitution, if something happens they’ll be painted as unpatriotic. Those dire warnings aren’t aimed at just keeping the citizens scared, but to get the dems to doubt themselves and play it ’safe’…which is of course not at all safe, not if they value this country as a democracy.

Subway Serenade @ 20

There’s no need to fear…

I love that – and your blog! Thanks!

OldCoastie @ 21

after watching DiFi do such an excellent job in the DOJ hearings and the watching her vote on FISA, I can only conclude that she is compromised in some way…

it could be business interests but it could be something else… I have no idea, but the word “compromised” sure leaps to the front of my tongue.

There is something weird going on with DiFi she has a bill that would take control of elections out of the states and make the very fucked up and totally misnamed Election Assistatnce Commision (which is supposed to sunset) permanet.

This as got to be the craziest piece of legislation I have seen in a while.

tbsa @ 12

The question I keep returning to is why are they doing it?

Twenty years of being trained by the Mighty Wurlitzer, corporate media GOP stenographers and svengali political consultants to think of themselves as followers instead of leaders. The Democratic Party, sadly, only knows how to lose. Until we get fresh blood into the party that understands how to stand on principle (like the GOP, even if their principles change with the wind) and stand for something, we’re going to see continued defeats like this.

It’s “keep the powder dry” or triangulation or being guided by fear of the media reaction. However you label it, it’s following and not leading. The best solution to this problem is not to abandon the party but to do what has been done, get better Democrats.

OldCoastie @ 22

after watching DiFi do such an excellent job in the DOJ hearings and the watching her vote on FISA, I can only conclude that she is compromised in some way…

it could be business interests but it could be something else… I have no idea, but the word “compromised” sure leaps to the front of my tongue.

I’ve trying to make sense of that contradiction myself – she was so impressive in the hearings. What do you mean by compromised?

I know thank you is not enough. FDL is a source of sanity and brilliance in my life. Christy, Jane, Pach, TRex et al let me know I am not completely crazy, or if I am, I am not alone.

I lurk mostly and once in a while, I comment. Last night I commented a couple of times just because I was feeling so helpless sitting here watching Dems don their kneepads AGAIN. I am no less upset this morning, even though many hours have passed since we lost our security as well as our liberty.

YKos was wonderful, and I wish I had registered early enough. Just knowing how much I have missed online because of my quite old computer, is spurring me on to get a new computer.

Any Suggestions?

I am grieving for my country and am so angry. I just thank my congress person for voting the right way last night. (Otherwise I’d have had to run against her)

EPU’d:
_____

SEC. 202. ADDITIONAL AUTHORITY FOR EMERGENCY ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE.

Section 105 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805) is amended–
(1) by redesignating subsections (g), (h), (i), and (j) as subsections (h), (i), (j), and (k), respectively; and
(2) by inserting after subsection (f) the following new subsection (g):
`(g)(1)(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title and subject to the provisions of this subsection, the Attorney General may, with the concurrence of the Director of National Intelligence, appoint appropriate supervisory or executive personnel within the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency to authorize electronic surveillance on a United States person in the United States on an emergency basis pursuant to the provisions of this subsection.

`(B) For purposes of this subsection, an intelligence agent or employee acting under the supervision of a supervisor or executive appointed under subparagraph (A) may conduct emergency electronic surveillance under this subsection if such supervisor or executive reasonably determines that–
`(i) an emergency situation exists with respect to the employment of electronic surveillance to obtain foreign intelligence information before an order authorizing such surveillance can with due diligence be obtained…

`(B)(i) If the official concerned determines that the electronic surveillance does not meet the requirements of paragraph (1), the surveillance shall terminate immediately and may not be recommenced by any supervisor or executive appointed under paragraph (1), or any agent or employee acting under the supervision of such supervisor or executive, absent additional facts or changes in circumstances that lead a supervisor or executive appointed under paragraph (1) to reasonably believe that the requirements of paragraph (1) are satisfied.

`(ii) In the event of a determination under clause (i), the Attorney General shall not be required, under section 106(j), to notify any United States person of the fact that the electronic surveillance covered by such determination was conducted before the termination of the surveillance under that clause.
_____

TRUST US, WE WILL NEVER ABUSE OUR POWER. ABU GONZALES AND THE DNI WILL OVERSEE EVERYTHING. OVERSIGHT NOT REQUIRED.

“Trouble is only opportunity in work clothes” (Henry Kaiser)

I love it when Christy has ideas!!!

looseheadprop @ 28

Can I say something hopeful? Or maybe it’s just naive…

Presidential candidates came to Yearly Kos.

That’s a BIG BO deal. First it is enough that they come and kiss the ring. Later, if you conitue to grow your power, they take direction form you.

Maybe Tula can give us some history on this, but my daddy wa aTeamster. He used to tell stories about the early days of the labor movement and how in the beinning it was considered a small miracle if apolitician was willing to be seen in the same room with labor leaders.

A generation later, Presidential cnadidates were kissing the rings of union presidents.

In only 2 short years, the blogospere has got major Dem Presidetial candidate coming to kiss the ring.

FDL has got front runners doing guest posts.

That is amazing progress in a very short time.

We have amassed incredible power in very short time. Now we have to learn how to weild it.

Maybe part of the problem is our own growing pains?

Certainly NOT naive. It’s rational and reasonable. I agree with it 100% and was trying to figure a way to say something like this while preoccupied with formatting a document.

Glorfindel @ 15

The blog threads have been alive with outrage over Pelosi and Reid’s slimy enabling of this, in a cloak-and-dagger way that makes them appear ‘clean’ of the stain.

They both like to smile in our faces and give us platitudes, but how many times have these two given us the shiv between the ribs, though admittedly with a double twist of the wrist, of course.

I’m disgusted with both of them.

Something is going on…And this makes no sense..so they amend the law.. Bush will veto the changes..

In a letter to Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers, Jr. and Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence Chairman Silvestre Reyes, Speaker Pelosi requested that the Committees report to the House “as soon as possible after Congress reconvenes,” legislation to amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661

I had a call from the DCCC last sunday and for 20 minutes basically told this guy off…and he kept coming back syaing — we dont have the votes. I talked to my neighbor’s son who works for a dem in congress yesterday — he is mystified at why the way the Dems show strength is to fold when Bush says BOO!

he thinks they are just not smart enough.

I told the DCCC I will send money to the DCCC when the Dems grow larger balls. he said we need more numbers. I told him they need to be tougher and stay in session and keep sending Bush the right stuff not the fold your cards stuff. etc.
For those of us on the list, we need to keep hitting the DCCC in the pocketbook.
I told him Rahm was clueless.

“With each day that passes, the radicalism and extremism originally spawned in secret by the Bush presidency becomes less and less his fault and more and more the fault of those who — having discovered what they have been doing and having been given the power to stop it — instead acquiesce to it and, worse, enable and endorse it.”

Four years ago I knew something had dramatically shifted in me when Pat Buchanan started to look like he was in the middle on issues compared to the radical and corrupt Bush administration.

On Fox this morning, Bill Kristol, Kenneth Pollack and Micheal O’Hanlon cheered the surge on. Trying to convince viewers that things are shifting in Iraq no matter how many Iraqi people are leaving a month (50,000) or are dying a month (1000) due to the unstable situation there.

George Stephanpoulous had the Republican candidates on (wish I had my notes in front of me). Ron Paul was amazing “Just bring them home” was his theme, MCCain still in denial and willing to keep repeating “we are winning”. He almost seems as delusional as Bush and Cheney. Huckabee was impressive , he addressed getting off the oil addiction, and focusing on alternatives not in 30 years but now. Romney seems way out of the loop.

They talked about Yearly Kos on Meet the Press, Fox, not on Hardball. Did not seem to be trying so hard to spin the event as the radical left as much as they had been.

David Brooks referred to many Republicans “hating Bush”. He actually used the term “hate Bush” several times

It was Red state and swing state Senators & Representatives who voted for this monstrosity, with the exception of California’s easily intimidated DiFi and a few others. This is THE problem for the Democratic party- if opposition to Bush and a corrupt Attorney General, or standing up for the Constitution, does not function as a unifying principle for the party, what will?

The choice that the elected representatives of the Democratic party seem to have made is that they would rather have “power” in keeping a majority that more often than not enables the radical Republican policies than loose that majority fighting for principle. But if that is true, then what does the Democratic party stand for?

Renee, thanks for the post of Howards’s speech. I haven’t watched it yet but bet your ass I will. What a great point he makes-think of the despair our forerunners felt in 68 when both King and Kennedy were assasinated. Then Chicago happened, and Tricky Dick ended up winning. Puts it in perspective.

peterboy at 39 — Rahm isn’t running the DCCC any longer. Chris Van Hollen is…

Had lunch the other day after a golf match- the guys were older and talked a little politics. All are goopers. They spoke about KOS- I imagine they had heard about it from Rush or someone- thought it was all foul mouthed commie hippie pinkos..That’s a perception that many will have.

The left needs ORGANIZING organizations- where the fire is passed along- and ACTION organizations which are perceieved as mainstream- the two should fit like hand and glove.

At the moment, though, conservative dems will not be impressed with KOS credentials- and goopers will run away as if chased by the devil.

It’s important, I think, that we all understand how radical these groups are seen as being.

If our US troops are willing to give up their LIVES to fight in Iraq “to make us safe” (as we are told), then the least our senators and representatives could do, despite the presumed blackmailing threats from the WH, is willingly risk their JOBS by voting FOR the People and for the preservation of our constitutional protections.

we need to hold their feet to the fire on amending the law…and NOT renewing it.
And put the heat back up on habeaus corpus.
The Dems need to show some resolve. What would Lincoln do.
If Bush wants to suspend habeaus then he should ask for a Constitutional amendment.
what part of 28% Bush approval rating do the Dems NOT understand?
Dont Pelosi and Hoyer see that Cong’s approval rating is dropping because they are becoming Bush’s second lapdog Congress?
If they had stood up, I would have sent $$$.
Now, Edwards and blue state is the only way to go.

Steve-AR @ 38

Glorfindel @ 15

The blog threads have been alive with outrage over Pelosi and Reid’s slimy enabling of this, in a cloak-and-dagger way that makes them appear ‘clean’ of the stain.

They both like to smile in our faces and give us platitudes, but how many times have these two given us the shiv between the ribs, though admittedly with a double twist of the wrist, of course.

I’m disgusted with both of them.

Something is going on…And this makes no sense..so they amend the law.. Bush will veto the changes..

In a letter to Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers, Jr. and Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence Chairman Silvestre Reyes, Speaker Pelosi requested that the Committees report to the House “as soon as possible after Congress reconvenes,” legislation to amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

http://www.speaker.gov/blog/?p=661

It’s Kabuki. It’s supposed to appease us. Pelosi and Conyers are lying. And what can they actually DO without Reid? Nada.

I’m off to a bbq and my action for today will be to engage people there about this, and see what I can do to stir them up enough to get involved.

Millineryman @ 48

I’m off to a bbq and my action for today will be to engage people there about this, and see what I can do to stir them up enough to get involved.

Go Millineryman! I remember your stories from your July 4th efforts! You rock!

Christy Hardin Smith @ 43

peterboy at 39 — Rahm isn’t running the DCCC any longer. Chris Van Hollen is…

thanks. I thought it was Pat murphy.
missed that morning at FDL.

I still dont feel comfortable sending $$$ to the DCCC–it feels like the borg.
what would you all advise?
I think Blue State…

Good morning y’all. Planning to love blog the blogger brunch here at YKos2. It’s the final session of the conference and the action should be starting shortly. Jane will be one of the panelists. Also Markos, Jessica Valenti, Duncan Black & Liza Sabeter.

Brunch itself is a wonderful meal. Tons of food, even vegan bacon!

grrrr – stilled PO’ed but i’m on the lake to cool myself down…waiting for our star reddhead’s thoughts next post – ;o)

peterboy @ 39

I had a call from the DCCC last sunday and for 20 minutes basically told this guy off…and he kept coming back syaing — we dont have the votes. I talked to my neighbor’s son who works for a dem in congress yesterday — he is mystified at why the way the Dems show strength is to fold when Bush says BOO!

he thinks they are just not smart enough.

I told the DCCC I will send money to the DCCC when the Dems grow larger balls. he said we need more numbers. I told him they need to be tougher and stay in session and keep sending Bush the right stuff not the fold your cards stuff. etc.
For those of us on the list, we need to keep hitting the DCCC in the pocketbook.
I told him Rahm was clueless.

“we don’t have the numbers” is their talking point. it’s being used to get you to give them money so they can win big in 2008 – and then do something about the constituiton.

except if they won’t provide any effective oversight for an R POTUS, i don’t see them doing it for a D POTUS.

if glenn’s analysis (and what lhp is hearing) is true, then they are holding the country hostage to get us to support them in 2008.

which is really, really stupid… ‘cuz all it does is foster resistance.

Can I say something hopeful? Or maybe it’s just naive…

No

Presidential candidates came to Yearly Kos.

That’s a BIG BO deal. First it is enough that they come and kiss the ring. Later, if you conitue to grow your power, they take direction from you.

That is if you consider “taking direction” to be fucking you in the ass without condoms or lube.

I’m sorry but this charade is a disaster.

Don’t you people know what’s going on?

The Geneva Convention has been shredded.

Habeus Corpus is Over.

People all over the world are being rounded up and taken to secret prisons to be tortured and killed.

We used to create Banana Republics in other countries. Now we’ve got one at home.

Are We Having Fun Yet?

RWCole,

The groups are seen as radical because they are portrayed as radical by the beltway beanholes.

I mean how mixed up is the world when KOS is called a hate site and Ann Coulter gets the keynote address at the conservative PAC meeting?

KOS could advocate for apple pie and baseball games and still be smeared as radical. Yet the Michael Savages, Melanie Morgans and Laura Ingrahams are getting bites at the mainstream apple all the time.

The whole system is rotten to the core.

-GSD

P.S.

John McCain looks like he’s done and it is looking more and more like a race between Rude-E, Frederick of Hollywood and Shifty Mitt.

“A new Washington Post/ABC News poll in Iowa finds Mitt Romney leading the Republican presidential race with 26%, followed by Rudy Giuliani at 14%, Fred Thompson at 13%, Mike Huckabee at 8%, and Sen. John McCain also at 8%.”

quote: “we were just stunned at how little coordination there was across the board on any sort of unified strategic vision other than “we’re not Republicans, so vote for us.” And that is simply not enough.”

How would this be stunning to anyone? It’s the same disillusionment that led to the rise of Ralph Nader in 2000. It’s funny how all those ‘moderate’ Democrats who complained about Nader are now saying how pissed they are at the Democrats in exactly the same way.

TexB @ 51

Good morning y’all. Planning to love blog the blogger brunch here at YKos2. It’s the final session of the conference and the action should be starting shortly. Jane will be one of the panelists. Also Markos, Jessica Valenti, Duncan Black & Liza Sabeter.

Brunch itself is a wonderful meal. Tons of food, even vegan bacon!

Have you posted any more pics?

peterboy @ 50

Christy Hardin Smith @ 43

peterboy at 39 — Rahm isn’t running the DCCC any longer. Chris Van Hollen is…

thanks. I thought it was Pat murphy.
missed that morning at FDL.

I still dont feel comfortable sending $$$ to the DCCC–it feels like the borg.
what would you all advise?
I think Blue State…

blue america – howie vets and he’s the best.

The spineless Bushocrats don’t need any K-Y — they like it rough and raw, and that’s just the way they get it.

looking forward to the live blog

Enoch at 55 — It’s stunnng because they had been learning some lessons and, this week, threw them shit out the window. Don’t try twisting my words out of context, thank you very much.

tbsa @ 12

The question I keep returning to is why are they doing it?

Democrats or Republicans, they are the same. Wake up. It is one party rule. Anything that makes it appear there are 2 parties is smoke and mirrors. The same as when some wait until a vote is decided before casting theirs. Time to shovel out the barn. Two term senators max, 4 term reps max. The system has bred corruption to unprecedented levels. Forget the shovel, bring in a bulldozer.

N=1
Thanks for the suggestion of KevinMD. I have posted a couple of comments, and will continue to do so. Dr. Josh is a big fan of Ayn Rand, which shows what an intellectual adolescent he is. If you have other suggestions, let me know.

rwcole @ 44

Had lunch the other day after a golf match- the guys were older and talked a little politics. All are goopers. They spoke about KOS- I imagine they had heard about it from Rush or someone- thought it was all foul mouthed commie hippie pinkos..That’s a perception that many will have.

The left needs ORGANIZING organizations- where the fire is passed along- and ACTION organizations which are perceived as mainstream- the two should fit like hand and glove.

At the moment, though, conservative dems will not be impressed with KOS credentials- and goopers will run away as if chased by the devil.

It’s important, I think, that we all understand how radical these groups are seen as being.

I actually told that after reading what O’Reilly wanted to do with falafel, that I could never take him serious again.

While I don’t use quite the same language as the inimitable David E, gotta say he’s right.

I guess the punchline is the Dem leadership and Blue-Dogs have reduced themselves to K-Y used by Bushco pricks.

Enoch Root @ 55

quote: “we were just stunned at how little coordination there was across the board on any sort of unified strategic vision other than “we’re not Republicans, so vote for us.” And that is simply not enough.”

It’s the same disillusionment that led to the rise of Ralph Nader in 2000.

it’s already happening.

p.s. i’m ignoring your “moderate” slam.

OK. Names are wrong entirely.

On the stage: Matt Stoller, Amanda Marcotte of Pandagon.net, Jeffrey Feldman, Liza Sabater, Markos, Duncan Black.

Props to Kid Oakland. Lots of applause.

Thanks to all the volunteers. Thanks to the sponsors.

People are now asking questions of the bloggers.

No Jane.
:(

Please let me know if you’d like me to continue loveblogging, or if you’d prefer that I just post a summary later on.

~~~ModNote: Edited by request of poster.~~~

Breaking News:

Moisture droplets appear on powder, several Democrats swoon and faint.

-GSD

Boy did Iget EPU’d. I repeat myself from downstairs.

Some advice plz. My city rep, where I currently vote, is Carolyn Maloney. My country rep, Maurice Hinchey, is generally a prince of a man. I call him from time to time & have attended fund raisers that he sponsors for others (he seems reasonably secure in his own job) but I figure concentrate my energies where they are more needed.

So here’s what I’m thinking, and being new to the political process, would appreciate feedback.

Maloney’s votes are generally OK, but she seems nebbishy to me. Her website issues revolve around consumer credit, identity theft, and more local matters.

Would it be worthwhile to attend a meeting during August (assuming she’s having one), introduce myself, and advance the idea that since she’s on the right side, could she take a more active role in encouraging other Ds (Blue Dog, or whoever else skates too close to the line) to come over to the right side.

Several years agoI made a New Years resolution to stop getting involved in lost causes (broke it on Jan 3). If Maloney really is a nebbish, I’d be wasting my breath, and I would have no ability to know whether she acts on my urging. She’s in her 8th term, is probably a lock to stay there until death-do-us-part. So she’d have no problem coasting.

tbsa @ 12

The question I keep returning to is why are they doing it?

I just read on Words of Power today wrt the possible threats that we may not know about. He transcripts an interview with David Bender (of Ring of Fire) and Scott Horton (of Harper’s) wrt the theatrical/political trial and conviction of Gov. Siegelman of Alabama.

This administration and its leaders are certainly criminal and cunning. And I believe we (USA) are its victims.

Hard Rain Journal 8-5-07: Lessons from Soviet-Style Show Trail of Don Siegelman — Learned or Unlearned?
Words of Power

Hats off to Howie Klein and the rest of the Blue America crew for making such careful and important choices for the 2006 Blue America candidates. The best place for the amount of dollars porgressive bloggers and activists to put their 2008 money is in the US House races.

rwcole @ 44

Had lunch the other day after a golf match- the guys were older and talked a little politics. All are goopers. They spoke about KOS- I imagine they had heard about it from Rush or someone- thought it was all foul mouthed commie hippie pinkos..That’s a perception that many will have.

The left needs ORGANIZING organizations- where the fire is passed along- and ACTION organizations which are perceieved as mainstream- the two should fit like hand and glove.

At the moment, though, conservative dems will not be impressed with KOS credentials- and goopers will run away as if chased by the devil.

It’s important, I think, that we all understand how radical these groups are seen as being.

Communities, societies, cultures, corporations – wherever there are gatherings and meetings of two or more people, there are organizations. and they all have evolutionary and developmental shared characteristics:

People interact with one another – may be by chance or purposefully

People increasingly share information about commonalities

People form means of more formalized, systematic, and dependable communications

People identify themselves as group members

People articulate mission, vision and values

People identify need to acquire means to live the mission and values.

People form the structures to support meeting identified organizational goals

People acquire the resources to move toward the goal

(Sorry – I’m a project manager used to herding cats, chickens and people in competing departments *g*)

I think that the progressive blogosphere is somewhere in the identifying themselves as group members and articulating a mission, vision and values stages of the evolution. So the next steps are in formalizing some mechanism of group identification and in reaching consensus on a shared mission, vision and values. Then, the groundwork can commence rather quickly to identify and acquire needed resources to move toward the goals (agenda).

One way to do that might be to create a meta progressive blog – the sole purpose being to function as the nexus for all of the progressive blogosphere – links, references, meeting information, resource information. Essentially, it would serve as the blogosphere’s central library and signboard to point people to where the actual conversations, news, analysis and work are being done and posted.

It would also require a coordinator for the blogosphere – not a controller or director, but a real person who monitor and manages blogosphere traffic and gets the right people to the right places at the right time on the right topic (I did a lot of work on managing complex hospital systems to function around patients instead of patients being acted on by large systems).

That requires funding and sponsors.

During the very time Congress was debating codifying President Bush’s lawbreaking by revising FISA, Alberto Gonzales’ DOJ was raiding the home of a former Justice official to identify the person who first brought the illicit program to light.

For the disturbing details of selective retribution by the White House, see:
“Payback Time: FBI Raids Home of Suspected NSA Leaker.”

OK, the people “questioning” the panel are actually just commenting about how much they’ve enjoyed the convention.

BTW, 90% of people this morning are wearing t-shirts and jeans. None are dirty. All seem to have bathed recently.

Siun @ 64

While I don’t use quite the same language as the inimitable David E, gotta say he’s right.

siun, i was hoping to see you in the comments.

you have any suggestions? last few days have been an eye-opener for me – although it’s been building for months now, the fisa capitulation and kabuki has me beyond pissed.

* and just so no one misinterprets me – i’m not talking about giving up. i’m talking about a change in tactics.

Glorfindel @ 66

I guess the punchline is the Dem leadership and Blue-Dogs have reduced themselves to K-Y used by Bushco pricks.

Hmmm, slimy, invertebrate and used to screw “we the people”?

4 people commented so far. Not one of them has actually asked a question of the panelists. Panelists just sitting on stage listening, but they don’t get to have coffee and danish in front of them.

BobbyG @ 35

EPU’d:
_____

SEC. 202. ADDITIONAL AUTHORITY FOR EMERGENCY ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE.

Section 105 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805) is amended–
(1) by redesignating subsections (g), (h), (i), and (j) as subsections (h), (i), (j), and (k), respectively; and
(2) by inserting after subsection (f) the following new subsection (g):
`(g)(1)(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title and subject to the provisions of this subsection, the Attorney General may, with the concurrence of the Director of National Intelligence, appoint appropriate supervisory or executive personnel within the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency to authorize electronic surveillance on a United States person in the United States on an emergency basis pursuant to the provisions of this subsection.

`(B) For purposes of this subsection, an intelligence agent or employee acting under the supervision of a supervisor or executive appointed under subparagraph (A) may conduct emergency electronic surveillance under this subsection if such supervisor or executive reasonably determines that–
`(i) an emergency situation exists with respect to the employment of electronic surveillance to obtain foreign intelligence information before an order authorizing such surveillance can with due diligence be obtained…

`(B)(i) If the official concerned determines that the electronic surveillance does not meet the requirements of paragraph (1), the surveillance shall terminate immediately and may not be recommenced by any supervisor or executive appointed under paragraph (1), or any agent or employee acting under the supervision of such supervisor or executive, absent additional facts or changes in circumstances that lead a supervisor or executive appointed under paragraph (1) to reasonably believe that the requirements of paragraph (1) are satisfied.

`(ii) In the event of a determination under clause (i), the Attorney General shall not be required, under section 106(j), to notify any United States person of the fact that the electronic surveillance covered by such determination was conducted before the termination of the surveillance under that clause.
_____

TRUST US, WE WILL NEVER ABUSE OUR POWER. ABU GONZALES AND THE DNI WILL OVERSEE EVERYTHING. OVERSIGHT NOT REQUIRED.

What crap. Use of the word “reasonably” in this legislation is a mere smokescreen to fool the MSM and the American people. There is no real standard of reasonableness here, because there exists no mechanism for judicial review of AG, DNI or subordinates’ behavior.

masaccio @ 62

N=1
Thanks for the suggestion of KevinMD. I have posted a couple of comments, and will continue to do so. Dr. Josh is a big fan of Ayn Rand, which shows what an intellectual adolescent he is. If you have other suggestions, let me know.

Thanks, Masaccio! Did you see your comment crossposted on my blog? Thanks so much for allowing me to do that, and come on over and post there, too. I have a whole rabid wingnut cadre that lurks – it’s probably the only reading they ever do about health policy, and so they may think they go away right, but I’m working my hardest to make sure they take away some facts, whether they like it or not! *g*

Ed*ard Teller @ 72

Hats off to Howie Klein and the rest of the Blue America crew for making such careful and important choices for the 2006 Blue America candidates. The best place for the amount of dollars porgressive bloggers and activists to put their 2008 money is in the US House races.

I agree and as Howie pointed out, early money for the progressive candidates is critical.

Merci , Siun @ #65

I’m heart-attack-serious about this folks.

I’m 60 years-old. I’ve lived through Eisenhower, JFK, Lyndon Johnson, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton and Dubbya.

I survived WWIII (aka. the “Cuban Missle Crisis”), avoided Vietnam because I’m a Big Ol’ Gay Homosexual, and somehow have managed to remain HIV-negative all these years as 3/4’s of my nearest and dearest died horrible ignominious amist the COMPLETE INDIFFERENCE of “The American People.”

So you can understand why I’m a tad “cynical” about the current situation.

We are living in a defacto military dictatorship and there’s no two ways about it.

Don’t try putting lipstick on this pig, Jane and Christy.

You know it’s a pig.

And so does the pig.

And what does a Banana Republic like our need the most?

Why a National Anthm, of course!

There’s a fruit store on our street,
It’s run by a Greek.
And he keeps good things to eat
But you should hear him speak.
When you ask him anything
He never answers “No.”
He just “Yesses” you to death,
And as he takes your dough,
He tells you:
“YES! We have no bananas,
We have no bananas today.
We’ve string beans and HON-ions,
Cab-BAH-ges and scallions
And all kinds of fruit, and say
We have an old fashioned to-MAH-to,
Long Island po-TAH-to,
But YES! We have no bananas.
We have no bananas today.”
Business got so good with him
He wrote home to say:
“Send me Pete and Nick and Jim,
I need help right away.”
When he got them in the store,
There was fun, you bet!
Someone asked for “Sparrow grass,”
And the whole quartet
All answered: YES! We have no bananas,
We have no bananas today.
We’ve string beans and HON-ions,
Cab-BAH-ges and scallions
And all kinds of fruit, and say
We have an old fashioned to-MAH-to,
Long Island po-TAH-to,
But YES! We have no bananas.
We have no bananas today!”

TexB @ 67

On the stage: Matt Stoller, Amanda Marcotte of Pandagon.net, Jeffrey Feldman, Liza Sabater, Markos, Duncan Hunter.

We’re sure you mean Duncan Black there, TexB…

OldCoastie @ 22

after watching DiFi do such an excellent job in the DOJ hearings and the watching her vote on FISA, I can only conclude that she is compromised in some way…

it could be business interests but it could be something else… I have no idea, but the word “compromised” sure leaps to the front of my tongue.

Can you say “war profiteer?”
I didn’t vote for her in November, and I will vote for whatever dem is running against her until she is gone. She is a liarman type democrat.

GSD@55 did you get to see/hear Juan Cole?

Anyone attending the conference get to hear what John Mearsheimer had to say about the state of things?

We have yet to hear any question about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict at any of the debates Republican or Democrats. Still the elephant in the room.

newtonusr @ 82

TexB @ 67

On the stage: Matt Stoller, Amanda Marcotte of Pandagon.net, Jeffrey Feldman, Liza Sabater, Markos, Duncan Hunter.

We’re sure you mean Duncan Black there, TexB…

LOL !!!! Mods, any chance y’all can fix my stupidity???

Selise … way overtired here (and missing my appearance on Fini’s show due to a sick child)
but the last few days at YKOS left me very disheartened and I’m trying to sort out how to write about it without much luck (sleep might help). What I see are the “netroots” adopting the DLC/neocon framing on foreign policy.

still processing but I will say the candidate event left me fuming …

TexB @ 78

4 people commented so far. Not one of them has actually asked a question of the panelists. Panelists just sitting on stage listening, but they don’t get to have coffee and danish in front of them.

Hey TexB. Notice no one answered you. I will, then. Appreciating your l-blog ;->

David at 80 — You want to roll over and just hand things over to Bush and his ilk? That’s your choice. I choose to fight the battles that I can and try and win them. That’s my choice. I’ll be damned if I’m ceding ground to the asshats — it took MLK and the civil rights movement more than thirteen years to make any headway. We cannot simply roll over in the face of adversity — and I refuse to do so because things look bleak in the moment.

That is cowardly, and my spine is far too stiff and I am far to pissed to let them win the whole of the war over one battle. No fucking way.

Two thoughts on this. First, the polls have moved strongly towards opposition to the Iraq occupation. But I haven’t seen the same kind of opposition in the polls to the warrantless eavesdropping. Until this happens it will be hard to get the support from Congress on this. Second, maybe we should fight fire with fire. The Republicans have successfully threatened them into backing down, and they may think there is not much of a price to pay for doing so. We can’ t punish all 41 detectors in the House, but we could make an example out of one or two of them, by withdrawing support and putting forward a strong primary challenger. I think the issues here justify playing hardball it that’s what it takes.

David Ehrenstein @ 80 –

not disagreeing with you… just trying to figure out what to do about it. hoping to brainstorm a bit.

i do confess it is much worse than i thought (i’m used to saying that about the Rs, guess it’s time for me to get used to it wrt the Ds too).

TexB @ 77

4 people commented so far. Not one of them has actually asked a question of the panelists. Panelists just sitting on stage listening, but they don’t get to have coffee and danish in front of them.

TexB did anyone bring up U.S. foreign policy in regard to the I/P conflict during the conference?

Sounds like Hillary took a hit. Looking for a link to watch that part of the conference anyone know where I can watch it?

Siun @ 87

Selise … way overtired here (and missing my appearance on Fini’s show due to a sick child)
but the last few days at YKOS left me very disheartened and I’m trying to sort out how to write about it without much luck (sleep might help). What I see are the “netroots” adopting the DLC/neocon framing on foreign policy.

still processing but I will say the candidate event left me fuming …

Shit!!! I was down about it too but couldn’t put my finger on it. Get some sleep (and space). I can’t wait to read your thoughts.

Siun @ 86

Selise … way overtired here (and missing my appearance on Fini’s show due to a sick child)
but the last few days at YKOS left me very disheartened and I’m trying to sort out how to write about it without much luck (sleep might help). What I see are the “netroots” adopting the DLC/neocon framing on foreign policy.

still processing but I will say the candidate event left me fuming …

Surprised that you expected anything else

If we’re going to excuse the leadership and the Yellow Blue Dogs of complicity, we need some honesty from them on one question.

What is Bush holding over their heads?

What, exactly, is he saying will happen — or worse, let happen?

I don’t suppose that a numbskull like Heath Shuler read the bill: he probably thinks FISA is the company that makes V*ag*ra. But he and the other Lap Dogs were allowed to vote this unconstitutional piece of shit into law.

~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~

“You want to roll over and just hand things over to Bush and his ilk?”

What on earth makes you think I want to do that, Christy?

But please explain to me why I should viote for More of The Same — which is what we’re going to get from Every Single Democrat (with the possible exception of Elizabeth Edwards)

You know what “working within the system” gets you?

George Stephanopolis that’s what.

You’re talking to an unreconstructed leftist here.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 87

David at 80 — You want to roll over and just hand things over to Bush and his ilk? That’s your choice. I choose to fight the battles that I can and try and win them. That’s my choice. I’ll be damned if I’m ceding ground to the asshats — it took MLK and the civil rights movement more than thirteen years to make any headway. We cannot simply roll over in the face of adversity — and I refuse to do so because things look bleak in the moment.

That is cowardly, and my spine is far too stiff and I am far to pissed to let them win the whole of the war over one battle. No fucking way.

I am with you. Just wish I had more time lately. Covered up changing my parents’ diapers lately, LOL! Got em both out here in Vegas now. Just like havin’ kids again.

David at 93 — Where, in any of my posts this morning, did I say to vote for more of the same?

Hey David E.!

Don’t try putting lipstick on this pig, Jane and Christy.

Yeah YOU at #82 hotshot.

And just where were YOU?

Don’t go smearing wildly if your own head was under a pillow during the action.

O.K.A.Y?!

Christy Hardin Smith @ 89

David at 80 — You want to roll over and just hand things over to Bush and his ilk? That’s your choice. I choose to fight the battles that I can and try and win them. That’s my choice. I’ll be damned if I’m ceding ground to the asshats — it took MLK and the civil rights movement more than thirteen years to make any headway. We cannot simply roll over in the face of adversity — and I refuse to do so because things look bleak in the moment.

That is cowardly, and my spine is far too stiff and I am far to pissed to let them win the whole of the war over one battle. No fucking way.

How would we look our children in the eye if we didn’t fight like hell?

The Seattle Times reports today that about 70% of the new jobs created in Washington state from 2002 to 2006, will keep you in poverty.

Siun @ 85

Selise … way overtired here (and missing my appearance on Fini’s show due to a sick child)
but the last few days at YKOS left me very disheartened and I’m trying to sort out how to write about it without much luck (sleep might help). What I see are the “netroots” adopting the DLC/neocon framing on foreign policy.

still processing but I will say the candidate event left me fuming …

thanks for the reply, siun – hope your little one is well soon. will look for you to say more later. what you do say distresses me – but does not surprise me.

Most political movements are killed dead in their tracks because they are unable to grow beyond the original pissed off contingent. They can’t bend the message, the approach, the culture, to include a larger audience- in fact many don’t WANT the larger audience cause that would spoil the exclusivity of the thing..

The goal of any successful political movement is to roll up a snowball of votes, cash, and power and then GROW it every day until politicians CANNOT ignore it.

In short- to succeed- we’ve gotta go mainstream- OK?

So get clean fer Gene!!

Anybody know why Boxer didn’t vote on FISA? Was she defering to DiFi/saving face or did she have a legitimate reason for missing the vote Friday.

For the record, I have yet to see either Jane or Christy put lipstick on any pigs … but I sure have seen a lot of other folks lookin’ for the lipgloss.

Adie at 96 — David E. is a longtime reader and activist. Please back the rhetoric down a few notches — he and I are having a philosophical disagreement on tactics — and that is not an invitation to jump on the bashing bandwagon, capice?

I know everyone’s tempers are running hot today — mine included — but let’s not take it out on each other where we can help it. Thanks.

“it took MLK and the civil rights movement more than thirteen years to make any headway.

Does the name Bayard Rustin ring a bell?

Christy Hardin Smith @ 87

David at 80 — You want to roll over and just hand things over to Bush and his ilk? That’s your choice. I choose to fight the battles that I can and try and win them. That’s my choice. I’ll be damned if I’m ceding ground to the asshats — it took MLK and the civil rights movement more than thirteen years to make any headway. We cannot simply roll over in the face of adversity — and I refuse to do so because things look bleak in the moment.

That is cowardly, and my spine is far too stiff and I am far to pissed to let them win the whole of the war over one battle. No fucking way.

maybe i’m completely wrong here… but i didn’t read david to say he was giving up or that anyone else should. i think he was just trying to acurately identify the problem… which is the first step to knowing what to do?

Ed*ard Teller @ 101

The Seattle Times reports today that about 70% of the new jobs created in Washington state from 2002 to 2006, will keep you in poverty.

Two Americas. Vote Edwards.

Adie @ 96

Hey David E.!

Don’t try putting lipstick on this pig, Jane and Christy.

Yeah YOU at #82 hotshot.

And just where were YOU?

Don’t go smearing wildly if your own head was under a pillow during the action.

O.K.A.Y?!

This is the same cat who once posted that our young soldiers sent to Iraq deserved their blown-off limbs, etc.

David E at 95.

More of The Same — which is what we’re going to get from Every Single Democrat (with the possible exception of Elizabeth Edwards)

!NOT.TRUE!

If you must paint yourself a corner, please use smaller brush, thanking you in advance.

BobbyG at 94 — Hugs to you, man. We went through that with my granny, and it is such a tough time for everyone. It’s good that they are there with you now, though, instead of you having to travel back and forth so much.

People are really pissed today – and rightly so. Rather than ending the session with a celebration of what was done, they pull this late Saturday night mess which ends up tearing up the Constitution even further. They were out-played and out-smarted by the Rethugs. And they readily agreed to it, plus trying to put on a dog and pony show of not doing it. Timing was critical. And even that they blew.

And yes, I still want the Dems to put into the Congressional Record an official reprimand of Boner for revealing state secrets on public television, damaging state security.

rwcole @ 103

In short- to succeed- we’ve gotta go mainstream- OK?

I’m going to repose an EPU’d question I put up on the last thread.. but which I think may be more germane for discussion on this one:

I do have one question… what does it mean precisely to be a member of the DLC? My critter seems to have an almost straight progressive voting record (100% on environment, 90% ACLU pro-civil rights, 100% pro-environment, 100% pro-peace according to SANE, 87% pro-union, 0% FAIR rating on immigration, even rated “anti-business” by the US COC for what it’s worth) but is still nominally a DLC member, which she’s been since first running for ofice.. similarly, there are many Dems with pretty conservative voting records who are not DLC members.

So if Blue Dog membership has nothing to do with how one votes or the positions one takes, then what is the significance of it? I know what the leadership rhetoric says, but I bet if you ran a statistical test on the actual voting records, you’d get pretty mixed results. I’m confused.

rwcole – voting for Habeas, voting against the Military Commissions, refusing to pass this bs amenment on FISA and refusing to vote more money for the occupation are mainstream … that’s the problem.

I’m as disappointed and unhappy as anyone with this sellout by the Democrats, especially my own Senator, Amy Klobuchar. But there are two good reasons not to give in to total despair. First, Bush may veto this legislation. And it is only good for six months in any event. Either way, there will be another chance to hammer the jellyfish with some information about what they gave away here.

Second, the fact Bush is trying to get this passed at all means he has capitulated on his “unitary executive theory”. By adopting this flawed bill, Congress has now ensnared Bush in a process which he cannot back out on. Congressional investigation into the Gonzalez handling of the approval of the surveillance program from Ashcroft in 2004 becomes highly relevant to this. Unitary executive and executive privilege cannot be invoked to stop legitimate Congressional investigations in an area where they are considering legislation.

Of course, that still assumes these people in Congress have any spine or principles. We’re still waiting for the evidence of that.

After that vote, I understand fully why there will never be an impeachment.

Blub @ 103

Anybody know why Boxer didn’t vote on FISA? Was she defering to DiFi/saving face or did she have a legitimate reason for missing the vote Friday.

She and Kerry were out windsurfing. All they needed was one more vote. (They together made sure it wouldn’t come from them). Fix was on.

Christy, thanks for posting the Pink video. I’d never seen it, even though I have that cd. Love the song and the attitude!

We all need some inspiration after the debacle yesterday.

Morning gang.
I watched Punkin Haid with my Dad, told him to watch out for pricks wearing yellow ties.
I cracked up when the light came on.

Siun “What I see are the “netroots” adopting the DLC/neocon framing on foreign policy.”

The netroots had all ready been willing to accept the DLC/neocon framing on foreign policy. When the netroots and the MSM are unwilling to honestly tackle one of the main sources for conflict and hatred in the middle east (the I/P conflict) no one, no one should be surprised.

I would have been in shock if it had come out any other way.

All you folks who were able to attend Yearly Kos get some sleep. Although enjoy hearing about peoples perspective when they are in the thick of it and later when they have had time to reflect.

Siun

Well I agree that they OUGHT to be- but for example- cutting off funding for the war is NOT mainstream- a significant majority of americans oppose it.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 109

BobbyG at 94 — Hugs to you, man. We went through that with my granny, and it is such a tough time for everyone. It’s good that they are there with you now, though, instead of you having to travel back and forth so much.

Thanks, Christy. Igotta laugh. They lost my Mother’s dentures down in the hospital in Florida a couple of months ago. So, the other day, I’m spoon-feeding her some apple sauce (she’s still bed-ridden), and thinking ‘y’know, 60 years ago it was exactly the other way around, no teeth, eating apple sauce off a spoon…’

Richmond @ 113

And yes, I still want the Dems to put into the Congressional Record an official reprimand of Boner for revealing state secrets on public television, damaging state security.

…and also Tancredo for calling on the preemptive nuking of Mecca and Medina, again, last week.. if people like these are allowed to hold elective office, we’re in really serious trouble. These people complain we lack civility for trying to hold them to account, and then openly advocate treason, national insecurity, racism and, in Tancredo’s case, outright genocide. It’s unbelievable and intolerable that we won’t do anything about them.

i can understand david e’s feeling – i am also angry – and looking for something concrete to do – the dems for some reason keep giving bushco all that he wants….daring the dems to try and stand up to him – they dont!! its frustrating to say the least

“he and I are having a philosophical disagreement on tactics”

We are indeed Christy.

You and Jane and all the Kossivites are deeply serious, hard-working, well-meaning people. But you can’t fix a system when it’s so tightly rigged — and I’m not talking about Diebold or the Electoral college.

Over the past few months few spectackles have upset me more than Barack Obama — who is still treated by a great many people as if he were some sort of god. He’s not. He’s Sharpe James in Corrie Booker’s clothing.

We need a drastic retinking of the entire political process if we’re going to keep ourselves out of GitMo.

And I’m not exaggerating.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 89

David at 80 — You want to roll over and just hand things over to Bush and his ilk? That’s your choice. I choose to fight the battles that I can and try and win them. That’s my choice. I’ll be damned if I’m ceding ground to the asshats — it took MLK and the civil rights movement more than thirteen years to make any headway. We cannot simply roll over in the face of adversity — and I refuse to do so because things look bleak in the moment.

That is cowardly, and my spine is far too stiff and I am far to pissed to let them win the whole of the war over one battle. No fucking way.

The democratic party has been taken over from within. I was wrong about a current one party system, it sometimes appears that way. But the true Democrats (or true republicans) do not have a majority in either the senate or house. Maybe we have a 4 party system. Democrats, republicans, wolves, and sheep. The majority party is obvious.

Like David E., as a gay man living through the rise and explosion of the AIDS crisis, I too saw the people I love most die horribly, as America yawned. It was numbing, and isolating. America seemed like a place we lived in covertly, not as full, respected citizens.

The Republicans then proceeded to use us as their favorite whipping group, as America clapped.

I’ve witnessed the HRC compromised and co-opted, along with NARAL and other opposition groups, to the establishment’s status quo.

Submission and acceptance is not an option, I agree, but many of us have been walking down a long road of despair, with very few spots of illumination. Weariness and disgust seem like old demons, constantly at the door.

Thank God for the netroots and progressive blogs. It is the opening of an illuminated road.

David Ehrenstein @ 104

“it took MLK and the civil rights movement more than thirteen years to make any headway.

Does the name Bayard Rustin ring a bell?

google is my friend. he sounds like an amazing person – i had no idea of his role in convincing mlk to take up nonviolent direction action.

please tell us more.

Richmond @ 118

She and Kerry were out windsurfing. All they needed was one more vote. (They together made sure it wouldn’t come from them). Fix was on.

welp.. I guess I’m not going to vote either.. for Boxer (OK, purely symbolic gesture there.. I think she holds the electoral equivalent of a life appointment, along with DiFi).. ’tis a shame.. of the two of them, she was my favorite (over DiFi).

anybody have a link to the votes in house and senate…..I thought the senate vote was way lopsided not close enough so kerry or boxer would matter. I remember about 28 Dems standing firm in Senate.
richmond at 115

What crap. Use of the word “reasonably” in this legislation is a mere smokescreen to fool the MSM and the American people. There is no real standard of reasonableness here, because there exists no mechanism for judicial review of AG, DNI or subordinates’ behavior.

“Reasonable” is a legal term. It is front and center in almost all areas of Tort law. It is by the standard of the ‘reasonable person’ that actions of individuals are judged. This, of course, is from the arena of civil law. What an official “reasonably determines” to be necessary spying is not so much a smokescreen as it is a legal nullity, much as was Bush’s ‘illegal enemy combatants’.

It is vague, it proposes an insertion of the standard of “reasonableness” into criminal law where it has never existed before, and is evidence, once again, that the Bush admin is just making shit up as they go. It would most likely be found to be unconstitutional if it were not for the fact that the courts have refused to grant standing to anyone seeking to challenge these types of thing.

And that doesn’t even address the question of whether or not Alberto Gonzalez could ever be determined to be, by any court in the land, a ‘reasonable person’.

So many lawyers in Congress, so few decent minds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-…..932211.stm
The Afghan president goes to the US for talks, as the Taleban continue to hold 21 South Korean hostages.

start_beating_around_the_bush @ 62

tbsa @ 12

The question I keep returning to is why are they doing it?

Democrats or Republicans, they are the same. Wake up. It is one party rule. Anything that makes it appear there are 2 parties is smoke and mirrors. The same as when some wait until a vote is decided before casting theirs. Time to shovel out the barn. Two term senators max, 4 term reps max. The system has bred corruption to unprecedented levels. Forget the shovel, bring in a bulldozer.

As my grandfather used to always say “The Democrats will throw you a few crumbs, but the Republicans will steal the crumbs right out of your pocket”..

The crumbs are the difference.

Blub @ 124

Richmond @ 113

And yes, I still want the Dems to put into the Congressional Record an official reprimand of Boner for revealing state secrets on public television, damaging state security.

…and also Tancredo for calling on the preemptive nuking of Mecca and Medina, again, last week.. if people like these are allowed to hold elective office, we’re in really serious trouble. These people complain we lack civility for trying to hold them to account, and then openly advocate treason, national insecurity, racism and, in Tancredo’s case, outright genocide. It’s unbelievable and intolerable that we won’t do anything about them.

Yes. Where is the sense of decency and respect for this country, our history and our laws! I just don’t get it. Where is the their moral fiber?

peterboy @ 131

anybody have a link to the votes in house and senate…..I thought the senate vote was way lopsided not close enough so kerry or boxer would matter. I remember about 28 Dems standing firm in Senate.
richmond at 115

for House, posted in the last thread, but here again just in case
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll836.xml

Please don’t forget to write your reps, to thank them if they voted NAY and to hex them if they voted YEA.

For San Diego local, Filner-N, Davis-N, Bilbray-Y, Issa-Y, Hunter-Abstain

Anyone suppose they needed that NSA wiretapping legalized in a hurry in order to nail the NSA leaker? Was just noticing the language in comment #35.

The more that I think about it, the FISA “thing” looks more and more like a Rove political op against the Dems. The law change is meaningless. The fascists don’t give a shit about the law and they have been wiretapping and data mining for years. The last minute..you have to do it..Dems soft on terrorism, has Rove written all over it. And reading posts over the past 24 hours, it’s working. Divide the Dems and win again in ‘08. We are going to be seeing a lot more of this crap.

Folks, I hate to post and run, but I just got an e-mail telling me that the lines are enormous at the airport this morning due to some weather delays and such. So I’m going to have to hightail it out a bit earlier than I expected. I’m getting home to Mr. ReddHedd and The Peanut tonight, come hell or high water…

While frustrated with this idiotic vote in both houses, I had a good laugh this morning when an obviously worried Nancy Pelosi fired off a letter to John Conyers Jr. stating that the American people may not be happy with the outcome of the vote and that some serious modifications must be made to the FISA bill. What is this woman smoking? She had the opportunity to kill this until September, but let it fly anyway. Maybe she really is worried about a Cindy Shehan run for her seat.
Look, there are things that can be done to slow down and eventually kill off the constitutional rot in the house of the people. First, get your hands on the list of those Democrats that voted for this outrageous legislation. Call as well as write them. A little known fact is that for each response a representative gets counts as an equal opinion from 13,000 other voters in the same district. While your at it, write those Democratic senators that abandoned the constitution as well. If these fools think the American electorate are sleeping soundly on this issue, continue to push it in their faces just as we got rid of Mr. Maccaca.
Secondly, make other Americans aware of what has happened. Talk to your friends, relatives and anyone who will listen. Third, forget the magnetic yellow ribbons, and start making a statement. Not one penny more for any politician from either party when they ask for your financial help if they continue throwing the US Constitution under the bus.
Even the smallest of efforts in giving this story increasing air time will alert others as to what has been and is going on. There is plenty of free sharware that will allow you make up everything from bumber stickers to t-shirts. Let everyone know that our Constitutional rights do matter and if you haven’t seen the movie V, then I seriously suggest you do. Never forget that together We The People have strength in numbers and those in Washington work for us, not the other way around.
At least it’s a start in letting the CFR, The Tri Lateral Commission and others in the NWO that this is our country and that we all stand to gain from her. But when you begin to destroy the very framework and fabric that has set us head and shoulders apart of other countries in our world, we head down a very slippery slope towards facisim. Just keep in mind that quaint saying from the movie Network. I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore! Place placards or stickers on every windshield in every parking lot across America, on every tree on every car, truck and bus, but whatever you do don’t give into apathy. This is our time now as a people to put an end to political tyranny in America.

The March on Washington was bayard Rustin’s idea, Selise. But he was not allowed to take credit for it because of vice arrests (ie. he “fell in love with a cop”) and Hoover was after MLKs ass to start with.

Civil Rights Laws, BTW were signed by Lyndon Johnson.

JFK was no more in favor of Civil Rights than Hillary Clinton is interested in leaving Iraq.

Darn, Siun, I was listening to Joh to hear you and Barry Welsh… you gonna try again next week?

Gore!

Christy Hardin Smith @ 106

Adie at 96 — David E. is a longtime reader and activist. Please back the rhetoric down a few notches — he and I are having a philosophical disagreement on tactics — and that is not an invitation to jump on the bashing bandwagon, capice?

Christy, you rock! “A philosophical agreement on tactics” is what we’ve been having here this whole weekend and it’s good. Thanks for all you do.

Love you too Adie!

Have a safe trip, Christy!

Happy Trails Christy.

It is really bothering me that so many people are slamming the entire democratic party for this. This quitting the party 3rd party candidates crap is just that – crap. Let’s look at the House vote – disregarding what fault you might find with leadership or party unity – there are 233 Dems – 41 voted with Rethugs.

Do the math. Thats 192 who are on the right page. 5 out of 6.

Is this a debacle? No argument. Do we have to organize and throw out these capitulators and blue dog dems? Damn f*cking right.

But all this sitting around gnashing teeth and feeling sorry doesn’t cut it. Go back to Renee from Ohio’s post @18, and read what the good Doctor from Vermont has to say. We’ve got to get back up, brush ourselves off, and hit it again.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 105

Adie at 96 [?] — David E. is a longtime reader and activist. Please back the rhetoric down a few notches — he and I are having a philosophical disagreement on tactics — and that is not an invitation to jump on the bashing bandwagon, capice?

I know everyone’s tempers are running hot today — mine included — but let’s not take it out on each other where we can help it. Thanks.

yeah. capice, indeed. in deference to your feelings & recognition of your mutual desire to mix it up, I shall bow out & let you handle your own way.

Still. When comments are way outta line,as his were imo, they’re definitely not helpful at this time in a public forum. Glad you can “file” them properly to suit yourself. Hope {{{Jane}}} can also.
If you sensed bandwagon, it was an illusion of your own manufacture. I am aware of dangers of such, & do try to avoid…
carry on with your [discussion], unencumbered by extraneous comments from this corner…

Christy Hardin Smith @ 136

Folks, I hate to post and run, but I just got an e-mail telling me that the lines are enormous at the airport this morning due to some weather delays and such. So I’m going to have to hightail it out a bit earlier than I expected. I’m getting home to Mr. ReddHedd and The Peanut tonight, come hell or high water…

hoping a safe trip and lots of sleep for you.

Whoa:

Everyone take a step back, have a sip – or three – of your beverage of choice and take a moment to gather your thoughts and composure.

Ever heard of the term, horizontal violence? It’s what people do when they are in an oppressed group and can’t direclty fight back – so they turn on one another because it’s a relatively safe thing to do.

I see that happening today around the prog. blogosphere. Please recognize that we’re all on the same team here, and that we should be cutting a lot of slack for people to vent and test the waters for their own feelings and emotions.

Let’s shotgun hugs and compassion instead of ammo. Please – for all or sakes.

And then – take a nap, and get ready for the next steps.

Yikes – just reviewed my comments, and they sound as if I’m lecturing – so sorry -please filter to make them acceptable.

selise @ 102

Siun @ 85

Selise … way overtired here (and missing my appearance on Fini’s show due to a sick child)
but the last few days at YKOS left me very disheartened and I’m trying to sort out how to write about it without much luck (sleep might help). What I see are the “netroots” adopting the DLC/neocon framing on foreign policy.

still processing but I will say the candidate event left me fuming …

thanks for the reply, siun – hope your little one is well soon. will look for you to say more later. what you do say distresses me – but does not surprise me.

If I may,could I make a suggestion?

Politics is important,obviously we all believe that or we wouldn’t be here online every day trying to learn and figure out how to change things for the better. I think we need more stretching,let me explain…

I just finished reading Michael Pollan’s The Omnivore’s Dilemma. I have a very passionate belief that local food based economies are one answer to poverty,and to repairing broken communitiy connections. I must own 20 books on this topic alone. Food and politics don’t seem like they go together,but they do. That’s not what I want to get into now though.

One huge thing that hit me in this book was the middle part,about small farmers and local agriculture. Pollan’s point was that these people,in areas where these small farms are thriving,are going over,under and around the system to effect change. It’s working. Would this work for every issue? Maybe,if enough creativity is applied and enough people are willing to stretch a little and do the work. Even if it seems odd or like you’re breaking the rules.

So,while we read blogs,blog ourselves,call the congresscritters du jour,organize protests and rallies,those things are just ONE phase of many that need to be worked on.

We have to create real life communities. There is simply no other way to get things done on a real life,real world level. Some of us have that and may not even realize what a gift it is. Others of us are struggling and feel left out and disconnected,or that we simply don’t fit in(I am in a red county in a redder state and it’s a hostile world in these parts).

It’s really imperative that we create real life community,there is no other way. Those real life connections help us keep going when we feel like giving up,when we feel lost. That can give us strength to go on,give us something to fight for,rather than always fighting against something(which is the more exhausting of the two,imo).

OK,off my soapbox. Hit me with a Facebook message if you want to discuss this in more depth. Or, my email is gardenspirit1 at hotmail dot com.

“This quitting the party 3rd party candidates crap is just that – crap.”

I agree. I don’t want a third party. I want a second party.

And for that a Constitutional Convention should be instituted.

Of course it’s probably too late for that.

Blub

I don’t know too much about the DLC- I believe that it was formed as a “pro business” dem group.

DLC and NEOCON seem to be used in fairly unfocused ways around here- as an epithet for anything the poster doesn’t like.

I don’t believe that the DLC is pro war although that is said here frequently- and “NEOCON” is properly used for a rather small group of ex liberals turned conservative on FOREIGN policy. I don’t believe that there are properly any “neocon” domestic policies.

It all kind of gets scrambled together though.

carolyn urban @ 146

Do we have to organize and throw out these capitulators and blue dog dems? Damn f*cking right.

Please see my question on “Blue Dogs” in #114.

I’m not blaming the party.. but I am blaming my senators.. DiFi for naivite and Boxer for Arlen Specter Disease (spine turning to jelly midday)

Had lunch the other day after a golf match- the guys were older and talked a little politics. All are goopers. They spoke about KOS- I imagine they had heard about it from Rush or someone- thought it was all foul mouthed commie hippie pinkos..That’s a perception that many will have.

The smearing of the blogosphere is only going to get worse – we need to fight back HARD!

if the “bluedog” dems vote with the repugs – this drama will go on for years…and for this reason impeachment is off the table to repeat what another said here

David — I should know better than to try and shorthand civil rights history with you around. *g* You’ve done more activism in your lifetime than I will ever be able to do…and it’s wonderful how much of the details you have to share from it.

And I really am shutting off the computer now…bye all. See you in the morning!

Ever heard of the term, horizontal violence? It’s what people do when they are in an oppressed group and can’t direclty fight back – so they turn on one another because it’s a relatively safe thing to do.

((((((everyone))))))

I also want to know why the Dems handled/mishandled the fisa amendment the way they did.
I hope progressive bloodhounds with various inside sources can sniff out the true reasons soon. It’s hard to treat the disease without knowing the causes.

juslin @ 156

if the “bluedog” dems vote with the repugs – this drama will go on for years…and for this reason impeachment is off the table to repeat what another said here

OK.. again to my question in #114.. preliminary stats analysis (and I will finish it) makes me pretty sure that the voting records of Blue Dogs vs Dems at large are statistically indistinguishable. In which case, what gives and who cares? We should, according to the actual numbers, be targeting INDIVIDUALS, not the DLC as an organization. It’s easy to demonise people for what they say they are, but, in this case, their actions do not bear out their words:– there seem to be a lot of non-DLCers who consistently vote the wrong way, and a lot of DLCers with better progressive voting records then Dems at large.

Let me tell you what is about to happen. An irreperable schism between moderates and centrists such as most of the people active in the netroots, and the true left, the real DFH’s, is effective immediately. Like myself, most true lefty’s started voting Dem because the excesses of Boosh and Co. scared the bejeebus out of us. We had hoped to stem the blood dimmed tide. That has not occurred. In fact, it has been enabled at every turn.

There is nothing the netroots can do to rope us back in. The “purists” who are so reviled on these pages and others around the “left” blogosphere will now resolutely refuse to be morally implicated along with the blood soaked, filthy collaborators of the Democratic Party.

The real, bottom line difference between us real lefty’s and you in the blogosphere? We are willing to put our bodies on the line, always have, always will. You will never get anything done sitting at your computers. You say you are “fighting” and not giving up. But none of you have ever gotten out of your corners, much less put on the gloves. You say you are not willing to give up after “one battle”, and those not willing to keep on fighting should just get out of the way. NO! Now you all are going to have to get out of the way and let the real fighters get on with what must be done. This “one battle” is the straw that broke the camels back, and if you cannot see that, you soon will.

{{{{Bobby G}}}}

What a wonderful son you must be.
Been there, fella.
Take care, ya’hear?! Yourself included. ;->

selise and pow wow (and others) nailed the apparent predetermined outcome of this whole FISA affair in re Reid and Pelosi, imo.

One thing I noticed, once again, from watching the republicans, Friday especially, is that they are willing to fight like rabid uncivil dogs for anything.. and the Dems never are… This has to change.

(((Siun))) It took about 15 minutes of listening through choppy reception to the presidential candidates Q&A at ykos yesterday for me to come to the same conclusion you hint to above about ykos. I would have loved to meet a few folks but am very relieved my cash and body was not there to support the DLCification of progressives.

LS @ 137

Anyone suppose they needed that NSA wiretapping legalized in a hurry in order to nail the NSA leaker? Was just noticing the language in comment #35.

Well now … that’s just a *bit* freaky, huh?

Thanks Christy and have good flight.

And now for a song. As always Larry Hart put it best –

“There was an old zany who lived in a tub;
He had so many fleabites
He didn’t know where to rub.
He kept looking for an honest man
Said “I’m gonna find him if I can”
If i could meet Diogenes today,
This is what i’d say:
Rub-a-dub-dub

Oh, Diogenes!
Find a man who’s honest!
Oh, Diogenes!
Wrap him up for me
Oh, Diogenes!
Find a man who’s stolid-solid
Hook that fish if he’s in the sea
Hunt him! Trail him!
Catch him! Nail him!
If he is free
Have you got your stick?
Have you got your lantern?
Can you do the trick
And produce him, please!
Catch that fellow!
Ring that bell,
Oh,
Oh!
Oh, Diogenes!”

OK. The brunch has now devolved to people talking only about KOS stuff. Eck.

thansk BLub at 136.
I searched senate for Protect America Act (sic) but couldnt find a vote list of senators.
anyone know where…didnt see one at NYT or LAT.

N=1 @ 150

Whoa:

Everyone take a step back, have a sip – or three – of your beverage of choice and take a moment to gather your thoughts and composure.

Ever heard of the term, horizontal violence? It’s what people do when they are in an oppressed group and can’t direclty fight back – so they turn on one another because it’s a relatively safe thing to do.

I see that happening today around the prog. blogosphere. Please recognize that we’re all on the same team here, and that we should be cutting a lot of slack for people to vent and test the waters for their own feelings and emotions.

Let’s shotgun hugs and compassion instead of ammo. Please – for all or sakes.

And then – take a nap, and get ready for the next steps.

Yikes – just reviewed my comments, and they sound as if I’m lecturing – so sorry -please filter to make them acceptable.

Your comments are always to the good, N=1, specifically these. Your blog ditto.

David Ehrenstein @ 140

The March on Washington was bayard Rustin’s idea, Selise. But he was not allowed to take credit for it because of vice arrests (ie. he “fell in love with a cop”) and Hoover was after MLKs ass to start with.

Civil Rights Laws, BTW were signed by Lyndon Johnson.

JFK was no more in favor of Civil Rights than Hillary Clinton is interested in leaving Iraq.

That’s the way I remember JFK. The Jackie K. and Teddy White version of history is what people think of as the “truth”. If anyone doubts what David says, just listen to the WH tapes of JFK talking to Ross Barnett during the U. Miss. integration crisis.

carolyn urban @ 143

It is really bothering me that so many people are slamming the entire democratic party for this. This quitting the party 3rd party candidates crap is just that – crap. Let’s look at the House vote – disregarding what fault you might find with leadership or party unity – there are 233 Dems – 41 voted with Rethugs.

Do the math. Thats 192 who are on the right page. 5 out of 6.

Is this a debacle? No argument. Do we have to organize and throw out these capitulators and blue dog dems? Damn f*cking right.

But all this sitting around gnashing teeth and feeling sorry doesn’t cut it. Go back to Renee from Ohio’s post @18, and read what the good Doctor from Vermont has to say. We’ve got to get back up, brush ourselves off, and hit it again.

i think it’s much worse than that. the fuckery with the rules was designed to make us *think* the problem is only with those who voted “no”.

i’ve commented previously on this (see here, here and the best one is pow wow’s, here.

peterboy @ 167

thansk BLub at 136.
I searched senate for Protect America Act (sic) but couldnt find a vote list of senators.
anyone know where…didnt see one at NYT or LAT.

ugh.. Senate clerk seems to be running behind schedule

It’ll appear here in due course:
http://www.senate.gov/legislat….._110_1.htm

David you have some powerful arguments and so does Christy. It sounds as if you have been around a fair amount of time participating, and have some real reasons for feeling discouraged.

But what if… just what if more Americans actually participated in this “supposed” democracy and were far more vigilant and applied pressure on our representatives. What if instead of around 6 million Americans (nationwide) who marched against the invasion, 25 million had marched. Would they have still invaded?

I think Christy and many other Firedoglakers truely believe in truth and justice and are obviously committed. Although the reality on the ground that many of us have witnessed does not leave one terribly hopeful.

So what to do? Leave the country, roll over and play dead or stay and push as hard as we can to tame the beast from the inside?

juslin @ 124

i can understand david e’s feeling – i am also angry – and looking for something concrete to do – the dems for some reason keep giving bushco all that he wants….daring the dems to try and stand up to him – they dont!! its frustrating to say the least

Shared anger & frustration all over. That’s a given.

Knock knock — new thread

thanks one and all. fly safely Christy and bless you all.

BobbyG@122:
Years ago a friend was a nurse who worked in a nursing home. One morning the staff discovered that a nocturnal wandering klepto resident had gone into all the rooms & taken everyone’s dentures. (This was before dentures had one’s name put on them.) My friend said that was one hilarious & frustrating morning trying to figure out which denture belonged to which resident.

I am getting a group of firepups together to meet with Nancy Make Nice or her staff. I want to go armed with facts, passion and common sense. Going to her office in SF is my goal. I need help and people. Also, someone who lives in her district is important. It is easier to get into a representative’s office with a constituent. Anyone who is interested please go to my facebook page.

carolyn urban @ 145

It is really bothering me that so many people are slamming the entire democratic party for this. This quitting the party 3rd party candidates crap is just that – crap. Let’s look at the House vote – disregarding what fault you might find with leadership or party unity – there are 233 Dems – 41 voted with Rethugs.

Do the math. Thats 192 who are on the right page. 5 out of 6.

Is this a debacle? No argument. Do we have to organize and throw out these capitulators and blue dog dems? Damn f*cking right.

But all this sitting around gnashing teeth and feeling sorry doesn’t cut it. Go back to Renee from Ohio’s post @18, and read what the good Doctor from Vermont has to say. We’ve got to get back up, brush ourselves off, and hit it again.

Amen!

The FISA votes show that for Pelosi, Reid, and many Democrats it is still business as usual. Here we have a deeply unpopular as well as the most criminally corrupt and incompetent Administration in our history and at a moment’s notice the Democratic controlled Congress rolled over and played dead for it.

What is going on with the Democratic party? When they were in the minority, they said they couldn’t oppose any of excesses of Bush and the Republicans because they would look weak. This made them look even weaker.

Now that Democrats are in the majority, we are told they can’t oppose Bush because they don’t have veto proof majorities.

But let’s face it even if they had veto proof majorities now their excuse would be that they couldn’t get all their members to vote to override. As it is, they are waiting until January 2009 and a Democratic President before they act.

In other words, the Democrats demand all of the levers of power before they can act.

Yet the Republicans even in the minority have no such problems. So again my question what is it about the Democrats?

The November elections were about getting us out of Iraq. We’re still there. Nothing has been done except to kick a debate about it to next month, nearly 11 months after the 2006 elections. And that’s the debate, not any real action. FISA? The same thing, it will be February 2009 before they take it up the debate again (but not necessarily any action).

The reason that Democrats look so lame is because they are so lame. Pelosi and Reid have to bear a lot of the responsibility for this. Pelosi can boast about how many bills the House has passed, but the reality check is how many of them have become laws. Meanwhile the Bush Administration continues its attacks on the Constitution.

The simple fact of the matter is that we can elect as many Democrats as we want but what’s the point if they refuse to act?

“Blue Dog Dems”

Aren’t these usually dems who live in Red States or districts? They vote with us most of the time. If ya throw em out- won’t ya get goopers to replace em? That’s what I suspect.

anyone down for the answer demo in september? just asking – imo bodies need to be in the streets – my arthritic knees included ….i guess i’m just a tad peeved with dem setbacks….the majority who voted for this measure has put the country in jeopardy AFAIAC…….

carolyn urban @ 147

Go back to Renee from Ohio’s post @18, and read what the good Doctor from Vermont has to say.

p.s. i heard dean’s speech via the webcast. it was inspiring. one thing he said that really stood out for me was about how we put our country ahead of our party.

it’s a problem the dem leadership in congress isn’t doing that.

p.p.s. and trying to be accurate about the problem in no way implies giving up.

i think it’s much worse than that. the fuckery with the rules was designed to make us *think* the problem is only with those who voted “no”.

i’ve commented previously on this (see here, here and the best one is pow wow’s, here.

thanks for links to commments Selise. I missed the news and all the comments yesterday due to bit of an family emergency. I don’t have blinkers on in regard to the party. I’ve been extrememly skeptical of Harry Reid for awhile. Pelosi – I don’t know. I’m not sure what to think. If she did sell out then she’s got to go.

I just want us to remember that we’ve got some good elected people we can count on. I’m thinking Leahy, Feingold, Whitehouse, Kennedy, and others. And then there’s Howard Dean. There’s Edwards. There’s Gore.

N=1 150

Thanks! btw, ethologists have their own jargon for it also: “Redirection”.

Will.now.back.off. *salutes* ;->

We need better Democratic politicians. Various factors have caused a hollowing out of the party, and we are now left with too many Republican Lites and too many corporate whores in the party for us to accomplish much.

Changing the party will take several election cycles. We got a start on that last November, but we clearly have a long way to go. I just hope we enough time to do that, before things get so bad they cannot be reversed. But I hope it is clear to everyone now that it isn’t enough just to elect Democrats. We have to elect better Democrats than we have today.

Perhaps a rating system could be devised that measured support for core American values: rule of law, balance & separation of powers, respect for the constitution, openness and transparency of government, etc. I’m envisioning something like what “special interests” groups do today to rate congresscritters. If done right such a rating system should be non-partisan (it should also count cloture votes, not just votes on the actual bill or nomination).

Then we use the system to target politicians for replacement. Right now (for me at least) the hostility is very diffuse. Different Dems backstab the country on different issues. I’d find it helpful for someone to tally up a representative’s record across the issue. Is Tauscher a backstabbing corporate whore, or is she a reasonable rep who just needs some encouragement & oversight?

juslin @ 181

anyone down for the answer demo in september? just asking – imo bodies need to be in the streets – my arthritic knees included ….i guess i’m just a tad peeved with dem setbacks….the majority who voted for this measure has put the country in jeopardy AFAIAC…….

if my health permits, i will be there in september – probably for the “Iraq Moratorium Day“ and in october for the imf-world bank meetings.

eCAHNomics @ 70

Boy did Iget EPU’d. I repeat myself from downstairs.

Some advice plz. My city rep, where I currently vote, is Carolyn Maloney. My country rep, Maurice Hinchey, is generally a prince of a man. I call him from time to time & have attended fund raisers that he sponsors for others (he seems reasonably secure in his own job) but I figure concentrate my energies where they are more needed.

So here’s what I’m thinking, and being new to the political process, would appreciate feedback.

Maloney’s votes are generally OK, but she seems nebbishy to me. Her website issues revolve around consumer credit, identity theft, and more local matters.

Would it be worthwhile to attend a meeting during August (assuming she’s having one), introduce myself, and advance the idea that since she’s on the right side, could she take a more active role in encouraging other Ds (Blue Dog, or whoever else skates too close to the line) to come over to the right side.

Several years agoI made a New Years resolution to stop getting involved in lost causes (broke it on Jan 3). If Maloney really is a nebbish, I’d be wasting my breath, and I would have no ability to know whether she acts on my urging. She’s in her 8th term, is probably a lock to stay there until death-do-us-part. So she’d have no problem coasting.

Even if you don’t have an immediate and direct effect. If you can develope a relationship with your local representative, then at leats they get to hear something fromoutside the bubble

carolyn urban @ 147

It is really bothering me that so many people are slamming the entire democratic party for this. This quitting the party 3rd party candidates crap is just that – crap. Let’s look at the House vote – disregarding what fault you might find with leadership or party unity – there are 233 Dems – 41 voted with Rethugs.

Do the math. Thats 192 who are on the right page. 5 out of 6.

Is this a debacle? No argument. Do we have to organize and throw out these capitulators and blue dog dems? Damn f*cking right.

But all this sitting around gnashing teeth and feeling sorry doesn’t cut it. Go back to Renee from Ohio’s post @18, and read what the good Doctor from Vermont has to say. We’ve got to get back up, brush ourselves off, and hit it again.

Hugh (@179):

did you read what Carolyn said? it’s important.

there’s nothing that Karl and his minions would like better than for us to get down on the Democrats. we need to build on the 192 Democrats that voted the right way. we need to challenge the 41 and put good people up against them where it’s smart to do so.

fahrender @ 188

carolyn urban @ 147

It is really bothering me that so many people are slamming the entire democratic party for this. This quitting the party 3rd party candidates crap is just that – crap. Let’s look at the House vote – disregarding what fault you might find with leadership or party unity – there are 233 Dems – 41 voted with Rethugs.

Do the math. Thats 192 who are on the right page. 5 out of 6.

Is this a debacle? No argument. Do we have to organize and throw out these capitulators and blue dog dems? Damn f*cking right.

But all this sitting around gnashing teeth and feeling sorry doesn’t cut it. Go back to Renee from Ohio’s post @18, and read what the good Doctor from Vermont has to say. We’ve got to get back up, brush ourselves off, and hit it again.

Hugh (@179):

did you read what Carolyn said? it’s important.

there’s nothing that Karl and his minions would like better than for us to get down on the Democrats. we need to build on the 192 Democrats that voted the right way. we need to challenge the 41 and put good people up against them where it’s smart to do so.

We need to remember that the leaders of the dems in the house were complicit in letting this pass with a simple majority.

Karl does have a perpetual republic majority due to the mindset of the dems.

carolyn urban @ 183

i think it’s much worse than that. the fuckery with the rules was designed to make us *think* the problem is only with those who voted “no”.

i’ve commented previously on this (see here, here and the best one is pow wow’s, here.

thanks for links to commments Selise. I missed the news and all the comments yesterday due to bit of an family emergency. I don’t have blinkers on in regard to the party. I’ve been extrememly skeptical of Harry Reid for awhile. Pelosi – I don’t know. I’m not sure what to think. If she did sell out then she’s got to go.

I just want us to remember that we’ve got some good elected people we can count on. I’m thinking Leahy, Feingold, Whitehouse, Kennedy, and others. And then there’s Howard Dean. There’s Edwards. There’s Gore.

i hope your family is ok now. that is certainly more important that watching c-span all day and trying to figure out all the details of what was going on. (yeah, i had a bad day – starting friday with the senate fisa vote, and ending last night with the house fisa vote)

i’m actually not arguing for getting rid of speaker pelosi – but i do want to call her out publically when she screws up (which i think she’s been doing a lot of lately)… i’m more interested in trying to ask for better behaviour.

and maybe i’m too cynical – but i don’t count on any politician. that doesn’t mean i won’t ask for help, and it doesn’t mean that i don’t know i’m much more likely to get it from some pols and not from others. i just don’t see it as black hats and white hats… or maybe lots of black and grey and not so much white?

when i am critical of some dems it doesn’t mean i can’t tell the difference between them and, say, lieberman. just trying to figure out what’s going on – and trying to be as skeptical and questioning of my own pols, as i want Rs to be of theirs.

“So what to do? Leave the country, roll over and play dead or stay and push as hard as we can to tame the beast from the inside?”

You mean climb inside the beast’s mouth the better to “reason” with it?

Lumping all office-holders into the same “BAD” basket, even during careless speech, leads all to easily into “Throw ALL the bums out” -sorta thinking, as in “baby out with the bathwater” e.g., 3rd party efforts which will only serve to split our forces.

capice?

all stoopid slogans aside, this could lead to serious flaws in our move fwd, imho.
hence my busted gasket up-thread…

Adie @ 192

Lumping all office-holders into the same “BAD” basket, even during careless speech, leads all too easily into “Throw ALL the bums out” -sorta thinking, as in “baby out with the bathwater” e.g., 3rd party efforts which will only serve to split our forces.

capice?

all stoopid slogans aside, this could lead to serious flaws in our move fwd, imho.
hence my busted gasket up-thread…

dang – had to edit – sorry…

Marie Roget @ 168

N=1 @ 150

Whoa:

Everyone take a step back, have a sip – or three – of your beverage of choice and take a moment to gather your thoughts and composure.

Ever heard of the term, horizontal violence? It’s what people do when they are in an oppressed group and can’t direclty fight back – so they turn on one another because it’s a relatively safe thing to do.

I see that happening today around the prog. blogosphere. Please recognize that we’re all on the same team here, and that we should be cutting a lot of slack for people to vent and test the waters for their own feelings and emotions.

Let’s shotgun hugs and compassion instead of ammo. Please – for all or sakes.

And then – take a nap, and get ready for the next steps.

Yikes – just reviewed my comments, and they sound as if I’m lecturing – so sorry -please filter to make them acceptable.

Your comments are always to the good, N=1, specifically these. Your blog ditto.

Thanks so much, Marie Roget! Wow! I’m blushing! (and late, as usual)

fahrender @ 188

Hugh (@179):

did you read what Carolyn said? it’s important.

there’s nothing that Karl and his minions would like better than for us to get down on the Democrats. we need to build on the 192 Democrats that voted the right way. we need to challenge the 41 and put good people up against them where it’s smart to do so.

Yes, but as selise and pow wow have pointed out, the House vote was rigged. Pelosi structured the vote on the “Democratic” alternative so that it would not pass without a 2/3 majority. She then put up the Senate/Republican version knowing that enough Democrats would defect and vote with the Republicans to ensure its passage with a simple majority. This turned it into a meaningless “free” vote.

All this is similar to the Democrats in the Senate who voted for cloture on the Alito nomination but then voted “no” on the confirmation vote. It was the first vote that mattered. The second was just for show.

It is the result I am interested in. I could care less how 192 Democrats voted on a done deal. The reality is that Pelosi could have delayed a vote until September if she had wanted to or pushed the Democratic version and held the Republican one. She and the Democrats didn’t and decided instead to give away the store. I am not impressed.

Adie @ 184

N=1 150

Thanks! btw, ethologists have their own jargon for it also: “Redirection”.

Will.now.back.off. *salutes* ;->

Really? Where could I learn more about that? (eagerly looking around in my ‘net notes). Are you an ethologist, by any chance?

Adie @ 192

Lumping all office-holders into the same “BAD” basket, even during careless speech, leads all to easily into “Throw ALL the bums out” -sorta thinking, as in “baby out with the bathwater” e.g., 3rd party efforts which will only serve to split our forces.

capice?

all stoopid slogans aside, this could lead to serious flaws in our move fwd, imho.
hence my busted gasket up-thread…

the problem isn’t how a couple of people on this blog reacted. the problem is what caused the reaction. and that reaction is happening all over the country.

if the dems don’t want a third party challenge – then they have to stop courting it. if the dems acted with any principles and backbone – there would not a be a risk from third party candidates, no matter who ran. because no one would want to vote third party. the problem is the dems are making people want to vote for someone else.

berating people for being pissed off at the dems is not going to win you votes. if you want people to vote for dems you’ve got to give them a reason to. if you don’t believe me – remember when you’ve gone canvassing. how many votes can you get by berating people vs listening and responding to their real concerns?

jonerik @ 116

I’m as disappointed and unhappy as anyone with this sellout by the Democrats, especially my own Senator, Amy Klobuchar. But there are two good reasons not to give in to total despair. First, Bush may veto this legislation. And it is only good for six months in any event. Either way, there will be another chance to hammer the jellyfish with some information about what they gave away here.

Second, the fact Bush is trying to get this passed at all means he has capitulated on his “unitary executive theory”. By adopting this flawed bill, Congress has now ensnared Bush in a process which he cannot back out on. Congressional investigation into the Gonzalez handling of the approval of the surveillance program from Ashcroft in 2004 becomes highly relevant to this. Unitary executive and executive privilege cannot be invoked to stop legitimate Congressional investigations in an area where they are considering legislation.

Of course, that still assumes these people in Congress have any spine or principles. We’re still waiting for the evidence of that.

Are you serious? I reach the opposite conclusion: Now that the Dems are complicit in shredding the Constitution, they can’t hold Abu accountable for doing the same. What ‘legitimate Congressional investigations’ can they have now, except to investigate where they lost their own brains? No need for any more hearings; they were a joke anyway. They have already said that Abu won’t be charged with perjury. No impeachment for him, no censure, just more power.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 89

David at 80 — You want to roll over and just hand things over to Bush and his ilk? That’s your choice. I choose to fight the battles that I can and try and win them. That’s my choice. I’ll be damned if I’m ceding ground to the asshats — it took MLK and the civil rights movement more than thirteen years to make any headway. We cannot simply roll over in the face of adversity — and I refuse to do so because things look bleak in the moment.

That is cowardly, and my spine is far too stiff and I am far to pissed to let them win the whole of the war over one battle. No fucking way.

Summer soldiers and fair weather patriots expect it to be easy and expect to win at the beginning.

The rest of us have always known it was going to be a long slow slog and that gains would come slowly and with great effort.

The progress in the last 2 years is not be ignored just because we didn’t get everything we want right off the bat

looseheadprop @ 199 -

i don’t think david is any “Summer soldiers and fair weather patriot”.

selise @ 197

Adie @ 192

Lumping all office-holders into the same “BAD” basket, even during careless speech, leads all to easily into “Throw ALL the bums out” -sorta thinking, as in “baby out with the bathwater” e.g., 3rd party efforts which will only serve to split our forces.

capice?

all stoopid slogans aside, this could lead to serious flaws in our move fwd, imho.
hence my busted gasket up-thread…

the problem isn’t how a couple of people on this blog reacted. the problem is what caused the reaction. and that reaction is happening all over the country.

if the dems don’t want a third party challenge – then they have to stop courting it. if the dems acted with any principles and backbone – there would not a be a risk from third party candidates, no matter who ran. because no one would want to vote third party. the problem is the dems are making people want to vote for someone else.

berating people for being pissed off at the dems is not going to win you votes. if you want people to vote for dems you’ve got to give them a reason to. if you don’t believe me – remember when you’ve gone canvassing. how many votes can you get by berating people vs listening and responding to their real concerns?

Lumping all office-holders into the same “BAD” basket

– THAT is what bothers me. Not people being p.o.’d. I’m as furious as anyone else here at the current Dem. leadership. I’m disgusted with the repugs. But I’m beyond-that feeURious with those Dems. who backed away from their responsibility as office-holders, for putting their own careers and personal comfort, whatever, above their sworn DUTY and OATH to uphold the principles on which this nation was founded. How DARE they?!
I can’t find anything you’ve said here to disagree with…

…Except maybe to risk harping unduly on this one point:

Every time we lump all officeholders into the same basket as wrong-doers, irrespective of whether they have done wrong or not, we are playing a tune right out of rover’s talking-point songbook of excuses entitled, “Everybody Does It.”

I’m simply trying to say, NO. They DON’T ALL do it!

Deep down, don’t you and I agree, to a broad degree? Huh? I truly think we’re both very very angry, but both on the same side.

And yes, I meet up regularly with angry people, and I don’t back away. I’m trying to work for pretty much the same thing as everyone else here.

{{{{{peace}}}}}

sangemon @ 23:

As I said before in an earlier thread, they’re looking at a big win in 2008 and want to keep the power for when they get it.

They might want to remember that they’re driving away a lot of voters with these cowardly moves.

peterboy @ 39:

I had a call from the DCCC last sunday and for 20 minutes basically told this guy off…and he kept coming back syaing — we dont have the votes.

“Numbers” like some of the ones we’ve just witnessed, we don’t need more of. Ask him how many of the Blue Dogs were recipients of DCCC money. And look what we “got” for that!

We can create our own good “numbers” by giving directly through ActBlue. The DCCC can bite its own tail.

N=1 @ 196

Adie @ 184

N=1 150

Thanks! btw, ethologists have their own jargon for it also: “Redirection”.

Will.now.back.off. *salutes* ;->

Really? Where could I learn more about that? (eagerly looking around in my ‘net notes). Are you an ethologist, by any chance?

By training back in the “dark ages” (’60s), yes. Mostly by practical experience since – animal training & similar pursuits such as being school-board member & dealing with cranky voters & politicians since then, heh. Hubby was prof. in same 30 years before his recent retirement.

Think of ethology as study of behavior from a biologist’s point of view – no holds barred, e.g., humans included, ecology, physiology, neurology, evolution, complexities of nature vs. nurture… Pach & I could have some fun conversations if we chose to, heh.

Easiest, most user-friendly way to have a delightful read in the process might be to return to some of the books for non-pros, written by 2 of the founders of ethology, Niko Tinbergen (Herring Gull’s World),Dethier (To Know A Fly) and the famous Konrad Lorenz (worked & taught extensively, & did much work with Greylag Geese). More recently, books by Desmond Morris (human, horse, dog, cat, etc etc behavior – very easy for non-pros to understand). The field has expanded and extended far beyond the work of these people, but they’d be a good intro. even now. Try browsing thru these names on Amazon, or in library.
sorry. gotta go. outdoor concert in the rain tonight. glad for the rain but, oogh… see ya later. sure appreciate your various comments ;->

N=1

silly me *blush*

Ethology has a nice blurb in wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethology

Let’s send them all a pair of diapers with the words

“Terrorist protection panties” and thank them for the increased surveillance.

Send the first hundred pairs to Kit Bond:
Kansas City Office:
911 Main St., Suite 2224
Kansas City, MO 64105

(816)471-7141 St. Louis Office:
7700 Bonhomme, #615
St. Louis, MO 63105
(314)725-4484

Cape Girardeau Office:
Federal Building, Rm. 140
339 Broadway
Cape Girardeau, MO 63701

(573)334-7044 Springfield Office:
300 S. Jefferson, Suite 401
Springfield, MO 65806
(417)864-8258

Columbia Office:
1001 Cherry Street, Suite 204
Columbia, MO 65201
(573) 442-8151

Just so “he can sleep at night.”

Send them to Mitch McConnell, Boehner, Feinstein and every one of them Blue Dog pant wetters.

Well, good luck in “punishing” the blue dogs. Amy Klobuchar rolled over any opposition she had to get elected. She won’t be up for re-election until 2012. In Minnesota, the caucus system process for nomonating and challenging candidates is broken down.

There are only two explanations: sheer stupidity or “in the bag”. I’ve met some DC staffers, so I can’t really rule out the first.

it seems increasingly clear that this web site is propaganda from the ministry of truth…pretend to be pushing for real reform whilst all the while encouraging no real reform of any kind…slick and quite insidious: only Rove could have figured this out…
Digby a superstar???
What a joke. Digby is either too stoopid to understand what keeps transpiring in the halls of congress or is complicit in some very nefarious way

[Mod Note; and the link to your website is where?]

Mr. Larry @ 198

jonerik @ 116

I’m as disappointed and unhappy as anyone with this sellout by the Democrats, especially my own Senator, Amy Klobuchar. But there are two good reasons not to give in to total despair. First, Bush may veto this legislation. And it is only good for six months in any event. Either way, there will be another chance to hammer the jellyfish with some information about what they gave away here.

Second, the fact Bush is trying to get this passed at all means he has capitulated on his “unitary executive theory”. By adopting this flawed bill, Congress has now ensnared Bush in a process which he cannot back out on. Congressional investigation into the Gonzalez handling of the approval of the surveillance program from Ashcroft in 2004 becomes highly relevant to this. Unitary executive and executive privilege cannot be invoked to stop legitimate Congressional investigations in an area where they are considering legislation.

Of course, that still assumes these people in Congress have any spine or principles. We’re still waiting for the evidence of that.

Are you serious? I reach the opposite conclusion: Now that the Dems are complicit in shredding the Constitution, they can’t hold Abu accountable for doing the same. What ‘legitimate Congressional investigations’ can they have now, except to investigate where they lost their own brains? No need for any more hearings; they were a joke anyway. They have already said that Abu won’t be charged with perjury. No impeachment for him, no censure, just more power.

I’m trying to hold out some hope that the Dems have not completely sold out. Otherwise any more activism is futile anyway. Whether the Bill necessarily “shreds the Constitution” as you say is not prima facie true. FISA in 1978 was the first time Congress asserted control in the area of Fourth Amendment protections in the area of eavedropping in the area of foreign relations. There is some unfortunate lower court language that says the Fourth Amendment does not apply in this area. That is where this unitary executive concept is drawing some power. The other courts more recently have held that US citizens don’t have standing to challenge Bush’s eavesdropping programs unless they have proof they have actually been wiretapped.

The biggest problem i see with this new bill is how you enforce it because it is not a self enforcing law. I don’t trust Bush not to put into effect a surveillance program which snoops on US citizens and uses this law as a pretext to avoid accountability. That’s different from being patently unconstitutional. I am as dismayed as you are that the people in Congress would put this amount of trust in this President. But I’m willing to give them the benefit of some doubt that they might be able to use this and work toward some greater end in six months. Anyway, if Bush vetos this bill, it’s all moot anyway. And maybe they know he will.

Richmond @ 24

dead last @ 10

This reminds me of a friend who recently signed blank mortgage documents because the broker told her it was necessary. She had not yet been told the interest rate and the takeout had been increased by $20,000 to cover the interest rate buydown that the $8000 loan fee wasn’t going to cover.

She felt studpid and trapped and helpless.
…

That should be illegal

…

Do we know of anybody in Congress who would put forward some legislation to make it illegal?

jonerik @ 116

I’m as disappointed and unhappy as anyone with this sellout by the Democrats, especially my own Senator, Amy Klobuchar. …

I wonder if she was blackmailed into it to get funds for bridge rebuilding.

Richmond @ 118

Blub @ 103

Anybody know why Boxer didn’t vote on FISA? Was she defering to DiFi/saving face or did she have a legitimate reason for missing the vote Friday.

She and Kerry were out windsurfing. All they needed was one more vote. (They together made sure it wouldn’t come from them). Fix was on.

This isn’t true. The Bush needed 60 votes in the Senate. He got them.

If 41 Democrats had not even shown up the vote would have lost.

So the absences were essentially “No” votes. It would have been “nice” to have these Senators up there in debate…and pewrhaps they could have been useful in bringing back one Senator to either vote “No” or not vote.

If one of the ten “Traitors to our Constitution” had abstained, not shown up, or had a seizure…the bill would have gone down to defeat.

Boxer or Kerry or Delahunt not showing up were equivalent to “NO” votes, people!

LS @ 137

Anyone suppose they needed that NSA wiretapping legalized in a hurry in order to nail the NSA leaker? Was just noticing the language in comment #35.

Interesting point…they DID get his laptops and computers. So if the FISA Court had determined such intercepts were illegal, they would have needed Congress to religitimize the very computer surveillance that allowed Congress to know about the illegal “black program”.

It also means that all “sources” for the Mainstream Media have ZERO, Zilch, Nada…
Confidentiality!

To the WashPo. and NYTimes- All your squealing about a “Journalist-Source” Privilege means shite because of this President. You can’t even keep your own email out of the Feds hands anymore!

Stop it, indeed.

MarkH @ 212

jonerik @ 116

I’m as disappointed and unhappy as anyone with this sellout by the Democrats, especially my own Senator, Amy Klobuchar. …

I wonder if she was blackmailed into it to get funds for bridge rebuilding.

I think there was a lot of blackmailing going on.